Vernon Wells tricked the ump before. Tried to make a diving catch the ball fell and rolled around behind him. He grabbed it and held it up. Umpire thought he pulled it out of his glove and made the out call.
@@legalizeweed3830 Many outfielders have tricked umpires like that. Poor sportsmanship, but at least the umpire saw them holding the ball in the end. In that case, the ump never saw the fielder with the ball (a fan was holding it) yet called him out.
@@justinbuford4684 yes sir. Circumstances screwed the umpire. I was 60 feet from home plate and I thought the runner dislodged the ball. Row 6 section 132.
unrelated to this but to all fellow umpire people… jim wolf was spotted in colombus today on a rehab stint and marty foster is rehabbing as well! some umps are making their way back
Indeed. If Moore wasn't so focused on arguing with a runner he'd already decided was no longer in play, he might've noticed. It's vaguely reminiscent of "wrestling" when it was called WWF. The script often dictated that "referees" would "not notice" blatant rules violations because they were too busy arguing with the victim's tag-team partner.
I guarantee that all 3 of the other umpires saw that the catcher never possessed the ball. No review is needed, he just needs to huddle up with the other umpires and the correct call can be made.
Don't guarantee because you will be wrong! The other umpires who are responsible for their runners touching their base, are watching for that touch. And as such are not watching the play at home!!
I was thinking the same thing, but there were two runners on and the other umpires had other responsibilities Watch the first base umpire. He is watching the BR touch first and doesn't look toward the plate until after the ball is kicked away. I agree with you though that one of the umpires, with a quick glance, would see the catcher did not have the ball.
@@alanhess9306 hey Alan hope all is well. Haven't read you in a long time... I have been very busy here in Miami. I trust you too over there out west....I agree with you
@@dougthegreat1808 Hey Doug, I've worked a couple of tournaments but I'm slowing down in my old age. It's hot and dry here and I can't tolerate the heat. I have been working as a UIC but due to umpire shortages I'm pressed into umpiring more often than I wish to. Anyway, good to hear from you. Take care.
@@alanhess9306 good evening Allan. I’m at a restaurant without earbuds so I can’t listen; only watch. I was at the game. Section 132 row 6. Is the rule interpretation that there was no actual tag attempt because the catcher did not posses the ball?
totally agree. Or, how at least 1 of the other umpires (3rd base ump preferably) didnt come down to give what he saw. And how come every time theres a whacky play, its not reviewable?????
There's no violation of Rule 6.01(i)(2) if the catcher blocks the pathway of the runner in a legitimate attempt to field the throw. Before the throw arrives, the catcher is in front of the plate, giving the runner a path. The throw takes the catcher into the baseline, which is the only time when he's obstructing the runner's path. That means there's no violation of the rule.
For a second when I heard that someone made a call for out of the baseline at home plate I was thrilled that somebody finally made this call, but then I heard the catcher did not have possession so the call was clearly wrong. As for the Ichiro example and others like it, should it not be sufficient to simply touch home plate and appeal to the umpire for the missed base rather than chase the runner around the circle at home?
For plays at the plate involving both a missed tag and missed base, you wait to see if both players go for the play. If they go for the play (the runner tries to touch home and the fielder tries to tag the runner) you let that play happen and call it as it happens. If they think the play is over and don't go for home, you signal safe and now the defense has to appeal for the out. This is the "hesitate and call safe" mechanic that allows for the play to rectify itself and only if it doesn't consider it a missed base.
@@juliensavoie4742 once a runner shows no intent to return to home plate which has been missed he can be our on appeal. Step on home plate with ball and appeal to umpire he missed home.
@@ingiford175 he is allowed to move into the basepath if attempting to catch the ball takes him that direction, which did kind of happen here cause the throw home was up the 3rd base line and not very good.
@@brianemerich2524 yes, and since the runner cant crash the catcher, what is he supposed to do? Run around him, like he did. It comes down to the plate umpire thought the catcher had the ball. One of the other 3 umpires shouldve been able to offer help, and if they didnt see it, then replay HAS to be allowed. Does anyone know if this was not allowed to be challenged?
I dont know if I have ever seen a player get called for going out of the base path inside the dirt circle before. Usually they seem to get a bit more leeway there.
Usually they are rounding third and heading for home so they’re wide to begin with. Very rarely does this play develop on an infield hit without a force.
it isn't leeway it is just the rule, there technically is no base path to be out of until the catcher at home has the ball, which is why this call is wrong on every level since the catcher didn't have the ball. the call out of basepath rarely applies in baseball outside of something like a rundown, because unless a tag is actively being applied there is no basepath.
@@josephgravina9834 on a forceout the call is technically interference. it they slide out of the baseline to far, or run up the grass going to first and get hit are interference calls. out of the basepath for this type of auto out only occurs if you go too far out of the way to avoid the tag of a player who already has the ball, which is why you almost never see it at home plate, because the catcher has to have the ball in the process of tagging before the runners base path is even established which means if the catcher never catches it the runner can go wherever he wants to get to home as long as it is on the playing field.
This is just a bad call altogether. The umpire should’ve gotten together to decide whether the catcher dropped the ball or not. Once possession has been established or unestablished then you make the call safe or out. If the catcher was blocking the plate, the runner would’ve been safe because he was blocking the plate and that’s illegal as well. This play changed the whole game right here though
@@kendog52361 I’m not entirely sure. Who knows with MLB. Based on the ejection itself, I wouldn’t think so. Whether the throw beat the runner or not, I know that’s reviewable. Possession of the ball. It varies. Something like a runner’s lane interference and running out of the base path I think is not reviewable. Any help @closecallsports?
my guess is that out of the baseline alone cannot be since it’s purely a judgement call. maybe the whole catcher not having the ball thing coulda been…but i think bud was too incensed to think about that detail, and the ump probably told him the judgement call was non-reviewable
@@daneash-scott1184 safe out calls at 1st base are also judgement calls and theyre reviewable. Im actually not sure what is and isnt allowed to be challenged anymore but if this WAS reviewable and Bud Black is too irate to think clearly, Id fire him
Forgive my ignorance, but if the catcher is blocking the plate without the ball isn't that obstruction? It didn't seem like the catch attempt brought him into the base path, and his tag attempt happened without the ball.
No obstruction under OBR rules. The catcher received the throw in fair territory before the runner arrived. There was always a path for the runner to reach the plate. A fake tag is obstruction in USA softball, but not in baseball...and in any case, the tag attempt by F2 was legitimate: the catcher thought he had the ball. The correct call would have been to get the crew together on the field and get it as right as possible.
@@teebob21 No obstruction? The catcher is blocking the plate without having the ball. How can one "receive the throw" when the ball is laying on the ground? "thought he had the ball"? He didn't, which is all that should matter.
The catcher also can't block home-plate without having possession the ball. The ump got a bit too pigeonholed on watching the runner's lane, rather than whether play was actually going to be made or not. Maybe if he was in the "proper keyhole", as Tmac would say... Hopefully he learned from it.
You can step into the base path in order to receive a thrown ball. Catcher didn’t do anything illegal I don’t think (besides the error on actually catching the ball).
@@stephenbeck7222 "By the rules of baseball, a runner has the right to an unobstructed path to a base. However, this right is not granted if the fielder guarding the base possesses the ball or is in the process of catching the ball." He was definitely in the process of catching the ball, but due to the catcher's error. The runner has the right to make his own base-path (supposing it's within 3 feet). I think... Hahaha I dunno really, I'm not an umpire.
@@ChigginWhengz if the throw home pulls the catcher into the basepath it is not illegally blocking home plate. the throw home was a poor one up the 3rd base line and the catcher just naturally slid that way. whether he did it intentionally (which would be smart) or not the throw clearly made him move into the position he was in which is allowed. The basepath is also only established at the point the catcher physically has the ball, which here he never did, which means out of the basepath technically isn't even an option for the umpire as an out call. this was a very fixable situation cause only 1 ump had to see the dropped ball and say nope he is safe, but they never even talked about it which is the worst part about this call since it isn't reviewable based on the call the HP ump made.
@@stephenbeck7222 Why are you harping so much on this point? The catcher not completing the play at home is exactly what allows for deviation in the runner's base-path. It's quintessentially the only reason I even mention him being unable to impede the running lane without possessing the ball. Since yes, the catcher is allowed to block IF he makes or is in the process of making the catch. Which he did not make (unless you're going to argue with me about that as well). The ball was never in his glove, nor did the runner interfere in any matter. Thus, he's allowed change his current path. Two people made mistakes here and the base-runner was not one of them.
anything deemed a judgement call will never be reviewable. only hope here was the umpires came together and someone told the HP ump the runner wasn't out of the basepath because the catcher dropped the ball and there is no basepath.
@@brianemerich2524 How can this be right when there are challenges on out/safe calls at 1st base all the time? Or a tag on a steal attempt? Clearly these are judgement calls also
they could have. And should have. But, I think the plate umpire didnt know the catcher didnt catch the ball until he was in the locker room after the game
My first motion as the HPU here would have been to ask the catcher to show me the ball, since I can't see if from that wedge angle. All about timing, and patience in making a call. Couldn't they do a review on a rule interpretation on whether there was actually a valid tag attempt made (without the ball)?
I think this was an ump with an ego who got called out and dug himself deeper. The manager probably said some unkind things but to the point, the ump f-ed up.
@@OffWalrusCargo when you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself. I was in row 6 section 132. Row 6 is first row beyond a four foot concrete walkway behind rows 1-5 which is all season tickets holders. No one sits in front of you. Plate umpire was calm and professional. Black was arrogant and tried to intermediate a new umpire. Good ejection. Black wasn’t around to see the Rockies come back and win. He was in the clubhouse watching the game and most likely not drinking Coors piss water.
@@OffWalrusCargo meant to say intimidate a new umpire. Section 132 is between the plate and the edge of the third base dugout. I was approximately 65 feet from the argument. Plate umpire was professional. Black was a little out of control. Good ejection.
We've always joked about the 36'' deviation statement in the rule book which is taught to umpires as, a step and a reach. If I'm a coach, my argument is going to be, that was only 34 inches, not 3 feet. Where's your tape measurer? Great breakdown. If the catcher doesn't kick the ball with his foot, I think there is a chance to correct the call but once the ball gets kicked from a blocked position, you (I would have) assume that the catcher lost the ball on the transfer and it rolled away. There is a chance in this situation to get every one together and ask, did anyone have the catcher dropping the ball, but for me to go and ask, I need a skip to come out and say, "Jobey, you were blocked, he never had the ball, can you get help" Bud yelling, "That's a bad call" Does not motivate me to check for help.
Would have taken an athletic move to get there but I’m thinking the correct positioning is follow the catcher’s right pocket around which would have placed the umpire in front of home plate and given him a view of the dropped ball.
The other umps had other responsibilities to focus on, they aren't just going to watch the play at home. You can't help what you don't see, and if you're U1 or U3 you're focused on the other runners coming to first or 3rd not the runner going home. Yes his view was blocked, hopefully he learns from it.
Is this a case where a manager coming in hot backfired or is there a policy about not getting together umpires in response to a manager request? I believe it isn't reviewable but it would be rather worrying if the umpires got together and didn't overturn this call.
Per the rules, "Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions." If it isn't reviewable there is no way for them to get together and change anything.
@@craigdupree1687 not true, unreviewable does not mean the umps can't change the call. they 100% could have gotten together and agreed the catcher was never in possession of the ball and called the runner safe. umpires can always convene and overturn their own call if they all agree. in this case agreeing the catcher never caught the ball is not a judgement and would overrule the basepath judgement call made incorrectly. umpires convene and overturn calls all the time without review, judgement or not. i also don't know where you pulled that rule from, but it isn't correct either. fair and foul can be reviewed on any ball in the air beyond 1st/3rd base and you sure as hell can review if a runner is safe or out. think you got that from a pre review rulebook haha.
@@brianemerich2524 They could have gotten together though the other umps likely didn't see what happened at home as they were busy with their own responsibilities.
@@ericwildfong disagree. Part of their responsibility is to also watch the play(ball) at the plate. You really think they are supposed to stare at their baserunner at all times? A quick glance, bag touched, now look where the ball is
It's also odd that we don't have a criteria for calling "out of the baseline". Is it where my feet are? My body? Is it a vertical plane or on the ground?
Soohhh, an idiot made it through umpire school, short season A ball, long season A ball, double A, triple A, and then made the show? M.L.B. hires idiots? Do you ever listen to yourself babble about subjects you know nothing about?
Just another stupid thing that cant be reviewed. The only things that should not be reviewable are things that cant be changed without affecting the rest of the play (even some of those are reviewable)
I thought the catcher couldn't block the plate without the ball. If you're going to force the runner to maintain a path to the plate and let the catcher block without the ball then you're asking for more collisions at home plate. It reminds me of when they decided to no longer allow the neighborhood play at second base and then were shocked that middle infielders started getting hurt by roll block slides. If you're going to eliminate the neighborhood play then runners have to make a slide towards the base. If you're gong to force runners to maintain a direct path to home plate then the catcher can't block without the ball
The catcher wasn’t blocking the plate until the throw took him into the base path. I believe that’s fine by the rules. The fact that he muffed the catch doesn’t matter for blocking.
The runner started to move away from the catcher before a tag, so now the runner has a new path and can't be called out for running more than 3-foot path. Timing is everything and MLB level is faster play then AAA level
@@johnleonard6878 Yes, but in your response you stated that the runner CAN'T be called out for running more than 3 feet outside the path. He can, if he runs more than 3 feet out of THAT basepath. Additionally, the basepath is determined only at the time of the tag attempt, so technically the basepath had not been previously established anyway, so your first point is moot. OBR: "A *runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs* and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely."
@@perrytilton5221 Ya, but whether or not he had the ball is not a judgement call. If base path requires possession of the ball to attempt a tag, then you should be able to review the objective fact of whether or not he had the ball in his glove.
Speechless. Other umps should see plain as day that catcher didn't have the ball before attempting the tag. However no one steps because they are protecting their own vs. getting the call right. A good crew chief would have gathered the crew to discuss. Pity.. decent UMP made a bad call, it happens. But too much reading of the rule book vs. seeing the play and exercising common sense.
Right..... cause you'd 100% see the ball wasn't caught from where he was standing with the catcher in the way. Getting the crew together may not have changed anything considering the other umps are focused on their own responsibilities and not the play at home. What if no one stepped up because they didn't see what happened? You can't change a call if you didn't see the play/attempted play. The crew chief has to balance getting the crew together and discussing with the speed of the game. Imagine if for the sake of getting the call right the umps got together after every call to discuss just in case it was wrong. Baseball games would take hours longer than they do already, as a fan do you really want that?
2nd and 1st base umpire is looking towarrd the plate. 1st base may have to check runner coming down the line. fair enough there. 2nd base had no call at his base. He had a decent view that catcher never had the ball and could have intervened. The problem is he didnt in order to protect his own or he wasn't watching (a problem). home plate UMP should have moved to 3rd base side given ball was hit to right side of infield. This may have given him a better view. Why a 5th UMP in the booth is needed - could have made a difference. Get the call right should trump time it takes to make it so.
@@waynefairchild887 PU was 100% out of position. U1 was watching the batter, U2 was the furthest from the plate so his angle is questionable, U3 was watching R2. MLB doesn't have enough umps to put a 5th in the booth. Hopefully, PU learns from it.
2U was looking at home. If he can't see 90 or so feet, that's unfortunate. In general i agree with your comments - as noted PU is not a bad UMP just and unfortunate call and hope he learns. Would be nice to hear post game from umps but we all know bthat will never happen.
@@waynefairchild887 Yeah, it's not likely to happen. I've never stood where U2 was so I'm not sure what the view of home is from there, and who knows what U2 was thinking about at the time. If U2 did see something hopefully they also use it as an opportunity to learn and improve. I can say it can be difficult to see what happens at home from the field especially if dust gets kicked up, not that there was dust in this particular case.
Another play, another grey line for what's reviewable and what's not. And rather than discuss the call, the crew doesn't get together until after Black is tossed. All-around bad handling.
it isn't a grey area, the basepath is a judgement call which is never reviewable just like a check swing. the second part of your statement is 100% true here, the crew needed to spend 1 minute talking to each other and this was fixed, since it was blatant that the catcher clearly neve had the ball. the so called veteran that steps in after black gets ejected is 100% at fault for this whole situation since he is in charge.
technically if no one had the ball the runner didn't even have a basepath to stay in. the catcher by rule is allowed to move into the baseline if attempting to catch the ball takes him in that direction, which this kind of did. the miss here was the fact there was no basepath for the runner to be too far our of and why it was a bad call.
There is no baseline. There is no base path in this case play either. A runner establishes his base path why a defensive player possess the ball and attempts a tag. There was no tag because the catcher did not glove the throw.
pat hoberg? john libka? lance barrett? the new generation of umpires are amazing. ur just like the rest of the umpire haters. no matter how good the umps are, u always find a problem with it. umps have been getting increasingly better but all u guys can find are the problems.
Younger Umps are getting better at calling balls/strikes statistically than the older ones, but all that gets buzz is the bad stuff (which is somewhat reasonable)
@@tw1nn319: No, I’m not a hater. Been watching baseball since the late 60’s. Today’s umps take things personally way to often, and knowing their Union protects them from being sent back down (should they need more experience) causes them to mess up a lot. Some of them are not mlb ready yet. The “I feel” part of the PGRs proves it.
@@TERoss-jk9ny So who would you replace the aging MLB umps with? If not the "new generation" surely some of the other almost non-existent umps in the minors.
@@TERoss-jk9ny some umps have quick triggers, some don’t. Has nothing to due with their age. Plenty of old guys also have quick triggers. Umpires are getting better but you guys always find a problem
I never really did liked Bud Black when he managed the Padres and he still sucks as Rockies manager whatsoever. However, I defend him for recent ejections like he did a few hours ago.
You know what might be helpful in these videos? *BLUF:* Bottom Line Up Front. State clearly that the umpire got it wrong or right. Otherwise, we're just guessing all along. Then you have to go back and watch with that in mind. I get that the title gives us a clue. It's just good story telling and teaching to do it this way. And then before we can even figure that out, we're on to past clips when again we don't know until the end if the ump was right. It's all very confusing. I know what I'm saying is missing might seem obvious to you all but setting the stage is so important in telling a story. And it helps--not hurts--to give the ending away early on these types of things. IDK, maybe you're trying to drive people to the website.
There was no reason for Mr. Meals to be down there. Argument didn’t involve him. Only reason he should be down there is to get the crew together to overturn this terrible call since it can’t be reviewed.
Overturn with what? Who would have seen something different? By no means is the call right but you can't overturn something you didn't see. Hopefully, the ump learns from it
@@ericwildfong well the catcher didn’t have possession the ball. Everyone saw that. 3rd base umpire should’ve seen what the plate umpire saw. Regardless the crew needs to meet over that.
@DJTexan 4202 Right..... so the 3rd base ump who's focusing on R2 tagging 3rd should have seen what happened at home. Why exactly does the crew need to automatically meet over that?
@@ericwildfong this is a big play. The umpire called it too soon 3rd base umpire saw the tag then he should divert attention to where baseball is going. If 3rd base ump didn’t see it then someone else had to besides plate umpire. Regardless on a play like this you need to get together to discuss it because this was a bad call. It’s dumb that this play can’t be reviewed.
@@DJTexan Who's to say when R2 touched 3rd and U3 could "divert his attention", also let's not forget the potential for obstruction (though unlikely) from F5 on R2. U1 has the BR to deal with, U2 may have seen it but he's got R2 should he return to 2nd or be obstructed by SS (again unlikely) not to mention he's furthest from the play across the diamond. How would you define a "play like this" where it's quite possible no one saw anything to overrule PU, but the crew should still meet? It seems your favourite word is "bad call" but how do you know a call is "bad" if you didn't see it happen?
The catcher, by his motion, believed he had the ball. The runner, by his motion, believed the catcher had the ball. The umpire believed the catcher had the ball. And frankly, there's avoiding a tag and there's avoiding a tag. If a player is caught in a pickle, when the ball is in the air it doesn't give him the right to suddenly run directly away from the base path.
@@Subangelis yay... another person who thinks every call should be perfect. Yes, belief matters. It causes you to make decisions, like running far off the base path. You don't get to have your mistakes undone by an interpretation of a rule that completely ignores the intent of the rule.
@@tervalas most of what you said was fine, but by definition that baserunner can go where ever he wants on the field of play because there is no basepath until the catcher actually catches the ball (ball in the air is meaningless as an argument). meaning the last comment you made is 100% incorrect and why this call is a simple fix because one of the field umpires had to see the catcher dropped the ball and the umps just needed to talk it out and the call is then made correctly. the runner was not "avoiding" a tag in this situation because you can't make a tag attempt with no ball no matter what your belief is. this isn't about a perfect call, and clearly you don't actually understand the applicable rules in this situation based on your dumbass second comment. don't try to insult someone over something you don't even understand yourself. angel hernandez umpires on belief, the belief that he is a good umpire, there is a reason he is the worst ump in baseball because belief is meaningless when a ball never entered a glove. you make a call based on what you see not what you believe that is why they get paid a fortune to do their job.
Excellent breakdown and analysis, CCS! And loving the comparison with the Ichiro play at the plate as well.
Oh man, I’d forgotten about that crime of a call at 2:26. Just beyond inexcusable. Thank you for tying that in.
Vernon Wells tricked the ump before. Tried to make a diving catch the ball fell and rolled around behind him. He grabbed it and held it up. Umpire thought he pulled it out of his glove and made the out call.
@@legalizeweed3830 Many outfielders have tricked umpires like that. Poor sportsmanship, but at least the umpire saw them holding the ball in the end. In that case, the ump never saw the fielder with the ball (a fan was holding it) yet called him out.
"Baseball's Universal Rule: Angel Hernandez is Everywhere" EPIC! 👍
Learn something new every time I watch these.
Really is a great learning site. I was seated 60 feet from home plate and I’m learning from this video.
@@rayray4192 I’m an umpire at HS and DIII level and I’d probably have missed this too.
@@justinbuford4684 yes sir. Circumstances screwed the umpire. I was 60 feet from home plate and I thought the runner dislodged the ball. Row 6 section 132.
unrelated to this but to all fellow umpire people… jim wolf was spotted in colombus today on a rehab stint and marty foster is rehabbing as well! some umps are making their way back
"Keep your eyes everlastingly on the ball."
Rule #1 of umpiring
or at least know where it is lol
Indeed. If Moore wasn't so focused on arguing with a runner he'd already decided was no longer in play, he might've noticed. It's vaguely reminiscent of "wrestling" when it was called WWF. The script often dictated that "referees" would "not notice" blatant rules violations because they were too busy arguing with the victim's tag-team partner.
I guarantee that all 3 of the other umpires saw that the catcher never possessed the ball. No review is needed, he just needs to huddle up with the other umpires and the correct call can be made.
Don't guarantee because you will be wrong! The other umpires who are responsible for their runners touching their base, are watching for that touch. And as such are not watching the play at home!!
I was thinking the same thing, but there were two runners on and the other umpires had other responsibilities Watch the first base umpire. He is watching the BR touch first and doesn't look toward the plate until after the ball is kicked away. I agree with you though that one of the umpires, with a quick glance, would see the catcher did not have the ball.
@@alanhess9306 hey Alan hope all is well. Haven't read you in a long time... I have been very busy here in Miami. I trust you too over there out west....I agree with you
@@dougthegreat1808 Hey Doug, I've worked a couple of tournaments but I'm slowing down in my old age. It's hot and dry here and I can't tolerate the heat. I have been working as a UIC but due to umpire shortages I'm pressed into umpiring more often than I wish to. Anyway, good to hear from you. Take care.
@@alanhess9306 good evening Allan. I’m at a restaurant without earbuds so I can’t listen; only watch. I was at the game. Section 132 row 6. Is the rule interpretation that there was no actual tag attempt because the catcher did not posses the ball?
I am surprised that the crew didn't huddle and discuss. Seems like the do for a lot less.
totally agree. Or, how at least 1 of the other umpires (3rd base ump preferably) didnt come down to give what he saw. And how come every time theres a whacky play, its not reviewable?????
the one making call has to ask
@closecallsports 1 more issue: Obstruction on the Catcher for blocking the plate without the ball?
There's no violation of Rule 6.01(i)(2) if the catcher blocks the pathway of the runner in a legitimate attempt to field the throw. Before the throw arrives, the catcher is in front of the plate, giving the runner a path. The throw takes the catcher into the baseline, which is the only time when he's obstructing the runner's path. That means there's no violation of the rule.
@@voxelation fair enough
I love that you compared it to the Ichiro play. That's the first thing I thought of when I saw this Rockies play.
So was this play not reviewable? If not why do they have replay in the MLB to begin with..smh
still waiting for someone who knows to respond to this question
For a second when I heard that someone made a call for out of the baseline at home plate I was thrilled that somebody finally made this call, but then I heard the catcher did not have possession so the call was clearly wrong. As for the Ichiro example and others like it, should it not be sufficient to simply touch home plate and appeal to the umpire for the missed base rather than chase the runner around the circle at home?
Wouldn't be missed based until the runner steps off the field? that runner would still be live
For plays at the plate involving both a missed tag and missed base, you wait to see if both players go for the play. If they go for the play (the runner tries to touch home and the fielder tries to tag the runner) you let that play happen and call it as it happens. If they think the play is over and don't go for home, you signal safe and now the defense has to appeal for the out.
This is the "hesitate and call safe" mechanic that allows for the play to rectify itself and only if it doesn't consider it a missed base.
@@juliensavoie4742 once a runner shows no intent to return to home plate which has been missed he can be our on appeal. Step on home plate with ball and appeal to umpire he missed home.
Also: Catcher did not give a clear path to the plate. The runner should have been safe
To my understanding, if he had possession of the ball, he could block the plate. He never had that.
@@ingiford175 he is allowed to move into the basepath if attempting to catch the ball takes him that direction, which did kind of happen here cause the throw home was up the 3rd base line and not very good.
@@brianemerich2524 yes, and since the runner cant crash the catcher, what is he supposed to do? Run around him, like he did. It comes down to the plate umpire thought the catcher had the ball. One of the other 3 umpires shouldve been able to offer help, and if they didnt see it, then replay HAS to be allowed. Does anyone know if this was not allowed to be challenged?
I was watching this live and was hoping I’d see a breakdown here! And you didn’t disappoint. Great stuff. #angeliseverywhere
I dont know if I have ever seen a player get called for going out of the base path inside the dirt circle before. Usually they seem to get a bit more leeway there.
Usually they are rounding third and heading for home so they’re wide to begin with. Very rarely does this play develop on an infield hit without a force.
it isn't leeway it is just the rule, there technically is no base path to be out of until the catcher at home has the ball, which is why this call is wrong on every level since the catcher didn't have the ball. the call out of basepath rarely applies in baseball outside of something like a rundown, because unless a tag is actively being applied there is no basepath.
@@josephgravina9834 on a forceout the call is technically interference. it they slide out of the baseline to far, or run up the grass going to first and get hit are interference calls. out of the basepath for this type of auto out only occurs if you go too far out of the way to avoid the tag of a player who already has the ball, which is why you almost never see it at home plate, because the catcher has to have the ball in the process of tagging before the runners base path is even established which means if the catcher never catches it the runner can go wherever he wants to get to home as long as it is on the playing field.
This is just a bad call altogether. The umpire should’ve gotten together to decide whether the catcher dropped the ball or not. Once possession has been established or unestablished then you make the call safe or out. If the catcher was blocking the plate, the runner would’ve been safe because he was blocking the plate and that’s illegal as well. This play changed the whole game right here though
Was this either reviewable or eligible for a rules check?
@@kendog52361 I’m not entirely sure. Who knows with MLB. Based on the ejection itself, I wouldn’t think so. Whether the throw beat the runner or not, I know that’s reviewable. Possession of the ball. It varies. Something like a runner’s lane interference and running out of the base path I think is not reviewable. Any help @closecallsports?
Nice job on the break down of the video but my question is could that have been challenged?
my guess is that out of the baseline alone cannot be since it’s purely a judgement call. maybe the whole catcher not having the ball thing coulda been…but i think bud was too incensed to think about that detail, and the ump probably told him the judgement call was non-reviewable
@@daneash-scott1184 safe out calls at 1st base are also judgement calls and theyre reviewable. Im actually not sure what is and isnt allowed to be challenged anymore but if this WAS reviewable and Bud Black is too irate to think clearly, Id fire him
Forgive my ignorance, but if the catcher is blocking the plate without the ball isn't that obstruction? It didn't seem like the catch attempt brought him into the base path, and his tag attempt happened without the ball.
Agree!
I like this better. You have obstruction on a play being made on a runner :shrug. @closecallsports thoughts?
I agree
No obstruction under OBR rules. The catcher received the throw in fair territory before the runner arrived. There was always a path for the runner to reach the plate. A fake tag is obstruction in USA softball, but not in baseball...and in any case, the tag attempt by F2 was legitimate: the catcher thought he had the ball.
The correct call would have been to get the crew together on the field and get it as right as possible.
@@teebob21 No obstruction? The catcher is blocking the plate without having the ball. How can one "receive the throw" when the ball is laying on the ground? "thought he had the ball"? He didn't, which is all that should matter.
The catcher also can't block home-plate without having possession the ball. The ump got a bit too pigeonholed on watching the runner's lane, rather than whether play was actually going to be made or not. Maybe if he was in the "proper keyhole", as Tmac would say... Hopefully he learned from it.
You can step into the base path in order to receive a thrown ball. Catcher didn’t do anything illegal I don’t think (besides the error on actually catching the ball).
@@stephenbeck7222 "By the rules of baseball, a runner has the right to an unobstructed path to a base. However, this right is not granted if the fielder guarding the base possesses the ball or is in the process of catching the ball."
He was definitely in the process of catching the ball, but due to the catcher's error. The runner has the right to make his own base-path (supposing it's within 3 feet). I think... Hahaha I dunno really, I'm not an umpire.
@@ChigginWhengz if the throw home pulls the catcher into the basepath it is not illegally blocking home plate. the throw home was a poor one up the 3rd base line and the catcher just naturally slid that way. whether he did it intentionally (which would be smart) or not the throw clearly made him move into the position he was in which is allowed.
The basepath is also only established at the point the catcher physically has the ball, which here he never did, which means out of the basepath technically isn't even an option for the umpire as an out call. this was a very fixable situation cause only 1 ump had to see the dropped ball and say nope he is safe, but they never even talked about it which is the worst part about this call since it isn't reviewable based on the call the HP ump made.
ChigginWhengz yes it’s clearly bad call by the ump. But not because the catcher was blocking the plate
@@stephenbeck7222 Why are you harping so much on this point?
The catcher not completing the play at home is exactly what allows for deviation in the runner's base-path. It's quintessentially the only reason I even mention him being unable to impede the running lane without possessing the ball.
Since yes, the catcher is allowed to block IF he makes or is in the process of making the catch. Which he did not make (unless you're going to argue with me about that as well). The ball was never in his glove, nor did the runner interfere in any matter. Thus, he's allowed change his current path.
Two people made mistakes here and the base-runner was not one of them.
That should be a reviewable play
anything deemed a judgement call will never be reviewable. only hope here was the umpires came together and someone told the HP ump the runner wasn't out of the basepath because the catcher dropped the ball and there is no basepath.
@@brianemerich2524 How can this be right when there are challenges on out/safe calls at 1st base all the time? Or a tag on a steal attempt? Clearly these are judgement calls also
Also, why could the crew not get together, to discuss if the ball was caught, to apply the rule correctly?
they could have. And should have. But, I think the plate umpire didnt know the catcher didnt catch the ball until he was in the locker room after the game
YOU SOULD HAVE WAY WAY MORE SUBS.....GREAT CONTENT
Umpire should’ve asked other umps their opinion.
Shouldn't the HPU be more behind the left of the plate, or behind the plate for this call? He's in no position to see a tag where he is, right?
David Ross was ejected from tonight’s game vs the New York Mets.
Review not possible on that play?
My first motion as the HPU here would have been to ask the catcher to show me the ball, since I can't see if from that wedge angle. All about timing, and patience in making a call. Couldn't they do a review on a rule interpretation on whether there was actually a valid tag attempt made (without the ball)?
I think this was an ump with an ego who got called out and dug himself deeper. The manager probably said some unkind things but to the point, the ump f-ed up.
@@OffWalrusCargo when you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself. I was in row 6 section 132. Row 6 is first row beyond a four foot concrete walkway behind rows 1-5 which is all season tickets holders. No one sits in front of you. Plate umpire was calm and professional. Black was arrogant and tried to intermediate a new umpire. Good ejection. Black wasn’t around to see the Rockies come back and win. He was in the clubhouse watching the game and most likely not drinking Coors piss water.
@@OffWalrusCargo meant to say intimidate a new umpire. Section 132 is between the plate and the edge of the third base dugout. I was approximately 65 feet from the argument. Plate umpire was professional. Black was a little out of control. Good ejection.
Don't ask for the ball. Watch the hand and glove and look for voluntary release. If the ball is in NEITHER, make the safe call.
We've always joked about the 36'' deviation statement in the rule book which is taught to umpires as, a step and a reach. If I'm a coach, my argument is going to be, that was only 34 inches, not 3 feet. Where's your tape measurer? Great breakdown. If the catcher doesn't kick the ball with his foot, I think there is a chance to correct the call but once the ball gets kicked from a blocked position, you (I would have) assume that the catcher lost the ball on the transfer and it rolled away. There is a chance in this situation to get every one together and ask, did anyone have the catcher dropping the ball, but for me to go and ask, I need a skip to come out and say, "Jobey, you were blocked, he never had the ball, can you get help" Bud yelling, "That's a bad call" Does not motivate me to check for help.
Would have taken an athletic move to get there but I’m thinking the correct positioning is follow the catcher’s right pocket around which would have placed the umpire in front of home plate and given him a view of the dropped ball.
Buy the New rule The catcher cannot block the plate unless he has the ball so yeah he's out of the baseline but he was trying to prevent contact
It's an embarrassment that the three other umpires didn't help the young umpire behind the plate, who's view was block. Period.
The other umps had other responsibilities to focus on, they aren't just going to watch the play at home. You can't help what you don't see, and if you're U1 or U3 you're focused on the other runners coming to first or 3rd not the runner going home. Yes his view was blocked, hopefully he learns from it.
Is this a case where a manager coming in hot backfired or is there a policy about not getting together umpires in response to a manager request? I believe it isn't reviewable but it would be rather worrying if the umpires got together and didn't overturn this call.
Per the rules, "Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions." If it isn't reviewable there is no way for them to get together and change anything.
@@craigdupree1687 not true, unreviewable does not mean the umps can't change the call. they 100% could have gotten together and agreed the catcher was never in possession of the ball and called the runner safe. umpires can always convene and overturn their own call if they all agree. in this case agreeing the catcher never caught the ball is not a judgement and would overrule the basepath judgement call made incorrectly. umpires convene and overturn calls all the time without review, judgement or not.
i also don't know where you pulled that rule from, but it isn't correct either. fair and foul can be reviewed on any ball in the air beyond 1st/3rd base and you sure as hell can review if a runner is safe or out. think you got that from a pre review rulebook haha.
@@brianemerich2524 They could have gotten together though the other umps likely didn't see what happened at home as they were busy with their own responsibilities.
@@ericwildfong disagree. Part of their responsibility is to also watch the play(ball) at the plate. You really think they are supposed to stare at their baserunner at all times? A quick glance, bag touched, now look where the ball is
If the catcher never had possession, isn’t he blocking the plate?
It's also odd that we don't have a criteria for calling "out of the baseline". Is it where my feet are? My body? Is it a vertical plane or on the ground?
basepath* and they teach you center of body.
That shouldn’t even matter since the catcher didn’t possess the ball.
@@AEMoreira81 he’s not talking about the call, just for the rule in general
@@tw1nn319 Thanks. Is that written anywhere?
David Ross ejected in cubs/Mets game!
That's the wrong call because the catcher doesn't have the ball in his hand.
Idiot umpire compounds his error by tossing the manager. 1. Why didn't he seek help from the other umpires? 2. Why the hell isn't this reviewable?
Soohhh, an idiot made it through umpire school, short season A ball, long season A ball, double A, triple A, and then made the show? M.L.B. hires idiots? Do you ever listen to yourself babble about subjects you know nothing about?
Just another stupid thing that cant be reviewed. The only things that should not be reviewable are things that cant be changed without affecting the rest of the play (even some of those are reviewable)
Place ur bets. I just wonder if some umps are betting on games.
I was at that game every one was mad it was a bad call.
And yes the Rockies won thankfully
Look closer. Moore never looked at the ball. His eyes are on Hillard. Moore had no idea where the ball was.
thanks Captain Obvious
I thought the catcher couldn't block the plate without the ball. If you're going to force the runner to maintain a path to the plate and let the catcher block without the ball then you're asking for more collisions at home plate.
It reminds me of when they decided to no longer allow the neighborhood play at second base and then were shocked that middle infielders started getting hurt by roll block slides. If you're going to eliminate the neighborhood play then runners have to make a slide towards the base. If you're gong to force runners to maintain a direct path to home plate then the catcher can't block without the ball
Another great point about mlb rules that need refining
The catcher wasn’t blocking the plate until the throw took him into the base path. I believe that’s fine by the rules. The fact that he muffed the catch doesn’t matter for blocking.
Where the clear path for the base runner???????
The runner started to move away from the catcher before a tag, so now the runner has a new path and can't be called out for running more than 3-foot path. Timing is everything and MLB level is faster play then AAA level
"Can't"? If you create a new basepath, you can never be called out for running out of the basepath?
@@MaydayAggro A runner can make his own path and change it before a tag attempt. Runner can't go more than 3 feet when a fielder is attempting a tag
@@johnleonard6878 Yes, but in your response you stated that the runner CAN'T be called out for running more than 3 feet outside the path. He can, if he runs more than 3 feet out of THAT basepath. Additionally, the basepath is determined only at the time of the tag attempt, so technically the basepath had not been previously established anyway, so your first point is moot. OBR: "A *runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs* and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely."
@@MaydayAggro Some umpires will call the runner out from the original base path and with a new path he has 3 feet-common since
The catcher was in the base path without the ball (Forcing the runner to go wide) and that in itself is a rules violation!!!!!!
not if he's making a play on a thrown ball (for MLB rules)
Guess it was not reviewable. What plays are reviewable? Seems like this would be a prime example one that should be.
Plays that are judgement calls are not subject to review. Such as determining if the SS had posession on a double play.
@@perrytilton5221 Ya, but whether or not he had the ball is not a judgement call. If base path requires possession of the ball to attempt a tag, then you should be able to review the objective fact of whether or not he had the ball in his glove.
@@perrytilton5221 and what sucks is sometimes these “judgement calls” is something objectively wrong can be there
Speechless. Other umps should see plain as day that catcher didn't have the ball before attempting the tag. However no one steps because they are protecting their own vs. getting the call right. A good crew chief would have gathered the crew to discuss. Pity.. decent UMP made a bad call, it happens. But too much reading of the rule book vs. seeing the play and exercising common sense.
Right..... cause you'd 100% see the ball wasn't caught from where he was standing with the catcher in the way. Getting the crew together may not have changed anything considering the other umps are focused on their own responsibilities and not the play at home. What if no one stepped up because they didn't see what happened? You can't change a call if you didn't see the play/attempted play. The crew chief has to balance getting the crew together and discussing with the speed of the game. Imagine if for the sake of getting the call right the umps got together after every call to discuss just in case it was wrong. Baseball games would take hours longer than they do already, as a fan do you really want that?
2nd and 1st base umpire is looking towarrd the plate. 1st base may have to check runner coming down the line. fair enough there. 2nd base had no call at his base. He had a decent view that catcher never had the ball and could have intervened. The problem is he didnt in order to protect his own or he wasn't watching (a problem). home plate UMP should have moved to 3rd base side given ball was hit to right side of infield. This may have given him a better view. Why a 5th UMP in the booth is needed - could have made a difference. Get the call right should trump time it takes to make it so.
@@waynefairchild887 PU was 100% out of position. U1 was watching the batter, U2 was the furthest from the plate so his angle is questionable, U3 was watching R2. MLB doesn't have enough umps to put a 5th in the booth. Hopefully, PU learns from it.
2U was looking at home. If he can't see 90 or so feet, that's unfortunate. In general i agree with your comments - as noted PU is not a bad UMP just and unfortunate call and hope he learns. Would be nice to hear post game from umps but we all know bthat will never happen.
@@waynefairchild887 Yeah, it's not likely to happen. I've never stood where U2 was so I'm not sure what the view of home is from there, and who knows what U2 was thinking about at the time. If U2 did see something hopefully they also use it as an opportunity to learn and improve. I can say it can be difficult to see what happens at home from the field especially if dust gets kicked up, not that there was dust in this particular case.
That's just terrible. Obviously the umpire doesn't know the rule and there is no excuse for that.
Ump was blocked. He punted the play.
That’s bad
Just more Padres baseball. Of course it involves Nola and Hosmer.
What about the catcher not giving a lane? He doesn’t have the ball and there is no place for the runner to slide.
in MLB, the fielder can be in the lane if he's receiving a throw (in NFHS, yes)
So kicked the call and double downed and ejected the manager despite being wrong.
As Colorado as it's going to get 🤦♂️
Ichiro was pre posey. He almost ran into the batters circle wtf
There was no tag anything is ridiculous play. This ejection is not even close
Why isn't this reviewable? What's the point of replay if you can't replay all plays. This should be on Jomboy's weekly dumb, because this is dumb AF
Robo Ump bros assemble... Angel Hernandez was used to show how you work that play at the plate correctly. This might confuse a few of y'all
... are robo umps aiming to call plays at the plate? I thought they were mostly aiming to call balls/strikes
Bad call obstruction by the catcher
Another play, another grey line for what's reviewable and what's not. And rather than discuss the call, the crew doesn't get together until after Black is tossed. All-around bad handling.
it isn't a grey area, the basepath is a judgement call which is never reviewable just like a check swing. the second part of your statement is 100% true here, the crew needed to spend 1 minute talking to each other and this was fixed, since it was blatant that the catcher clearly neve had the ball. the so called veteran that steps in after black gets ejected is 100% at fault for this whole situation since he is in charge.
@@brianemerich2524 Jerry Meale made one of the top 3 worst calls in MLB history
The catcher sold that play beautifully by reaching out and kicking that ball away when the ump wasn't looking. Absolutely brilliant
If he never had the ball, the catcher was in the path of the runner illegally, right?
technically if no one had the ball the runner didn't even have a basepath to stay in. the catcher by rule is allowed to move into the baseline if attempting to catch the ball takes him in that direction, which this kind of did. the miss here was the fact there was no basepath for the runner to be too far our of and why it was a bad call.
Oh wow 😂😂😂😂
He ran out the baseline clearly
There is no baseline. There is no base path in this case play either. A runner establishes his base path why a defensive player possess the ball and attempts a tag. There was no tag because the catcher did not glove the throw.
The current generation of umpires are a disgrace.
pat hoberg? john libka? lance barrett? the new generation of umpires are amazing. ur just like the rest of the umpire haters. no matter how good the umps are, u always find a problem with it. umps have been getting increasingly better but all u guys can find are the problems.
Younger Umps are getting better at calling balls/strikes statistically than the older ones, but all that gets buzz is the bad stuff (which is somewhat reasonable)
@@tw1nn319: No, I’m not a hater. Been watching baseball since the late 60’s. Today’s umps take things personally way to often, and knowing their Union protects them from being sent back down (should they need more experience) causes them to mess up a lot. Some of them are not mlb ready yet.
The “I feel” part of the PGRs proves it.
@@TERoss-jk9ny So who would you replace the aging MLB umps with? If not the "new generation" surely some of the other almost non-existent umps in the minors.
@@TERoss-jk9ny some umps have quick triggers, some don’t. Has nothing to due with their age. Plenty of old guys also have quick triggers. Umpires are getting better but you guys always find a problem
Catcher was blocking the plate without the ball at all. Truck his ass
That umpire should be relegated
I never really did liked Bud Black when he managed the Padres and he still sucks as Rockies manager whatsoever. However, I defend him for recent ejections like he did a few hours ago.
I didn't think MLB umps could get any worse... yet here we are. SMH
In terms of ball/strikes, younger umps are statistically better than the older umps, but one issue all umps have high ego/no accountability .
horrible call. catcher was blocking path before he had ball. thats interference
Interference is on the offense. The catcher is a defensive player.
A clown show behind the plate...clueless....
If the catcher didn’t have the ball was he not blocking the runners path to the base.
ooops
You know what might be helpful in these videos? *BLUF:* Bottom Line Up Front. State clearly that the umpire got it wrong or right. Otherwise, we're just guessing all along. Then you have to go back and watch with that in mind. I get that the title gives us a clue. It's just good story telling and teaching to do it this way. And then before we can even figure that out, we're on to past clips when again we don't know until the end if the ump was right. It's all very confusing.
I know what I'm saying is missing might seem obvious to you all but setting the stage is so important in telling a story. And it helps--not hurts--to give the ending away early on these types of things. IDK, maybe you're trying to drive people to the website.
MLB umpires are soft
Good call
There was no reason for Mr. Meals to be down there. Argument didn’t involve him. Only reason he should be down there is to get the crew together to overturn this terrible call since it can’t be reviewed.
Overturn with what? Who would have seen something different? By no means is the call right but you can't overturn something you didn't see. Hopefully, the ump learns from it
@@ericwildfong well the catcher didn’t have possession the ball. Everyone saw that. 3rd base umpire should’ve seen what the plate umpire saw. Regardless the crew needs to meet over that.
@DJTexan 4202 Right..... so the 3rd base ump who's focusing on R2 tagging 3rd should have seen what happened at home. Why exactly does the crew need to automatically meet over that?
@@ericwildfong this is a big play. The umpire called it too soon 3rd base umpire saw the tag then he should divert attention to where baseball is going. If 3rd base ump didn’t see it then someone else had to besides plate umpire. Regardless on a play like this you need to get together to discuss it because this was a bad call. It’s dumb that this play can’t be reviewed.
@@DJTexan Who's to say when R2 touched 3rd and U3 could "divert his attention", also let's not forget the potential for obstruction (though unlikely) from F5 on R2. U1 has the BR to deal with, U2 may have seen it but he's got R2 should he return to 2nd or be obstructed by SS (again unlikely) not to mention he's furthest from the play across the diamond. How would you define a "play like this" where it's quite possible no one saw anything to overrule PU, but the crew should still meet? It seems your favourite word is "bad call" but how do you know a call is "bad" if you didn't see it happen?
The catcher, by his motion, believed he had the ball. The runner, by his motion, believed the catcher had the ball. The umpire believed the catcher had the ball. And frankly, there's avoiding a tag and there's avoiding a tag. If a player is caught in a pickle, when the ball is in the air it doesn't give him the right to suddenly run directly away from the base path.
It doesn't matter what is believed by anybody, especially the ump., The ump has to SEE the ball, not believe it.
@@Subangelis yay... another person who thinks every call should be perfect. Yes, belief matters. It causes you to make decisions, like running far off the base path. You don't get to have your mistakes undone by an interpretation of a rule that completely ignores the intent of the rule.
@@tervalas most of what you said was fine, but by definition that baserunner can go where ever he wants on the field of play because there is no basepath until the catcher actually catches the ball (ball in the air is meaningless as an argument). meaning the last comment you made is 100% incorrect and why this call is a simple fix because one of the field umpires had to see the catcher dropped the ball and the umps just needed to talk it out and the call is then made correctly. the runner was not "avoiding" a tag in this situation because you can't make a tag attempt with no ball no matter what your belief is.
this isn't about a perfect call, and clearly you don't actually understand the applicable rules in this situation based on your dumbass second comment. don't try to insult someone over something you don't even understand yourself. angel hernandez umpires on belief, the belief that he is a good umpire, there is a reason he is the worst ump in baseball because belief is meaningless when a ball never entered a glove. you make a call based on what you see not what you believe that is why they get paid a fortune to do their job.
Yet another instance of commentators proving they are clueless. "You're allowed to avoid the tag!" Really?
“ Show me the ball.”