$2000 Canyon Stoic Review - Best Bike Without the Shop?
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- Опубліковано 16 лют 2024
- The $2000 Canyon Stoic is quite a contentious idea. Sure, it might bypass the added cost of buying a bike from the shop, but does that mean all the headaches are also direct to consumer?
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Being from Germany I thought I give this a try. Imagine my surprise when I tried to turn it on and turn the throttle. Nothing was happening. Canyon does have a good costumer support and sent out a replacement but it had the same issues. Idk... I think I'll keep my KTM a while longer till they can figure their QC out.
Damn, absolutely outrageous! Did you check if they even gave you gas with it?
@@call_me_mado5987 they didn't! It didn't even have any brake fluid in it.
Nain nain you dont darfst hier ofeoading or the polizai is komming
Was soll das für eine Sprache sein? @@tvexpert_xd2388
Costumer! 🤣🤣😂😍
Us Germans are pretty cool, sometimes!
To be fair in Europe the prices of Canyon bikes are really difficult to beat, boxing and shipping is around 80€, the bike actually reaches you half built (yes with the back wheel, derailleur and derailleur hanger installed) and you have no import duties.
The only companies that compete with Canyon are other german companies like YT, Propain, Radon or Rose
Don't forget Cube 😉
Focus does make really competitive bikes to
Yeah, for the price and components, Canyon beats other brands here. Some other brands like Trek, Kona, Giant are more expensive and with poorer components. That's why I ordered mine Stoic 2 in 2020, when it just came out
Isn't propain based out of Vancouver Washington?
Owned by Canyon
As a guy who has just picked up a Roscoe 8, Luke behind the counter, gave good advice, this things awesome.
Pretty informative and interesting and I really like the way bicycle guy presented it. I mean he’s no 44… But at least he survives his bicycle trip without dying
#44 is overrated. I miss #43.
In December, I bought this Bike (I live in Germany) for 999€ with all the required tools included. The shipping was 60€. I'm really happy with the Bike. The only parts that I changed was the brake system. The SRAM brakes are crap and I mounted a set of Magura MT5. I use the Bike in winter when it is wet and dirty outside. It's easier to maintain and wash an Hardtail rater than a Fully. This Bike ist a perfect match to my Enduro MTB
You didn’t. It’s the frame with absolute bottom shelf parts
Appreciate keeping the pricing and realities of being Canadian. I get why, but so many Canadian content creators (no matter the industry) default to US pricing, and don't address the reality of what we, as Canadian pay when importing products either from the US, or further abroad. Great video, highlights the bike for the budget conscious, but then notes the ballooning post-purchase costs.
Even some British content makers do that (Mr who's the boss)
Seems like more Canadians are actually youtubers as well. I atribute the cold winters and need to have an income despite it. Our northern entertainers.
I learned the pains of import with my BMW. I had to order a rear MC rebuild kit from the UK. Did the Pounds Sterling to CAD and thought it was all good. Until Canada post charged me another 1.2x what I had paid for duty, shipping, and something else.... Still, I needed the parts, just wish I knew what the "real" price was gonna be.
They are a Canadian shop.
Non Canadian viewers are essentially irrelevant to them.
@@HALLish-jl5mo There are a number of Canadian content creators, who, when reviewing products, etc all put it in USD vs CAD dollars.
So, when the budget of $2,000 was mentioned, my first skepticism went to "oh, this must be USD", but clearly it became clear it was CAD later in the video.
So, I'm giving F9 props for reviewing products and making CAD pricing their priority, it's more relatable than seeing a product for a price, only to search it myself to find that it is USD pricing referenced in their video.
Top2BottomMTB is one Canadian content creator that does this, referencing USD pricing vs CAD.
I get why they do it, appealing to the larger US market, so I was giving kudos to F9 for keeping it Canadian.
This motorcycle doesn't have a motor in it? I'm very confused here.
It does... you are the motor!
you are the motor
It's a very eco-friendly motor. 30 miles per cheeseburger.
@@John_Ridley What a deal!
@John_Ridley I'm pretty sure with a fuel budget supplied to me like that I could do several runs for several cheeseburgers.
As a guy who has three motos and four mtbs in the garage. I approve of this message.
Out of curiosity, what are the three motos? As someone who only has bikes at the moment (and wants more variety among them for different types of rides), and someone who watches this channel because having a motorcycle seems pretty dang fun, I'm extra-curious what reasons there'd be for having multiple motorcycles rather than just one 'favorite' one.
@@Saftkeur It is like having three girlfriends, you never really know which one your want.
@@Saftkeur Diffrent types of motorcycles are just better at certain things than others.
Learned to ride on a SV650. Still own it, it's just really fun on twisties or for short hops around town but a pain for longer highway rides. On long trips something with more wind protection and a comfy seat / position is better (cruiser large naked with windshield or adv) . For trips in the wild take a adventure, dualsport, .. bike. For the track take a sports or naked bike
@@Saftkeur I'll let you know about mine 3 motos, despite fact that you didn't ask me.
#1 - Triumph Tiger 800 - My long distance, "expedition" bike. i use it to travel, mostly highway to destination and some offroading there. also some weekend rides with friends who own faster bikes, and for those, where my wife stoles my offroader but i want to ride too
#2 - Honda NX 250 - 1992 - youngtimer, because i wanted one, as i enjoy old bikes. this bike is small, light offroader for me to have fun at weekends. Not an enduro itself, but on my skill level It can do anything i want to try. it's a bike to have 2-3 hours of fun. i chose this model as it's seat height is quite low, so sometimes my wife take it to ride some gravel (this is why i use my tiger also at weekend to ride with her)
#3 - Yamaha N-Max 125. yep, a scooter. I use it for daily commuting, to work, to do groceries. It's way cheaper to ride than other ones (both in fuel and maintanence) and it can still split lanes in traffic. Moreover, I Live in Poland (Europe) - so we have snow for 2-3 months a year. my scooter has a second set of winter tires, knee blanket and neoprene hand covers. together with low power and low center of weight it makes it easy also to ride in winter. Bikes with higher weight center are more prone to slides when you loose grip in winter, this schooter just "waves" it's tail like a drifting pro but is always upright. Also it has huge bagabe compartment under seat so i can put my work laptop, food and groceries into it, without need of backpacks. And i can leave helmet there when i arrive at office/cinema/shop
and this is why i own 3 motorcycles. if i'd had chance i would add some touring bike like kawasaki Z1000SX, as my wife owns her own touring bike, so for holidays with her i use my Tiger, but If i could I'd like to split it into something more highway oriented (Z1000SX) and lighter adventure bike for longer trips (Husquarna 701 or GasGas Es 700 with some added ari protection or older Yamaha XT660Z due to it's low weight that would came usefull in offroad trips like oi had to Albania last year)
@@stillsalty947 Yeah that makes perfect sense! Hadn't really thought about how much of a pain it'd be to get on the highway with a slower, more nimble bike or vice versa with a highway cruiser in the city. (and I should probably rethink looking at Goldwings as a silly first bike, since I'm not really planning on highway trips if I got one.)
Some of the best bike videos around, so glad I started shopping with you guys last year and now this, added bonus. It's amazing how you started off as a bike review and ended up with a LBS advert, bravo. When I was looking for a bike in Ontario, the DTC brands seemed very attractive until I added the extra duty, at which point the LBS became more competitive which is the point of the duty I guess. I ended up buying an Optic and haven't looked back.
Fantastic video! I'm so glad you highlighted the importance of the local bike shop; it really is a gateway to a local biking community and amazing source of information.
I like those MTB intermezzo spots for two reasons:
1) I ride mountainbikes during the winter to stay in shape and to further my off-road skills
2) It makes motorcycling look even cooler in comparison 😅
heeeeyy, don't do my mountain biking like that
Awesome video. Hidden costs are the worst costs because hidden.
Go to a bike shop. Establish a rapport. Ride with a group from the bike shop. In the end you'll spend the same or less and get to know people. And have a bike shop on your side.
Yeah i agree, was looking at belt driven mtb without an electric motor, its from the us so until its at my doorstep in switzerland or germany itll be 650usd shipping plus over 1000€ import tax. Making a 3500usd bike cost 5 grand easily. Kind of a joke.
Duty really isn't a "hidden" cost though. Anyone with half a brain should know to consider it and find out how much it is.
I may have visited only the wrong kind of bike shops, but the only rapport they truly wanted to establish was with my wallet.
I think that if pay for assembly you don't pay the 1st delivery fee
Got a Roscoe 8 in May and been loving every moment. As someone who is done riding a motorcycle on the street, i appreciate the mtb content. Off road on anything the way.
I have no interest on this, but still watch it cause I like you guys
Exactly
Weirdly enough I feel the same about the motorbike stuff. Don't and won't own one, but I like bikes enough for Ryans vid's to interest me.
@@cornishcactus just get a cheap one already, it's fun
@@Bugside Too many chances to overtake cars that annoy me now, too many chances to screw that up.
@@cornishcactus you don't need buy a race bike, get a cool, relaxed bop around town bike and have fun, at least you'll know if you like it
I've turned to online bike purchasing because my local bike shops aren't friendly. They charge extra for assembly and it looks like they hired the kid who was assembling gas grills at Walmart.
I don't even HAVE a "local" bike shop less than a 75 minute drive away.
No experience with Canyon, but my direct-to-consumer purchase from Lynskey back in 2018 was outstanding. And thanks to them being handmade in Chattanooga, Tennessee, I did not have to pay any import or duty fees as a resident of Pennsylvania. A delight to do business with.
I dont get issue with 11 or 12 speeds. Those 11 speed bikes have even larger big gear on rear cassete than 12 speed Stoic. Ok, you get "extra" gear in middle but it doesnt matter if you aint in some race. If you aint fit enough then climbing on 11 speed shimano would be easier.
Exactly right. Sram S(u)X comes with a 50t granny gear while Shimano Deore 10 and 11 speed both run a 51t. And Deore shits all over SX. SX is the worst drivetrain from the big 2 of anything 8 gears or more. You have to get down to Shimano Tourney to get a worse system. I actively try to discourage customers from buying bikes with it on and try not to stock bikes specd with it
Thank you! That part really bothered me. That's a detail I would really expect to be caught by a F9 video.
@@mad082sss Deore 12 spd also has a 10-51t
I used to ride motorcycles but gave them up after too many close calls with vehicles. Instead I traded my motorcycle obsession for a pedal bicycle obsession. It’s so good to see F9 dabble into the bike world a bit, it’s so awesome.
I started riding mountain bikes to get better at motorcycle racing. Now I love both! Glad to see Fortnine helping to develop the intersection of these two hobbies.
Love both the motorcycle and bike contend. Since it's illegal to go offroad on a motorcycle over here, bikes are a nice alternative for me.
where are you?
What country are you in you can't MX?
@@virginiascurti5036like every country in Europe? Probably lots of other countries too.
I approve. Been riding for decades, but I call BS on MX riding. We have precious little wilderness left for wildlife without terrorizing them. Lots of habitat is one of the main reasons that wildlife numbers are plummeting all over the world.
What a great review! Great job and I’m sure glad you didn’t join the OTB club once again.
As an avid rider and instructor I’ve heard of Canyon and rarely have seen them here in south Florida. Your review gives me a different perspective. Thanks again! Rock on!
I enjoy the Acoustic Motorcycle content but always end up wondering how much better it would be if you strapped a motor to those things.
Pretty sure they made a video about that.
They do. It’s a electric mtb. They are the way to go
Some local bicycle shops also might offer free tune-ups for bikes you buy new from them; the one I worked at did.
Loving the MTB content!
I came to this channel to see motorbike stuff, but hey, I love the bicycle content you do too. Keep on the great work you do guys! THX
Great. Thanks, man. Keep it coming.
This channel ain’t about motorcycles anymore, it’s about the 2 wheeled cultures.
And I’m all for it👍
could you do a comparison between off road motorcycle helmets and full face mtb helmets? i wonder if they are interchangeable
I've got some theories about that and have switched between moto and MTB helmets for bike park in the past. I'll put this on the long list of video ideas!
-DOD F9
@@FortNine alr tysm i appreciate it
I very much enjoyed your video. Most amusing, interesting and very informative.
Well done in true Fortnine fashion. More please.
This was a fascinating Video and delightful to watch!
It’s crazy how good FortNine is. I have no interest in owning a pedal bike at all yet I watch every one of these videos
That Ryan F9 impersonation was uncanny.
Who knew Ryan liked bicycles so much?
Guys, why don't you strap an accelerometer up your saddle and test how varying tire widths and pressures affect vibration on that hardtail?
D.O.D. enjoy your vids very much!!!
Some Canyon bikes come to Canada duty-free and some don't. Depends on whether they count as produced in Europe or not. Currently when you go through the checkout process, it will show you a duty estimate based on whether or not it is eligible for duty free import.
If they sold and shipped the wheels seperately, they could avoid the13% complete bike duty.
RF9 Is allowing someone with no throttle hand to make videos now?
As a long-time viewer I'm super pumped!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not a Polygon Siskiu? I have one and it seems to do everything this Canyon does but better in every aspect. Good parts, good build quality, way cheaper price, better instructions, everything needed to build it is included, etc while also being dual suspension (or even cheaper again if you want one of their hard tails)
How about what to look for/check on secondhand bikes, from a source we can all trust.
MTB and motorbiking is the ultimate combo! ❤ Nice to see, that F9 has also found this recipe.
can you do a video on the $250 costco electric bike? any mods we can do to make it better? or is it more cost effective to get a more expensive electric bike?
honestly, I think it's better to convert a normal bike to electric. cheap ebikes suck, and the good ones are crazy expensive. I converted my bike to a 750W mid drive for about $800, where a similar factory ebike would cost $2500+
In our town, we have two bike shops.
One is for "hardcore" single-speed, triathlon, or trustfund riders.
The other is for regular people.
If we only had the snobbish one to use, I would definitely be leaning more to mail-order (ehem, "direct to consumer") options.
I ordered and built my YT Jeffsey with zero issues. A couple years back I had a great experience ordering and building my Polygon T7 as well. Not all direct to consumer brands are bad. Pretty sure if you got a higher end Canyon those problems are less likely.
An excellent presentation answers the first question posed, but leaves you with other questions. For example, how much would an a la carte' build cost for the bike you want? New or used parts, just equivalent quality and functionality. Basically a J.C. Whitney Hot Rod, but with a bike.
Is #46 up to the task??
Definitely a whole lot of money. Those things are called "Boutique" bike for a reason :D
Some 11 and 12 speed powertrains have the same range just smaller steps in between 12s. I think that was the case with Shimano deore
DOD and FortNine, thank you for a high quality bike content and a fairly honest review. The only thing that bothers me is that you recommend clunky plastic SX drivetrain over reliable and fairly robust 11spd Shimano... The "not fit enough" argument can be dealt with a smaller sprocket at the front, if it's that bad.
exactly, good 10/11spd is way better than cheep 12s. At some points he sounded like car guy reviewing a motorcycle. Not always more is better.
@@naskicha468 I think it's more likely that they wanted to make a video specifically showing the downsides of direct-ordering a bike from overseas, and so justified it by requiring specs that could only be found on that bike.
That being said, it was an excellent video and I do not mind the manipulation, if there was manipulation, at all.
i managed to get a Scott Spark 970 under €1900 at a sale in autumn 2022.
Biggest mistake was assuming came correctly assembled.. I attached the front wheel and bar and went out and rode. Sub 200km later spokes started to come loose and the dropper cable started causing problems.
Next bike I'll probably buy from a bike store.
i appreciate the mindfulness that beginner/intermediate riders (myself included) have different needs, wants, and budget constraints than experienced and competitive racers.
I love how FortNine has become somthing of an ensemble cast as of late.
They gotta come up with something, it's been years since they've done any sort of actual riding outside making a review.
67.5* HTA is steep nowadays... my how things have changed. I remember when my ROS9 at 69*ish was SUPER slack.
Not the content i subscribed for but still just as high quality
Did enjoy
I was skeptical about push bikes on this channel but I'm actually really enjoying it
I think these bicycle things might have potential, but if you put a motor on there it would be awesome
Imagine that! LOL
The duties factor might be a good idea for a video. Try to see if in Canada there are any bike manufacturers to be had and see if they are worth consideration.
That was a great video.
Thank you!
-DOD F9
The excitement of seeing a new Fortnine video uploaded quickly followed by the disappointment of finding out it's a FortNOT video.
Thry did put the cheap and heavy sram BB on the stoic, first update if you get this bike change the BB and cranks for a hollow one.
First, I love that you're doing MTB reviews now, please keep them up!
Second, as someone who regularly joins local group rides, I can't say how much I agree with this review. Canyon does make legitimately good bikes, but when you factor in hidden costs, they aren't any better in price to performance - and one final hidden cost you missed: I found that most local bike shops are happy to help you with "free" quick tune ups and adjustments and advice on how to progress when you have supported them by getting a bike with them. And that advice and those quick tune ups can be invaluable to keeping newbies in the sport!
I was so trigger happy to give this a thumbs down because of "Canyon" in the title. Thank you for coming full circle at the end and not being one of those channels that is easily bought by a new direct to consumer brand and forget about what local bike shops mean... a local business (most of the time) that hire local people, and is a hub for new and experienced cyclist to meet and learn from each other.
Like buying anything expensive from another country you're likely to get taxed on arrival. This is mentioned on Canyon's site during purchase too, not a hidden cost, you agree to it when you complete the purchase. I love my Canyon. Exceptional bikes!
Great video DOD! Love the style and humor. For me it's a fun addition to the channel.
"look at all those colours" i got the reference from scram 411 video😂
I didn't see it mentioned, so shoutout to Obsession bikes at the end there. Ooh the Roscoe looks pretty great in that Mulsanne blue.
Lower Lonsdale represent!
Still have a stumpjumper from 30yrs ago. Need to lower seized seat and start riding again. 7spd no schocks.
Some pretty tricky stunts, I’ve never tried riding ( a bike ) backwards.
Found out fast that even swapping hands from normal right hand to right bar grip, left hand to left, led to an immediate unrecoverable situation. That seemed enuf fun 😊
Dude this bike is sick! I wish i could afford it man!
Still don't have any interest in mountain bikes, still thoroughly enjoy an informative, fun, well made video by someone who is passionate and enthusiastic about their subject. Well done, and keep up the excellent quality, inclusive videos - take note Evil Overlord RyanF9!
More of this!!! 😂😂😂😂 refreshing!
I bought a direct to consumer bike a polygon premiere 5 I still had a bike shop look it over because it did need some adjustments
I don't see how a SunTour fork is a no-no. Yes they are generally heavier and less "refined" as the overpriced brand items but they are stout as and will probably be less maintenance than brand shocks.
And when we talk mid and top range Suntour, they are even better performing and lighter than RS or Fox of same price. People just know the very lowest tier XCM/XCT and assume the rest is no different.
Although when we talk top of the range RS, the competitors are rather Ohlins
Very nice video.
I like the bicicle man a lot!
He cool.
You need to do a yearly update on motorcycle communications gear gear!!?!!?
That stuff about the flat head screw was just to drive engagement, right? Please
Good stuff
I can't wait for Bike9 to be it's own channel
I didn't realize you'd have to pay the 7% PST on an imported bike; is that becuase it's imported as "bike parts," which I don't think are exempt from PST?
Let it be known I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I was interested the whole time
Feel the same. Where are the torque and HP ratings?
@@bjb7587 It depends how hard you push down on the pedals. Riding MTB's is harder then riding motorcycles.
@@1dameister1 of course I was joking, comparing an MTB review to a motorcycle review.
If I had my choice, I would ride an MTB rather than a motorcycle. But at age 75, that time has passed. Sure enjoy my touring motorcycle, tho I recognize the danger, certainly far higher than a bicycle.
Keep the shiny side up.
@@bjb7587 Thanks you too.
Love the human powered bike content!
I'm learning more about bicycles this way.
But I'm still going to spend my riding time on motorcycles!
Deore 11-sp has a 11-51t cassette. The cassette on the Stoic is 11-50t, so the SRAM 12-speed has LESS range.
Fantastic!
Where's the motor?
The rider is the motor 😂
I love that F9 is expanding to bikes - without the engines. MTB is pretty specialized - I'd love to see you do some touring bicycle reviews too - the Harley Davidson of cyclists bicycles (highly modded).
What about a Commencal Meta HT??
Great commentary on putting a bike together instead of the LBS doing it for you, this is something you grow into in the sport with experience, I think much more so than with motorcycles. Note Jenson which advertises ready to ride is closer to that 95% than Canyon is however when you have handlebars where the rise is pointed at you instead of up you have to wonder if Jenson bike builders know their ass from a hole in the ground and unlike the Canyon Marin does have it's logo and degree indicator lines to orient handle bar placement. So beware in direct to consumer purchasing that even if they build for you to ship that you might still need a trip to LBS for something. In my case it was the tubeless setup on the tires I asked for that they did not perform. Also very good video on laying out the extra costs that advertising doesn't lie about but has no interest in revealing to the consumer. Disagree with you on the LBS though in the sense that YMMV. Despite the current economic disadvantages it's surprisingly there are LBS's that don't really meet the mark on customer service.
Is this worth it for €1150?
In europe that's the price now.
I was thinking about this one or the stoic 2. But i want dropper.
"DIY cure for Peyronie's disease" had me dying
Great review and agree on going to the local bike shop
Beg to differ on the drivetrain though I would choose 11 speed over 12 for better reliability in shifting, and if the gearing is too hard for the climbs, change the chainring for a smaller one and voila!
just on specs, I think the nukeproof scout comp stacks up better
11 speed? No, not enough!
12 speed? Ah, yes
When 11-51 range of Deore is meant for fit and experienced riders, but 11-50 of SX is just right for beginners
Yeah, that was odd. Was expecting him to go 2x10 or maybe 2x11, which actually gives much more range instead of 1x12 that gives the same range with slightly tighter spacing at much higher cost and lower durability...
As somebody who doesn't ride a motorcycle but mainly watches for the production value, I'm here for the biking content :P
In this hardtail price range I'd go for a Rocky Mountain Growler 40 (or 50 if it's a previous year discount), can even go into a local shop and most likely sit on one. It's a deceptively capable bike going downhill.
Agree. Or get a growler 20 and buy a fork. Lots of great deals on forks on FB or Pinkbike.
I bought the Stoic 3 last year and put the 35 silver tk fork on my brothers mtb, then I bought a second hand Yari RC Debon Air & front wheel for 450€ (from a Haibike ALLMTN 6 CARBON) and put it on the Stoic 3. It's pretty good. The Stoic 3 costs 1300€ in Europe, so even with the upgraded fork I stayed below 2000€ and was able to switch my brothers 500€ bike from a coil to an air fork. I initially wanted to buy the Stoic 4, but the Pike fork just didn't feel right for downhill. I'm quite happy with my setup now.
Two of my three current bicycles are from BikesDirect. One beginner trail bike and a road bike. I like them both and the shipping was free. I held off for years on my first purchase, finally decided that for $1500 and up I was NEVER going to spend that kind of money on a bicycle, therefore the bike shops were never actually going to get that money, so I should stop worrying about supporting them and ordered an $800 bike from BD. Component and build-wise it was IMO about equivalent to the $1500 bikes from the bike shops.
I have not used the trail bike much but I have about 15,000 miles on the road bike and it's been flawless over sometimes questionable road surfaces.
I would like to support local shops, but not at double the price.
As for community, I'm an introvert and actively avoid groups when riding, and I have never found a problem that the bike shop can solve better than me. In fact once I had a problem I couldn't figure out, took it to the shop, the mechanics there couldn't fix it either, I came home and figured it out on my own.
"As for community, I'm an introvert and actively avoid groups when riding" HEAR HEAR. Watching FortNine videos is as close to a group motorcycle ride as I get. I do NOT ride with other people.
Man, I gotta say I love the bicycle video! Biking is a good way for us motorcyclists to touch grass. The work required to pedal helps to appreciate the magic of a motor!
Having worked as a bike mechanic myself, I absolutely recommend spending those five hours more to get to your local shop and try out some bikes. Then get to another one, and try out even more bikes. Especially if you're not a mechanic, assembling bikes yourself is a pretty demanding thing to do. Trusting your front teeth to a local mechanic makes your ride less worrisome and ensures that their shop might still be around when you're really looking for someone to fix your bike. Cheers from Germany!
Never gonna Mountain Bike, but love the videos.
Was not the direction I imagined that review taking. Stellar nonetheless. Affordable bikes should have been a priority long ago, but now maybe that the economies of scale are here, we're beginning to see a change in the wind.
I appreciate the moral of the story at the end. The LBS is still relevant and valuable. ❤
In Europe things are different. I J-U-S-T got a Bianchi Impulso gravel (full carbon) on a web-shop. It is the 2024 model, 10% discount on list price. Free shipment, in TWO days. It took me 15' to assemble, and was perfect. This is the 4th or 5th bike I bike from the net. I can state I have been always super happy and had no problems. Lucky? I do not know, but a few bikes from different shops are already a pretty good statistical basis. Conclusion: North America is different than Europe