I'm playing a ranger that intends on going Swarmkeeper when he hits 3rd, but have his swarm be ravens, and during the course of his first level, my DM gave him a raven buddy that he found. Second level and he's now got a second raven, although this one can't fly as his flight wings were cut, so he's waiting for them to grow out. Mechanically, they're just my ranger's friends, although he can occasionally send the flying one off to get someone's attention or do brief scouting. But once he hits 3rd and takes his archetype, he is primed to suddenly finding that his care for his two ravens have gotten the attention of a whole swarm that is willing to listen to him and follow his commands. It's a pretty cool build up.
Uncanny seeing your idea. Last year in a Curse of Strahd campaign I played a swarmkeeper with a Fae, 9-eyed Raven. The raven was able to split into multiple smaller corvids, up to 9 1-eyed birds, becoming the swarm.
You have put into words things that have bugged me but couldn't put my finger on what/why. I'm currently 12 sessions into my first campaign as DM and when the PCs hit level 3 I had to come up with some reason for them to get their sub classes. One tapped into a repressed memory of their tutor, another has a vision from a God, and the other slipped into the Fey realm. It was mainly for my sanity as for why they would suddenly have these new things, and it's lead to new story paths I couldn't have dreamed of when we started. However, that was a lot of work on my part, I like the idea of sharing that load with the players. Thanks again DC!
This reminds me of when I was a Bloodhunter/Warlock Asmair my Mom taught me the ways of the Bloodhunter and my Dad was a Warlock from a family of Warlocks. I had a bond with my lance called Shango( an African thunder and fire god). I just leveled up to level 5 overall( I don't remember the exact level of which class), but I could choose a feat and I choose Awaken Spark. My DM seen that and told I couldn't it's full capability all at once. So he made a wonderful arc where I went to a temple based around my Asmair background and gave it a African flavor. So it set me up to not only made for me to get the feat, but also have an arc for me to earn every part of that feat.
My DM and I had a conversation when I hit 4th level bard on my bardlock about what feat she wanted. The one that I chose would have given her 3 uses (per her proficiency bonus) each long rest. This seemed too powerful to me as a player and I told him that I thought my character should have to use it a few times before she can get up to 3 uses per long rest. He agreed. So this is a super interesting video to me.
Battle Smith Artificer, Beastmaster and Drakewarden Ranger all have great roleplay potential because of their companion. The Drakewarden is basically a Pokemon trainer so maybe you have to go out and do something to make your companion "evolve".
Systems like this are all about buy in. I'm not sure if this is something I'd want to enforce so much as something I'd want to encourage players to think about. I do like the idea of using level up perks as the 'carrot' to push people to think ahead and plan for their future levels (I gave a future eldritch knight a custom cantrip). Can't imagine forcing a warlock to use one of their precious spell choices on charm person in order to get dominate, though. :P
I tell my players to be thinking about their next level so that if they level up mid session, you're ready. I also like to give people a chance to do the next level of power if they do a successful roll.
One of the things I like to do is allow players to use an interact object action to command another party member, and that party member gets advantage on the action if it fits the command.
This encourages team based strategies, and allows players to work together. This also allows players to use their interact objects action more frequently. I even added a feat which would allow them to give multiple commands at once which was fun because I had a paladin player who went fully defensive support mode.
It's interesting... and it adds something (gradual increase in abilities) that has never been in level-based ttrpgs. I had a DM try to pull this on me without introducing it at a session 0 though, my Rogue was about to hit 3rd level, and I always knew I wanted to go Arcane Trickster, so I started talking to him about what I could do with my Familiar that I was going to get... and he was saying "it doesn't make sense for [my character] to learn magic 'out of nowhere' ", which I objectively agree to. .... but... if you want me to RP learning magic over time, and building up to it, then I need to know in advance.
Agreed, this is a good point. Buy-in during Session 0, or at least one level of "grace" after mid-game implementation. The Fighter (Battlemaster)/Rogue "ranger wannabe" in my campaign surprised me at 6th level by going Arcane Trickster - I thought he was going Scout. So we talked about where he thought his powers were going to come from, and what spells he wanted, and we reflavored them to tie into his backstory a little better (more "psionic" than "arcane", and somewhat boosted by the mysterious heirloom artifact), and an "awakening event" that triggered their manifestation. Half his spells are reflavored as advanced martial techniques instead, while the others are blossoming TK and clairvoyance... And now we've talked about what his plans are for 7th and 8th level, so he can "work on it" during play. The pure Rogue has been gradually shifting from melee "gun & rapier" to a sniper, and as such as been working on gaining the Tasha class-option power of Steady Aim. (Tasha's came out In during the game.) At this level up (leveling is slow my game), she has mastered the ability, and can use it from now on. And at 8th, with she takes Sharpshooter (with XBE, ugh!!), there will have been three full levels of lead up to it. Not just suddenly "Oh by the way, I now shoot through walls."
This really encourages players to role play into their upcoming features and I absolutely LOVE the idea. I've used something similar in the past and have even encouraged players to design their own "level-up features" if they wanted something other than (but not OP) their class or sub-class features. It sometimes requires some collaboration, but has definitely been worth the effort with those players looking to be truly imersed into the experience.
I love this! I’m going to be running a low level adventure for my group in the next few months and I’ll definitely be bringing this up at session zero! Keep up the good work!
Why can't we just clone you so we can all have a dungeon coach for our own games :c You always sound so passionate and invested into what is going on in .. what is basically still your hobby. It is crazy and with a few not so great experiences in the past I just really wish I could find someone to run a game with so much heart, the setting wouldn't even matter so much, it's so easy to fall in love with something another person is already so passionate about.
My only issue with the specific example you gave (Charm Person evolving into Dominate Person as a Warlock) is that having played a Warlock from 1 to 20 I got SO few spells known that I always went out of my way to never have spells that in any way worked like other spells that I had. So if I had 1 single target control type spell, that is the ONLY single target control spell I would ever take. The Spells Known restrictions for a Warlock is so intense for that class I don't see how that could work.
I also like the idea of a character leveling up (or at least getting a next level ability) during combat; I think it's simpler to default to doing it after a battle because you might calculate exp or if they have to choose a spell or something, it's a little less straightforward, but if it's a given what ability a character gets upon leveling up, looking for narratively appropriate moments in battle to do this (and maybe depending on a roll too) would be something fun to implement every now and again. This also fits more in with the fiction that we're used to; characters don't usually get some new special ability after they've already won a battle, but usually at some dramatic moment during the fight.
I love how this can give greater connection to the type of spellcaster the player is. A wizard might be testing out magical output against buoyancy to learn fly, while a sorcerer dreams of the wingbeats of dragon ancestors each night. It would also work well for altering effects. Maybe a storm herald barbarian player wants to test themselves within a toxic environment to reshape their desert fire damage into poison. Or it could be how they recycle a bad feat into one that works better for them.
What if you build a campaign where the characters don't really get levels put instead get abilities and features from classes as they do things that thematically fit! Great video! My brain is racing with all the possibilities!
@@sleepinggiant4062 Sounds like Skyrim... ;-) Regardless, it *doesn't* sound like D&D. I'd suggest playing a different system rather than rebuild the guts of 5e.
Two things. 1. I do this already when multiclassing, I want multiclassing to be organic and story based. 2. I would ABSOUTLY REFUSE any DM that FORCED such a decision on an individual player.
Same, I do that with multiclassing and i if someone wanted to what was in this video i would be completely ok with it. I wouldn't push it on them though. If they don't want to do it, I'm not going to push it.
Happy sunday! Definitely using this if my players are cool with it. The idea of spells being made in character first then gained officially on lvl up makes all play together more. To interact more. To tell a more cooperative story together. So hype!
Strikes me as a good way to waste game time to be honest. A wizard hitting level 5 and picking up counterspell and fireball is implied to have been working on those spells in his downtime/before bed. His "level up" is simply when he acquired sufficient knowledge/power to actually cast those spells regularly. Now instead of it simply being implied, you're forcing him to commit to those spells early (hope he doesn't' change his mind!), and waste game time by having the player say, "Oh, before bed, my wizard spends 20 minutes working on his formula for fireball and another 20 minutes working on his formula for counterspell." Such epic roleplay... Do we really need to spend time every day having him say that? Is that value added to the game? In addition it leads to logical questions that detract from the level up. RAW the spells are simply added to the spell book, there's no requirement to expend the ink/paper that can cost serious gold. So taken to extremes this system can cost your player money while adding nothing of value.
@@MJ-jd7rs it's a game. A game ran mostly by friends. If you or anyone doesn't like certain homebrew. You don't have to use it. I understand where you're coming from. But asking players to think ahead and take time outside the game to to add scenes isn't asking alot. Your wizard saying I'm working on spell formulas. Is plenty. It's alot more than many players do. Dms do this all this times with lots of npcs, towns, shops, maps, history, ect. But most players just want to level up and say it was off screen. Alot of dnd is filler. But if you can make these scenes really short it still helps dms interact with your character. It's not all or nothing. It's a dial from 0-10. Do what you like. All that is important is the fun. If it's not fun stop.
I love this. There's an element of Skyrim (having to use skills/abilities/etc. for them to improve) and also of preaching collaboration and a living world. Players making character choices that go with the story, DMs making story choices that go with their players and their characters. And also - it's a fine line - as you mentioned in the solutions. Looking ahead is good. Having your entire character planned out from level 1-20, not so much. It's almost like you need to leave room in your character and get to know them in order to make the best choices based on the story and to "yes, and" the games.
I've done this greatness, as a player I asked my DM if my astral self Monk could work towards getting their subclass features. So levels 3 and 4 I didn't have a subclass. The DM would foreshadow the characters astral arms whenever the character took patient defense. So, naturally, the character took patient defense more and more. Then in a story appropriate moment their arms manifested, it was great. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was cool :)
I'm really happy I'm not the only person who watched Colville's video and thought about the pros and cons of his ideas. Thank you Dungeon Coach for doing this video. I actually talked to my players about the card system and talked about my own problems with the "video game" ness of this idea. However I did like thinking more about well defined goals. Inspired by the DC, I've instituted Perks into leveling along with a lot of other homebrew stuff and that has helped my players become much more engaged. Anyway, I would love to hear more talk about rewards for players because money and magic items/tattoos just doesn't cut it.
Ive had an idea 💡 Spell Chains ought to be a thing; advancing from the Spark Cantrip to Touch of Combustion, to Fire Sneeze or Scorching Ray, all the way up to FIREBALL! And Elemental Touch to Elemental Aura, etc. As the Wizard gains levels, they learn 3+INT in new spells (PF). In this system, An INT +4 Wizard can use the 7 "spell points", to either learn a new spell (as normal), or improve on a preexisting spell, which opens up the preexisting spell slot- when Touch of Combustion advances into Scorching Ray, you get to learn 1 new 1st level spell to replace Touch of Combustion. And you can always prepare Scorching Ray in a 1st level spell slot to "retro cast" Touch of Combuation. This way, the Wizard truly is the "tool box" of magic. Of course, I would have my players roleplay these changes to their characters, as is mentioned in the video.
Nice. But you need to do it for other classes to. Like Fighter or Barbarian. When they will sparing or training in free time to get to the abbility that they should have with level up
This is something I've been wanting to do and implement into my games. I've been struggling to get a couple of my players to embrace their creativity, and a couple others to involve themselves in the RP side of things. I have two who are brilliant in both but fall a little short in the communication side of things re: their party members. Thanks for putting it into a methodical easy to follow system. It actually gives me confidence to use this system whilst clearing up some mechanical issues I was dealing with. This is the first video I've seen of yours. I subscribed within the first minute.
Man, when you mentioned the story about your barbarian player, it hit me that I've been more concerned with the history I'm trying to tell than what my players might want to do or express. Thanks.
My DM has wanted to do this. I was mostly annoyed because he has a hard time weaving in player opportunities like that. But we have a "journaling" component in our games because it could be a couple weeks between sessions. That gave us a chance to build story and make those opportunities. I created a dream sequence where my wizard, who had been knocked unconscious, found he could focus and manifest reality (cf. Tasselhoff, Dragonlance), and got access to Polymorph. As a DM, I encourage players to push limits all the time, mostly because my players don't know the rules very well. It's very natural with spells.... Firebolt with splash damage? yes! Put some extra spell fuel into it (burn a spell slot), roll an Arcana check, and see what happens.
Right before leveling up to Barbarian 3, the party was doing a social encounter in a wizard school. My Barbarian did some martial training with the wizards, bringing out his natural talent for spirit conjuring as an Ancestral Guardians barb.
The thing about your storm herald example is you as the DM (unless your running XP which I disagree with) choose when the players level up and can hold back the level up of the party by a session and can come up with your own reason for it
I won't argue your position about XP, but if "leveling up" takes some downtime (my game, 1 day per level being gained), then that could still work. Just make the downtime not quite accessible until all the triggers have occurred. Or, as he says in the video, go ahead and give all the base mechanics, but talk to the player about what might get held up and why. Communication solves most of these problems. Remember, he started by saying "with player buy-in"!
For me and my players we just have the "earning" of features and spells be off camera. Just because the wizard now can cast fireball, it doesn't mean the character hasn't worked for it. It happened off camera!
But why? I'd love to hear about how your wizard studied for his spells, i want to know what kind of wacky mishaps occurred before he figured it out. All it takes is a little roleplay. It also allows your Wizard to learn Fireball "sooner", because it'll be the first spell he studies.
with you on this one, it is the same aproach i prefer, it would become tideus to roleplay training every little thing beforehand, and it also diktates certain choices early on when the dynamics of the party and the world are still building up. for my example my drow entertainer shadowmonk, the backstory made him a powerfull assassin that after bringing down the order enjoyed a century of freedom as a musicanloosing his skills down to level one at the start at the campaign. the plan was a kung fu tv series like aproach, where he learns his old abilities back through flashbacks during level up. i sticked with that idea but very early on i came out he was the only melee combatant, and with only a d8 for a hit die he went down very often. allthough no reason to worry coz we have 2 clerics in the party, but they don´t really do much before one goes down. resulting in a lot of near death expiriences for my drow so it would have made sense to go drunken master and exploring a new way than the old one, unfortunatly there was no booze in the whole region to play that route ;) i don´t know how long the coach takes to bring the charakters to level up the first 3 levels but in my expirience it takes barely enough time to get into the charakters mindset fitting the campaignsetting. i very often had the situation that my planned subclass choice didn´t really sit with the charakter in campaign development and if it needs to be roleplayed ahead it would throw me back on the features of that different class. i think it can be a good thing but need proper execution and judgement of the GM considering the timing of campaign events to know when to enforce that system or loosen up the shackles it creates when things go another way.
@@sleepinggiant4062 they can be, if reasonable timing and spotlight sharing is applied, or the whole group is involved. like watching a play at the theatre, or even get drunk in celebration of a great victory (wich is in fact downtime in a sense) and i like those moments a lot, but i don´t enjoy wasting playtime with my charakter doing stuff on its own, especially if it is something that can be passed as a part of a routine that happens unspoken (i.e. Training or going shopping for stuff that isn´t that special). the best it gets is a note to the GM and its done. but forced on to get stuff one should get by the rules of the game feels not that enjoyable, there i agree.
My DM is literally doing this with my character in our upcoming campaign. We actually haven't hit Session Zero yet, but we happened to be hanging out a couple weeks ago and he mentioned this concept of "when you hit level 3, you won't get those abilities immediately, but soon. trust me"
It is not entitlement. It's the rules. It's written down in the Player's Handbook how to level up. As long as it works for your table, that's great, but this would not be a fun game to play in. Roleplaying out mundane downtime play to earn what I have already earned is 'Mother-May-I' DMing. Wizards don't spontaneously learn new spells, they have been researching the new spell during their previous levels. This rule was done away with after AD&D 2e for good reason: it was a terrible rule, and the DM should not hold new spells over the player's head. They did earn the rewards, it's called experience - which....is earned. Making each player take one-on-one time from you to learn new abilities would get old very fast. You make them earn it after they have already earned it. Silly. It's not challenging the players, you are making them jump though hoops and play the way you think they should play - the right way to play D&D is to have fun. Not your fun, however the individual finds it fun is the right way.
One of my characters had a backstory that involved him studying oozes. He was something of a leading exert on the topic. I was also seeding in roleplaying and such the idea that he maybe sorta kinda worshipped Juiblex, the demon lord of oozes. Had the campaign gone long enough, this might or might not have turned into him multiclassing into warlock or cleric or something. I was setting it up in advance is the point.
I'm writing a story where shards of other planes are around and part of the story so if they attune to a piece of fey shard or shadow fell shard they can have access to patrons or spells if they interact with them.
I love playing this way both as a player and a DM. I am playing a Tiefling that was 6 level Paladin (Oathbreaker -> Devotion because of story reasons in the campaign) with 5 more levels in Hexblade Warlock (of course playing with Pact of the Blade for the Greatsword). Also my original patron (which was an evil Archdemon) was replaced by the Goddess when I made my renewed oath as a Paladin devoted to her (the change in subclass) after dying once and fighting a fragment of the Demon's soul that tried to take over my body. I destroyed his @ss (DBZ level duel with the boss) and survived death because he had already started corrupting my body trying to take it over during our duel. I wanted to go the rest of the levels as a Divine Soul Sorcerer, and I told my DM that I wanted to earn the level at the right moment even if I had to wait multiple sessions for it. The guy delivered. 7-8 sessions after the other player earned the 12th level, we had a fight with one of the Demon Generals on top of a tower with 3 more allied NPCs. As I called my Goddess to give me power for the fight (activating Sacred Weapon + Great Weapon Master which I only use with the first as a restriction to myself), my DM said that I feel the Goddess' artifact which I had on me for the last few sessions (some bracers made from leaves and vines) wrapping around my hands and connecting with my greatsword (which also has a look connected to nature because of the Goddess' domain). I earned the level at the start of the fight, and my new abilities played an important role in defeating the Demon General. I earned another level at the end of the fight together with the other player. It was fricking EPIC!!!!
I let my players level up, I feel like it's their character, and they should get to play with all the stuff they wanted to bring to the table. Magic items or reagents for powerful spells are adventures in and of themselves, and where I gate power. My players are the drink a beer, roll some dice, and make jokes type, so verisimilitude just isn't an axis they care about, so they just wouldn't be cool with stuff like this. They're also engineers, a pharmacist and a math teacher who are dirty min-maxers and mostly care about combat etc. So I just prepare adventures and ramp up the difficulty on them. Works for us, which is the most important part.
I've done some of this by roleplaying the abilities they get on leveling up (inspired in part by what Matthew Mercer did sometimes for his M9 campaign). For instance, one of my player's ranger learns her new skills from her brother (who is also like her mentor); or our bard reached level 6 right before they were about to go into the Feywild so the elf who gave them the quest taught him how to countercharm. I think leveling by milestone helps with this, too, so that I, as the DM, can be more in control of that process to ensure that it fits narratively. I am interested in trying to implement more of your ideas like getting players to be more proactive in it and taking it above and beyond the normal level up abilities. Thanks for the video!
I had some reservations about the content of this video, but I really like the idea and I bet it makes the experience more rewarding and enriches the story. Thanks for the video!
I had a player join in to my campaign over a year in as a scribes wizard as at level 5. I had mentioned to him about having perks and level ups being very similar to this video. For months I had NPCs talk to him about his spellbook and about how it seemed empty/asleep/lacking a personality. I had chatted with him outside the game about how he wanted to flavour it but nothing ever was decided or happened in game. The party hit level 6, I allowed him to get his hit dice and such, but then I challenged him on the spells and spell book. I had asked him about what spells he was researching during the campaign, and he kept saying nothing. So he had not learned anything at level up. He asked about his level 6 feature, and I had to have an honest conversation about how his book lacked a soul and 4 prominent wizards had told him so. Within a few sessions he had sought out an allied wizard NPC and studied and learned 3!! new spells for free. Then he bonded with a few spirit of intellect that he had acquired a while back. Through a BUNCH of downtime and activities he really immersed himself into the RP and after overcoming some very bad rolls at the start he was able to get his level 6 perk. It was a rewarding experience seeing him get so into his character.
My players were new to dnd and they didn’t really know what they get when they level up so I naturally came up with a similar system. Every spell beyond lvl 1 came to them through events and actions in the world, sometimes i cheated and used dreams or NPCs
In a way it takes behind the scenes aspects of the character and brings them foreword. Even new players should have some concept as to how they want their character to play, even if they don't know the path. Don't know if it is a system i would use but it is a concept to keep in mind for artifacts and other rewards.
Making it Make Sense is terrific. Have been using your flavor of “how do embody this xyz”. Putting more emphasis on Role Playing vs character sheet Rolls
About that Storm herald thing I would move that lighting creature to this season or maybe when they stop for a sleep then there will be some storm on the horizon and when there will be herald watch at the begining of the night you say something like "you all wake up at morning slepped through your watches and you saw that earth around you is in dry circle and when herald turn around to you he have lighting in his eyes" At the other hand maybe through game players should learn some abbilites faster from level above and level up as a reward for hard work
When I do level ups, I steal from Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion. They have to have a nights rest to level up and they also have to share with me what their character meditates on and what they've learned in the past level. A few players get really into and send me a full page of their character's musings. Its also a great time for me to give them feedback on how their character is doing.
How well has this worked for larger groups (ie 6+) for you, DC? It seems like it would be tough to work specific character progression into a story for so many individual people, and have it line up reasonably well with when the whole group levels. Or maybe you just have them level at different times? I love the idea, though.
I had similar concerns, until I realized that it was more about encouraging roleplay and implementing character progression into the "life" of the character. (See my other comment, as he says, you'd have to be a stump on a log, to not get your level up).
Miles has it right too, its just a slow progression of moments between levels. So you shouldnt have a problem unless they are leveling up EVERY other session or something :)
@@TheDungeonCoach it depends on the time it takes from the session time. i play in 3 campaigns as a player with less than 2 hours (effectivly speaking) a week per session with 5+ players each. that is barely enough time to get the adventure going, and giving everyone enough spotlight doing adventure relevant stuff. in such cases it feels more like a waste of time, since even 2 minutes per player takes 1/12th of total sessiontime away from the adventure. the campaign i run myself has 4 hours sessiontime per week with only 4 players, but even there i don´t think it would work. the players there are not that keen on thinking about their charakter outside the session, and i have learned, trying to motivate them being more involved is a task burning me out. even getting infos i need to custom tailor the experiences they want to them is a process of it´s own. i rather motivate the players by giving an extra for involvement instead of holding back something they can rightfully expect by the rules. espacially in the early levels where they need their stuff to survive ;)
Another great vid, DC. When I’m lucky enough to play, I’ll have an idea of where I see my character down the line, but I love calling an audible and changing the original idea due to unforeseen in game events.
I appreciate everything you put out, has really been helpful as a DM and a player. I am always looking for ways to improve not only my games, but my interactions with my players. Thank you!
Idk holding stuff back sounds lame. I think you’re half right. RAW should be followed in this case and things given at level up. Unless you are super clear on the RP prerequisites expectations beforehand and it doesn’t slow down progression. Slower progression is not fun. The next evolution of this would be to add additional cool class features, abilities increases, skill increases, spells for doing cool things, discovering oddities, and interacting with the world that are not tied to levels at all like in fallout 3. Example would be a wizard finds an unique spell written on the wall of a tomb and can make a check to learn it.
Not "hold stuff back" but rather "foreshadow the acquisition". All along during level 2, your wizard is experimenting with how to make - for example - firebolt more effective. More power? multiple bolts? then you hit 3rd and "learn" Scorching Ray (basically 3 firebolts doing +1 damage). You aren't late in learning scorching ray, you get it "on time"... you just clearly started working on it. [And, taking another part of DCoach's rewards for buying into the system... maybe your basic firebolt now also does that +1 damage.]
@@frederickcoen7862 don't get me wrong it sounds cool, I would be ok with this personally as a player. But as a DM like he said it would discussed at session zero and if a player said they didn't want to, I'd respect it. Maybe they change their mind from watching others out maybe they don't. I wouldn't push it though.
Just based on the way you talk about magic, I think you would LOVE Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios. It's an alternative magic system that reimagines magic as a modular toolkit, rather than a list of individual spells. Magic effects are organized into categories called "spheres", similar to schools of magic but more granular. There are 20 spheres, such as Creation, Destruction, Fate, Mind, Time, ect. Each sphere gives you a basic ability similar to a cantrip, and access to a number of talents within that sphere which allow you to modify that basic ability to craft a desired spell effect. For example, if you want to throw a fireball, you can take the Destruction sphere, which gives you a basic ability called destructive blast which does bludgeoning damage. Then you can take talents to modify the blast with a blast type talent such as Fire Blast, which changes the damage type to fire and causes enemies to potentially catch on fire, and also modify it with a blast shape talent such as Explosive Orb, which allows you to affect an area. Bam, now you have a fireball. But you could just as easily make a fire aura, or a cold line, or a lightning cone. It's far and away my favorite magic system I've ever come across.
I tend to have a plan for up through 10th or 12th level. Not only mechanical but fluff. It gets contagious with some of the other players as well. I'm playing a kobold artificer range and support who idolizes another player who is a goliath barbarian. Eventually the kobold will be "becoming" a font line combat toon in the heavy artificer armor (not unlike the Marvel Hulkbuster.) The barbarian who is aware of this plan for 10th level has started cheering and goading him on anytime the kobold ends up doing anything physical or with a sword. None of it even requires the DM getting involved. (well except allowing me to become M in the armor instead of S.)
I do things like this. The players must of course be on board. The wizard needs the time to research and write out the new level up spells. Often they are researching the new spells before the level up then take the time after LV up to write it in the book, etc. In one of the TTRPG’s I’m working on I’m building LV up into various things (spells, combat maneuvers, etc.)
You're basically making roleplaying a requirement for leveling up; the fighter has to seek downtime training and gym time, the wizard has to actually say he's studying specific spells, and the Cleric spends a lot of his free time at the local temples, praying and healing the sick or wounded. I would love to either DM for, or play with, a group that does this naturally, without the need for a house rule. Though, I do see issues for players who are mostly interested in smash'n'dash style gaming, or whose first time it is. A good DM would give their players the roleplay opportunities they need to advance; have an NPC Fighter (of a higher level) offer to teach the party Fighter a new Feat, or challenge him to a duel. Give spell scrolls and books to your wizard- Often! If your wizard has to spend downtime studying his freebie level up spells, he'll reconsider his loadout. Have the Cleric roleplay speaking to temple officials, their religions figurehead (pope, etc), or even celestial beings.
You'd love my nature cleric he's the most devote character you've ever seen literally every day he's praying or doing something with the plants or animals around him. Everyday in town he's off to the temple the fields or the local animal breeders. There is no rules there is no real benefit I get nothing for casting plant growth in every village we pass but god dammit that's the character and I'm gonna do it. So far he has never gotten a response from Chauntea but When I finally hit 9th level the dm won't have a choice but to play along because I'll have commune.
as GM, I run a session zero which has the characters begin at lvl-0. I do this to get the players into the game right away. this gives them a reason to be together and possibly a purpose. as an introductory lvl, the characters have the basic stats, but no character class. this allows the players to mold the character to their individual idea of identity. at 1000 xp, the character attains lvl-1. now they pick the starting class and gain those particular abilities. that is the only lvl they get straight from the PHB. this is usually the 2nd or 3rd game session for the group. now I step in as GM. I discuss with each player the direction they would like to see the character progress. I create the character class levels, using some of the PHB info, plus in game goals, quests and/or projects. now the character has in game tasks as well as xp to earn. these activities may be part of the on-going story or completely separate. the players also Never get to see the characters potential progression or its benefits prior to attaining that lvl. now my players have a reason to be a group, a problem to solve and character development path. we never use chapter levels, group xp or chapter xp. everything is awarded to the individual. final point, xp per lvl is different for each character. no generic xp awards or advancement. this is how our group enjoys to play, no rushing through stories. no rapid advancement that bypasses character development. no forcing the characters background into the story to keep the player interested. just a good story among friends with everyone getting the opportunity to be the hero.
For the storm herald question. I have a tempest focused battle cleric player. But he really plays of the "my God is the rightfull only God and gets mad at people with different faith" so I'm gonna give him a path into the storm herald barbarian by giving him a nerfed rage and take away some of the cleric spells to balance. If he chose to fight for the gods honor its lighting cleric/barbarian time and if he change his mind I'll just put him back on the cleric path. But it will take time and slowly evolve over time and not lvls.
@@punishedwhispers1218 literally no one has mentioned pushing or dictate players into a roll. It's about options and giving the players options they might not have thought about since he has not read the book were there is a storm barbarian and he wanted thunder and lighting as his thematic.
I'm surprised you felt like you needed to be defensive on this. It's my first time DMing, so I'm throwing a bunch of level up modes at my characters so far, but I strongly leaned toward this from the first. It also gives me a way to depart from stock class abilities. I just had a cleric surprise me in an underwater dream sequence and try to breathe the water. I am 100% looking for ways to adjust give him some kind of water breathing.
I see a reverse issue where a player could exploit the system. By being too active, and working towards a ton of goals one after another, a player could pull far ahead of where you need them to be. This can be controlled by a dm, but it's hard to do that and have it feel organic. I know because as a sandbox heavy dm who likes to reward my players for creativity and coming up with cool ideas and concepts, I have been exploited in this way by my extremely intelligent players. Sometimes, what they think of should work, but it's just too much and I have to say no, plain and simple
This is the Skyrim "jumping everywhere I go to improve my Jump skill" scenario that we want to avoid. This isn't a mechanic to exploit, it's a tool to make things feel more organic. Me personally, I use XP instead of Milestone. And I reward XP for creative ideas, exploration ("travel broadens the mind"), overcoming encounters/challenges (whether foes were outsmarted or slain), and so on. the party in my current game were presented with a challenge of "radioactivity", and figured out "ablative magical protection". But then they ended up with new problem "all ablative protection decays at same rate" (i.e. stacks of it don't extend duration), so they paid attention to the world around them, and figured out a "charged protection box" that keeps the substance not-in-use safe from the "radioactivity". ["" = Story concepts with different name and explanation]. They got XP for figuring out how to protect themselves, and then *more* XP for inventing and creating the "box" to get around limits I had intended in the game. hurrah for them!
@@frederickcoen7862 I totally understand the solution personally, but my point is that the solution is an intangible one, not a tangible one. It just comes down to knowing when your players are going too far and telling them no, or at least maybe at another point. Also, I also prefer xp for much the same reason: it allows me to reward my players for going above and beyond. I can't get my players to agree to it though, as they think it encourages a more murder-hoboish style of play. Talking to the questgiver doesn't give xp, but killing him does (or at least waiting to kill him after they know the quest so they can still go on it to get that xp too)
@@Forever-GM-Dusty I had to laugh at your reply, because I got an email later today (after my reply) from a player who looked over the XP awards I published, ignored all the XP rewards they got for traveling and problem solving and story advancement and negotiation, and said "looking at this, we got more xp from killing things. We should be murder hobos. " so I guess my idea ain't foolproof, eh?
@@frederickcoen7862 I feel you there, man. No system is perfect and smart players always will find ways to exploit it. That's why the most important skills for a dm are communication and knowing when and how to say no, while still rewarding out of the box thinking and creativity
As a player, this is exactly how I play my characters. As a DM, I hate that my players don't do this and they just wanted everything because they want to win the game.
This is actually my preferred way of DMing. Players want to better skills? Then players need to state that they are working on them during downtime. Wizards need to study their arcane texts in order to level-up, maybe even seek out someone more learned to unlock the knowledge to cast higher level spells, etc.
This is something I have been doing as a DM since Second Edition (2e). When you hit a level, you tell me what you're planning on for the next level. This really came into play in 3e, where multiclassing rules changed so dramatically. You need to tell me you're working on your Escape Artist skill and borrowing the wizard's spellbook to start learning the basics (about to multiclass into level 1 Wizard). That doesn't mean you can't change your mind through the course of the adventure - "whoops, we're spending a lot of time on a ship, hunting pirates, I'd rather learn Navigation instead, and, well, I've been praying to Umberlee not to sink us, maybe I take cleric 1 instead of wizard 1!" - but it sets the stage for that next level because you're planning on the new skill/ability/spell before you get it. -- To be fair, this was mostly background, where your ideas in the video make this an opportunity for a little more foreground roleplay and player involvement. and I like that. My second 5e character ever was a tabaxi Swashbuckler with a history of being groomed as the chosen one for surviving a lighting bolt as a kit... except his clan was wiped out by dragons. Story, moving on. The point is he had a lightning-shaped black scarring in his fur, and the DM let me have an "innate" magic item (Tattoo of Lightning Absorption). I took Magic Initiate and picked up booming blade and green lightning (flame) blade - manfesting that internal lightning into crackling energy on my claws and weapons. My Familiar was likewise a manifestation of that magical lightning energy. So when, at 5th level, I took a level of Tempest Cleric... no one was surprised. It was just further - more controlled - manifestation of the lightning-based story my character had been evidencing all along. In my campaign, the fighter (an ex-marine from a foreign land) steadily advanced to become a Battlemaster - but treated it as reclaiming lost skills and relearning them on a non-pitching battlefield (i.e. not a ship). Then he switched over to Rogue, after watching the party's rogue for two levels, learning how to make his blows hurt more. Then, at Rogue 3, an ancient keepsake of his family sparked and activated - which has made an impact in the Story a couple times - jolting his brain activating dormant "psionic" powers... he technically became an Arcane Trickster, but we reflavored it all as telekinesis, clairvoyance, and sonokinesis (control over sound). He has the "spells" booming blade, color spray, silvery barbs, find familiar, mage hand... but instead he has TK (mage hand), clairvoyance and clairaudience (100' range, as if he had a familiar), a cheap trick with dyed sand to dazzle or blind a foe (color spray, his TK spreads the dust to 15' cone), and his sword vibrates in his hand when he concentrates on it. He can use his TK defensively to block some strikes and spells, and take advantage of his foe being off-balance (silvery barbs, nerfed a little to only apply to himself). All from talking to my player and working with him to develop the PC the way he wants. And he doesn't step on the toes of the "casters" in the group, even the lore bard's familiar.
This makes sense 💯. I don't even like using abilities I haven't set up before I got them. It's why multiclassing can be good or cheese depending on the way your character moves thru the story
This Gave me a great idea, I have a Hexblade/Echo knight I'm going to start flavoring my Eldritch blast to look like ghostly version of my self attacking to Forshadow the Mainfest Echo feature. Thanks for the Idea!
I don't run this system as most of my friends aren't more invested than just looking to hang and play the game, but I do this when I play as a player. If I was a storm herald barbarian but only lv 1, I would describe static around my arms even though I wasn't lv 3 yet, but it is 100% flavor until lv 3
I don't know why whole that video remind me that old song from EuroVision esspecialy with lyrics: "Motivation, a powerful strength Hesitation was my first instinct I got the notion that weakness was Total devotion, it's okay because I will hold back tears So I can move in the right direction I have faced my fears Now, I can move in the right direction I'm doing fine One step closer every day at the time" 😂
Many of the problems you mention with possible players not wanting to could be solved just by implementing milestones. You're not leveling up until you've met some prerequisite. It's not leveling up and not getting those benefits, is a cap until X happens, with X as vague as you both agree on it to be.
The mechanics of Cypher System naturally facilitate this. Rather than accumulating XP and being granted abilities at set thresholds, XP is a currency you use to buy features. So if you want to role-play training, you can do that then buy the ability when you think it is narratively appropriate as the player, since you have control over how and when your XP is used. This entirely avoids the issue you brought up at 10:50
I do this with multiclassing, as in my house rule is that if you plan to multiclass, tell me beforehand so that I can write the narrative hook for it. And you can't utilize the features from that extra class until the narrative hook is complete. (Make's it so that they don't have to ruin their level up progress simply because their beat is taken longer than initially intended.) I think this video is less of "Earned" level-ups but instead NARRATING level-ups. Branding it as an earned level might put the idea in a player's head that they have to do more work than necessary, or the player won't get their level. Whereas, if you say to the party that you'll be implementing a system that allows for Narrating level-ups, then those that are more into RP will be on board, and those that aren't RP-inclined can fall back on you as the DM/Storyteller, to be a safety net. Also, making it clear that you are rewarding creativity rather than RP might help those shy players come out of their shells. Or breaking down what you consider to be "Roleplay" could help.
It sounds like a lot of this comes from a place of fostering player engagement with the setting/game. There's a couple things I do that work against this method and work in place of this method. First and foremost, reflavoring mechanics always takes place over "Okay, you want this subclass so I'm gonna have you fight this elemental critter that matches the thematics in the book." I genuinely don't care how much multiclassing and reflavoring players do. So long as they have a theme or cohesive archetype they can pick and choose whatever mechanics they need for the build. Take all the godly power source fluff out of Zealot barbarian and say they draw their power from their barbarian horde. You've made the Keldon warlords from Magic the Gathering. Make a "monk" by making a single class battlemaster fighter and taking unarmed fighting, all the maneuvers that apply to social and info rolls, and all the maneuvers that force movement around the battlefield. What I do to foster engagement is less dependent on PC mechanics. I use the XP rules from Cypher System games. XP is given out based on in game rolls, discoveries, and behaviors that push the plot forward. Players can level up whenever they get enough XP and even trade XP to the players lagging behind to gain inspiration tokens. Another reward system I've been toying with recently is feats and renown/piety. Take the Ravnica and Theros books. Have players track the renown they build for doing stuff for different factions and the piety they gain from their diety of choice. At character creation give everyone a single feat. If you have to ban variant human and Tasha's custom lineage so be it. At level ups that grant an ASI, players must raise their stats. No new feats. The only way to gain new feats is to earn 10 renown with a faction or 10 piety with a church. Every ten points the npc faction agents put them in contact with a tutor, tattoo artist, mystic, or whatever that grants them a new feat of the player's choice. You want three or four feats for your full caster or melee class that needs 3 main stats? You can have them after you become best friends with one of the faction heads/Guildmasters. Or when you become your god's high priest.
This video was amazing. My group has lost a lot of steam amd have all kinda hit a role play slump. This is a lot of great ideas for how to bring that spark back.
I believe in mile stoning and doing odd rewards like feats that can lead into level up sub class or for magic users…… or mentoring in “off time” and things like that. I’m also a DM who likes to run one on one and one on two side quests for my PCs for character development and to introduce more aspects of the campaign….. training montages can be fun to role play so I have NPCs scattered around and developed to help with these these things and some of the NPCs are Epic legendary characters that I use to develop story elements that a player might come in contact later as the narratives progress. I’m an avid amateur writer so I have stories written about some of the people, places, and past events in short story form that someone who has the history skill might know where a teacher might be or if a PC plans on multi-classing I will use that as part of the process and sometimes the PCs themselves can mentor other characters in their development at lower levels as well.
Video streak: 4. Campaign update: adventuring party decided to take on a half-dragon and kill them. Turns out this half-dragon was the son of a blue greatwyrm. Party was not prepared for their consequences and now they have lost their home city that they were using to break away from the tough adventure. Remember to show your party the consequences of their actions if they become murder hobos. Thank you for joining my TedTalk!
I did something similar to your warlock example. I was playing a homebrew game and my dragonborn sprayed a toxic gas instead of the normal venom where all enemies in a 15 foot radius, I pushed it with a little luck, I made it a 35 foot radius and when our magic user cast summon flame on my toxic gas it exploded, i tried doing other things like condensing it to a liquid but passed out from the lack of oxygen
I’m against the idea of putting more on the player for XP than showing up and rolling dice to do the thing they made their character to do. Sometimes I have a crap day and showing up so I can provide the support/DPR in a combat or use the help action here and there is the best I can manage. I’d have some real words for DM that decided I didn’t clear their arbitrary bar for engagement. That’s where I think this is a real tool for a group with a good existing rapport but an absolute candy red button for a DM that wants a power trip. It sounds appealing until you either codify it making it gameable, or leave it arbitrary in which case it’s easily abused by the DM. Pass.
If they got the level before the lightning battle, I’d give them specific lightning clues about the adventure and encounter that they only notice with their new abilities
I'm thinking about giving my players rewards for better back stories. Involve another PC? +25g. Fill out flaws, goals, ideals? +10g. From a known town or city within the world +20g. Etc. If the backstory is really solid maybe give them a magical item from Xanathar's guide
Your cheeses AF but you know what I'm a cheeses GM too good job... Loved the barbarian story about the new player. I found myself smiling big as could be cause I knew exactly the feeling you was describing. When it just finally clicks with a player and at the table no less is an amazing thing it's almost like seeing your kid do something cool for the first time...
I don't know about this, coach. Just getting players around a table at the same time and on a consistent basis is all a DM can expect. I would not want to restrict level ups, which would dissuade new players who are just learning how the game works. You're expecting way too much. Instead of a "negative" holding back of abilities, have them RP the new abilities instead. That way, you get them engaged and you keep the game positive. In the end, it is a game after all.
Remember groups are different. And he did start with "player buy-in in Session 0". The intent isn't holding back (despite the Ancestral Guardian's story), it's foreshadowing.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to implement this mid-campaign. This would be a start of campaign thing. As for learning Extra Attack, I agree with training during downtime, but I also think you could make a roll for that in combat. If you're trying to do an extra attack, you would simply make a Dexterity check to see if you manage it, and maybe you do, maybe you don't, but after enough successes you eventually master being able to do an extra attack. I'd also say that the attempts eventually take a toll on the player and give him exhaustion after enough failed attempts.
I'm playing a ranger that intends on going Swarmkeeper when he hits 3rd, but have his swarm be ravens, and during the course of his first level, my DM gave him a raven buddy that he found. Second level and he's now got a second raven, although this one can't fly as his flight wings were cut, so he's waiting for them to grow out. Mechanically, they're just my ranger's friends, although he can occasionally send the flying one off to get someone's attention or do brief scouting. But once he hits 3rd and takes his archetype, he is primed to suddenly finding that his care for his two ravens have gotten the attention of a whole swarm that is willing to listen to him and follow his commands. It's a pretty cool build up.
Thats fucking badass, thats what it is.
Or maybe that two ravens will disapeare for a week and when they come back they will have younglings becouse no one notice that one of them was she
Ooooh that is cool :D
Uncanny seeing your idea. Last year in a Curse of Strahd campaign I played a swarmkeeper with a Fae, 9-eyed Raven. The raven was able to split into multiple smaller corvids, up to 9 1-eyed birds, becoming the swarm.
Rick and 2 crows
I love how you wield story through all the mechanics. Makes every game special and unique. Thanks for the inspiration!
You have put into words things that have bugged me but couldn't put my finger on what/why. I'm currently 12 sessions into my first campaign as DM and when the PCs hit level 3 I had to come up with some reason for them to get their sub classes. One tapped into a repressed memory of their tutor, another has a vision from a God, and the other slipped into the Fey realm. It was mainly for my sanity as for why they would suddenly have these new things, and it's lead to new story paths I couldn't have dreamed of when we started. However, that was a lot of work on my part, I like the idea of sharing that load with the players. Thanks again DC!
That story at 17:30 nearly had me in tears! Man, I wish I could play with you as my DM. Also I would love to see your level ups making sense video.
This reminds me of when I was a Bloodhunter/Warlock Asmair my Mom taught me the ways of the Bloodhunter and my Dad was a Warlock from a family of Warlocks. I had a bond with my lance called Shango( an African thunder and fire god). I just leveled up to level 5 overall( I don't remember the exact level of which class), but I could choose a feat and I choose Awaken Spark. My DM seen that and told I couldn't it's full capability all at once. So he made a wonderful arc where I went to a temple based around my Asmair background and gave it a African flavor. So it set me up to not only made for me to get the feat, but also have an arc for me to earn every part of that feat.
Amazing DM
Unlocking a level up versus just showing up to the table for a level up. I'm sold on this earn it mentally. Thanks, Coach.
My DM and I had a conversation when I hit 4th level bard on my bardlock about what feat she wanted. The one that I chose would have given her 3 uses (per her proficiency bonus) each long rest. This seemed too powerful to me as a player and I told him that I thought my character should have to use it a few times before she can get up to 3 uses per long rest. He agreed. So this is a super interesting video to me.
Battle Smith Artificer, Beastmaster and Drakewarden Ranger all have great roleplay potential because of their companion. The Drakewarden is basically a Pokemon trainer so maybe you have to go out and do something to make your companion "evolve".
Systems like this are all about buy in. I'm not sure if this is something I'd want to enforce so much as something I'd want to encourage players to think about. I do like the idea of using level up perks as the 'carrot' to push people to think ahead and plan for their future levels (I gave a future eldritch knight a custom cantrip). Can't imagine forcing a warlock to use one of their precious spell choices on charm person in order to get dominate, though. :P
I wish replacing spells was more leniant
I tell my players to be thinking about their next level so that if they level up mid session, you're ready. I also like to give people a chance to do the next level of power if they do a successful roll.
One of the things I like to do is allow players to use an interact object action to command another party member, and that party member gets advantage on the action if it fits the command.
This encourages team based strategies, and allows players to work together. This also allows players to use their interact objects action more frequently. I even added a feat which would allow them to give multiple commands at once which was fun because I had a paladin player who went fully defensive support mode.
That story about your player stepping up and gaining her ancestral powers was amazing 👏
It's interesting... and it adds something (gradual increase in abilities) that has never been in level-based ttrpgs.
I had a DM try to pull this on me without introducing it at a session 0 though, my Rogue was about to hit 3rd level, and I always knew I wanted to go Arcane Trickster, so I started talking to him about what I could do with my Familiar that I was going to get... and he was saying "it doesn't make sense for [my character] to learn magic 'out of nowhere' ", which I objectively agree to. .... but... if you want me to RP learning magic over time, and building up to it, then I need to know in advance.
Agreed, this is a good point. Buy-in during Session 0, or at least one level of "grace" after mid-game implementation.
The Fighter (Battlemaster)/Rogue "ranger wannabe" in my campaign surprised me at 6th level by going Arcane Trickster - I thought he was going Scout. So we talked about where he thought his powers were going to come from, and what spells he wanted, and we reflavored them to tie into his backstory a little better (more "psionic" than "arcane", and somewhat boosted by the mysterious heirloom artifact), and an "awakening event" that triggered their manifestation. Half his spells are reflavored as advanced martial techniques instead, while the others are blossoming TK and clairvoyance... And now we've talked about what his plans are for 7th and 8th level, so he can "work on it" during play.
The pure Rogue has been gradually shifting from melee "gun & rapier" to a sniper, and as such as been working on gaining the Tasha class-option power of Steady Aim. (Tasha's came out In during the game.) At this level up (leveling is slow my game), she has mastered the ability, and can use it from now on. And at 8th, with she takes Sharpshooter (with XBE, ugh!!), there will have been three full levels of lead up to it. Not just suddenly "Oh by the way, I now shoot through walls."
@@frederickcoen7862 Buy in is a very important thing for any campaign I mean even basic RAW campaigns need buy in to be truly successful
This really encourages players to role play into their upcoming features and I absolutely LOVE the idea. I've used something similar in the past and have even encouraged players to design their own "level-up features" if they wanted something other than (but not OP) their class or sub-class features. It sometimes requires some collaboration, but has definitely been worth the effort with those players looking to be truly imersed into the experience.
I love this! I’m going to be running a low level adventure for my group in the next few months and I’ll definitely be bringing this up at session zero! Keep up the good work!
I feel personally heard! Thanks for this video!
Hahahaha its YOU! Glad you saw this one! lol
Why can't we just clone you so we can all have a dungeon coach for our own games :c
You always sound so passionate and invested into what is going on in .. what is basically still your hobby. It is crazy and with a few not so great experiences in the past I just really wish I could find someone to run a game with so much heart, the setting wouldn't even matter so much, it's so easy to fall in love with something another person is already so passionate about.
That compliment means so much to me! Thank you, I really am passionate about this hobby and love spreading that passion around :)
My only issue with the specific example you gave (Charm Person evolving into Dominate Person as a Warlock) is that having played a Warlock from 1 to 20 I got SO few spells known that I always went out of my way to never have spells that in any way worked like other spells that I had. So if I had 1 single target control type spell, that is the ONLY single target control spell I would ever take. The Spells Known restrictions for a Warlock is so intense for that class I don't see how that could work.
I also like the idea of a character leveling up (or at least getting a next level ability) during combat; I think it's simpler to default to doing it after a battle because you might calculate exp or if they have to choose a spell or something, it's a little less straightforward, but if it's a given what ability a character gets upon leveling up, looking for narratively appropriate moments in battle to do this (and maybe depending on a roll too) would be something fun to implement every now and again. This also fits more in with the fiction that we're used to; characters don't usually get some new special ability after they've already won a battle, but usually at some dramatic moment during the fight.
I love how this can give greater connection to the type of spellcaster the player is. A wizard might be testing out magical output against buoyancy to learn fly, while a sorcerer dreams of the wingbeats of dragon ancestors each night. It would also work well for altering effects. Maybe a storm herald barbarian player wants to test themselves within a toxic environment to reshape their desert fire damage into poison. Or it could be how they recycle a bad feat into one that works better for them.
What if you build a campaign where the characters don't really get levels put instead get abilities and features from classes as they do things that thematically fit!
Great video! My brain is racing with all the possibilities!
A structureless character advancement based on the DM's whim sounds like a terrible idea.
@@sleepinggiant4062 Sounds like Skyrim... ;-) Regardless, it *doesn't* sound like D&D. I'd suggest playing a different system rather than rebuild the guts of 5e.
Two things.
1. I do this already when multiclassing, I want multiclassing to be organic and story based.
2. I would ABSOUTLY REFUSE any DM that FORCED such a decision on an individual player.
Same, I do that with multiclassing and i if someone wanted to what was in this video i would be completely ok with it. I wouldn't push it on them though. If they don't want to do it, I'm not going to push it.
what a bunch of crying... if one don't want to play like, don't play, go away, but stop crying, don't force you bichness here.
Happy sunday! Definitely using this if my players are cool with it. The idea of spells being made in character first then gained officially on lvl up makes all play together more. To interact more. To tell a more cooperative story together. So hype!
Strikes me as a good way to waste game time to be honest. A wizard hitting level 5 and picking up counterspell and fireball is implied to have been working on those spells in his downtime/before bed. His "level up" is simply when he acquired sufficient knowledge/power to actually cast those spells regularly.
Now instead of it simply being implied, you're forcing him to commit to those spells early (hope he doesn't' change his mind!), and waste game time by having the player say, "Oh, before bed, my wizard spends 20 minutes working on his formula for fireball and another 20 minutes working on his formula for counterspell."
Such epic roleplay... Do we really need to spend time every day having him say that? Is that value added to the game? In addition it leads to logical questions that detract from the level up. RAW the spells are simply added to the spell book, there's no requirement to expend the ink/paper that can cost serious gold. So taken to extremes this system can cost your player money while adding nothing of value.
@@MJ-jd7rs it's a game. A game ran mostly by friends. If you or anyone doesn't like certain homebrew. You don't have to use it. I understand where you're coming from. But asking players to think ahead and take time outside the game to to add scenes isn't asking alot. Your wizard saying I'm working on spell formulas. Is plenty. It's alot more than many players do.
Dms do this all this times with lots of npcs, towns, shops, maps, history, ect. But most players just want to level up and say it was off screen. Alot of dnd is filler. But if you can make these scenes really short it still helps dms interact with your character. It's not all or nothing. It's a dial from 0-10. Do what you like. All that is important is the fun. If it's not fun stop.
Glad there are others that think this way. Best of luck with your hardcovers!
I enjoy listening to how passionate about story/narrative and player enjoyment/investment you are. The spices of life in my opinion. Great stuff.
I love this. There's an element of Skyrim (having to use skills/abilities/etc. for them to improve) and also of preaching collaboration and a living world. Players making character choices that go with the story, DMs making story choices that go with their players and their characters.
And also - it's a fine line - as you mentioned in the solutions. Looking ahead is good. Having your entire character planned out from level 1-20, not so much. It's almost like you need to leave room in your character and get to know them in order to make the best choices based on the story and to "yes, and" the games.
I've done this greatness, as a player I asked my DM if my astral self Monk could work towards getting their subclass features. So levels 3 and 4 I didn't have a subclass. The DM would foreshadow the characters astral arms whenever the character took patient defense. So, naturally, the character took patient defense more and more. Then in a story appropriate moment their arms manifested, it was great.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was cool :)
I'm really happy I'm not the only person who watched Colville's video and thought about the pros and cons of his ideas. Thank you Dungeon Coach for doing this video. I actually talked to my players about the card system and talked about my own problems with the "video game" ness of this idea. However I did like thinking more about well defined goals. Inspired by the DC, I've instituted Perks into leveling along with a lot of other homebrew stuff and that has helped my players become much more engaged. Anyway, I would love to hear more talk about rewards for players because money and magic items/tattoos just doesn't cut it.
Ive had an idea 💡
Spell Chains ought to be a thing; advancing from the Spark Cantrip to Touch of Combustion, to Fire Sneeze or Scorching Ray, all the way up to FIREBALL! And Elemental Touch to Elemental Aura, etc.
As the Wizard gains levels, they learn 3+INT in new spells (PF). In this system, An INT +4 Wizard can use the 7 "spell points", to either learn a new spell (as normal), or improve on a preexisting spell, which opens up the preexisting spell slot- when Touch of Combustion advances into Scorching Ray, you get to learn 1 new 1st level spell to replace Touch of Combustion. And you can always prepare Scorching Ray in a 1st level spell slot to "retro cast" Touch of Combuation.
This way, the Wizard truly is the "tool box" of magic. Of course, I would have my players roleplay these changes to their characters, as is mentioned in the video.
Nice. But you need to do it for other classes to. Like Fighter or Barbarian.
When they will sparing or training in free time to get to the abbility that they should have with level up
@@przemysawjozwiak144 Right, Vital Strike advances to Improved, and then Greater.
This is something I've been wanting to do and implement into my games.
I've been struggling to get a couple of my players to embrace their creativity, and a couple others to involve themselves in the RP side of things. I have two who are brilliant in both but fall a little short in the communication side of things re: their party members.
Thanks for putting it into a methodical easy to follow system. It actually gives me confidence to use this system whilst clearing up some mechanical issues I was dealing with.
This is the first video I've seen of yours. I subscribed within the first minute.
Man, when you mentioned the story about your barbarian player, it hit me that I've been more concerned with the history I'm trying to tell than what my players might want to do or express. Thanks.
I got chills there too that sounds fantastic!
Please keep the series going Coach!!
My DM has wanted to do this. I was mostly annoyed because he has a hard time weaving in player opportunities like that. But we have a "journaling" component in our games because it could be a couple weeks between sessions. That gave us a chance to build story and make those opportunities.
I created a dream sequence where my wizard, who had been knocked unconscious, found he could focus and manifest reality (cf. Tasselhoff, Dragonlance), and got access to Polymorph.
As a DM, I encourage players to push limits all the time, mostly because my players don't know the rules very well. It's very natural with spells.... Firebolt with splash damage? yes! Put some extra spell fuel into it (burn a spell slot), roll an Arcana check, and see what happens.
Gave me the chills with the ancestral guardian story, great job and great video
Right before leveling up to Barbarian 3, the party was doing a social encounter in a wizard school.
My Barbarian did some martial training with the wizards, bringing out his natural talent for spirit conjuring as an Ancestral Guardians barb.
The thing about your storm herald example is you as the DM (unless your running XP which I disagree with) choose when the players level up and can hold back the level up of the party by a session and can come up with your own reason for it
I won't argue your position about XP, but if "leveling up" takes some downtime (my game, 1 day per level being gained), then that could still work. Just make the downtime not quite accessible until all the triggers have occurred. Or, as he says in the video, go ahead and give all the base mechanics, but talk to the player about what might get held up and why. Communication solves most of these problems. Remember, he started by saying "with player buy-in"!
For me and my players we just have the "earning" of features and spells be off camera. Just because the wizard now can cast fireball, it doesn't mean the character hasn't worked for it. It happened off camera!
But why? I'd love to hear about how your wizard studied for his spells, i want to know what kind of wacky mishaps occurred before he figured it out.
All it takes is a little roleplay. It also allows your Wizard to learn Fireball "sooner", because it'll be the first spell he studies.
This, exactly. I don't find roleplaying out downtime activity enjoyable.
with you on this one, it is the same aproach i prefer, it would become tideus to roleplay training every little thing beforehand, and it also diktates certain choices early on when the dynamics of the party and the world are still building up.
for my example my drow entertainer shadowmonk, the backstory made him a powerfull assassin that after bringing down the order enjoyed a century of freedom as a musicanloosing his skills down to level one at the start at the campaign.
the plan was a kung fu tv series like aproach, where he learns his old abilities back through flashbacks during level up.
i sticked with that idea but very early on i came out he was the only melee combatant, and with only a d8 for a hit die he went down very often.
allthough no reason to worry coz we have 2 clerics in the party, but they don´t really do much before one goes down.
resulting in a lot of near death expiriences for my drow so it would have made sense to go drunken master and exploring a new way than the old one,
unfortunatly there was no booze in the whole region to play that route ;)
i don´t know how long the coach takes to bring the charakters to level up the first 3 levels but in my expirience it takes barely enough time to get into the charakters mindset fitting the campaignsetting.
i very often had the situation that my planned subclass choice didn´t really sit with the charakter in campaign development and if it needs to be roleplayed ahead it would throw me back on the features of that different class.
i think it can be a good thing but need proper execution and judgement of the GM considering the timing of campaign events to know when to enforce that system or loosen up the shackles it creates when things go another way.
@@sleepinggiant4062 they can be, if reasonable timing and spotlight sharing is applied, or the whole group is involved.
like watching a play at the theatre, or even get drunk in celebration of a great victory (wich is in fact downtime in a sense) and i like those moments a lot, but i don´t enjoy wasting playtime with my charakter doing stuff on its own, especially if it is something that can be passed as a part of a routine that happens unspoken (i.e. Training or going shopping for stuff that isn´t that special).
the best it gets is a note to the GM and its done.
but forced on to get stuff one should get by the rules of the game feels not that enjoyable, there i agree.
My DM is literally doing this with my character in our upcoming campaign. We actually haven't hit Session Zero yet, but we happened to be hanging out a couple weeks ago and he mentioned this concept of "when you hit level 3, you won't get those abilities immediately, but soon. trust me"
It is not entitlement. It's the rules. It's written down in the Player's Handbook how to level up. As long as it works for your table, that's great, but this would not be a fun game to play in. Roleplaying out mundane downtime play to earn what I have already earned is 'Mother-May-I' DMing. Wizards don't spontaneously learn new spells, they have been researching the new spell during their previous levels. This rule was done away with after AD&D 2e for good reason: it was a terrible rule, and the DM should not hold new spells over the player's head. They did earn the rewards, it's called experience - which....is earned. Making each player take one-on-one time from you to learn new abilities would get old very fast. You make them earn it after they have already earned it. Silly. It's not challenging the players, you are making them jump though hoops and play the way you think they should play - the right way to play D&D is to have fun. Not your fun, however the individual finds it fun is the right way.
One of my characters had a backstory that involved him studying oozes. He was something of a leading exert on the topic. I was also seeding in roleplaying and such the idea that he maybe sorta kinda worshipped Juiblex, the demon lord of oozes. Had the campaign gone long enough, this might or might not have turned into him multiclassing into warlock or cleric or something. I was setting it up in advance is the point.
I'm writing a story where shards of other planes are around and part of the story so if they attune to a piece of fey shard or shadow fell shard they can have access to patrons or spells if they interact with them.
I love playing this way both as a player and a DM.
I am playing a Tiefling that was 6 level Paladin (Oathbreaker -> Devotion because of story reasons in the campaign) with 5 more levels in Hexblade Warlock (of course playing with Pact of the Blade for the Greatsword). Also my original patron (which was an evil Archdemon) was replaced by the Goddess when I made my renewed oath as a Paladin devoted to her (the change in subclass) after dying once and fighting a fragment of the Demon's soul that tried to take over my body. I destroyed his @ss (DBZ level duel with the boss) and survived death because he had already started corrupting my body trying to take it over during our duel.
I wanted to go the rest of the levels as a Divine Soul Sorcerer, and I told my DM that I wanted to earn the level at the right moment even if I had to wait multiple sessions for it. The guy delivered.
7-8 sessions after the other player earned the 12th level, we had a fight with one of the Demon Generals on top of a tower with 3 more allied NPCs.
As I called my Goddess to give me power for the fight (activating Sacred Weapon + Great Weapon Master which I only use with the first as a restriction to myself), my DM said that I feel the Goddess' artifact which I had on me for the last few sessions (some bracers made from leaves and vines) wrapping around my hands and connecting with my greatsword (which also has a look connected to nature because of the Goddess' domain). I earned the level at the start of the fight, and my new abilities played an important role in defeating the Demon General. I earned another level at the end of the fight together with the other player.
It was fricking EPIC!!!!
I let my players level up, I feel like it's their character, and they should get to play with all the stuff they wanted to bring to the table. Magic items or reagents for powerful spells are adventures in and of themselves, and where I gate power. My players are the drink a beer, roll some dice, and make jokes type, so verisimilitude just isn't an axis they care about, so they just wouldn't be cool with stuff like this. They're also engineers, a pharmacist and a math teacher who are dirty min-maxers and mostly care about combat etc. So I just prepare adventures and ramp up the difficulty on them. Works for us, which is the most important part.
Well, remember he started by saying "with player buy-in". Your players wouldn't buy-in, and that's fine.
Diegetic story based leveling so so rewarding, it’s something I have been implementing for a long while now!
I've done some of this by roleplaying the abilities they get on leveling up (inspired in part by what Matthew Mercer did sometimes for his M9 campaign). For instance, one of my player's ranger learns her new skills from her brother (who is also like her mentor); or our bard reached level 6 right before they were about to go into the Feywild so the elf who gave them the quest taught him how to countercharm. I think leveling by milestone helps with this, too, so that I, as the DM, can be more in control of that process to ensure that it fits narratively. I am interested in trying to implement more of your ideas like getting players to be more proactive in it and taking it above and beyond the normal level up abilities. Thanks for the video!
I had some reservations about the content of this video, but I really like the idea and I bet it makes the experience more rewarding and enriches the story. Thanks for the video!
I had a player join in to my campaign over a year in as a scribes wizard as at level 5. I had mentioned to him about having perks and level ups being very similar to this video.
For months I had NPCs talk to him about his spellbook and about how it seemed empty/asleep/lacking a personality. I had chatted with him outside the game about how he wanted to flavour it but nothing ever was decided or happened in game. The party hit level 6, I allowed him to get his hit dice and such, but then I challenged him on the spells and spell book. I had asked him about what spells he was researching during the campaign, and he kept saying nothing. So he had not learned anything at level up. He asked about his level 6 feature, and I had to have an honest conversation about how his book lacked a soul and 4 prominent wizards had told him so.
Within a few sessions he had sought out an allied wizard NPC and studied and learned 3!! new spells for free. Then he bonded with a few spirit of intellect that he had acquired a while back. Through a BUNCH of downtime and activities he really immersed himself into the RP and after overcoming some very bad rolls at the start he was able to get his level 6 perk.
It was a rewarding experience seeing him get so into his character.
My players were new to dnd and they didn’t really know what they get when they level up so I naturally came up with a similar system. Every spell beyond lvl 1 came to them through events and actions in the world, sometimes i cheated and used dreams or NPCs
In a way it takes behind the scenes aspects of the character and brings them foreword. Even new players should have some concept as to how they want their character to play, even if they don't know the path. Don't know if it is a system i would use but it is a concept to keep in mind for artifacts and other rewards.
Making it Make Sense is terrific. Have been using your flavor of “how do embody this xyz”. Putting more emphasis on Role Playing vs character sheet Rolls
About that Storm herald thing I would move that lighting creature to this season or maybe when they stop for a sleep then there will be some storm on the horizon and when there will be herald watch at the begining of the night you say something like "you all wake up at morning slepped through your watches and you saw that earth around you is in dry circle and when herald turn around to you he have lighting in his eyes"
At the other hand maybe through game players should learn some abbilites faster from level above and level up as a reward for hard work
When I do level ups, I steal from Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion. They have to have a nights rest to level up and they also have to share with me what their character meditates on and what they've learned in the past level. A few players get really into and send me a full page of their character's musings. Its also a great time for me to give them feedback on how their character is doing.
How well has this worked for larger groups (ie 6+) for you, DC? It seems like it would be tough to work specific character progression into a story for so many individual people, and have it line up reasonably well with when the whole group levels. Or maybe you just have them level at different times? I love the idea, though.
I had similar concerns, until I realized that it was more about encouraging roleplay and implementing character progression into the "life" of the character. (See my other comment, as he says, you'd have to be a stump on a log, to not get your level up).
Miles has it right too, its just a slow progression of moments between levels. So you shouldnt have a problem unless they are leveling up EVERY other session or something :)
@@TheDungeonCoach it depends on the time it takes from the session time. i play in 3 campaigns as a player with less than 2 hours (effectivly speaking) a week per session with 5+ players each.
that is barely enough time to get the adventure going, and giving everyone enough spotlight doing adventure relevant stuff.
in such cases it feels more like a waste of time, since even 2 minutes per player takes 1/12th of total sessiontime away from the adventure.
the campaign i run myself has 4 hours sessiontime per week with only 4 players, but even there i don´t think it would work.
the players there are not that keen on thinking about their charakter outside the session, and i have learned, trying to motivate them being more involved is a task burning me out.
even getting infos i need to custom tailor the experiences they want to them is a process of it´s own.
i rather motivate the players by giving an extra for involvement instead of holding back something they can rightfully expect by the rules.
espacially in the early levels where they need their stuff to survive ;)
This is an interesting way to level up your game that I had not considered. I will have to try this with the next campaign I play.
Another great vid, DC. When I’m lucky enough to play, I’ll have an idea of where I see my character down the line, but I love calling an audible and changing the original idea due to unforeseen in game events.
I appreciate everything you put out, has really been helpful as a DM and a player.
I am always looking for ways to improve not only my games, but my interactions with my players.
Thank you!
Idk holding stuff back sounds lame. I think you’re half right. RAW should be followed in this case and things given at level up. Unless you are super clear on the RP prerequisites expectations beforehand and it doesn’t slow down progression. Slower progression is not fun.
The next evolution of this would be to add additional cool class features, abilities increases, skill increases, spells for doing cool things, discovering oddities, and interacting with the world that are not tied to levels at all like in fallout 3.
Example would be a wizard finds an unique spell written on the wall of a tomb and can make a check to learn it.
Not "hold stuff back" but rather "foreshadow the acquisition". All along during level 2, your wizard is experimenting with how to make - for example - firebolt more effective. More power? multiple bolts? then you hit 3rd and "learn" Scorching Ray (basically 3 firebolts doing +1 damage). You aren't late in learning scorching ray, you get it "on time"... you just clearly started working on it. [And, taking another part of DCoach's rewards for buying into the system... maybe your basic firebolt now also does that +1 damage.]
@@frederickcoen7862 don't get me wrong it sounds cool, I would be ok with this personally as a player. But as a DM like he said it would discussed at session zero and if a player said they didn't want to, I'd respect it. Maybe they change their mind from watching others out maybe they don't. I wouldn't push it though.
I agree with you them preping is not a problem it's role-playing
Just preordered with bundle! So hyped!
Thanks for that!
Just based on the way you talk about magic, I think you would LOVE Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios. It's an alternative magic system that reimagines magic as a modular toolkit, rather than a list of individual spells. Magic effects are organized into categories called "spheres", similar to schools of magic but more granular. There are 20 spheres, such as Creation, Destruction, Fate, Mind, Time, ect. Each sphere gives you a basic ability similar to a cantrip, and access to a number of talents within that sphere which allow you to modify that basic ability to craft a desired spell effect.
For example, if you want to throw a fireball, you can take the Destruction sphere, which gives you a basic ability called destructive blast which does bludgeoning damage. Then you can take talents to modify the blast with a blast type talent such as Fire Blast, which changes the damage type to fire and causes enemies to potentially catch on fire, and also modify it with a blast shape talent such as Explosive Orb, which allows you to affect an area. Bam, now you have a fireball. But you could just as easily make a fire aura, or a cold line, or a lightning cone. It's far and away my favorite magic system I've ever come across.
I tend to have a plan for up through 10th or 12th level. Not only mechanical but fluff. It gets contagious with some of the other players as well. I'm playing a kobold artificer range and support who idolizes another player who is a goliath barbarian. Eventually the kobold will be "becoming" a font line combat toon in the heavy artificer armor (not unlike the Marvel Hulkbuster.) The barbarian who is aware of this plan for 10th level has started cheering and goading him on anytime the kobold ends up doing anything physical or with a sword. None of it even requires the DM getting involved. (well except allowing me to become M in the armor instead of S.)
I do things like this. The players must of course be on board. The wizard needs the time to research and write out the new level up spells. Often they are researching the new spells before the level up then take the time after LV up to write it in the book, etc.
In one of the TTRPG’s I’m working on I’m building LV up into various things (spells, combat maneuvers, etc.)
You're basically making roleplaying a requirement for leveling up; the fighter has to seek downtime training and gym time, the wizard has to actually say he's studying specific spells, and the Cleric spends a lot of his free time at the local temples, praying and healing the sick or wounded.
I would love to either DM for, or play with, a group that does this naturally, without the need for a house rule.
Though, I do see issues for players who are mostly interested in smash'n'dash style gaming, or whose first time it is.
A good DM would give their players the roleplay opportunities they need to advance; have an NPC Fighter (of a higher level) offer to teach the party Fighter a new Feat, or challenge him to a duel. Give spell scrolls and books to your wizard- Often! If your wizard has to spend downtime studying his freebie level up spells, he'll reconsider his loadout. Have the Cleric roleplay speaking to temple officials, their religions figurehead (pope, etc), or even celestial beings.
You'd love my nature cleric he's the most devote character you've ever seen literally every day he's praying or doing something with the plants or animals around him. Everyday in town he's off to the temple the fields or the local animal breeders. There is no rules there is no real benefit I get nothing for casting plant growth in every village we pass but god dammit that's the character and I'm gonna do it. So far he has never gotten a response from Chauntea but When I finally hit 9th level the dm won't have a choice but to play along because I'll have commune.
as GM, I run a session zero which has the characters begin at lvl-0. I do this to get the players into the game right away. this gives them a reason to be together and possibly a purpose. as an introductory lvl, the characters have the basic stats, but no character class. this allows the players to mold the character to their individual idea of identity. at 1000 xp, the character attains lvl-1. now they pick the starting class and gain those particular abilities. that is the only lvl they get straight from the PHB. this is usually the 2nd or 3rd game session for the group. now I step in as GM. I discuss with each player the direction they would like to see the character progress. I create the character class levels, using some of the PHB info, plus in game goals, quests and/or projects. now the character has in game tasks as well as xp to earn. these activities may be part of the on-going story or completely separate. the players also Never get to see the characters potential progression or its benefits prior to attaining that lvl.
now my players have a reason to be a group, a problem to solve and character development path. we never use chapter levels, group xp or chapter xp. everything is awarded to the individual. final point, xp per lvl is different for each character. no generic xp awards or advancement.
this is how our group enjoys to play, no rushing through stories. no rapid advancement that bypasses character development. no forcing the characters background into the story to keep the player interested.
just a good story among friends with everyone getting the opportunity to be the hero.
YES!! I've been meaning to implement this sometime in the future!!!
For the storm herald question.
I have a tempest focused battle cleric player.
But he really plays of the "my God is the rightfull only God and gets mad at people with different faith" so I'm gonna give him a path into the storm herald barbarian by giving him a nerfed rage and take away some of the cleric spells to balance.
If he chose to fight for the gods honor its lighting cleric/barbarian time and if he change his mind I'll just put him back on the cleric path.
But it will take time and slowly evolve over time and not lvls.
You'd better not just push this onto him, because it sounds like he signed up to be a cleric, not to be arbitrarily shoehorned into a barbarian
@@punishedwhispers1218 literally no one has mentioned pushing or dictate players into a roll.
It's about options and giving the players options they might not have thought about since he has not read the book were there is a storm barbarian and he wanted thunder and lighting as his thematic.
I'm surprised you felt like you needed to be defensive on this. It's my first time DMing, so I'm throwing a bunch of level up modes at my characters so far, but I strongly leaned toward this from the first. It also gives me a way to depart from stock class abilities. I just had a cleric surprise me in an underwater dream sequence and try to breathe the water. I am 100% looking for ways to adjust give him some kind of water breathing.
I see a reverse issue where a player could exploit the system. By being too active, and working towards a ton of goals one after another, a player could pull far ahead of where you need them to be. This can be controlled by a dm, but it's hard to do that and have it feel organic. I know because as a sandbox heavy dm who likes to reward my players for creativity and coming up with cool ideas and concepts, I have been exploited in this way by my extremely intelligent players. Sometimes, what they think of should work, but it's just too much and I have to say no, plain and simple
This is the Skyrim "jumping everywhere I go to improve my Jump skill" scenario that we want to avoid. This isn't a mechanic to exploit, it's a tool to make things feel more organic.
Me personally, I use XP instead of Milestone. And I reward XP for creative ideas, exploration ("travel broadens the mind"), overcoming encounters/challenges (whether foes were outsmarted or slain), and so on. the party in my current game were presented with a challenge of "radioactivity", and figured out "ablative magical protection". But then they ended up with new problem "all ablative protection decays at same rate" (i.e. stacks of it don't extend duration), so they paid attention to the world around them, and figured out a "charged protection box" that keeps the substance not-in-use safe from the "radioactivity". ["" = Story concepts with different name and explanation]. They got XP for figuring out how to protect themselves, and then *more* XP for inventing and creating the "box" to get around limits I had intended in the game. hurrah for them!
@@frederickcoen7862 I totally understand the solution personally, but my point is that the solution is an intangible one, not a tangible one. It just comes down to knowing when your players are going too far and telling them no, or at least maybe at another point.
Also, I also prefer xp for much the same reason: it allows me to reward my players for going above and beyond. I can't get my players to agree to it though, as they think it encourages a more murder-hoboish style of play. Talking to the questgiver doesn't give xp, but killing him does (or at least waiting to kill him after they know the quest so they can still go on it to get that xp too)
@@Forever-GM-Dusty I had to laugh at your reply, because I got an email later today (after my reply) from a player who looked over the XP awards I published, ignored all the XP rewards they got for traveling and problem solving and story advancement and negotiation, and said "looking at this, we got more xp from killing things. We should be murder hobos. " so I guess my idea ain't foolproof, eh?
@@frederickcoen7862 I feel you there, man. No system is perfect and smart players always will find ways to exploit it. That's why the most important skills for a dm are communication and knowing when and how to say no, while still rewarding out of the box thinking and creativity
As a player, this is exactly how I play my characters. As a DM, I hate that my players don't do this and they just wanted everything because they want to win the game.
This is actually my preferred way of DMing. Players want to better skills? Then players need to state that they are working on them during downtime. Wizards need to study their arcane texts in order to level-up, maybe even seek out someone more learned to unlock the knowledge to cast higher level spells, etc.
TLDR: Talk to your players, and just do it, repeat if issues arise. =D
This is something I have been doing as a DM since Second Edition (2e). When you hit a level, you tell me what you're planning on for the next level. This really came into play in 3e, where multiclassing rules changed so dramatically. You need to tell me you're working on your Escape Artist skill and borrowing the wizard's spellbook to start learning the basics (about to multiclass into level 1 Wizard). That doesn't mean you can't change your mind through the course of the adventure - "whoops, we're spending a lot of time on a ship, hunting pirates, I'd rather learn Navigation instead, and, well, I've been praying to Umberlee not to sink us, maybe I take cleric 1 instead of wizard 1!" - but it sets the stage for that next level because you're planning on the new skill/ability/spell before you get it. -- To be fair, this was mostly background, where your ideas in the video make this an opportunity for a little more foreground roleplay and player involvement. and I like that.
My second 5e character ever was a tabaxi Swashbuckler with a history of being groomed as the chosen one for surviving a lighting bolt as a kit... except his clan was wiped out by dragons. Story, moving on. The point is he had a lightning-shaped black scarring in his fur, and the DM let me have an "innate" magic item (Tattoo of Lightning Absorption). I took Magic Initiate and picked up booming blade and green lightning (flame) blade - manfesting that internal lightning into crackling energy on my claws and weapons. My Familiar was likewise a manifestation of that magical lightning energy. So when, at 5th level, I took a level of Tempest Cleric... no one was surprised. It was just further - more controlled - manifestation of the lightning-based story my character had been evidencing all along.
In my campaign, the fighter (an ex-marine from a foreign land) steadily advanced to become a Battlemaster - but treated it as reclaiming lost skills and relearning them on a non-pitching battlefield (i.e. not a ship). Then he switched over to Rogue, after watching the party's rogue for two levels, learning how to make his blows hurt more. Then, at Rogue 3, an ancient keepsake of his family sparked and activated - which has made an impact in the Story a couple times - jolting his brain activating dormant "psionic" powers... he technically became an Arcane Trickster, but we reflavored it all as telekinesis, clairvoyance, and sonokinesis (control over sound). He has the "spells" booming blade, color spray, silvery barbs, find familiar, mage hand... but instead he has TK (mage hand), clairvoyance and clairaudience (100' range, as if he had a familiar), a cheap trick with dyed sand to dazzle or blind a foe (color spray, his TK spreads the dust to 15' cone), and his sword vibrates in his hand when he concentrates on it. He can use his TK defensively to block some strikes and spells, and take advantage of his foe being off-balance (silvery barbs, nerfed a little to only apply to himself). All from talking to my player and working with him to develop the PC the way he wants. And he doesn't step on the toes of the "casters" in the group, even the lore bard's familiar.
This makes sense 💯. I don't even like using abilities I haven't set up before I got them. It's why multiclassing can be good or cheese depending on the way your character moves thru the story
This Gave me a great idea, I have a Hexblade/Echo knight I'm going to start flavoring my Eldritch blast to look like ghostly version of my self attacking to Forshadow the Mainfest Echo feature. Thanks for the Idea!
I don't run this system as most of my friends aren't more invested than just looking to hang and play the game, but I do this when I play as a player. If I was a storm herald barbarian but only lv 1, I would describe static around my arms even though I wasn't lv 3 yet, but it is 100% flavor until lv 3
I don't know why whole that video remind me that old song from EuroVision esspecialy with lyrics:
"Motivation, a powerful strength
Hesitation was my first instinct
I got the notion that weakness was
Total devotion, it's okay because
I will hold back tears
So I can move in the right direction
I have faced my fears
Now, I can move in the right direction
I'm doing fine
One step closer every day at the time"
😂
Came here with click-bait indignation.
Finished writing with understanding.
Good job, Coach.
Many of the problems you mention with possible players not wanting to could be solved just by implementing milestones. You're not leveling up until you've met some prerequisite. It's not leveling up and not getting those benefits, is a cap until X happens, with X as vague as you both agree on it to be.
The mechanics of Cypher System naturally facilitate this. Rather than accumulating XP and being granted abilities at set thresholds, XP is a currency you use to buy features. So if you want to role-play training, you can do that then buy the ability when you think it is narratively appropriate as the player, since you have control over how and when your XP is used. This entirely avoids the issue you brought up at 10:50
This sounds absolutely amazing.
I do this with multiclassing, as in my house rule is that if you plan to multiclass, tell me beforehand so that I can write the narrative hook for it. And you can't utilize the features from that extra class until the narrative hook is complete. (Make's it so that they don't have to ruin their level up progress simply because their beat is taken longer than initially intended.)
I think this video is less of "Earned" level-ups but instead NARRATING level-ups. Branding it as an earned level might put the idea in a player's head that they have to do more work than necessary, or the player won't get their level. Whereas, if you say to the party that you'll be implementing a system that allows for Narrating level-ups, then those that are more into RP will be on board, and those that aren't RP-inclined can fall back on you as the DM/Storyteller, to be a safety net.
Also, making it clear that you are rewarding creativity rather than RP might help those shy players come out of their shells. Or breaking down what you consider to be "Roleplay" could help.
We need more videos like this!
It sounds like a lot of this comes from a place of fostering player engagement with the setting/game. There's a couple things I do that work against this method and work in place of this method.
First and foremost, reflavoring mechanics always takes place over "Okay, you want this subclass so I'm gonna have you fight this elemental critter that matches the thematics in the book." I genuinely don't care how much multiclassing and reflavoring players do. So long as they have a theme or cohesive archetype they can pick and choose whatever mechanics they need for the build.
Take all the godly power source fluff out of Zealot barbarian and say they draw their power from their barbarian horde. You've made the Keldon warlords from Magic the Gathering.
Make a "monk" by making a single class battlemaster fighter and taking unarmed fighting, all the maneuvers that apply to social and info rolls, and all the maneuvers that force movement around the battlefield.
What I do to foster engagement is less dependent on PC mechanics. I use the XP rules from Cypher System games. XP is given out based on in game rolls, discoveries, and behaviors that push the plot forward. Players can level up whenever they get enough XP and even trade XP to the players lagging behind to gain inspiration tokens.
Another reward system I've been toying with recently is feats and renown/piety. Take the Ravnica and Theros books. Have players track the renown they build for doing stuff for different factions and the piety they gain from their diety of choice. At character creation give everyone a single feat. If you have to ban variant human and Tasha's custom lineage so be it. At level ups that grant an ASI, players must raise their stats. No new feats. The only way to gain new feats is to earn 10 renown with a faction or 10 piety with a church. Every ten points the npc faction agents put them in contact with a tutor, tattoo artist, mystic, or whatever that grants them a new feat of the player's choice. You want three or four feats for your full caster or melee class that needs 3 main stats? You can have them after you become best friends with one of the faction heads/Guildmasters. Or when you become your god's high priest.
This video was amazing. My group has lost a lot of steam amd have all kinda hit a role play slump. This is a lot of great ideas for how to bring that spark back.
It sounds like you said Incestral Barbarian at 17:45 lmao
I believe in mile stoning and doing odd rewards like feats that can lead into level up sub class or for magic users…… or mentoring in “off time” and things like that. I’m also a DM who likes to run one on one and one on two side quests for my PCs for character development and to introduce more aspects of the campaign….. training montages can be fun to role play so I have NPCs scattered around and developed to help with these these things and some of the NPCs are Epic legendary characters that I use to develop story elements that a player might come in contact later as the narratives progress.
I’m an avid amateur writer so I have stories written about some of the people, places, and past events in short story form that someone who has the history skill might know where a teacher might be or if a PC plans on multi-classing I will use that as part of the process and sometimes the PCs themselves can mentor other characters in their development at lower levels as well.
Video streak: 4. Campaign update: adventuring party decided to take on a half-dragon and kill them. Turns out this half-dragon was the son of a blue greatwyrm. Party was not prepared for their consequences and now they have lost their home city that they were using to break away from the tough adventure. Remember to show your party the consequences of their actions if they become murder hobos. Thank you for joining my TedTalk!
I did something similar to your warlock example. I was playing a homebrew game and my dragonborn sprayed a toxic gas instead of the normal venom where all enemies in a 15 foot radius, I pushed it with a little luck, I made it a 35 foot radius and when our magic user cast summon flame on my toxic gas it exploded, i tried doing other things like condensing it to a liquid but passed out from the lack of oxygen
Great video coach! 👍
I’m against the idea of putting more on the player for XP than showing up and rolling dice to do the thing they made their character to do.
Sometimes I have a crap day and showing up so I can provide the support/DPR in a combat or use the help action here and there is the best I can manage. I’d have some real words for DM that decided I didn’t clear their arbitrary bar for engagement.
That’s where I think this is a real tool for a group with a good existing rapport but an absolute candy red button for a DM that wants a power trip. It sounds appealing until you either codify it making it gameable, or leave it arbitrary in which case it’s easily abused by the DM.
Pass.
If they got the level before the lightning battle, I’d give them specific lightning clues about the adventure and encounter that they only notice with their new abilities
I'm thinking about giving my players rewards for better back stories. Involve another PC? +25g. Fill out flaws, goals, ideals? +10g. From a known town or city within the world +20g. Etc. If the backstory is really solid maybe give them a magical item from Xanathar's guide
Your cheeses AF but you know what I'm a cheeses GM too good job... Loved the barbarian story about the new player. I found myself smiling big as could be cause I knew exactly the feeling you was describing. When it just finally clicks with a player and at the table no less is an amazing thing it's almost like seeing your kid do something cool for the first time...
While I don´t do this to my players, as a player I do do this
How many likes do we need to have the level up video? I need my precious
If this is all explained in the session 0, it's all good...
I don't know about this, coach. Just getting players around a table at the same time and on a consistent basis is all a DM can expect. I would not want to restrict level ups, which would dissuade new players who are just learning how the game works. You're expecting way too much. Instead of a "negative" holding back of abilities, have them RP the new abilities instead. That way, you get them engaged and you keep the game positive. In the end, it is a game after all.
Remember groups are different. And he did start with "player buy-in in Session 0". The intent isn't holding back (despite the Ancestral Guardian's story), it's foreshadowing.
You have character-creation option 5 eyebrows 👌
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to implement this mid-campaign. This would be a start of campaign thing. As for learning Extra Attack, I agree with training during downtime, but I also think you could make a roll for that in combat. If you're trying to do an extra attack, you would simply make a Dexterity check to see if you manage it, and maybe you do, maybe you don't, but after enough successes you eventually master being able to do an extra attack. I'd also say that the attempts eventually take a toll on the player and give him exhaustion after enough failed attempts.