The Evolution of Warfare | Dune Lore
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- Опубліковано 12 бер 2021
- As a companion to Denis Villeneuve's adaptation of Frank Herbert's Dune, I've been exploring the lore behind this epic saga. In this video I talk about how warfare has advanced throughout the history of Frank Herbert’s Dune and why the use of advanced offensive weaponry is so limited.
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Dune by Frank Herbert By Marc Simonetti
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Dune by Frank Herbert by Marc Simonetti
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Considering it was written in the 60's and he voided AI in his book and bought back hand to hand combat i think is a real genius idea. Melee combat rather than laser blasters. Love it
make sense lasers is so typical
It's great how thorough FH was with his ideas: the premise of 'how far can we push the body and mind when they have to do all the heavy lifting?' Shows up almost everywhere, especially war
@@thomasdaywalt7735 It definitely does not "make sense". I can't even think of another sci-fi setting that opted to focus heavily on melee combat because of the power of energy shields. It's original and creative, not something obvious and banal.
@@BigMikeMcBastard Are you guys totally forgetting Star Wars? In Star Wars, "The Force" and "Lightsabers" have replaced energy shields to effectively legitimize melee combat in a futuristic setting (at least for the important characters). Obviously Star Wars was heavily influenced by Dune, but it's not a uncommon literary device because classical melee combat is just so much better for drama than fighting eachother with rifles and drones.
Edgar Rice Burroughs did something similar with the barstoon series it's funded its own genre called sword and planet science fiction I'm a huge fan of doing I love it a lot and it really does capture the imagination of what can be done in the far future
The other(real) factor limiting war in the Dune Universe, is the simplest of all: Cost. The guild charges a LOT for military transport. High rates, mean transporting armies, even modest forces, to other star systems, while logistically possible would be economically ruinous for most houses. This is by design. In the novels, the Baron mentions that to repay House Harkonens operations on Arrakis will take 70 years of (Spice) profits. Battles would have to be conducted between small, highly skilled forces as moving armies & heavy equipment via the Spacing guild, would bankrupt most houses even if they thought going to war was justified. The battle of Arrakkis was defiantly an outlier in terms of scale and scope. Its worth noting, the novels are somewhat vague about the actual #' involved and the various movies do little to clarify either.
Further, the Guild reduces military transport rates so low that even the poorest of houses could afford to send their troops to help the emperor fight Paul and his Fremen army. That is why the space above Arrakkis was filled with guild liners loaded with troops. Only deep discounts to get troops to Arrakis made that possible. So yes, its all well and fine to say, shields & lasguns bad, thus melee(which is technically true to an extent), but what really inhibits open warfare, is, at the end of the day, cost. Its far too expensive for anyone outside the emperor, to truly project conventional military force on a meaningful scale.
I really like this idea better than the very contrived efforts to make dune warfare melee based
I thought we were talking about why everyone in dune uses a sword? What does cost have to do with sending over soldiers with guns instead of swords lol.
@@tulipalll Personal Shields make more firearms somewhat pointless, as far as unit-on-unit combat goes. After a few centuries, things would go to Melee with the option of Maula pistols if you think you can get the drop on an opponent while unshielded.
@@Dylan-wz3dz Because the shields make high projectile weapons pointless ... Only few weapons work on them and even then you'd just blow up yourself and your enemy.
But slower weapons like swords, knives, darts, etc. aren't fast enough to trigger the shield. That's why in the movie the bombs must first slowly pass through the ships shields before detonating. The shield for a few seconds contains the explosion basically vaporizing the ship before it pops into a burst of flames.
It's wild because this same idea has been copied ever since. Halo, Star Wars, etc.
yeah, that’s what the video explained. I’m asking what does this essay in the comment section have to do with the use of swords lol.
If the only reason shields allow slow objects to pass is to facilitate breathing, could you carry an air tank and respirator with you, recalibrate the shield to block everything, and be practically invulnerable?
Ah but what about the carbon dioxide produced? Having a second tank to hold the waste gas would severely affect the ability to fight.
That sounds practical, but respirators have been known for failure. What happens if your air breathing device malfunctions in height of battle? You don't have time ask opponent stop trying kill you while the equipment is repaired.
@@paulhunter6742 Ok, the same could be said of scuba diving; you can't ask the water to stop trying to drown you if your gear fails. That's just the risk you take. Fix it quickly if you can. Fortunately, you're still invulnerable, so your opponent can continue to shoot/ stab at you all they like.
The personal shield also explains why short blades are most common, sense a light weapon has less inertia,thus easier to slow down
The newest movie shows body armor and Duncan aiming for the gaps. Sardaurkar troops for all their prowess lack proper throat protection. Of course Duncan is a beast and clearly knows the weaknesses of the armor.
He is also a Ginaz Swordmaster, which are considered superior to the sardaukar!
There is no weak spots it’s a matter of timing with having to penetrate the shield slowly.
@@caneloboi5942 they wear physical armor as well. The shield is why melee is necessary but plate is still a thing. You roll up looking like a knight, a sword is going to have a difficult time killing you.
Hold on, then why not wear bullshit strong physical protection? For example equal of medieval 15th century plate armor was. No one need to worry about high velocity projectiles. The whole melee combat sounds like forced concept to me.
@@blacklight4720 the armor swown in the movie should have been helpful in the combat but the seemed to rely on the sheilds which felt like a mistake. Duncan would have been stabbed through the chest. Though he does come back via cloning.
I have deliberately avoided anything "Dune" until recently knowing how profound of an impact Herbert's writing has been on science fiction. Now that my books are finished, I can explore his universe without fear of people saying that I had taken something from his work. I find your videos to be very rewarding. Thank you for your work.... seriously.
Thank you Adega!
That was a very dedicated commitment. Kudos. 🙂
Out of curiosity. What have you written?
And yes.... serious credit as well to Nerd Cookies. 👍🏾
IMO, this is among the most ambitious channels, to comment and analyze the Duneverse.
I'm not going to lie I started writing when I read the first few chapters I realised that I basically wrote dune in another perspective, and I hated myself for it
I love how Kotor actually references Dune with its personal shield lore.
Ever since I watched the new movie I’ve been fascinated by this world and your channel has really helped me understand it. Thank you
The hand weapon revival in Dune is an obsession about nuclear weapons crossed with an ecological weapons race in nature. There are always counters to great weapons, but the solution usually creates a worse problem, and the nuclear weapon age inspired the dream of counter weapons. I think this all is why Dune's universe is so much more fascinating than other scifi of the time. The feudal weapons are actually a very common scifi trope, being a cross of 19th century naval warfare in the west and the fascination of what a ship in space would worry about :) The drone bit is missing the other half of the power equilibrium challenge of shields. Hunter-Seekers were wireless drones, and their lack of wide scale use was due to the Butlerian prohibition against using "thinking" machines. Otherwise, we would have seen hunter-seeker "smart bullets" being used in mass array. It is the inability to give them electronic brains that stopped all types of weapons that would fire > hit shield > jump up and kill. Dune is awash in killing is OK, but only if it is "moral and civilized." Great coverage of lore as always, where the only complaints involve what didn't make the list of things talked about!!!
So if I was an aspiring warlord in that universe, I’d send in one guy with a lazegun to fight the saardikar and take out one thousand guys to the loss of one guy.
Every army in any universe will take those numbers, and shields for battle will quickly fall out of favor realistically.
@@ravenRedwake if the prohibition of lasgun vs shields is directly mentioned in the Great Convention, as is suggested here, then the entirety of the Landsraad, enabled by the spacing guild, would obliterate their homeworld.
Still, I agree that it's possible to do this, just not with an invading army. You would need to be much more discreet.
There is an aspect to the drone that is left out: machines can be made and used without being thinking machines, they must be controlled and operated by humans. So in the case of the hunter killer from the book Paul immediately knows there must be an operator nearby due to the short ranged nature of the machine, and it would have to be either a traitor or an embedded agent. Ultimately it is discovered that a Harkonen agent was literally buried alive inside of a wall before the Harkonens left the palace in order to operate the hunter killer
@@ravenRedwake Using a lone agent with a lazgun to take out an enemy's shielded stronghold would only work if there was absolutely no linking it back to the warlord/faction. If there was even a whisper of a suggestion that the resulting nuclear aftermath was an intentional plan then there would be severe punishment on all of those involved.
Not only would the Spacing Guild no longer do business with that aspiring house, virtually destroying any hope of comtinued revenue for said house being unable to trade outside of their system, but the other major houses of the Landsraad would be brought together by the Emperor to literally turn the warlord's home planet into dust via orbital bombardment.
So in short, this would not be worth it unless the conspiracy was completely untraceable...which would a pretty tough feat as not only would the Bene Gesuits (living lie detectors that they are), but also the greatest mentat minds would be looking into the evebt as well.
@@earlware4322 How about the Fremen? Why don't they just use the lasgun to blow some city on Arrakis that Harkonnen controls? Or is the blast too big to take whole planet?
This is a really effective breakdown, kudos to you for putting it together. Frank Herbert's thinking on how a shift back to a melee based system and the impact it would have on politics/society is rarely understood or appreciated. Been a huge Dune fan forever and your channel is getting me even more excited for the upcoming film. Keep these coming!
What a cool universe. I'm stoked to see the film.
I was introduced to Warhammr 40k in its' third edition through an Uncle and the influence of Dune on the franchise seems impossible to understate.
Right now my only real conundrum is "Do I watch the movie first, or I do I add the books to my list of things to read and experience it firsthand with my own imagination free of the contraints of a budget and studio"
Funny thing is, as much as people pan the '84 movie that was my first experience with Dune directly; my Dad loves sci-fi and let me stay up late as a kid in the late 90s to watch it with him when it was on TV.....My second experience with Dune was the Dune 2000 game made by the people behind Command & Conquer
Thanks elaine and nick
Thanks for a fantastic, informative video.
Your detailed coverage of Dune topics is always appreciated.
There was one hybrid atomic that was featured in "Dune Messiah" and was not considered a true atomic, although as a terrorist weapon its use was frowned upon. That was the Stone Burner.
From Dune Wiki:
"After the device was activated it would set off an explosion that arced straight up and down. The stone burner was a particularly destructive weapon. It could perform one of two tasks; the first function of the bomb was to release massive amounts of J-rays (a type of radiation that dissolves eye tissue), thus blinding all creatures within a few kilometers. The second objective was to create general destruction of property. The explosive yield would be determined by the person(s) who set up the device, as well as the size of its power source. Should the party wish it, the stone burner could explode down to the core of the planet. The resulting sudden release of the planets inner magma would tear the world apart. Despite its massive power, the stone burner was not considered an atomic weapon. Its fuel source was atomic, however. A stone burner would first detonate an atomic within it, and then collect the energy to use for its other devastating tasks. During the days of the Imperium, the issue of stone burners was a controversial one. According to the Great Convention, only Great Houses could possess atomics. Thus, someone who did not belong to a Great House could own a stone-burner, but they could not possess its fuel. The Great Convention also forbade the use of weapons of mass destruction such as atomics and stone burners against humans directly. However, there were times when this prohibition was circumvented or outright disobeyed."
Thank you !!! The way you explain so much in such a short time :) quality content 🙏🏼⭐️🙏🏼
Dune was unique - Most science-fictions portray a heavy emphasis on the future of technology. In Dune, technology merely forms a backdrop of a very human struggle and related conflicts. Society and its subsequent philosophies are heavily discussed. It also talks about religion whereas such content is absent in your typical science-fiction story.
Herbert wanted to make points about Transhumanism (but via Biology & Psychic powers), so he "bent" the universe to fit his theories. Trouble is, the more detail your setting has, the more you have to explain away. And Herbert really liked the detail, sooo..."why" we dont have blasters & common FTL ships became a very complicated/convoluted thing.
@Mister Majestic not really. When you think about it, if you read the books especially, why go to war with "sentient" machines? They were programmed, by us. In the crusade against them, humans still controlled them. It is a false narrative. It was a way to shoe horn in melee combat and make the main planet planet arrakis viable. Even while on arrakis you can't use shields, for a dumb ass reason, so the sand poeple can still use guns. It is bullshit bullshit. Would have been better to have a shield that blocks lasers so you have to use 21st century ballistics. Would be way more interesting to see a futurist ww1/ war on freedom style warfare.
I don't think Dune was unique in this way. Orwell's 1984, Asimov's Foundation Series and Dickson's Dorsai Childe Cycle also focused on the evolution of future human society rather than any particular science or technology. I think this was actually a common theme in SciFi of the 1950s, 60s and 70s.
@@mirrormonstere113 The Butlerian Jihad had nothing to do with the resurgence in melee combat, which was a consequence of the invention of shield technology derived from the Holtzmann Effect.
@@GonzoTehGreat which get incinerated by lasers, but "bullshit bullshit shoehorn nuke nuke so no use use"
You do a really excellent job of breaking down all complexity of DUNE into an easy to understand narrative 👍👍
It is an interesting thought excercise to consider the implications of combat. I do however vaguely remember the Atreides launching a raid on the Harkonnens using conventional, for that universe, space travel not going to the spacing guild. So it was possible to launch attacks, but it took a lot of time, and you had to be crafty about it and not get caught if memory serves. I could be wrong as it's been a while since I read the original novel
I remember when i was a child my father brings me an F14 tomcat model from a kiosk that has a notebook with interesting facts and talks about the predecesor of the F14, the F111, and surprises me that in vietnam era bombs with parachutes where a thing (actually since ww1 but i was a child and that was my first aproach to this things).
And well years later when my father let me Dune (the book) and we see the film it surprises me all the complot inside the palace to let the shields down... because of that F111 fighter, i remember i ask my father if actually you can Hurt a person using a shield with a sword because its much slower than s bullet, why the harkonen dont use bommers with parachuted bombs? Or thrusters to decelerate in order to trespass the shield.
And i remember i was 10 or 12 and my father was with his open mouth not knowing what to say... then a couple of mins later he sayed: son inteligence its big.
PD i love your channel and has a good name becuz nerd cookies are made with lore and love and its a gud mix :3
Wishful thinking on Herbert’s part that a convention would prohibit anything in warfare
Existential geopolitical threat does. This is not a nice universe.
Yeah, that is an excellent twist on the usual lazerguns and robots type of fighting you most often get in scifi. Although for a good drama there is nothing like a personal duel with simple weapons to spice any story up lol. Cheers for the upload.
Spice
Thank you for making all of these videos! I've been on a binge since watching the movie a few days ago. You do a great job of explaining things.
One thing I don’t understand is this: if protective energy shields render projectile weapons useless, thus forcing all combat to be melee, then why not develop personal armor that also renders melee weapons useless? Surely materials development has progressed to a point where you can make a full suit of armor out of some futuristic metal or fabric.
Guessing most melee weapons in Dune were some sort of highly advanced Vibro Weapon. Which probably used technology in their designs that made it stupid easy to slice through most physical matter.
Making a weapon from the same material will have a good chance at penetrating the armor.
They do use physical armor, you can see it in the movie. But since grappling is so prominent, physical armor wouldn’t be as effective as you think.
That's a good point. I also wonder about fire bombs and napalm against the personal shields. At the very least burning away most of the oxygen in the area would smother someone with a shield, would it not?
@@lostfarmboy4195 Maybe if they were in normal clothes. As for fully uniformed soldiers I imagine their physical wargear's got life support equipment that protects them from secondary envious threats like heat and poisonous gases
Frank Herbert's short story "Cease Fire" sets the stage for the Dune world. In the story, the obsolescence of firearms and explosives forces the military to consider the future of warfare and they are concerned to say the least.
They present the scientist responsible for the development of the life detector into the war winning device with a book. The book is Machievelli's complete works.
The Freman maula pistols were always an enigma. Freman are often described as carrying them but in all the fights they use crysknives. The final battle with the Sardukar is describes as hand to hand on the plains of Arrakeen. Also the ambush of Gurney's smugglers and later the Sardukar infiltrators is described the same. Maula pistols exist but never seem to be used to any real effect.
I think Maula pistols were more for crowd control 😆
Always asumed much of the fighting is off screen in Dune
Very good summation. Concise and comprehensive.
Ahh, that wonderful aroma! Fresh baked Nerd Cookies! I love it. Hello Elaine. I'm in the middle of reading "Children of Dune". I'm learning a lot about the Dune Universe. I obtained the chronicles books through Amazon. I had read the first book many years ago (decades actually) and I really hadn't absorbed the information or story line. I have watched the David Lynch rendition and the SciFi channel mini series numerous times but t actually get the source material at this time in my life is turning out to be perfect. I'm retired, I'm single and have very few distractions. In this atmosphere I'm able to really pay attention to seemingly minor details that are very important in the over all storyline.
I want you to know that I really appreciate your channel due to the fact that it has been viewing your content that inspired me to take the deep dive. Thanks Elaine. Cheers and fair winds.
These Dune videos are pretty cool. Keep up the great work!
I don't recall chemical or biological weapons being mentioned much in the Dune novels, but unless they were also prohibited by the Great Convention, it seems that they would also be quite effective against shields. That would certainly lead to armored, environmental suits if commonly used.
Poison was widely used though, the thought process being dethroning the house at the head of a world or industry so another house can move in with the population and infrastructure intact.
If you saw the 2021 dune movie you would have noticed that the saudakar wear a astronaut like suit with a helmet which I think is meant to counter those tipes of weapons
Sounds to me like like "plot" excuse for not using kamikaze sabateurs, and forcing melee combat (chemical and biological would eliminate the need for melee). Honestly it could be much more simple if instead something small such as shield would not cause nuclear explosion but local explosion instead something like room size or apartment or even building.
Excellent work on a complicated topic. Thank you both.
Story is 40.000 years in future. It is 20.000 years since guild was established.
Nope. Dune is set 10191 AG. Guild is established roughly 11k years from the present (Specifically 110 centuries in the Dune appendix 2 under "space travel") so ~22k
Excellent detailed narrative with perfect music!
I love these dune videos. Keep em coming please!😀
Thank you for helping me understand Dune with your channel
Herbert focused on an interesting aspect of the "arms race" and it's impact on tactics. Currently, almost all of our weapon systems involve driving high speed projectiles at a target (or a slower moving explosive device). What would happen if some sort of technology like a shield made high speed projectiles irrelevant?
We are currently seeing how drone, airpower and precision munitions have changed the way we (The US at least) prosecute war compared to the massed troop and armor formations of say WWII (and how WWII was a leap from the Trench tactics of WWI).
I've wondered though...bombs and explosives. Some throw shrapnel that a shield would deflect, but the pressure wave of an explosion is deadly too. Would a shield stop that as well?
I think so, as the pressure wave is just fast moving molecules of air carrying the force which would be prevented from reaching the user's body. Though it would knock the person over, so impact against the inside of the shield could cause injuries.
@@JustIn-op6oy yeah, it runs into the "iron man issue." What's in motion, tends to stay in motion, so if you get flung across the room and into a wall, the shield might stop, but you won't, until you collide with the shield. It's the same reason football players still get concussions even though they are wearing helmets.
The only way to counter this is to reduce their deceleration, which takes distance. You need to turn an instantaneous stop into a gradual one. There's not really a way to do this either, without either built-in thrusters or making people look like a giant ball of foam.
@@MatthewSmith-sz1yq The other fun is what is anchoring the shield to the person? I.e. if you get knocked across the room and the shield stops at the wall, the person inside the shield is still moving for a fraction of a second. How does the shield generator 'know' where the human body is supposed to stop, so it will protect a person's shoulder, but not try to protect the floor around the feet. Or if the shield generator tried to protect the bottoms of the feet, then the wearer might not have any traction. Shield generators have to be a bit smart to do their job.
Duncan, his schoolings, his two blade style. Beautiful. Do It Nerd Girl, your the Best.
It's not just that the shield blows up either, there is a feed back effect that makes the gun do the same thing. So two nuclear explosions.
Yes it's quite volatile and unpredictable
@@NerdCookies love your channel. Thank you.🙂
Thanks for the support!
That doesn't make sense to me.
@@2Potates if you could just shoot the laz gun at shield and only blows up shield, then no one would use the shields. Making them both cause nuke explosion makes the need for hand to hand combat that much more important.
Another fantastic video!!!
Outstanding commentary!
I dislike the whole nuclear explosion shield thing. Makes room for too many plot holes
With regards to the personal shielding why don't the characters in dune just use like an oxygen tank and set the shielding to prevent projectiles from any speed penetrating it ?
0.o Thats a very good question. I can think it’s probably the extra weight?
@@bryanwettig6177 ikr right I was looking at the sadaukar soldiers …they’d literally be human tanks if they used oxygen tanks in the spacesuits they are practically wearing already
Or armor. The whole idea is fun to play with but crumbles at the slightest scrutiny.
Shields block incoming projectiles that travel fast and armor makes anything slow just scratch it's surface. Invulnerable soldiers.
Also shields blow up in a nuclear explosion when targeted by energy weapons. That's not going to end well. There will always be people willing to die for a cause or just to exact revenge. The threat of retribution means nothing when you have nothing to lose.
Lowering the speed limit of objects allowed to enter the shield might have a higher energy cost for the shield battery (a House shield likely has a nuclear reactor powering it, vs a shield belt only having a battery supply)
As to the shield + lasgun interaction causing an explosion, one way to reduce the chances of someone sneaking in with a timed one-shot lasgun to take down House shields would be if the explosion occurs closer to the smaller system. I.e. personal shield generator hit by a ship-mounted lasgun = personal shield belt exploding, while a hand-held lasgun fired at a starship shield = handheld lasgun exploding. You then can get into surge protectors, dampeners, etc so a lasgun that hits a shield might start to feedback but instead dump the energy instead of exploding. Atreides lasguns and shields might have a lot of dampeners so there is less risk when firing them. Harkonnen setups would have larger emitters and fewer safeties, so when feedback does occur the Harkonnen ships are more likely to explode, but their larger setups mean they are less likely to hit something near their size. Also, the energy released in the explosion would be proportional to the energy in the exploding system. So a handheld lasgun against a personal shield will have a small explosion (but still nuclear in nature), while capital ships fighting each other result in very big explosions.
Because that would make too much sense. Kind of like sending one guy with a lazegun or using long range lazeguns to take out an army of shielded “let’s fight with pointy sticks!” Guys at the cost of one guy.
Awesome video since a lot of people would be interested in how a defensive weapon instead of offensive shaped the course of warfare in the Dune universe! Would we be able to get a video on Norma Cenva and her contributions since she has a pretty fascinating story arc, probably only bested by Duncan Idaho and his iterations and of course Leto II.
We need to convince (probably not going to be too tough) James Mcavoy to return as the God Emperor Leto II. He's big Dune fan and from what I have seen this will not be a box office flop. It stands to reason that WB will want to milk that shit for every penny. Now that Star Wars has become an SVU victim by the big D it's the perfect opportunity for Dune to final get the justice it deserves.
Dennis Villeneuve your your our only hope.
There's a lot of discussion about the viability of Franks universe as it pertains to weaponry and warfare.
This is fair, since he goes to great length to describe the intricacies of these things.
However, if you are a Frank Herbert fan and not just solely a fan of his Dune books you may realize that his focus has always been on psychology, psychotropics, and biology.
He's a weird and wonderful guy 😄
RIP
You mentioned "Firearms" several times, while I believe the Dune books refer to them as "Projectile Weapons". I interpreted this a mechanical, rather than powder based weapon. Obviously, I could be way off base. Love these videos!!!
You are wrong, as it means:
Cannons - heavy artillery projectile launchers used by House Harkonnen
Dartguns - small projectile weapons used by Assassins
Fremen gun
Grenades
Handguns - archaic weapons used by the Facedancers
Maula pistol - spring-loaded mechanical handgun for short-to-medium range targets
Rocket launchers - heavy artillery used by the Fremen and Sardaukar
Slow-pellet Stunner - launches projectile that slows down to penetrate shield and stun target
Tiny projectors of poison darts - miniature weapon used by Assassins
A simple solution to Shields would have been firearms where the bullet slows on impact and passes through the shield then it explodes
Then there is always napalm
OMGods. I just found your channel and now I'm an addict.
I have only just now discovered this channel. I thank you for your excellent work. And yes indeed, I have both subscribed and rang the damn Bell. 👍
Thank you!!!
It’s another example of the singular genius behind such banal first and last names as Frank and Herbert.
Most science fiction imagines a future where some technology enables bigger weapons, longer journeys and other fantastical feats of scale.
Herbert had a better grasp of history. He saw how armor evolved over time until fire arms rendered it obsolete. Only now with advanced materials is armor resurfacing hubdreds of years later.
Likewise castles evolved over thousands of years until cannons then powered flight and unmanned armed vehicles rendered any such pretense ludicrous.
Herbert posited that ranged weapons could become obsolete!
Then he constructs the whole arrangements of Houses, Emperor, CHOAM and treaty to provide a proper way to wage war, so that way can be subverted.
I would like to make a request for a video on the Bashar, Miles Teg. And his augmented speed.
Or alternatively, one on the Honored Matres (quite a broad topic, but...).
Since they are going back to melee it's strange that they dont use some kind of plate armor that you can't slowly stab through.
Apparently the blade was ahead of armor technology at the time
Love this channel. I've only found you recently after binging quinns ideas
😊 thank you!
@@NerdCookies 😇
Love your videos with detailed content in this series. you have a soothing voice. Also music is beautiful, can you share what artist/title is please. TY!!
Thanks! Music Credits are in the video description.
That was excellent
The shop where I bought the book put it in the Fantasy section, even though they had a Science Fiction section as well. At first, I was surprised, but half way into the book, I was like "that kinda make a lot of sense now."
Your work and Quinn's Ideas are the best short form resources on Dune I have found so far. Very good analysis.
Thank you!
In the first dune book, during the destruction of the Atreides' forces. It is mentioned that the Harkonnen used artillery, which I took to mean "Canons." This would make since in that a large mass could overwhelm shields.
It could be any indirect fire weapon. Canons and mortars is my guess as well. There is no defeating the shield through direct force though. The Shield is a Holtzman field, not an energy barrier that can be directly opposed. So if you shoot at a wall with a shield in front of it, the shell would stop at the point of contact, then eventually drop through it a minute later (if landing on top) or in front of it (if shot horizontally). This is why slug throwers had no value in personal combat. Not only did they not get through the shield, the target didn't even feel the mass impact against the shield of "other space."
Heat, Photons (light), and Electricity were the three taboo weapon types against shields. They couldn't destroy the shield, they destroyed the shield generator that created the enveloping field. Rocks, poison gas, and knives all worked fine, as long as you kept pushing (dropping?) them through the field during the "blinking" that allowed air in.
The Atreides soldiers retreated into caves and the artillery was used to seal them in.
The Baron specifically stated that he was a genius because nobody had used artillery in millenia because shields rendered it useless, he only used it because he knew that Dr Yueh would disable the house shields, thus making artillery viable again.
While stunners were used as a ballistic counter to shields, I think realistically warfare would use high-velocity projectiles designed to slow down from air resistance to stunner speeds. Rather than merely incapacitate the target from sheer mass, the projectile could have a shaped charge designed to explode on impact, piercing armer with a super-heated jet of plasma/molten copper. Ideally such a weapon system would have a ballistic calculator and ranging device to determine the proper velocity from a given target for the projectile to reach them at adequate speeds, but such thinking machines are banned. If not an explosive, a munition with a hunter-killer payload would be perfect for long-range assassinations, assuming it could be controlled remotely at such distances.
Yes, slow pellet stunners with explosives instead of poison darts
I enjoyed this video. It was very interesting that even as Humanity possessed numerous Weapons of Mass Destruction, Hand to Hand combat became the way of war. But I have always felt that shields are to dangerous to wield. Look into the eyes of a suicide bomber, and a martyr and see the same expression...
Nerd you are the best
I'm sorry, I know the idea behind Dune isn't to put an emphasis on technology and more on the characters and their struggle, but I wonder about the limitations of the Holtzman shields. They stop ballistic slugs, and laser weapons result in a nuclear explosion. But what about other forms of energy? Like plasma, or hard light? Also, what kind of laser do they stop or is it all forms of lasers? It's just something that bugs me. Again, I'm sorry, that's just the way I think.
In that universe, those weapons were not invented. Probably because the theory of those weapons didn't exist when Herbert wrote the books.
But from what I got, that universe has gone stagnant on technology, it was just seen as almost unnecessary to improve technology.
The only people that seemed active in developing technology were the IX and the Tleilaxu. Neither seemed to be actively developing weapons directly.
Every thing about that universe seems to be about improving humans rather than technology, from breeding programs, to spice use and even the flesh vats... Human Genetics is the real weapon, so new physical weapons became less important.
If personal shields are only vulnerable to slow melee attacks, wouldn’t combatants double up with conventional armor since it would be extremely difficult to generate the force needed to penetrate steel, Kevlar or similar physical media at low velocities?
It was not the sound of a shield generator that enraged the sandworms it was the holtzman field itself.
dunno why it never really occurred to me before. but if you couldn't really use shields on Arrakis because of the worms, why no lasguns? Is it one of things where simply no one is willing to risk it regardless of the odds?
Its been a while since I read the books, but I think there was limited use of lasguns on Dune, but one of the reasons they had fallen out of favour was that they were inefficiant
@@dougsmith3499 Plus the same effect that drove the shield was also used to levitate objects, such as a tram or elevator. Every building that can get hit by a stray shot is a nuclear jack in the box.
When I was watching the new movie, I remember thinking how me in 2021 seeing these new terrifying weapons of war that exist 20,000 years in the future must feel similar to how an Ancient Roman or Egyptian would feel if they ever saw nuclear bombs or hunter drones.
please cover honored matres and fish talkers. they seem to be very fascinating groups of elite warriors
6:18: isn't this a copy of some other sci-fi movie that we have all seen? Or did that movie copy this?
We saw the atrieties wearing overlapping plate armor at the beginning but we never see it in combat. Conveniently all the close combat takes place with easily pierced clothing. With advanced armor and an energy shield how would blades have any hope of penetrating? Are their blades like power weapons in 40k or like vibro blades in other SciFi?
If you mean in the new movie, when they got attacked, they were caught off-guard in the middle of the night, and sabotaged from within. You can see closely there are troops in armour, but a lot of them didn't have time to equip for warfare properly.
And regarding the penetration, think of it like the days of old. Swords, halberds, pikes and maces could penetrate armour after several blows, even knight armour.
So it may not be invulnerable, but it will protect you for a few direct hits. Not to mention the most important weak point, no matter what armour is worn, is usually always the neck, and it's difficult to protect without limiting movement. So even in heavy, inpenetrable armour, your neck is still the main target.
(Also yeah, I assume swords are made of a very sharp alloy)
To be honest, I have never read a single one of Herbert's novels.
If crusher ships can be used to overwhelm shielded structures, could that tactic not also work against shielded ground troops? If the crushers are able to employ kinetic energy against targets through sheer mass, getting hit with a cannonball or a boulder would at least knock a man down, right? Are explosives then still useful against clustered groups in the same way grenades are presently?
Could someone with an active shield take a air tank on their back, then set their shield to block all particles no matter the speed and then become an invincible tank?
SO IN ORDER TO SIT IN A CHAIR, YOU HAD TO SLOWLY SIT DOWN BECAUSE IF YOU PLOP LIKE A COUCH POTATO; THE CHAIR WOULD BE "SUDDENLY" DISPLACED FROM UNDER YOU...
I love it, hand to hand fighting is the best, May the best warrior win.... I loves the movie, I love the drama.
Why not just wear metal armour as well and be virtually invulnerable?
Also why blades? Why not bludgeons used the same way they were against medieval plate?
Blunt weapons rely on velocity to do their damage
Shields negatate the velocity
@@jamesricker3997 They use strikes with arms and legs during combat so it obviously doesn't work how you think. A hammer doesn't need to penetrate to send your brain rattling around inside your skull.
As usual, I loved your video as I do all of them but this one was particularly interesting for its mentioning the Holtzmann shield effect because I've had far too long to think about it.
I first read Dune when I was fifteen years old and I was struck by what seemed the excessive "neatness" of the Holtzmann shield in that it created the basis for a super-advanced society that allowed the classically corny "cover image" of science fiction where some muscular someone stood at bay with a sword in one hand and a firearm of some sort in the other.
Looked at superficially, this would be the case, but, if you take a deeper look, while adhering to the original novel, the Holtzmann shield effect becomes more than an excuse for a science-fiction trope to become a surprisingly logical (plot) device.
Please bear with me for a moment. Some of this is a bit technical.
The two main characteristics of the Holtzmann shield are that it acts as a barrier to physical objects possessing mass (i.e., it doesn't block light altogether or change its frequency), and, when a laser intersects it, it creates an energy release with the magnitude of a nuclear explosion.
The first part is interesting because since Dune's publication, the first, inertia-based effect has been used repeatedly in works of science fiction (e.g., the personal shields employed by the go'auld system lords), while the second has barely been explored at all. That last, second part, is interesting in that it may be that Herbert's vision is even deeper than has previously been noted.
Bear with me again, because this is where things get kind of thorny.
As a shield against projectiles, and blades moving above a given speed, the Holtzmann shield effect can be thought of as a sort of “inertial filter”-almost as a thing which uses energy to create the kind of threshold boundary that one sees when a sufficiently fast-moving object like a bullet strikes water which, when impacted by something above a certain velocity ceases to act like a Newtonian fluid and exhibits the characteristics of a solid object; creating an effect where high-velocity projectiles shatter at the water’s surface rather than striking targets even small distances below it.
Like many effects in science fiction, the “how” of this is answered by “and then a miracle happened and a technology was born,” but the “why” if it can be seen as a field-effect with a strong, direct effect on inertia and momentum, which in Dune translates into the need for infighting with blinding speed is needed to overcome overwhelm an opponent’s defense in order to deliver a blow slow enough to pass through a shield.
With this view of the Holtzmann shield’s way of working under our belts, we find ourselves with what might very well be an explanation for the explosive consequences of having a weapons-grade laser intersecting a Holtzmann shield: Nuclear fusion.
Nuclear detonations are of one of two types: fission of unstable heavy metallic isotopes like Uranium, or Plutonium and the fusion of very light atoms in to larger atoms in a high-energy environment.
in examining the Holzmann shield’s explosive function, the first detonation cause is obviously impossible since no one is carrying around big blocks of fissile material, so the energy release must come from nuclear fusion and it is here that a wild thought experiment becomes possible: “What if, by increasing inertia at the atomic scale, the Holtzmann shield effect, created an area of sufficient density in the gas in it to cause atoms that are not ordinarily amenable to fusion to fuse with a substantial release of energy”?
It’s odd, but the scientific basis is there.
Current experiments in creating fusion reactor technology are based either on magnetic bottles strong enough to hold superheated, ionized plasma, or on “inertial confinement” where, by dumping enough energy into fusible materials of a sufficient density, scientists hope to be able to create a sufficient number of fusion events within the system to go beyond the “break-even” point and achieve a net release of energy that is greater than the energy needed to power the reactor.
Given a field effect that made it impossible for ionized atomic nuclei to fly away from one another due to their same-charge repulsion, the energy cost of producing energy via fusion would be substantially reduced and this leaves us with the question of whether or not a volume of gas being struck, ionized, and heated would produce a net energy output and Herbert’s answer, if he thought of this solution, is obviously “yes.”
This could be used to explain a lot of of the energy technology in Dune because, given a Holtzmann shield effect *and* a laser with a tunable output, controlled energy release using nothing more than gasses at atmospheric pressures would be as simple as building the machine and using air for fuel.
I think of this as a secret testament to the power of Herbert’s vision.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the hunter-seeker that attacked Paul in Dune something which killed by tunneling through flesh following channels of some kind within the body, and not as a sort of Gom Jabbar carrier?
It's too bad the Dune story teased us about the remnants of the Machine Empire in the worlds of the Scattering. The Honored Matres encountered some of the "lost" technology and were chased by the Machine Empire. Daniel and Marty were retconned into AI...most likely Omnius and Erasmus, setting the stage for a comeback of the Machine Empire. The Machine Empire makes the Honored Matres look like pussy cats. They've had a long time to develop weapons and technology to defeat shield technology, lasguns, and nuclear weapons.
Against the remnants of the Machine Empire, humans no matter how genetically perfect they are would be no match for AI Silicon Life soldiers which would have significantly faster reflexes and greater computation power than any mentats. Furthermore, the Machine Empire could use smart projectiles that reprogram themselves once hitting a Shield. They can be slowed down or move faster depending on the Shield setting. In other words, the Machine Empire could use smart projectile assault rifles and Shields which could use frequency hopping and real-time tactical adjustments which would be faster than any human could operate their shield. However, hand-to-hand combat is an inferior strategy to using planet busters and sun killers. The Honored Matres stole some of the Machine Empire technology, including planet busters and just that one weapon wreaked havoc. The Nuclear weapons of the Great Houses (Former) now controlled by the Bene Gesserit would be no match for the Machine Empire which use Scalar weapons (Quantum Bombs) which literally are probability weapons which negate the local existence of matter and energy; don't worry there is no violation of the conservation of energy as the energy is dispersed via quantum fields.
EMP weapons can be mitigated or negated by the Machine Empire's super-advanced EMP-hardened silicon, special shields, and protective armor. Furthermore, the Machine Empire has the technology to project fields which act as neutron dampers preventing runaway nuclear reactions. Lasguns will not cause nuclear explosions when striking a shield as well as Bene Gesserit nuclear weapons. When tactical considerations require human prisoners for interrogation and harvesting, the Machine Empire will utilize neutron damper fields and use AI Silicon Life soldiers equipped with smart projectiles and lasguns to control the battlefield. In certain cases, they will use enormous AI tanks, using gravity nullification for propulsion, equipped with overwhelming firepower to reduce strongholds.
Let loose the Necrons! Ahh I know GW got most of their ideas from Dune.
The Dune Saga is far more entertaining to have explained by someone like you, rather than having to read the incredibly dense books for myself and extrapolate all the consequences of every event mentioned therein.
I liked this video. I would have, however, liked to see you take it into the books after God Emperor of Dune. Warfare evolved greatly in the wake of Leto II's rule, the Scattering, and the development of Ixian navigation machines.
How so
I like his take and I'm curious about the hunter seeker.
It's fast yet slow...?
I want all the picture you use for your dune videos please tell me how you got them
Wouldn’t it be logical to equip the sardaukar with suspender belts? Imagine how fast they would be!
This shield laser thing is kind of stupid, you can basicly nuke anything from the distance if target just use shield or just use one guy and destroy whole units with the laser. It would be more logical to ban shields than lasers or just ban both and use projectile weapons.
2:44 - Couldn't the shield have a turbo setting where it doesn't allow any matter at all to pass for 30 seconds to a minute, then shut off for a second or so to exchange air?
One thing about shields in Dune really bothers me. If they can be set up to be impenetrable, but people allow slow objects to go through as not to simply suffocate, why not equipping themselves with breathing apparatus? Even today we have required technology to build a suit with enough oxygen for at least few hours.
If shields can be turned on and off at will, or have their setting adjusted, a soldier with breathing apparatus could turn the shield off when not needed, as to preserve the oxygen reserves, and turn it on during the combat, making him literally impossible to kill by conventional means. Even if having invincible shied around the person prevented contact with outside world, with things as simple as effectively holding onto objects, like weapons, the shield itself would become a weapon. Assuming one soldier had in interoperable shield with oxygen reserves, and the enemy had a "classic" shield, being invulnerable to any attacks would allow the user to safely grapple, twist and break limbs or choke and suffocate the opponent, or simply throw powerful punches, if the enemy didn't use any shield at all.
On the other hand of everyone were using impenetrable shields the warfare would come down to war of attrition, with both sides wrestling each other, quite literally, to have the best possible position/body lock, once their oxygen reserves run out, so they could strike with an advantage. They would also try to tire each other to make the opponent use more oxygen while they exert themselves.
Unless there's some logical explanation to it, that I'm not aware of, of course.
Such a soothing voice you have. You could tell me we're about to get nuked and I'd be like" All cool, I'll wait for the shrooms to pop out"
never read the books, but i hope we are gonna see a lot of these advanced warriors being overwhelmed by a milion angry plebs with lasguns, because that is exactly how an empire like this would fall.
Came here after some friends watched the movie and said nothing about the warfare made sense. I found them overly nitpicky, and thanks to this vid i am pleased to find out that they were also wrong 😂
Glad I could help!
Seems a bit nuts to have shield technology that results in a nuclear explosion when hit my beam weapons. You could easily annihilate whole armies and fleets from a distance.
in the end its the ye old knife fight
If only this video addressed exactly that at around 5:50.
theres a feedback effect on the lazeguns that can make them also explode.
@@saltMagic terrible design flaw that.
@@RobinJohnstonphotography seems to work fine in the setting.
I never figured out why people wouldn't just be setting lasguns to fire on a timer or remotely. IIRC the explosion was described as something that could be confused with a nuclear weapon, but technically different. If it is forbidden as well I guess that might work, maybe I'll come across it on a reread.
GLORIOUS MELEE COMBAT BROTHERS!!!
Good video 😁
I've always wondered why the use of lasguns against shielded targets wasn't taken advantage of. I'll admit it's been many years since I last read Dune but I think it was always a question in my mind. I know that the Great Convention prohibited the use of atomics specifically, but it had seemed to me that this action would be a loophole.
Very possible that I missed something. Likely in fact.
On the outside chance that any superfan here knows of a point in the book(s) where this is discussed I would appreciate a reply with a location so that I could re-read it.
Thanks!
so is it mass or speed that was repelled? because if speed then the photons for seeing would e blocked
So it’s like so the duels between the Nobel families are like Mortal Kombat fights.
I like Dunes take on war because it feels more personal
Can the shield able to stop all particles if they wanted too? Cus if so what's stopping them from getting soldiers with an oxygenators so they don't have to let slow moving particles in. Also the shield being able to be detonated sounds like something that should easily be taken advantage of, like a very cheap to produce nuke, this shield sounds more like a bomb vest than anything else, like it fails against gun cus it explodes and knife go through it no problems as long as it's slow, who thought this shield thing was a good idea.
The vendetta part seems heavily inspired by the Albania calun code
Sardaukar troops fought in threes. Captain Aramsham and his men were picked out not by Halleck or Stilgar. Untill they saw the way these infiltrators fought "It smacks of Salsua secundus and Imperial traning.
So why not to use laser as area denier tool? Critical approach points would be irradiated by continuous as well as some random-direction laser beams. Should you try to enter the area, you would trigger nuclear explosion thus you would be one to breach the Convention, not the defender.
I would like to see a video about warfare after God Emperor of Dune
Pretty easy to be a one shot assassin in Dune. Shoot someone with your las gun and boom. Everything goes up like a tac nuke attack. One dead soldier wipes out a household. Harkonnen don't play.
It does happen in-lore. Just rarely.