Clem is going to get Terran nerfed again. StarCraft 2
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- Опубліковано 11 лис 2023
- StarCraft 2 Tournament 2023 World Team League Kung Fu Cup - The new Rank 1 Terran in the world Clem takes on herO in this dramatic Terran vs Protoss series!
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StarCraft 2 Legacy of the Void - World Team League Tournament 2023 - Kung Fu Cup 7 - Clem (Terran) vs herO (Protoss) - Best of 3
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Starcraft 2 is a Science Fiction Real Time Strategy & Tactics game by Blizzard Entertainment. Download and play free at www.starcraft2.com
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Winterstarcraft, Starcraft 2 2023, SC2 2023
#Starcraft2 #SC2 #RTS - Ігри
People coping for Terran nerfs... Terran doesn't need nerfs. Protoss needs more buffs.
Protoss struggles against Zerg too, almost as much as Terran. You nerf Terran, and we'll be right back to Zerg winning everything in existence (they almost do still)
Nerf Zerg, buff P. Problem solved.
true nerf terran for what ?
I just love how cultured Winter is with all the references to sci-fi and iconic movie pop culture. Tear ship like tissue paper. Brilliant!
My favourite is the "It's a FAKE!!!!" from DS9. It's so obscure but fits perfectly
33:34 and 33:37 is actually fucking ridiculous. People have gotten accused of using a split hack to dodge like that. Fucking unreal.
Shaq at the free throw line. Ouch, that's a deep cut 🤣
It takes six shots from a level 3 upgraded weapons Stalker to take out a widow mine. Just think about that for a minute. Or, just about how long it takes a Stalker to take out a widow mine, which costs so little.
That's broken AF, and has been since the beginning
Think about how a disrupter shot can kill 8 units instantly and Clem has to put in 500 apm to survive in any engagement. Gtfo of here
@@flowstateentertainment8395disrupters require micro to use and keep safe
Yeah widow mines have always been broken, but widow mines medivac is literally impossible to do anything against. Between the speed of boosted medivacs, and widow mines one shotting drones and probes (but not SCVs mind you), even if you have like a cannon and 3 stalkers, or queens and a spore, you still lose your entire drone line... So glad widow mines got a buff in the last patch. That was definitely a good call.
@@flowstateentertainment8395 Well, it only depends on how attentive you are, because the fastest units are always saved
0 for 2, Shaq at the free throw line😂😂😂
to get terran nerfed again will require a time machine that gets them nerfed for the first time
so reapers were never nerfed?
Maybe the way to balance widowmines would be to either split them in two making one widowkind affect ground and one affect air. That way you will not be able to afk burrow stuff around as a one unit fits all scenarios, you might have some supply used for ground only widows to harass only when your opponent goes air comp and vice versa where you have to actually be minful of how much you want/can commit to a certain type rather than the other. Or to make it an upgrade that unlocks it's huge damage, make it so that non upgraded widow mine almost oneshots workers, like banelings do, so that you need two microed aimed shots rather than to drop burrow and afk it. edit: also another way would be to make the auto target a toggled ability, if you put mines in auto target the shots are not homing anymore, they hit the area that the lock on timing endend so it can miss when not microed.
If they didn’t lock onto units that would help just lock onto a target area.
@@OpiatesAndTits no you did not get what i meant. With the lock on change i'm talking about the explosion would be "delayed". You see how the missile follows for a long distance fast thjngs like flying units and zerglings? They way i wpuld make it is that once the mine is over with the lock on it becomes sorta like a ravager shot, it locked on that spot and it's not following the unit anymore.
widow mines require minimum micro for the amount of damage they do early game to mineral lines. Banelings are harder to micro and are way more costly. Protoss has nothing to easily kill workers early game, the only viable thing is oracles, but oracles require a lot of micro. Honestly widow mines early game power should be reduced, and increased mid game with an update, maybe start with small range explosion and update it to full range. Honestly what I mention it doesnt seem balanced among races.
disruptor drops are an equivelant
@@villz1267Disruptor drops are way harder... Manually aimed, mines auto fire that can basically never miss. Likely prism+disrup cost more. Don't turn invisible, and potentially change the game for free once they recharge.
Maybe make phoenixes a bit cheaper, or give them some kind of buff to make them worth the cost.
@@onemartialartsguy Let's also not forget that the widow mine is cheaper than every Protoss gateway unit other than the zealot and one shots gateway units. That means that just about every mine that fires at more than a single worker is a positive trade. Funny thought, though. Terrans complain so much about disruptor. I wonder what they'd say about a hypothetical trade of the widow mine for the disruptor. I suspect not.
What do you mean Banelings? You don't need them. Just build a few Queens, then F2+AClick and everything will be fine. As Zerg, you don't need micro. But if you can, just build a few Zerglings early game and win easily.
im only on the first game but this is spectacular. thanks for sharing with us winter
This cast really shows why PvT is hovering around 30%, it's that Protoss has no comeback potential when you inevitably take losses. It really feels like if Protoss doesn't micro perfectly the game is almost unwatchable cuz you already know where it's going 70-80% of the time. it's like herO tries storm drop to deal less damage than widow mines drop only to lose the prism and the game, something isn't right with this matchup. we need a redesign of the widow mine not the cyclone tbh.
Isn't it obvious that if anyone fail to micro then it will cost you the game? This is sc2. Every moves, every decision and every micro counts. In most case that decisive moment that dictates the game. So I have no idea wtf are you on about.
@@bsiah9073we were so worried about how much banes could hurt economies but did nothing about mines which are way better than banes ever were lol
Tell jimmy good job on the thumbnail and title
Miss playing when I get wifi capable of playing can’t wait!!!
8:35 Ralph pls go
Another great cast ! Thoughts on bringing back the zealots charge impact damage to make them slightly better against terran and also maybe removing the perma-burrow feature of mines to make them a little less broken in the early game?
Then why even have them? By that point you might as well remove mines and just make siege tanks the only thing with that kind of damage
Don't agree on the mine tho. I think it's ok now. But I do agree zealots really need a buff. Compared to the other only mineral units of Zerg and marines which can be useful throughout the Game, to me zealots seems underpowered.
I think a great buff would be a late game upgrade, maybe something like the marauders concussive charge
@@leonardovegaolmedo5483 that's actually brilliant it would make zealots viable against bio so they don't just get kited to oblivion but they Still wouldn't be broken against units designed to counter them
@@zafraz1077IMO zealots need a splash attack.
Clem and solar turning it up
What is that big creature shadow that pops up from time to time?
Oh no more TvP trying to remember the last time I've seen even army supply protoss win a fight against terrain. Add in the busted mines and blegh
protoss shouldn't straight up win an even supply fight. Because they can literally summon in a fresh army right in front of your base.
@@GameFuMaster that in the mid and late game (unless you do an all or nothing) since there you make the most of the race's deficiencies
@@GameFuMaster Ah yes because that is so viable Protoss are totally winning games ever at the high level. Totally not losing every fight, getting pushed back, losing a nexus, and never able to gain any ground ever. In theory that might work but in practice it really doesn't seem to.
@@MadArtillery never said they shouldn't get buffed. Just said they shouldn't win solely based on supply values
@@GameFuMaster realistically, protoss can warp in about 24 supply, max. Hardly a full army, and those units are straight trash without robo units, which do not warp in. Protoss has a price built in for warp, it is the price of the units. Not only does Protoss not trade remotely close to equal against even supply bio, it also costs more, while the robo units also take longer to reproduce. Factor in needing more supply tied up in workers, so not only will Protoss never trade evenly on equal supply, it will always necessarily be down in army supply in the late game. Warp in is trivial compared to Protoss disadvantages against Terran.
Got engaged today. What a great day to watch a Winter cast.
Bringing UA-cam content engagement to the next level
Congrats 🍾 man. Hope you have a blessed wedding
A 2-0 victory. Clean sweep 👏🎉. Congrats !!
Congratulations!
congrats!
Thank You
Om nom nom
Is Clem even human, look at how he dodges disruptor shots 33:31 and 33:35 twice in a row
clem is the second fastest player currently in sc2, i consider reynor to be the fastest, but its hard to be 100% sure.
the title hahaha
I know it’s been overstated and I’m no game developer but I really feel that gateway units are just too weak dude. They just do not stack up to the cost efficiency of Terran and Zerg units. Their tech units are great, but Gateway units are so indispensable compared to Bio and Zerglings and roach Ravager that Protoss just doesn’t seem to have a way to protect those units. Idk how to fix them without totally busting the game because they ARE able to be warped in anywhere on the map which in and of itself is incredibly dangerous. Protoss just seems like they can’t compete against Terran specifically due to Bio being by far better than Mech in the matchup and it’s so cost efficient that the Protoss just can’t do anything, especially when ghosts exist and can strip away shields and energy entirely and widow mines force detection which in order to build it keeps Protoss from producing robo bay units. I’m not sure what to do about it but PvT just seems so one sided.
it's kind of a trade off, gate way unit are there to provide buffer to their high tech units. if you want to buff the gate way unit then robo unit needs to get nerfed.
That APM goes through the roof. omg!
More great widow mine micro!
Tanks need to have extended range be a separate upgrade.
as it was
Terran doesn't need a nerf, protoss needs a couple new early-mid tier gateway units to make them a bit more versatile. It's stale.
No, widow mines are stupid and should be removed. Widow mine medivac is way too powerful after the last patch. They're not even fun to either play or watch either, so they should just be gotten rid of
@@mylucyrk I say the main problem is area damage. It's absurd how 2 mines can eliminate almost your entire economy with a really low cost and you can even prevent them from dying
no they should remove Terran for you@@mylucyrk
Terran needs a nerf no mules. Add on reactor for double scv production.
@transitcombine9057 yeah you can kill 40 scvs and T comes back by dropping 1 million mules at 0 cost.
clem is almost like maru
Winter talks about marauders and marines like you talk about someone from Florida.
Great Casting ! Thank you winter !
WMs are a pain to deal with and I still wish they will be nerfed some day : make their atk cost minerals for exemple or nerf the radius of their aoe ! Also no bonus to protoss shields on the aoe (main missle atk is acceptable but not the aoe)!
Man... what a fight! Isn't that so much better than Zerg pretending to lose or letting a Chinese win a major tournament to get to the 1.4B market? Nope, these kind of games may make SC great again! Great match, great commentary!
I hate widowmines so much, dang
I love them
they need redesign like swarmhost or cyclone. its just badly designed unit like HotS swarmhost that far outlived change due date.
Same here. After game one I was like, nah. Also love how terran production/economy is so stupidly overtuned in the early-mid game that the early missplays in game 1 coat Clem nothing, all he had to do was back off and he was gutchi. Say what you want about zerg but if they lose a bunch of stuff and get nothing done they get parade pushed 9/10 times, terrans, not so much.
What have i ever done to you?
Has Maru fallen from grace?
"and Clem just 'terran' thru"... Was that a pun intended?
Yup. He uses it often :)
Time for another rousing round of Terran Wins.
Helle, thx you for this replay. What is music we can hear at 00:20:50 please ? thx, have a nice day bye bye
Remove widowmine and remove the heal on medivacs and reinstate medics
Remove Terran, perhaps remove you from sc2
Why invest so much in disruptors when disruptors do no damage,..?
I'm not sure either, I see mass stalker/coll/lots alot and idk why as they go into late game they don't go into a void/coll/arch/immo build because that always ends up crushing the T armies.
Also protoss is allergic to cannons and observers.
@@okachobe1 and mostly the immortals in TvP (and I get it, it requires almost a base for a unit, don't screw around)
Because there's only like 3 terrans in the world who can make disruptors look bad.
@@atdaniell2797 yeah, but wouldn't it make sense to not build disruptor when playing against one of the three?
@@okachobe1 you are suggesting a composition that requires massing voids (which in lower numbers are no good) at the same time as teaching for robo and twilight, while also getting observers. the amount of resources and tech you would need to mass collossus+immortal+observers(a few only) would already make it difficult to get most other things, nevermeind archons and stargate+mass voids.
Your final composition might do well vs maxed out terran army, but the issue is getting there, since your suggested composition will take longer to amass and be weaker in lower numbers vs terran bio.
Great match
12:19 - #goals
i like this, dood day indeed
how old is winter? shaq attack/hack a shaq was at least a billion years ago.
Widowmine needs to be more fragile, it's too damn tanky and takes too much resources to deal with. Players should be rewarded for staying on top of them and you shouldn't need two times as much supply of stalkers as the widowmines and vac combined to have any chance of shutting it down. Even supply stalkers can barely scratch thr mines and vac before they get their job done, mines always being a wining move unless they get shut down hard in transit is just broken and I'm tired of seeing the loss cost low risk move outright winning games or instantly making them lopsided in favor of the terran, it was old years ago.
bro stalkers have more range than mines, you don't need that much supply to deal with it. It's just much more effort than it takes to burrow 5-10 around the map to make movement really annoying
@@Iaotle that's in field battle scenarios and given you have detection. I'm talking about minedrops and 6 souply of units (2mines and a vac) doing unparallell damage for low cost, minor micro and very little reaction time. Hell, sometimes they don't even have to kill anything, it's so damn cheap the lost mining time can easely make up for the investment unlesd they've been intercepted on route, it's not fun to play against, it's boring watching pros get facerolled by it because it's so much more cost/micro-intentense to deal with than to do meaning they get heavily taxed just dealing with it and if you do multiple mine drops that tax just increases, it's why people lose their shet when Dark, Serral, Hero or other top players deal with multidrops cleanly while doing a dozen other things simultaneously because you have to have wider attentionspan than the guy doing it. It's not like being singularly focused on stimming marines and orbwalking them or burrowing mines and forgetting about them for massive profit.
@@aliasalbatross700 oh I'm totally with you, I'm a mine hater. They should be single use but cheaper
@@IaotleI don't really hate the mines per se, I don't even play that much anymore, but when something is riddiculously strong in the lower Leagues and riddiculously strong against pros for the same reason (taxing apm/attention) and opponent failing to pay that tax outright losing them the game or at the very least sets them back extremely means it could definately get looked over, buffing the mines was the worst aspect of the balance patch imo. Yes it was a small buff but it was a buff to an already overtuned unit and that's always a terrible idea. I don't know what should be done about them, I'm open to anything. One time use would be interesting but that would probably introduce a new slew of balancing issues but hey, why not, might even fix the problems eventually.
@@aliasalbatross700 well they changed carriers to have attack priority over interceptors, so they could def change the mine to be better to play against.
Is the title how you get boys to buy candy in the van?
Widow mines are the cheesiest unit in sc2. It take no skill and deals almost guaranteed damage.
Terran is an OP race, here is how you know:
tier 1 units marines can counter just about everything in the game. Can be picked up by Medivacs and while boosted, are one of the fastest unit in the game. Marines counter Carriers, if you didn't know.
Widow mines, which are tier two units, are the most APM effective unit in the game. Just lay them down anywhere and you counter everything. Hits air, ground, and reloads itself. Banelings can't even detonate automatically underground.
With 7+ command centers, you don't even need SCVS in the late game. You just call down mules and Terran will have the biggest army size of 200/200 army.
Terran Win% is the highest against P and Z
Terran has been nerfed over and over again and still has high win%
Terran is OP
That's right that is why you nerf mules.
Anyone else tired of watching people lose because widow mines get like 50 worker kills? At this point I am starting to think Clem is actually intentionally saying look at this ridiculous shit. PROTOSS WHO IS ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM, last patch they nurf disrupter damage radius, this patch they nurf disrupter supply cost and buff widow mines...... wtf is going on. Im not even a Toss btw.
Also WINTER, why is the win loss score blank white for the second half of video.
I am tired of Protoss players crying about widow mines, medivac and sometimes even marines LOOOL. They complained that it's imba when they don't even bother building observer and cannons, or improve their macro and micro
@@bsiah9073 you are trolling right?
@@MikeMaragni trolling what? All I see was bad micro at bad times and overly good micro from Terran at the right times which closed the game. Yet people still find reasons nickpicking that some units need to be nerf or removed. Accordingly to the statistics. The patches had never been so balanced before. Well they will never be balanced as plays evolves with players, the top players and not ordinary players. Yet many ordinary players complain about the changes, and never question the people who actually make the changes. You don’t try to fix the problem at roots but rather what you can only see on the surface. Who is trolling now? It’s not even funny to make fun of people who don’t used their brain anymore.
@@bsiah9073 Im not a toss player, everyone knows widow mines are broken. Widow mines are my only complaint. 90% of your reply does not apply to my comment.
@@MrCreed145 it appears not everyone is? I am not? Hello? Who is the everyone? Where are they? Your imagination? lol if you don’t know or can’t even argue then please don’t, I don’t understand what the 90% are you on about. So what’s not broken with the rest of the units in scII? Can you please enlighten me? Personally, I think SCV are pretty broken as they can repair shit, even units. Probes are pretty broken too as they can just build something with 0.1 seconds and leave it there go back to their mining or whatever. Don’t get me started with drones, they never faced any harassment issue early game as they don’t die unless you let the incomplete building die. They can even avoid attacks by turning themselves into building cocoons before the attack animation hits them. That’s broken af to me. 😂 oh shit I just remembered all race are designed fundamentally different. Fking hell, did you know that too? Probably not hey given what you said earlier and now. Well let me get this straight to you my friend. Protoss is not at the bottom. YOU, my friend are AT THE BOTTOM, YOU are NOT VALID and YOU Fking SUCK. If Protoss doesn’t work out for you, try Zerg or Terran. If not just quit. SC2 is not for you mate, Try age of empire or something. Some RTS that are not fast paced, that does not require heavy micro and fast decision making. Maybe try TBS games like civilisation or total war. Your are welcome.
Dad! ❤
The only thing being balanced is... Nothing 🎉
I see hero I click
The United Nations Mine Action Service are simply shaking their heads at these mines...and men with drugs and guns 😮💨
I feel like Hero was really slipping this game.
SHOW US JIMMY
I wanna see hero wint he next tournament ( winter said tweets or x,s) no we never calling it that ? 😂😂😂😂
Nah, Maru is better. Clem heavily relies on the broken widowmines to cover retreats and widowmine drops as a cheap and low risk way of doing economic damage.
Wouldn't that make Clem better for making the more economic decision?
Might be annoying but that's blizzard as the issue not the person playing to win.
@@okachobe1 es injusto pero tienes razón. Mayormente se basa a las victorias y no las medidas que se realizaron.
GG
This game is literally too frustrating to play anymore
If Clem is now the best terran and maxpax the best protoss, does that mean that with serral on zerg the best players for each race are all from the EU?
Koreans moved back to brood war so EU can feel good about themselves
The fact that bio can dodge all robo attacks by jumping into medivacs instantly looks a bit broken. Not as much as widow mines though
Widow mines yey what fun. Nerf that crap back to the Stone Age or remove it entirely. Why we are reworking the cyclone which was an amazing unit k don’t know.
Clem may be the rank 1 terran right now, but he's still not (yet) the best terran player in the world.
Maru is still head and shoulders above everyone else, even if he's slumping right now.
Good to see underpowered Terran finally win a game or two
20 seconds in and its a like lol.
The observer gets scanned out and eliminated so easily & quickly is the dearth of Protoss against Widow mines. Widow mine needs serious nerfing or taken out altogether. Disgusting unit and Terran players are exploiting this.
11:04 I glance at that situation and wonder how Terran can ever win a straight up engagement. But then Clem trades pretty well at 11:14. Turns out you just need a super wide concave and make sure the protoss never attacks once with its collosus.
Clem is very good online, but fails to have the same succes offline. Until he's able to make a deep run in Dreamhack or Katowice, the Aligulac rating means not that much.
why is an offline win better than an online win ?
@@motan7864 Well, the ping make reaction time different online and offline. There are some player, like Clem, who way better online that offline, because offline, their opponent can react more quickly. Clem playstyle is optimised for online.
@@alexandresimard696it’s also his nerves. He has some pretty bad stage fright and doesn’t perform anywhere near as well in front of an audience.
lol spoken by someone who can't play very good online and offline?
@@alexandresimard696 It's not the reaction times at all that make Clem good, it's strictly his nerves and ability to hold it together on stage. The ping difference goes both ways online, and it's not as easy to control bio that precisely with even the slightest of delays in commands.
For the algorithm
I hace this game
I never understand why protoss just refuse to photon cannon their base. Especially late game where the mineral income is somewhat stable. every miss will result in 8 probe dead. Even 3 photon cannons per mineral lines is worth it if we count the lost mining time.
Practically speaking, it is because Protoss has to prepare to counter all the potential terran push possibilities in the early game, and DPS is so extremely low compared to a terran push, that spending 150 minerals into a cannon is a huge, often fatal investment. Cannons should be cheaper, or at least have longer range and do more damage.
In game one hero sees the medivac, builds a single canon at a tertiary base and then just leaves his main with nothing where he lost 17 probes.
He knew he was there and did some lazy prep he was even banking minerals at the time.
Then he has a observer and continues to walk into mines instead of bring the observer over.
@@Commenter703 cannon is already the most powerful static defense in the game by a long shot, and you want to buff them even more?
@@okachobe1he had multiple cannons but 1 cannon isn’t enough to kill a WM it can still burrow and shoot so now we need 3 cannons per base to cover against just widow mine drops (still not sure two cannons shooting kills a WM tbh before it shoots)
He left a new base exposed with no cannon and that’s probably because his attention economy was taxed or he needed the money for units/expansions.
If banelings were too much against mineral lines than so are mines. It’s really as simple as that.
Glad to see the unit is getting the negative attention it deserves. It’s kinda toxic.
depressing watch as a Protoss
Okay I’ve watched dozens of these. Can someone tell me who Jimmy is?
I know he’s not actually there unless it’s his roommate or something.
It's the fake intern that has to manage stuff in the background.
Jimmy is the fictional guy to blame for anything wrong in any of Winter's content. I love the Jimmy bits
Clem is good, but it really feels like he reached his current position in the world ranking by abusing Widow mines vs P and Z !
Maru, Byun and Special/Major (though haven't seen much of him lately) are better than Clem imo !
There is a 0% chance that special is better than Clem. I think Clem is in par if not better than byun and Maru is still the best T in the world
@@ClearAleraI havent Seen much of Juanito recently to disagree with you, but Mary and Byun are better than Clem, only différence: Clem IS younger, has room for improvement and youth IS import for your stamina! But abusing widow mines, like that will eventually draw thé attention of the "revered" balance counsil..and I Hope thé mine gets hit hard!
So both T & P have non Koreans as ranked 1, and Serral still ranked 1 Z & world?/ If so, first time i've seen all races have non Koreans as ranked 1
noo im not the first
You have to go storm. Fast storm. It’s the only way and needs to be the new meta.
Storm deals with Cyclones?
ghosts exist
I like how people can see hero letting two colossi die for nothing, lost storm prism twice, and clem's perfect micro against disruptors and decide that widowmine is what that won clem the game.
Its a cheat unit the community has collectively hated since HOTS and refuses to take meaningful and deserved nerfs. Its right up there with the "precious marines" meme where any time a unit has been marginally effective vs. marines it gets nerfed over the last decade.
All your examples are also micro oriented. Widow memes circumvent micro to be effective.
I don't think mines won the game, but there's no argument to be made that they're a fair unit. Way too cheap and little to no micro required to make them effective. Even a mine drop that kills nothing will usually deny hundreds of minerals of mining while it gets cleaned up. Terran doesn't need it to be good, but it makes having a protoss economy little more than a dream.
@@Grooviebones i don't understand what do you mean by 'cheat unit'. it is a unit with obvious counters and can be easily countered as well, and with good micro, you can either minimize the splash by splitting away the unit that it targets or simply drag the hit in to the terran army.
@@JollyGreenWizard every race have their own send and forget unit. same can be said for prism warps in a dozen charge lot, or a sneaky nydus in the main or just a ling bane run by.
@@widowmines231 so did banelings but they nerfed those. Give widow mines to protoss then its got obvious counters, no problem.
Hero's pathing is so stupid
Terran needs nerfs.. specially to the mines..
the saltiness about mines is so damn funny.
First
Medivac or dropping mechanic, could be fixed, with a debuff of 1 second applied to all exiting members across all species. This would solve the instane repick jugglign and make it more tactical and somewhat reasonable.
However, THe supply cost of observers and cost should be lowered or two for one cost, and half supply cost per observer. Protoss suffers immeasurably at a supply problem verse terran to production problem...
OBS, should be cheaper... With zerg and terran having access to energy based spy systems, protoss isn't given anything remotely like that and htuse OBS spam is in effecient and easily removed at a considerable cost... Holograms are one way, but they don't last long enough if they could be varriable in time, like a hologram observor acts in teh same manner and lasts about 45 seconds, but has a faster speed.. and is easier ot spot... hmm.... yeah
STOP SHOWING PVT STOP
just buff the fucking toss. Nerf Terran for what? So Zerg's dominance still continuing or what?