I like how every step is not only explained, but documented in detail with the slides. Compared to other UA-cam tutorials, I find this format very comprehensive and I appreciate your work.
Outstanding. Yes I also prefer this format, as too many years in the military will do to you lol. I earned my PowerPoint ranger tab a long time ago hahaha. However, it really is difficult to find a replacement for PP even though we all say we hate it so much, it really is effective in getting information across in lieu of other means. In this case, it’s a lot of information, so I chose this format to condense it as much as I could so it’s both for visual and audio learners. Obviously the hands on part is up to you fellas haha. I’m glad these videos are appreciated. Thank you for the awesome comment.
That's exactly what I was thinking, this tutorial really gets into the specifics of why and not just how, all other tutorials seem to give just not enough information
I know this is 3 years old but it's still helping people learning to tune such as myself. Thank you so much brother.This is the most comprehensive video i've seen I've been lost on how to make graph and what they represent. I had my tuner put a base tune on my truck to get it running. He had a ton of air in it and the truck was self driving. I adjust a few airflow items and man it's almost a daily again. A proud moment for me to be completely new to hptuners.
Keep on it my friend. This stuff really isn’t terribly difficult to learn, and it’s soooo rewarding to be able to do your own mods and tunes without having to pay big bucks for folks that won’t spend much time on your ride. Plus later if you get good at it you can start getting some side jobs and making a few bucks on the side tuning other peoples cars. I can’t stand the majority of the tuning scene out there, and I paid good money for some junk tunes. Now I’m the one to bring it to when the shop messes it up. I have a solid reputation, but I only do a few a year because it’s a side gig, and I spend considerable time on anything I tune. A week at a minimum. Sometimes I can work out the bugs faster, but normally at least a week. That’s to nail down cold starts and cold driving too. I do it for much cheaper than shops charge too, but mostly I do it for the smiles, because I love making people happy with their rides.
I'm an old guy that always was a seat of the pants kinda mechanic, I'm thinking about getting a an HP tuner and watching your video was pretty foreign to me cause I didn't have a clue of the numbers u used so I'm trying to ask if your video is a beginner video cause it seems like this is a memorization exercise cause I can't see the relationship to air, fuel or spark. Maybe if I play around with the software I'll get more familiar. Either way, $400 ain't a fortune and I doubt I'll blow up the PPV! Thoughts?
By the way this is one of the most educational sources on tuning I’ve ever seen. Started reading into it a few months ago and you actually explain why you do things instead of just telling us. Thank you
Thank you for your comment. Really glad the video was helpful. That was the idea ;) I'm going to be making more, came on to post a new one in fact, then I saw your comment.
This is by far the easiest tuning video to follow. I have watched days of videos on here for tuning and this one makes things simple. No fluff no "OMG" look at me crap. Just simple instructions with good explanations as to why you are doing what you are doing. Thanks.
Thank you for this and especially on the PIDS to monitor and how to make the graph. I've watched a bunch of videos and nobody has covered those parts! The simple things that you experienced tuners take for granted are the stumbling blocks for us newbs! I really appreciate the no frills ELI5 approach!
Im in the process of learning to tune for myself. I added a cam upgrade {SUM-8701R1} to my 5.3 Gen3. Ive been looking at videos for weeks and yours , IMHO are far easier to follow than some of the other top tuning guys here on YT.
Just finished reading the answers to the comments. It’s like going to school with the detail you provide with these answers. Extremely educational and this video was worth my time to watch and learn the reason behind the changes. I totally agree with your philosophy on learning the why instead of just make these changes. Thanks for your Service time. God bless and stay safe.
I’m really glad these have been helpful for you. Knowing why is the easiest way to learn anything. It’s better than memorizing a process, because it’s not only easier to know they why, it also applies to later generations :)
Watched a few other SD tuning videos and the disabling is what messed me up. You have explained it to where I am comfortable knowing what I need to turn off. Thanks man!
I thought about going "speed density " on my mild built 6.0 (going big cam next year) but was scared lol. You make it look easy. Love how easy it is to follow. I had my hp tuner set up and followed it step by step and now I have a base map in a hour. Thanks it's much appreciated. Now if the weather would get nice (cold af)
@@ChopperDoc181 so after I get my ve tuned (I'm going to leave my maf off) I need to turn my eq ratio back to stock, turn back on my DFCO? (I dont have cats)
Thanks for posting this, I've watched and read instructions for this elsewhere and they all seem to miss mentioning why you're doing these changes etc. That's the info I need. You're a good teacher.
KW B I appreciate the vote of confidence. I believe the “why” is always more important than the step by step thing. Knowing why creates an understanding, and with that you can continue to learn even with newer cars and so forth. When I was an instructor at the school house for Black Hawk repairers, I used to teach some pretty advanced stuff to the new recruits, as I thought knowing why something like gyroscopic precession is a thing when rigging a hawk. Other instructors thought I was nuts for trying, but I found simple ways to explain why it was happening and the students appreciated the hell out of me taking the time and not simply assuming they were too stupid to grasp the concept. It was no where in our lesson plan, but I would add in things like that and even included Pascals Law and so forth so they could have a better understanding of the systems. I even included how to break down a NAS part number, as this is something I wish someone would of taught me when I was a young private. But alas, it was all shit I had to teach myself, because honestly, not many even know the numbers mean things. They certainly don’t know they actually represent size, thickness, and material data. All my students may not remember exactly what the numbers mean, but they at least will remember they mean something lol. Funny thing was, I was by for the most mentioned and praised instructor on the student end of course critiques because I didn’t just assume they were stupid and went the extra mile to help the grasp complex concepts with simple explanations. I continue on with this same attitude and I’ll take anyone down the rabbit hole as far as they want to go lol. I made it a point to understand it myself to an anatomical level, and it’s the same thing I do with tuning. I’m even still working on the idle formulas and transient fuel, though the latter is practically impossible, but not completely. It gets into thermodynamics, so it’s not an easy thing to reverse calculate, aka, evaporation rate on a certain fuel type, etc. It certainly helps me learn though, and that’s what I try to pass on to my audience here. Thank you for your comment. It definitely helps me stay motivated.
Sounds like an interesting career, I've always tried to dig deeper that simply how to repair something and it's served me well. The better you can understand something's function the easier it is to diagnose. I try to pass that along to my apprentices as well.
I have seen you on tech. I am really glad to see someone who really understands tuning, post such a directly at it, no fluff bs video. Ed M (rip) was the only guy I could learn from before, and I understand the whole VE thing. I have been tuning for several years now, but there is still a bunch I can learn for sure. HOPEFULLY, you will post up a few other videos. As a idea, it would be great if you would post up saving/opening/using different scanner setups. I have to re-create every time. I am sure I am making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I'm planning on making more videos soon. I usually make them on weekends because it takes me awhile to put them together. For the configs, I could cover that I suppose. I tune other makes, so that's a very handy feature to swap between GM and Ford for example. Completely different layouts and channels. What happened to Ed? I didn't hear about that.
@@ChopperDoc181 Ed Mowton passed away about 3 ish weeks ago. He was battling cancer. His son has some info up on his website. From how busy he was, I thought he had gotten better. He will be missed.
@@rpturbo I'm really sorry to hear about that. I kind of feel like I knew him through forums and so forth. I too learned a lot from him as I was getting this stuff down. I've been tuning for a number of years, but still have things to learn. Damn, that really bums me out. Thanks for telling me though.
Thanks for replying! I got tired of digging and not finding what worked so I ended up getting the serial adapter and going that route! It's working well! Got the ve table pretty much done, ready to move on soon! Had some fuel pump trouble with the car!
Thanks so much for actually showing how to do this . I have been to numerous channels where they talk about it for 95% of the video . You actually do it . Sub'd and liked. Please make more like this.
Busa0069 Do you leave PE EQ at 1.17 after tuning ? I see some N/A tunes with 1.386 PE enrichment. Is that because injector limits are getting close to max or just bad tuning ?
@@Busa0069 Yes, leave the PE EQ at 1.17, to command 12.5 ish at WOT. If the injectors are maxing out, you need bigger injectors. Make sure to log your duty cycle to check this, and if you are exceeding 100%, it's time for new injectors. There is math you can use for this too, if duty cycle is not a channel on your list. All you need is RPM and injector pulse width, and you can make a custom PID to log duty cycle. I typically use either the spark table layout or VE and log the duty cycle on that table to see where they are hitting their limits, if this is the case. The other consideration is fuel pressure. On heavily modified cars, fuel pressure can drop off at higher RPM, causing very dangerous issues as well. Bigger injectors can make up for it, but the right answer is simply a aftermarket, more capable fuel pump like the Walbro 255, or anything along those lines. They are only about $80 for the pump, and the rest is just the time installing it. If you need the math for the injectors, let me know.
More to come eventually my friend. When I’m home my family and projects take priority. It’s near impossible that I have time to make these stateside. Good news is I’m going overseas again soon so I’ll have more time for these things.
This is very straight forward. Great for Gen 3 LS tuning. Although, I wish there were some tuning videos tutorials on tuning the GM 3800 platform. Series 2 and 3. There's a lot of guys that are huge 3800 V6 lovers that would love to be able to tune their own stuff. Most have to get a canned tune and then make adjustments. I try to follow a lot of the Gen 3 tuning steps, but there are tables and parameters that aren't on the 3800 PCM. Fire instance, there's a ve table, but there's no tab for speed density. Ask the 3800 tuners say there's no reason to mess with the ve tables because the 3800 uses MAF strictly for fueling. I say bullshit to that because without the map sensor, the engine won't run. I'm finding it difficult to figure out how, or if I even need to disable anything in that department for MAF tuning since it doesn't affect fueling? Any help would be appreciated. These 3800s with blowers and turbos are crazy powerful.
Im learning to tune now thanks for the knowledge brother hopefully i can get my fueling dialed in cause its all over the place and rich but i keep hittin brick walls
thank you excellent video great narrative, one question: how come you do not disable the EGR Base correction under Engine \ Spark \ Advance? I believe this is too an adder when you are cruising and the EGR valve opens and bursts some dirty gases into the intake so the factory likes to up the timing by a few degrees there 800 - 4400 RPM in my case ie 2001 4.8L Chevy Silverado engine
Spark will not have a huge effect on fueling numbers at the end of the day. When adjusting the VE, we are simply trying to get the ratio correct. There are a bunch of spark adders, and it is simply not necessary to mess with spark until the fueling is right. Unless you get knock that is. Then yes, you have to pull timing out in those areas and address that, but keep in mind that a lean engine is more prone to knock as well, so fueling happens to be one of the first steps in addressing knock issues after timing is pulled.
So in the info, you say "The processes shown in this video can be modified and used to tune VE with STFT's simply by turning them on and then plotting them on the same AFR error table instead of the WB input which is shown in the video." I am very new to this, can you explain this portion more? I see in your video that you have an SD STFT graph, I would love to see exactly how that is set up. I realize this is a year old video, hope to hear from you soon. if there are other videos I should refer to, some direction to those would be awesome. love this video and the straightforward approach, I just feel like I missed something. thanks again.
I cover how to plot STFT corrections in this video at about the 11:00 mark: ua-cam.com/video/GjzAkwE-EAE/v-deo.html Instead of using the table shown in the MAF video, modify what your plotting, aka, AFR error, and simply put STFT's there instead. From there follow the rest of the VE video. I think I said it enough times though, you can't do this to tune Power Enrichment. You should seriously consider purchasing a good Wide Band O2 sensor (with gauge) so you can tune everything in open loop. I am tuning a Gen V right now, and that is exactly the same method. In fact, on a Gen V tuning the VE is paramount importance, because if you don't it won't even drive. Albeit, there are a "few" more tables on a Gen V to mess with. Maybe I'll do some videos at some point on it. I still haven't even got around to doing the Ge IV's I keep saying I'll make. I'm a busy dude, and I work like 16-18 hour days, so I guess that's why I haven't. I've been tuning this truck all week on my drives to and from work lol.
Very well articulated...Awesome.. Thank you very much, I learned a lot with this video. Easy to understand which makes it easy to put into practice. Thanks again ChopperDoc181.. Now if I can just relate this into my Screamin Eagle Super Tuner as well , LOL
Since you sound rather experienced I’m wondering if you could answer for me. I just did a cam only swap on a g8 gt and my new cam of choice is an Elgin 1840 otherwise known as the sloppy stage 2. Would you still recommend me adding 15% to the ve table? I literally just got to the tuning step and have only started my car once with dod turned off and being a newbie it’s overwhelming although I’m eager to learn for myself
Yes, a cam changes a lot when it comes to cylinder fill, and AFR's. The 1.15% is a pretty well accepted starting point, but it's not law either. If you feel given your mods that 10% will work better, then just add 10%. It's all going to get changed anyway. The reason we do it is just to keep it from getting TOO lean. A little lean is fine, so long as you're not pedal to the metal for extended periods lol.
Great video series man! Also not sure if you’re back overseas or not, but thank you for your service! I have a p59 gen III 6.0 drive by wire set up I’ve been fighting. It has a decent sized cam. I applied the 15 percent to the ve, but When I start it up it will run really rough and die. Unless I apply some pedal to keep it going, if I let off it dies. Once running some, all my values in my ve err are around -20. When I put it in gear it drops to about -10. It stumbles real hard, and I have to feather it to keep it alive(to much gas kills it too). Based on this, would I need to adjust more than just the ve and base rpm to keep get it drivable for a log? Also what is the order of operations the pcm uses to make its calculates? I feel dumb asking but I’m an old school engine builder/tuner, this is no simple adjustment job like I assumed it would be😂.
Also I did watch the previous videos and saw the scaling, would I need to scale everything that uses gps to match the 15 percent change on the VE table? Or would I need to go more along the route of figuring out my max vacuum, and use that as a starting point. I’m scratching the rest of the hair off my head on this one. P.S. Thank you for the explanatory videos, and the help in advance.
Thanks again for this vid. I have watched it several times over the last few months and glean more knowledge each time. Do you think you could do a "cam install tune" vid ?. As in I just installed a bigass cam in my LS1 and it has trouble at start/idle. Recommend some tune changes off the bat ?
I've seen alot of videos for tuning man but yours by far is the best for my application. You are very easy to follow with no additional crap. Thank you very much! Can I ask an important question? Ls 5.3 gen 3 I put in a .600 lift cam with durations around 218 int 227 exh Do I need to mess with injector timing?
Injector timing is subjective and optional in most cases. Typically people do it to clean up the smell with catless setups. It won’t significantly increase performance in any regard. So it’s up to you at the end of the day.
Really enjoyed that video. Thanks alot very informative . Do you think I'd be okay applying this to a gen4 e38 ? Only reason I thought to ask is the ve table in the video peaks out at the transition to maf I'm assuming? My stk ve table gradually increases like a slope . Maybe gen 4 uses different multipliers or maths? I'm totally guessing here. That's why I asked a pro !
It’s definitely different math on the Gen IV’s… It gets into a polynomial equation that results in GMVE. MAF and VE are always accounted for on either generation if MAF is active. VE is always the “backup” as well as a lookup when transitions exceed the MAF’s change rate for calculations. MAF is meant for steady state, basically, but can still handle slower transitions too. The process for calibrating the VE on Gen IV is no different really, except you have to use the built in VE editor, in order to change the 7 or so math tables that produce the “GMVE” result. But the process is the same - 1. Turn off the MAF (don’t unplug it though, unless you’ve split out the IAT sensor from the MAF). 2. Turn off the adders/modifiers. 3. Install a WB and disable trims. 4. Edit VE with the editor, using error from commanded vs WB. 5. Rinse and repeat, smooth table and carry out “assumptions” of non mappable cells to the edges of the table. 6. Re-enable MAF, and tune that with WB while all adders are still off. 7. Reenable trims, tune MAF again with trims (since that’s what it will use anyway). 8. Reenable adders/tune spark as required. Spark should be done as you go as well, if you are getting knock, etc. Don’t push spark until fueling is good. So basically the same process on some different tables essentially.
First off I love the SMG Camaro you have. I had the same year till I sold it right before COVID.. regret it so much! Anyway, I just found your channel in the quest to tuning my boosted ‘81 SMG. My question is: What is the order of operations for tuning a stock turbocharged gen3 p59?
Sorry for the late reply. The order shouldn’t change. Personally I always do VE first, then MAF, the spark. Keep in mind though before tuning I go through and set up things like spark, fuel, and other key tables with respect to the mods that were done prior to turning the key. It’s especially important if you are tuning a blower. But yeah, once initial setup is complete I do it in the usual order mentioned above.
Thanks so much for the step by step process. Thinking about tuning my cammed up 5.3 in my Yukon. It’s a small cam 209/217 500lift but it has 1.8 roller rockers and 7.450 pushrods,pac-1219 springs 600 . So I’ve made the cam beefier and able to handle some horsepower. I had a question. I forgot it. I wanna order the Hptuner today. Still in procrastinating mode If I wanna do it myself or get it dyno’d. Thanks man. Those Iraq videos are you?? Haven’t watched it yet. Be safe
Great video, just what I have been looking for but I am having problems when I create my VE Tune. I disable closed loop as per your instructions and the car falls flat on its face. It is super lean and backfiring. I can't get it driveable to collect any data in the scanner. When I turn closed loop back on it runs good. I am using a P59 ECM with the 3 bar speed density enhanced OS. Any Ideas? Thx
Add about 15% to your VE table, though it may need more. It is likely your trims are making up for the lean condition and adding lots of fuel to keep it running. It's ironic that most heavily modded cars run better in open loop, because trims have a way of playing with your low RPM areas and causing problems. This all goes back to cam. If you are tuning for boost, make sure you go ahead and double your 315 row, then select from 105 to 315 and select "interpolate between vertical bounds." You can also use your trims to get an idea what the VE needs to be as well. Just plot the error using STFT's instead of WB in part throttle areas. It will NOT work for Power Enrichment. You can activate STFT's by running closed loop, with failed MAF and go from there. For WOT, boost, and anything under PE mode you will need to use a Wide Band. Take it SLOW and don't rush into this if you are learning. Especially with boost. More fuel isn't going to hurt you as much as a lean condition will. Always error on the richer side. The only time that rich is a problem is at low RPM, and all it does is foul the plugs out, and reduce the life of your O2's a little. Lean on the other hand has the potential to destroy your engine.
Very Good Vid! Question Working on a swap vehicle with out Wideband need to get it running okay enough to work out all bugs before dyno, Has no MAF, I'm trying to get fuel trims close enough to run on its own. Need to use VE Tuning using STFT/LTFT, in the description you said " The processes shown in this video can be modified and used to tune VE with STFT's simply by turning them on and then plotting them on the same AFR error table instead of the WB input which is shown in the video." Can you Help me understand that little better?
Yes, all you have to do is build a table using your VE, as shown, and then just plot the STFT’s. Nothing more. The STFT’s are already corrections. That’s what they are. How much the PCM is correcting according to your NB O2’s. For GM I just use STFT’s by themselves and leave LTFT’s disabled. I do this after wideband tuning anyway because if they are on it will anyway. Some do LTFT + STFT / 2 as well. That’s more something I’ve done on Fords because they’re just weird. I’ve found STFT alone on GM is just fine and gets it plenty close. Don’t forget though, if you punch it, or otherwise enter PE, STFT’s are disabled, and you’ll be blind. I don’t recommend that method. In the low RPM areas STFT’s are perfectly fine to use to tune, and is also one of the last things I do on street tunes, like I said, since the PCM is going to use them anyway. So I adjust the VE after WB tuning so it’s closer to what the STFT’s (narrowbands) are actually reading and not the wideband that I’m going to remove anyway. Does that make sense?
No, I’ve done quite a few tunes but I don’t do it for a living. I’m actually the 1SG of a MEDEVAC company at the moment. That’s my day job lol. I take my time on customer vehicles though, at least a week, similar to how Steve Frost does it. You have to shake to bugs out and get all the cold start stuff working correctly. I don’t think a proper tune can be done in one session. I’ve seen a lot on forums complaining about the pro tunes across the country, but there are guys out there that do a good job and spend real time on the vehicle. It all depends on what is needed, but a full tune is exactly that. It takes time.
It’s actually the exact same method, except instead of using “AFR Error” under the “Maths” drop down, use EQ Ratio Error. Make sure you are logging EQ ratio commanded, and that your WB is set up to read EQ ratio. You will also have to set your Stoich To the appropriate AFR, which should be roughly 9.75:1 (E85). If you haven’t already done so, you will need a lot more injector to run E85, as it has less energy so it requires a lot more fuel. This can pose a problem as you work your way up the table. That also means a new fuel pump too.
For straight up Ethanol, the ratio is 9:1, and PE should be set to roughy target 0.85 Lambda. The EQ target for Boost is in the 0.78 EQ neighborhood. Hope that is helpful. And those targets are regardless of fuel type in most situations.
Hey guys! I need some clarification on logging with STFT. Am I suppose to change the data in the math to point to STFT? Or do i just select STFT instead of "AFR Err"? The logically thing to me is to set it to STFT, but im not sure how that data would make sense as applying it to VE table...
First of all, many thanks for your time to present this material. I looked and may have missed the answer to this, but when finished with the VE tune, do you go back and install the factory settings in the EQ ratio table where you have set it all to 1.0 in preparation for the VE tune? I'm planning on doing the boost tune after I get my initial VE tune done. Also, am I correct that if you stay in SD, your long term fuel trims don't work anymore?
You can return the OL EQ settings to factory settings. If you re-enable the STFTs and LTFTs they’ll work on either air model, so they’ll work in VE, yes.
It's not too clear on most tutorials but what is the tuning strategy for a blended tune of sd and maf? Do you keep it in maf only and work your way up to wot then tune the SD only under 4k rpms? Specifically, what is the sequence for WOT tuning to be on the safe side? Half throttle? Full throttle right off the bat watching afrs? Do you still just tune the afr error against commanded (maf only) at WOT? Sorry for all the questions as this part is not clear to me, yet.
Tune the SD first, then tune the MAF. The number you’re talking about is the dynamic airflow setting. When tuning the MAF just set that low and out of range. To go back to blended, simply set that number back to stock settings, re-enable everything as desired and you’re gtg. For WOT tuning, work up to it slowly so you have an idea of what the table will look like. Set an approximate amount of air above your midrange, and go from there with corrections. When tuning any airmass model the key is to avoid rapid transitions. Don’t stomp it. Just ease into it because all airmass models reflect “steady state” estimates. Throttle stomps will use transient tables and other estimations we can’t see to try to guess the pulse on the next spray. That’s not going to produce good numbers for your steady state tables like MAF or SD.
Informative video. My car has been recently dyno tuned only and would like to d VE tuning on the street. I am wondering, do I still need to make the values on VE table to 1 or I can still do the VE Tuning without changing the values. Will appreciate you input
Just adjust from the current values. I ASSUME they already addressed the VE, since a full tune typically includes this. If it is on MAF only, then you can either leave it be or start from scratch on the VE. I’ve done a few MAF only tunes for the sake of time, and disabled the VE. If it is blended like normal, with a dynamic air enable value in the middle of the RPM band, then just start from where they left off on it to get the real world values. If not and it’s MAF, you’ll have to do the entire VE tune process. There’s probably a way to use good MAF numbers to calculate VE values. I would have to play with the scanner but it could definitely be done with some user math. Sorry for the long answer but I don’t know what they did or didn’t do on your tune.
Thanks for your time and input. I am not sure what was done earlier. I have recently purchased the the hptuners, and I have learned from your videos and others’ videos as well. I guess I am going to start from scratch. I have already made a file ready based on your video. Just need to write it into my pcm and start logging.
Thanks very much for teaching us. Question, why set the equivalence ratio to 1 across the board? Don't you want it to be a little richer then 1 in certain conditions?
Yes you do want it richer in certain conditions. When it’s cold you want more fuel to help atomize enough for combustion. You can set the ratio to 1 above a certain temp, but you’ll also find that often with bigger cams running more air, you don’t need as much as you did on a stock calibration, if any. Bigger cams actually like less fuel, so this table can be adjusted as desired. So long as it’s 1.0 at operating temperatures, this is completely up to you.
@@ChopperDoc181 thanks for replying so quickly. I was also asking about sections of the map with greater throttle percentages. Under conditions more closely approaching wide open throttle, don't you want it to be richer then 14.7:1?
When you adjust the VE, it is based on the error from your fuel target. This target, under WOT or prior to will come from your PE table. Putting 1.0 in the OL/base table simplifies the target and calculation to be based solely of base fuel target and PE. You don’t want more adders than you need. Under PE, you should target 12.5 NA or 11.5 for boost.
I have dug deeper than I ever wanted to on this one. It's pretty much turning into a series at this point lol. There's a lot of factors, and right now I am working on compression physics, and more to make sure I am covering everything. Boost can be very dangerous if all factors are not taken into account. N/A isn't so bad, and most out there won't have issues following this guide. I don't want to miss something on a boost guide and have someone destroy their project. Also life has been in the way a bit, but I promise I am working hard on this. I spent about 6 hours yesterday building a compression calculator in excel, just so I can explain it better.
Great video!! Very easy to follow and learn. One thing.. my LM1 reads 13.5 and the scanner reads 14.5. I assume the afr error info in the histogram is based on the scanner value displayed. and that the LM1 reading is correct. How can I correct the scanner value? Thanks
You have to change the transform function to modify it. A typical transform (function) will look like: ( V / 0.5) + 10. To adjust it: 1. Find total range on data sheet or manufactures website, etc, that lists AFR by voltage. 2. Determine AFR per VOLT (linear value aka the denominator here) Example... Where AFR(1) = 10.0 @ 0.25V(1) and AFR(2) = 20.0 @ 4.8V(2) Formula: (V2 - V1) / (AFR 2 - AFR 1) So.... (4.8 - 0.25) / (20 - 10) = 0.455 < This is the linear value 3. Now, add the lowest value from the table, which was 10 in this case. < This is the Offset 4. Your function should look like (using these numbers): (V / 0.455) + 10 5. Now, assuming the voltage linear value is correct (the denominator), adjust it to match your gauge by modifying your offset value accordingly. So maybe to bring it down to the gauge reading, instead of using + 10 for example, adjust it to + 9, or to whatever number needed to match the gauge. This function should now look like: (V / 0.455) + 9 Hope that makes sense. I was thinking about doing a short guide on this, so maybe I'll do that this weekend.
There are also other built in transforms listed that may work better as well. All of this can be done in the "transform" pane, and at the bottom you will see the listed transforms (functions). At the top of the pane, you will see a button 'FX' which will say, "copy to user defined." After you plug in your numbers, simply select it for your transform function or save it over whichever other parameter you don't need if desired.
Chopper thank you very much for putting this information out there. It's invaluable. Once this storm passes I will be out there working on my VE and then on to MAF. P.S. are you still working with Helicopters? I've been working on twin IFR helicopters for the last 25 years.
I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful. Yes still working in the helicopter field, however I get a lot less wrench time these days due to my positions. I manage, teach, advise, etc... I guess we’ll see when I get my next assignment how things will go. I appreciate the comment. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
When you are in PE, if you are not getting the commanded AFR (slightly leaner), do you command a richer than 12.5 in the PE table or do you increase the values in the higher kPa range in the VE table? For example, at 5600 I am getting 13.2 AFR at 90 kPa and 6000 I am getting 13.1 at 90 kPa. My data log shows that I am commanding 12.5. A little lower in the rpm range, I am getting good AFR readings. I didn't know if the PE table is a multiplier of the values in the VE table or if the PCM only looks at the PE table when in PE mode.
Make the adjustment on the VE table. The VE histogram should show those lean values as a positive % error from commanded. The goal is to get that error under 5%, though some aim for 2% or less. Your error is over 5%, but not by much. Use the histogram to make the adjustment to your VE as shown in the video.
@@ChopperDoc181 would have saved me alot of figuring it out the hard way. My tuner is gone for work so I'm learning it starting from scratch. Your video was straight to the point step by step, with out just constant rambling to boast about your knowledge on the subject. Thanks man
Hi Chopperdoc181, I have a question at starting point 2:39 you multipled the table by 15%. My question is what math did you use to put 15% in this 1.15 decimal form, instead of .15? I need to add more fuel to my VE table, cause my AFR Error is really lean at 2000 and up on my Rpm’s.
1.0 = no change. The .15 = 15% of current (stock) numbers. The idea behind that is to tell the PCM to expect more airflow (because this is actually the air model) but in turn it will result in more fuel. The “ish” at the beginning is simply a start point to make it a bit richer before beginning the actual tuning process. It’s not supposed to be left like that. From there you would use your AFR error from your wideband to get actual numbers and adjust properly. Adding the 15% is just an assumption made on mods so you don’t blow the engine while attempting to get numbers. Richer = safer. Lean is mean and all, but can also literally grenade the motor. So it’s just good practice to fatten them up on fuel a bit at the start of a full tune. Hopefully that makes sense. There’s no math. It’s really based on what mods were done, then a guesstimate from there. Again, only done so numbers can be logged safely and actual tuning can be done, as in, using a wideband like you should be doing.
Specifically to your question, as I read it again, if you multiply the table by anything less than 1.0, you’re reducing the number. If you were to multiply the table by .15, well then the the numbers would be at 15% of what was shown. That means a number that was previously 100 is now 15. To go higher, you use 1, then add to that. So to go up 10%, you multiply by 1.1. To go down 10% multiply by 0.9, etc. hopefully that makes more sense.
Yes, actually you can but only in cruise areas. All trims are disabled when in PE, so in order to do WOT, you will need a WB. You already spent the money to mod it, another $150ish isn’t too crazy to ensure you get the tune right.
@@ChopperDoc181 I paid a mail order tuner to do the tune via logs and I'm not very happy with it. That's why I'm here trying to learn how to do it myself. I'll get a wideband. Is there one you recommend for ease of use and installation?
I don’t do remote tuning… I have several AEM 30 series, they have always worked fine. Any of them are fairly easy to install. If you aren’t doing a permanent install, you can pull one of the narrowbands and follow this guide. When you disable closed loop the narrowbands aren’t used anyway. You can touch up the cruise areas after with the NB’s once all the WB tuning is done. That’s what I do typically, to get it close to what the PCM will see.
For instance I have base fuel pressure of 50 on the land Rover system. I got LS3 42 lb injectors but the injector flow rate table shows 32-33 ish across the board. Does this seem correct? I know the other tables can account for this but I'm not sure if I have a bad starting point. Do you think I could send you a file/log to glance over?
That’s up to you and your application. If you want to leave closed loop off, you can. If you want to run it as a Speed Density tune, you can. Everything about tuning comes down with what you want and your goals. There are a lot of things you can do or not do to achieve a result. I’m simply showing how to do one particular thing at a time.
No, it’s only half of the trigger for PE. The other trigger for PE is throttle position % based on RPM. If you have it set to 105, then I’m assuming you’re running boost and using BE as the adder. Or at least I’d hope. Even in this case, most guys set it to around 80.
@@ChopperDoc181 00 Sierra with a 7875 set for 13 lbs. Yes Sir, I have BE set to 11.5 just like in your video. I will set it to 80 and see what that does. Thank you Sir
This is up to you. For a daily driver, I recommend using the MAF and leaving the VE as a backup table as it was designed to be. You can also reenable all of the other things too, like STFT’s and LTFT’s, DFCO and so on. If it’s a race car though, with a fat cam in it, you might find turning trims on can lead to problems, specifically LTFT’s, but if you want it to crackle and pop, you’ll definitely want the DFCO back on. I did a Camaro a few years back with a stage IV TSP cam in it and the owner wanted maximum crackles. So on that one I even turned on the Clutch Fuel Cut Off and boy I’ll tell you, it was awesome. That thing crackled just pulling into parking spaces lmao. So yeah, totally up to you as I don’t think there’s a specific list to turn back on, as that is up to the build and what you want.
Oh, and you can use whatever model works best for you. I still can’t get the 4” TSP MAF I bought to play nice on my 427. So it’s still off, and at some point I’m just going to take the L and remove the damn thing. It’s just there for looks at this point. I also have a custom intake tract that I made, so that’s not helping much. The air is just too turbulent for my specific application for MAF to be an option. As I said before, up to you. MAF is definitely the easier and more forgiving air model, which is also actually measuring airflow all the time. If you don’t have a wideband installed on full time duty, then you should definitely run MAF. In my case, there’s a wideband permanently installed in my toys, so I can run VE with no worries. Application matters. Racecar/toy with wideband = VE Ok. This is because VE is a mathematical assumption, and some factors are not accounted for, which means it can and does change from summer to winter and so forth. Altitude too. MAF is definitely the superior model for daily or often driven vehicles.
I will get back to working on these soon. I will definitely do some on the GEN IV stuff. The concept is still the same, tables are simply different, and there are more of them. But overall approach and concept is unchanged.
I disabled LTFT in the way described here, but the channel list in the scanner shows LTFT percentages when logging. Are there things I can double check? Is this normal?
What if I don't have a wideband? How can I get VE data in order to tune? The only PID I don't have is afr err and don't know how to get it. I have the MPVI2 and a 00 Single Turbo Sierra
Cruise and light throttle areas can be tuned using the STFT's (closed loop/stock O2's) however, once you hit PE (or BE) then all trims are disabled and the PCM goes into open loop. In your case I would do a permanent install because you have a boosted application where AFR is even more important to keep an eye on. Widebands go for about $150 normally... Hardly enough to keep making excuses and trying workarounds, because in any case there just isn't one. Not a safe one at least.
It’s really up to you. For a daily driver with no wide band installed, it is a good idea to put it back in closed loop, with LTFT’s on so the shorts can learn over time.
Work your way up to it. It will be the last area you tune on the table. Reason I put that in there was many of us want to test out our handy work after mods, but this can be dangerous if the fueling is not correct. Once fueling looks good in areas leading to WOT, and the slope on the table looks reasonable, as in realistic, then tune the WOT area.
I followed your guide to adding the wideband to the scanner, and as soon as I start scanning that channel disappears. I've gone back and added the channel three times and it still disappears. Any clue why it would do that?
Have you tried repolling the supported parameters? Beyond that I would check to make sure the wiring is good, grounds are good, that kind of thing. If none of that fixes the issue I would drop a help ticket with hp tuners support. They’re pretty good about getting back with you. I’ve heard of other problems like this with other channels. Try the repoll first.
@@ChopperDoc181 Pretty sure repolling helped, I made a mistake on my part also. I used the input from the MVPI Pro instead of the input from the MPVI2 pro link. Working great now! Thanks!
Can you tell me the first step to do with hp tuner 2? Fresh rebuild 2000 5.3 upgrades headers cold air wit stock MAF 598/602 Howard cam flex fuel injectors 2003 ecu 0411 off a flex fuel suburban turbo 400 trans. Ecu was tuned to delete vats egr etc ecu was supposedly tuned with specs sent but I won’t to do a fresh start tune. It’s In a 1984 c10. 2 front 02 sensors Do I really need the wideband for a street truck no drag racing just playing around a little once in a while ?
Are you talking about the MPVI2? As far as the software is concerned, there isn't any difference. I am still using the original MPVI 1 so physical setup is probably a bit different. As far as "first" step goes, this is a great guide to start with, because most are going to tune the VE first. Even to do idle tuning, you have to understand how to tune the VE table(s). MAF just doesn't work well enough for large cams and heavily modded setups down low to be a practical place to start for everyone out there and every setup. Though in some cases, it can work just fine, doesn't mean it will for everyone. VE on the other hand will ALWAYS work, no matter how crazy your mod list is. You can get it to play nice for you because you are telling it what to do for fueling, and you are the "sensor" basically as you modify the numbers in the table for the calibration. You can add in as much fuel as you want, or take away as much fuel as you want at a certain point in the RPM/MAP range. Normally we use a wide band to get accurate errors at anything above idle. At idle however, whatever it likes is what you give it. Large cams actually don't need a ton of fuel, so reducing it in the idle areas will help for surging if that's an issue. Conversely, MAF actually measures the airflow, and about a hundred things can make this a bad route for various reasons, just to starting out getting things to run right, you don't need to complicate it. Once you have everything running decent, then you can always go back and re-enable and tune the MAF. This is always done after the VE tune is complete though, and this is pretty much optional. Lots of guys just run Speed Density (VE) only and ditch the MAF completely. Always an option. MAF is more accurate though for daily drivers and will account for changes in climate through the year. VE isn't quite as good for this but it still works. However your numbers will drift a bit though the year. The change in most cases isn't big enough to worry about though.
@ChopperDoc181 : '01 411 running an express van tune L31&4L80E. When I set up the tune as you have laid out I still get some fuel trims unless I command "CLOSED LOOP OFF" under special functions. What could be causing this?
Sometimes the long term trims have to be cleared when starting a scan. It’s usually a good idea to clear those as a habit. If that doesn’t work then recheck your closed loop settings.
@@ChopperDoc181 yes I have always done the clear but its mostly at idle inless I command ltft lean and closed loop off in special functions will idle around 15.1 but drop to what ve table is when commanded off. Before commanding off all trims in the channel list will show 0.00 so Im slightly confuzed lol
@@ChopperDoc181 would it work to set ltft idle cells disable to 0% tps instead of the 1.6% stock to keep it out of idle trimming? Another question was gonna ask if high speed write causes errors in the ve table is the pcm possibly bad or going bad?
So I'm having trouble understanding something. If I'm running a Speed Density only tune, how am I to safely tune WOT? I'd setting up the tune as presented in this video, are you supposed to slowly work your way up to redline, say 1k at time? Or are you supposed to set the WOT areas arbitrarily rich and then tune with the error histogram?
Michael Gedies Keep it on the rich side and work your way up slowly. Even when going WOT, use smooth throttle transitions and avoid any rapid changes. Another thing that helps massively to get into hard to reach areas are hills and gears. You can pretty much get into the WOT cells while in 2nd gear (auto) going up a hill. Remember to be SMOOTH with the throttle. That’s the name of the game here. Creep through the throttle and get as many hits in as many cells as you can. Then apply the errors as seen in the histogram. And as previously mentioned, to be safe, add in a guesstimate of “extra fuel” when starting, as to avoid lean conditions. A temporary lean condition will rarely cause problems. A prolonged one is begging for trouble. So it’s okay to be off with your initial guess. In the video I use 15%, but this may or may not be enough for your particular engine. It all gets retuned, so it’s basically as you said, an “arbitrary guess” to keep it on the richer side, then of course tuning with the real data thereafter. Another thing you can do is load the brakes in gear too. This can get you to some normally unreachable cells too if a hill is not available. Aka, gas and brake at the same time so you don’t end up on the blotter. Hope that helps.
@@ChopperDoc181 That helps alot. Alot of tutorials focus on dialing the VE and reenabling the MAF after for WOT and PE, but I wasn't sure about Speed Density only. Do you have an email that I could send more detailed inquiries to? My email is gedies@gmail.com
Michael Gedies You don’t need the MAF to go WOT. I haven’t ran one in years on my own Camaro, no issues. Many people have straight up MAFless setups and run only SD, mostly for wild builds and boost. MAF doesn’t work for everyone, so the 4” one I bought years ago truly was a waste as it’s location makes it too unstable with my combination. And since SD is also the preferred boost airmass model, you can assume those boys run those engines to some serious stress levels and they hold together (most of the time lol)... It’s just an airmass model at the end of the day. MAF is the other. Stock uses both. There are 4 possible combinations: MAF CL, MAF OL, SD CL, SD OL. There is a 5th we call a “hybrid”, aka, OL idle, but with CL MAF or SD thereafter, typically over 1200 RPM. My email is prudance66@yahoo.com if you have more questions.
They do, but you won’t get any data when in PE, so it’s not a good way to do it. However, if going back to using STFT’s after the tune is done, I always tune the cruise areas using STFT’s since the computer doesn’t care about the WB anyway. It’s actually the last thing I do before finishing the tune, to get it close to what it will use from there on, aka, the stock narrowbands.
You can get the reading into the scanner through other means, like the AC Pressure sensor, EGR, or basically any other 5v input your PCM supports. From there you just have to put the right transform in and you will be logging data, I have a video for exactly this, covering the scanner portion and the transform. Should be helpful to you.
Question i was comparing how what you have labeled as a stock tune for a 1998 camaro with a 4l80e to a tune file i got from the repository labeled as stock tune for a 1998 camaro and the tables look alot different can you share that base tune file you have ? thanks
That file is in the 1998 folder, for my Camaro, but the actual file is from a 2002. I have an 0411 PCM installed with all the most current software, to include that tune. Sorry if that confused you a little. I think I covered a few of the differences in the 98 vs newer PCM's like the P01 (0411) in my introduction to HPT video. Your 98 file will have a primary and secondary VE table. The 0411 does not. It is important that you update the secondary VE table as you tune the main, because when the MAF is failed this becomes the primary table UNLESS you are running an upgraded speed density OS, which is included in the software now. If you plan to go back to using the MAF, then do not upgrade the OS. However you will have to copy the values from the main table row by row as you tune it. That's what most do, since there is twice as much depth on the main table. RPM range is the same, so you can copy each row after tuning the main.
@@ChopperDoc181 ok that makes sense now , I'm also using a 0411 pcm I guess what really looked different to me was the graph view of your VE table to start with compared to what I found in other "stock" tune files ,I look out for your posts In ls2 tech thanks
I'm tuning an 05 trailblazer 4.2 that is a speed density system only, I dont have an afr gauge and not looking for a lot of power, do I still force open loop to use stft or do I need closed loop to make it log
You have to run closed loop if you are using a wide band. Other wise there is nothing monitoring your fueling at all. STFT's aren't ideal, but they are better than nothing.
Will this work wit stage 3 cam 218/224 with btr ls6 560 valves spring with 7.400" 5/16" DIA Performance PUSHRODS with Brian Tooley Racing GM Delphi LS7 lifters n LS1 Rocker Arms With Trunion
@chief1986 So is it a diesel? I’m not sure I’ve ever had that issue on a gas vehicle. I had a duramax with a bad ignition though, and I had to pull the fuel relay to kill it everywhere I went until I fixed it…. I’m not sure I understand your problem.
I like how every step is not only explained, but documented in detail with the slides. Compared to other UA-cam tutorials, I find this format very comprehensive and I appreciate your work.
Outstanding. Yes I also prefer this format, as too many years in the military will do to you lol. I earned my PowerPoint ranger tab a long time ago hahaha. However, it really is difficult to find a replacement for PP even though we all say we hate it so much, it really is effective in getting information across in lieu of other means. In this case, it’s a lot of information, so I chose this format to condense it as much as I could so it’s both for visual and audio learners. Obviously the hands on part is up to you fellas haha. I’m glad these videos are appreciated. Thank you for the awesome comment.
That's exactly what I was thinking, this tutorial really gets into the specifics of why and not just how, all other tutorials seem to give just not enough information
I know this is 3 years old but it's still helping people learning to tune such as myself. Thank you so much brother.This is the most comprehensive video i've seen I've been lost on how to make graph and what they represent. I had my tuner put a base tune on my truck to get it running. He had a ton of air in it and the truck was self driving. I adjust a few airflow items and man it's almost a daily again. A proud moment for me to be completely new to hptuners.
Keep on it my friend. This stuff really isn’t terribly difficult to learn, and it’s soooo rewarding to be able to do your own mods and tunes without having to pay big bucks for folks that won’t spend much time on your ride. Plus later if you get good at it you can start getting some side jobs and making a few bucks on the side tuning other peoples cars.
I can’t stand the majority of the tuning scene out there, and I paid good money for some junk tunes. Now I’m the one to bring it to when the shop messes it up. I have a solid reputation, but I only do a few a year because it’s a side gig, and I spend considerable time on anything I tune. A week at a minimum. Sometimes I can work out the bugs faster, but normally at least a week. That’s to nail down cold starts and cold driving too. I do it for much cheaper than shops charge too, but mostly I do it for the smiles, because I love making people happy with their rides.
@@ChopperDoc181 Right on. Thanks again.
I'm an old guy that always was a seat of the pants kinda mechanic, I'm thinking about getting a an HP tuner and watching your video was pretty foreign to me cause I didn't have a clue of the numbers u used so I'm trying to ask if your video is a beginner video cause it seems like this is a memorization exercise cause I can't see the relationship to air, fuel or spark. Maybe if I play around with the software I'll get more familiar. Either way, $400 ain't a fortune and I doubt I'll blow up the PPV! Thoughts?
Yeah I'm 58 and just got my wideband and mpvi3 with the prolink from ws6store. Trying to learn as much as possible before I stick it in.
By the way this is one of the most educational sources on tuning I’ve ever seen. Started reading into it a few months ago and you actually explain why you do things instead of just telling us. Thank you
Thank you for your comment. Really glad the video was helpful. That was the idea ;) I'm going to be making more, came on to post a new one in fact, then I saw your comment.
I agree with you Richard 100%
@@ChopperDoc181 , excellent video! Very informative to us amature tuners. LS community thanks you for your efforts.
This is by far the easiest tuning video to follow. I have watched days of videos on here for tuning and this one makes things simple. No fluff no "OMG" look at me crap. Just simple instructions with good explanations as to why you are doing what you are doing. Thanks.
Thank you for this and especially on the PIDS to monitor and how to make the graph. I've watched a bunch of videos and nobody has covered those parts! The simple things that you experienced tuners take for granted are the stumbling blocks for us newbs! I really appreciate the no frills ELI5 approach!
I made that a point to include those things. Glad it was helpful.
Im in the process of learning to tune for myself. I added a cam upgrade {SUM-8701R1} to my 5.3 Gen3. Ive been looking at videos for weeks and yours , IMHO are far easier to follow than some of the other top tuning guys here on YT.
Just finished reading the answers to the comments. It’s like going to school with the detail you provide with these answers. Extremely educational and this video was worth my time to watch and learn the reason behind the changes. I totally agree with your philosophy on learning the why instead of just make these changes. Thanks for your Service time. God bless and stay safe.
I’m really glad these have been helpful for you. Knowing why is the easiest way to learn anything. It’s better than memorizing a process, because it’s not only easier to know they why, it also applies to later generations :)
This video might be 5 years old but it has helped me so much! thank you.
Also very glad to see someone posting useful tuning content.. Very New to tuning but quickly learning. Hope to see More videos like this.
Still learning HP Tuners and now went turbo but this is just straight forward and no bs in between.
No talking with the hands or “filler”
Thanks!!!
Watched a few other SD tuning videos and the disabling is what messed me up. You have explained it to where I am comfortable knowing what I need to turn off. Thanks man!
I thought about going "speed density " on my mild built 6.0 (going big cam next year) but was scared lol. You make it look easy. Love how easy it is to follow. I had my hp tuner set up and followed it step by step and now I have a base map in a hour.
Thanks it's much appreciated. Now if the weather would get nice (cold af)
This is great to hear. I’m really glad these are getting people started in the right direction.
@@ChopperDoc181 so after I get my ve tuned (I'm going to leave my maf off) I need to turn my eq ratio back to stock, turn back on my DFCO? (I dont have cats)
Thanks for posting this, I've watched and read instructions for this elsewhere and they all seem to miss mentioning why you're doing these changes etc. That's the info I need. You're a good teacher.
KW B I appreciate the vote of confidence. I believe the “why” is always more important than the step by step thing. Knowing why creates an understanding, and with that you can continue to learn even with newer cars and so forth.
When I was an instructor at the school house for Black Hawk repairers, I used to teach some pretty advanced stuff to the new recruits, as I thought knowing why something like gyroscopic precession is a thing when rigging a hawk. Other instructors thought I was nuts for trying, but I found simple ways to explain why it was happening and the students appreciated the hell out of me taking the time and not simply assuming they were too stupid to grasp the concept. It was no where in our lesson plan, but I would add in things like that and even included Pascals Law and so forth so they could have a better understanding of the systems. I even included how to break down a NAS part number, as this is something I wish someone would of taught me when I was a young private. But alas, it was all shit I had to teach myself, because honestly, not many even know the numbers mean things. They certainly don’t know they actually represent size, thickness, and material data. All my students may not remember exactly what the numbers mean, but they at least will remember they mean something lol.
Funny thing was, I was by for the most mentioned and praised instructor on the student end of course critiques because I didn’t just assume they were stupid and went the extra mile to help the grasp complex concepts with simple explanations. I continue on with this same attitude and I’ll take anyone down the rabbit hole as far as they want to go lol. I made it a point to understand it myself to an anatomical level, and it’s the same thing I do with tuning. I’m even still working on the idle formulas and transient fuel, though the latter is practically impossible, but not completely. It gets into thermodynamics, so it’s not an easy thing to reverse calculate, aka, evaporation rate on a certain fuel type, etc. It certainly helps me learn though, and that’s what I try to pass on to my audience here. Thank you for your comment. It definitely helps me stay motivated.
Sounds like an interesting career, I've always tried to dig deeper that simply how to repair something and it's served me well. The better you can understand something's function the easier it is to diagnose. I try to pass that along to my apprentices as well.
Man I watched a lot of videos and read forums and your video made the most sense to me…thank you for taking the time to make these videos
This is by far the best tuning video that i have seen to date.
I saw you on ls1tech and found you here. Thank you brother for your time and knowledge! Mike in DFW
Is that the Camaro with a 7.0 in it, at the end of the video? Is that car naturally aspirated and what rear end gears were in it? Thanks again!
Great video my guy, I sat here and setup my tune and scanner along with you the first watch through. Can't wait to go tune tomorrow.
Also, Just want to thank you for putting together this video.. It is the foundation for my understanding of tuning my Gen3 Ls
Good job you can't get no better than this the best one I found so far
I have seen you on tech. I am really glad to see someone who really understands tuning, post such a directly at it, no fluff bs video. Ed M (rip) was the only guy I could learn from before, and I understand the whole VE thing. I have been tuning for several years now, but there is still a bunch I can learn for sure. HOPEFULLY, you will post up a few other videos. As a idea, it would be great if you would post up saving/opening/using different scanner setups. I have to re-create every time. I am sure I am making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I'm planning on making more videos soon. I usually make them on weekends because it takes me awhile to put them together. For the configs, I could cover that I suppose. I tune other makes, so that's a very handy feature to swap between GM and Ford for example. Completely different layouts and channels.
What happened to Ed? I didn't hear about that.
@@ChopperDoc181 Ed Mowton passed away about 3 ish weeks ago. He was battling cancer. His son has some info up on his website. From how busy he was, I thought he had gotten better. He will be missed.
@@rpturbo I'm really sorry to hear about that. I kind of feel like I knew him through forums and so forth. I too learned a lot from him as I was getting this stuff down. I've been tuning for a number of years, but still have things to learn. Damn, that really bums me out. Thanks for telling me though.
Great instruction! Got my wideband installed and looking forward to getting my tune working better. Thanks!
Man the way you explain things help out big time .
You got me looking foward to watching all your videos
Thanks so much for this video!! I love how you walked thru everything step by step! Thanks for breaking it down!!
Thank you!
I'm using an analog thru EGR to the PCM to log lambda. How do I set the graph up for that?
I just saw this comment, oof, sorry for the delay. I have a video on how to log that and setup the math.
Logging DATA with MPVI STANDARD - AFR, LAMBDA, and MORE - Inputs Guide
ua-cam.com/video/aN7w7ytCd1E/v-deo.html
Thanks for replying! I got tired of digging and not finding what worked so I ended up getting the serial adapter and going that route! It's working well!
Got the ve table pretty much done, ready to move on soon! Had some fuel pump trouble with the car!
Great vid. I was baffled after reading some posts on the HPTuners forums. Your vid made those posts make sense. Thank you. Subscribed and liked
I appreciate your time and effort to explaing what and why you are doing what you do. Thank You. This is good.
Awesome vid. Been conversing with you on LS1tech about VE and maf tuning.
Thanks so much for actually showing how to do this . I have been to numerous channels where they talk about it for 95% of the video . You actually do it . Sub'd and liked. Please make more like this.
Thanks for the video, very informative.
I was having a hell of a time getting my brain wrapped around on how to do this.
Busa0069
Do you leave PE EQ at 1.17 after tuning ? I see some N/A tunes with 1.386 PE enrichment. Is that because injector limits are getting close to max or just bad tuning ?
@@Busa0069 Yes, leave the PE EQ at 1.17, to command 12.5 ish at WOT. If the injectors are maxing out, you need bigger injectors. Make sure to log your duty cycle to check this, and if you are exceeding 100%, it's time for new injectors. There is math you can use for this too, if duty cycle is not a channel on your list. All you need is RPM and injector pulse width, and you can make a custom PID to log duty cycle. I typically use either the spark table layout or VE and log the duty cycle on that table to see where they are hitting their limits, if this is the case.
The other consideration is fuel pressure. On heavily modified cars, fuel pressure can drop off at higher RPM, causing very dangerous issues as well. Bigger injectors can make up for it, but the right answer is simply a aftermarket, more capable fuel pump like the Walbro 255, or anything along those lines. They are only about $80 for the pump, and the rest is just the time installing it.
If you need the math for the injectors, let me know.
Finally, a step-by-step. Thank you so much for this upload.
Definitely subscribing 🤙
More to come eventually my friend. When I’m home my family and projects take priority. It’s near impossible that I have time to make these stateside. Good news is I’m going overseas again soon so I’ll have more time for these things.
Thanx for posting this, its very appreciated!
Damn I wish I found this sooner. This filled in all the blanks on every other video I found as I have very little knowledge of tuning.
Very helpful video and straight to the point thanks.
Thank you so much for taking it slow and explaining it !!
This is very straight forward. Great for Gen 3 LS tuning. Although, I wish there were some tuning videos tutorials on tuning the GM 3800 platform. Series 2 and 3. There's a lot of guys that are huge 3800 V6 lovers that would love to be able to tune their own stuff. Most have to get a canned tune and then make adjustments.
I try to follow a lot of the Gen 3 tuning steps, but there are tables and parameters that aren't on the 3800 PCM. Fire instance, there's a ve table, but there's no tab for speed density. Ask the 3800 tuners say there's no reason to mess with the ve tables because the 3800 uses MAF strictly for fueling. I say bullshit to that because without the map sensor, the engine won't run. I'm finding it difficult to figure out how, or if I even need to disable anything in that department for MAF tuning since it doesn't affect fueling?
Any help would be appreciated. These 3800s with blowers and turbos are crazy powerful.
Can’t say I’m too familiar with those. I’ve seen the tunes, but it’s been a long time. Most of those penguins already left the island.
Im learning to tune now thanks for the knowledge brother hopefully i can get my fueling dialed in cause its all over the place and rich but i keep hittin brick walls
Awesome video . Thanks for the education!
Thanks for sharing your experience. Very helpful.
Man you are a life savior ! Cannot thank you enough !
Some of these easiest understood videos here! Can you explain why you keep power enrichment on while tuning the VE table?
Great video, explained better than most I've watched. Any chance you have a video like this for a gen 4?
Great Video! Thanks for taking the time to make it.
thank you excellent video great narrative, one question: how come you do not disable the EGR Base correction under Engine \ Spark \ Advance? I believe this is too an adder when you are cruising and the EGR valve opens and bursts some dirty gases into the intake so the factory likes to up the timing by a few degrees there 800 - 4400 RPM in my case ie 2001 4.8L Chevy Silverado engine
Spark will not have a huge effect on fueling numbers at the end of the day. When adjusting the VE, we are simply trying to get the ratio correct. There are a bunch of spark adders, and it is simply not necessary to mess with spark until the fueling is right. Unless you get knock that is. Then yes, you have to pull timing out in those areas and address that, but keep in mind that a lean engine is more prone to knock as well, so fueling happens to be one of the first steps in addressing knock issues after timing is pulled.
thank you I get more information from you. please make more videos for gen 4 -5 , if you can, we are waiting with excitement.
So in the info, you say "The processes shown in this video can be modified and used to tune VE with STFT's simply by turning them on and then plotting them on the same AFR error table instead of the WB input which is shown in the video." I am very new to this, can you explain this portion more? I see in your video that you have an SD STFT graph, I would love to see exactly how that is set up. I realize this is a year old video, hope to hear from you soon. if there are other videos I should refer to, some direction to those would be awesome. love this video and the straightforward approach, I just feel like I missed something. thanks again.
I cover how to plot STFT corrections in this video at about the 11:00 mark:
ua-cam.com/video/GjzAkwE-EAE/v-deo.html
Instead of using the table shown in the MAF video, modify what your plotting, aka, AFR error, and simply put STFT's there instead. From there follow the rest of the VE video. I think I said it enough times though, you can't do this to tune Power Enrichment.
You should seriously consider purchasing a good Wide Band O2 sensor (with gauge) so you can tune everything in open loop. I am tuning a Gen V right now, and that is exactly the same method. In fact, on a Gen V tuning the VE is paramount importance, because if you don't it won't even drive. Albeit, there are a "few" more tables on a Gen V to mess with.
Maybe I'll do some videos at some point on it. I still haven't even got around to doing the Ge IV's I keep saying I'll make. I'm a busy dude, and I work like 16-18 hour days, so I guess that's why I haven't. I've been tuning this truck all week on my drives to and from work lol.
Very well articulated...Awesome.. Thank you very much, I learned a lot with this video. Easy to understand which makes it easy to put into practice. Thanks again ChopperDoc181.. Now if I can just relate this into my Screamin Eagle Super Tuner as well , LOL
INSANELY GREAT VIDEO MAN THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since you sound rather experienced I’m wondering if you could answer for me. I just did a cam only swap on a g8 gt and my new cam of choice is an Elgin 1840 otherwise known as the sloppy stage 2. Would you still recommend me adding 15% to the ve table? I literally just got to the tuning step and have only started my car once with dod turned off and being a newbie it’s overwhelming although I’m eager to learn for myself
Yes, a cam changes a lot when it comes to cylinder fill, and AFR's. The 1.15% is a pretty well accepted starting point, but it's not law either. If you feel given your mods that 10% will work better, then just add 10%. It's all going to get changed anyway. The reason we do it is just to keep it from getting TOO lean. A little lean is fine, so long as you're not pedal to the metal for extended periods lol.
Great video series man! Also not sure if you’re back overseas or not, but thank you for your service!
I have a p59 gen III 6.0 drive by wire set up I’ve been fighting. It has a decent sized cam. I applied the 15 percent to the ve, but When I start it up it will run really rough and die. Unless I apply some pedal to keep it going, if I let off it dies. Once running some, all my values in my ve err are around -20. When I put it in gear it drops to about -10. It stumbles real hard, and I have to feather it to keep it alive(to much gas kills it too). Based on this, would I need to adjust more than just the ve and base rpm to keep get it drivable for a log?
Also what is the order of operations the pcm uses to make its calculates? I feel dumb asking but I’m an old school engine builder/tuner, this is no simple adjustment job like I assumed it would be😂.
Also I did watch the previous videos and saw the scaling, would I need to scale everything that uses gps to match the 15 percent change on the VE table? Or would I need to go more along the route of figuring out my max vacuum, and use that as a starting point. I’m scratching the rest of the hair off my head on this one. P.S. Thank you for the explanatory videos, and the help in advance.
Thanks again for this vid. I have watched it several times over the last few months and glean more knowledge each time. Do you think you could do a "cam install tune" vid ?. As in I just installed a bigass cam in my LS1 and it has trouble at start/idle. Recommend some tune changes off the bat ?
Yes, Chopper has a great way of explaining why he is doing what he does so a cam idle tuning/hunting/surging video from him would be gold! 😉
I've seen alot of videos for tuning man but yours by far is the best for my application.
You are very easy to follow with no additional crap.
Thank you very much!
Can I ask an important question?
Ls 5.3 gen 3
I put in a .600 lift cam with durations around 218 int 227 exh
Do I need to mess with injector timing?
Injector timing is subjective and optional in most cases. Typically people do it to clean up the smell with catless setups. It won’t significantly increase performance in any regard. So it’s up to you at the end of the day.
Subbed - good work on these vids!
Really enjoyed that video. Thanks alot very informative . Do you think I'd be okay applying this to a gen4 e38 ? Only reason I thought to ask is the ve table in the video peaks out at the transition to maf I'm assuming? My stk ve table gradually increases like a slope . Maybe gen 4 uses different multipliers or maths? I'm totally guessing here. That's why I asked a pro !
It’s definitely different math on the Gen IV’s… It gets into a polynomial equation that results in GMVE. MAF and VE are always accounted for on either generation if MAF is active. VE is always the “backup” as well as a lookup when transitions exceed the MAF’s change rate for calculations. MAF is meant for steady state, basically, but can still handle slower transitions too.
The process for calibrating the VE on Gen IV is no different really, except you have to use the built in VE editor, in order to change the 7 or so math tables that produce the “GMVE” result. But the process is the same -
1. Turn off the MAF (don’t unplug it though, unless you’ve split out the IAT sensor from the MAF).
2. Turn off the adders/modifiers.
3. Install a WB and disable trims.
4. Edit VE with the editor, using error from commanded vs WB.
5. Rinse and repeat, smooth table and carry out “assumptions” of non mappable cells to the edges of the table.
6. Re-enable MAF, and tune that with WB while all adders are still off.
7. Reenable trims, tune MAF again with trims (since that’s what it will use anyway).
8. Reenable adders/tune spark as required. Spark should be done as you go as well, if you are getting knock, etc. Don’t push spark until fueling is good.
So basically the same process on some different tables essentially.
First off I love the SMG Camaro you have. I had the same year till I sold it right before COVID.. regret it so much!
Anyway, I just found your channel in the quest to tuning my boosted ‘81 SMG.
My question is:
What is the order of operations for tuning a stock turbocharged gen3 p59?
Sorry for the late reply. The order shouldn’t change. Personally I always do VE first, then MAF, the spark. Keep in mind though before tuning I go through and set up things like spark, fuel, and other key tables with respect to the mods that were done prior to turning the key. It’s especially important if you are tuning a blower. But yeah, once initial setup is complete I do it in the usual order mentioned above.
@@ChopperDoc181 hey thank you for replying.
Thanks so much for the step by step process. Thinking about tuning my cammed up 5.3 in my Yukon. It’s a small cam 209/217 500lift but it has 1.8 roller rockers and 7.450 pushrods,pac-1219 springs 600 . So I’ve made the cam beefier and able to handle some horsepower. I had a question. I forgot it. I wanna order the Hptuner today. Still in procrastinating mode If I wanna do it myself or get it dyno’d. Thanks man. Those Iraq videos are you?? Haven’t watched it yet. Be safe
Great video, just what I have been looking for but I am having problems when I create my VE Tune. I disable closed loop as per your instructions and the car falls flat on its face. It is super lean and backfiring. I can't get it driveable to collect any data in the scanner. When I turn closed loop back on it runs good. I am using a P59 ECM with the 3 bar speed density enhanced OS. Any Ideas? Thx
Add about 15% to your VE table, though it may need more. It is likely your trims are making up for the lean condition and adding lots of fuel to keep it running. It's ironic that most heavily modded cars run better in open loop, because trims have a way of playing with your low RPM areas and causing problems. This all goes back to cam. If you are tuning for boost, make sure you go ahead and double your 315 row, then select from 105 to 315 and select "interpolate between vertical bounds."
You can also use your trims to get an idea what the VE needs to be as well. Just plot the error using STFT's instead of WB in part throttle areas. It will NOT work for Power Enrichment. You can activate STFT's by running closed loop, with failed MAF and go from there. For WOT, boost, and anything under PE mode you will need to use a Wide Band.
Take it SLOW and don't rush into this if you are learning. Especially with boost. More fuel isn't going to hurt you as much as a lean condition will. Always error on the richer side. The only time that rich is a problem is at low RPM, and all it does is foul the plugs out, and reduce the life of your O2's a little. Lean on the other hand has the potential to destroy your engine.
Very Good Vid! Question Working on a swap vehicle with out Wideband need to get it running okay enough to work out all bugs before dyno, Has no MAF, I'm trying to get fuel trims close enough to run on its own. Need to use VE Tuning using STFT/LTFT, in the description you said " The processes shown in this video can be modified and used to tune VE with STFT's simply by turning them on and then plotting them on the same AFR error table instead of the WB input which is shown in the video." Can you Help me understand that little better?
Yes, all you have to do is build a table using your VE, as shown, and then just plot the STFT’s. Nothing more. The STFT’s are already corrections. That’s what they are. How much the PCM is correcting according to your NB O2’s. For GM I just use STFT’s by themselves and leave LTFT’s disabled. I do this after wideband tuning anyway because if they are on it will anyway. Some do LTFT + STFT / 2 as well. That’s more something I’ve done on Fords because they’re just weird. I’ve found STFT alone on GM is just fine and gets it plenty close.
Don’t forget though, if you punch it, or otherwise enter PE, STFT’s are disabled, and you’ll be blind. I don’t recommend that method. In the low RPM areas STFT’s are perfectly fine to use to tune, and is also one of the last things I do on street tunes, like I said, since the PCM is going to use them anyway. So I adjust the VE after WB tuning so it’s closer to what the STFT’s (narrowbands) are actually reading and not the wideband that I’m going to remove anyway.
Does that make sense?
great video! very informative. do you tune professionally? If so I would definitely hire you to finish my tune my tuner cant finish!
No, I’ve done quite a few tunes but I don’t do it for a living. I’m actually the 1SG of a MEDEVAC company at the moment. That’s my day job lol. I take my time on customer vehicles though, at least a week, similar to how Steve Frost does it. You have to shake to bugs out and get all the cold start stuff working correctly. I don’t think a proper tune can be done in one session. I’ve seen a lot on forums complaining about the pro tunes across the country, but there are guys out there that do a good job and spend real time on the vehicle. It all depends on what is needed, but a full tune is exactly that. It takes time.
Love the videos ! Do you have anything on how to set up a histogram for EQ ratio error ? Reason I ask is I'm doing ethanol .
It’s actually the exact same method, except instead of using “AFR Error” under the “Maths” drop down, use EQ Ratio Error. Make sure you are logging EQ ratio commanded, and that your WB is set up to read EQ ratio.
You will also have to set your Stoich To the appropriate AFR, which should be roughly 9.75:1 (E85). If you haven’t already done so, you will need a lot more injector to run E85, as it has less energy so it requires a lot more fuel. This can pose a problem as you work your way up the table. That also means a new fuel pump too.
For straight up Ethanol, the ratio is 9:1, and PE should be set to roughy target 0.85 Lambda. The EQ target for Boost is in the 0.78 EQ neighborhood. Hope that is helpful. And those targets are regardless of fuel type in most situations.
@@ChopperDoc181 thanks ! Helps alot !
Hey guys! I need some clarification on logging with STFT. Am I suppose to change the data in the math to point to STFT? Or do i just select STFT instead of "AFR Err"? The logically thing to me is to set it to STFT, but im not sure how that data would make sense as applying it to VE table...
First of all, many thanks for your time to present this material. I looked and may have missed the answer to this, but when finished with the VE tune, do you go back and install the factory settings in the EQ ratio table where you have set it all to 1.0 in preparation for the VE tune? I'm planning on doing the boost tune after I get my initial VE tune done. Also, am I correct that if you stay in SD, your long term fuel trims don't work anymore?
You can return the OL EQ settings to factory settings. If you re-enable the STFTs and LTFTs they’ll work on either air model, so they’ll work in VE, yes.
@@ChopperDoc181 OK, thank you.
It's not too clear on most tutorials but what is the tuning strategy for a blended tune of sd and maf?
Do you keep it in maf only and work your way up to wot then tune the SD only under 4k rpms?
Specifically, what is the sequence for WOT tuning to be on the safe side? Half throttle? Full throttle right off the bat watching afrs?
Do you still just tune the afr error against commanded (maf only) at WOT?
Sorry for all the questions as this part is not clear to me, yet.
Tune the SD first, then tune the MAF. The number you’re talking about is the dynamic airflow setting. When tuning the MAF just set that low and out of range. To go back to blended, simply set that number back to stock settings, re-enable everything as desired and you’re gtg.
For WOT tuning, work up to it slowly so you have an idea of what the table will look like. Set an approximate amount of air above your midrange, and go from there with corrections.
When tuning any airmass model the key is to avoid rapid transitions. Don’t stomp it. Just ease into it because all airmass models reflect “steady state” estimates. Throttle stomps will use transient tables and other estimations we can’t see to try to guess the pulse on the next spray. That’s not going to produce good numbers for your steady state tables like MAF or SD.
Informative video. My car has been recently dyno tuned only and would like to d VE tuning on the street. I am wondering, do I still need to make the values on VE table to 1 or I can still do the VE Tuning without changing the values. Will appreciate you input
Just adjust from the current values. I ASSUME they already addressed the VE, since a full tune typically includes this. If it is on MAF only, then you can either leave it be or start from scratch on the VE. I’ve done a few MAF only tunes for the sake of time, and disabled the VE.
If it is blended like normal, with a dynamic air enable value in the middle of the RPM band, then just start from where they left off on it to get the real world values.
If not and it’s MAF, you’ll have to do the entire VE tune process. There’s probably a way to use good MAF numbers to calculate VE values. I would have to play with the scanner but it could definitely be done with some user math.
Sorry for the long answer but I don’t know what they did or didn’t do on your tune.
Thanks for your time and input. I am not sure what was done earlier. I have recently purchased the the hptuners, and I have learned from your videos and others’ videos as well. I guess I am going to start from scratch. I have already made a file ready based on your video. Just need to write it into my pcm and start logging.
Thanks very much for teaching us. Question, why set the equivalence ratio to 1 across the board? Don't you want it to be a little richer then 1 in certain conditions?
Yes you do want it richer in certain conditions. When it’s cold you want more fuel to help atomize enough for combustion. You can set the ratio to 1 above a certain temp, but you’ll also find that often with bigger cams running more air, you don’t need as much as you did on a stock calibration, if any. Bigger cams actually like less fuel, so this table can be adjusted as desired. So long as it’s 1.0 at operating temperatures, this is completely up to you.
@@ChopperDoc181 thanks for replying so quickly. I was also asking about sections of the map with greater throttle percentages. Under conditions more closely approaching wide open throttle, don't you want it to be richer then 14.7:1?
When you adjust the VE, it is based on the error from your fuel target. This target, under WOT or prior to will come from your PE table. Putting 1.0 in the OL/base table simplifies the target and calculation to be based solely of base fuel target and PE. You don’t want more adders than you need. Under PE, you should target 12.5 NA or 11.5 for boost.
Will this work for a 05 Chevy Suburban 3rd generation lm7 with a small cam upgrade I am new to the HP tuners
What size fuel injectors are you using for this setup?
Thanks for the vid ! any tips on SD 2 bar tuning ?
I'm working on this one right now. Give me a few more days, should have something for ya!
I have dug deeper than I ever wanted to on this one. It's pretty much turning into a series at this point lol. There's a lot of factors, and right now I am working on compression physics, and more to make sure I am covering everything. Boost can be very dangerous if all factors are not taken into account. N/A isn't so bad, and most out there won't have issues following this guide. I don't want to miss something on a boost guide and have someone destroy their project. Also life has been in the way a bit, but I promise I am working hard on this. I spent about 6 hours yesterday building a compression calculator in excel, just so I can explain it better.
Great video!! Very easy to follow and learn. One thing.. my LM1 reads 13.5 and the scanner reads 14.5. I assume
the afr error info in the histogram is based on the scanner value displayed. and that the LM1 reading is correct. How can I correct the scanner value? Thanks
You have to change the transform function to modify it. A typical transform (function) will look like: ( V / 0.5) + 10.
To adjust it:
1. Find total range on data sheet or manufactures website, etc, that lists AFR by voltage.
2. Determine AFR per VOLT (linear value aka the denominator here)
Example... Where AFR(1) = 10.0 @ 0.25V(1) and AFR(2) = 20.0 @ 4.8V(2)
Formula: (V2 - V1) / (AFR 2 - AFR 1) So.... (4.8 - 0.25) / (20 - 10) = 0.455 < This is the linear value
3. Now, add the lowest value from the table, which was 10 in this case. < This is the Offset
4. Your function should look like (using these numbers): (V / 0.455) + 10
5. Now, assuming the voltage linear value is correct (the denominator), adjust it to match your gauge by modifying your offset value accordingly. So maybe to bring it down to the gauge reading, instead of using + 10 for example, adjust it to + 9, or to whatever number needed to match the gauge.
This function should now look like: (V / 0.455) + 9
Hope that makes sense.
I was thinking about doing a short guide on this, so maybe I'll do that this weekend.
There are also other built in transforms listed that may work better as well. All of this can be done in the "transform" pane, and at the bottom you will see the listed transforms (functions). At the top of the pane, you will see a button 'FX' which will say, "copy to user defined." After you plug in your numbers, simply select it for your transform function or save it over whichever other parameter you don't need if desired.
@@ChopperDoc181 Thanks for the info !
Chopper thank you very much for putting this information out there. It's invaluable. Once this storm passes I will be out there working on my VE and then on to MAF. P.S. are you still working with Helicopters? I've been working on twin IFR helicopters for the last 25 years.
I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful. Yes still working in the helicopter field, however I get a lot less wrench time these days due to my positions. I manage, teach, advise, etc... I guess we’ll see when I get my next assignment how things will go. I appreciate the comment. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
When you are in PE, if you are not getting the commanded AFR (slightly leaner), do you command a richer than 12.5 in the PE table or do you increase the values in the higher kPa range in the VE table? For example, at 5600 I am getting 13.2 AFR at 90 kPa and 6000 I am getting 13.1 at 90 kPa. My data log shows that I am commanding 12.5. A little lower in the rpm range, I am getting good AFR readings. I didn't know if the PE table is a multiplier of the values in the VE table or if the PCM only looks at the PE table when in PE mode.
Make the adjustment on the VE table. The VE histogram should show those lean values as a positive % error from commanded. The goal is to get that error under 5%, though some aim for 2% or less. Your error is over 5%, but not by much. Use the histogram to make the adjustment to your VE as shown in the video.
@@ChopperDoc181 Thank you.
Man I wish I would have seen this 2 weeks ago
What happened?
@@ChopperDoc181 would have saved me alot of figuring it out the hard way. My tuner is gone for work so I'm learning it starting from scratch. Your video was straight to the point step by step, with out just constant rambling to boast about your knowledge on the subject. Thanks man
Hi Chopperdoc181, I have a question at starting point 2:39 you multipled the table by 15%.
My question is what math did you use to put 15% in this 1.15 decimal form, instead of .15? I need to add more fuel to my VE table, cause my AFR Error is really lean at 2000 and up on my Rpm’s.
1.0 = no change. The .15 = 15% of current (stock) numbers. The idea behind that is to tell the PCM to expect more airflow (because this is actually the air model) but in turn it will result in more fuel.
The “ish” at the beginning is simply a start point to make it a bit richer before beginning the actual tuning process. It’s not supposed to be left like that. From there you would use your AFR error from your wideband to get actual numbers and adjust properly. Adding the 15% is just an assumption made on mods so you don’t blow the engine while attempting to get numbers. Richer = safer. Lean is mean and all, but can also literally grenade the motor. So it’s just good practice to fatten them up on fuel a bit at the start of a full tune.
Hopefully that makes sense. There’s no math. It’s really based on what mods were done, then a guesstimate from there. Again, only done so numbers can be logged safely and actual tuning can be done, as in, using a wideband like you should be doing.
Specifically to your question, as I read it again, if you multiply the table by anything less than 1.0, you’re reducing the number. If you were to multiply the table by .15, well then the the numbers would be at 15% of what was shown. That means a number that was previously 100 is now 15. To go higher, you use 1, then add to that. So to go up 10%, you multiply by 1.1. To go down 10% multiply by 0.9, etc. hopefully that makes more sense.
Keep going bro
What an amazing guide. I have a 5.3 with btr truck Norris cam swapped into a land Rover. Can you do this VE tuning with the stock narrowbands?
Yes, actually you can but only in cruise areas. All trims are disabled when in PE, so in order to do WOT, you will need a WB. You already spent the money to mod it, another $150ish isn’t too crazy to ensure you get the tune right.
@@ChopperDoc181 I paid a mail order tuner to do the tune via logs and I'm not very happy with it. That's why I'm here trying to learn how to do it myself. I'll get a wideband. Is there one you recommend for ease of use and installation?
Also, do you offer remote tuning?
I don’t do remote tuning… I have several AEM 30 series, they have always worked fine. Any of them are fairly easy to install. If you aren’t doing a permanent install, you can pull one of the narrowbands and follow this guide. When you disable closed loop the narrowbands aren’t used anyway. You can touch up the cruise areas after with the NB’s once all the WB tuning is done. That’s what I do typically, to get it close to what the PCM will see.
For instance I have base fuel pressure of 50 on the land Rover system. I got LS3 42 lb injectors but the injector flow rate table shows 32-33 ish across the board. Does this seem correct? I know the other tables can account for this but I'm not sure if I have a bad starting point. Do you think I could send you a file/log to glance over?
I got lost at the end.
Everything you turned off in the beginning for tunning purposes do we turn everything back on once we are done tuning?
That’s up to you and your application. If you want to leave closed loop off, you can. If you want to run it as a Speed Density tune, you can.
Everything about tuning comes down with what you want and your goals. There are a lot of things you can do or not do to achieve a result. I’m simply showing how to do one particular thing at a time.
Outstanding! You have the PE Enrichment MAP set at 15 kpa in this video, mine is at 105 kpa. Newb question, Is there a gain from that?
No, it’s only half of the trigger for PE. The other trigger for PE is throttle position % based on RPM.
If you have it set to 105, then I’m assuming you’re running boost and using BE as the adder. Or at least I’d hope. Even in this case, most guys set it to around 80.
@@ChopperDoc181 00 Sierra with a 7875 set for 13 lbs. Yes Sir, I have BE set to 11.5 just like in your video. I will set it to 80 and see what that does. Thank you Sir
dose anyone know from where can i buy the 6.0 / 4L80E LS Swap GM 0411 PCM ECM
After tuning ve table and removing maf sensor, what need to re-enable again or just leave what have been made from tune?
This is up to you. For a daily driver, I recommend using the MAF and leaving the VE as a backup table as it was designed to be. You can also reenable all of the other things too, like STFT’s and LTFT’s, DFCO and so on.
If it’s a race car though, with a fat cam in it, you might find turning trims on can lead to problems, specifically LTFT’s, but if you want it to crackle and pop, you’ll definitely want the DFCO back on. I did a Camaro a few years back with a stage IV TSP cam in it and the owner wanted maximum crackles. So on that one I even turned on the Clutch Fuel Cut Off and boy I’ll tell you, it was awesome. That thing crackled just pulling into parking spaces lmao. So yeah, totally up to you as I don’t think there’s a specific list to turn back on, as that is up to the build and what you want.
Oh, and you can use whatever model works best for you. I still can’t get the 4” TSP MAF I bought to play nice on my 427. So it’s still off, and at some point I’m just going to take the L and remove the damn thing. It’s just there for looks at this point. I also have a custom intake tract that I made, so that’s not helping much. The air is just too turbulent for my specific application for MAF to be an option.
As I said before, up to you. MAF is definitely the easier and more forgiving air model, which is also actually measuring airflow all the time. If you don’t have a wideband installed on full time duty, then you should definitely run MAF. In my case, there’s a wideband permanently installed in my toys, so I can run VE with no worries. Application matters. Racecar/toy with wideband = VE Ok. This is because VE is a mathematical assumption, and some factors are not accounted for, which means it can and does change from summer to winter and so forth. Altitude too. MAF is definitely the superior model for daily or often driven vehicles.
Please start doing some videos for Gen 4 stuff. For a newbie to tuning, the tables are just too different to make much sense of it.
I will get back to working on these soon. I will definitely do some on the GEN IV stuff. The concept is still the same, tables are simply different, and there are more of them. But overall approach and concept is unchanged.
It would be nice to include the 4th gen LT1. Nobody wants to tune them anymore because of the LS.
I disabled LTFT in the way described here, but the channel list in the scanner shows LTFT percentages when logging. Are there things I can double check? Is this normal?
Try resetting them in the scanner too.
@@ChopperDoc181 Bingo bango. That did it sir. Thanks for monitoring this net years after the fact.
What if I don't have a wideband? How can I get VE data in order to tune? The only PID I don't have is afr err and don't know how to get it. I have the MPVI2 and a 00 Single Turbo Sierra
Cruise and light throttle areas can be tuned using the STFT's (closed loop/stock O2's) however, once you hit PE (or BE) then all trims are disabled and the PCM goes into open loop.
In your case I would do a permanent install because you have a boosted application where AFR is even more important to keep an eye on. Widebands go for about $150 normally... Hardly enough to keep making excuses and trying workarounds, because in any case there just isn't one. Not a safe one at least.
How the fuck. Did you make this so easy to understand wow thank you boss this was much appreciated !!!!!
I am an Army senior NCO, so at this point teaching things Barney style is a hard earned skill.
@@ChopperDoc181 LOL much respect man. Watching your video on Gen 3 boost tuning was very Intresting as well really helped me get my foxbody going !
Would you recommend turning the LTFT And STFT back on after or is that something you would still leave off?
It’s really up to you. For a daily driver with no wide band installed, it is a good idea to put it back in closed loop, with LTFT’s on so the shorts can learn over time.
20:55 When can we log VE for WOT then? When the entire table seem right?
Work your way up to it. It will be the last area you tune on the table. Reason I put that in there was many of us want to test out our handy work after mods, but this can be dangerous if the fueling is not correct. Once fueling looks good in areas leading to WOT, and the slope on the table looks reasonable, as in realistic, then tune the WOT area.
@@ChopperDoc181 Ok so for example, everything between 0 and 4000rpm then when it's good, above 4000?
I followed your guide to adding the wideband to the scanner, and as soon as I start scanning that channel disappears. I've gone back and added the channel three times and it still disappears. Any clue why it would do that?
Have you tried repolling the supported parameters? Beyond that I would check to make sure the wiring is good, grounds are good, that kind of thing. If none of that fixes the issue I would drop a help ticket with hp tuners support. They’re pretty good about getting back with you. I’ve heard of other problems like this with other channels. Try the repoll first.
@@ChopperDoc181 Pretty sure repolling helped, I made a mistake on my part also. I used the input from the MVPI Pro instead of the input from the MPVI2 pro link. Working great now! Thanks!
how come, im only seeing two bars under engine dia? general and dtcs
Set the editor to “advanced view”, that should get you going.
Thank you.
Can you tell me the first step to do with hp tuner 2? Fresh rebuild 2000 5.3 upgrades headers cold air wit stock MAF 598/602 Howard cam flex fuel injectors 2003 ecu 0411 off a flex fuel suburban turbo 400 trans. Ecu was tuned to delete vats egr etc ecu was supposedly tuned with specs sent but I won’t to do a fresh start tune. It’s In a 1984 c10. 2 front 02 sensors Do I really need the wideband for a street truck no drag racing just playing around a little once in a while ?
Are you talking about the MPVI2? As far as the software is concerned, there isn't any difference. I am still using the original MPVI 1 so physical setup is probably a bit different. As far as "first" step goes, this is a great guide to start with, because most are going to tune the VE first. Even to do idle tuning, you have to understand how to tune the VE table(s). MAF just doesn't work well enough for large cams and heavily modded setups down low to be a practical place to start for everyone out there and every setup. Though in some cases, it can work just fine, doesn't mean it will for everyone.
VE on the other hand will ALWAYS work, no matter how crazy your mod list is. You can get it to play nice for you because you are telling it what to do for fueling, and you are the "sensor" basically as you modify the numbers in the table for the calibration. You can add in as much fuel as you want, or take away as much fuel as you want at a certain point in the RPM/MAP range. Normally we use a wide band to get accurate errors at anything above idle. At idle however, whatever it likes is what you give it. Large cams actually don't need a ton of fuel, so reducing it in the idle areas will help for surging if that's an issue.
Conversely, MAF actually measures the airflow, and about a hundred things can make this a bad route for various reasons, just to starting out getting things to run right, you don't need to complicate it.
Once you have everything running decent, then you can always go back and re-enable and tune the MAF. This is always done after the VE tune is complete though, and this is pretty much optional. Lots of guys just run Speed Density (VE) only and ditch the MAF completely. Always an option. MAF is more accurate though for daily drivers and will account for changes in climate through the year. VE isn't quite as good for this but it still works. However your numbers will drift a bit though the year. The change in most cases isn't big enough to worry about though.
ChopperDoc181 I really appreciate it I’ll start from here and see how it goes. I am talking about the HP Tuner 2
@ChopperDoc181 : '01 411 running an express van tune L31&4L80E. When I set up the tune as you have laid out I still get some fuel trims unless I command "CLOSED LOOP OFF" under special functions. What could be causing this?
Sometimes the long term trims have to be cleared when starting a scan. It’s usually a good idea to clear those as a habit. If that doesn’t work then recheck your closed loop settings.
@@ChopperDoc181 yes I have always done the clear but its mostly at idle inless I command ltft lean and closed loop off in special functions will idle around 15.1 but drop to what ve table is when commanded off. Before commanding off all trims in the channel list will show 0.00 so Im slightly confuzed lol
@@ChopperDoc181 would it work to set ltft idle cells disable to 0% tps instead of the 1.6% stock to keep it out of idle trimming? Another question was gonna ask if high speed write causes errors in the ve table is the pcm possibly bad or going bad?
thank you bro
So I'm having trouble understanding something. If I'm running a Speed Density only tune, how am I to safely tune WOT? I'd setting up the tune as presented in this video, are you supposed to slowly work your way up to redline, say 1k at time? Or are you supposed to set the WOT areas arbitrarily rich and then tune with the error histogram?
Michael Gedies Keep it on the rich side and work your way up slowly. Even when going WOT, use smooth throttle transitions and avoid any rapid changes. Another thing that helps massively to get into hard to reach areas are hills and gears. You can pretty much get into the WOT cells while in 2nd gear (auto) going up a hill. Remember to be SMOOTH with the throttle. That’s the name of the game here. Creep through the throttle and get as many hits in as many cells as you can. Then apply the errors as seen in the histogram. And as previously mentioned, to be safe, add in a guesstimate of “extra fuel” when starting, as to avoid lean conditions. A temporary lean condition will rarely cause problems. A prolonged one is begging for trouble. So it’s okay to be off with your initial guess. In the video I use 15%, but this may or may not be enough for your particular engine. It all gets retuned, so it’s basically as you said, an “arbitrary guess” to keep it on the richer side, then of course tuning with the real data thereafter. Another thing you can do is load the brakes in gear too. This can get you to some normally unreachable cells too if a hill is not available. Aka, gas and brake at the same time so you don’t end up on the blotter. Hope that helps.
@@ChopperDoc181 That helps alot. Alot of tutorials focus on dialing the VE and reenabling the MAF after for WOT and PE, but I wasn't sure about Speed Density only.
Do you have an email that I could send more detailed inquiries to? My email is gedies@gmail.com
Michael Gedies You don’t need the MAF to go WOT. I haven’t ran one in years on my own Camaro, no issues. Many people have straight up MAFless setups and run only SD, mostly for wild builds and boost. MAF doesn’t work for everyone, so the 4” one I bought years ago truly was a waste as it’s location makes it too unstable with my combination. And since SD is also the preferred boost airmass model, you can assume those boys run those engines to some serious stress levels and they hold together (most of the time lol)... It’s just an airmass model at the end of the day. MAF is the other. Stock uses both.
There are 4 possible combinations: MAF CL, MAF OL, SD CL, SD OL. There is a 5th we call a “hybrid”, aka, OL idle, but with CL MAF or SD thereafter, typically over 1200 RPM.
My email is prudance66@yahoo.com if you have more questions.
Will these steps work without a wideband?
They do, but you won’t get any data when in PE, so it’s not a good way to do it.
However, if going back to using STFT’s after the tune is done, I always tune the cruise areas using STFT’s since the computer doesn’t care about the WB anyway. It’s actually the last thing I do before finishing the tune, to get it close to what it will use from there on, aka, the stock narrowbands.
I don't have the movie pro. But I do have AEM Wideband. So how can I make this work
You can get the reading into the scanner through other means, like the AC Pressure sensor, EGR, or basically any other 5v input your PCM supports.
From there you just have to put the right transform in and you will be logging data, I have a video for exactly this, covering the scanner portion and the transform. Should be helpful to you.
I’m a total noob to tuning, is this the same procedure for tuning VE on a 1987-1995 TBI engine?
I’m not sure on that one. The procedures shown here are for 97 and up basically.
Question i was comparing how what you have labeled as a stock tune for a 1998 camaro with a 4l80e to a tune file i got from the repository labeled as stock tune for a 1998 camaro and the tables look alot different can you share that base tune file you have ? thanks
That file is in the 1998 folder, for my Camaro, but the actual file is from a 2002. I have an 0411 PCM installed with all the most current software, to include that tune. Sorry if that confused you a little. I think I covered a few of the differences in the 98 vs newer PCM's like the P01 (0411) in my introduction to HPT video. Your 98 file will have a primary and secondary VE table. The 0411 does not.
It is important that you update the secondary VE table as you tune the main, because when the MAF is failed this becomes the primary table UNLESS you are running an upgraded speed density OS, which is included in the software now. If you plan to go back to using the MAF, then do not upgrade the OS. However you will have to copy the values from the main table row by row as you tune it. That's what most do, since there is twice as much depth on the main table. RPM range is the same, so you can copy each row after tuning the main.
If you still want me to post the tunes I can put them up on LS1Tech under my guides thread if you are still curious.
@@ChopperDoc181 ok that makes sense now , I'm also using a 0411 pcm I guess what really looked different to me was the graph view of your VE table to start with compared to what I found in other "stock" tune files ,I look out for your posts In ls2 tech thanks
I have 2 ve table ?
I'm tuning an 05 trailblazer 4.2 that is a speed density system only, I dont have an afr gauge and not looking for a lot of power, do I still force open loop to use stft or do I need closed loop to make it log
You have to run closed loop if you are using a wide band. Other wise there is nothing monitoring your fueling at all. STFT's aren't ideal, but they are better than nothing.
Installing a wide band now, gotta learn the maths for running it through the ac presure now
@@elmauto3021 This should help...
ua-cam.com/video/aN7w7ytCd1E/v-deo.html
Will this work wit stage 3 cam 218/224 with btr ls6 560 valves spring with 7.400" 5/16" DIA Performance PUSHRODS with Brian Tooley Racing GM Delphi LS7 lifters n LS1 Rocker Arms With Trunion
Yes.
Truck want stay on
@chief1986 So is it a diesel? I’m not sure I’ve ever had that issue on a gas vehicle. I had a duramax with a bad ignition though, and I had to pull the fuel relay to kill it everywhere I went until I fixed it…. I’m not sure I understand your problem.
@@ChopperDoc181 gas
IS THE FILE LINKED SOMEWHERE IN HERE ?
What file are you looking for? Scaling?
afr err is logging, but when i apply those values to ve table its way off. any help?
Do you have a secondary VE table? If so this table becomes primary when MAF is failed.
I had the maf unplugged, iat is in there. I'm still a little confused on why when the iat gets hotter it goes lean.
Do i leave LTFT n STFT off for good or do i turn them back on
Up to you what to turn back on.
@ChopperDoc181 do u recommend leave it off