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'It's not realistic!' Why promotion/relegation won't work for MLS | Major League Soccer
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2020
- ESPN FC's Herculez Gomez, Alejandro Moreno and Sebastian Salazar react to Deandre Yedlin's interview with ESPN FC's Alexis Nunes regarding a promotion and relegation system in Major League Soccer. Moreno says the lack of a relegation system eliminates the fear of failing for struggling teams, but says such a system does not exist culturally in the American sports landscape. Gomez understands Yedlin's arguments and says a promotion/relegation system makes a league more competitive at all levels of an organization.
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The whole structure is bad. And the fact that owners buy-in and therefore expect to stay in the league, maybe this is where the conversation should start.
GnomeDeGuerre the problem is, back in 1995 there were over 24 markets in the US that were identified for potential MLS teams. The buy-in was $5 million dollars. Less than 10 owners (investor
/operators) bought in. The existing lower leagues were a mess with teams folding constantly. How do you set up a system that has pro/rel in that environment for what was essentially a niche sport in 1996?
The problem is they already spent hundreds of millions buying in and nobody with that kind of money has any desire or incentive to buy them back out.
Michael T. Mathews where’s the competition?
Paco Ramirez I think what he means is that before they admit new clubs, they need to make it clear that your franchise could be relegated...and if that makes them not want to peruse an MLS team after that...so be it. We already have enough teams anyway. If I was trying to bring a new team in Major League Soccer and the commissioner made it clear to me that my team could be relegated down to the USL once we get started, I would be all for it because I believe the MLS will benefit having promotion and relegation.
The problem is, the lower division have been historically unstable. Teams come and go (came and went) constantly.
Someone tell ale to back up from the camera. Feel like it's like your dad calling you on FaceTime when your in trouble and need to come home! 😔😂
alejandro moreno is so ugly
That is very funny.
@@darkkiwi6312 chill😂
*you're in trouble
Lol
Why Yedlin looking like he in the Grove Street gang
Really? He looked like he just got back from walking his yorkie down Santa Monica Beach😄 He's a pedestrian
Hes kinda dumb sounding too
someone tell Alejandro he is way too close to the camera i can see his pores.
alejandro moreno is so ugly
alejandro moreno is so ugly
Was about to type the same thing. I knew I wasn’t the only one annoyed with it.
Social distance
In the MLS there isn't a single club, only businesses
I will never understand the Euro obsession with clubs.
When Is dinner it’s part of their culture, our culture in the US is $
@@whenisdinner2137 In the US sports are more of events than really sports. Clubs are better than businesses because they're what real sports looks like.
@Joe Public Yes it is, because they are officially owned by it's members, not an investor or a company. Also I believe the word you're looking for is business, not buisness
@Joe Public Bayern's haven't bought the league all their starting players were bought for around 100 million that's less than everton. The difference is scouts places in america are likely to only scout in rich places or in the USA but Bayern's scouts looks for quality and buy players for cheap
Our sports culture is the reason why we don't have a relegation system. The only things we have here in the US is tanking, Bob McNair, James Dolan, Bud Adams, Robert Kraft, and pretty much every owner of every team. And the sports fans here are either passionate die hards or a bunch of entitled Karens who threaten to cheer for a front running team if things don't go well for their original team. I hate to say this, but I think our sporting landscape is plastic.
America is plastic
Sports are plastic. I love sports, but it's not real life. And who cares quite frankly how other people view it or what teams they root for. Why would I care if you are a front runner or a die hard who sticks to their team. Makes no difference what so ever to me
Speak for yourself. That dynamic changes across generations.
See this is where your culture is wrong and where the European culture will be better for your football (soccer) league. Relegation and promotion generates passion. Having a smaller team beat a big team will drive support in your country.
@@PoorStretch Well, good for you I guess, but to me it just sound like someone who has never had the feeling a of loving a club, lecturing others about that feeling.
The truth is that the MLS will hit a hard ceiling once it reaches 32 teams without promotion/relegation. Then the MLS owners will change their minds sooner or later.
I think the plan is to make the MLS into the NFL or NBA.
It's the American Sports model. Deal with it. No team gets promoted or relegated in the NBA or NFL.
Right now the quality can barely keep up with the growing quantity. Once they hit max teams (probably 32), the quality will start to increase. This is especially true as each team has a more established history and youth program. We're decades away from the MLS hitting any kind of ceiling
@@runrafarunthebestintheworld the problem is applying an American sports model to a non-American created sport. MLS needs to look around and get on board with what works. I live here and have never been able to take to MLS, I prefer other leagues, they're just more interesting and more competitive.
@@ineverexisted26 and chance are you follow a super club. Meh
Sebi is annoying. Let ppl talk without trying to have a gotcha moment.
Ale shut him down real quick
Sebi the worse
Yes, mls needs relegation. Their are more than enough teams in the USL to cycle through.
Being sad you lose is what all fanbases deal with with or without league structure.
The problem isn't the quantity of teams in the USL, instead its a matter of quality. Would you reasonable expect FC Tulsa, Birmingham Legion FC and Charlotte Independence to fill the shoes if Atlanta, LAFC and Seattle went down? America is doing things backwards with its infrastructure (building the top of the pyramid first) so the only logical place to start is by making USL more popular.
1Lost Muffin ‼️
@@ATLMike94 Nah, that's a sure way to never have a really good national team.
But they already have no fans, relegation just scares off whatever new fans you gain, football is still a new sport in America and we don’t have the built in massive fan bases and 100 years of history to support a team that gets relegated
@@kurtwagner350 Not really, risk and reward, a die hard attitude of the teams is want most fans love. That's where the passion comes from.
Second problem for there not being any passion is simply because US teams sucks, and most people know that and want none of it. Have a more competitive league will definitively get more people hooked.
Not some boring sunday league without any risk where nobody really cares what happens.
If they want to upgrade MLS's competition to match euro football, they have to do relegation. Otherwise it's just a professional sunday league sports.
Pro-rel wont just magically make the league better. For MLS to get better, soccer has to become bigger at the grassroots level and become part of the national identity. Pro/Rel would hurt that at the moment. If soccer was firmly in the top 3 of US sports then the conversation could be had but right now, it's not ready.
No the league just need stars, America is the biggest sports market in the world, and soccer supposed to be the biggest sport, soccer has yet to really transcend the American Audience
@@StaySqueezy12 that's how you get grassroots level participation. In the UK, amateur teams enter the FA cup, with the possibility of playing premier league teams
MLS is the worst league with the biggest exposure!
It isn't the worst in the world, but it has the biggest contrast when you take into account the attention and the exposure it recieves! Basically, leagues with MLS type skill, are usually much obscure and not talked about it! And leagues with MLS type exposure are usually much greater in skill, like the French League, the German League, etc...
@@StaySqueezy12 well for one it would make the league much more competitive and it force the teams who have been the bottom of the barrel for years to either get good or get relegated. Secondly, it allows younger players coming up to have more options in terms of playing for a team being that the teams in the 2nd division will be looking for good players at a cheaper price ie kids coming out of college. Add on that those teams that are in the lower division will actually have some fight in them n want to get promoted cause they know the additional money they would get from playing in the MLS can be used to make themselves better. It's a system that literally works perfectly fine in every other country in the world, the US needs to realize if they want the MLS to grow do it the same way all the other countries in the world have grown their leagues. The system the US has now rewards teams for being mediocre
I think I get what was said at the end. Maybe USSF should experiment pro/rel in lower divisions like USL first, especially with MLS expanding. The money spent on a top tier team would be too much for owners to suddenly lose just because their team wasn't good enough to compete in the first year or two of existence. If pro/rel ever happens, I would imagine it would have to be a few years after the next expansion (or whenever the final one is).
USL is planning on having Pro/Rel among its divisions in the future once they get all divisions in order.
I thought they were already doing that? I believe it would be the second year of it.
@@andrewsherman1797 Nope
@@andrewsherman1797 it's only been rumored. I'm sure it won't be for another couple of years though as they are still expanding. Here in Buffalo, we're supposed to get a team in 2023
But if you have pro/rel then no drafts then the best team can sign those top 10 players for themselves.
People complaining about US not having pro/rel system have no real knowledge about Geography. USA is a massive country with an area of *9 million sq. km* which is significantly larger than England (130 thousand sq.km), Germany (357 thousand sq.km), Spain (500 thousand sq.km), France (543 thousand sq.km), Italy (301 thousand sq.km), and many other european nations *combined* .
Let's say USA does have a pro/rel system and teams from small local clubs of _Oregon, North Dakota, Arizona,Texas, kansas, Florida, Wisconsin, Maine, West Virginia_ end up on the 3rd division.. (for Europeans perspective, it is like having teams from small towns of _Ireland, Denmark, Latvia, Portugal, Serbia, Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Russia, Kazhakhstan,_ all in a 3rd division battling for pro/rel) Imagine the travel cost and travel exhaustion the team have to undergo every week, and for what..? to get promoted or demoted to a new tier which may not be as prestigious as the first tier.
There are a lot of soccer fans in America that watch European or South American leagues. They understand promotion/relegation formats. MLS is losing those fans or missing those fans. There is no intrigue in the regular season as it is. Those teams who suck don't care or don't need to care because they know they are guaranteed a place in the league no matter what. The reason why the EPL is so interesting and competitive is because every final position matter, either for staying in the league or earning more money from the pot based on league positioning.
Soccer is not an American sport. It is a global sport and you can't treat it like an American sport. Why expend to 30 teams when you don't have promotion/relegation format? NBA is talking about changing their format to make their regular season more interesting.
MLS has enough teams for 2 divisions now. Present financial rewards to teams for higher league positions and promotions. Likewise, financial penalties for relegation and lower league position.
But MLS doesnt care about those fans. They are a small minority. They want the Average Joe's! The normies!!! Those who watch sports to either cheer for their hometown team or to consume. Because they will outspend the Ultras!!
Exactly. Could not have said this any better.
@@Truman5555 You are correct. MLS just wants to create a good entertainment product. Each team just needs some up and coming American players and a few foreign players who played in Europe before and people will be interested. This is particularly true if the former European players used to play for their national teams. People from immigrant families will certainly come out and see their former national team players.
@@addosolar537 Without a good entertainment product, you can kiss everything else goodbye...
People watch European and South American soccer because it has better quality and, in the case of South American leagues, because it's something different due to the language differences. They don't watch it because it has pro/rel.
"Soccer is not an American sport. It is a global sport and you can't treat it like an American sport. "
Soccer is a game with certain rules. What soccer isn't is the league structure it finds itself in. To say that it can't be treated like "an American sport" is projecting your own belief on what soccer actually is.
"NBA is talking about changing their format to make their regular season more interesting."
Yes, because it's a long season where 82 games are played in the regular seasons - and not because it lack pro/rel.
When the league is charging $200 million+ for a franchise it'll never happen
Exactly, if relegation and promotion is introduced buying a smaller club and building it up through the leagues would be much more efficient.
@@camamis1552 Not really. In the European structure that is extremely hard to do. Cuz the club can only spent the amount of money they earn, a cheap club without decent sponsors and a strong fanbase wont earn enough money to buy good players.
Jon Blund I’m not talking about Europe I’m talking about the MLS completely different rules
@@camamis1552 eeh? This whole video is not about that. It is about getting European rules in to the American system to up their quality on the world stage.
Jon Blund ehh? I’m saying the ffp rules in Europe not be applied in the US. If they’re going to adopt a European system of relegation and promotion, it would be very easy to build a franchise up from the bottom, as they won’t have the same ffp rules.
No promotion + no relegation = no excitement
Gotta tell you, kicking out one bad team and replacing it with another bad team every year isn't exciting either...
Like european football is exciting
They're basically saying that the football (soccer) comes last. The league cares more about the owners and and "culture", which is just not taking it seriously, instead of caring about the quality of the games and the level of football that is being played. Nobody is going to be taking this league seriously any time soon.
Not what they said at all. In order for the quality of the game to improve its local popularity and the leagues popularity must improve the sports culture in the US is a very important factor to consider in regards to growing the game in the US. You can't just force a sport to work in the same league format and have the same sports culture everywhere. Closed leagues don't work in Europe, Open Leagues don't work in the US.
@@kevinmoynihan5118 One part of improving that sports culture would be to relegate badly performing teams. As it stands there's no incentive to even try for the bottom half when the end of the season is getting near. That said, MLS is not something that interests me so in the end I don't really care how you do it over in the US, you're relatively small in the football world.
As a football fan from the UK I do not want MLS to adopt pro/rel. The way MLS does things currently is a huge part of the reason I love it. Here in the English league we have a few teams who win year after year. When they win they get more money, so they buy the best players, and win the league again. As the years go on that gap between rich and poor clubs just gets wider and wider, and makes it more and more difficult for other teams to compete. In fact the only way they can compete is when they get a massive amount of investment, as is the case with Chelsea and Man City. Although MLS feels more corporate, it is actually a fairer system, and the balance between teams creates a much more exciting and unpredictable competition. BTW locally in the Scottish league we have two teams that win it, much like in Spain, maybe that is now one team as it is in Germany. Unless you happen to be a fan of that one team it's pretty boring. And of course we have a lot of 'gloryhunters' who support the winning team, meaning they make even more money from merchandise sales, ticket sales etc, so they can buy the best players, rinse, repeat. Do not adopt pro/rel! For those who think it's so important there are a hundred other leagues with pro rel they can watch, let me have this one league that isn't a two or three horse race.
PS another factor which make pro/rel unrealistic, the size of the US and Canada. Imagine Puerto Rico FC draws Hawaii FC or Anchorage FC in division 3, or San Diego Parttimers draw Nova Scotia Amateurs, the travel would be ridiculous. For that reason you could only really have pro rel in the top two leagues anyway, beyond that you need regional divisions.
As a compromise though how about the MLS is expanded to 32 teams, and divided into four conferences of eight. Western, Central West, Central East, and Eastern. The four winners of those conferences go into a 'superleague' at the end of the season to decide the MLS winner. Regular season they play each team twice, home and away, scheduled so that the northern teams can play in the south in the colder months, then play in the north in the hottest months. When the superleague is played other teams can match up against teams they have not played recently, or to have games like the cascadia cup etc. Also this time could coincide with a warm up for the CCL.
Can ESPN please sack Seb Salazar. He is completely unprofessional and rude, never lets the other pundits answer questions.
haha he gets roasted every time. Ale was making an important point and he interrupts him...
It was unprofessional of Ale to throw a fit over an interjection
Let's take Herculez Gomez off too
Yes, he is unprofessional at times, but he is entertaining and passionate unlike anchors/reporters like Adrian Healy
I think that's the point.
It worked in Japan with a 3-tier pyramid. The problem with the MLS is having East/West conferences and a farm league in the USLC with way more teams that includes MLS affiliates. Can you imagine Vancouver or Cincinnati not being on ESPN in favor of a club in Tempe, Arizona with a 6200-seat field or RSL's Team-B?
america has tones of football or soccor should i say for americans leagues mostly univeristy level leagues its odd
People complaining about the MLS not having pro/rel or that it’s “too focused on money” need to realize the league literally almost went bankrupt in the mid 2000s and that the current system, with all its flaws and kinks, is the only way to ensure financial solvency of the league.
A lot of these people don't even have a clue...
Facts!!
MLS has Promotion, it is qualifying spots to ConcaChampions. That part of meritocracy they are ok with.
There should be a relegation in mls
Robert Dunne the US is too big to do pro/rel distances between teams compare to distances between countries in Europe.
@@villaa456 it's better than having the same teams who finished bottom of East and West conference
They say it won't work because nobody wants to be hold accountable for their poor productivity. Everyone wants "Winner Money" without winning.
You must have had the video on mute.
@@villaa456 erm well China ,India and Russia manage it
Do this: split the mls into two divisions. 13 teams in division A and 13 teams in division B. You play each team in your division twice and each team in the other division once = 37 games. 3 points, 1 point, 0 point system. No more playoffs. Most points in division A wins the title. Last three teams in division A go down to B and top three teams in B go up to A. The key is that you have to be in Division A to challenge for the title. And make the MLS Cup a separate tournament competition. Maybe include the top teams from the 2 USL leagues and the NPSL. This setup would definitely appeal more to real soccer fans and they would become more interested than they have been. After all there are 100 times more soccer fans in the USA than there was 20 years ago. Problem is they're more interested in the European leagues right now but with this system that could change.
It would make it more competitive for the smaller teams, there would be more to play for
Have u watched the video at all or listened to what alejandro said
@@jonnstewart2023 his point is if that wasent the case then they should do promotion and relegation its more of feel moment when you watch your team play and have your team fighting for something every game
@@marcusgirling Pro/rel forces an unnatural national spotlight on the teams doing worst (which nobody cares about), when the only teams and players that deserve such attention are the ones at the top.
Players and teams *always* have something to fight for if they call themselves professional athletes... never understood that silly "nothing to play for " argument.
But the same teams would win the league every year and it would be boring
As a European living in America, I can see both sides from a cultural standpoint, and its a hard challenge, but still, MLS needs it. I think with all the money the MLS gains, surely they could work with the USL to create a two league structure.
Fans here are crybabies who want EVERY team to have the same quality, payscale and upward trajectory. Absolutely we should have relegation but our spoiled rich owners and snowflake fans would rather be dead than face the music like relegated squads in Europe. American sports fans are not passionate.
Why is it necessary? All the other leagues in america don’t have it
promotion/relegation is not just having a two league structure. it's about having every division for amatures and up, that could potentially go far into league. you may have 8 divisions, 12 or 4. it's all about how each unique league is made up until you reach the major league.
Relegation isn't just about competition for the teams. If teams in any city can aspire to be in MLS it's going to create development leagues all over the country which will benefit the national team so much. If MLS and the national team are supposedly on the same page how does this not happen
Most of you don't realize more the half of the clubs in the USL are developmental teams for the MLS clubs. Just like in baseball and hockey. The players are contracted to the MLS clubs. The only way pro/rel would work is if all the USL clubs were independent. That is not possible.
I know that most people don’t view sports that deeply but to be honest NO RULE/structural change will actually improve the way the MLS is seen outside of spending very very serious resources on URBAN/BLACK AND BROWN youth athletic talent in the United States. Period. Every successful league in the world spends MAJOR resources recruiting talent from urban areas, to be honest the US Federation/MLS probably wants to keep the perception of the sport as a mostly white sport in America while the other sports here continue to dominate. It’s obvious just by looking at the other sports and the olympics that the athletic talent required to play ANY sport is in the United States, it just happens to be held by kids that are all trying to make it to the NFL/MLB because there is a lot of effort to develop talent in black and brown communities.
THIS!!!!!! Thats why hockey is 4th! They are only now starting to invest in the urban areas! US Soccer needs investment first!! That's why pro/rel is such an afterthought! You can't do that until the foundation is sound!!!
The real problem with pro/rel is that it becomes impossible to have 30+ teams at the top tier. Relegation isn't fair unless the schedule is double round robin and a totally balanced schedule, and that's precisely why all these other leagues top out at close to 20 teams. MLS needs way more than that in order to engage a truly national fan base- in two countries, by the way- and I think they'd be well served in going to 36 teams with 4 regional divisions. This would be completely impossible with pro/rel.
Promotion /relegation would be actually awsome in all sports i think, it makes it more competative and exciting, if we want the usmnt to ever become top 10 world wide, our domestic league most go to relagation/promotions, otherwise we will be a retirement league for ever, and our best players will always have to go over seas to develop and grow , rather than doing it at home soil.
Kicking out one bad team and replacing it with another bad team every year isn't going to achieve that...
Instead, how about we actually have a professional standard of development for all teams?
That's actually what's needed here... pro/rel for the US market is extremely overrated.
You have backed up your statements with nothing but emotional thinking.
What people ignore is that American sports are far more competitive than European leagues.
promotion relegation is not only downwards. The top 3 or 5 teams of the 1st league from each country are selected for a continental cup the following year.
Promotion relegation has nothing to do with the MLS becoming a top 10 league worldwide, or being a retirement league, or our best players going overseas instead of home soil. Relegation literally wouldn’t solve any of that.
Promotion/Relegation actually destroys competive balance. Every European league has the same 2-3 teams competing for a championship, 5-6 trying to stay above relegation, and the rest in a perpetual middle ground.
Yeah but with no relegation you can be the worst team and still be in the top league next year no real fear of being bad
@@kylecook4206 ...but who cares about bad teams outside of their supporters? The possibility of being religated isn't really going to entice me to watch the bad teams. I may watch a decision game at the end of the season (assuming my team or any other good games are on) but that's about it.
You clearly didn't see Leicester winning the premier league a few years ago.
@@jhayemdoubleyou I don't really get your point
@@HansFoote Fair point, but the odds of that were like 100-1. This might be just personal preference, but I prefer the relative balance of a non relegation league.
no pro reg in Liga mx for 5 years now either
shawnsmith that’s mostly due to the corruption of owners. Pro/Rel has been a farce for some time. When teams were relegated they would simply buy the franchise that got promoted and simply changed the name back to their original team that got relegated. They paya. Fine and move on. This is corruption from its owners
@@AlfonsoPoncho7 Exactly
Alfonso Espino i learned that as well, but from watching Cuervos on Netflix!
Atletico san luis was recently promoted tho, with tibrones de Veracruz being relegated
@@elchirstiano Actually Veracruz was "erased", which means they don't exist anymore, and even the season before that happen, they paid to stay an extra season
8:36 It’s going to be the inaugural second division? We already have a second division, it’s called the USL.
But it’s not linked to your top division. It’s only your second division because it has the second most money. Look at the second div in England. It’s the richest 2nd division of any sport, probably richer than a lot of first divisions, this is what promotion can give to American soccer
Oh? Does USL have the same TV contracts? The same gate revenues? I'm sure the owners would love for their team to be relegated into a position where it's impossible to make money.
It's a non-starter. People forget that without the TV contracts most of these teams fold, and networks aren't lining up to give second division leagues hundreds of millions of dollars to broadcast their games. MLS may one day have promotion within divisions in their own league, under their own system. But it's never going to be a national pyramid like you have in Europe. It's just not practical.
@@Steve-eq8iz The national pyramid is everywhere and works everywhere (Europe, Central and South America, Asia, Africa), except for the US, Canada and Australia...
Relegation and promotion is great because the interest is not just at the top half of the league but the bottom half as teams battle to not drop from the league. I recognize it won't be a thing in the MLS until the second tier league gets deeper and better so supporters of these teams can look forward to going up whilst the team relegated the fans try to get their team to regain their top flight place. Maybe in time, i'd imagine at least a decade or two minimum prom/rel. can be brought in slowly and Moreno saying its not part of the US sports landscape, thats not an argument, once they get it, and soccer truly has a league based on merit rather than like the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL teams monopoly were your rewarded for your mediocrity with better picks for the following season so if your doing badly the incentive is to do worse and finish bottom rather than fight and play the best you can so as to save your career and side in the better league.
The average USL team has no players good enough for MLS so how does anyone think replacing a team with nearly 100% MLS level talent with a team with nearly 0% talent of that level will make the league more competitive? Not to mention the finances. The reason MLS is only 25 years old but has so many beautiful new stadiums and new owners investing and even establishing a whole new league (MLS Next) dedicated exclusively at developing young talent. The financial security of the closed system along with some genius moves by MLS are why the owners want to invest the way they do and why this sport has grown so fast here.
Soccer wasnt part of the sporting landscape and culture 25 years ago and now it is...........So Promotion and Relegation is not part of the sporting landscape now doesn’t mean it can be later.......
Ale is right, it's not realistic. From a financial standpoint, why would any owner vote to potentially devalue their investment? MLS owners are not soccer fans who are looking out for the good of the sport, they're businessmen looking out for the good of their money.
@@pogfee Because they could make a lot more money with promotion/relegation. Interest and viewership in the MLS would increase dramatically.
@@BabsW Money that would be split more ways (obviously there'd be a lot more teams). And if you drop down to a lower level you'd be screwed financially. Not sure that's worth the risk. MLS is growing at a pretty steady rate right now, it's a sound investment as things currently stand.
BabsW MLS has grown tremendously in 25 years (thanks to ex-superstar signings), faster than any other league has grown, it’s insane. They’ll be fine without a promotion/relegation and keep growing. Like Ale said, until the entire ownership system changes, there will never be a pro/rel system.
Sam Forbes college football and basketball is a minor league sport but it doesn’t stop them getting bigger TV contracts than MLS and massive Crowds some they get upto 100k people in stadiums to watch a bunch of underage teenagers play non professional ball 🏈 🏀
As a US soccer fan I want pro/rel. It is probably 15-20 years away if it comes. MLS will need to finish expanding and eventually want more teams or better ones. The lower leagues will need to get better. Right now they don’t have the infrastructure, money, ownership, or players for the lower leagues to be viable in pro/rel. Also the best teams in USL end up getting expanded into MLS so it further hurts the USL. They lose a decent team with a good following and don’t even get a team in return.
Alejandro is one of the few media members I've heard over the years really understand the difference between clubs and franchises. US franchise owners are business partners. The owners are not interested in a structure where their investment is dramatically devalued due to a bad season. International clubs are separate entites that compete under a domestic tiered pyramid structure. There is revenue sharing within the top divisions with regards to television, but in many cases it does not resemble who it is done in the US (How Barca and Real Madrid take a very disproprtionate amount of Spanish TV money is one example).
To say owners aren’t interested in an investment that devalues ad a blanket statement isn’t strictly true, the fact people all over the world invest in teams where relegation exists shows that.
The fact is MLS is ring fenced, that may be more preferable now for owners but for long term growth relegation will undoubtedly benefit the league which in turn will raise the level and revenue potential of MLS.
Jim 83 Relegated clubs are not valued like Premiere League clubs. MLS franchises are bought and sold like they are in the MLS. Apples to Burritos.
Unfortunately the business and money aspect is more important than elevating the level of the league. The same goes with the Liga MX where they just got rid of relegation. People do not want to lose their money. At the end of the day this is more of a business than a sport now.
Relegation wont work in the mls with the current system, however if you were to wipe the slate clean and build a proper tiered u.s. soccer structure then yes it can work, it works in almost every other (better) leagues on earth... you cant force it to fit the mls’ current structure no but you could retool that structure... the problem is that will never happen because the owners care more about money than they do having the mls be taken seriously, you’ll never concince a bunch of rich dudes to willingly adopt a sustem where they will be punished financially if they lose... they are far more comfortable sitting in a league of mediocrity. In terms of quality, players who go through a relegation/promotion battle develop a thick skin, they develop a mentality that breeds competitiveness, that mentality is (aside from the technical skills) what mls players lack, if they finish last... oh well lets try again next season, none of them have ever had to fight and scrape and claw themselves out of relegation and therefore they are weaker mentally than basically every player in europe/ other leagues with that system
*however if you were to wipe the slate clean and build a proper tiered u.s. soccer structure then yes it can work, it works in almost every other (better) leagues on earth*
Except that those other countries have soccer at or near the top in popularity... soccer doesn't have to compete with several other bigger, more popular team sports locally for attention from fans.
*you cant force it to fit the mls’ current structure no but you could retool that structure... the problem is that will never happen because the owners care more about money than they do having the mls be taken seriously*
As long as fans show up to the games (and they have been doing so in increasing numbers over the years), then they are being taken seriously enough...
*you’ll never concince a bunch of rich dudes to willingly adopt a sustem where they will be punished financially if they lose*
Because just the idea of that makes absolutely no sense... why on Earth should they be financially punished for how the players did on the field??
*they are far more comfortable sitting in a league of mediocrity.*
Compared to what? The Premier League?
You could add about 95% of the leagues in the world to that same category if that's the case!
*In terms of quality, players who go through a relegation/promotion battle develop a thick skin, they develop a mentality that breeds competitiveness, that mentality is (aside from the technical skills) what mls players lack*
What MLS players actually lack is knowledge of the professional game... pro/rel isn't going to fix this, just create more technically erratic games at the bottom, a novelty that would wear off quick.
*oh well lets try again next season*
The team officials might say that, but the players and coaches cannot... their place is never fully guaranteed.
*one of them have ever had to fight and scrape and claw themselves out of relegation and therefore they are weaker mentally than basically every player in europe/ other leagues with that system*
It's not necessary to have pro/rel to achieve this kind of pressure on a player... they already have it for th emost part because they know they could lose their spot on the team for not performing well.
I think there should be some sort of repercussions for finishing last in your division. If not relegation maybe something like if designated players can have an option to walk or maybe the playoff champions can poach any player from either of the two last place teams in each division. Teams should not be comfortable finishing last.
I’m glad that De Rossi went 2 retire at Boca Juniors
Rifath Mannan, but how many superstars have come from Boca Juniors? How many superstars have come from MLS?
@@josegomez-pz8od how many workd class players have come out of Boca jrs and how many have come out of MLS??
@@dagosegovia843 Carlos Tevez, Juan Roman Riquelme. Just to mention 2.
@@dagosegovia843 no one yet.
@@josegomez-pz8od diego maradona even he was not formed there but his a boca legend
@2:36 this is a new league. The premier league is a older league. The cultural thing is mute. Culturally the average US citizen loves competition. We love the underdog and also the Dynastic championship teams. This will add a level of excitement to the league and the bottom half of the table will not be inclined to accept their position in the table mid way through the year. I liken this discussion to the one being had in the NBA and NFL with lottery picks
No, sports culture absolutely matters. What people forget is that the reason leagues exist as they do in the rest of the world is Cups are the older competition. Which is why Federations scream when teams don't take them seriously. The cups gave Federations history & legitimacy.
MLS gets legitimacy through membership fees and FIFA recognition. You cannot waive that away with pro/rel. And a "closed" pro/rel system like Seth suggests has all the disadvantages of both a closed league *and* an open league.
Competition? Once the team can't make it to the playoffs in American sports they try to be the worst team so they can get the number 1 draft pick ..I find American sports pretty boring when it comes to the competition ..
@@dieselboy77 That's the NBA, NFL. Soccer is a world wide sport with unlimited supply. In MLS they don't depend in the draft, they depend on scouting other leagues for players.
The premier league is only 1 year older than MLS. I think you’re referring to the Football League, which still exists, but was the precursor to what the Premier League would become
@@BryanRichardsonNC Premier League was founded in 1992 ..Major League Soccer was officially formed in February 1995 as a limited liability company. Yes, and Football league was formed in 1888. The competition was founded as the FA Premier League following the decision of clubs in the Football League First Division to break away from the Football League and take advantage of a lucrative television rights deal. But nothing really changed when it comes to the English football competition and rules.
The problem with American sports is the owners can move the team as they please so America doesn't really have teams that are as old and important to cities as in Europe. I find American sport leagues pretty boring because there is no real competition ..when the team can't make it to the playoff they purposely play bad so they can have the number 1 draft pick
Promotion and relegation is STUPID for MLS right now because of two big reasons: 1. the USA and Canada are too big geographically and 2. soccer is not popular enough versus the competition in the US yet for relegated teams to economically survive and grow..
Right now, there are 29 MLS teams and only 2 cities, LA and NY, have more than one team. By contrast, the English Premier League has only 20 teams and that seems reasonable to cover England. London alone has 7 Premier League teams.
But unlike MLS, Premier League teams don't have to compete with the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL for fans. New York City alone has 2 teams in each of those leagues to compete with its 2 MLS squads. That's a a lot of competition for fans. To truly cover the USA and Canada, you need a LOT of teams.
If you have pro/rel with 3 teams and the season ended today, August 25, 2023, Miami, Toronto, and Colorado (Denver) would be relegated. If you take the top 3 USL Championship teams and promote them, then Pittsburgh, Sacramento, and San Antonio would be in the MLS. Sounds cool, right?
But are you seriously expecting Colorado fans to be excited that they would now be playing against the Birmingham Legion? Will Pittsburgh host LAFC at Highmark Stadium which holds only 5,000 people? Would Messi have even agreed to come to Miami? What if NY Red Bulls got relegated? Would their fans keep supporting their 2nd tier battles or just watch the Yankees instead?
And who's gonna pay for everything?
Right now, soccer needs to become more economically huge before they start having multiple leagues to enable pro/rel. And American sporting culture doesn't need it. They will support a last place team if it's their last place team. But they won't support a team that changes their opponents occasionally any more than they would support the Boston Red Sox playing the Long Island Ducks.
Reasons why the MLS will not get a relegation (unless something big happens in the future):
-Franchise Fee $200 million
- Most USL teams can only seat 10,000-7000 people so let’s say a team like Phoenix Rising gets promoted how are they going to compete with all MLS teams that Seat 25,000 people and more and not to mention they have better money to afford players I doubt Phoenix Rising has millions of dollars to attract someone from Europe or Mexico. This is why it isn’t fair to the Minor Leagues
- For the love of god people please stop comparing American sports to European sports. American sports will always work on 30-32 league system and we are more of a bragging rights systems (representing our cities and states) as supposed to giving others a chance. You want minor leagues watch college football, soccer, baseball, and basketball and support those teams.
-it’s all about money people like I said USL teams don’t have $200-250 million laying around so please give it a rest.
Pro and rel is kinda overrated. I get it’s the dream of having your local club play in top flight. But cmon that rarely happens. Leicester is probably the only successful story in recent times. You can say bourtmouth as well but they just got relegated.
People say you should punish those who finish last and don’t make playoffs by having relegation, sure. But atleast in the mls they can stay in the premier league and try again. Unlike in Europe where they lose some tv rights and have to try even harder to make it back. And eventually becoming a yo-yo club
I’m not against having pro and rel but all I’m saying it’s sorta overhyped
It's *very* overhyped in the sense that pro/rel proponents seriously think such a system creates instant excitement and makes the fans seriously care about their teams just because they are doing poorly one year and might get relegated...
If fans choose to support an MLS team and pay tickets to watch top league soccer, why should those fans be punished for their team finishing last and getting demoted?
The only ones responsible for a last-place finish would be the players and coaches... *not* the fans.
So it logically stands to reason the fans shouldn't have to slog through a year of inferior-quality soccer against second-rate opponents for what the *players* on the field did.
Another question I have for pro/rel advocates (which they have never given me a good, justified answer for) is this: On what grounds would a US second-division team actually *deserve* to be brought up and compete against MLS teams?
The second-division (minor-league) in the US is there for a reason... those teams are by *definition* not good enough for the major leagues.
Therefore, they have no right whatsoever to even deserve a place in MLS just because they finished first one year in the USL....
A lightweight professional boxer doesn't magically become a heavyweight contender just because he won the lightweight championship... the same logic applies here.
@@davepazzaglia8294 exactly I don’t see the purpose of it. But I do agree that priro can be different here because of the fact of our salary caps. Such as the Premier league and La Liga as an example they have a monopolize market and are mostly free spending which is why the idea of relegation and promotion isn’t as important since it’s always Barcelona or Manchester city winning every year. But if it was implemented in the MLS once it reaches about 36 teams, The limitations of the salary caps can create almost an equal like competition even if some teams are obviously better than others it’s at least a sum chance to be seen for a small team to win
Pro/ reg does create more competition as well as keeping the ownership accountable .
The playoffs take care of that issue...
@@davepazz580 to an extent , owners know they get a check whether they make it or not . Also then”super draft” is a joke . Creating academies have worked for better than college prospects on the world stage
Academies are being developed now and are proving to be successful, many MLS teams have them... also there's the new "second" division of teams being created for the sole purpose of developing players for the top league.
True that owners get paid whether their teams make the playoffs or not, after all they paid to have that privilege with the franchise fee...
But owners aren't judged by what the coaching staff and players do on the field on game day (that's an entirely different department)... they are judged by how much money and profit they bring in with their individual franchise, players and coaches can always be changed for not performing up to standard.
Relegation is expensive AF --- is also the main curse for the Premier League and LaLiga >>> ALL BIG TEAMS ARE IN DEBT BECAUSE OF RELEGATION AND ONLY THE BIGGEST TEAM WITH A SUPER RICH OWNER CAN WIN TROPHIES IN RELEGATION. >> Football Clubs should be a business not just a debt sink to the abyss
Guy on the right “because America”
Well it's true.
You’re right but are too full of yourself to listen
The problem MLS is structure like NFL , NBA and MLB, Divisions, play off and finals this can make sense here in the U.S.A is what we are use to it, but soccer usually don't work that way, sometimes a regelation battle is far more interesting than a final and also who's coming up to play in the top. Yes MLS may have to risk and restructure a lot.. But it would be awesome!😄😁😁
MLS is the most competitive league top to bottom. Most of Europe has an automatic champion. The only thing they have to look forward to is promotion relegation. The bottom teams tend to only stay in the bottom for 3 years max in MLS.
Not all of Europe has a league with a automatic champion, look at Leicester City in the 2015-16 season, they had odds of winning the Premier League at 5000-1 and were most likely team to be relegated however they beat those odds and became Premier League champions which was their first ever 1st tier league title in the football club's history
@@AdamTheMan1993 Leicester City were a one time champion and a exception not the norm. The Premier League in most years is a two or three team race for the top with another four teams fighting for a spot in the champions league and Europa league. The bottom ten are fighting to just not be relegated.
@@michaelphillips2629 Yet its still way more entertaining than the MLS and thats what its about. Not the champions, but entertaining football at the highest level
Those pundits are so sassy towards each other hahahah
it's cos of seb (the moderator) who tries to be sassy trying to roast everyone. he acts more like a participant in the debate than a host. i don't even know where he has played football tbh
I hate the argument that teams have nothing to play for as if that wouldn't happen in leagues with pro/rel. Plenty of mid-level clubs have nothing to play for the last couple of weeks and teams that have been relegated weeks before the end of the season (Sheffield United this year) have nothing to play for either. Pro/Rel isn't some magic panacea
Agree. And Mid-level mls teams do have to play and win to earn their spot in the playoffs
First time seeing this guy Seb. I don’t like him,
He does that on purpose if you watch enough of these you would realize that. I guess it adds fuel and drama to the debates which is always good for the viewers.
It's annoying that the guy who never has anything to add interrupts those who actually have something to say.
He’s a character. Every sports panel have a character like him to heat the conversations.
Horrible creature he is.
Yeah and he’s so f*cking ugly too
Pro-rel wont just magically make the league better. For MLS to get better, soccer has to become bigger at the grassroots level and become part of the national identity. Pro/Rel would hurt that at the moment. If soccer was firmly in the top 3 of US sports then the conversation could be had but right now, it's not ready.
They shouldn’t do relegation. Keep it how it is. The growth of the league has been truly amazing. Especially the past 10 years, but they have an identity crisis, or atleast fans do. Also the USL and other companies all have solid following for their level of play. The leagues under MLS have crazy fans. I feel like we’re a knock off premier league, especially with the names having FC enter city, although all soccer teams do that. This is the got dang USA, it’s soccer lol. I’m just playing about that part but seeing FC for American soccer teams is just weird. Let the players, and fans create their own soccer culture. In the end though American pro soccer still has its own feel, and you got to give your hats to the fans. They are a big part of modern mls. The fact that the league has the 3rd highest attendance in the US for pro sports is amazing. Also 9 in the world for all soccer leagues. I’m hoping T20 cricket will follow in success like the mls. Major league cricket in 2022 😎. Sorry for the rant fellas. Also major league rugby seems to be growing good. Dammit why do I like sports that aren’t big here lol
You also have teams that have facilities funded through public money and to tell that community/city that a former top-level club is now in a 'minor league.' Those funds are not there for minor league/lower-level teams, yes minor league teams in the USA get funds locally but it's a much lower level.
The United States is practically it’s own continent. Travel is just too much of a factor for our clubs. Daniel Workman offered a great alternative on his podcast. Instead of MLS, we have a Champions League style tournament every year. Then league play can be based on numerous regions that are a first division then drop down into state leagues, etc.
this makes sense actually im intrigued to have a discussion you have contact details?
@@carltonmukurazita2647 I have a concept I made and I didn’t even copy that dude. Wanna see
@@captainyank138 yea sure
I wonder how they would conduct the Pro/Rel with the conferences. Will it be like most leagues, bottom 3 relegated or like in France, Germany: the bottom teams do a pro/rel play offs to see who can stay in the MLS
Or maybe go the Belgium league route: first 6 teams to the championship group, while the bottom 4 teams have a mini league of their own battling for safety
I watched one game and you see lower team are playing for sake of playing . There's no motivation in playing
Everytime that you want something to change or want to implement something totally new you always get two types of people, one type that says: “it’s impossible, it can’t be done, it will never happen, it will be a disaster, it will failed” and the other type that that says: “it can be done, it will work, it will be a great success,”...and the people that always push society forward is the later and never the former....
The issue here is that MLS created most of the teams themselves and outright owns all of them (they are franchises representing the league... meaning, these teams cannot even legally exist outside of MLS (the top league) itself.
This isn't the case in other countries... they have actual "clubs" which are independently owned and operated.
So in wanting pro/rel in the US, you are already starting by trying to fit a square peg in a round hole... if every single professional soccer team in the US was an independent club, *then* such a change would be realistic to consider.
That said, pro/rel would *not* be moving "society forward" and would only serve to essentially kill off top-league professional soccer in the US as you seem to not comprehend how professional sports operate here.
My guy you can’t be emotional and your argument over people who believe that there can be changed. Obviously implementing that statement I believe in is a crucial way to develop things in life. But if you actually do your research and look up on the MLS and how it structured the clubs are not independent like any other team in Europe. So you’re basically asking the clubs who get relegated to be financially screwed and possibly just bankrupt which obviously is not a financial situation at the MLS would want to face since they are collectively sharing the revenue and that’s how the league has kept growing
As much as we would love Pro/Rel system, at this time, it’s obvious it cannot worked here in the states yet, for the simple fact it doesn’t makes financial sense. We don’t have enough fan base support to maintained a second division league in soccer. No Major League Soccer team would want to be dropped down to a minor league after investing so much financial resources and spending so much money without getting a return. Some MLS teams are still operating at a bare minimum and some even at a loss. Before we can have a Pro/Rel system we have to improve TV ratings throughout the whole nation. TV viewership is what brings the real money. *So if you’re a soccer fan, and there’s a MLS soccer match being broadcast either on TV or streaming media, watch it no matter if it is your team or not. It’s basically free entertainment. I’m a LA Galaxy fan but I watch any MLS match ESPN or FoxSports choose to broadcast.
"We don’t have enough fan base support to maintained a second division league in soccer."
That's a lie. We literally already have 4 or 5 professional soccer leagues in the USA....
MLS
USL Championship
USL League One
NISA
MLS Next Pro
@@adamamroun my guy there’s only an average of around 8000 fans in USL and that’s being generous on my estimation. But to sustainably keep these franchises afloat with the finances they need TV viewership. That’s why the Premier league and other leagues up top make a lot of revenue is because they actually draw in average of millions of viewers. Because the MLS is structured in a collective league and not independent clubs, everyone shares revenue which means if a club was to branch off or relegated into US so it would be basically bankrupt as well as hurting the MLS itself. Use some common knowledge and not be an emotional thinker.
@@joshuafischer4104
In my reply, I simply said that we do have enough fan base support for a second division league. Proof of this: USA already have a second division league (USL Championship).
"Use some common knowledge and not be an emotional thinker."
All I said was a simple fact. This fact has nothing to do with being an emotional thinker or anything else you're talking about.
@@adamamroun We do have a second division but there is not enough support to keep the second division at a high enough level for pro rel to make sense. Pro/rel in the US would ultiamtely jsut weaken the MLS.
Ask the owners that build a new stadium in Europe and then get relegated. Some how they know how to run a club the next year.
Both guys are right. The whole us sports system is build on the ground that the leagues are independent and the teams within the leagues are not, they're owned by the league. So what the guy on the left side says is the way to go, the teams need to be independent and not owned by the league and the us football federation or however they call it needs to run all the sport structurein the country. In this manner, promotion/relegation system will bring foreing competitiveness to the us teams in the international tournaments and ultimately this will have a sevearly high impact in the young talent development.
The soccer culture here in the US is increasing and putting a format for promotion relegation, will give us a cultural shift so we can be a dominant soccer country in the world. The governing bodies need to find a way to compensate the top tier clubs when some of them do get relegated. Just because the mls has been here for 25 years , doesn’t take away from the opportunity we have on how big this league can be. We are the richest country in the world and until we do not adopt a system where clubs actually try and compete rather than wave it off for next season, the league will NEVER grow to be as competitive as Europe.
In South America, the teams from each city fight and compete a lot to avoid lowering the level of the B, if you go down, they pay you less and you cannot compete with other countries, if you are in group A you will compete with others like Brazil , Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia. Chile, also if you can participate in the Club World Cup, where the best in Europe participate: Barcelona, Manchester, Bayer, Inter Milan, etc., and South America River Boca, Palmeiras, Inter, as a result of the fact that Cup The Club World Cup always wins a European or a South American, and also in the World Cup, because there is a lot of competition and the fight to always be in Group A
Ale wants MLS to be "inclusive not exclusive". So restricting entrance to the league to only those clubs that are able to fork over $200 million is the right way to go about that?
We need promotion/relegation. Period.
In the US the majority of teams would fold if they got relegated.
Yes. Specifically small market teams and some teams who have started in the last 5 years. An example is Nashville SC, they just built a new stadium and they have only been around for 3 years. And the owner is trying to recover from the cost of building that new stadium. And if Nashville got relegated, they would most likely go out of business because they have not been around long enough.
Relegation battlers i find more entertaining than teams fighting for the title. If u lose the title then ur still playing champions league, u still have a big salary, if u get relegated ur salary is halved u don't get to play the big boys and u will probably be hated by the fans forever.
Promotion/relegation isn’t the future. It’s the past.
The clubs which proposed the European Super League specifically created an organization with no promotion or relegation. From a purely economic standpoint for a potential owner of a club, pro/rel makes very little sense.
The only reason it won’t work is because no owner will be willing to give up their tv contracts. It’s really that simple. And why Yedlin dressin like he should be slangin yay in the corner block?? Bruh you play soccer 😂
The owners could make a lot more with promotion/relegation because interest and TV viewership in the MLS would increase.
Yelling out here pushing packs
How does TV money works in MLS?
The current East-West league + playoff combo system is a little weird, but maybe to create competition at the bottom of table is that the most bottom 2 team will get significant less TV/competition reward-money compared to the 3rd last and above
The most important tournaments in the world in soccer are:
World cup
european cup
America Cup
then the clubs
Champions League
liberators cup
Club World Cup.
If the United States does not improve their level, they will never be invited to these tournaments, except for the World Cup, because they are in CONCACAF, an area where qualification is easy because they do not have great teams in that confederation.
The majority of English clubs are over 130 years old. Most were formed in the 1880. Let the game grow naturally
@T h Shaikh exactly the mls has a stake in all. Imagine the premier league had a stake in every team in the premier why wojldthey want pro rel they'll lose revenue
I read somewhere that the framers of the NFL decided on enforced parity because, if not, fans of teams in smaller markets would quickly lose interest if their teams had no chance against bigger teams who would be perennial champions. So, we have the system that we have in place today. I think introducing pro/rel to NFL, NBA, MLB teams today could be welcomed by fans today as long as every team still had a chance. If there was still a measure of parity, that is. These are established leagues after all. No more tanking games at the end of the season or going for that #1 draft pick. Yes, there would be problems, but I think it could work in the long run. The same could be true for MLS someday.
have the best team in the lower division get the last seed in the mls playoffs or something and also have the salary cap lower in the 2nd division but not by a lot.
You can't have "parity" and Pro/Rel at the same time. Why should an owner who is wealthy be limited in spending so he can save his team only to give a fighting chance to the one with less money? Any league in the world that has Pro/Rel doesn't have salary cap restrictions. You can't have both, it's either or.
@@oyaml1211 he can spend a lot on designated players maybe expand it to 3 or 4 per team
I find this odd because supporters of Bournemouth, Leicester, and Burnley haven't lost interest over the last 100 years.
Yeah no you got no say for those leagues because they are popular my guy 🤣. Possibly the best in the world and you can’t disagree with that. There’s literally no reason for the American leagues (maybe besides MLS) to change since they’re the best leagues and no one can compete
Listening to this the problem is teams not having anything to play for. There could be some other kind of negative effective of coming at the bottom of the table, that is different from relegation. Does MLS have a draft? Maybe it could be connected to that? Maybe it could be financial?
You see that would have the same problem! The goal is to make bad teams better and for good teams to always be at risk of being brought down! If the sucky teams get punished, you are taking away their ability to improve! And that means the top teams can stay on top!
I think the MLS will eventually have Pro/Rel. But it will be internal. As long as revenue sharing remains a thing, it works for the owners. The hard cap for the MLS without pro/rel is about 40 teams. I don't think they will want to cap it there. The MLS gains popularity wherever it ccomes. It needs to go to every major market and that means 50-60 teams. What you can do is develop 2 leagues with each having a playoff. The only difference is that the lower league playing will include some top level clubs and the clubs that reach a certain point in the MLS2 playoffs will be given a spot in MLS1.
How about MLS 1 and MLS 2?
Lol you can name the divisions Harry and Sally which still implies promotion and relegation.
You clearly weren't paying attention to the video.
Nobody, I repeat nobody likes Seb! Even his coworkers
Yep, he's the Skip Bayless of soccer. Saying that Alphonso Davies is better then Pulisic shows that
@@WhiteLinesFootball agreed. i think davies can become one of the best left-backs in the world, pulisic is good but i dont think that he can become one of the best in his position (although i hope he can prove me wrong)
Wiley Hawkins he is better
Wiley Hawkins Lol Davies is better than Pulisic tho
MLS can't have a relegation because there isn't the fan base. The beautiful game is not played in every town, village, city, like it is everywhere else in the world. The relationship between fans and their home clubs is one of the most important aspects of their lives. We don't have that here. If their was a soccer virus and everyone caught it. Put their kids in their towns soccer club; they play against other clubs in the county on up. It just isn't as popular as we all wish it was. Best to send out young talent to clubs in England, France, Germany...I mean young talent. 8 years old and off to soccer boot camp and boarding school. We also don't have any competition playing against other Americans. This game begins in the streets or fields of dirt and rock. With bare feat and anything that can be made into a ball. When the U..S. feels that passion, they wil never make it to the next level.
Soccer in America is in no position to challenge the big four sports. If you ask the average sports loving American if they would rather attend a second division soccer game or attend a CFB game, NFL, MLB, etc, they ain't choosing soccer. Relegated clubs would pretty much disappear.
This moderator keeps on blinking every second 🥴
Then prepare to remain obscure
MLS doesn't need promotion and relegation, pro soccer does. The USSF should set up a parallel pyramid without MLS & USL.
Does dude understand America at all? All our sports are different. American fans would love to have a relegation/promotion system.
The system works in other sports, because it's connected to the draft that provides the best young talent. The problem of the system in MLS is that MLS draft does not provide the type of talent and it's all stagnated on the lower part of the table.
True but without the draft being important you also avoid teams tanking. The current MLS system is perfect
50+1! 50+1! That’s the solution in order for Promotion and Relegation can function in the U.S.
That would bring so much more culture to the MLS and would make this league outstanding in the USA.
MSL is talking about Growth,
Not about Football... 😭
Without one you don't have the other...
Would be all in favor of pro/rel but it’s like Moreno says, how do you establish it when MLS is just getting off the ground in the US? MLS die hard fans are few in number, relegating a team in MLS right now is how you lose viewers. There is no market for it right now, how do you make it realistic? Hopefully we get to a point where it makes sense. The competition would make the league more popular and more fun to watch.
What people overlook also is that MLS already has a form of pro/rel that perfectly satisfies the need for it...
It's called the playoff system... a team is either good enough to qualify for the playoffs and have a real shot at becoming the league champion, or they fail and your season is over.
They need to consider this because something needs to be done about the quality of the USMNT recently.
The playing pool is there and actually more talented than at any point in history in terms of individual players (Pulisic, Dest, Steffen, Weah, Reyna, McKennie), it's the organization and management of USMNT that's garbage.
Wait a minute seb may I please finish the wonderful points I make and then u can interupt
He didn't have any good points tho lol
Pro/Reg won’t ever work in the US. It’s a death sentence for teams who are relegated. Until soccer at the top and lower levels is supported at a higher level. It will not happen. USL teams in general can not compete with MLS teams, we saw what a majority USL roster would do in MLS with FC Cincinnati. Besides, currently, I love the Unpredictability with MLS. Different Champions all the time, unlike in Europe where it’s the same few teams over and over and over. No Pro/Rel keeps it more competitive and actually gives teams a chance to win titles.
100% agree with you, Nathan!
Since 2013, we have had a different team win the MLS Cup when Sporting KC won it. And during that time, only 2 teams have won both the Supporter's Shield (the regular season champ) and MLS Cup in the same year.
I love soccer more than any other sport and appreciate ESPN FC for investing in it, but it can often feel like I’m watching some of the most uncomfortable and unnecessarily tense debates on this channel...
I also enjoy; so much so, that this comment section talks about MLS and soccer in this country like it lives in a vacuum and the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL don't seem to exist in anyone's mind here. (Except a few.) lol.
That's because everyone here is European. Honestly relegation is a very good idea for the MLS but i dont think anyone realizes that American sports leagues operate much better than European football. The MLS is simply just trying to be the same as the NFL NBA MLB and NHL, which is not a bad thing. Compare the competitiveness of American sports leagues compared to European football and you will see the American system of things such as the draft or salary cap is very good. In American sports good teams can become bad and bad can become good. In football its the same club dominating every time. Maybe putting relegation in the MLS wouldnt be a bad idea, but generally American sports leagues work 10x better than european.
@@ronaldobetterthanmessi117 Wow. Someone who sees the truth. I can't agree more and I can't like your reply enough. Though no one would admit it... The American sports model is the most sustainable model in the world. Maybe some day more people will be like you and see this. lol
@@SuperSirianRigel If the system is so good, than why are all your teams dogshit?
Thank you! The thing people forget is that Pro/Rel is what creates systems where only 1 - 4 teams have any chance of winning the league and dominating. One thing I love about MLS and what makes it unique is that any team, any year can win the league or be a top competitor. Every year is a new narrative and even though your team was the worse team the year before, doesn't mean you will be again, you can win the league. Meanwhile in pro/rel, in leagues, you create narratives like PSG, Juventus, Bayern winning the league every year. If you are a fan of a middle table team in Europe the most you can hope for is another mid table finish, that sucks. Every year, if you aren't a fan of those top 4 teams in the top European leagues, the most you can hope for, for your team is not getting relegated or mid table finish, what is fun about that?
I wouldn't say that the fact that the same 4 teams finish at the top is because of pro/rel.
It's because of lack of salary & transfer caps. Before all the tv money started coming in the early 90s, there was more parity in these leagues. In the US, we have parity, but it's manufactured through stuff like the draft and salary caps.
What about the thrill of football,lets say you are a fan, In the MLS if your team loses the first ten matches, the season is done for you, you're not going to enjoy the rest if it as a fan of that club, and the matches wont be important any more
But lets say your in the prem, if you lose the first ten matches, than you are at risk, and that risk could maybe make your team survive in last days, and the thrill of surviving is enjoyable, you games are always important, because you might relegate or maybe even pull something special and go to the top again, watching your own favourite team, wouldn't be boring anymore
ngl if pep enters the mls he will make that league a farmers league that the repercussion of having the best of the best tbh
The "pointless games" argument doesn't make sense. In America the teams at the bottom of the field have pointless games towards the end of the season because there's no pro/rel. In Europe the teams in the middle of the field have pointless games towards the end of the season because there's no playoffs. Either way you end up with games that don't matter and at best will decide a couple of places in the standings.
You forgot the continentals championships
another huge problem is the Youth Recruitment. When i see the national Team than i see some talented players that are playing in Europe and a lot of players who are has beens and never have beens. Make the Sport cheaper and more widely available for children. Build more Youth Centers and try to get affiliate teams in the US or Europe to give these Players a chance to Develop. Improve Coaching and learn from European Clubs.
1st order of business is to listen to Wayne Rooney on why it will remain a retirement league and do what he suggests. 2nd order of business is to eliminate the rules for bringing in foreign-born players. Pro/Reg can wait when there is a broad range of talent within the league right now there isn't enough talent for the current lineup of teams let alone teams in a league below them.
I think there should be pro/reg cause it’ll make the game more fun so teams will want to fight and not get dropped down to a lower league. Some people will say “oh but it’s the American culture and no other sports do it” yea but that’s the problem over here people think it’s ok to not have it cause the nba and nfl don’t have pro/relg but every one else is not paying attention to the mls cause of it and if they want to pull in more views from around the world we should have pro/relg cause we already have talent over here but we need something extra to pull in more views from foreign countries
Pro/rel would make the local supporters even *less* interested in the long run...
Promotion and relegation is stupid. Bouremoth has a 11,000 seat stadium. They can't generate the revenue teams with large stadiums can. So the player wages are lower, so those teams bring worst players to the league than if you just leave the big teams like Newcastle and Sunderland in there. It weakens the quality of the league. Look at West Brom. They got rid of most of their starting line up and they still can't compete. They replaced them with guys they could afford with the TV money.
We can’t forget the U.S. is a very large country. If there were promotion and relegation, how would small clubs be able to pay to transport their teams such long distances.
Imgaine china having promation and sports
Wait I think they do