The Surprisingly Heated Debate on Whether Hot Water Freezes Faster Than Cold Water
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2024
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Sources:
Burridge, Henry & Linden, Paul, Questioning the Mpemba Effect: Hot Water Does Not Cool More Quickly Than Cold, Scientific Reports, Issue 6, 2016, www.ncbi.nlm.n...
Mpemba, E.B. & Osborne, D.G, Cool? Physics Education, 1969, Vol.4, iopscience.iop...
Auerbach, David, Supercooling and the Mpemba Effect: When Hot Water Freezes Quicker Than Cold, Max Planck Institute, Göttingen, 1995, robot-tag.com/e...
Elton, Daniel & Spencer, Peter, Pathological Water Science - Four Examples and What They Have in Common, arxiv.org/ftp/...
Chown, Marcus, Why Water Freezes Faster After Heating, New Scientist, June 2006, www.eurekalert...
The Mpemba Effect, The Colour Blue, web.archive.or...
Jeng, Monwhea, Can Hot Water Freeze Faster Than Cold Water? Department of Physics, University of California, November 1998, math.ucr.edu/h...
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Nice beard
Do a show on the ancient nuclear reactor in Oklo, Africa
I may be tripping but how did you post a four day old comment on a video that you posted today?
These vpn commercials are so bad. Ugg
looool so in order to be woke, you have to take some random african and say "aha, they discovered this"
hilarious . im sure no white person had discovered this before. or asian person.
I live in Finland, we can throw boiling water in the air in winter and it will freeze before it hits the ground. We call it the "why the fck do we live here" effect.
And I live somewhere much colder. We all have our "why do we live here" memes. Personally I'd much rather live here than somewhere oppressively hot year-round like Florida. That sounds like hell to me.
HAHAHAHAH!!!!
Canada, too.
I'm at 8,200ft in the Rocky Mountains Northern Colorado and we do this every winter for the kids, they get a kick out of it.
@@knurlgnar24 oh don't worry, we love our land, just look at what we did to the Vikings, Russians and Germans when they tried to take it from us.
Maybe the true frozen water was the friends we made along the way
Stfu. Makes no sense.
@@theenzoferrari458 That's the point
Never expecting you here..
You're either truly evil or the most beautiful soul on here. 🤨😉😁
Omg get out
and then come right back as the guest of honor
I honestly feel like I know less about this subject now than before.
Same
That means you've actually learned something
In short, it's a more complex problem than it seems at the first glance.
I wanted to add something more, but I think it says enough =D
Welcome to the dunning cruger effect
IKR!
I think that scientifically speaking, I can empirically say this; Water freezes eventually... :P
There's probably some corner of science that can prove this wrong
Totally....When it's super cooled it actually doesn't freeze solid unless disturbed....so NO! If you take a bottle of supercooled water and slam it on the counter it will crystalize before your eyes. There are many UA-cam videos demonstrating this.
@@apophisxo4480 Mythbusters proved this too
@@apophisxo4480 eventually it will stop being in that state and be frozen
This is why I boil my ice-cream after I get home from the grocery store
yuck LOL
Hahahahahaha
McFlurry is boiled every day to sanitise it
That will ruin the texture
@@andreworders7305 well it's better then condensed water....
So basically water cooling has a lot of RNG, and people only remember the instances of rare bad RNGs that stood out over history.
no, cooling has a constant rate, the turning into solid can be quite random, depending on how clean your water is
RNG = Random Number Generator to devs like me... can't see past my work jargon... so I googled it... my same definition came up but not much else... grammatically my understanding of RNG doesn't work how you used it, suggesting that my understanding is not how your using it. So care to enlighten me as to what's meant here by RNG.
@@binaryglitch64 Colloquially, to say something is "RNG" is to say something is due to random chance.
I hadn't finished the video yet... you do mean random number generator you're just not using it in a manner that is grammatically correct. Let me guess this is something the gaming community started doing.
@@binaryglitch64 Yeah it's something the gaming community started doing. You know the phrase "an apron" isn't correct, either. It used to be "a napron" but people kept saying it wrong over time so it stuck. Language do be like that.
I use hot water in my ice trays not because it freezes faster but the ice cubes tend to be clearer.
That's because heating the water removes a lot of the dissolved gas. No dissolved gas, no micro-bubbles, hence clear ice.
I dont believe you.
I use distilled water to make my ice clear.
@@c.l.7525 when ice sculptors create the blocks of ice they work with, they either or both boil the water to remove dissolved gases or use a machine that slightly shakes the water as it freezes. Both methods result in clear ice
Also it melts slower
All those effects, supercooling, dissolved gasses, thermal contact improvement from melted frost, etc, all useful, but ignoring the most unique thing about water - the fact it expands when it freezes - I think this is the key, and if you compared temperature drops to hot oil or perhaps wax (if you needed a state change), you'd see.
When a figure skater skates on ice, it is partially so slippery because the increased pressure from the skate causes the ice to turn into liquid again (still at below 0deg). So when ice freezes in a container, if in theory that container was infinitely strong, then the water might never freeze (because it has to become 4% bigger to form the normal kind of ice, at super high pressures it could form a different kind of ice).
So my bet is that the rigidity of the container is the key (and I've performed a few experiments which seem to work out). If it is soft and plastic, it easily expands and so cold water beats hot water to freezing. If it is very rigid and metal, some of the water turning to ice causes other parts of the container to have local pockets of quite high pressure, retarding their state change. Hot water's eddy currents are sufficient 'stirring' to stop localised pressure pockets forming. This is also important because ice is a decent thermal insulator, so even a small amount of mixing helps a lot (you get the central temperature lower before the sides get extra cold and form ice insulation).
If anyone wants to finally solve this, here are your steps:
1) Use usual tap water (some impurities)
2) Make the hot water boil for a couple minutes, then cool to your reference temp (80 degC?) and have the cold water be 5deg C
3) Have 16 vessels, 8 open top rigid metal (thick pipe), 8 silicone cups, 8 stirring rods
4) Fill like this: Hot Water Metal, Cold Water Metal, Hot Water Silicone, Cold Water Silicone, Hot Water Metal (+stirring rod), Cold Water Metal (+stirring rod), Hot Water Silicone (+stirring rod), Cold Water Silicone (+stirring rod), Hot Oil/Wax Metal, Cold Oil/Wax Metal, Hot Oil/Wax Silicone, Cold Oil/Wax Silicone, Hot Oil/Wax Metal (+stirring rod), Cold Oil/Wax Metal (+stirring rod), Hot Oil/Wax Silicone (+stirring rod), Cold Oil/Wax Silicone (+stirring rod)
5) Ones with stirring rods, stir every 5 or 10 mins. Optionally you could add stirring rods to tall, and they could 'test' if its fully frozen with slight movement.
6) You should ideally have 16 insulated tubs with thermometers to place these 16 devices into once the experiment has run for a set amount of time (around the time the first 'successfully freezes'). By noting the biggest temperature drop, you can understand more about whether supercooling has occurred (big temp drop even though it didn't freeze), or whether partial freezing had occurred (liquid core).
7) You can run it a few times, for different durations, keeping a log of freezer average temp and changing the positions of all the cups.
My theory is that for oil and probably wax, cold will beat hot every time by quite a margin. Stirring rod vessels will win every time over non-stirring, hot or cold. That hot water with no stirring will freeze faster than cold water with no stirring, but hot water with stirring will lose to cold water with stirring. Lastly, you'll find that hot water with no stirring silicone will lose to cold water with no stirring silicone (because of less pressure buildup). Remember to compare carefully as there are different insulative values of silicone/metal, and different heat carrying capacity of oil/wax to water, but that does not hurt our experiment (kinda running 4 independent experiments).
Please give me a shoutout in your Nobel prize ceremony! :P And if you do it, report back and thank you for saving me a weekend out of frustrated curiosity!
I was born and went to school in South-Central Alaska. When I mentioned to my eighth grade teacher that a hot liquid froze faster than a liquid at room temperature, he did not believe me. He patiently explained that this was not logical. We did not have a refrigerator or freezer at home, so this just meant setting the pan outside in winter.
I just figured the more active molecules of hot water contributed to this anomaly.
Wasn't that the explanation given when those videos went viral one or two years ago? The ones of people throwing boiling water in the air and it freezing instantly in some artic region I cannot remember 🤔
If you disperse the water by throwing it into the air it would chill rapidly in freezing air so it should freeze surely.
@@maninashedandyp I'm pretty sure it only works with hot/boiling water though, unless you're in some crazy cold spots. I've done it on cold nights (-10F) and it works with the boiling water but not so much with the room temp water
I had the same problem with my 4th grade teacher for our science fair. I always said it "can" freeze faster, but she gave me the lowest passing grade just because I did it, but said I did the control wrong (of 4 tests...) and she can't accept a false conclusion.
@@yuumain264 look her up and demand a grade change
This was recommended to me right as I was pulling my breakfast-beer out of the freezer.
breakfast beer? I like your style
Nice 🍻
Here I am waking up at 3 AM and thinking the same thing lmao
@@kylealexander7024 Better get after it!
Beer is made from cereal grains so it is the same thing, right?
Vid starts at 1:27
Thank goodness for fast forward.
Not all superheros wear capes.
Thank you.
nice one
We tested this in Physics class, and the answer is: It Depends.
What we saw: hot water cools more rapidly than tepid water (to a point), but only if the container shape allows for strong convection currents.
Hot water rises to the top, cooler water sinks to the bottom.
A wine bottle would be terrible; all the hots end up at one end, the colds at the bottom, not much mixing.
A drinks pitcher is about right; tall enough for temperature gradients to form, wide enough for the currents to mix.
Evaporative cooling of warm water off the top is real, but tiny.
The thing is, once the mixing has more or less equalized the temperature of the water, the convection currents slow to a crawl!
Hot water does cool down faster, but once the formerly hot water has equalized to the same temp as 'tap water', they both freeze the same.
Note: Boiling the water first helps it freeze faster!
Air dissolves into water, air is an impurity in the water.
Impure water has a lower freezing point...that's where those bubble in your ice come from!
Boil your water, make crystal-clear ice faster!
I actually learned about the clear ice thing trying to make the perfect whiskey ice. I eventually just switched chilled granite cubes. Seemed to work better.
Will you please explain this to those poor scientists . Then again maybe not because the more papers they write on the CONTROVERSY the more money they get to study it !
No need to boil water to make clear ice. In the freezing process, if you used a cooler with the lid removed will push all bubbles and dissolved salts out and leave a clear lattice which when melted produces water with a TDS of zero. It's like distilling water but achieving it using a freezer. Slow process though.
Simon’s face to beard ratio appears to be dropping my the day.
In 4th grade back in the late 90s after noticing that my hot liquids froze faster than my cold ones I did this as an experiment for the science fair and my science teacher was like not possible then became semi obsessed with proving me wrong for the rest of the year and kept getting the same results that hot water froze faster.
Not in a crappy freezer
An interesting 14 minutes to say I don't know.
No, they do know. The 'Mpemba effect' doesn't exist.
That's the scientific method for you.... the debate has been on for decades
@@YasirKhalid1 there is no debate. This is 101 stuff
trick question: hot water doesn't freeze. it has to be turned into cold water, first.
Such is implicitly implied given that it is being frozen. Still, I understand your need to "seem" clever.
@@HangTimeDeluxe it's a joke
@Will O If you rapidly decompress the boiling water it can, or at least some that is left behind could be frozen.
Reverse sublimation? Hot water vaporizes to gas in dry freezing air, then reverse-sublimates directly to ice, never going through a cold-water phase? That's how water-ice aircraft contrails form.
@@christobalcolon6601 it's still cold, though.
I can say, without a doubt, that when I make ice cream, it freezes faster on a hot day. I know that the rock salt catalyst makes this a moot point in this argument. I do have a neat story though. Back in the 80's, I lived with a guy who was working on his Doctorate in plasma physics. He actually helped develop the X-ray laser. Anyway, I came home from work one hot summer day to find him waiting for me. I had our other room mate with me, as usual. He asked if we wanted a beer. Of course. But he had a weird request. He had had beer in freezer for a period of time that he had worked out. He handed me a bottle of beer, told me to just hold it in my hand and not open it. He handed my buddy a bottle of beer, but made him hold it by the cap only, with two fingers. He then said, "We all open on count of three." As he got to three, he reached in the freezer, grabbed and opened a beer. The beer I held in my hand for 30 or so seconds was perfect. The one my buddy held by the cap turned to slush. The one he opened without touching first froze solid. I somehow feel that this is related. Something about convection and conveyance. I dunno, I suck at physics.
Probably related, but fits better in the debate about whether or not hot beer freezes faster than cold beer. Good story.
I'd bet the introduction of air or the breaking of the vacuum seal is what allowed the rapid change. Pretty friggin cool the guy figured out the timing for getting the temp just right.
this is nucleation when a liquid is super cooled (below its usual freezing temp) you can do it with bottles of carbonated drinks to annoy your friends, hand them the bottle and then flick it, itll freeze solid lol
@@AlexR_44 if it's fizzy at all especially, when the pressure drops so will the temperature
This reads like the sort of thing that Brian Brushwood would do to Jason Murphy...
Another episode where I feel smarter for watching yet dumber for watching. Thanks
That episode in which Simon describes the ultimate "well, ackshually" competition among scientists.
Lining in Northern US (MN/WI) we have long known that in below 0F, hot water pipes freeze before cold water pipes. Happens every cold winter because hot water heater causes desolved oxygen to leave the water
I believe You've got something there with the dissolved oxygen.
I have a hypothesis:
If freezing can be said to occur when the molecules exist in the state where they have locked in place and crystallized, and molecules which are warmer can be said to exist in more places in a shorter span of time; then perhaps molecules which are more active have a *CHANCE* of finding their freezing position more quickly. Otherwise, conforming to known physics about heat distribution.
Given the things people have discovered about quantum theory in the recent past, it’s entirely possible the Mpemba effect relies on physics we don’t understand, yet.
I think to test this, one would need to control these things:
The precise temperature of water when introduced to its cooling environment,
The precise volume of water at that same moment,
The activity of the cooling device in said space, so that we are not wondering whether each test received an active/passive status of said device,
Varied experiments where each varied-temperature volume was tested separately or all at once, requiring that each temperature be tested twice.
(This last one would also need to test the locations of the volumes of water, accounting for temperature variations within the cooling box; although this will seem to assure that all volumes will be given the same active/passive status of said cooling device.)
Then we can start introducing other conditions; such as the amount of frost buildup inside the cooling container, purity of the water, insulators on water containers, etc.
Sadly, no.
Crystalization is a huge field in science. Freezing doesn't equal cooling. It's all about nucleation in the end. I have personally studied super cooling at my uni as part of my degree and this "phenomenon" is just a basic misunderstanding about phase transitions and their related temps. The statistical chance of a molecule finding a nucleus does depend on velocity, but this can go both ways. Warmer molecules might actually struggle to "stick" in some scenarios. This is a non issue here since the temps are so close to each other and mean velocities are virtually equal
Pathological science. A polite way of saying, "You lying!"
A scientist laughing at research and blindly regurgitating the dogma they were trained to memorize? 🤔 Some things never change 😅
@@xp8969 ... do you actually know any scientists? As in, PhD level researchers? Because I do, and they are the complete opposite of what you are saying.
@@SelectHawk
I think the problem is that there are more people willing to use the debates of scientific literature as a cudgel in the halls of politics and twitter.
Often times, the real science being done is far less conclusive than the lunch table einsteins want to insist - and it is the people not involved in the research and data who have the time to comment.
This often goes for both 'sides' of a discussion - though I would often argue that the side arguing from a point of ignorance is the superior one - IE: the ones saying "I don't think your scientists know what they think they do." Simply because that is the most probable of explanations.
As to the original post... I don't think it is so much as saying "you are lying." Lying is a very specific act of knowing something is not true and stating it as though it is. A lie would be throwing a ball across the room and then claiming you did not do so.
Believing something that is not true, or arguing for something that is not true, is different than a lie. It can simply be someone is wrong, mistaken, etc. Someone arguing that the world is flat may legitimately believe their own assessment proves such. They are not lying, they are just not going to accept that their own observations and/or intuition are wrong - how committed they are to this would be interesting to see - IE - if we were to take them up into space and show them a round earth - how would they deal with it?
... Although I often like to invert this and wonder how people would deal with it if they went up and saw a flat earth. That is rather unlikely - but in the world of science, discovery, etc - it is not proper to accuse someone of lying.
Unless we get to certain aspects of statistical analysis, that is an art of lying to one's self that useless information can be rendered into conclusive evidence. I jest a bit - but statistical analysis should always be taken with the whole truck of salt. You can make anything statistically significant with enough data to argue with.
I say this because the concept of "lies" has been abused in politics and society of late. To accuse someone of being a liar is to accuse them of knowingly and deliberately deceiving you or others. They are not merely telling you something they believe to be true, but are, out of contempt for those around them or fear of one's own self, stating something they know to be false.
Kind of like how my father always cautioned me with the word 'hate.' it's not just a dislike of or preference against. It's an ugly emotion that comes at a cost of one's own integrity. To say one hates another is to suggest they derive a sense of satisfaction or fulfillment out of the suffering of a hated party.
@@SelectHawk I'm a scientist. We are just people and as such we can show all the negative traits you can think of. The only thing that keeps science from falling apart is the scientific method.
Basically science accepts logic induction as the basis for developing hypothesis into theories and experimentation as validation.
One important rule of thumb is that if experimentation is sound and disagrees with your logic, than your logic must be wrong.
In this case, they should always focus on making sure the experiments are precise and falsifiable. Then it is no longer a matter of whether Newton was wrong or not, instead, it becomes a matter of whether the experiment is conclusive of not.
Well, that clears that up. Maybe. Sort of. Wait, what?
Well done, sir! Very careful and complete discussion of a tricky subject.
Perhaps it would be worth comparing the rate of freezing between environmental water and distilled water. I suspect impurities have an effect.
And the rates between ice cream and water are probably different too
@@cmelton6796
Not probably they are different.
@@cmelton6796 Look up specific heat.
BTU is for water what specific heat is to everything else (the amount of heat used to raise 1 lb of a substance by 1°F), implying a difference. Not only that, but they will have different boiling/freezing points as well. The rates are most certainly different.
Thanks
I'm wondering if the "freezing faster when it's warmer" thing is really true of ice cream, since that's what supposedly inspired Mpemba. Perhaps that's been tested by food scientists at some point?
I only just now realized, days later, that that isn't how you make ice cream in the first place! You don't put it in the freezer... You put it in an ice cream maker! XD
I therefore call shenanigans on the whole mess.
@@barefootalien I'll give you 3 guesses as to what an ice cream maker can be subbed with🤔 think about what it does in the first place and how people made ice cream without one
@@ennenoire Heh, alright.
Guess 1: Put it in the freezer until it gets fairly cold. Take it out and whip it. Put it in the freezer for a few more minutes. Take it out and whip it. Put it in the freezer for a few more minutes. Take it out and... you get the idea. All that opening and closing would render any gains from a warmer starting mixture (if any) completely moot. And besides, that isn't what was described in the video; just whacking it in the freezer and waiting was, and that _still_ isn't how ice cream is made, or ever was.
Guess 2: Make an anti-bain-marie. A metal bowl of the creme anglaise inside a larger bowl full of ice, water, and salt. Stir until your arms fall off and hope the ice doesn't melt first, especially since before freezers and ice cream makers were common, ice was expensive! In this case you _definitely_ don't want a warm or hot mixture, as it would pump more thermal energy into your precious and expensive ice, unnecessarily! D:
Guess 3: Get an automated stirring device that _doesn't_ have any built-in chilling capability, like a stand mixer, and a Dewar flask of something really cold but also safe like, I dunno, liquid nitrogen. Mix like mad while you pour the cold stuff in and _poof!_ Ice cream. In this case, the starting temperature of the ice cream mixture is pretty irrelevant. Even if a scalding-hot mixture took twice as long, or half as long to freeze, you're only talking the span of a couple of breaths, hardly worth fretting about.
Okay, okay, you caught me, I might not have been guessing. ;)
The next debate. Which is heavier a quart of heavy cream
or a quart of light? Or are they the same?
Fat is less dense than water so it seems clear the light cream would be heavier? (Although I don't know if other constituents differ significantly).
@@TheEternalVortex42 And sugar is heavier.
Isn't a quart a measure of liquid volume? So the answer would be "cream" because photons aren't a liquid. Not American so maybe missing subtle aspect of your weird system.
@@tyson31415 a quart is a measure used for both
liquid and dry in the US customary.
@@TheEternalVortex42 a scale would probably tell the tale
"I thought cold water was supposed to boil faster than hot water"
@TOMIt's a meme originating from Gordon Ramsay's Hell's Kitchen in which a chef fills up a pot for pasta with cold water instead of hot water.
Thank you for doing as hard as you can to help everyone understand that
You’re hot, then you’re cold. You’re yes, then you’re no.
You're in... Then you're out.
You're up, then you're down.
You’re wrong when it’s right
You're black when it's white
Any plumber in a cold climate will tell you if your water lines freeze? Its your HOT water lines that will burst first. There was an article a few years ago, I don't remember where, but I'm sure it was a reputable source, that explained it was due to the molecular bonds. Think of hot water as having an elastic around two water molecules, stretched to its limit. Regular water is like two water molecules just stretched a little. Which is going to smack them close together first? Working in the industry, I'd say about 90% of water line bursts due to cold are on the hot side.
Surely the easiest way to check whether the container is having an effect is to do it again but switch the containers around…
I think you still won't know which differences are having what effect on the unique conditions and processes in each side of the experiment. You'll simply prove the containers read differently which they admitted happens. There's no way to compare the two unless they each have a standard baseline, which you can only get from a control, ie no variables. I am curious what kind of containers might not have such variables as silicate and glass. Even metals have a misplaced atom or two
@@vinsanity1976 so you can't have controls, but then why not just repeat the experiments a number of times (using the containers to hold alternatively selected contents) and take an average? -- in fact, take two averages, one for each starting condition. (And the graph of behaviours over time would be interesting too.)
I don't understand why this is debated. Come to Canada in the winter, fill two ice trays with water, one tray with Luke warm water, the other with boiling hot. The hot water freezes faster every time. Its simple logic; hot water evaporates faster than warm water, and evaporation takes heat away. The act of evaporation cools the water, so between rapid evaporation and being exposed to cold air, the hot water freezes first.. on top of that, water expands when it freezes and water at 0 degrees C has the same density as water at 100 degrees C, so as it cools, the water molecules are already the same distance from eachother as they would be when it crystallizes. So its a combination of the cooling effect of evaporation, and molecular geometry.
I have thawed out many frozen pipes in my life and a hot water pipe will always freeze first, even if there is a cold water pipe right next to it.
I thought that might have something to do with the toilet being used more times during the night than the hot water, keeping the heat from the earth in the cold pipe.
@@kb9knd Dane is right, as I have experienced the same result a few times in the cold and hot water pipes to the kitchen where there is no water movement during the night.
I am also a plumber and have found this to be the case. Interestingly, it even seems to be the case in seasonal homes where the water heater is off and the hot water pipes are the same temp as the cold at the time they began to freeze.
My guess is it's because the water heater takes some of the impurities out of the water allowing it to freeze at a higher temp.
@@skoronesa1 exactly! Ever emptied out a hot water heater? The amount of sludge that comes out is remarkable! Pure water will always freeze faster than water with impurities. That is a chemistry fact. Impurities change the specific heat capacity of any liquid and with water it generally means a higher specific heat capacity, which means it will freeze and boil faster. As for pipes, cold water pipes are used more and most houses have some amount of cold water leaks in sinks or especially toilets throughout the day or things like ice makers running and moving water is hard to freeze. Cold water hardware is more apt to go first, due to more use.
@@skoronesa1 heating water would cause dissolved gases to come out of solution.
The biggest, simplest problem with the Mpemba effect is that hot water obviously has to cool down before freezing, and would at that point ideally be identical to the cold water it's compared against. But there is a factor I thought up that might explain a difference should one exist. The temperature of a liquid is an average of the kinetic energy of its particles, and averages can be surprisingly vague. Imagine if the cool water's temperature comes from particles with a very stable, narrow curve of energies from its time spent cold, where hot water recently cooled to the same low temperature might have particles exhibiting a much wider range of energies averaging the same temperature. This is the only way I can think of that identical samples of pure liquid could be experimentally different.
A wise core once told me: “hot water freezes colder than cold water.”
Its helpful mnemonic device saved me from all counting troubles.
at night it's colder than outside.
I think that hot water freezes betterer then cold water...
It also carries more impurities from the pipes.
Makes perfect sense. Hot water can just skip the cooling process and go straight to freezing. It’s like a hot woman cutting in line. Advantages of being hot.
I like growing my vegetables with aeroponic systems I made. I know that water that is 68 degrees fahrenheit or less holds more oxygen than water that is warmer and for every degree warmer holds less and less oxygen the warmer it gets. Losing it's insulation value?
They can argue all they want but I’ll just give them the cold shoulder. And I’m 0-K with that.
Get it, 0-K (Zero Kelvin). I’ll let myself out.
That was terrible
That joke got a chilly reception.
@@matan8074
I know. It’s absolutely cringeworthy but I had to.
It would have been better if you hadn't put the Zero Kelvin clarification in.
I had a physics teacher ask our A level physics class (of 6 students...) to find out why hot water freezes faster. We Yahoo'd the question and never found anything. He seemed so sure there was a definitive explanation that I have been genuinely on the lookout for the answer for 15 god damn years... and now that search carries on.
Hot water is like 5 times less viscous than cold water, I'm guessing this allows it to spread out faster when tossed and thus mix temp with the cold air.
I see it as the water isnt really feezing. Its just evaporating. Thus the water vapor cloud seen when people fling it over their head.
This should be a relatively easy experiment to perform and replicate: Place several graduated cylinders outdoors in sub-zero temperatures with each cylinder filled with the same volume of water at a different initial temperature (e.g. one at room temp, one just boiled, and one at room temp but previously boiled). Observe and record the volume over time with a video camera. As water expands at the freezing point, this will provide an excellent reference for when freezing occurs. Using ambient air and placing all of the samples outside at the same time removes multiple sources of experimental error.
Unfortunately I will need to wait until winter to perform this experiment myself.
Huh...I didn't realize this was controversial. I'd always credited the faster freezing to the greater loss of heat/volume caused by the greater amount of condensation rising from warm water.
It's almost like evaporation carries away energy.
@@tyson31415 - that's what I'd thought. My own attempt at 'experimental proof' was to fling pots of water into the air in freezing temps. The boiling water *always* freezes better than room temp! Poor experimental design, I guess. ; )
Daniel Pope Because of higher evaporation the remaining water is now at lower volume so there is less energy that is needed to be removed at lower temperature.
@@danielpope3579 inertia? /s
I feel like this is the type of ultimate retribution that George Costanza could dream about 😂
… have the whole class laughing at him, “one day I’ll show them, Jerry!” Lol
this video left me cold. The Mpemba effect is caused by turbulence,
A sample with hot water becomes turbulent when placed in a cooler, this will mix the water evenly so it cools faster. A cold sample wont become (as) turbulent, and thus when cooling the core of the sample will remain the starting temperature for longer. When you freeze cubes, you will notice the inside core freezes last. If you time it right, you can create ice cubes with a water cavity inside.
By the time its cold enough to stop being turbulent the core of the 'hot' water sample will already be cooler then the core of the room temperature "cool" water sample, the cool water sample wont be turbulent, its core will lose heat far slower, therefore freezing it slower even if it started colder.
Stirring it will also cool down water faster then not stirring it, the size and shape of container also matters.
In fact, slowly stirring a hot and a cold sample will make the cold sample freeze far faster then an unstirred hot one, and a hot stirred sample wont freeze ANY faster then a hot non-stirred, proving at least roughly that the turbulence matters.
Sorry for ruining the magic.
You are just describing convection which is covered in the video and the studies. Its not convection. Nobody was saying it was magic.
Good stuff.
Higher heat would cause it to radiate away faster for it turn into a more stable form which would be frozen or as cool as the environment will allow
he probably put his ice cream right under the cooling coil fan
interesting. my school taught hot water freezes faster. we did "experiments" with a few dozen gallons of water. 🤔🍻
So did we. Hot water DID freeze faster.
@@williamcordier1201 right? like 20 or 30 min faster.
So the Mpemba Effect either exists, or it doesn't. Thanks for clearing that up.
"Hot water freeze faster!"
"What is hot water? When do you define water as freeze? Faster relative to what? Temperature or time difference? Then how much is that difference?"
Damn philosophers, let me just do science. 😂
Well for the water to freeze in less time it should also change its temperature more quickly
@@BigBodyBiggolo Wise words
When I was a kid, I heard this rumor that hot water freezes faster than cold water. So I ran many experiments to see why people believed this. What I found was that the cold water that came straight from the tap, or was cooled and agitated had much more dissolved air. While very hot water that was boiled had almost none.
1. The warm water cube appeared to be frozen sooner, because you couldn’t differentiate the frozen ice from the water in the center. It looked frozen all the way through.
2. The cold water cube froze on top and around the edges and had to lose more energy to get the dissolved air to turn to gas. This takes a similar amount of energy as evaporating nitrogen and oxygen albeit it was a small amount of gas that had to be boiled out of the liquid while freezing. But one added effect is that the air became trapped and insulated the water below from freezing. It also made the unfrozen water in the center very obvious and easy to distinguish from the frozen ice around it.
Remember that Newton’s law of cooling is based on the fact that the rate of cooling is proportional to the temperature difference between the water and the air. Hot water does not take long to cool to the same temperature as cool water. The energy loss forentropy change for sensible heat is very low compared to the energy loss required to freeze water. Couple this effect that this happens at a very low temperature with a very close approach to the temperature of a normal freezer means that the freezing process is many multiples of times longer than the cooling down to freezing. Add the extra energy required for “evaporating” the dissolved gases and the insulating effect of the dissolved gases in the cold water that if you put both in a normal household freezer; the cold water that has lots of gas will take longer.
REQUIREMENTS: COLD water has to be very saturated with gases, HOT water has to be hot long enough to lose gases, and freezer has to be just below freezing and not too cold. Then this effect will happen every time. You can use differential equations or Euler’s Method to solve it mathematically and prove it or just do it yourself.
I have witnessed hot water being thrown in the air in subfreezing ambient temperatures. Yes, it froze before hitting the ground. Some of the 45 degree water splashed when hitting the ground.
Pretty sure this is different. Maybe not. Maybe a combination of this and another thing.
@@Sir.Craze- Or perhaps something else.
The heat from the water raises the air temperature. That drastically lowers the relative humidity in that area. The water will evaporate faster.
@@stephenolan5539 relative humidity is the amount of water air will hold at a given temperature.
@@Sir.Craze-
Yes and hotter air can hold more moisture.
You raise the temperature of air and relative humidity goes down until you add water.
That is part of why inside air is dry in winter.
As a plumber I can tell you that if you get frozen pipes, it is always the hot water line that freezes and breaks first when installed next to a cold water line within the same space. I see this occurring when neither water line has flow to prevent the lines from freezing.
I've run this experiment for 2 decades by filling up my ice cube trays. I can tell you with 100% certainty that hot water freezes faster.
The ice cubes also freeze clearer, have less cracks, and are less likely, than cubes made with cold water, to break when emptying the ice cube tray.
@@Terri_MacKay Fewer cracks / less cracking
Please ! Don't embarrass the scientists . They have a reputation to uphold !
Ok then why doesnt it work for me....everytime cold water is faster. Everytime.
@@joshuasadler8073 Your experiment, or thinking was flawed.
Interesting... I remember as a kid, in winter our parents would rinse the neighborhood slide with buckets of hot water so it'd freeze and we could slide down the ice. I always wondered why it was specifically hot water, but I don't remember if I asked my mom about it. Never heard of this effect before!
No disrespect, this guy is bald yet he grows incredible dense beard, I am not bald and I cannot grow anything more than a bad patchy beard. Goddamn genes.
@Glanderson Booper Well I am in my mid 20s. So, it doesn't look like it would come anytime soon.
I wonder if something like rogaine could fix that? I know it's supposed to be used on the head only, but so is hair dye and I know plenty of women dye their eyebrows with hair dye😄
My husband is thin on top has a full dense beard and at times shaves his head bald. Id say this guy has hair up top maybe thinner and shaves it.
@@jainakhil mine didnt fill in til i hit 30. now its very dense
Don't cultivate on your face that which grows wild around your asshole.
I've worked in the ice hockey industry for 10 years and we use hot water. The Zamboni is filled with hot water, we build and repair ice with hot water. Hot water builds better, stronger, clearer ice. It's not uncommon for 190 degree water be used, although at many more casual or public facilities the water may be more around 120 for safety.
Simple proof: go outside when it's freezing or below. Take 1 cup room temp water and 1 cup boiling water. Toss in air. Which one freezes first? Boiling.
As long as you ignore all the water that boiled off.
@@Fungo4 and the fact you are specifically manipulating the water in such a way that the boiling water maximizes its surface area much more effectively than the cold water.
But... still... It freezes faster. Actually all of it freezes before it hits the floor and almost non of the cold water does.
Try to explain that with a oneliner.
@@Paul_VanGo The answer is "evaporative cooling", but the reason it doesn't 'count' is because the stuff that evaporates off isn't freezing anytime soon.
@@Paul_VanGo here is your test. take two identical pans of boiling water. throw one up into the air and set the other on the ground. which one freezes faster?
then take a pan of boiling water and a pan of cold water on a HOT day, and throw each of them into the air. pay attention to the difference in the splash pattern between the two.
sorry, it's not a one liner. it's an actual explanation of why you are changing multiple conditions and claiming only one of them is making a difference.
@TodayIFoundOut As I understood from college physics, the reason was simple. When you boil an amount of water or other liquid, the space density of the molecules is spread out. Therefore when cooling at an accelerated rate like a freezer or taking it outside, the molecules are less dense allowing for greater area to cool faster and allowing cooling to happen faster.
But the cooler one would still start out further along that curve.
The hot temperature one would still have to cool down to the where the cold one started.
I had one question going into this video and I don’t feel like it was answered. If I boil water and put it in the freezer will it freeze faster than if I had not boiled it?
This was answered: It depends on the nucleation sites on the surface of your container.
The temperature will drop at the same rate, but the water in a container with very few nucleation sites will freeze at a much lower temperature.
Yes, but no one has settled on a solid reason why
@@AnchorJG thank you, the science is really going over my head on this one and I’m not even a stranger to the refrigeration cycle
You would be getting gasses out of the water and concentrating other impurities.
Concentrating the impurities could help freezing.
@@bramvanduijn8086 than just switch the containers around between rounds.....it is not like you can do this experiment from less than a 1000 samples
This is my Theory.
From what I know the heat transfer is more efficient if the heat applied to the object is uniform.
Same reason why it take the quite a lot of time to melt the ice with flame thrower.
While just like air, water that is warm is less dense, so water which is warm will travel to the top while pushing the colder water to the bottom.
Assuming that heat transfer is done externally. the contact point of the water getting first affected would be on the all 6 surfaces. which will travel to the bottom considering it is dense while warm water will go to the top which will create water flow internally of warm water going up and water getting cold from all 6 surfaces to the bottom. this flow is greater when the difference between warm and cold water portion is greater. Hence more effectively cooling the water.
Since they were conducting the experiments with the freezer, did they take time to calculate at what precise time the light activates when the refrigerator door opens? (I swear there's a lil man man turning on that light. As elusive as Bigfoot...)
Imps get completely ignored when it comes to research. Probably paying protection money to those in power😁
How do you know that the light actually turns off when you close the door?
@@brucer4170 i had asked myself that same question, decades ago when i was in elementary school... Turns out, there *_are_* a few ways. ;-)
I’v noticed the following about hot water from the faucet. 1 - it makes clear ice cubes and 2 - it gives different results on strip tests for chlorine and such than the cold tap water does. I am not a scientist, but I am wondering if the hot water heater causes a chemical change sufficient enough to alter the freezing properties.
The soluabilty of a gas in liquid varies inversely with temperature.
Warm water holds less gas.
Warm a can of pop and open it.
And chlorine evaporates faster from warmer water.
When did Kratos get rid of his tattoos and started wearing glasses?!
He's Kratos Jr! His pops worked hard so he could have a better life, hence the button down shirt
Lol he also stopped going to the gym for like 2 years, I guess...
Simon is twice the man of that last "Kratos" but only half the man of real Kratos. When a daycare lady has twice the spine of your protagonist, ya fucked up.
Water is strange by most standards. It EXPANDS from its densest state when it freezes. If you want crystal clear ice, you vibrate it when freezing it. Snow is one of the most naturally diverse crystal structures known. We also must admit, we are yet to know everything we will know about it.
It’s hot but also cold!
I also have noticed this effect with ice cube trays. Here is my theory. There is almost always a layer of frost that forms on objects colder than 0 deg C including the walls and racks. Warmer water stands a better chance of melting the layer of frost which eventually re- freezes but has the effect of improving the contact which improves the heat transfer. This is equivalent to the role of CPU thermal paste. Even a small layer of frost when melted and refrozen can make a significant difference. This should be easy to prove by eliminating the chance of moisture in the air and thus frost in a controlled experiment. Also the hotter water is more likely to increase the air circulation which also improves heat transfer. A carefully controlled experiment addressing these issues should be easy to setup. Good science fair project idea IMHO.
Frozen chocolate produces a more satisfying mouth experience than room temperature chocolate. 😋
As someone who's used to watching Business blaze seeing Simon get through an ad-read without a tangent was startling lol
Fascinating subject
I mean, I can literally do this in my own freezer and find the results for myself. Why scientists spent so much time in a pissing contest about this is beyond me.
lol, dk if ur joking or not, but if u aren't, there are multiple factors which affect freezing, such as the nucleation sites, impurities, dissolved gases etc
when I was at uni I was taught that warmer water freezes faster as the "temperature gradient" is steeper. The ice crystals are able to form (which requires energy itself) meaning there was energy available for the state change more readily. Also you could argue in the freezer the other items in there were being warmed by the warmer pot within the chamber...
“Heated” debate:) you forgot the “bada boom boom tssss”, Blaze boy:)
Used to make skating rinks in the backyard as a kid and it would always take longer to freeze with cooler water.
My Heat Transfer professor told me in engineering school that it's generally true, although there's no good scientific reason that's generally accepted. He told me he holds to the view that there's a thing called "thermal inertia," probably related to some additional circulation present in the hot water.
Still, every housewife knows to fill her ice trays with hot water. She gets her ice sooner. 😎
Hot water makes better ice for drinks because it freezes clear, I haven't checked for faster personally.
It is because the molecules in the hot water are moving around more, the easiest way to visualize this is that you are increasing the surface area.
That's why I test things myself. Way too many so called " intelligent" people always say "it's true because my teacher told me" (the beginning of brainwashing). By the way it's false by a long shot. Get you some sensitive thermosisters, set the water outside when it's in the single digit and observe. You can't use a freezer accurately because the airflow isn't consistent inside the freezer. You can put one thing on one side and one thing on the other and it will freeze faster because of the inconsistencies in the freezer.
This debate has led to so many more fights and stabbings in prison than anyone who hasn't been there could possibly believe.
Y'all work way too hard on all of these channels to not be bigger. Definitely an underappreciated group of channels. I feel like I've learned more from binging your videos than I did in 12 years of school.
Watching UA-cam for knowledge will help you win jeopardy. You must dwelve deep into a topic to master it
Always attributed it to the fact that all liquids get thinner when heated, therefore would freeze faster.
Tan-zaynia?
I thought the same when I heard that.
Also Bing-HAMP-ton NY - locally pronounced BINGum-ton
I think the Tanzania pronunciation is a US vs UK thing. I've heard other UK folks also go for the 4 distinct syllable pronunciation. The Binghamton one though, as a former New York State resident, that hurt my ears :)
My all time favorite is a town here in Scotland called Milngavie. It's pronounced Mull Guy. Who'd have any chance of getting that right? 😆
you should do a video on how dead are cleared from battlefields, is it done every night during the lull? does each side allow the other time and passage to do so? keep up the good work!
A scientist laughing at research and blindly regurgitating the dogma they were trained to memorize? 🤔 Some things never change 😅
yeah wakanda n sheeeit
While in graduate school for Physical Chemistry, my lab mates and I heard about this effect. We didn’t believe it and set out to collect some data. Monitoring the temperature of a beaker of hot water and a cold one in the fridge always gave the same (expected) result. Once the hot water reached the same temperature as the cold water, the cooling curves were always the same. That was enough for us.
They can't figure a simple problem like this out and yet I'm supposed to believe in inflation theory.
I've had a cook try to boil cold water "because it boils faster than hot water". After calling them an idiot, I put hot water on to boil and it came to a boil before the cold water they already had going, no shit. I then made them go tell the older cooks about it. One by one, I heard the rest of the cooks laugh their ass off at this guy.
another wacky idea would be that just the outside freezes faster which would make sense as the melting enthalpy is actually negative for water .meaning it releases heat when melting and needs energy to freeze. but that would only lead to a quicker freezing of a thin surface layer
I know if you want completely clear ice cubes, use hot water. I have done it as an experiment but it's not something I bother with normally.
You'd think, in 2021 we could spend a day and put this to bed already
Simon, I only have one lifetime! Ok, ok... Rotting turtle cologne, then water freezing. Deal?
I discovered the inverse of the Mpemba - effect! Since no one can pronounce properly Abmepm we will call it hence forward the Beyaert effect.
So, I found out that when I put an amount of frozen water on my stove it starts to boil much faster than when I use the same amount of water at room temperature!
By the way, I like your videos very much Simon!
I've observed the supercooling effect many times. Just this week it happened with an entire pack of Popsicles I pulled out of a freezer at the store (I also like to flick them and watch them freeze; sometimes it's fast other times slow, sometimes it only freeze a portion of it... fun). I've also had cups glide across a table from condensation; my assumption being a combination vacuum, low friction, water acting as a gas barrier, and some favor for a direction (a slight tilt or imperfection of the table, air being pulled from one side, etc). My thought is that as it cools it increases the vacuum; which in turn pulls some water and air into it creating movement (as it pulls from one side) and even possibly positive pressure to ride it out even further (enough air to equalize pressure, but water on the bottom from gravity and surface tension that it then lands on like a cushion). Only air movement being convection and breathing, no hand banging, but some level of force from eating, and resting forearms. I've had it move really quickly, so a small force might get it started but is not what's moving it 3"~3'
In Colorado we can throw boiling water in to the air (carefully) and it instantly freezes if the air temperature is below 0 Fahrenheit. This is due to the supercooling effect of the ambient temperature.
A similar effect is used to freeze soda in to slushes.
Freezes as in you have ice? Or evaporates and nothing falls to the ground?
And 0 Fahrenheit is nothing special.
@@stephenolan5539 even the vapours would freeze, and thus fall to the ground... As a fine powdery snow, but still...
And 0F is significantly lower than 0C so it has a more potent effect on the water.
It can’t all be because of variations in the samples and equipment because the changes are always in the same direction, ie hit water freezes faster. It’s still true even if we don’t know why to think otherwise is pure hubris.
I think this has something to do with Carnot Efficiency. In thermal systems like steam engines, energy transfers most efficiently when there's a large difference between the heat source and heat sink. IE, a 2,000 degree boiler is more efficient than a 500 degree boiler, even if the water/steam temperature going in and out is the same. The bigger the temperature difference between heat source and water, the less fuel you use to heat the water.
Given that...I think you probably could get a faster skin of ice over hot water, because that's where Carnot efficiency is highest. At the interface between water and cold air. But ultimately, it would take longer or about as long for the cube to freeze solid. Whereas with cold water, the temperature change would be more uniform, so the cube would freeze basically all at once. You wouldnt get as much skinning effect, freezing from the outside in.
That would be my theory, anyway.
There's a flaw in assuming that the refrigeration system would kick in higher when a hot sample was placed inside it. The system would just run longer in order to get the inside of the refrigerator back to it's set temperature. Not faster. It's the same thing with running your air conditioner. The temptation is to set the thermostat on the air conditioner to a colder temperature, to get the room cooled off faster, but that's not how it works. It cools the room at the same rate as if you set the thermostat at a warmer temperature. The system will just overshoot and coold past the desired temperature. But it won't do it faster.
I could listen to you for hours!
oh wait... I have been
I would hope experimentation would be so conclusive and easy to replicate that this kind of debate would never arise. Go figure...
maybe it's a matter of a specific starting temp, not a range of temps ... ie 15c is a range between 14c and 16c... decimals are infinite, but the amount of room a molecule of water can move when it is part of a body of water is finite in both ends... it can only hold so still before it get's locked up and becomes a molecule of ice oh, it can only wiggle so much before it becomes a molecule of vapor... sure ice and vapor are water... but it's still fundamentally different on a macroscopic level, so we can establish that range as biundries... it's larger than a degree but using the physical differences of how molecules of water interact with each other at different temperatures I believe we can make a finite scale that is granular enough to catch very exacting tempatures like 15.68937125c or something without checking an infinite amount of an infinite amount of temperatures. But we might need to have a few thousand people observing water molecules under a microscope at various temperatures to even get a glimpse of the kinds of behavioral changes that such a scale would be based on, and after several glimpses we could work out a single notch in the scale, then not assuming a scale of even spacing we can't just make the rest of the scale from there, so it would be an unbelievably arduous task. Kind of like reading this comment, LOL sorry. So it's probably never gonna happen. But it's based on the idea that on a microscopic level water that's 10 degrees might act and look very differently than water that's 9 degrees or 11 degrees, and making a set of degrees that is based on those differences. So kinda like saying 0 = freezing, 1 = liquid, 3 = ice... but for microscopic changes instead of macroscopic changes. Also instead of a degree every state change, it's a degree every behaviour change. Anyways I think that kind of scale might help here.
I performed an entirely unscientific test of this in 1976 or 1977 from my NJ College Dorm. It was frigid outside with a strong breeze, wind chill was probably around 10F. I also had access to a few 9"x12" flags. I soaked flags in both cold faucet water and hot faucet water. No timer, just human guesstimating, seemed the hot flag froze faster sometimes and froze at the same time other times.
Oddly enough, this was a "Ripley's Believe it or Not !" piece in the 1930s.
The fact that this is an effect of SOME SORT is in itself FAR MORE FASCINATING. Like, we can't even say for sure what is going on because water ices are so darn complicated, so it may depend on a bevy of strange things, but then on top of that, it could be a statistical problem, a thing with flasks, etc etc. Honestly, this is a VERY productive problem.
Another smashing Giles Messier script! Great stuff! 👍
In most freezers, there is a layer of frost (ice), which when melted creates a solid contact between the freezer and the sample, allowing better transfer.
i guess you didn't watch that bit at 7:10 - 7:27 ? :-)