POLE POSITION SECRET ARCADE MENU HACK! OMG!
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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In this video we are going to see if we can make Daniel Rodriguez's Pole Position hack discovery work on an original Atari Pole Position arcade game using the ATARI romset. The hack basically allows you to control which car grouping you will get on the qualifying lap's hairpin turn. REALLY CRAZY that this was discovered in 2016! This seems like essential knowledge for a World Record run! WOW!
Check out Daniel Rodriguez's original video where he demo's his discovery in MAME: • Video Please be sure to comment on his video! He deserves FULL CREDIT for this discovery!
![1982 [60fps] Pole Position 64280pts ALL](/img/n.gif)
It's called Pseudo Random Number Generator. When the RNG is seeded the same sequence of numbers will come up always in the same order as it is seeded the same way. If you know where you are in the chain of random numbers you can predict the next ones. And it is easy to find where you are in the sequence when you booted the game. It will always start in the same. And in 80s game it comes down to simple patterns usually you can memorize. What appears random is not random, it is predictable. And once you know where you are in a sequence of events you know what will happen next.
TwentyWasHere interesting info
Yeah, no such thing as truely random so they have to use something else as a seed. Lots of examples of this in simple games, another is the flying saucer in Space Invaders where you can count your shots to ensure you always get awarded max points when you hit it.
TwentyWasHere Everyone who works in programming knows that we have to work woth psuodo random numbers but what is really interesting is that there may not be any such thing as truly random even in the real world. It is looking increasingly likely that the concept doesn't exist at all.
That is a very interesting topic. What is actually random? When do we consider something random? Is what we conceive as chaos actually chaos or is their a order to it, we just do not understand. But to be honest, I tried to read some recent papers on that topic from a mathematical point of view. Sadly, that stuff is beyond my paygrade and what I remember back from my student days.
Didn't Jeff Goldblum explain this in Jurassic Park
Classic masterpiece racing icon of all time, if you were in the arcades growing up, you know this GAME!
If you drop a coin into Ms. PacMan while the intro marquee is empty (before blinky shows up) the maze will be dark blue and red instead of pink.
Really?
Quite a clickbaity title, but interesting nonetheless.
I'm assuming this is based on the random number generator function, and letting the numbers cycle will be more unpredictable.
I was thinking the same. It probably advances by one every time the title or attract are shown. There may well be other factors too but that's how it looks.
Actually Atari Arcade machines they hid a lot of secrets in there games in crystal castles there are secret warp tunnels that only are on the original arcade pcb from the 1980's and the original game on the Atari 2600 I do think and there was another version later for the other consoles and it doesn't have any special warp zones.
Atari was known for hiding stuff in there games this resulted in some interesting problems for clones of Atari and namco games I have even seen a pac man crossed with a adult game where pac man decides to have his way with ms pacman on screen do to a bad rom dump from some country.
26:48 - John, I followed your retro pie build. That thing is a total piece of shit. It doesn't have the horse power to run anything. Even NES games are emulated terribly. I will admit though, I couldn't get any MAME games to work. But since it couldn't even handle a SNES game smoothly, I can't see MAME being so great. I still wanted to try it because people kept talking about it so its all good.
I wonder if something similar exists in Pole Position 2. I know that in Namco Museum 3 for PS1, there is a trick where you can change the layout of the tracks, where the test track just becomes one lone straightaway for instance, and hearing this, I would be very surprised if that was restricted to the PS1 port only.
Connect a keyboard and hit TAB in MAME to get to the control set-ups. Find the GENERAL settings for input, and set 1player coin to a button hard-wired to your coin-input on the machine. Should work fine.
I know I'm four years late to this, but I wonder if this trick is known by the world record contenders, and if not, I wonder if it would be a game changer or not.
Old video, but a lot of people are talking about the RNG, and I don't think it's that at all.
When a game goes into attract mode, it always shows the same game playback (or in some more complex games, one of several replays). The positions of the cars and the player's inputs are recorded by the developers and fixed, so the attract mode replay works the same and doesn't crash or something else weird.
I think what's happening is that when you coin up with the splash screen active, the starting positions of the cars are randomly selected. But when it's in attract mode, the positions of the cars are already set by the pre-determined replay layout, so it plays the fanfare and starts you in that pre-set pattern.
A simple test of this would be to play a game, crash out, then coin up and play a new game from the splash screen, and/or from the attract replay, and see if you get the same pattern for those.
sounds like exploiting the RNG,
Predictable behavior when the game starts up seems like it might be beneficial to debug/troubleshooting in the wild. If you play on a Pole Position that does not demonstate this behaviour on startup, it might well indicate a subtle hardware issue.
hey John, maybe this means looking at patterns of cars after the qualifying round. If you can predict the pattern based on the coin-op it might make the other laps easier. Maybe getting the crappy grouping in qualifying makes the main laps work with the less congested pattern. A reward for timing the coin up on the demo map.
I heard down the grapevine,that John will tell us what camera he use,for his awesome video.John i have been waiting a long time for your secret.Just dont make daddy wait too long
+Fook Utube lol. It's posted in my forum. :)
Thank you John. Now mi go hav looky
High on straightaway, right before turn kick it in low and release the gas, then coming out of the turn throw it back into hi gear and slam on the gas.
Title is pure click-bait; this doesn’t involve a secret menu and it’s not a hack... At least he video itself was good.
You had to hold a higher speed,for 10 seconds to acheive turbo mode,which was near impossible to drive
Tie the coin door to one of the unused buttons on the controller and then just remap the button in the keyboard mapping for Retropie or inside of mame.
i real like pole position i dumped alot of money in it back in the day lol if i could get back all the money i spent in arcades mind you i started back in 77 i would be rich lol
Put a K7000 in the MK2!!!! Why would you even mess with that dam polo if you have 2 K7000 monitors!!!!
That's kind of what I was thinking. I have heard nothing but terrible things about working on Polos and the K7000s were some of the greatest arcade monitors ever made.
I keep mine in "free play" mode where it just loops...I guess that would negate the ability to do this. Really wish there was a free play with attract mode rom for this game!
Set it to paid mode and then just get an Easy Coin Up button. I use them on all of my machines that don't have free play available: www.easycoinup.com/
I wonder if you get bad grouping on the qualifier then it gives you good grouping on the race.
I know how its done arcade sales UK keycoder board or USB controller board to make coin door work
The only real pole position is a cockpit. upright is the poor man's version mostly found in trailer park homes
Do you have either? I love the upright.
As a fan of Pole Position (and since I played this game on Return of Arcade), this makes me want to give it a try on both versions: The Japanese Version, and the Return of Arcade version. Though, I'm not sure if the Return of Arcade version works.
John, do you know the secret with Tempest? I'll tell you if you don't know
What? I do not!
I tried it on a lot of Tempest games since 1982 when I first heard about it. It works every time. Even on my mame. Stop your score anywhere between 180,000 and 190,000. You have to have the last 2 numbers stop on 46. For example, 186,346. Then die. Wait at least 3 minutes and then start a new game. When you spin the dial to pick your starting level, you will be able to go to the highest level. If you can finish that board you will get a very high score. I think it's around 890,000. Give it a try I know you have a Tempest in your basement.
Matt McKinnon GET OUT
It's pretty cool. I read about it in a gaming magazine in the 1980s.
Iris Zizka I do!
Sounds like it's time to shop for some pins.
has anyone actually bought the dumb shirt?
Interesting John! I think you're definitely onto something with positions of the orange and white car during gameplay. What this means is that you will probably get worse at the game (At first due to being distracted) but eventually you and Matt will probably be contenders for the world record once the new technique gets refined. Good luck!
In the speedrun community, it's called RNG manipulation. Basically, you get the (pseudo) random number generator into a known state and know what events advance it in a favorable way. TwentyWasHere gives a good description of why it works.
how is the pole potion 2 doing is it making money
Oh my god I wish I could make it to that big opening. Too bad I live in Colorado.
Bob Marley same man
You live in Colorado? ; )
To Answer the viewer question on retropie, in Retropie you put the samples in a "SAMPLES" folder inside the "ARCADE" or "MAME" folder in the "ROMS" folder. You will want to keep them zipped or they will not play.
Not gone FOREVER; just until you decide to do the new release, like you said earlier.
It would be cool to see the MK arcade machine complete, just pass the monitor on to turtles & be done with it for now.
I remember on the Pole Position game I used to play as a kid if you put your foot under the gas pedal and lifted up you could get a higher top speed when pushing down. I don't remember if it was over 244mph though. I guess it was a bad POT.
~ It makes cents Johnny ~ Bee Well Buddy
Isn't it fun to learn something new.
Say did you, Shawn & JOW really shelve AO, or are y'all just taking a breather?
XO
Computer programs are incapable of true randomness. All elements of what seems to be "randomness" are simply programmed responses to player input.
Now let's have a free will and determinism debate! (kidding)
hmm... well I actually have both of the namco museum games on the PS2, I might have to test this theory! (the latter one is by Digital Eclipse so I wouldn't be surprised to get that effect on their version)
This would be an interesting project for Adam since he's building the FPGA Pole Position to watch the ram addresses and see if car groupings are predictable or if they're chosen at random when the game triggers a grouping to become visible. After the game has ran for a while that is and the RNG seed has been planted as the game seems to be starting up with the same initial RNG seed which is common of older games. As for the coin door in the viewer mail. They were fairly vague. What I'd do if they're tapping a controller is run the coin mech to start and then set start in mame as coin that way you can start snes, nes, and genesis via the mech and still use p1 and p2 start buttons but coin up with controller start.
NEAT! Do you think this will work on Adam's upcoming Pole Position Clone project?
Just got my poleposition. Working. I traded a commando for the cab with no pcbs. Found 2sets of boards with 2 dead cpu boards it works now but has lines going through the cars and signs
I've played this early 80''s and the bloody steering wheel was always loose and the car became drift like around corners...
I'm pretty sure I've played a pole position arcade at least once, it's a great game.
Wow this is nuts. Thanks for the vid man, his vid is gone now....
-Mitch
lol coin mech ate my quarter
To answer the RetroPie question, "Select" on the gamepad is the coin up button.
John should get a mappy
For the coin up option on the mek, wire the mek's output to an ipac key 5, so every time you coin up its hitting key 5 on the ipac :)
I have played both the arcade version and the Atari 2600 version and i loved that game.
Ha pretty cool! Interesting to think if there is something else to figure out now once passed the qualifying stage
Headed to The Player's Club to try this! Another great video John 👍
i got my coin door working on my retropie. just to go to the setting and make it so the door switch is the coin up
Super cool Video...Interesting to see that it work on the arcade game as well....
This is good to know because I’m interested in a tas run
I'm broke. Guess I have to wait until next year. :/
Hi all, that's a near trick with Pole Position ;)
Cool trick!! Going to test this out on my Pole Position game.
I'm not watching anymore in til the popcorn machine is clean
+pc Juggalo but how will you know if I cleaned it?
John's Arcade Game Reviews & Tech I don't know I'm contemplating that one still.
That's such an awesome trick for Pole Position John!
john when is the podcast coming back miss listen to you guys
Don't handicap your game by getting used to that cheat!
27:27 You want to be very careful about hooking a raspberry Pi up to a coin door, I suspect. The voltages down there may be way too high for a Pi.
+TheTurnipKing what? It would go to the switch. No voltages
what happens when the switch is open?
This wouldn't be an issue if you use a relay. Relays a basically virtual switches and isolate the two separate voltages. Also if the idea is to physically depress the button instead of completing the circuit.
most devices to connect a Pi to arcade buttons will properly isolate the voltages (like the current j-pac, apparently), but it's also possible to plug inputs directly into the GPIO and you really don't want to be accidently feeding a possible 12v from a coin door right into that.
TheTurnipKing
Yeah that's what I'm saying if you want to connect via GPIO then be sure that you are using relays. This is assuming you are building it into a cab with a full board and power supply. However if you are driving a cab COMPLETELY from a pi then it's perfectly safe to drive EVERY switch off of the GPIO as the voltage comes then from the Pi's own 3v rail.
sweet i just got one. i need to fix it first. its gone turbo -_-
i subscribed
WHAT THE ####
could this be an logarithm?
It seems you need new more pins at the hangar? Any ideas? I suggest The Gateway or ACDC
KISS pinball would probably do well for its price there
Convert your pole position 1 into pole position 2
now i can't wait to get home and try it!!!!
We need a vr pole position game now.
1
First I've ever heard of this 'hack', very interesting!
Meh
Video starts at 1:30
yeet
ONG!
we should try those start method on all namco games hehe
PS: wish you a great opening, unfortunately, i'am stuck in France (┳◇┳)
Its so cool that there are still secrets for us to find with the classics ^_^