@@TrU3Ta1ent I do hope that the devs change how they address this stuff. I am doubtful though. They've done the same thing over and over again for years
Just so everyone understands this is more than just about spirit, I am using her as a platform to create a discussion to help change the "1v1 mentality" regarding this game. Cheers! Gabbing this because it will get lost but has great analytics and is along my line of thinking (of the 4vs1) of the game. - Lord Ginger - Ok, so assuming her phase is fully charged it has a 2 second wind up time so the survivor gets another 8 meters then she starts moving at 175% speed so now she needs to catch up 18.8 meters and gains on them at just over 3 meters a second, meaning a little over 6 seconds to catch up + the wind up 2 so 8 seconds of they just run in a straight line. But your missing the point. Spirit is”OP” because she gets survivors down in on average 35 seconds? Recently there was a game where they finished a gen in 22. Now that may be an outlier but 2 survivors without anything to affect it will finish a gen in 44 seconds. They need to do that 5 times + 20 seconds to open the gate. So assuming the other 2 are being chased or hooked or saving that still ends the game in 240 seconds. Now spirit gets downs in 35 second, pick up is 3 and hook is 2 so assuming no travel time cause we left if out for survivors as well that’s 40 seconds a hook, she needs to do that 12 times meaning 480 seconds. So survivors can end the game in half the time it takes the “OP” killer to get them all.
TrU3Ta1ent yeah it’s nice especially if you 2 can keep the discussion civilised it probably would have an impression on the community seeing that they can debate not insult and argue. It’s nice to see people at least attempting to be classy in a toxic community like dbd
Brian Conlee that’s not a way to test her it’s lot gonna be a 1v1 all game it’s a 4v1 just because she’s good in the 1v1 doesn’t mean she can ALWAYS win the 4v1 judging her based off of theoretical 1v1 situations doesn’t really help
Its just like how nurse used to be if nurse misses her blinks she's a bad nurse and if a spirit misses with her phase shes a bad spirit people try to make these arguments that you can't outplay these kills and if you do "outplay" them the killer is bad and it's all bullshit
Absolutely not. I am an experiences legacy nurse main, and certain survivors who are really good at running nurses around will CLOWN on me. I'm not a bad killer lol. My rank and ability to 4k nearly every game would prove otherwise. Some survivors are really good at the correct counterplay. Nurse after the nerf is totally the same, all the nerf did was increase the gap between good and bad nurses even further than it already was, without changing the position of good nurses. You aren't "outplaying" a bad nurse. You're BULLYING her. Bad nurses are easily the worst killer in the game post nerf. There is such thing as a good juke or good survivor.
@@quotient9974 ay man been playing only nurse for like 2 months now, got her maxed but im still strugling with red ranks mindgames, especially on walls, got any tips you could share? Im not a newbie nurse by any means, but id still appreciate any advice.
fuck B it allows the spirit to mind game but you’re just sitting there so you either get hit or you’re in the same place as if you’d just dropped the pallet normally so it’s a neutral/lose situation which means you can’t win the “mind game” by just sitting at the pallet
@@kyukon2276 Sitting at a pallet is pretty much the only defense survivors have against any killer. Spirit counters that. How can they 'mindgame' without a pallet?
I watch both Scott and Tru3 and felt through Scotts video he almost purposefully misunderstood everything to make it seem dumb but... If you watch tru3 play vs spirit you understand that these tricks work.
Regardless of if these tricks work or not, Spirit still has no counterplay. Flipping a coin and guessing is not counterplay. Counterplay is reactionary in nature, and for a Spirit to break this dynamic all she has to do is cover a random option / options every time and all of a sudden it's a coin toss.
@@yScribblezHD What is moonwalking at mindgameable pallets though? You cant see them or trust the red glow so you have to guess which way they went. Your point feels null because every killer should be able to essentially flip a coin as you put it because they should be rewarded for guessing correctly and also feel scary to vs. You know because theyre a killer. As well counterplay is not reactionary in nature that would more like tactics and mechanical knowledge, counterplay is strategic in nature.
barraktu Moonwalking is nowhere near the same thing as flipping a coin. For one, the survivor still has information, but the killer is mind gaming the survivor by manipulating the way this information is presented (e.g. moving in the opposite direction of the glow). This is surely a killer MINDGAME, but I was referring to COUNTERPLAY.
barraktu Also, counterplay is most certainly reactionary in the way we refer to it in video games. Counterplay as we use it in video games refers to countering (hence the name) the option a player chooses, and always involves some information related to the situation. If in a fighting game I throw the first punch and it lands, I didn't counter them. Counterplay is also usually referring to a defensive option. The reason why this does not apply to spirit in the traditional sense is because she relays little to no information for you to counter. If she chooses the same a random option every time, then past experiences (the only information you gain from spirit) give you nothing of value.
By taking your advice too literal, Scott's video is basically pointless. I knew what you were talking about when you said the spirit is coming straight at you when you're on a pallet. How did Scott not understand that?
yeahhh. I was watching his video and was kinda annoyed he took only one example from tru3 and borderline straw manned it when he could have easily understood what tru3 was saying. IMO spirit shouldn't get a nerf until keys and infinites and gens get a rework/adjustment. Spirit isn't fun? Neither are 4 man SWF on comms with coordinated builds using map offerings and keys with instaheals and kitted toolboxes. Same goes for Moris etc etc. "its not fun" isn't a good argument against killers like spirit or nurse when we have had gen speed as it is for sooooo long. I'd like a different spirit like how they changed Freddy. IMO, spirit is there for the stronger survivors. Not rank 10's who can't even fathom how rank 1 survivors end a match in less than three minutes.
Been on ghost face since release lol I'm glad there's no heat on him rn... Cause if they really complained about him then it just shows survivors really are trash with a plan to nerf everything so it's easier for them
@@fuckb4056 nice troll. Obviously you've never been during one of his stream or even showing any interest of tru3. He's been on this game since the beginning fella. He has played every god damn killers, you can find tons of videos of any of them. And really, if you dont acknowleged that this man doesnt have any skill in this game, then go see others and compare.
I think the idea is sometimes people think survivors shouldn’t be caught? The game has to be killer sided they need to be catching survivors more than they aren’t. Survivors job is to distract while the rest of the team can get gens done
"no one uses spirits power in short bursts", and here i am, using addons for faster phase start and faster phase exit speed to great success, but heartbroken now.
What he means is against those top level survivors, the best phase is long range to cover more of the map. Short phases are only used when you can guarantee a hit.
There was definitely some unnecessary shade leveled at Scott there, but I saw more than a few people either getting hostile with Tru3, or telling him he was being condescending, when he clearly wasn't. People just don't know what a civil discussion is anymore.
@@lordcrusader861 So just because of that people can't be civil and respectful? I now see that you're another one of those brainless redditors that resume everything to "He salty survivor main".
I'm so glad you and Scott are both encouraging non-personal, healthy discussion. This is great for the community at large, as we're trying to be objective and academic instead of emotional and defensive. Praises all around for avoiding unnecessary drama, and I hope more of this type of healthy interaction can be had.
Exactly less toxicity in debates maybe their chats will follow because rn Scott’s are coming for true and name calling etc which is childish and the same can be said for tru3’s
Officer Zack they both don’t tbh which is what I’m saying I hope they keep the discussion civil and can ignore the negative comments who seem to want drama between them im happy it’s not a full blown argument or insults aren’t being thrown it allows the rest of the community to want to follow because their favourite streamers are doing the same kinda like otz’s chat
45:40 - funny thing is that this survivor threw down a pallet and then run through the loop into the way he came from. Like... WHY? Not only he risks getting hit by Spirit walking into him since he goes literally hugging the wall but also, when u look at the power meter u can see that when Scott leaves the spirit world, he has NO CHARGE LEFT. That's just a mistake on survs part - if he's paid some attention then he would come to the conclusion that the Spirit's traveled distance is too high for her to go any further. Therefore the only thing he had to do was to throw down the pallet and run to another loop without going anywhere near her, he literally got himself downed for no reason. That's a great example of True's tactic - if he did it in that moment then he wouldn't get hit at all.
@@Acstasy @The Literals Yup, you can't see it while playing survivor. You can, on the other hand, estimate the distance that Spirit can travel while phasing. Base phasing speed is 7 meters per second, phase time is 5 seconds max. Just by looking where the husk is, it's entirely possible to roughly tell where Spirit can and cannot reach with her phase walk. Looking at the example in the video I've mentioned, the survivor guy would get another 10 meters just by running forward after dropping the pallet so it was 100% clear that Scott can't phase that far, especially after having to walk around the pallet. Trying to go back was such a poor play, he literally went into lion's jaws. Seems to me that Scott just wanted to look more legitimate with "the best survivor" bullshit. This guy may be a good player overall but he's nowhere near "the best in the world" level if I were to tell by this play.
i think arguments are healthy, but arguing points that weren't made irritates me so much. spend like 3 minutes talking about dropping pallets early (the play true said is better) then the rest of the video talking about NOT dropping pallets and showing why that doesn't work. Nobody he faced in his video dropped pallets early, not 1 single time.
I know I’m very late so bear with me. Although Dropping Pallets early can increase your chase time, you have to consider you are burning through non-renewable resources on the map. Now the next person who gets chased is going to have zero pallets to throw down because of the Spirit’s “counterplay”
Russell WestGOAT are you actually special, how much have you seen Scott play? He’s a killer main with like 4000 hours on killer and your saying he’s dog shit. Ok buddy, just because he’s trying to critique your favourite streamers ideas. That’s how good ideas are made by multiple people giving good input. Scott obviously didn’t spend a lot of time making this video and I see the condescending tone but he still bloody knows what he’s talking about, I’m sure he’d wipe the floor with you ;)
45:32 if he had used the technique you described in the beggining and dropped the pallet on the same side he came from he would’ve juked spirit so hard right here....
40:28 You're just guessing" Scott for some reason doesn't seem to understand that when you phase as spirit YOU are guessing where the survivor is going to be as well. This is not a guessing game between one party both killer AND survivor have to guess where you are. There is no add on for spirit that allows her to see survivor auras while phasing. There is equal opportunity for both killer and survivor.
It seemed to me like Scott misunderstood your main concept, by thinking that the spirit starts her phase close to the pallet, where the arrow was. This mistake not only makes him bring up poor counter-arguments such as "bumping into them", it was very close-minded and didn't account for any of the many variables, such as distance, layout, open space, angle of approach etc. He seems to also think that the survivors he plays against must be doing the optimal playstyle, so he can use his past games as reference... when the whole point of Tru3's example was to explain how 99% of survivors are making bad choices against the Spirit. Not enough players understand the concept of mindgames or conditioning. Also, getting stunned then breaking the pallet every time should be a guaranteed loss at high level of play, which is what should be under question. He then started attacking the straw man for 20m by arguing against his own poor concept. He also seemed to laugh at times, as if his counter-plays to his own foolish scenario had any value against your initial point.
indeed, looks like the people on his vid are pretty toxic too, supporting him by saying that tru3 is gonna respond in a toxic way and will be salty... etc, etc, its was bad.
I'm not sure why y'all are acting surprised? As if latching onto one piece of an argument and hyper-simplifying/misunderstanding it isn't a common strategy in "civil debate" :p
I think it's interesting how people on Reddit/UA-cam keep trying to say Tru3 is wrong when you literally just have to watch one of his streams to see he's right. If you can accurately and consistently predict what's going to happen in a game, and you use that information to win the game on a regular basis, you know what you're talking about. Can you imagine if people were this contrary in real life about a field like science or physics? Tru3: Gravity is real and we can see it happen literally every time you drop something or jump or throw something. Internet Trolls: No. You're wrong and that's stupid. Birds don't have gravity because they fly so obviously gravity doesn't exist. Tru3: (Some counterpoint way more civil/respectful than these trolls deserve)
Made Pandora well for one I didn’t say every spirit he goes against is bad and even I did why not? Similar to survivors, is it not possible for the killer to also be bad.
I think it's interesting that these two dbd streamers are trying to have a healthy discussion about a important topic in the game and you summed differing opinions as "He big internet troll".
Hey. I didn't watch the vid it's way too long and I prefer the gameplay BUT I came here to say that I tried one of Tru3 tips and spirit lost me. I usually like to do things my way but the situation and timing were perfect so I would be a proud idiot not to try. (The pallet drop in front) then I walked backward(20% faster thanks to my perk) and was able to go through a window and hide WAY before she appeared and sadly hit the air behind the pallet. That dude here is right his tip WORKED.
I think we’re all gonna wake up tomorrow to “my response to his response to my response to his response to my response to his response” Real talk though, it’s great that this discussion is happening and it hasn’t devolved into a non constructive argument
When you said spirit is the “necessary evil” it summed spirit up perfectly. The game needs spirits to show that they can beat the best of the best. Without the spirit the game could be a bully simulator for the top players
That may be true and I assume you aren’t including nurse but realistically speaking you’re only going against those type of survivors once every 25 or so games
@Rhysee7 the problem is that with spirit, no one is outplaying anyone with skill. its pure luck that is killer sided. thats why people dislike her. no one is arguing that there shouldnt be a strong killer in the game, there should. the reason people complain about spirit more than nurse is because there is counterplay to the nurse, even though she is mechanically better. there is no counter to spirit, you just run from her until u get unlucky. thats not countering.
i cant wait until part 5 of these going back and forth and the video ends up 3 hours long because the 1st Tru3 video was 10 min, then scotts is 20 and now we got a over 40min tru3 video. cant wait till these vids between these 2 exceed 2 hours
@@hip3rsnip3r78 I actually kind of like this, of 2 people of 2 different sides of a very big issue in the DBD community, 2 people who do know a lot about this game and have been playing for a ton of hours. show their reasoning and examples of their reasoning for their view on whether (for this topic anyways) spirit is balanced or not
Some people are just ignorant......I have 160 hours on survivor, made it to rank 1 yesterday and have always hovered around those ranks, always getting rank 1 killers with hundreds of hours on spirit. Watching Tru3's streams and videos if i miss a stream is the most helpful thing for this game, he's the only youtuber other than Otz who explains what hes doing and why or explains why certain things would work. Prior to finding tru3 i just assumed like most people spirit has no counter play, but it didn't take long of watching to realize just how much you can outplay spirit, i looped a good spirit yesterday for 3 whole minutes, while injured, with no iron will, running from loop to loop, pallet mind games, quick and quiet window vaults, all used, all things tru3 mentions you can use to out play and mindgame the spirit. People just think "oh she can go invis and hear you, you are fucked no matter what" but its not true, not even close to true and Tru3 (i've said true a lot god damn) proves it time and time again that there is plenty of counter play and mindgames you can pull. Sure shes very strong, but strong isnt always bad and it doesn't mean impossible.
When he says “run into each other” at the beginning, he is not talking exclusively about them actually colliding, which is a point he made early on the first time he said it. Every time he says it from then on, that explanation of them being nearby and so you can hear their breathing footsteps because they are next yo each other is applied to the statement “they will just run into each other”
Except tru did acknowledge hearing survivor breathing and footsteps he said if they drop the pallet theres the big boom of the pallet dropping you arent going to immediately be able to pick up on some breathing after such a loud noise ... ?
OswinOsgood im saying its a thud, not an explosion, and therefore doesnt last 5 seconds as is implied in the video. Its also not that hard to hear. I feel like true is assuming that average people “dont hear as well as he does” but i promise you scotts argument that you can hear the survivors is completely valid.
zachattack I could argue that the latter came first. I can only speak for myself in this situation: When I started playing survivor, I was a potato and killers just saw me as easy points. But when I became good (knowing how to juke, capitalize jungle gyms and other terrain, flashlight saves and standard pallet/window blinds, mindgames etc) that's when killers became vengeful and started sending me hate mail. They called me toxic, but why? For being a good survivor?
I've watched both of you from the early days. You since injustice and scott since dark souls. He uses his normal amount of "absolutes" in his video. Your varying perspectives are great since it furthers the discussion in a game I love. I don't agree with his video as it is less of a discussion and more of a blatant bashing of a type of playstyle. His other video explaining why people have such a unfun time playing against the spirit is great and mostly is the root of the problem because she doesn't provide consistent feedback like other killers do. It's kind of like when NRS games introduce a new fighter and they are instantly labled OP because of the curve people have to go through learning to counter the Spirit. Scott is essentialy saying Spirit is uncounterable. His viewpoint is going to be extremely more popular since it is better to convince people that the problem is with the game as oppossed to with themselves. I appreciate the video and if Scott counters again I hope he includes outside the box methods with countering the Spirit instead of just saying "nope this is wrong and here's why." It is all opinions people remember that , don't go to Scott or Tru3 and divide the playerbase. Noone is correct here and anyone parading that they have the answers is part of the problem and not the solution.
I think we can all agree that big DBD streamers are atleast a little full of themselves. I like that Scott has moved away from speaking about balance and things as if his word is fact, and has started stating that he is speaking subjectively from his experiences with the game
Personally, I think the spirit has some counterplay, just not enough. Whenever I go against a spirit, as a spirit main myself mind you, I dont feel like I'm outplaying her or making smart reads, I feel like I'm making blind guesses. I'm trying to predict the spirit, and thinking "what would I do", but it simply doesnt feel like I'm reading her because of how much information she has in comparison to you. I think that she could use a slight nerf. And when I say slight, I mean slight. Just some sort of little change that would make it so you have more feedback on what shes doing as a survivor. I want her to maintain her strength and viability but I think she needs a little bit more counterplay to be fair. There are definitely things you can do that would mess up the spirit and prolong your life, but those counters are too iffy and rely a but too heavily on guesswork imo.
40:00 "You aren't going to have time to react if they are a good spirit" again which has nothing to do with spirit and everything to do with skill of the player as killer. If you can't react in time than he is better than you plain and simple.
Spirit has counter play. Counter play does not equate to looping for 5 gens and escaping. The game is a 1v4, not 1v1. Yes, make some kind of semi-subtle indicator for when she's phasing on all skins. Yes, feel free to rework Prayer Beads. Some people don't do well with different challenges, so they want it removed to accommodate them. Some people are just stupid. You can't argue with stupid.
No Counter play here means no matter what u do you would still get fucked. Sure killers can be countered even in simple ways like going into sharps corners when facing an Oni or just leaving the loop when trapper places a trap and there's still chance for both sides to make plays. With spirits u tend to find urself with little to no options.
None of this made any sense to me. Don't drop the pallet and mind game it to juke and prolong chases because Spirit can break pallets? It fucks over your whole team to drop pallets, so only other players are allowed to use pallets? Don't walk vs Spirit to juke them because Spirit is fast and can't be juked in Phasewalk? You can't condition someone until you've spent a long time observing and analyzing them? The conditioning starts as soon as the answer to the 1st mind-game is seen. His whole video seemed to be: 'You can't mind-game Spirit because Spirit is OP, so just run.'
32:46 As a clown main, i wish i was this lucky with matchmaking to get survivors that simply don't repair gens. This guy is really blessed by the entity, i guess.
15:00 Exactly how I play at high ranks. I can tell immediately: "It'll take forever to catch this survivor." I will avoid that person until they try something like a body block or a save.
After hearing both analysis, I understand them but IMO there are points that were not considered, BTW I'm not dissing tru3 or Scott, both have some valid points however there are things that still make me scratch my head... 1. Tru3's tactic relies on that the spirit is phasing then you drop the pallet then walk in other direction, knowing fully that she is doing that, but what if spirit is faking when she stops? That's very situational, many things have to happen and then the strat will work. So you run away, she stays still but she doesn't phase then she sees you putting down the pallet, you walk and then she catches you with her power. As long as you are in her terror radius you won't hear the phasing sound and you have to be inside terror radius and also assume the pallet you want to use is within that distance. 2. Add-ons are everything, what if she has charging add-ons, mother's ring, yakuyoke, prayer, speed addons? That will change everything. If she has the green charging and mother's ring she will catch you before putting down the pallet assuming you get to the pallet on time. 3. Also assuming spirit doesn't have brutal, spirit fury, enduring she won't care about the pallet at all if she has. With stridor she will hear you all the time. Any killer has their own builds, some off meta, some meta, so chances are 50% 4. Yes, one long chase can cost 3 gens IF/ASSUMING 3 survivors are repairing at the same time, knowing that one is being chase, if they don't, the killer will come back. 5. Also survivor perks can play a key roll in the mindgame. Let's go back to tru3's fuck head as he says. Spirit is phasing, you drop the pallet, you walk away, and then she goes to another direction. What if the survivor has dance with me, lithe, quick & quiet combo? Again, she uses her power, you get to pallet, drop it but instead of walking away, you fast vault it with the 3 perks ready to proc. 6. I get that tru3 analysis is focused on high level players but it means that we expect that all of them will stick to the gen and the killer only chases one guy in a long chase, that won't happen all the time. If smart the killer will realize and change their plan. 7. Wasting pallets is not a thing? So i can drop the killer shack pallet in mid chase like that just because and then what? I taking away one resource that the rest of the team might need in a given scenario. To end, I respect tru3 and scott's point of view but everything is so situational, there are lots of variables that can affect the overall game.
I would be able to take this guy more seriously if he didnt misquote 80% of what you said. And in addition, he dealt only in absolutes. He didn't account for nearly zero variables. he knows the game, clearly. But for this video, he didnt rebuttal your points. Or at least did not articulate it very well.
I know TrU3Ta1ent wants to keep this civil but when TrU3Ta1ent said “So you gonna break it and go to another loop and break it and go to another loop and 4 gens will be done. If that actually worked wouldn’t it work with every killer? Just use brutal strength and a 115% killer because if spirit is 110% then it shouldn’t it be stronger with a 115% killer?” I started dying of laughter that was hilarious how he immediately shut down that logic I agree with TrU3Ta1ent when thinking about balance look at the highest level of survivors because everything is broken and unbalanced to a person new at the game
Rational Commentary that may be true (pun intended) but you can’t deny that he does consistently juke spirits plus he plays at red ranks. The majority can’t speak for every single person. I agree with the statement that she needs tweaking but not a full on nerf. Just minor changes would be great. Plus spirit actually requires some skill because if she didn’t require any than any person can play spirit and win which isn’t true because even at not red ranks (I play at purple) some spirits are just not good at all so it does require some mind gaming on the spirits part. The only spirits I hate are prayer beads as most of the time I avoid getting in chases if it’s spirit.
Was watching this in the stream earlier today, glad to see the civil response and critique of his points since as you say some are genuinely valid while others were literally just strawmen against things you never even mention lol. Either way discussion is a good thing and while Spirits nerf won’t get changed, hopefully even a few people will have their eyes opened before it goes out.
I am surprised most people are debating the "skills and time they have in the game" and are very negative to Scott. I am disappointed. They have different play styles and opinions ok. DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES!
He is optimal with pallets and helps his team with the different ways a match could go. Tru is thinking about ways to win. Which is fine as I said different play styles
you could invite him to an voice chat discussion! like via discord or something that would make it more interactive and easier to discuss :D also would probably be really interesting for both of your communitys :D
Or both fanbases could (read: should) instead respectfully disagree with the other and continue a healthy debate so as to better understand the other's arguments the game. Wishful thinking nowadays, I guess.
@@CodyRockLee13 honestly I wished that people would have been civil but thats asking too much especially on the internet when they can act like idiots with no repercussions
Lord Haari yeah it would be nice for the game community to be mainly civil but it really isn’t tbh most people are toxic it’s the basis of the community . I’m waiting for the day killers go on strike or start dcing against stuff themselves if the game becomes to unfair or spirit becomes bad. Just to see the devs reactions and watch the game die lmao. It has potential which is VERY obvious and they are at a stage where it is the on game at a decent stage like it. So they could take advantage of it and put more stuff to balance the game/make it more fun and then advertise the game more but they don’t. If they played e game at a high level themselves they wouldn’t be relying on the player base and could be making educated decisions based on what the people who play the game in the group of devs think. Rn they’re just choosing to listen to 1 side (mostly) and the other when they become loud and outraged about something. Btw sorry for the long comment to something so simple lmao
Shane yea he was the real killer lol spirit was the victim... and plague always confused me she was actually trying to help people in her past life so why is she a killer?
@@redd-iveee4400 that confused me as well. Why did the plague become a killer despite having faith in her gods? And why did the entity pick the spirit rather than her father who killed the whole family vs a daughter who wanted revenge on just the father and not others?
The problem with Spirit is that her counterplay is unreliable and based on guesswork. There's no foolproof way to avoid taking a hit from her when she uses her power. When you're playing against Hillbilly, you can avoid being hit by his chainsaw if you focus on breaking line of sight with him and force him to make lots of tight turns. He'll probably still get you eventually, since Bloodlust will come into play, but you can extend the chase time quite a bit if you know what you're doing. When you play against Huntress, it's a similar story. If you break line of sight with her (Or if you're in an open area, don't run in a straight line), you can dodge a lot of her hatchet throws and extend the chase time significantly. But against Spirit, there's no surefire way to avoid taking a hit when she phases. If you equip Iron Will, Spine Chill and Fixated, then create a misleading trail of scratch marks for her to follow, there's still no guarantee that you won't take a hit. The Spirit might bump into you while phasing, or predict the trick, or hear your footsteps, or hear your breathing with Stridor, or make a lucky guess, or just do a fake-out that can't be detected with Spine Chill. No matter how much you try to outplay her, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway.
Hey welp, i have a really good counter argument to scott saying "it's not MK you dont have the time to do conditionning" well, let's assume we're talking about top level games, top level means probably swf, swf = 2hit per survivor to go down, 8xhits = 1 hook per surv ; potentially 16 maybe 24 hits, do you see where i'm going ? Hmmm what if swf tried communicating on chase habits of the opposite spirit ? And use the power of team communication to figure out the patterns in the opposite killer ? As you always say this game is a 4v1 not a 1v1. Also I play melee competitively and it's not unusual that you need just 4 good openings to win a game, same for DBFZ, same for SkullGirlz etc.. yes the 1st surv who's being chased is in a bad situation because he has to make a read based on nothing but in a 4v1, the 4 units should react/adapt to what the 1 is doing not the opposite, otherwise its not fairly balanced but that's on other topic. That one surv did not waste a pallet, even if we went down in 15sec, every interaction is an important information. a killer should always win the 1v1 because he usually has to manage a 4v1 situation it's just plain logic..
the reason people dont like trues logic is because he bases all his points on his own games he gets on stream. He pretty much exclusively faces stream snipers and high level swf. His games are probably the furthest you are going to get from a normal game. For his games, spirit probably is balanced, but for every solo que survivour she is op. it is unrealistic to think that every game is going to go by in 260 seconds or whatever when you are facing 4 solo survivours. they just dont.
Sam K He doesn’t base it on his own games alone. Top level play is what he basis it on. That’s how it should be. No game balances around it’s lower level player base. That would be a busted game, which is where dbd is heading if they keep nerfing viable killers.
@@PrimoHydra its not about balancing it for bad players. Its about balancing it for solo players who make up the majority of the player base. The majority of teams don't have comms, don't bring keys, don't bring brand new part, don't all have ds etc etc. The majority of teams are just playing the game to their best potential as a solo que survivor. Saying that the game should be balanced for the top 5% of survivours by putting in a braindead, no skill, luck based killer like spirit is dumb. I play both sides equally and have played my fair share of spirit. Do we need a strong killer for high rank, swf key games? Yes. How many games are actually like that? About 1 in 50 unless you're True.
Sam K With the current state of the game, u don’t even need a SWF to beat a really good spirit. U just need a solid squad. Secondly, ur saying nerf spirit and have those top survivors be unbeatable. That’s ridiculous. Finally, spirit does have counter play, it’s been shown time and time again. What is brain dead is looping m1 killers around god loops.
This is honestly like watching a mini episode of Every Frame A Pause. You've got strawmen galore, taking the absolute worst possible interpretation of True's idea, arguing about a subject without proper understanding of the issue, and even the classic "guy includes footage in his video that directly counters his own points". He was nice enough in the video but if you're going to make a critique/response video to somebody you should at least understand what they are actually arguing
Sooo, Scott Jund is saying that his idea with the pallet drops doesn't even remotely works. I can remember that tru3 did the exact same thing a few days ago in one of his videos. It was on the map of the plague in a jungle gym. Tru3 gives real evidence to his theses. He is not like some imbecile making things up, crying for attention or drama. Rly makes no sense to me that some people are so adament against him, but whatever. And omg, Scott is truly a simple mind. One must love 1 dimensional thought processes.
@@Sarahsqueak not that I'm justifying being rude to Scott (love his content), but are you also defending Tru3 over on Scott's video where like 70% of his fanbase is doing nothing to add to the discussion and instead are just dick riding and calling Tru3 names as well?
@@Sarahsqueak I wasn't rude to him. I would be rude if I would call him an idiot or vermin, but I didn't. The only word, which is an insult in my text is imbecile, which wasn't directed at Scott, but some imaginary youtuber, who just is meh. The 1 dimensional part is not an insult (for me atleast), but a way to categorize humans (also for me). I called him 1 dimensional, because he simply isn't thinking that far (example: His "counter" to Tru3's idea to drop the pallet early was that they run into each other, because Scott uses Tru3's picture at face value). He just views one variable, while Tru3 thinks in many more (Tru3 also explained that). I simple called out the fact, that Scott wasn't thinking critically enough. But you are right, that this is a civil debate and I think that this is nice for a change.
Both you and Scott are being reasonable about this but unfortunately the whole spirit situation itself includes a lot of overzealous weirdos that treat this like some sort of ideological world war on both sides. Comment section both here and on his video have a ton of absolutely garbage crybaby/ad hominem comments lmao.
The clips he’s using to counter your argument are literally STARTING from the power position you’re specifically negating by slamming the pallet down as an initiation
GeorgeBucketHat but why are you trying to make it into drama it’s a NON-PERSONAL debate of course directed at each other to see the other persons points but I don’t think either of them meant it toxicly it’s a response and he’s responding as how he feels is according same with Scott
GeorgeBucketHat but it was a discussion not “taking it to heart” that’s what irritated me they are debating tru3 did a 10 min vid, Scott did a 20min vid as a response which he is right to do and so tru3 responded back the length of the video doesn’t imply anything just let them debate. Then you want to say I’m causing drama lmao when I was stating that what you said was unnecessary
Michael Myers you’re causing all types of drama here Michael, if this is the case and we’re all aloud to discuss our opinions here I think that true talent making a 48 minuet video is over the top. What are you gonna do about it Michael Myers ? Hmm?
To be fair, if the chase against Zubat took 34 seconds average, you also have to look at the time it takes the survivors to unhook + heal. You tend to look at the situation of: The game just started, all 4 survs are on gens. If they don't heal, they still need 5-10 seconds to unhook, and the next chase against them will be alot quicker because they are injured already.
Every time I play spirit in the past two months the team just gives up... Before that I had normal games, some win some loose. I kinda think that the whole "Spirit has no counter play" Seems new and if you don't try and get better then that's like saying. "I keep running into trapper traps, there is no counter play please nerf".
People don't like opinions because opinions are offensive, but I'll stick with tru3's logic it's helped me with beating spirits some times making them rage quit. Spirit is able to be outplayed but you have to think it about it. The higher ranks isn't a m1 brainless game. It's why people played nurse and now spirit. Survivors who can't think for themselves are the ones who die constantly because they want a brainless m1 killer.
I have to say this was great to watch. If this happened more, the game would be heading in such a great path. You brought up a lot of great points, and yes people need to realise that it IS a 1v4, and that isnt even accounting for the killer having ruin, Gens can go even faster. I hope i see more videos like this, not only from you, but from others as well.
2:24 this was one of the first (of many) things that irritated me about Scott's commentary: clearly, you did not intend to say "walk into the spirit", you were just communicating "walk away from the pallet without having gone through it" - such a small, obvious mistake, but people are so opportunistic in arguments.
@@okayiguess5156 Yea Nurse was also "changed" not nerfed ... those developers can't make balanced game simply because they balance round rank 10-20 where no one knows what he is doing.
Instead of changing spirit and nurse, couldn't they have just buffed the other killers and got rid or omega blink and prayer beads? Or at least changed the add ons instead?
I'm convinced that the only people who want The Spirit nerfed are entitled survivor mains. People say that this guy Scott plays killer, but how much killer are you actually playing where you think that breaking every/almost single pallet while chasing one survivor will result in only two gens done? Are you a yellow ranked killer? You must be if you think that.
The bandwagon is to nerf spirit man. But yeah we try to mod the chat as best we can and tbh we have one if the best moderated chats on dbd. When differing opinions happen on dbd the community gets it's most toxic and our chat was very tame to what others would have been.
@@TrU3Ta1ent I understand your point but I saw a lot of things that were just too unnecessary to be considered tame in your chat against Scott. Yeah DBD is toxic in of itself but you try to better the community and a good place to start is bettering your own. Others chats are worse, I 100% agree but it doesn't make it yours not toxic.
@@Pahjuju There are two differences: 1: tru3 was live, and was reading these things or at least his moderators were during the moment and had no issues with it. Of course tru3 said and wanted it to be all in good faith but things were still said and let slide live. 2: tru3 is the self acclaimed fighter of toxicity on DBD, he says people snipe him due this reason because he wants the game to be a better place when it's the same in his own chat. Now I dont know much about Scott but I did see some things in his comment section, the difference being that Scott isnt trying to fight toxicity. Does that make what happened in Scott's comment section acceptable? No, however from what I saw from Scott's own video he was very constructive and maybe the worst thing he said were quips of "how this wont work at all". tru3 was somewhat mocking Scott thus laying out the foundation of what people had to say negatively.
So what? Keep crying little bitch grow a pair it's just a chat and it was not even toxic lol just because u don't agree with tru3. Ofcs everyone was moking Scott he didn't even took seriously tru3 advice/video
Relaxing in the evening watching Tru3 is the best :) The person doing a critique on you didn't think it through. In your first drawing, where you suggest that the survivor moves right and down, you should've said that the survivor could've walked elsewhere. All 3 of these videos on counterspirit and critique are excellent btw
The argument isn’t that spirit is too strong, that’s a straw man argument. Aids The argument is that she is unfair and unfun. This isn’t a competitive setting
It seems to me that he has his mind set already on how the spirit is over performing or "OP" and his thought process is only set to 1v1. Not for nothing but im sure that majority of people are just jumping on the i hate spirit band wagon and not legitimately using their own brain or skills to vs the spirit. They go into matches saying 'spirit op no point in trying' *DC* and that is their justification on DCing and agreeing with people who play a significant role in the DBD community that are narrow minded. While i recognize there does need to be some tweaking done to spirit, these people aim to destroy so they can continue to not have to think while playing survivor. I dont think thats exactly fair either. I think survivors should feel some of the same pressure killers face tbh.
I find it really tough to understand anything when you just talk over Scott constantly. It doesn’t seem like you’re actually listening to what he says, merely looking for little quirks in language and semantics to latch onto. It just creates a very confusing mess of me trying to understand what you’re saying and what point you’re disagreeing with
Rhysee7 even still it’s a little off. It’s not like tru3 is really listening to Scott either, he’s just latching onto his word choice and talking over Scott’s actual points so he doesn’t have to address it. I’m sure it’s completely unintentional, but it looks very unprofessional and like he’s dodging the point. It very much looks like tru3 is just deflecting and trying to save face. It’s him saying “no, I wasn’t showing how to counter spirit, just how someone could potentially maybe once in a million scenarios have a chance to make the right play if the spirit doesn’t move a certain way. Not much of a counter, just a weak backing down from any real discussion
Rhysee7 that’s my point, that it wasn’t intentional but still happened. This isn’t something that should’ve been covered on stream with constant distractions, he should’ve dedicated his full attention to it at some point to come up with a proper argument. I’m not saying I absolutely disagree with Tru3, just that I can’t follow his argument in this format. I’d be very interested in seeing a proper debate or discussion between these two to get both sides of the story, but if I can only properly understand Scott that only gives me half the argument. I can’t watch an almost hour long video repeatedly to make sure I properly understand what he’s saying, most of us simply don’t have the time for that
I feel like the main issue with spirit isn’t necessarily the lack of counterplay but the fact the counterplay is so complicated. The fact that the way to beat a killer is exclusively to blindly mindgame and gamble isn’t good game design
I feel like, in terms of W/L ratio at Rank-1, Spirit is perfectly balanced. Needless to say, she can feel very frustrating to verse sometimes. My main frustration is the pure lack of skill and intelligence she takes to play effectively; I’m an experienced Red-rank, mid-high tier killer player and I find that she is incredibly easy to play to the point I almost feel bad. To elaborate, it’s too easy to track down injured people and collision if heavily in favour of her and the stand still mindgame (yes, I agree that it’s a mindgame) is waaay too in favour of the Spirit. Ideally, I’d want the Spirit to receive some reworks but still maintain the same W/L in high ranks cuz survivor is way too easy as it is. Here are a few ideas of my own: 1) When the Spirit stands still for 1 second, over the half a second following, survivors begin to disappear. However, the amplitude of an uninjured survivor’s breathing increases by 30% and the sound of notifications and gen sound decreased by 70%. Survivors’ oral sounds are omnidirectional, hence excluding grass shuffling. 2) After standing still for 1.5 seconds and beginning to move, the Spirit will have charged up haste and move from 120% to 110%, decreasing uniformly over 1 second. (If the Spirit stood still for say 0.75 seconds, she would move from 115% to 110% over 1 second.) 3) Collision is no longer a thing, but when the Spirit passes through a survivor, the survivor quietly gasps so both player can hear it and hence both can react to it. What an easy fix to such a glaring problem. 4) During phasing in general, survivors’ oral audio is omnidirectional. This can be changed to directional through the, obviously, reworked Prayer Beads. 5) The Spirit can use her power more often. I understand that the first two suggestions are a handful to read but I believe it could be a really interesting dynamic. Hopefully these changes would make her less frustrating but just as effective. *Anyone is free to reply and leave their opinion, but think about what you say before you say it.*
Xarm Chia By omnidirectional, I mean you can’t distinguish the direction of the sound. The point in this is so the Spirit still has evidence that the survivor is in the general vicinity, but cannot mindlessly follow the sound.
Ben W talking about the “omnidiretional sound” thing, if that gets implemented than spirit is surely going to lose more frequently. While phasing you have no way to hear and understand the position of a survivor if you’re not hearing their breaths/moans, just hearing their footsteps is not relayable. There’s tons of situations in which survivor footsteps are silent (or almost), for example when a survivor walks where there’s short or enexistent grass, particularly if you’re phasing.
23:10 I think you hit the nail on the head and a lot of people don't seem to realize. You balance for top level which makes the skill ceiling higher meaning you feel more accomplished when you actually climb the ladder. If everyone who plays their favorite killer feels like theres no point if im not playing nurse then other killers need to step it up a bit.
"the spirit can use her power is short bursts to recover quickly" yeah if you're an idiot that stays in the loops. You need to always run away and gain distance from her any chance you get and she'll use her power to catch up and it'll take time to recharge and at that point she's a normal killer until she gets her power back
@@supergamingcanalsecundar3049 not all spirits run the same add ons tho. But regardless, if you stay around a pallet thinking you can loop her or mind game her like a normal killer, you're Gonna get your cheeks clapped. I say spirit is one of the best killer who capitalizes on Survivors mistakes the best.
@@supergamingcanalsecundar3049 Underrated combo. That shit absolutely broken. Countered only by unmindgameable windows, which are spirits weakness anyway. That and Prayer Beads could use a nerf, for sure.
First 5 minutes I have gathered 2 inferences. 1. Tru3 is talking general theory and Scott is talking specifics. Scott is not critiquing the theory. He is critiquing the example. 2. The survivor strat is to loop and drop pallet. This doesn’t work on spirit because of phase/ fake phase. Since this strat works on all killers except Nurse and Spirit. It’s not fun/fair to the survivors. I agree with Tru3 on this. I see many survivors complaining about only play against a few killers at high ranks. This is why; because you want all killers to fall into the loop>palette drop>repeat strat.
I’d love to see a video of True playing against 4 of himself, or the skill equivalent. Without the use of OP stuff like keys. It’d be a sweaty event but hella entertaining. I’d wager it’d be survivor favoured though.
I swear to god, if people played fighting games, they would understand what tru3 is on about from the get go. Blows my mind how people cant understand basic mindgames logic
@Rhysee7 yeap, fighting games are kinda hard to get in if you never played or have some one to explain you the basics.. but once you start playing you realize its not only mashing buttons and jumping around, you HAVE to condition your opponent or else you are fucked (obs if you are playing vs a good player, if you are not then its w/e you can play with your food lmao)
"Im trying to keep killer where they can beat any team" Tbh that is problematic to me. I'm assuming he means killers can 4K any team because most killers wouldn't consider 2 kills and 2 escapes to be winning, even though that is logically where the game should be balanced. But if we are talking about the best players in the game, four amazing survivors should be able to shit on an amazing killer. The odds of actually getting four decent survivors in one lobby is already so minuscule because the majority of people at rank one are still potatoes, but the entire community is not rank one. The majority of players are below rank 10 and killer dominates in low ranks already, if they were to buff killers to the point where they could kill any team of even the best survivors, low ranks would be horrendous. It is already a slaughter for new players and nobody would continue playing dbd if you got beat by the killer in your first minute of every match while youre trying to learn the game. People only consider the balance of the game at rank one, and I do believe that in high skill games killers could use a buff, but in low ranks the game is drastically killer favored already and any changes would make the game unplayable for people trying to learn the game.
If someone is at the highest possible skill with Trapper, but has a 0% chance to win against a skilled 4 man swf, that is a problem. We want the killers to at least have the potential to win with enough skill. That's what Tru3 meant...
And then he makes a video about your reply to his reply, and you reply to his reply to your reply to his reply
With both sharing the previous video in their video, making an ever increasing video loop.
@@Rhyza13 until she is nerfed and then all of this is irrelevant
@@SlumChip the conversation isnt irrelivent. Im using spirit as a platform
this will continue to the heat death of the universe.
@@TrU3Ta1ent I do hope that the devs change how they address this stuff. I am doubtful though. They've done the same thing over and over again for years
quite the spirited discussion
Hey I watch your vids
You're a great youtuber
we need pun police
One-two, Freddy is coming for you. Three-four, better lock the door :P
I like your vids btw :)
Lmao I see what you did there
Just so everyone understands this is more than just about spirit, I am using her as a platform to create a discussion to help change the "1v1 mentality" regarding this game. Cheers!
Gabbing this because it will get lost but has great analytics and is along my line of thinking (of the 4vs1) of the game. -
Lord Ginger
-
Ok, so assuming her phase is fully charged it has a 2 second wind up time so the survivor gets another 8 meters then she starts moving at 175% speed so now she needs to catch up 18.8 meters and gains on them at just over 3 meters a second, meaning a little over 6 seconds to catch up + the wind up 2 so 8 seconds of they just run in a straight line. But your missing the point. Spirit is”OP” because she gets survivors down in on average 35 seconds? Recently there was a game where they finished a gen in 22. Now that may be an outlier but 2 survivors without anything to affect it will finish a gen in 44 seconds. They need to do that 5 times + 20 seconds to open the gate. So assuming the other 2 are being chased or hooked or saving that still ends the game in 240 seconds. Now spirit gets downs in 35 second, pick up is 3 and hook is 2 so assuming no travel time cause we left if out for survivors as well that’s 40 seconds a hook, she needs to do that 12 times meaning 480 seconds. So survivors can end the game in half the time it takes the “OP” killer to get them all.
Cheers!
TrU3Ta1ent yeah it’s nice especially if you 2 can keep the discussion civilised it probably would have an impression on the community seeing that they can debate not insult and argue. It’s nice to see people at least attempting to be classy in a toxic community like dbd
Thank you for showing the rest of the community that its possible to have debates without getting crazy.
Tru! I think the obvious solution to this debate is scott jund as spirit, you as survivor. Each pick a map. Average time of 10 chases on each map.
Brian Conlee that’s not a way to test her it’s lot gonna be a 1v1 all game it’s a 4v1 just because she’s good in the 1v1 doesn’t mean she can ALWAYS win the 4v1 judging her based off of theoretical 1v1 situations doesn’t really help
"34 seconds chase average"
*Clown crying in the background*
Pig crying in the corner as claudette doing gens, you ?
Trapper crying in the basment
A cloaked wraith is crying somewhere
Bubba crying together with 1 hooked survivor xD
Crapper laughing at you.
These videos are perfect examples of “attack ideas, not people.”
at the end of the day, everyone wants to have a fun and balanced game
Its just like how nurse used to be if nurse misses her blinks she's a bad nurse and if a spirit misses with her phase shes a bad spirit people try to make these arguments that you can't outplay these kills and if you do "outplay" them the killer is bad and it's all bullshit
Nurse missing a blink bad nurse? where the hell did u hear that
from the survivor rule book
@@SukaiBTW you'd be surprised how many people think that way
Absolutely not. I am an experiences legacy nurse main, and certain survivors who are really good at running nurses around will CLOWN on me. I'm not a bad killer lol. My rank and ability to 4k nearly every game would prove otherwise. Some survivors are really good at the correct counterplay. Nurse after the nerf is totally the same, all the nerf did was increase the gap between good and bad nurses even further than it already was, without changing the position of good nurses. You aren't "outplaying" a bad nurse. You're BULLYING her. Bad nurses are easily the worst killer in the game post nerf. There is such thing as a good juke or good survivor.
@@quotient9974 ay man been playing only nurse for like 2 months now, got her maxed but im still strugling with red ranks mindgames, especially on walls, got any tips you could share? Im not a newbie nurse by any means, but id still appreciate any advice.
Survivor:SpIrIt Is OvErPoWeReD
Also survivor:Runs in straight line and sits at pallets, not even trying to mindgame
fuck B it allows the spirit to mind game but you’re just sitting there so you either get hit or you’re in the same place as if you’d just dropped the pallet normally so it’s a neutral/lose situation which means you can’t win the “mind game” by just sitting at the pallet
@@fuckb4056 So is stand-still spirit one of HER mindgames?
@@kyukon2276 Sitting at a pallet is pretty much the only defense survivors have against any killer. Spirit counters that. How can they 'mindgame' without a pallet?
I see some entitled survivor one tricks in the thread
@@nasvsan6191 'entitled'
I watch both Scott and Tru3 and felt through Scotts video he almost purposefully misunderstood everything to make it seem dumb but... If you watch tru3 play vs spirit you understand that these tricks work.
RureLyther definitely. Especially at the first point. "If you go this exact direction when you could 'loop the spirit like usual' lmao"
Regardless of if these tricks work or not, Spirit still has no counterplay. Flipping a coin and guessing is not counterplay. Counterplay is reactionary in nature, and for a Spirit to break this dynamic all she has to do is cover a random option / options every time and all of a sudden it's a coin toss.
@@yScribblezHD What is moonwalking at mindgameable pallets though? You cant see them or trust the red glow so you have to guess which way they went. Your point feels null because every killer should be able to essentially flip a coin as you put it because they should be rewarded for guessing correctly and also feel scary to vs. You know because theyre a killer. As well counterplay is not reactionary in nature that would more like tactics and mechanical knowledge, counterplay is strategic in nature.
barraktu Moonwalking is nowhere near the same thing as flipping a coin. For one, the survivor still has information, but the killer is mind gaming the survivor by manipulating the way this information is presented (e.g. moving in the opposite direction of the glow). This is surely a killer MINDGAME, but I was referring to COUNTERPLAY.
barraktu Also, counterplay is most certainly reactionary in the way we refer to it in video games. Counterplay as we use it in video games refers to countering (hence the name) the option a player chooses, and always involves some information related to the situation. If in a fighting game I throw the first punch and it lands, I didn't counter them. Counterplay is also usually referring to a defensive option. The reason why this does not apply to spirit in the traditional sense is because she relays little to no information for you to counter. If she chooses the same a random option every time, then past experiences (the only information you gain from spirit) give you nothing of value.
By taking your advice too literal, Scott's video is basically pointless. I knew what you were talking about when you said the spirit is coming straight at you when you're on a pallet. How did Scott not understand that?
It's all about Views
I don’t think that Scott knew that it was just a general idea so that’s why he was critiquing every little thing that true said
And this is why the imbalance between survivors and killers will just grow more in favor of survivors.
yeahhh. I was watching his video and was kinda annoyed he took only one example from tru3 and borderline straw manned it when he could have easily understood what tru3 was saying. IMO spirit shouldn't get a nerf until keys and infinites and gens get a rework/adjustment. Spirit isn't fun? Neither are 4 man SWF on comms with coordinated builds using map offerings and keys with instaheals and kitted toolboxes. Same goes for Moris etc etc. "its not fun" isn't a good argument against killers like spirit or nurse when we have had gen speed as it is for sooooo long. I'd like a different spirit like how they changed Freddy. IMO, spirit is there for the stronger survivors. Not rank 10's who can't even fathom how rank 1 survivors end a match in less than three minutes.
@@lc7173 Insta heals are gone now.
I do love that you agreed with the fact that she needs a phasing indication. I think that is pretty much the issue with spirit.
When spirit gets nerfed ghostface here I come
@@fuckb4056 iridescent head huntress isnt skill its literally a free win
Been on ghost face since release lol I'm glad there's no heat on him rn... Cause if they really complained about him then it just shows survivors really are trash with a plan to nerf everything so it's easier for them
@@Oo_Ghostly_oO my only complaint is that knocking him out of his power is super inconsistent
*My time has come*
@@fuckb4056 nice troll. Obviously you've never been during one of his stream or even showing any interest of tru3. He's been on this game since the beginning fella. He has played every god damn killers, you can find tons of videos of any of them. And really, if you dont acknowleged that this man doesnt have any skill in this game, then go see others and compare.
I think the idea is sometimes people think survivors shouldn’t be caught? The game has to be killer sided they need to be catching survivors more than they aren’t. Survivors job is to distract while the rest of the team can get gens done
??? You’re saying that spirit is fine?
@@23-am38 Spirit is underpowered. She needs a buff imo
"no one uses spirits power in short bursts", and here i am, using addons for faster phase start and faster phase exit speed to great success, but heartbroken now.
I use these add ons too and sometimes use phasewalk in bursts.
You're not alone
What he means is against those top level survivors, the best phase is long range to cover more of the map. Short phases are only used when you can guarantee a hit.
Add-ons for faster activations are my favorite, it feels so bad having to wait like 3 second before you start moving...
Yeah I was the one who got him onto that subject, and was a bit confuzzled cause I use the recovery add on sometimes and activation time
I fought a spirit that used her power on bursts it made it hard to gain distance on her as she uaed her phase walk to close the distance every time
Reading that twitch chat was disgusting because of how offensive and one-sided some comments were
Just like being on a discussion on r/deadbydaylight
It's tru3's stream, the same would have been on scott's side. What did you expect really?
There was definitely some unnecessary shade leveled at Scott there, but I saw more than a few people either getting hostile with Tru3, or telling him he was being condescending, when he clearly wasn't. People just don't know what a civil discussion is anymore.
@@lordcrusader861 So just because of that people can't be civil and respectful? I now see that you're another one of those brainless redditors that resume everything to "He salty survivor main".
@@kiwa8830 cool.
I'm so glad you and Scott are both encouraging non-personal, healthy discussion. This is great for the community at large, as we're trying to be objective and academic instead of emotional and defensive. Praises all around for avoiding unnecessary drama, and I hope more of this type of healthy interaction can be had.
Exactly less toxicity in debates maybe their chats will follow because rn Scott’s are coming for true and name calling etc which is childish and the same can be said for tru3’s
Officer Zack they both don’t tbh which is what I’m saying I hope they keep the discussion civil and can ignore the negative comments who seem to want drama between them im happy it’s not a full blown argument or insults aren’t being thrown it allows the rest of the community to want to follow because their favourite streamers are doing the same kinda like otz’s chat
Officer Zack exactly it’s just up to them to ignore them I guess but it would always be nice if people weren’t like that
@@BOT-sy7sw Father Myers!
Meanwhile, the twitch chat being mature as always.
45:40 - funny thing is that this survivor threw down a pallet and then run through the loop into the way he came from. Like... WHY?
Not only he risks getting hit by Spirit walking into him since he goes literally hugging the wall but also, when u look at the power meter u can see that when Scott leaves the spirit world, he has NO CHARGE LEFT. That's just a mistake on survs part - if he's paid some attention then he would come to the conclusion that the Spirit's traveled distance is too high for her to go any further. Therefore the only thing he had to do was to throw down the pallet and run to another loop without going anywhere near her, he literally got himself downed for no reason.
That's a great example of True's tactic - if he did it in that moment then he wouldn't get hit at all.
I trhink you need to go up with more likes.
I also think that move wasn't smart but as a survivor you can't see the meter of the spirit right? Idk man and they say he is the best survivor
@@Acstasy @The Literals Yup, you can't see it while playing survivor.
You can, on the other hand, estimate the distance that Spirit can travel while phasing. Base phasing speed is 7 meters per second, phase time is 5 seconds max. Just by looking where the husk is, it's entirely possible to roughly tell where Spirit can and cannot reach with her phase walk. Looking at the example in the video I've mentioned, the survivor guy would get another 10 meters just by running forward after dropping the pallet so it was 100% clear that Scott can't phase that far, especially after having to walk around the pallet. Trying to go back was such a poor play, he literally went into lion's jaws.
Seems to me that Scott just wanted to look more legitimate with "the best survivor" bullshit. This guy may be a good player overall but he's nowhere near "the best in the world" level if I were to tell by this play.
i think arguments are healthy, but arguing points that weren't made irritates me so much. spend like 3 minutes talking about dropping pallets early (the play true said is better) then the rest of the video talking about NOT dropping pallets and showing why that doesn't work. Nobody he faced in his video dropped pallets early, not 1 single time.
Because he played against actually decent survivors who value the worth of pallets and still fucked them because he is a very good Spirit...
@@Wurstfinger-rl1zi I guess if they dropped the pallets and fucked the spirit over it's just a bad spirit then, yeah?
@@soleo2783 No, because dropping the pallet != fucking over the spirit lol
I know I’m very late so bear with me.
Although Dropping Pallets early can increase your chase time, you have to consider you are burning through non-renewable resources on the map.
Now the next person who gets chased is going to have zero pallets to throw down because of the Spirit’s “counterplay”
@@zarinasuperiority2376 Spirits tend to not break pallets, so they still will have a dropped pallet to play around.
I'd like to see you and Scott talk in a call civilly about this tbh. So there's no more misinterpreting you can both say what you mean
Kat is so cute smacking the keyboard in the background protecting True😂
@@fatalegg6359 she is supporting her boyfriend who said nothing wrong at all...
i really like this kind of civil balance discussion between 2 really good players, i hope scott responds
Dont know about 2 good players but yea it was civil. Shouldn't have been but tru3 is classy
Freddie M. it was civil but Scott was a bit passive aggressive and insulting the entire time
i wouldn’t say scott is a “really good player” when you see him pretending to phase but at the same time moving around.
Russell WestGOAT are you actually special, how much have you seen Scott play? He’s a killer main with like 4000 hours on killer and your saying he’s dog shit. Ok buddy, just because he’s trying to critique your favourite streamers ideas. That’s how good ideas are made by multiple people giving good input. Scott obviously didn’t spend a lot of time making this video and I see the condescending tone but he still bloody knows what he’s talking about, I’m sure he’d wipe the floor with you ;)
MoonnMan__ you’ve literally just said he isn’t a good player bc of 10 seconds of his 4000 killer hours.
Most of these comments are unnecessary animosity.
yup. I look at tru3's big comment with a reasonable argument then look below to see insults.
I was just thinking the same thing. The chat is being so rude for no reason.
@@BlankElnino The chat basically consists of bonobo fanbois who insult everyone who questions their lord and saviour
@Orion Neither do I know anymore what this comment section is about nor do I care lol
45:32 if he had used the technique you described in the beggining and dropped the pallet on the same side he came from he would’ve juked spirit so hard right here....
40:28 You're just guessing" Scott for some reason doesn't seem to understand that when you phase as spirit YOU are guessing where the survivor is going to
be as well. This is not a guessing game between one party both killer AND survivor have to guess where you are. There is no add on for spirit that allows her to see survivor auras while phasing. There is equal opportunity for both killer and survivor.
At this point i believe that his golf cap is actually part of his skull, attached to it like an extra limb
Wait but then how did it change color from white to grey?
@@Aristocat-123 ohhh makes sense
It seemed to me like Scott misunderstood your main concept, by thinking that the spirit starts her phase close to the pallet, where the arrow was. This mistake not only makes him bring up poor counter-arguments such as "bumping into them", it was very close-minded and didn't account for any of the many variables, such as distance, layout, open space, angle of approach etc.
He seems to also think that the survivors he plays against must be doing the optimal playstyle, so he can use his past games as reference... when the whole point of Tru3's example was to explain how 99% of survivors are making bad choices against the Spirit. Not enough players understand the concept of mindgames or conditioning. Also, getting stunned then breaking the pallet every time should be a guaranteed loss at high level of play, which is what should be under question.
He then started attacking the straw man for 20m by arguing against his own poor concept. He also seemed to laugh at times, as if his counter-plays to his own foolish scenario had any value against your initial point.
I do agree, attacking the stawman was very odd and easily see through. I'm suprised he did that.
indeed, looks like the people on his vid are pretty toxic too, supporting him by saying that tru3 is gonna respond in a toxic way and will be salty... etc, etc, its was bad.
Scott is a joke
I'm not sure why y'all are acting surprised? As if latching onto one piece of an argument and hyper-simplifying/misunderstanding it isn't a common strategy in "civil debate" :p
Remember when this game was just 'scary' hide and seek? xD
I still fuck my shit up with hag.
Bro Hag and Tombstone Myers and Ghostface still get me lmao
I miss all the potential the game had back then
The game never was that, we all just didn't know how to play yet.
@Caleb It's still scary for me after almost 2 years, so...
I think it's interesting how people on Reddit/UA-cam keep trying to say Tru3 is wrong when you literally just have to watch one of his streams to see he's right. If you can accurately and consistently predict what's going to happen in a game, and you use that information to win the game on a regular basis, you know what you're talking about. Can you imagine if people were this contrary in real life about a field like science or physics?
Tru3: Gravity is real and we can see it happen literally every time you drop something or jump or throw something.
Internet Trolls: No. You're wrong and that's stupid. Birds don't have gravity because they fly so obviously gravity doesn't exist.
Tru3: (Some counterpoint way more civil/respectful than these trolls deserve)
William Kuzia Tru3 going against bad spirits is not a good indication of her having good counter play
We call the people who do that in real life flat-earthers and antivaxers, respectively.
@@Soukl you cant just say every spirit player he uses these counters against is bad it's just not really much of an argument
Made Pandora well for one I didn’t say every spirit he goes against is bad and even I did why not? Similar to survivors, is it not possible for the killer to also be bad.
I think it's interesting that these two dbd streamers are trying to have a healthy discussion about a important topic in the game and you summed differing opinions as "He big internet troll".
Hey. I didn't watch the vid it's way too long and I prefer the gameplay BUT I came here to say that I tried one of Tru3 tips and spirit lost me. I usually like to do things my way but the situation and timing were perfect so I would be a proud idiot not to try. (The pallet drop in front) then I walked backward(20% faster thanks to my perk) and was able to go through a window and hide WAY before she appeared and sadly hit the air behind the pallet. That dude here is right his tip WORKED.
I think we’re all gonna wake up tomorrow to “my response to his response to my response to his response to my response to his response”
Real talk though, it’s great that this discussion is happening and it hasn’t devolved into a non constructive argument
Scott isn't going to respond to Tru3
When you said spirit is the “necessary evil” it summed spirit up perfectly. The game needs spirits to show that they can beat the best of the best. Without the spirit the game could be a bully simulator for the top players
That may be true and I assume you aren’t including nurse but realistically speaking you’re only going against those type of survivors once every 25 or so games
Rhysee7 well to be fair a good spirit with good headphones can beat fantastic survivors as well
Rhysee7 ok by that same logic survivor is also well designed since on average a good team of survivors can beat a fantastic killer.
@Rhysee7 the problem is that with spirit, no one is outplaying anyone with skill. its pure luck that is killer sided. thats why people dislike her. no one is arguing that there shouldnt be a strong killer in the game, there should. the reason people complain about spirit more than nurse is because there is counterplay to the nurse, even though she is mechanically better. there is no counter to spirit, you just run from her until u get unlucky. thats not countering.
@@samk4967 how is LUCK killer sided? That argument is shit. Also Spirit takes skill to play and to counterplay, how is that unbalanced?
i cant wait until part 5 of these going back and forth and the video ends up 3 hours long because the 1st Tru3 video was 10 min, then scotts is 20 and now we got a over 40min tru3 video. cant wait till these vids between these 2 exceed 2 hours
@@hip3rsnip3r78 I actually kind of like this, of 2 people of 2 different sides of a very big issue in the DBD community, 2 people who do know a lot about this game and have been playing for a ton of hours. show their reasoning and examples of their reasoning for their view on whether (for this topic anyways) spirit is balanced or not
Some people are just ignorant......I have 160 hours on survivor, made it to rank 1 yesterday and have always hovered around those ranks, always getting rank 1 killers with hundreds of hours on spirit. Watching Tru3's streams and videos if i miss a stream is the most helpful thing for this game, he's the only youtuber other than Otz who explains what hes doing and why or explains why certain things would work. Prior to finding tru3 i just assumed like most people spirit has no counter play, but it didn't take long of watching to realize just how much you can outplay spirit, i looped a good spirit yesterday for 3 whole minutes, while injured, with no iron will, running from loop to loop, pallet mind games, quick and quiet window vaults, all used, all things tru3 mentions you can use to out play and mindgame the spirit. People just think "oh she can go invis and hear you, you are fucked no matter what" but its not true, not even close to true and Tru3 (i've said true a lot god damn) proves it time and time again that there is plenty of counter play and mindgames you can pull. Sure shes very strong, but strong isnt always bad and it doesn't mean impossible.
When he says “run into each other” at the beginning, he is not talking exclusively about them actually colliding, which is a point he made early on the first time he said it. Every time he says it from then on, that explanation of them being nearby and so you can hear their breathing footsteps because they are next yo each other is applied to the statement “they will just run into each other”
Rational Commentary “he” in my post is referring back to Scott’s argument.
We are in agreement
Except tru did acknowledge hearing survivor breathing and footsteps he said if they drop the pallet theres the big boom of the pallet dropping you arent going to immediately be able to pick up on some breathing after such a loud noise ... ?
OswinOsgood which would be a good argument if a pallet explosion actually happens when the spirit is facing towards the pallet
@@Wisdomseyes1 they still make a loud noise when dropped or are you saying pallet drops are completely silent?
OswinOsgood im saying its a thud, not an explosion, and therefore doesnt last 5 seconds as is implied in the video.
Its also not that hard to hear. I feel like true is assuming that average people “dont hear as well as he does” but i promise you scotts argument that you can hear the survivors is completely valid.
Survivor mains are entitled, change my mind.
Go to a locker.
which came first, the entitled survivor or the entitled killer?
@@otherguyjo1684 entitled Survivors 100%. They're the ones that come up with special rules that killers have to follow or else they'll just DC.
OtherGuy Jo technically the entitled survivor considering early dbd was so one sided for them yet they said it was balanced
zachattack I could argue that the latter came first. I can only speak for myself in this situation: When I started playing survivor, I was a potato and killers just saw me as easy points. But when I became good (knowing how to juke, capitalize jungle gyms and other terrain, flashlight saves and standard pallet/window blinds, mindgames etc) that's when killers became vengeful and started sending me hate mail. They called me toxic, but why? For being a good survivor?
"You can't get in someone's head if you're on the ground in two hits in a fighting game!"
Someone hasn't heard of Dive Kick.
I've watched both of you from the early days. You since injustice and scott since dark souls. He uses his normal amount of "absolutes" in his video. Your varying perspectives are great since it furthers the discussion in a game I love. I don't agree with his video as it is less of a discussion and more of a blatant bashing of a type of playstyle. His other video explaining why people have such a unfun time playing against the spirit is great and mostly is the root of the problem because she doesn't provide consistent feedback like other killers do. It's kind of like when NRS games introduce a new fighter and they are instantly labled OP because of the curve people have to go through learning to counter the Spirit. Scott is essentialy saying Spirit is uncounterable. His viewpoint is going to be extremely more popular since it is better to convince people that the problem is with the game as oppossed to with themselves. I appreciate the video and if Scott counters again I hope he includes outside the box methods with countering the Spirit instead of just saying "nope this is wrong and here's why."
It is all opinions people remember that , don't go to Scott or Tru3 and divide the playerbase. Noone is correct here and anyone parading that they have the answers is part of the problem and not the solution.
Yeah, it seemed like he was just idea sniping to say 'Spirit's OP and has no counterplay so all you can do is run.'
So he's basically using the "if you counter the spirit, it's a bad spirit player" argument. Gotta love the mental gymnastics!
Well yeah, a good Spirit doesn't leave room for any counterplay which is where this whole 'there's no countering a good Spirit' argument comes from.
Didnt know some thing being balanced was based on someone who just started playing the game
@@bophadesknutz7798 Welcome to DBD
@@Underground3 Bro this is literally any multiplayer game that Ive played for the past 4 years.
"scott is such a dummy, he thinks he is the god of the game" the hypocrisy in the chat is unreal
I think we can all agree that big DBD streamers are atleast a little full of themselves. I like that Scott has moved away from speaking about balance and things as if his word is fact, and has started stating that he is speaking subjectively from his experiences with the game
Personally, I think the spirit has some counterplay, just not enough. Whenever I go against a spirit, as a spirit main myself mind you, I dont feel like I'm outplaying her or making smart reads, I feel like I'm making blind guesses. I'm trying to predict the spirit, and thinking "what would I do", but it simply doesnt feel like I'm reading her because of how much information she has in comparison to you. I think that she could use a slight nerf. And when I say slight, I mean slight. Just some sort of little change that would make it so you have more feedback on what shes doing as a survivor. I want her to maintain her strength and viability but I think she needs a little bit more counterplay to be fair. There are definitely things you can do that would mess up the spirit and prolong your life, but those counters are too iffy and rely a but too heavily on guesswork imo.
the killer should always have the upper hand in a chase u should mind that aswell
40:00 "You aren't going to have time to react if they are a good spirit" again which has nothing to do with spirit and everything to do with skill of the player as killer. If you can't react in time than he is better than you plain and simple.
Spirit has counter play. Counter play does not equate to looping for 5 gens and escaping. The game is a 1v4, not 1v1. Yes, make some kind of semi-subtle indicator for when she's phasing on all skins. Yes, feel free to rework Prayer Beads.
Some people don't do well with different challenges, so they want it removed to accommodate them. Some people are just stupid. You can't argue with stupid.
this. This this this this this this this. Survivors are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL TO THE KILLER.
No Counter play here means no matter what u do you would still get fucked. Sure killers can be countered even in simple ways like going into sharps corners when facing an Oni or just leaving the loop when trapper places a trap and there's still chance for both sides to make plays.
With spirits u tend to find urself with little to no options.
None of this made any sense to me. Don't drop the pallet and mind game it to juke and prolong chases because Spirit can break pallets? It fucks over your whole team to drop pallets, so only other players are allowed to use pallets? Don't walk vs Spirit to juke them because Spirit is fast and can't be juked in Phasewalk? You can't condition someone until you've spent a long time observing and analyzing them? The conditioning starts as soon as the answer to the 1st mind-game is seen. His whole video seemed to be: 'You can't mind-game Spirit because Spirit is OP, so just run.'
32:46 As a clown main, i wish i was this lucky with matchmaking to get survivors that simply don't repair gens.
This guy is really blessed by the entity, i guess.
Time to listen to Tru3analysis!!
15:00 Exactly how I play at high ranks. I can tell immediately: "It'll take forever to catch this survivor." I will avoid that person until they try something like a body block or a save.
I know man because I play that side too.
After hearing both analysis, I understand them but IMO there are points that were not considered, BTW I'm not dissing tru3 or Scott, both have some valid points however there are things that still make me scratch my head...
1. Tru3's tactic relies on that the spirit is phasing then you drop the pallet then walk in other direction, knowing fully that she is doing that, but what if spirit is faking when she stops? That's very situational, many things have to happen and then the strat will work. So you run away, she stays still but she doesn't phase then she sees you putting down the pallet, you walk and then she catches you with her power. As long as you are in her terror radius you won't hear the phasing sound and you have to be inside terror radius and also assume the pallet you want to use is within that distance.
2. Add-ons are everything, what if she has charging add-ons, mother's ring, yakuyoke, prayer, speed addons? That will change everything. If she has the green charging and mother's ring she will catch you before putting down the pallet assuming you get to the pallet on time.
3. Also assuming spirit doesn't have brutal, spirit fury, enduring she won't care about the pallet at all if she has. With stridor she will hear you all the time. Any killer has their own builds, some off meta, some meta, so chances are 50%
4. Yes, one long chase can cost 3 gens IF/ASSUMING 3 survivors are repairing at the same time, knowing that one is being chase, if they don't, the killer will come back.
5. Also survivor perks can play a key roll in the mindgame. Let's go back to tru3's fuck head as he says. Spirit is phasing, you drop the pallet, you walk away, and then she goes to another direction. What if the survivor has dance with me, lithe, quick & quiet combo? Again, she uses her power, you get to pallet, drop it but instead of walking away, you fast vault it with the 3 perks ready to proc.
6. I get that tru3 analysis is focused on high level players but it means that we expect that all of them will stick to the gen and the killer only chases one guy in a long chase, that won't happen all the time. If smart the killer will realize and change their plan.
7. Wasting pallets is not a thing? So i can drop the killer shack pallet in mid chase like that just because and then what? I taking away one resource that the rest of the team might need in a given scenario.
To end, I respect tru3 and scott's point of view but everything is so situational, there are lots of variables that can affect the overall game.
I would be able to take this guy more seriously if he didnt misquote 80% of what you said. And in addition, he dealt only in absolutes. He didn't account for nearly zero variables. he knows the game, clearly. But for this video, he didnt rebuttal your points. Or at least did not articulate it very well.
I know TrU3Ta1ent wants to keep this civil but when TrU3Ta1ent said “So you gonna break it and go to another loop and break it and go to another loop and 4 gens will be done. If that actually worked wouldn’t it work with every killer? Just use brutal strength and a 115% killer because if spirit is 110% then it shouldn’t it be stronger with a 115% killer?”
I started dying of laughter that was hilarious how he immediately shut down that logic
I agree with TrU3Ta1ent when thinking about balance look at the highest level of survivors because everything is broken and unbalanced to a person new at the game
Rational Commentary that may be true (pun intended) but you can’t deny that he does consistently juke spirits plus he plays at red ranks. The majority can’t speak for every single person. I agree with the statement that she needs tweaking but not a full on nerf. Just minor changes would be great. Plus spirit actually requires some skill because if she didn’t require any than any person can play spirit and win which isn’t true because even at not red ranks (I play at purple) some spirits are just not good at all so it does require some mind gaming on the spirits part. The only spirits I hate are prayer beads as most of the time I avoid getting in chases if it’s spirit.
I don't get the guy's point..You just tried to help
That guy is just criticising everything he could, makes my brain hurt listening to him
@@AbuBakar-hg8rw :))) mine too
CK Khoo Thats. The. Point. Of. A. Debate.
@@nikkiahrens7657 Not much of a debate if you strawman the opposition's point.
@@mach7978 Apparently u didn't watch the video when he presented a scenario in which true didn't even support.
The comments in the twitch chat told me enough about this community to decide that I never want to be a part of it...
Was watching this in the stream earlier today, glad to see the civil response and critique of his points since as you say some are genuinely valid while others were literally just strawmen against things you never even mention lol. Either way discussion is a good thing and while Spirits nerf won’t get changed, hopefully even a few people will have their eyes opened before it goes out.
9:11 "Yes. And what happens?" loooooool 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
I am surprised most people are debating the "skills and time they have in the game" and are very negative to Scott. I am disappointed. They have different play styles and opinions ok. DIFFERENT PLAY STYLES!
He is optimal with pallets and helps his team with the different ways a match could go. Tru is thinking about ways to win. Which is fine as I said different play styles
@@PistolSlinginMothMan I'm glad you won't be all negative and won't take an opinion to a debate of "right and wrong".
The fact that there's even a debate going on is great for the game and the community.
you could invite him to an voice chat discussion! like via discord or something that would make it more interactive and easier to discuss :D also would probably be really interesting for both of your communitys :D
I love the idea but that would never happen
Eeeh the way chats are biased it might turn into a shit show. Not because of Tru3 or Scott, but chat is deadly.
Scott is so naive about fighting games, sure he does not know Sol mr nice guy, 2 reads and game over
I'm gonna say right now that both fanbases are quickly gonna shit on each other untill this debate ends
@UC2CFq6SyX-qXyr8LnuNKN6w same here, just watching the shitshow imao
Or both fanbases could (read: should) instead respectfully disagree with the other and continue a healthy debate so as to better understand the other's arguments the game.
Wishful thinking nowadays, I guess.
@@CodyRockLee13 honestly I wished that people would have been civil but thats asking too much especially on the internet when they can act like idiots with no repercussions
Lord Haari yeah it would be nice for the game community to be mainly civil but it really isn’t tbh most people are toxic it’s the basis of the community . I’m waiting for the day killers go on strike or start dcing against stuff themselves if the game becomes to unfair or spirit becomes bad. Just to see the devs reactions and watch the game die lmao. It has potential which is VERY obvious and they are at a stage where it is the on game at a decent stage like it. So they could take advantage of it and put more stuff to balance the game/make it more fun and then advertise the game more but they don’t. If they played e game at a high level themselves they wouldn’t be relying on the player base and could be making educated decisions based on what the people who play the game in the group of devs think. Rn they’re just choosing to listen to 1 side (mostly) and the other when they become loud and outraged about something. Btw sorry for the long comment to something so simple lmao
@@BOT-sy7sw I feel sad that the normal people who like us who just want to enjoy the game but too much toxicity in the majority of the fanbase
Good video. Did you see that Spirit's dad is now possibly going to be a killer lol
Need to 4K to guarantee pip.
@@xarmchia7750 This makes no sense to the above comment and I hate and at the same time love you for the discord
Shane yea he was the real killer lol spirit was the victim... and plague always confused me she was actually trying to help people in her past life so why is she a killer?
@@redd-iveee4400 that confused me as well. Why did the plague become a killer despite having faith in her gods? And why did the entity pick the spirit rather than her father who killed the whole family vs a daughter who wanted revenge on just the father and not others?
@@elsinernixan7539 Damn wait, I was certain I replied to a comment asking why true never gives hatch anymore... Im blaming UA-cam for this one!
This guy took everything you said and just misunderstood completely.
For views :D else he needs a brain fix
The problem with Spirit is that her counterplay is unreliable and based on guesswork. There's no foolproof way to avoid taking a hit from her when she uses her power.
When you're playing against Hillbilly, you can avoid being hit by his chainsaw if you focus on breaking line of sight with him and force him to make lots of tight turns. He'll probably still get you eventually, since Bloodlust will come into play, but you can extend the chase time quite a bit if you know what you're doing.
When you play against Huntress, it's a similar story. If you break line of sight with her (Or if you're in an open area, don't run in a straight line), you can dodge a lot of her hatchet throws and extend the chase time significantly.
But against Spirit, there's no surefire way to avoid taking a hit when she phases. If you equip Iron Will, Spine Chill and Fixated, then create a misleading trail of scratch marks for her to follow, there's still no guarantee that you won't take a hit. The Spirit might bump into you while phasing, or predict the trick, or hear your footsteps, or hear your breathing with Stridor, or make a lucky guess, or just do a fake-out that can't be detected with Spine Chill. No matter how much you try to outplay her, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway.
At this rate, people will criticize what you eat for breakfast, True. You just can't get a break!
Hey welp, i have a really good counter argument to scott saying "it's not MK you dont have the time to do conditionning" well, let's assume we're talking about top level games, top level means probably swf, swf = 2hit per survivor to go down, 8xhits = 1 hook per surv ; potentially 16 maybe 24 hits, do you see where i'm going ? Hmmm what if swf tried communicating on chase habits of the opposite spirit ? And use the power of team communication to figure out the patterns in the opposite killer ? As you always say this game is a 4v1 not a 1v1. Also I play melee competitively and it's not unusual that you need just 4 good openings to win a game, same for DBFZ, same for SkullGirlz etc.. yes the 1st surv who's being chased is in a bad situation because he has to make a read based on nothing but in a 4v1, the 4 units should react/adapt to what the 1 is doing not the opposite, otherwise its not fairly balanced but that's on other topic. That one surv did not waste a pallet, even if we went down in 15sec, every interaction is an important information. a killer should always win the 1v1 because he usually has to manage a 4v1 situation it's just plain logic..
the reason people dont like trues logic is because he bases all his points on his own games he gets on stream. He pretty much exclusively faces stream snipers and high level swf. His games are probably the furthest you are going to get from a normal game. For his games, spirit probably is balanced, but for every solo que survivour she is op. it is unrealistic to think that every game is going to go by in 260 seconds or whatever when you are facing 4 solo survivours. they just dont.
Sam K He doesn’t base it on his own games alone. Top level play is what he basis it on. That’s how it should be. No game balances around it’s lower level player base. That would be a busted game, which is where dbd is heading if they keep nerfing viable killers.
@@samk4967 yeah well get good then lol, isnt that the point ? Getting better to beat the strong 1 unit ?
@@PrimoHydra its not about balancing it for bad players. Its about balancing it for solo players who make up the majority of the player base. The majority of teams don't have comms, don't bring keys, don't bring brand new part, don't all have ds etc etc. The majority of teams are just playing the game to their best potential as a solo que survivor. Saying that the game should be balanced for the top 5% of survivours by putting in a braindead, no skill, luck based killer like spirit is dumb. I play both sides equally and have played my fair share of spirit. Do we need a strong killer for high rank, swf key games? Yes. How many games are actually like that? About 1 in 50 unless you're True.
Sam K With the current state of the game, u don’t even need a SWF to beat a really good spirit. U just need a solid squad. Secondly, ur saying nerf spirit and have those top survivors be unbeatable. That’s ridiculous. Finally, spirit does have counter play, it’s been shown time and time again. What is brain dead is looping m1 killers around god loops.
This is honestly like watching a mini episode of Every Frame A Pause. You've got strawmen galore, taking the absolute worst possible interpretation of True's idea, arguing about a subject without proper understanding of the issue, and even the classic "guy includes footage in his video that directly counters his own points".
He was nice enough in the video but if you're going to make a critique/response video to somebody you should at least understand what they are actually arguing
His condescending and passive aggresive tone make it even worse
Sooo, Scott Jund is saying that his idea with the pallet drops doesn't even remotely works. I can remember that tru3 did the exact same thing a few days ago in one of his videos. It was on the map of the plague in a jungle gym. Tru3 gives real evidence to his theses. He is not like some imbecile making things up, crying for attention or drama. Rly makes no sense to me that some people are so adament against him, but whatever. And omg, Scott is truly a simple mind. One must love 1 dimensional thought processes.
That’s the point he has actual in game examples to bolster his points not a mocked up 1v1 to try to discredit someone.
Cao Pi no need to be rude to scott when they’re trying to have a civil debate
@@Sarahsqueak not that I'm justifying being rude to Scott (love his content), but are you also defending Tru3 over on Scott's video where like 70% of his fanbase is doing nothing to add to the discussion and instead are just dick riding and calling Tru3 names as well?
@@Sarahsqueak I wasn't rude to him. I would be rude if I would call him an idiot or vermin, but I didn't. The only word, which is an insult in my text is imbecile, which wasn't directed at Scott, but some imaginary youtuber, who just is meh. The 1 dimensional part is not an insult (for me atleast), but a way to categorize humans (also for me). I called him 1 dimensional, because he simply isn't thinking that far (example: His "counter" to Tru3's idea to drop the pallet early was that they run into each other, because Scott uses Tru3's picture at face value). He just views one variable, while Tru3 thinks in many more (Tru3 also explained that). I simple called out the fact, that Scott wasn't thinking critically enough. But you are right, that this is a civil debate and I think that this is nice for a change.
William Tomasichi I’m not defending either, both have rude mindless insults.
Both you and Scott are being reasonable about this but unfortunately the whole spirit situation itself includes a lot of overzealous weirdos that treat this like some sort of ideological world war on both sides. Comment section both here and on his video have a ton of absolutely garbage crybaby/ad hominem comments lmao.
The clips he’s using to counter your argument are literally STARTING from the power position you’re specifically negating by slamming the pallet down as an initiation
I knew true would take scotts video to heart, but I was not expecting a 48 minuet video
GeorgeBucketHat but why are you trying to make it into drama it’s a NON-PERSONAL debate of course directed at each other to see the other persons points but I don’t think either of them meant it toxicly it’s a response and he’s responding as how he feels is according same with Scott
HiP3R SniP3R exactly, only one causing drama here is Michael Myers which doesn’t surprise me, damn it Michael
Pistol Timb no what I said was about the length of the video, not the content of the discussion
GeorgeBucketHat but it was a discussion not “taking it to heart” that’s what irritated me they are debating tru3 did a 10 min vid, Scott did a 20min vid as a response which he is right to do and so tru3 responded back the length of the video doesn’t imply anything just let them debate. Then you want to say I’m causing drama lmao when I was stating that what you said was unnecessary
Michael Myers you’re causing all types of drama here Michael, if this is the case and we’re all aloud to discuss our opinions here I think that true talent making a 48 minuet video is over the top. What are you gonna do about it Michael Myers ? Hmm?
To be fair, if the chase against Zubat took 34 seconds average, you also have to look at the time it takes the survivors to unhook + heal. You tend to look at the situation of: The game just started, all 4 survs are on gens. If they don't heal, they still need 5-10 seconds to unhook, and the next chase against them will be alot quicker because they are injured already.
Great video TrU3 as usual, keep up the great work💖
Every time I play spirit in the past two months the team just gives up... Before that I had normal games, some win some loose.
I kinda think that the whole "Spirit has no counter play" Seems new and if you don't try and get better then that's like saying.
"I keep running into trapper traps, there is no counter play please nerf".
It is new and I predicted it
A year later...
People don't like opinions because opinions are offensive, but I'll stick with tru3's logic it's helped me with beating spirits some times making them rage quit. Spirit is able to be outplayed but you have to think it about it. The higher ranks isn't a m1 brainless game. It's why people played nurse and now spirit. Survivors who can't think for themselves are the ones who die constantly because they want a brainless m1 killer.
Sadly she most likely will get nerfed no matter what we do
cos shes op
Sam K nah. She’s just really good. You can’t just loop her like your average M1 wraith
@@samk4967 no survivours just cant play against killers they cant loop
MCKOOKIE I’ve both countered and have been countered as spirit. (Rank 4)
@@OUSTET i did too
I don't know what Scott is talking about. I have gotten better at versing Spirit by watching Tru. Everything Tru is saying works
I saw this yesterday and I was just waiting for Tru3 to make this eheheheh.
I have to say this was great to watch. If this happened more, the game would be heading in such a great path.
You brought up a lot of great points, and yes people need to realise that it IS a 1v4, and that isnt even accounting for the killer having ruin, Gens can go even faster.
I hope i see more videos like this, not only from you, but from others as well.
I'd LOVE to see this Scott guy play against teams that Tru3 regularly goes up against trying to go through every pallet and break every pallet.
The crazy teams we get breaking every pallet would end in a 1 kill if not 0 kill game
2:24 this was one of the first (of many) things that irritated me about Scott's commentary: clearly, you did not intend to say "walk into the spirit", you were just communicating "walk away from the pallet without having gone through it" - such a small, obvious mistake, but people are so opportunistic in arguments.
Doesn’t matter now, BHVR posted a picture of a katana in what looks to be a Japanese shrine. The spirit nerf is coming...
i doubt its a nerf just a change. They'll probably change how she phases overall
okay, i guess They need to give her a vault animating and remove passive phasing while in a chase.
@@okayiguess5156 Yea Nurse was also "changed" not nerfed ... those developers can't make balanced game simply because they balance round rank 10-20 where no one knows what he is doing.
Instead of changing spirit and nurse, couldn't they have just buffed the other killers and got rid or omega blink and prayer beads? Or at least changed the add ons instead?
It might be. But we still don’t know
I'm convinced that the only people who want The Spirit nerfed are entitled survivor mains. People say that this guy Scott plays killer, but how much killer are you actually playing where you think that breaking every/almost single pallet while chasing one survivor will result in only two gens done? Are you a yellow ranked killer? You must be if you think that.
He goes against Green Ranks....
Jesus your chat is hella toxic when Scott was just trying to give constructive criticism. Easy to pile on someone while you ride the bandwagon.
The bandwagon is to nerf spirit man. But yeah we try to mod the chat as best we can and tbh we have one if the best moderated chats on dbd. When differing opinions happen on dbd the community gets it's most toxic and our chat was very tame to what others would have been.
@@TrU3Ta1ent I understand your point but I saw a lot of things that were just too unnecessary to be considered tame in your chat against Scott. Yeah DBD is toxic in of itself but you try to better the community and a good place to start is bettering your own. Others chats are worse, I 100% agree but it doesn't make it yours not toxic.
@@Pahjuju There are two differences:
1: tru3 was live, and was reading these things or at least his moderators were during the moment and had no issues with it. Of course tru3 said and wanted it to be all in good faith but things were still said and let slide live.
2: tru3 is the self acclaimed fighter of toxicity on DBD, he says people snipe him due this reason because he wants the game to be a better place when it's the same in his own chat. Now I dont know much about Scott but I did see some things in his comment section, the difference being that Scott isnt trying to fight toxicity. Does that make what happened in Scott's comment section acceptable? No, however from what I saw from Scott's own video he was very constructive and maybe the worst thing he said were quips of "how this wont work at all". tru3 was somewhat mocking Scott thus laying out the foundation of what people had to say negatively.
So what? Keep crying little bitch grow a pair it's just a chat and it was not even toxic lol just because u don't agree with tru3. Ofcs everyone was moking Scott he didn't even took seriously tru3 advice/video
I prefer Scott because he isn't a manchild who cannot handle constructive criticism
When has tru3 shown manchild mannerisms?
Relaxing in the evening watching Tru3 is the best :)
The person doing a critique on you didn't think it through. In your first drawing, where you suggest that the survivor moves right and down, you should've said that the survivor could've walked elsewhere. All 3 of these videos on counterspirit and critique are excellent btw
The argument isn’t that spirit is too strong, that’s a straw man argument. Aids
The argument is that she is unfair and unfun. This isn’t a competitive setting
It seems to me that he has his mind set already on how the spirit is over performing or "OP" and his thought process is only set to 1v1. Not for nothing but im sure that majority of people are just jumping on the i hate spirit band wagon and not legitimately using their own brain or skills to vs the spirit. They go into matches saying 'spirit op no point in trying' *DC* and that is their justification on DCing and agreeing with people who play a significant role in the DBD community that are narrow minded. While i recognize there does need to be some tweaking done to spirit, these people aim to destroy so they can continue to not have to think while playing survivor. I dont think thats exactly fair either. I think survivors should feel some of the same pressure killers face tbh.
@@Pahjuju agreed!
If only the rest of the DBD community could have civil debates/discussions like this.
I find it really tough to understand anything when you just talk over Scott constantly. It doesn’t seem like you’re actually listening to what he says, merely looking for little quirks in language and semantics to latch onto. It just creates a very confusing mess of me trying to understand what you’re saying and what point you’re disagreeing with
Rhysee7 even still it’s a little off. It’s not like tru3 is really listening to Scott either, he’s just latching onto his word choice and talking over Scott’s actual points so he doesn’t have to address it. I’m sure it’s completely unintentional, but it looks very unprofessional and like he’s dodging the point. It very much looks like tru3 is just deflecting and trying to save face. It’s him saying “no, I wasn’t showing how to counter spirit, just how someone could potentially maybe once in a million scenarios have a chance to make the right play if the spirit doesn’t move a certain way. Not much of a counter, just a weak backing down from any real discussion
Rhysee7 that’s my point, that it wasn’t intentional but still happened. This isn’t something that should’ve been covered on stream with constant distractions, he should’ve dedicated his full attention to it at some point to come up with a proper argument. I’m not saying I absolutely disagree with Tru3, just that I can’t follow his argument in this format. I’d be very interested in seeing a proper debate or discussion between these two to get both sides of the story, but if I can only properly understand Scott that only gives me half the argument. I can’t watch an almost hour long video repeatedly to make sure I properly understand what he’s saying, most of us simply don’t have the time for that
I feel like the main issue with spirit isn’t necessarily the lack of counterplay but the fact the counterplay is so complicated. The fact that the way to beat a killer is exclusively to blindly mindgame and gamble isn’t good game design
I feel like, in terms of W/L ratio at Rank-1, Spirit is perfectly balanced. Needless to say, she can feel very frustrating to verse sometimes.
My main frustration is the pure lack of skill and intelligence she takes to play effectively; I’m an experienced Red-rank, mid-high tier killer player and I find that she is incredibly easy to play to the point I almost feel bad.
To elaborate, it’s too easy to track down injured people and collision if heavily in favour of her and the stand still mindgame (yes, I agree that it’s a mindgame) is waaay too in favour of the Spirit.
Ideally, I’d want the Spirit to receive some reworks but still maintain the same W/L in high ranks cuz survivor is way too easy as it is. Here are a few ideas of my own:
1) When the Spirit stands still for 1 second, over the half a second following, survivors begin to disappear. However, the amplitude of an uninjured survivor’s breathing increases by 30% and the sound of notifications and gen sound decreased by 70%. Survivors’ oral sounds are omnidirectional, hence excluding grass shuffling.
2) After standing still for 1.5 seconds and beginning to move, the Spirit will have charged up haste and move from 120% to 110%, decreasing uniformly over 1 second. (If the Spirit stood still for say 0.75 seconds, she would move from 115% to 110% over 1 second.)
3) Collision is no longer a thing, but when the Spirit passes through a survivor, the survivor quietly gasps so both player can hear it and hence both can react to it. What an easy fix to such a glaring problem.
4) During phasing in general, survivors’ oral audio is omnidirectional. This can be changed to directional through the, obviously, reworked Prayer Beads.
5) The Spirit can use her power more often.
I understand that the first two suggestions are a handful to read but I believe it could be a really interesting dynamic. Hopefully these changes would make her less frustrating but just as effective.
*Anyone is free to reply and leave their opinion, but think about what you say before you say it.*
This is interesting, when you say omnidirectional you mean it’s like sorta stereo sound? And louder for uninjured?
Xarm Chia By omnidirectional, I mean you can’t distinguish the direction of the sound. The point in this is so the Spirit still has evidence that the survivor is in the general vicinity, but cannot mindlessly follow the sound.
I don’t think she would be as effective as she is now, in any sort of way.
Iacopo Giovanelli Perhaps some small tweaks to the ideas + minor buffs/QOL improvements on her part would ensure her W/L stays constant.
Ben W talking about the “omnidiretional sound” thing, if that gets implemented than spirit is surely going to lose more frequently. While phasing you have no way to hear and understand the position of a survivor if you’re not hearing their breaths/moans, just hearing their footsteps is not relayable. There’s tons of situations in which survivor footsteps are silent (or almost), for example when a survivor walks where there’s short or enexistent grass, particularly if you’re phasing.
23:10 I think you hit the nail on the head and a lot of people don't seem to realize. You balance for top level which makes the skill ceiling higher meaning you feel more accomplished when you actually climb the ladder. If everyone who plays their favorite killer feels like theres no point if im not playing nurse then other killers need to step it up a bit.
I found the solution, become the pallet... Boom...
You clearly have the big idea here lol
I tried out your tips for the first time today and they worked PERFECTLY! I actually have fun in Spirit games now, thank you so much!
True looks so weird without his headset
I'd love to see debates like this live. Handled as a real debate, with a moderator
"the spirit can use her power is short bursts to recover quickly" yeah if you're an idiot that stays in the loops. You need to always run away and gain distance from her any chance you get and she'll use her power to catch up and it'll take time to recharge and at that point she's a normal killer until she gets her power back
@@supergamingcanalsecundar3049 not all spirits run the same add ons tho. But regardless, if you stay around a pallet thinking you can loop her or mind game her like a normal killer, you're Gonna get your cheeks clapped. I say spirit is one of the best killer who capitalizes on Survivors mistakes the best.
@@supergamingcanalsecundar3049 Underrated combo. That shit absolutely broken. Countered only by unmindgameable windows, which are spirits weakness anyway. That and Prayer Beads could use a nerf, for sure.
First 5 minutes I have gathered 2 inferences.
1. Tru3 is talking general theory and Scott is talking specifics. Scott is not critiquing the theory. He is critiquing the example.
2. The survivor strat is to loop and drop pallet. This doesn’t work on spirit because of phase/ fake phase. Since this strat works on all killers except Nurse and Spirit. It’s not fun/fair to the survivors.
I agree with Tru3 on this. I see many survivors complaining about only play against a few killers at high ranks. This is why; because you want all killers to fall into the loop>palette drop>repeat strat.
I’d love to see a video of True playing against 4 of himself, or the skill equivalent. Without the use of OP stuff like keys. It’d be a sweaty event but hella entertaining. I’d wager it’d be survivor favoured though.
I swear to god, if people played fighting games, they would understand what tru3 is on about from the get go. Blows my mind how people cant understand basic mindgames logic
@Rhysee7 yeap, fighting games are kinda hard to get in if you never played or have some one to explain you the basics.. but once you start playing you realize its not only mashing buttons and jumping around, you HAVE to condition your opponent or else you are fucked (obs if you are playing vs a good player, if you are not then its w/e you can play with your food lmao)
Unfortunately I like playing fighting games but can never remember combos because I panic so I suck at the games
This didnt age well 😥
"Im trying to keep killer where they can beat any team" Tbh that is problematic to me. I'm assuming he means killers can 4K any team because most killers wouldn't consider 2 kills and 2 escapes to be winning, even though that is logically where the game should be balanced. But if we are talking about the best players in the game, four amazing survivors should be able to shit on an amazing killer. The odds of actually getting four decent survivors in one lobby is already so minuscule because the majority of people at rank one are still potatoes, but the entire community is not rank one. The majority of players are below rank 10 and killer dominates in low ranks already, if they were to buff killers to the point where they could kill any team of even the best survivors, low ranks would be horrendous. It is already a slaughter for new players and nobody would continue playing dbd if you got beat by the killer in your first minute of every match while youre trying to learn the game. People only consider the balance of the game at rank one, and I do believe that in high skill games killers could use a buff, but in low ranks the game is drastically killer favored already and any changes would make the game unplayable for people trying to learn the game.
If someone is at the highest possible skill with Trapper, but has a 0% chance to win against a skilled 4 man swf, that is a problem. We want the killers to at least have the potential to win with enough skill. That's what Tru3 meant...