Astros Deke Diamondbacks into Losing Chance to Appeal that Yuli Gurriel Left Early
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- The Houston Astros baited the Arizona Diamondbacks into losing the opportunity to appeal a runner's leaving third base early on a play that gave Houston a game-tying run. Article: www.closecalls...
The heads-up baseball play came when, after Houston baserunner R3 Gurriel had scored on a sacrifice fly by teammate Carlos Correa. As Diamondbacks pitcher Bradyn Sittinger stepped off the rubber to appeal Gurriel's early departure, Houston's new baserunner on third base, Kyle Tucker, took off for home plate and drew Sittinger's attention. Sittinger then threw the baseball to third baseman Josh VanMeter who focused on retiring Tucker and eventually chased down and tagged Tucker without ever having touched third base to appeal on Gurriel.
According to Official Baseball Rule 5.09(c), "appeals under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play." Because VanMeter made a play on Tucker by virtue of tagging him out, the D-Backs lost their opportunity to appeal on Gurriel because of this "play or attempted play."
There are two ways to appeal.
First is the traditional "delayed" appeal wherein a pitcher waits until the play ends, Time is called, etc., then after the ball is put back into play, steps off the rubber and throws to the base where the appeal will take place. That's what happened here and "any play or attempted play" that happens before the appeal is executed (before the fielder tags the base) will nullify the opportunity to appeal.
Second is the better way to appeal, which colloquially may be deemed the "real-time" appeal. This appeal occurs during the play itself in which the baserunning infraction occurred. To effect a real-time appeal, all one has to do is tag the base while the ball is still live during the continuous action created by and following the batted [or thrown, or pitched] ball.
The MLB Umpire Manual clearly identifies the continuous action of the original play (e.g., before time is called or the ball is returned to the pitcher on the mound) as exempt from the appeal's "play or attempted play" statute of limitations. Obviously, this continuous action exemption does not apply to delayed/traditional appeals after the play has ended.
Had Arizona 3B VanMeter simply tagged third base during the tail-end of the prior play while appealing to 3B Umpire Jeff Nelson that Astros R3 Gurriel had left early, Nelson would have ruled on the appeal then and there.
But because the Diamondbacks waited until "Time" was called and then the ball put back into play with the pitcher on the mound and next batter in the box, they became subject to the "play or attempted play" clause that Houston took advantage of when third base coach Omar Lopez sent baserunner R3 Kyle Tucker in order to distract Arizona from the planned Gurriel appeal and draw them into making a play to close the door on that potential appeal opportunity.
The Astros 3rd base coach had this same play happen against him when he coached in the minor leagues. He knew what he was doing. Dusty had nothing to do with this. Great move.
That's freaking genius. You're accepting the fact that you would've had 2 outs regardless if Tucker leaves or not.
One of the absolute smartest plays I have ever seen. That is KNOWLEDGE of the rules.. And fantastic explanation. Been in baseball over 30 yrs! I am a professional hitting coach and college rated umpire. I have never seen this actually happen. Heard it discussed but never seen in action. Another Gem, Gill!
Who are you a hitting coach for
@@davej3781 Throwing to an occupied base while in contact with the rubber assumes the pitcher is making a play on the runner. Throwing to an unoccupied base while in contact with the rubber, except to make a play on an advancing runner, is a balk. So while the base at which the appeal would be made is occupied in this situation, often times it's not. So say Tucker did not advance to 3B on the sacrifice fly in question, and the DBacks wanted to appeal at 3B...throwing to 3B without disengaging the rubber is a balk, and Tucker would have been awarded 3B. In an appeal situation, a pitcher should always disengage the rubber prior to throwing to a base to avoid any misunderstanding of intent or an inadvertantly committing an illegal action.
@@michaelhorsey5871 I am an independent instructor. Maybe better described as a mercenary lol? I have worked with all ages up to and including mlb guys. Have worked with numerous players from several different teams over the past 20 years.
@Mike Heathman Hey buddy. Yes when the pitcher is engaged with the rubber he is the "pitcher". For a righty he can direct step to third base as a pickoff move. But in either scenario, the appeal must be made while no offensive or defensive play has resumed. Why this is so smart is that the runner realized that the defensive team did not utilize the real Time appeal and once the pitcher re-engages the rubber the ball becomes live again he the runner is now able to make an offensive play. This runner taking off and forcing defensive play on him while making an offensive play then makes any appeal for the prior play invalid. IF the runner would've just stood there on the base without making an offensive move the appeal would still be valid, but he didn't. Also, had the pitcher thrown to third base and they stepped on the base it would work as the appeal even if the runner was running home since they made no play on the offensive move by the runner. Then they could've thrown him out at home after they got the out at third on appeal from previous play. A lot of players and managers do not fully understand the rules which is why Gil does such a good job. I think many do not realize that you can "Real Time" appeal so like you said, many go to the old step off the rubber appeal. Gil does a great job at the end of the video explaining how you can at least try to defeat this as well. I hope this answered your question. IF not write back and I will try to explain further in a different example. Also be aware that high school rules are different.
@@davej3781 is the legality of throwing to an unoccupied base while on the rubber in order to appeal codified in the rules anywhere? Because it would seem in direct conflict with Rule 6.02 (a)(4) which says:
“It is a balk when…the pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play”
The letter of that rule suggests that a throw to an unoccupied base while on the rubber is at a minimum an attempted play, and at worst, a balk. Either would kill any appeal attempt.
And another unrelated question…leaving early on a tag up is a reviewable play. How would the mechanics of that work? My assumption is that you have to appeal first, and then challenge if you think the call is incorrect. You can’t just initiate a challenge without the appeal first, otherwise there is really no call to challenge in the first place. But I don’t know for sure how that works.
Astros: We will trade you an out for that tying run.
DBacks: Deal.
Astros: No taksie backsies.
That is some 4D chess right there.
this is one of the most interesting plays you've reviewed on this channel. thanks!
Dusty Baker has been around this game a long time and would know every trick. This is straight from the Billy Martin playbook. I love it.
Dusty had nothing to do with that
"If your defensive prowess is strong enough" 4:28 is important: throwing directly to the third for appeal, which may result in a success ( -1 ), could likely allow Tucker to reach home safe ( +1 ) even if 3rd baseman throws to the catcher immediately after the appeal, because Tucker is a fast runner. If so, the resulted score would be the same (3-3). Maybe from the time when the third-base coacher murmured to Tucker, 3-3 was guaranteed. (could result in 3-4 if 3U said Safe to the appeal.) Real-time appeal seems better.
Also in high school, the defense doesn't lose an opportunity to appeal even if it does make a play on the runner, as Fed rules consider this play as having been initiated by the offense.
It would still be advisable for Tucker to go home even in the case of 2 outs. The appeal isn't a certainty; the Dbacks could have been wrong about Gurriel going early, or the ump might have missed it. So by sending Tucker home (even with 2 outs) you have 3 possibilities: (1) defense tags out Tucker instead of appealing, causing Gurriel's run to stand, (2) defense makes the appeal and are wrong, allowing Tucker to score for an additional run, or (3) the appeal is successful, removing Gurriel's run and ending the inning. Possibility (3) has the same outcome as Tucker not running home, so even if the other options are less likely, it is a no-lose situiation to send Tucker home.
This woulda been a lot easier for both casual fans and baseball aficionados to understand if it actually showed the runner leaving early or not. This is like arriving at the scene of a fender-bender without having seen the actual accident, and then trying to figure out whose story is accurate.
I've always wanted to do that. Ron Luciano wrote about a team doing it in one of his books.
Wouldn't the "option play" described at 3:58 be an "attempted play" on R3, nullifying the right to appeal?
@Mike Heathman yes, but as Gil points out, with less than 2 out, the offense can guarantee a run in this situation if the runner ignores the defense and runs straight home. Perhaps high rules IQ by offense, but seems unfair to defense to have such a situation where they can't prevent a run through proper appeal.
Also, at 4:13 Gil says defense must tag base before tagging runner. In addition, wouldn't he also be required to convey to umpire that the tag of the base is an appeal? Simply tagging the base is not sufficient, right?
It would seem so rare that the 3rd base umpire would realize the runner left early. The umpire probably hasn’t changed the decision based on that simple history. But….if it was that obvious, it’s a credit to the base runners and coaches to strategize that quickly and draw the defense to their trap.
I would assume he knew on this play. Regardless, in the MLB, a missed base or leaving early is a reviewable, following a proper appeal, so it doesn't actually matter if the umpire saw it or not.
Would have been nice if you actually showed if he actually left early or not on the sacrifice fly just sayin man.
Broadcast never got into that since there was never an appeal. We would have 100% shown this if it was available to us.
@@CloseCallSports yea that’s wierd they wouldn’t show a replay of it at least tho lol. I guess we’ll never know ha
I know it looked like yuli didn’t leave early and Omar Lopez just trying to look smart either way it cost the Astros this game
Broadcast did show it. I watched the game live and they showed a split screen. Yuli definitely left early.
@@bigmanclark5535 So they lost anyways? I wish the video producers would put up the final score.
In general, why don't they use the live-ball appeal more often? There doesn't seem to be any advantage to waiting for a dead ball and then appealing. Just wondering...
Gil question for you. If the Diamondbacks throw the ball directly to 3rd base on the catch does the third baseman have to ask the umpire for an appeal? If a runner is stealing second and a liner is caught by the first baseman he doesn’t ask for an appeal, we just call them out for not taking up. Is this a different situation? Thanks.
A touch call for sure. If the tag on the 3rd base bag looks deliberate, that may "unmistakably indicate[...] an appeal" (Rule 5.09(c) Comment). It may be another story if the fielder just casually touches the bag with his foot, perhaps in the act of stopping himself. Either way there will be arguments.
Here a question. If there was one out, same situation fielder catches for 2 outs, runner tagged early Tucker make it to third, immediately tries for home for home doesn’t make it for the third out, can they appeal for rhe 4th out or is once Tucker tagged the inning over?
Only during a real-time appeal (the pitcher does not take the ball back to the mound with all action being relaxed).
So with one out and runners on second and third, both runners advance on a fly ball to the outfield but R3 leaves too soon. The ball comes back into the infield and the third baseman immediately calls for the ball. R2 (now on third) sensing what may be going on, decides to break for the plate but gets tagged out in the process for the third out. The defense can still appeal on R3 leaving too early.
If instead the action becomes relaxed with the pitcher on the mound with the ball (standard appeal situation) with the same thing otherwise happening, the appeal window closes on R3 leaving too early, and R3's run counts.
Couple things: 1) It would work with two outs for offense, wouldnt it? Just as above, had the fly ball been out 2....Then play developed just as it did, the tag of the rundown would have been out three and STILL no appeal allowed for the same reason. So no 4th out appeal and run scores. What am I missing? 2) Seems to me, it was an OBVIOUS appeal at 3b. There is always chatter on that play to "Step off and appeal to 3b". So an obvious appeal. You note as the 3b receives the ball from P, he is touching 3b. Why wouldnt that count. It was an obvious and deliberate appeal.
"Obvious and deliberate" generally means that the defense must communicate to the umpire the baserunning infraction while touching that base (or that offending runner if he is otherwise comfortably standing on one of the bases with no plans of stepping off).
The only instance where an appeal can be obvious without any communication to the umpire is during a play where the offending runner is trying to get back to his original base on a fly ball that is caught.
So I'm honestly curious. If the pitcher throws it to 3B, and 3B quickly steps on the bag and looks at the ump for appeal, then throws it home, is that OK? Does he have to wait for the ump's ruling? Does an appeal automatically stop the play?
TBH, I've always found the appeal process odd, especially for cases like this. Why does it have to be a live ball? Why does the ump not just call the runner out when he touches the next base if he missed (or left too early) the current one? To reference a similar situation, if a runner passes another runner, he's out--no appeal, no tagging, just plain out.
(BTW I'm taking issue with the rules themselves, not how umps are adjudicating them)
I believe that if the third baseman got the ball, touched third, and said “last runner left early” and threw it before the umpire had ruled, they could have gotten both outs. Something that umpires here who know more can chime in on.
What I can say, however, is this appeal doesn’t stop play unless it is the third out (which this one wasn’t)
when you appeal, the ball is still live. so they can appeal and still get the other runner out
Wasn’t the pitcher about to throw a pitch anyways? Wouldn’t that have made it so they couldn’t appeal because the next play started?
The pitcher had first stepped back off the rubber; therefore, there was no intent to throw a pitch whatsoever. In fact, the pitcher had intended to throw to third base for the appeal but then got distracted by Tucker breaking for the plate and went after him instead (not a balk, since the pitcher had already first stepped back off the rubber).
The NCAA has the same rule as the National Federation of High School where the offense initiates the play. It is rule 8-6b(4) in NCAA & 8-2 Penalty covers when the offense initiates the play.
It appeared to me that the pitcher threw the ball to the third baseman while he was obviously on the bag (appeal). Then they went after the runner, in case the appeal would be ruled "safe" by the umpire.
The fielder needs to make an appeal unmistakeable. That didn’t look like AJ unmistakeable appeal, it looked like a fielder initiating a rundown by throwing to third. Fielder on third needs to say “He left early” or something like that on this particular play
Pitcher chased down the runner on third, which is an attempted play. That attempted play negated the ability to appeal the previous play. As explained at the end of the video, had the pitcher ignored the runner and threw to third, that would have been an appeal. Unfortunately, runner may have scored and you end with the same result - which is the genius of the strategy by the 3rd base coach to send him.
But the third baseman did step on bag first...? So isn't that the appeal, and it should be double play.
An appeal has to be unmistakeable. I could easily infer the pitcher threw to the third baseman to initiate a rundown
The rule is not simply to touch the base after a play happened. You have to initiate an appeal either by verbally asking for it or making an action that unambiguously signals an appeal. Incidentally having your foot on the base when you catch a ball is not enough to constitute an appeal.
Cam, the use of the word 'appeal' is what tells you that there is nothing automatic about it. The fielder has to address the umpire and clearly indicate what he thinks the offense did wrong. That is what differentiates an appeal from other rule enforcements and the umpires are specifically required to wait until someone asks to enforce it.
Suppose a runner reaches up and knocks down the throw that is about to retire them or suppose the fielder grabs the runner to hold him up knowing that the throw won't get there in time to retire him. No 'appeal' is necessary on either play because the umpire has no choice but to call interference and obstruction respectively because of the realtime consequences.
Leaving a base early is different though. If a runner leaves a base early, all he has to do to cure the error is retouch before he or the base is tagged. If an umpire made any kind of signal whatsoever prior to an appeal, it would remove that portion of the game because the runner would either have to be out immediately for leaving early with no opportunity to fix his mistake or could not be put out because the umpire already decided and announced that the runner did not leave early. The only way to call such a play fairly to both teams is for the umpires to see what happens during play and then keep their mouths shut unless the defense makes an appeal under live ball conditions before any other play is made or attempted.
A more interesting question is what would happen if the 3B was really on the ball and clearly called out "Appeal" as he caught the ball on the base before leaving it to start the rundown. Did the "attempted play" start when the pitcher started running towards the foul line to cut off the runner, or was the appeal possibility still alive even after he got a bit distracted by the runner's antics? He did eventually throw to third, which was the intention all along!
@@Blck0Knght Yeah, but then the third baseman abandoned the appeal when he chased Tucker breaking for the plate, eventually tagging him out. Now, the third baseman may have actually been touching third base when he caught the throw, but that would be incidental contact of the base and not (by itself) constitute an appeal. For the appeal to stand, the third baseman would have to turn to the umpire and inform him of the infraction. Of course, by the time the appeal would be upheld, Tucker would've have already crossed the plate.
Thanks. Very insightful.
Great baseball move.
Wait, so you have to count on pitcher beating them down the foul line? And then count on runner either stopping or going back? What if runner just keeps running and runs into the pitcher. Tag applied, runner out, appeal opportunity gone.
This just seems too big a loophole to keep allowing.
Question: what’s an appeal require? For example, if when pitcher threw to third basemen, he has foot on base when caught, is that enough? Or does there have to be some sort of request, verbal or otherwise?
Ah never mind, the pitcher going after him is the “play”
The rules also state that simply touching a base is not sufficient for an appeal, so he would have to in some way convey stepping on the base is appealing the runners failure to tag up
@@kylen6430watch the video again and you will understand that the pitcher running toward the runner is not a play. There must a throw to a teammate or a tag attempt.
Could you please review Doug Eddings bad day behind the plate in BAL @ BOS yesterday (09/19)?
if the third baseman stepped on third base first , then it would count as an appeal and the ball is still live so they could get the other runner out
Mets just did this same thing with JD Davis nabbing a bag against the Dbacks in the midst of confusion surrounding a tag appeal
This seems like a loophole that needs to be closed before the start of next season. While I applaud the Astros for knowing the rules, this sort of high-jinx goes directly against the point of replay review, aka, getting the call right. Dead ball appeals seems to be the obvious solution, allowing the chance to appeal to not be messed with by the opposing team or botched by a balk, wild throw, etc.
This is not a replay review. Appeal plays have worked like this for a long time, from before replay review was even a thing. See ua-cam.com/video/yKAU2wSzyJg/v-deo.html.
@Mike Heathman I would abolish appeal plays altogether. Appeal plays are basically the offense getting away with a violation of the rules unless the defense calls them out on it. So instead, if a runner fails to touch a base when required, then as soon as he reaches the next base, he will be called out for failing to run the bases in order. (A runner missing home plate can be called out for abandoning the bases.)
Given the strategic nuances illustrated here, it seems the defense had only brief moment to appeal without allowing the offense the ability to pull this off. The offense needed to appeal beginning at 0:40 and before time is called.
If you are an umpire, what is your responsibility to be aware of this potential strategic sequence and, therefore, how much opportunity do you afford the offense to make an appeal before granting time? Once time is called, the defense is effectively screwed. It seems that the umpire owes the defense some reasonable opportunity to make the appeal before granting any offense request for time. Action may have appeared to stop, but the audio is pointing out that the defense is indicating awareness of runner leaving early. If so, do you grant request for time or not?
They could have before the third baseman threw the ball to the pitcher and used the REAL TIME appeal.
@@63076topher Yes, thanks. Gil did point out the value of the real time appeal before returning the ball to the pitcher. I apologize for not stating my question more clearly. If you are the umpire ... at about 0:40 F5 is standing beside R2 with the ball. Play is apparently stopped. R2 standing on the base and stable. What if R2 requests time at this point? Ball has not been returned to the pitcher. Do you, as umpire, grant the request for time?
I can't tell from the video if time is called here before pitcher gets the ball. Was time even called? I assume it was. Was a new ball put into play? Very little time after 0:40 the announcers are commenting that all the D'backs are pointing at 3rd base about runner leaving early.
So, my question is about the criteria an umpire should apply in this situation before granting a request for time by the offense.
@Chris Smith No a umpire needs the player to say WE THINK HE LEFT EARLY. Just throwing a ball to third means nothing.
@@TPinesGold They had the opportunity before throwing the ball to the pitcher. They made the choice not to than the player may not have said we are appealing the play or his foot may not have been in the bag when the pitcher threw him the ball.
@Chris Smith Did the player say he left early to the umpire to appeal he must.
Going after R3 it looks like 3B was standing on the bag when he caught the ball from pitcher. Appeal unsuccessful?
An appeal has to be obvious. F-5 was not appealing that R-3 left early. Even if he was touching third base an appeal must be apparent to an umpire. It was apparent the defense was making a play upon the new R-3. A play is throwing a ball to a teammate in an attempt to get a runner out, or stepping on a base to get a runner out. A balk is also a play.
@@rayray4192 thankyou
@@fifiwoof1969 hope you are well and happy today.
@@rayray4192 public holiday here - STOKED!
@@rayray4192 pitcher ran after new R3 and threw ball to F5 on the base. Can he ask ump about appeal at that point (didn't here) and then continue after R3 or would appeal still be unsuccessful?
The pitcher did throw to third, and the third baseman caught it with his foot on the bag before running at the runner. Why didn't that count as the appeal? Per your commentary, it should have worked.
Because the ball wasn't dead yet (that's the bit about live ball appeals he mentioned).
Edit: nevermind, I misinterpreted your comment and forgot the second time he got the ball, not first. That apparently comes under an appeal having to be unmistakable.
The rule is not simply to touch the base after a play happened. You have to initiate an appeal either by verbally asking for it or making an action that unambiguously signals an appeal. Incidentally having your foot on the base when you catch a ball is not enough to constitute an appeal.
Watch closely around the 2:00 mark and you will see that while he was close to it, the third baseman did not actually have either foot on the third base bag when he caught the ball.
At 4:55 3B does touch the bag before throwing to the catcher. Why wouldn't that have counted as an out?
When the pitcher ran towards the runner from third, that was considered "an attempted play", which would then nullify any chance for an appeal.
If the 3B stepped on third then threw the ball home, would it be an out on the appeal?
Yes
With all the questions on how the Diamondbacks might have solved this problem with the standard appeal (pitcher steps on and then off the rubber), or how it might not have worked with such a fast runner on third, wouldn't it make sense to just to a "real time appeal every time? What is the advantage of the standard appeal, and what disadvantage could the real time appeal have?
There is no disadvantage to a real time appeal. The reason it is rarer is because most of the time the defense realizes they might have an appeal after the ball is declared dead
@@rickhaavisto9023the ball doesn’t have to be dead. Once continuous action ends it’s not a real time appeal. And a pitcher does not need to step off the rubber- just step directly to third base and throw.
The video is 100% incorrect 3:55 in demonstrating how to correctly appeal a play with the runner breaking for home. The instant a pitcher deviates from throwing the the base in which the appeal will be made, it will be considered an "Attempted Play."
The correct way to do this is to have the pitcher step off the rubber and throw directly to 3rd base. The 3rd baseman should be screaming "APPEAL!" as he steps on 3rd. Then he needs to fire home to tag the runner before he reaches home plate.
Difficult to defend against when you don't know it's coming.
You're just repeating what he said at 4:28.
It seems as though the DBacks had a window to appeal and just chose not to do it
So why not just call time?
Go Stros!!!
Very smart by the runner. However they should allow dead ball appeals to avoid this. Now I understand why NFHS allows dead ball appeals
They had the option of the real time appeal all the third baseman would need to do is tell the umpire and step on the bag before he threw the ball back to the pitcher after the play.
Diamondbacks announcers are clueless.
The last comment about cutting them off at the foul line then throwing would not apply. Cutting them off at the foul line is making a play on the runner. They have to step off and immediately throw the ball to the base where you want an appeal to.
@Mike Heathman a play is a legitimate attempt to retire a runner. Running at a runner would qualify as a legitimate attempt to retire a runner.
@Mike Heathman yes, and running at a runner is attempting to tag him. Same as how a fielder need not be within arms reach of a runner to establish the runners path.
@Mike Heathman @Mike Heathman that's pretty easy to say, but I can just as easily say you're wrong. Which you are on the definition of a play. A play is defined as a legitimate attempt by a fielder to retire a runner. It does not require a throw, but it should be noted that a fake or feint to throw is not considered a play. Based off your definition, a failed attempt to tag a runner, as opposed to a base, would not qualify as a play. That's clearly wrong, and is directly refuted by plays in the manual. However, I don't think you actually meant it that way. I assume you understood that an attempt to tag a runner counts as an attempted play as well
With that in mind, another way of thinking about it. What is the fielder attempting to do as they run at the runner? Tag them, yes? So then, by running at the runner, that is an attempted tag. And thus, by the definition I believe you were trying to give, still an attempted play.
Let me pose another question. When does a runners base path become established?
@Mike Heathman Jaska Roder is not and has never been an authoritative source. It is commentary by some good umpires. It is certainly persuasive, but not authoritative, especially considering it has not received an update since 2017.
My definition of a play comes from the MLB umpire manual definition of a play or attempted play (the text of which can be found on baseball rules academy or by buying a copy of the book), supplemented by instruction at Wendelstedt this January. Note that the MLBUM is an authoritative source on the official rules of baseball. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe that the definition for a play or attempted play was added since the last edition of Jaska Roder came out. I know that the NCAA added very similar language this year to reflect the definition for OBR, and they are usually only a year or two behind OBR. I also don't believe that the entry is in my physical copy of the MiLBUM from 2019, meaning it was added last year, but it is possible that I may have missed it when skimming the book earlier today.
Here is the entire text of the section, not including the example plays.
"A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play."
Note that, while it does not explicitly mention running towards a runner as an attempted play, it does not exclude other actions as constituting an attempted play as long as they are a legitimate attempt to retire a runner. I cannot think of a way to interpret a fielder, with the ball, running at a runner as anything other than an attempt to retire a runner. I'd also like to point out that merely running towards a base to tag a runner (it does not mention actually arriving) is explicitly mentioned as an attempted play, lending credence to the idea that there need not be an physical swipe or other action denoting an active tagging motion to be considered an attempted play.
If this still is not persuasive enough, I would point you towards the MLBUM entry for Out of the Base path, which DOES explicitly call running at a fielder, regardless of if there was or was not a physical tag attempt made, an attempt to tag and a play. Here is the full text.
"When determining whether a base runner should be called out under Official Baseball Rule 5.09(b)(1), so long as the umpire determines that a play is being made on the runner and an attempt to tag is occurring, i.e. the fielder is moving to tag the runner, no physical tag attempt is required to call a runner out for leaving the basepath."
@Mike Heathman okay man, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how to interpret the manual. But, as I read it, the manual, when you combine the entry on play and attempted play with the entry on out of the base path, states very clearly that running towards a runner can count as a play. I do want to be clear on one thing. I'm not saying that one or two steps to drive the batter back to the bag necessarily counts as a play. In most cases, I'd say that is probably a feint or fake. But, if in the judgement or the umpire, the intent of the fielder is to run at the fielder to try to get him out, I read that as an attempted play per the manual, and the instructors at Wendelstedt this year agreed.
I think the pitcher should've just thrown the third ignoring the runner when he stepped off the rubber and that would've been the appeal. The part where he made a motion to the runner and ran at him took the appeal out of play since this was considered the next play of the game. It's tough to do when you see a runner running toward home.
Tucker looks to be about 1/3 of the way down the line before the pitcher responds at all. If they throw straight to 3rd, Tucker is still probably able to make it home before they can throw to 3rd, then throw to home, and get the tag, so they score anyways.
The first thing that happened was a throw to 3rd, and the 3rd basemen stepping on 3rd, the appeal should be allowed and then the out. The appeal should have happened.
The pitcher didn't throw right away, he first tried to chase Tucker which automatically counted as a play attempt
@Jose Urena i guess, i admit that i don't know that rule.
It's crazy that you have to appeal to get the correct call. The umpire should just call he didn't touch the base, or the runner left early. Why wait for the other team to call it out?
If you rule that a runner misses a base, when would the umpire say the runner is out? Because the runner is allowed to correct his own mistake...
What about a runner leaving early. Do you call the runner out as soon as he leaves early? During a break in action? When the runner reaches the dugout?
Runners can retreat to correct mistakes. Why should the umpire give the defense an out when they literally do nothing? At least now, you have to have seen the infraction, which is more than your solution/nothing
Because the defense has to make the putout.
Chris Smith They don’t stop play on balks...a balk is still a delayed dead ball in MLB (and may be in other rule sets)
Chris Smith But we also have situations where the offense has to say something to get a run added to the board.(Catcher’s Interference for example)
Pretty sure every team had a meeting about this the next day and brought up this very remedy.
Ron LeFlore once tried to steal home after a play where he had missed second base.
If you think you missed it, might as well try if they are appealing.
This reminds me of the play in the 2017 playoffs where Judge missed 2nd base when returning to 1st base to tag, so the Yankees had him immediately attempt a steal of 2nd since he would be out on appeal anyway, so that if the throw was wild or what have you he would have a chance to be safe.
I wonder if the attempted steal of home occurred with two out and a runner on first base with a run having scored on the previous play. In that situation, an appeal at second base would end the inning on a force play, which would nullify all runs scoring on that previous play; but if the defense got distracted by LeFlore trying to steal home and tried to make a play on him between third and home (and even if they were successful), then the appeal chance would be lost, and the run(s) that scored from the previous play would stand.
@@mikejunt A wild throw into center field doesn't necessarily close the window to an appeal opportunity, even if it may look like that a play was attempted on Aaron Judge trying to catch him stealing the very same base that he missed on the previous play. As Judge races towards third on the wild throw to centerfield (or just gets back to second as the throw comes back in), The defense just needs to step on second base (ignore Judge and whatever he's doing at the moment) and inform the umpire of the infraction on the previous play.
Put subtitles girl ! Gosh !!!
It looks as though when the pitcher threw back to the third baseman, the fielder had his foot on the bag. So technically, the pitcher did complete the appeal play and the first runner should be called out if he indeed left early. The 3rd base umpire was ALSO distracted from the intended play.
If you don’t know the rules of an appeal, you shouldn’t try to speak in “technically”.
An appeal must be unmistakeable for anything else...
You have to let the umpire know you're appealing. It's not enough to just simply touch the bag. It's not the umpire's job to make sure they appeal correctly or not, so he wasn't "distracted" by anything.. he was responding appropriately to the defense's actions.
Baseball IQ 101
Astros abusing rules again? Who would have thought that would happen..... some would call it smart baseball. Others would call it cheating. Then you got what they did in this game.
Tucker made a mistake. If he would have turned a bit earlier he might have a chance to run into the pitcher - so it would be obstruction.
You know what "they" say about if? If the queen had balls she would be king!!!
@@davej3781 HILARIOUS good point, I sit corrected!
Does this really surprise anyone watching the 2021 Diamondbacks?
I doubt any defense in MLB would have gotten this right in this exact scenario.
Imagine that! Notorious cheaters using the rules exceptionally to screw over the opposing team!
not even surprised to see the cheating astros do a play like this
Your tears taste wonderful
Not an Astros fan, but this isn’t cheating. This is trickery in the best way, at least from my perspective
Maybe other teams just need to learn how to cheat better.
git gud Kid
my tears? lol im not mad, it's a good play. im just saying it's not surprising coming from a team that thought stealing signs with ipads was okay lol get gud and you wont need to cheat for a WS dont be mad at a teenager on the internet about it
Guess we're cheating again 🤷
Not if it’s…legal. Did you even watch the video bruh? At around the 3:15 when he was explaining the REAL TIME APPEAL he noted how the 3rd baseman failed to step on the bag when they appealed the run, which would have ruled the ball dead and ended the play right there…instead he just threw it back to the pitcher, which keeps the play going, because it’s still a “live ball”, so the runner now has a chance to tag up.. it may seem “unfair”, yes, but it’s allowed. J.D Davis of the Mets just did it to, well, Oliver Perez of who else but the Diamondbacks of course! (You’d think they’d be a little bit more aware by now)
@@Lindwhore Read sarcasm much, bruh?
Pitcher is not required to disengage the pitching plate to appeal.
LOL!!!.....they made the diamondbacks look like fools!!!!