I felt like the ghoul with the bone shield talent combined with the faerie dragon was working really well. This is a cheap tank with both armored and resist which will also heal itself, and then it's got a flying guy for support. That lead me to the bog beast which is already resistant and the living wood talent to give it armored (for half health). It's a cheaper way to get out a tank with both methods of defense. It didn't feel like it was as strong. The ghoul + faerie dragon seemed to do much better than I could do with the same 5 cost with that bog beast. Not done trying out stuff yet though!
I actually picked up all the root talents and they're surprisingly strong as a comp. In PvP I'd just stall out the enemy eternally with various roots and Lightning Rod until I got a giant ball of healing that walked over the enemy. They couldn't stop it very effectively because everything they placed would just get stuck in place for so long.
@@PaulSyd Sure. Take it with a grain of salt though - I threw it together and it just worked, carrying me to ~3100 before I got hard locked against people with a 2-3 level advantage over my new minis. It could be a fluke due to people not knowing the match yet or just a string of good matches. Cenarius - Wild Growth Earth and Moon - Moonfury Bog Beast - Rampant Growth Ancient of War - Lightning Rod Harvest Golem - Unstable Core Frostwolf Shaman - Earth Shield Darkspear Troll - Big Bad Voodoo 2 win cons I found. First is to use bog beast and shaman to get the classic armor/resist combo rolling. Drop an Cenarius nearby for the extra healing and a 4 cost ancient of war on the opposite side to stop enemy spells, then cycle the rest to try to drop the same combo, either stacking it or in a lane that will meet up with the first drop. With spells being drawn away and the massive healing/tanking it's easy for the pack to live long enough to add another bog beasts and a 2nd or 3rd healer, at which point it's really hard to stop without specific counters. Against heavy unbound comps it's good to drop a few mini's by the ancient to clear them as they get pulled in. I've seen the ball eat multiple spells without any of the mini's dying due to the massive healing and high resist across the board. This doesn't always work though, usually because the enemy is a higher level or packing execute, a great counter to the deathball. I've still managed to win a couple games anyway due to switching to a stalling strategy. Between the global root, the Bog Beast root, Harvest Golem stuns, and the Earth and Moon root you can keep enemies from closing on your base, poke them down with your couple of ranged minis or group them for a starfall clear, then win on timer with a starfall or two on their base. Even if the enemy realizes it's a stalemate by cycling through to Lightning Rod Ancient again and again you can prevent their own spells from chipping your base and end it with a big enemy army stuck just out of range of your base rooted to the spot. Flying is probably the biggest weakness of the comp, with only troll and cenarius to counter and them being immune to root, but it's not too bad unless it's a super heavy flying comp like Rend. It ruins Miev's day for obvious reasons, Jaina as well if they don't have execute, and at least as far as I've played it is pretty solid.
Cenarius with Revitalize does not seem to trigger additional healing pulses for each mini in Skeleton Party, so when you play Skeleton Party into Cenarius, it just triggers one additional healing pulse, not five. This is pretty noticeable, since for me, a healing pulse at level 23 is 228 healing. Five of them is 1140 health, and my minis are definitely not being healed for that much health!
Onu is naturally vulnerable. Using the Faerie Dragon to counter the vulnerability seems to be working. I'm in pretty low tiers of PVP. But, opponents pretty quickly tie these down. Anything to help it last longer is good. I've not tried shaman or holy nova to keep it up longer.
Thanks for the video. Bog Beast -Flourish + Cenarius revitalise is a really good combination. Have to test how good Bog Beast -Flourish + Tyrion (Heal boost) works. +30% is a lot.
Petrify isn't needed. You just bring in a fresh Omu on top of one when the first gets to half health. Right now in PVP the gold rush modifier is in effect. That makes it pretty easy to bring in these expensive units.
I think Wild Growth is severely undervalued. If the root does damage and is able to kill weaker minis, that's insane value. You could take out Defias Bandits, Chicken, Vultures etc, that's insane. If it's just immobilize, that's pretty weak, but if it's a global root, it has massive value. Not only it could deal damage to where you want, it'd harm enemies far away too. Only weakness to this would be if enemy had amassed huge army with healers (like Cenarius), so potentially the effect is somewhat neglegible but in best case scenario this could be incredibly strong. This also stops saplings from running to tower, or stops melee units getting close to your units like if you make a Moonkin tank with Shaman Shield. There's a lot of potential in this patch that makes the old heroes kinda boring. I hope they return back to check on old heroes like Maiev and give her a boost, like every stealth Unit gets 50% Assasination damage etc. Or maybe they're going to reserve that to Valeera. The way they reworked her talents I think only the added extra damage is worth, and she's so costly that she's always going to be 1 trick Pony. Maybe have a talent where the gold reduction on her is doubled, or playing her would would be free. There's many ways to make her more interesting. Make Blink abilities avoid damage rather than receiving it and blinking backwards after.... This game has a lot of potential but I think it had bad start due to how much Blizzard put effort on leveling like 1000 stats, I think the game would be far better without individual unit levels. For heroes, sure, and you still need to collect tomes, maybe to empower talents rather than getting access to unlock units. I mean there's so much to unlock already nobody is going to have patience to have all their favourite minis with 3 talents.
Since all of my minis are 5 levels below the rest of the army, they seem weak. Glad to hear leaders will be strong. Having trouble with Ancient of War achievement. He is too slow to reach the boss.
Onu's From The Trees talent has a LOT of min/max potential with units. Pyromancer with Pyroblast talent is suddenly 3X + 2X on that first attack (assuming they stack, it isn't like I can see numbers). This means units with Ambush are great! Huntress with Shadowmeld talent would work. The unbound Worgen doesn't seem to work (there's no outline of the area to summon it around Onu). This also combines well with high damage squad units like Harpies (double damage on the first attack of 3 separate high damage flying units). Unclear if the 2X damage includes Harpy poison damage ... would assume not. This should also combine very strongly with siege damage from units that will ignore stuff and go straight for towers. Gargoyle and Warsong Raider with the Razing Focus talent.
Pyromancer with Pyroblast does indeed deal more damage with from the trees, but I think it is 3x + 1x, one more base attack's worth added to the total.
The Onu + gargoyle combination has been huge. The extra damage on the siege damage is definitely a big hit. But, it's also REALLY hard to deal with a flying siege damage tank that virtually spawns directly on top of the enemy base. This diminishes the value of the Wing Buffet talent and seems to make Aerial Superiority better. Alternate between pyromancer and gargoyle. I still don't know if pyromancer with pyroblast plus Onu with the tree talent are multiplicative or additive. I'm assuming additive because it isn't like ... EVERYTHING is dying immediately. If it's additive, then the first pryroblast does the AOE damage equivalent (roughly) to what the gargoyle does with siege damage. Pyromancer at level 18 is 861 damage. 861 * 3 == 2583 for the first attack. Onu doubles damage of first attack. 2583 * 2 == 5166. If it doesn't actually double that damage and it only adds in a second amount of damage equal to one attack (which is NOT what the tooltip says), then this would be 861 * 3 + 861 == 3444. Gargoyle at level 17 is 1150 damage. Siege damage means double damage vs towers. 2300 damage. Onu doubles damage. 2300 * 2 == 4600 damage on the first gargoyle attack. If there's a way to see the health of a tower at a given level I don't know how to find it. Usually a game like this will tell you offensive and defensive ability of towers ... somewhere.
@@OldGuardian So, the tooltip is just wrong. It doesn't double the damage. It adds in the base damage a given number of times. Just curious, how are you doing the testing on this? You'd need to know what the damage would be if addictive, and what the damage would be if multiplicative .. then what ... Identify a unit with a health amount that would live from a hit one way but die the other way?
@@zero11010 You can just shoot a big target with no pyro talent, with pyro talent, and with talent and from the trees - three separate runs. The difference between 4x and 6x is quite big. Actually, two runs might do, no talent is maybe unnecessary. I record my tests so I can compare the damage bars from the videos after.
It does, but note that both Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting (the cost reduction) require the spell to be the next mini, so they cannot be used together.
Faerie Dragon's best talent by far is the one that gives Resist to an ally. Stealth is the second. The blink talent actively harms you, so it is bad. Earth and Moon's best talent is Moonfury that gives Starfall a lot of damage, followed by Nature's Grace that grants all allies Resist for 6 seconds. Balance is useless.
I am so disappointed with Moonkin, as the Cenarion family is very expensive due to their wacky effects but some of them are not worth the cost. Moonkin especially lets me down because I main a Balance Druid in WoW and Boomkins are one of the tankiest spell casters in that game. The talents are also disappointing because call me a noob but I don't like using spells so their best talent Moonglow is a waste with me. I've had Vengeance REALLY go off when Moonkin gets support from a strong front line but you gotta time it right to make sure it has one of the tanks or or some CC to hold the enemy in place to do so.
Yes! Note that Moonglow is the next mini only. Jaina must be on the board already and you cannot get Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting on the same spell.
If Cenarius roots units entering his "ring", will they get rooted another time, if they enter again? So moonkin with Typhoon could take advantage of this Anyhow it's a nice defense tool to knock back Gargoyles or sappers etc. from yout tower =)
Thanks for the video. I have a question... How do we grant resist with cenarion minis? Brightwing talent haven't worked form me to complete the event quest.
So for me the quest didn't complete until I gave resist to cenarion mini's rather then with. I just combined brightwing and ancient of war, dropping brightwing and a 1 cost ancient and cycling.
@@IgnisNatus It's cool. Plenty of stars to be gained in the rewards. You can get a second perk to get Nature's Grasp talent on Earth and Moon or you can get the Fae Blessing talent on the Faerie Dragon. 👍 Fae Blessing works pretty well in here. Bring any tank with armored and now you have a tank with both armored AND resist, plus support from the Faerie Dragon. Putting resist on Omu should counter the vunlerable Omu starts with. Ancient of War is also armored. I found a quick and easy Ghoul with the Cannibalize talent to give it armored when it feeds works well (cycle mini ... nice and cheap tank that self heals ... and ends up with armored and resist). But, if you get that Nature's Grasp talent you'll pretty much get this immediately and without having to think about it.
Even without cen tho its still a 6 second stall its really good. Basically a situationally better harvest golem and harvest golem is a or s tier for pvp
Nope, it does not. I tested it with Earth and Moon before making this video, and now went back to test it again, and it still requires Cenarius to be on the board.
You said something that I couldn't quite make out, you said Onu's damage buff doesnt work on what? I'm asking because you said something that sounded like Cerberus, and I'm wondering if core hounds with the talent for additional damage near towers would make for a crazy powerful push.
Ancient of War as a siege weapon instead of Molten Giant. These numbers are pretty insane. There is some debate on if the tooltip for Ancient of War is accurate. Tooltip says 1.18 modifier PER GOLD spent. So, 6 gold spent would be a 6X multiplier. Old Guardian has suggested it may be per gold after the first. So, spending 6 gold gets a 5X multiplier. At each level the stats on these things change. If your units are a different level they'll have different numbers. Additionally, they do balance tweak often. Molten Giant at level 17. 6 cost. 16,105 health. 2.7 attack speed. 828 damage per attack 1656 with siege damage 306 DPS (100 / 2.7 * 828 / 100 == 306.66) 614 DPS with siege damage Ancient of War with Behemoth at level 15 (that's what I've got, sorry). * 6 cost. 3555 health with 1.18 multiplier. 3555 * 1.18 * 6 === 25,169 (or 355 * 1.18 * 5 == 20,947 if tooltip wrong). 2.1 attack speed. 251 damage with 1.18 multiplier. 251 * 1.18 * 6 === 1,777. (or 251 * 1.18 * 5 === 1,480 if tooltip wrong) 3554 damage with siege damage (or 2960 with siege damage if tooltip wrong) 846 DPS. 100 / 2.1 * 1777 / 100 == 846. (or 704 DPS if tooltip wrong) 1692 DPS with siege damage (or 1,408 DPS if tooltip wrong) As a quick aside: If you bring in a 10 cost Ancient of War with the siege damage talent on top of the double damage talent on Onu and that first hit (if it hits a tower) is worth 2961 damage per regular hit and with siege damage it's 5923 damage from the first hit on a 10 cost siege damage Ancient of War (give or take tooltip issue). I think I still like the Gargoyle or the Warsong Raider with Razing Focus more specifically because you KNOW that first hit will hit the tower while the Ancient of War could possibly hit some trash instead of the tower. Warsong is 3012 on first hit. Gargoyle is 4600 on the first hit. Gargoyle feels like king for tower focused attacks with double damage from Onu. DPS calculation is 100 seconds divided by attack speed to get attacks per 100 seconds. Then multiply by per attack damage to get total damage in 100 seconds. Then divide by 100 to get the damage per second out of the 100 seconds.
You use multipliers wrong. You cannot multiply the multiplier by the cost, you need to use an exponent. x Health times 1.18 to the power of 5 for a 6-cost. All your numbers are wrong and I already showed you earlier how the calculations work.
@@OldGuardian please look in more detail. I included details for if the tooltip is right, or if the tooltip is wrong and works like you outlined. It’s literally listed in the next sentence in each example. Both are provided in every instance. I also quoted you and gave an explaination in the intro. "Old Guardian has suggested it may be per gold after the first. So, spending 6 gold gets a 5X multiplier." I'm assuming you just glanced at it and commented without really reading it. No big deal.
Earth and Moon's best talent is Moonfury that gives Starfall a lot of damage, followed by Nature's Grace that grants all allies Resist for 6 seconds. Balance is useless.
@@OldGuardian OK so no chance from your original recommendation then... As f2p I've been bit once by going 1 way and then having to wait for ages to get the right talent lol
They do. Note that Moonglow is the next mini only. Jaina must be on the board already and you cannot get Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting on the same spell.
You can bring down Ancient of War as a 1 or 2 cost unit. With the Sapling perk you'll have a tank with a .84 attack speed (down from 2.1) which basically makes this a DPS unit with armored. Same general attack speed as the worgen. It seems like with a cost of 2 the damage is slightly higher. At my current level ancient of war is level 14. 228 damage with a 1.18 multiplier per gold. 2 gold makes that 538 by my math. 2.1 attack speed reduces by 60% to be 0.84. 3232 health with a 1.18 multiplier per gold. 2 gold makes that 7k health by my math (2 gold is a 2x multiplier ... 1.18 * 2 * 3232). also armored. It's also slow. (100 seconds divided by 0.84 attack speed is 119 attacks in 100 seconds. 119 attacks times 538 damage per attack times is 64,022 damage in 100 seconds. 64,022 damage divided by 100 seconds is 640.22 damage per second. A level 15 worgen costs 3. 494 damage. 0.8 attack speed. 1293 health. medium-fast speed. stealth, unbound and ambush are pretty solid. Yo ... it seems pretty useful to me with a cost of 2. In fact, it sounds SO useful, I'm assuming those tooltips are wrong. A ghoul is a 2 cost tank. My level 15 ghoul has 246 DPS (about a third as much damage). It has 3954 health (half as much health). I feel like 2X the health and basically 3X the damage is a pretty solid 2 cost tank.
228 damage with a 1.18 multiplier per additional gold means that 2 gold deals 269 damage (228*1.18). 3 gold would be 317 damage (228*1.18*1.18). It does not scale quite as fast as you calculated. It is still competitive at low costs, but falls behind when you go a bit higher.
@@OldGuardian are you sure? It says per gold. What you’re describing is per gold after 1. That may absolutely be true. But, it means the tooltip is wrong. Yeah? 1.18 per gold is what the tooltip says. 2 gold would be that twice. Will say the numbers seem insane if true. So, what you’re saying may totally be right and the tooltip may just be wrong.
@@EpicDio what old guardian outlined was different. It sounded like what you said, except, it ignored the first gold. Yeah? Look at his math (which may be accurate). 2 gold is the number times the modifier once (not twice). 3 gold is the number times the modifier twice (not three times). The only difference between his math and mine is that I followed the tooltip and did the multiplier per gold, bro.
I have cleared the first one in 40 seconds starting with drakk-shaman-pyromancer on the right and a gryphon on the left, they intercept the chimera on the top right and kill her in a single push. With a single holy nova on the drakk
I don't really know how to test it. I'm running that combo. Also try with Ambush from Huntress. Also try with siege units that run straight for towers. Summoning in a gargoyle near the enemy base that does double damage on the first hit is pretty devastating.
What makes Moonkin talents so hard to evaluate is in part just how bad Moonkin is. Typhoon can do some fun things with Onu, but overall it is not good.
@@OldGuardian i found your video my boy thank you. Btw our guild dark riders is very activ for does that are activ and whant a guild and dont have one activ. If you don't want to me comment om my guild so tell me my friend ^^
Bog beast with cenarius and shaman is nuts
This is the main thing i need right now, thanks for the service!
I felt like the ghoul with the bone shield talent combined with the faerie dragon was working really well. This is a cheap tank with both armored and resist which will also heal itself, and then it's got a flying guy for support.
That lead me to the bog beast which is already resistant and the living wood talent to give it armored (for half health). It's a cheaper way to get out a tank with both methods of defense. It didn't feel like it was as strong. The ghoul + faerie dragon seemed to do much better than I could do with the same 5 cost with that bog beast. Not done trying out stuff yet though!
Very well described, very well explained! For example I didn't think of to use Molten Giant instead of buying/using "Behemoth"! Thank you very much...
I wonder if Lightning rod's going to work in Ragnaros fight to redirect big living bomb that usually kills ally blob going at tower
The brain on this guy
Also "Typhoon" can be good on defense with Ragnaros, drawing enemies towards Ragnaros so he can hit ranged units.
I actually picked up all the root talents and they're surprisingly strong as a comp. In PvP I'd just stall out the enemy eternally with various roots and Lightning Rod until I got a giant ball of healing that walked over the enemy. They couldn't stop it very effectively because everything they placed would just get stuck in place for so long.
Interesting. Would you mind giving your root team line-up. I'd like to give it a try in pvp.
Sounds fun and plan to do the same once I get second talents.
@@PaulSyd Sure. Take it with a grain of salt though - I threw it together and it just worked, carrying me to ~3100 before I got hard locked against people with a 2-3 level advantage over my new minis. It could be a fluke due to people not knowing the match yet or just a string of good matches.
Cenarius - Wild Growth
Earth and Moon - Moonfury
Bog Beast - Rampant Growth
Ancient of War - Lightning Rod
Harvest Golem - Unstable Core
Frostwolf Shaman - Earth Shield
Darkspear Troll - Big Bad Voodoo
2 win cons I found. First is to use bog beast and shaman to get the classic armor/resist combo rolling. Drop an Cenarius nearby for the extra healing and a 4 cost ancient of war on the opposite side to stop enemy spells, then cycle the rest to try to drop the same combo, either stacking it or in a lane that will meet up with the first drop. With spells being drawn away and the massive healing/tanking it's easy for the pack to live long enough to add another bog beasts and a 2nd or 3rd healer, at which point it's really hard to stop without specific counters. Against heavy unbound comps it's good to drop a few mini's by the ancient to clear them as they get pulled in. I've seen the ball eat multiple spells without any of the mini's dying due to the massive healing and high resist across the board.
This doesn't always work though, usually because the enemy is a higher level or packing execute, a great counter to the deathball. I've still managed to win a couple games anyway due to switching to a stalling strategy. Between the global root, the Bog Beast root, Harvest Golem stuns, and the Earth and Moon root you can keep enemies from closing on your base, poke them down with your couple of ranged minis or group them for a starfall clear, then win on timer with a starfall or two on their base. Even if the enemy realizes it's a stalemate by cycling through to Lightning Rod Ancient again and again you can prevent their own spells from chipping your base and end it with a big enemy army stuck just out of range of your base rooted to the spot.
Flying is probably the biggest weakness of the comp, with only troll and cenarius to counter and them being immune to root, but it's not too bad unless it's a super heavy flying comp like Rend. It ruins Miev's day for obvious reasons, Jaina as well if they don't have execute, and at least as far as I've played it is pretty solid.
you’re fighting PvP bots up to 3000 rating
@@MuradinsLootship Possibly but I thought that only lasts to 1k, not 3.
Fantastic breakdown, thank you for the great content as always
Wow that was fast 😂
Cenarius with Revitalize does not seem to trigger additional healing pulses for each mini in Skeleton Party, so when you play Skeleton Party into Cenarius, it just triggers one additional healing pulse, not five. This is pretty noticeable, since for me, a healing pulse at level 23 is 228 healing. Five of them is 1140 health, and my minis are definitely not being healed for that much health!
Onu is naturally vulnerable. Using the Faerie Dragon to counter the vulnerability seems to be working. I'm in pretty low tiers of PVP. But, opponents pretty quickly tie these down. Anything to help it last longer is good.
I've not tried shaman or holy nova to keep it up longer.
Thanks for the video. Bog Beast -Flourish + Cenarius revitalise is a really good combination. Have to test how good Bog Beast -Flourish + Tyrion (Heal boost) works. +30% is a lot.
Thank you for your super fast content as always!
a omu with petrify is a dangeruse push that can make you summon nonstop minis in the enemy fortress
Petrify isn't needed. You just bring in a fresh Omu on top of one when the first gets to half health. Right now in PVP the gold rush modifier is in effect. That makes it pretty easy to bring in these expensive units.
I think Wild Growth is severely undervalued. If the root does damage and is able to kill weaker minis, that's insane value. You could take out Defias Bandits, Chicken, Vultures etc, that's insane.
If it's just immobilize, that's pretty weak, but if it's a global root, it has massive value. Not only it could deal damage to where you want, it'd harm enemies far away too.
Only weakness to this would be if enemy had amassed huge army with healers (like Cenarius), so potentially the effect is somewhat neglegible but in best case scenario this could be incredibly strong. This also stops saplings from running to tower, or stops melee units getting close to your units like if you make a Moonkin tank with Shaman Shield. There's a lot of potential in this patch that makes the old heroes kinda boring.
I hope they return back to check on old heroes like Maiev and give her a boost, like every stealth Unit gets 50% Assasination damage etc. Or maybe they're going to reserve that to Valeera. The way they reworked her talents I think only the added extra damage is worth, and she's so costly that she's always going to be 1 trick Pony. Maybe have a talent where the gold reduction on her is doubled, or playing her would would be free. There's many ways to make her more interesting. Make Blink abilities avoid damage rather than receiving it and blinking backwards after....
This game has a lot of potential but I think it had bad start due to how much Blizzard put effort on leveling like 1000 stats, I think the game would be far better without individual unit levels. For heroes, sure, and you still need to collect tomes, maybe to empower talents rather than getting access to unlock units. I mean there's so much to unlock already nobody is going to have patience to have all their favourite minis with 3 talents.
Since all of my minis are 5 levels below the rest of the army, they seem weak. Glad to hear leaders will be strong. Having trouble with Ancient of War achievement. He is too slow to reach the boss.
Play with Omu ;)
Or play low levels heroics and let him move with a shaman and nothing else.
Captchering a Meeting Stone also works ;)
Onu's From The Trees talent has a LOT of min/max potential with units.
Pyromancer with Pyroblast talent is suddenly 3X + 2X on that first attack (assuming they stack, it isn't like I can see numbers).
This means units with Ambush are great! Huntress with Shadowmeld talent would work. The unbound Worgen doesn't seem to work (there's no outline of the area to summon it around Onu). This also combines well with high damage squad units like Harpies (double damage on the first attack of 3 separate high damage flying units). Unclear if the 2X damage includes Harpy poison damage ... would assume not.
This should also combine very strongly with siege damage from units that will ignore stuff and go straight for towers. Gargoyle and Warsong Raider with the Razing Focus talent.
Pyromancer with Pyroblast does indeed deal more damage with from the trees, but I think it is 3x + 1x, one more base attack's worth added to the total.
The Onu + gargoyle combination has been huge. The extra damage on the siege damage is definitely a big hit. But, it's also REALLY hard to deal with a flying siege damage tank that virtually spawns directly on top of the enemy base. This diminishes the value of the Wing Buffet talent and seems to make Aerial Superiority better.
Alternate between pyromancer and gargoyle.
I still don't know if pyromancer with pyroblast plus Onu with the tree talent are multiplicative or additive. I'm assuming additive because it isn't like ... EVERYTHING is dying immediately.
If it's additive, then the first pryroblast does the AOE damage equivalent (roughly) to what the gargoyle does with siege damage.
Pyromancer at level 18 is 861 damage. 861 * 3 == 2583 for the first attack. Onu doubles damage of first attack. 2583 * 2 == 5166. If it doesn't actually double that damage and it only adds in a second amount of damage equal to one attack (which is NOT what the tooltip says), then this would be 861 * 3 + 861 == 3444.
Gargoyle at level 17 is 1150 damage. Siege damage means double damage vs towers. 2300 damage. Onu doubles damage. 2300 * 2 == 4600 damage on the first gargoyle attack.
If there's a way to see the health of a tower at a given level I don't know how to find it. Usually a game like this will tell you offensive and defensive ability of towers ... somewhere.
@@zero11010 Pyromancer is additive, 300% from Pyro and another 100% from First Strike.
@@OldGuardian So, the tooltip is just wrong. It doesn't double the damage. It adds in the base damage a given number of times.
Just curious, how are you doing the testing on this?
You'd need to know what the damage would be if addictive, and what the damage would be if multiplicative .. then what ... Identify a unit with a health amount that would live from a hit one way but die the other way?
@@zero11010 You can just shoot a big target with no pyro talent, with pyro talent, and with talent and from the trees - three separate runs. The difference between 4x and 6x is quite big. Actually, two runs might do, no talent is maybe unnecessary. I record my tests so I can compare the damage bars from the videos after.
If you have multiple accounts to test talents will be nice if you show us haw this talents work in a quick video
You can install the game on tablets and mac OS computers and also on phones to test stuff out. 👍
Does Moonglow stack with Jaina's ability for a +5 level increase on spells? Doesn't that make it a powerful combo?
It does, but note that both Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting (the cost reduction) require the spell to be the next mini, so they cannot be used together.
Thanks for the much need and revitalizing guide 👍
What about the previously released Cenarion minis? Any recommendations?
Faerie Dragon's best talent by far is the one that gives Resist to an ally. Stealth is the second. The blink talent actively harms you, so it is bad.
Earth and Moon's best talent is Moonfury that gives Starfall a lot of damage, followed by Nature's Grace that grants all allies Resist for 6 seconds. Balance is useless.
@@OldGuardian Thanks so much! I really appreciate your videos to help us optimize our gameplay and the rewards!
thank you ☕
I am so disappointed with Moonkin, as the Cenarion family is very expensive due to their wacky effects but some of them are not worth the cost. Moonkin especially lets me down because I main a Balance Druid in WoW and Boomkins are one of the tankiest spell casters in that game. The talents are also disappointing because call me a noob but I don't like using spells so their best talent Moonglow is a waste with me. I've had Vengeance REALLY go off when Moonkin gets support from a strong front line but you gotta time it right to make sure it has one of the tanks or or some CC to hold the enemy in place to do so.
Thank you!
Does Moonglow stack with Jaina's inherent ability? +5 levels to spells?
Yes! Note that Moonglow is the next mini only. Jaina must be on the board already and you cannot get Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting on the same spell.
If Cenarius roots units entering his "ring", will they get rooted another time, if they enter again?
So moonkin with Typhoon could take advantage of this
Anyhow it's a nice defense tool to knock back Gargoyles or sappers etc. from yout tower =)
faerie dragon is too weak and its range sucks
Thanks for the video. I have a question... How do we grant resist with cenarion minis? Brightwing talent haven't worked form me to complete the event quest.
So for me the quest didn't complete until I gave resist to cenarion mini's rather then with. I just combined brightwing and ancient of war, dropping brightwing and a 1 cost ancient and cycling.
@@mitchmcnair4222 OK I'll try. Thanks
Easiest way is with the talent on earth and moon, so it gives resist to all of your minis on the map
@@AngelDracos yeah. Sadly I don't have that talent
@@IgnisNatus It's cool. Plenty of stars to be gained in the rewards. You can get a second perk to get Nature's Grasp talent on Earth and Moon or you can get the Fae Blessing talent on the Faerie Dragon. 👍
Fae Blessing works pretty well in here. Bring any tank with armored and now you have a tank with both armored AND resist, plus support from the Faerie Dragon. Putting resist on Omu should counter the vunlerable Omu starts with. Ancient of War is also armored. I found a quick and easy Ghoul with the Cannibalize talent to give it armored when it feeds works well (cycle mini ... nice and cheap tank that self heals ... and ends up with armored and resist).
But, if you get that Nature's Grasp talent you'll pretty much get this immediately and without having to think about it.
Thanks for sharing
Thanks Lord oG
Rampant growth is for sure the best pvp talent for bog beast esp if playing with cenarius with treants talent
Even without cen tho its still a 6 second stall its really good. Basically a situationally better harvest golem and harvest golem is a or s tier for pvp
Force of Nature talent triggers even when he’s not on the board. Tested with earth and moon
Nope, it does not. I tested it with Earth and Moon before making this video, and now went back to test it again, and it still requires Cenarius to be on the board.
You said something that I couldn't quite make out, you said Onu's damage buff doesnt work on what?
I'm asking because you said something that sounded like Cerberus, and I'm wondering if core hounds with the talent for additional damage near towers would make for a crazy powerful push.
Sappers
Sappers.
Sappers! I think this is because Sappers were removed from the First Strike modifier in PvP earlier.
Does magic shield from fairy Dragon, remove the vulnerable from uno?
Ancient of War as a siege weapon instead of Molten Giant. These numbers are pretty insane.
There is some debate on if the tooltip for Ancient of War is accurate. Tooltip says 1.18 modifier PER GOLD spent. So, 6 gold spent would be a 6X multiplier. Old Guardian has suggested it may be per gold after the first. So, spending 6 gold gets a 5X multiplier.
At each level the stats on these things change. If your units are a different level they'll have different numbers. Additionally, they do balance tweak often.
Molten Giant at level 17.
6 cost.
16,105 health.
2.7 attack speed.
828 damage per attack
1656 with siege damage
306 DPS (100 / 2.7 * 828 / 100 == 306.66)
614 DPS with siege damage
Ancient of War with Behemoth at level 15 (that's what I've got, sorry).
* 6 cost.
3555 health with 1.18 multiplier. 3555 * 1.18 * 6 === 25,169 (or 355 * 1.18 * 5 == 20,947 if tooltip wrong).
2.1 attack speed.
251 damage with 1.18 multiplier. 251 * 1.18 * 6 === 1,777. (or 251 * 1.18 * 5 === 1,480 if tooltip wrong)
3554 damage with siege damage (or 2960 with siege damage if tooltip wrong)
846 DPS. 100 / 2.1 * 1777 / 100 == 846. (or 704 DPS if tooltip wrong)
1692 DPS with siege damage (or 1,408 DPS if tooltip wrong)
As a quick aside:
If you bring in a 10 cost Ancient of War with the siege damage talent on top of the double damage talent on Onu and that first hit (if it hits a tower) is worth 2961 damage per regular hit and with siege damage it's 5923 damage from the first hit on a 10 cost siege damage Ancient of War (give or take tooltip issue). I think I still like the Gargoyle or the Warsong Raider with Razing Focus more specifically because you KNOW that first hit will hit the tower while the Ancient of War could possibly hit some trash instead of the tower. Warsong is 3012 on first hit. Gargoyle is 4600 on the first hit. Gargoyle feels like king for tower focused attacks with double damage from Onu.
DPS calculation is
100 seconds divided by attack speed to get attacks per 100 seconds. Then multiply by per attack damage to get total damage in 100 seconds. Then divide by 100 to get the damage per second out of the 100 seconds.
You use multipliers wrong. You cannot multiply the multiplier by the cost, you need to use an exponent. x Health times 1.18 to the power of 5 for a 6-cost. All your numbers are wrong and I already showed you earlier how the calculations work.
@@OldGuardian please look in more detail. I included details for if the tooltip is right, or if the tooltip is wrong and works like you outlined.
It’s literally listed in the next sentence in each example. Both are provided in every instance.
I also quoted you and gave an explaination in the intro.
"Old Guardian has suggested it may be per gold after the first. So, spending 6 gold gets a 5X multiplier."
I'm assuming you just glanced at it and commented without really reading it. No big deal.
@@zero11010 I read it in detail. You cannot calculate multipliers like 3555 * 1.18 * 5. You must do 3555 * 1.18 * 1.18 * 1.18 * 1.18 * 1.18.
@@OldGuardian I see! This:
base * modifier ^ gold
or
base * modifier ^ (gold - 1)
Will edit the comment.
Wild Growth seems pretty broken, if it actually does damage.
I picked Revitalize, apparently it doenst work as understood, only max 3 healing pulses
So do we have an update on the earth and moon talent now that we have some cenarius minis?
Earth and Moon's best talent is Moonfury that gives Starfall a lot of damage, followed by Nature's Grace that grants all allies Resist for 6 seconds. Balance is useless.
@@OldGuardian OK so no chance from your original recommendation then... As f2p I've been bit once by going 1 way and then having to wait for ages to get the right talent lol
I love you friend!!! 😜
So Jaina's spell boost and Moonkin's Moonglow dont' stack?
They do. Note that Moonglow is the next mini only. Jaina must be on the board already and you cannot get Moonglow and Jaina's Clearcasting on the same spell.
Cenarion minis are too expensive to summon, cheapest ones are 3 gold and above, with no cycle minis
You can bring down Ancient of War as a 1 or 2 cost unit. With the Sapling perk you'll have a tank with a .84 attack speed (down from 2.1) which basically makes this a DPS unit with armored. Same general attack speed as the worgen. It seems like with a cost of 2 the damage is slightly higher.
At my current level ancient of war is level 14. 228 damage with a 1.18 multiplier per gold. 2 gold makes that 538 by my math. 2.1 attack speed reduces by 60% to be 0.84. 3232 health with a 1.18 multiplier per gold. 2 gold makes that 7k health by my math (2 gold is a 2x multiplier ... 1.18 * 2 * 3232). also armored. It's also slow. (100 seconds divided by 0.84 attack speed is 119 attacks in 100 seconds. 119 attacks times 538 damage per attack times is 64,022 damage in 100 seconds. 64,022 damage divided by 100 seconds is 640.22 damage per second.
A level 15 worgen costs 3. 494 damage. 0.8 attack speed. 1293 health. medium-fast speed. stealth, unbound and ambush are pretty solid.
Yo ... it seems pretty useful to me with a cost of 2. In fact, it sounds SO useful, I'm assuming those tooltips are wrong.
A ghoul is a 2 cost tank. My level 15 ghoul has 246 DPS (about a third as much damage). It has 3954 health (half as much health).
I feel like 2X the health and basically 3X the damage is a pretty solid 2 cost tank.
228 damage with a 1.18 multiplier per additional gold means that 2 gold deals 269 damage (228*1.18). 3 gold would be 317 damage (228*1.18*1.18). It does not scale quite as fast as you calculated. It is still competitive at low costs, but falls behind when you go a bit higher.
@@OldGuardian are you sure? It says per gold. What you’re describing is per gold after 1. That may absolutely be true. But, it means the tooltip is wrong.
Yeah? 1.18 per gold is what the tooltip says. 2 gold would be that twice.
Will say the numbers seem insane if true. So, what you’re saying may totally be right and the tooltip may just be wrong.
@@zero11010bro the tooltip is clear, the scaling is x1.18, that means +18% for every gold.
@@EpicDio what old guardian outlined was different. It sounded like what you said, except, it ignored the first gold. Yeah? Look at his math (which may be accurate).
2 gold is the number times the modifier once (not twice).
3 gold is the number times the modifier twice (not three times).
The only difference between his math and mine is that I followed the tooltip and did the multiplier per gold, bro.
Any guide for cenarion dungeon coming up?
Can you find a easy way to finish a moonglade heroic mission without taking base damage ? (The challenge on the cenarion festival.)
I have cleared the first one in 40 seconds starting with drakk-shaman-pyromancer on the right and a gryphon on the left, they intercept the chimera on the top right and kill her in a single push. With a single holy nova on the drakk
@@EpicDio what's their average lvl?
@@tahagold7943 25
the new champ you just summon unlimited tanks in their face it's broken
So far,moonkin is the second weakest mini in cenarion family. It is useless,no matter which talent you choose, they are equally disappointing.
Any conclusions?
Is the analysis for PvE or PvP?
Mostly PvE although I take the main PvP considerations into account.
@@OldGuardian I'm mainly focusing on PvE so that's perfect for me. Thanks OldGuardian 🙂
Anyone know if "from the trees" is mulplicative or additive with other modifiers? Pyroblast for example...
I don't really know how to test it. I'm running that combo.
Also try with Ambush from Huntress.
Also try with siege units that run straight for towers. Summoning in a gargoyle near the enemy base that does double damage on the first hit is pretty devastating.
hi typhon is good for moonkin >?
What makes Moonkin talents so hard to evaluate is in part just how bad Moonkin is. Typhoon can do some fun things with Onu, but overall it is not good.
Yooo
moonkin is super weak for 4 gold.. it's like witchdoctor but weaker
Poor cairne just uff horse minis and cenarius gives 20% to all minis 😮 yes it's empty health but he provides aoe heal so seems just flat out better
Disagree with Cenarius
All nature minions sucks... cant win a quick match by being forced to play melee trent units and zero ranged minis
Hi i can't find that you have done the minior fiere drago. Even on the other long video
Fae Blessing is by far the best talent for Faerie Dragon. Stealth comes second, whereas the blink one is actively hurting you.
@@OldGuardian i found your video my boy thank you. Btw our guild dark riders is very activ for does that are activ and whant a guild and dont have one activ. If you don't want to me comment om my guild so tell me my friend ^^