Chu Ko Nu, Kipchaks, & Castles (extra projectiles)
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- The latest patch claims to correct the number of extra projectiles that skirmishers and multi-arrow garrisoned units add. How bad was the situation before, and how many arrows do Chu Ko Nu and Kipchaks add now?
0:25 Crash course in extra projectiles
1:40 Skirmishers
2:55 Chu Ko Nu and Kipchaks pre-patch
4:25 Chu Ko Nu and Kipchaks post-patch
6:10 How they compare to other ranged units now
7:40 Exploiting the Krepost's weird arrows?
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsou...
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
I can clearly remember one time in my childhood when I garrisoned a full castle with chu ko nu just to be greatly disappointed with the outcome. Great video!
I like this patch, it makes Chinese castles if garrisoned significantly harder to destroy without siege equipment, very flavorful.
Works historically too, as the Chu Ko Nu was primarily a defensive weapon used from fortifications.
I think extra castle/tower arrows for them is a good thematic addition.
Chu Ko Nu already shredded rams though.
Almost impossible to destroy without treb or bombard. Because remember Chu Ko Nu's extra arrows shred rams.
so if 13 chu ko nu is all you need for the cap then you can add 7 knights to the garrison to surprise charge any trebs
Ironically, they shred rams faster ungarrisoned. 20 arrows at 11+4 damage each at a single target seems a bit overkill, but I guess that is about right for a paladin full armor without bloodlines, or with bloodlines but not plate
That issue for Skirmishers was present only because of the addition of Hulche Javelineers giving every civ's skirmisher an unused hidden 2nd projectile. I think that's important to state for viewers who would think Skirms had this issue for 20 years, when they only had it since the Mayan tech change.
Ah, so the garrisoned skirmishers were throwing their second projectile instead of the first one?
but the video said that all the skirms did so little while garrisoned.
@@RKBock thats what i mean. Mayan skirmishers tech was made in such a way that every civ's skirm needed to be modified to make Hulche Javelineers work.
@@harooooo1 please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong. I'm not an active player (unfortunately).
But I just don't quite get, how the addition of that tech changed anything for normal skirms. why should a normal skirm be worth less, if he doesn't even have the extra javelin that does the 1dmg?
@@RKBock sometimes devs change the wrong value. It's a simple mistake to make but not always an easy one to fix. This is speculation though
This is crazy how chinese castle with full cho ko nu 2 hitted turtle ship..
The synergy with bombard tower is truly crazy
important to note any civ with bracer, heated shot and arbalest in a full castle will do that. The Chinese just do it with less units.
Yeah, the main point to take away is that Chinese only need 16 of a fairly cheap unit to maximize castle fire
SEND IN THE CANNONS AND BOMBARDS!!! OUR FLAGSHIPS CAN'T HANDLE THE EXTRA HEAT!!!
The Chinese know how to deal with Korean turtlefolk
Next patch: adding a trebuchet to the garrison allows them to shoot an enemy trebuchet in return so that add a historical accuracy
Mounted siege on castles. That could be fun. Put in a bunch of ballistae or catapults and watch the carnage.
@@Qureas The Lord of the Rings
Not sure if that'd really be accurate. The trebuchet wasn't IN THE CASTLE it was in the yard outside of the castle. This can already done in the game with historical accuracy by building a castle, putting a stone wall around it with at least one gate, and putting the treb inside of the stone wall somewhere.
@@matthewexline6589 So castles need their name changed to keeps.
And Castle to Keep Age.
AoE devs watching started to sweat when Spirit of the Law brought up the Krepost extra arrow damage and the potential exploit
111111
Damn 111 likes
on the contrary, the dev probably was proud that someone acknowledged his meticulousness
@@qwerasdf-oy6uo I'm pretty sure it was a case of reusing the exact same castle extra arrows code for the krepost rather than being particularly thoughtful. As evidenced by the krepost firing castle extra arrows rather than krepost extra arrows
@@mysteriousshadow395 people actually care about youtube comment likes? are you 12?
This would make the Cuman Mercenaries upgrade look like a great defensive one now!!
especially for teutons))
I have never seen a Turtle Ship sink before. what a cool animation.
Chinese castle goes *BRRRRRR*
castles with machine guns.
Gatling gun, but with arrows.
remake the chinese in the custom civ builder but with that Celtic tech that makes castles fire faster. Medieval Minigun
I sense the memes coming
6:25 I was hoping to see a teutonic knight as part of the test, since infantry can add garrison arrows for the teutons.
It’d work the same way as villager so nothing much else to see there.
@@estellebright2579 well darn
@@estellebright2579
Yeah, nothing much else to see OTHER THAN A CAPED CRUSADER!
this will help cumans a lot in defensive situations, given the lack of bracer hurts a lot the frail kipchaks, and putting them inside castles is now a much better alternative than before. I'm excited for the burmese as well, as this gives another layer of utility for arambais undependent on their accuracy.
Arambais are unaffected by this patch I believe, since they don’t fire additional projectiles and aren’t skirmishers (whose calculation seemed to actually be broken).
@@rainbowevil true, I mixed it up a bit because the information on the video about their effectiveness inside castles was news to me^^
Four cannonballs! Never thought I'd see that.
It was possible before, but only with hero Guglielmo Embriaco.
Me too. Looks like Chinese civ had finally compensated for their lack of Chemistry.
So Teuton bombard towers can now theoretically do four damage to a ram.
@@lukasosterloher9105 300% increase!
@@lukasosterloher9105 Or the units can the Chu ku nu and destroy the rams in seconds :p
I like the change cause logically it makes sense. An arrow spam unit SHOULD spam arrows even when garrisoned. But should it be too powerful I could see them nerfing it a little.
Not even sure it is that powerful because archers in a castle only help if the enemy comes within range of said castle, which most players don't do without lots of siege anyway. If I was a an archer or cavalry archer civilization raiding a Chinese town, I would be more afraid of 20 Chukus outside the castle chasing down my bowmen than 20 Chukus sitting in a castle I can stay well beyond 11 squares of until I have plenty of siege ready. I won't be shocked if they nerf this a little, but I won't be shocked either if they don't because I am not seeing it really shifting the odds significantly.
Not adding anything but love your profile picture 💚
@@genericpersonx333 also castles have a problem with overkilling units when fully garissoned anyways while a group of CKN typically doesn't. Garissoning is still less effective for DPS than not in most cases, which i think is good design. Garisoning does seem like it will be a good option to deal with certain units (like onagers) tho
@@glowcloudwheatproducts495 Indeed!
Actually false. Historically fast firing arrows were mainly used in time sensitive situations such as defending a charge or ambushing. In a castle you need to conserve ammo for a long siege.
Spirit, how does this work if Chu Ko Nu are garrisoned in Celt Castles with Stronghold?
Probably just works the same?
Garrisoned Chu Ko Nu just add extra arrows to the Castle when it itself fires, they don't affect anything else.
@Miguel Afonso point is, Celt Castles with Stronghold fire faster, this probably will result in unending stream of arrows
How does that affect infantry and crenellations for the teutons? Still the same? Also how does it affect donjons?
It works the same way as if you'd garrisonned villagers for the teutons. Donjons work the same as the others
08:20 Or they are "calling the same function" (in the program) for Kreposts; which makes sense that the Kreposts' additional arrows are Castle's.
So we now have a stationary A10 warthog in AOE2. Can't wait to try that out.
I was looking for this comment.
let me show you the song people *insert arrow rain sound here*
Who gets excited about getting new video upload notification from "Spirit of the law". ❤️
I dont play to the point of min maxing but watching these videos is still incredibly worthwhile
@@Static-EN-
Yeah it's like listening to a nice lullaby.
could you do a best cav archers civ video? the one you have is pretty old and doesnt include tatars and updates
Oh man... not another reason for Chinese players to amass a ridiculous amount of Chu Ko Nus....
I can confirm it. I often play Chinese, and the hardest AI game I have ever played is fighting an Chinese AI.
7:43 "Which is the Krepost?"
Ez, its the one on the left.
Big brain time!
Does this facor in the +25% for the burgundian hand canons?
It would.
China contacted the devs to buff the chu ko nu, sounds crazy but most likely.
Garrisoned Chu Ko Nus before the July patch: "Please understand, I'm not very good at this"
Garrisoned Chu Ko Nus after the July patch: "LMG MOUNTED AND LOADED!"
6:40 VERY minor correction: as far as i know, Elite Mangudai should deal less DPS than Elite Camel Archers only if you don't take into account the Mongol firing rate bonus; with that taken into account i feel like they should get slightly more DPS done, but i could be wrong of course
But the table was constructed with real data from the test on the outpost, so there should not be any "should" nonsense here. Unless the test was done wrong, the Elite Camel Archer outperformed the DPS of the Elite Mangudai against a 0 piercing armor. Now, I can see the rate of fire turning around that in favor for the Mangudai for higher armor (if nothing else, when both units do the same 1 damage, but probably well before that); but the extra arrows are calculated as if against 0 armor.
@@Jossandoval in the editor you can make mangudais which are not controlled by a mongol player, so they perform worse than a real game's mongol mangudai would, and i believe that's what happened here; i'm only assuming he didn't correct it because he didn't list it in the corrections
OR he could have also used mongols as the blue player's civ and then all cav archer unique units would fire faster i guess
@@MrSivince I always assume that the shoot on the screen are what looks good of all the boring testing phase, but yes, that could possible be a testing mistake. Time to do a tiny test with only two civs? That doesn't seem to hard... Except that I don't have a computer with Windows and AoE II right now, so It would net to wait a bit.
@@Jossandoval amazing how many of us watch these videos even when not playing the game regularly 11
6:26 , that outpost, my OCD is kicking in.
Would of have been better if the skirm had to stand out of line?
Historically fast firing arrows were mainly used in time sensitive situations such as defending a charge or ambushing. In a castle you need to conserve ammo for a long siege.
Gotta say I wasn't expecting the Elite Camel Archer to have higher DPS than an Elite Mangudai.
They don't Spirit f'ed up by forgeting to include the mongolian civ's cav arch fire rate boost bonus...
@@grraf1 He must have just been referring to converted E.Mangudai... ;-)
What would be the case with the Ballista elephant with two projectiles?
Ballista elephants count as siege so no extra arrows
@@unuseranonyme but it count as mount archer too( got bonus dam from skirm)
Chu Ko No?
Chu Ko Yes?
Chu Kon Deez Nuts!
Interesting, though it does sound like perhaps a small nerf is in order. For single shot units, the calculation generously assumes full damage is dealt instead of being blocked by armor, but this is actually fine because most units don't have enough attack to add more than one arrow, if that, and any arrows they _do_ add will have their damage reduced by armor. For multi shot units, this gets a bit ridiculous, because the effect of armor would compound with every extra projectile. You're basically taking a bunch of weak attacks and adding all their damage together as if it was one strong attack, and then only deducting armor from the damage _once._ My ballpark figure is that extra projectiles should only count 50% towards the unit's damage, or that a default armor rating should be assumed when considering extra projectiles. Even a default armor of 2 would likely make a dramatic difference, and most units you'll face will have more pierce armor than that.
Hi SOTL,
how does this work on Mayan Skirmishers, which get a 2nd Projectile with their Castle Age unique Tech?
"Just noticed you can actually increase bombard towers shells with garrisoned units"
... Huh! well now.
How does your kipchacks get extra 1+1 armor with cumans? Or Does the Tatar silk armor tech helps allies too?
I was wondering that too.
So in a team game, teutons and Chinese seem like super strong allies with farm bonuses as well as chu ku nu garrisoning teuton crenallation castles
Exactly. While the 4 cannonball bombard tower with 10 Chu Ko Nus is just for style points or situationally useful for insane damage output, the two civs do jive together really well and cover each other's weaknesses. Chinese have strong archers and mobility with hussar, and Teutons have tanky, powerful units that can just punch anyone in the face.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Chinese don't get hussar. Their glaring weakness is onager and siege onager. But yeah, it would be interesting to see Teuton castles filled with chu ko nu.
In real games units wouldn't be hiding in castles most of the time (it's a waste to do so in most situations) so they are not really a strong combo. But it would be a fun combo
Now that Skirmishers add a fair amount of arrows when garrisoned, I wonder how it’ll change trash fights in 1v1s. A last stand in a Castle perhaps?
Love to see a “general advanced tips” video. I’m sure you have heaps of those you could share and the video would be must watch.
Great idea!
I guess it would make it fairer when every garrisoned unit would just throw their own arrows (at their own speed, and their own damage bonuses), maybe with a bit of bonus range or the 25% hill damage for being up higher, instead of trying to convert everything into "castle arrows".
I agree: it would be logical that castle should have the cost lowered and no base attack, since you should have to garrison units to get attack. The attack would be the units that are garrisoned and the attackers should have like a 10% or 20% chance of hitting anyone inside it.
Such a big change to a codebase so old would be very hard to implement and would bring a myriad of bugs. Not feasible IMHO.
@@brujua7 Of course it would be impossible to implement on AoE2, not only it would be chaos to make it, it would be a change so big in balance and meta-game that it might ruin the game for many people.
That said, I was hoping that AoE4 would work in that way... and the same for siege units: that they should requiere some infantry to work and function, and if you kill the infantry that controls siege, you could take control with your infantry, same with buildings.
Waiting for Spirit to be the first to make an AoE4 video after its release with a constructive criticism of the new farming bonuses :)
Firstly, I thought that Skirms not adding errors was an intentional thing for all these years. Secondly - I had no idea you can fire multiple canon balls from bombard tower after 20 years playing this game
I don't think it's too powerful. It fits well imo
If that little above the previous max is an issue, then people would have been complaining about the lack of arrows a lot more than they were
Does it work for garrisoned organ guns or longboats in "converted" harbors? As in those units trained and garrisoned within the same building before releasing...? Just curious
Organs guns *are* considered Gunpowder units as well as being a Siege weapon, so it might add the extra arrows, or it might just ignore it since it's a siege weapon.
4:05 is that Silk Armor?
Yeah, how did the kipchak get extra 1/1 armor there?
New Chinise Castle Rush?
Please call it MG42
You can reupload the Huns análisis with the atheims change
Y'know, considering all the cool destruction animations I'm surprised they didn't add a Kaiju cheat to the game.
Speaking of Kreposts, their range should be 8.
Did you try elite skirmishes with mayan bonus tech (fire 2 projectiles)
what's better, have a vietnamese ally so you can do imperial skirmisher
@@ms9001 well if i understood well, it's the dps outcome that count for towers and castle i think imp skirmishes add not even 1 dps so...
Pretty sure the fact that krepost behave exactly like castles when it comes to extra arrows is caused by it being the same function call undermeath, so it would be surprising if all the calculations werent completly the same ^^
Never understood how those extra arrows work, thanks! 11
Spirit! Great stuff.
You mentioned Chu Ko Nu extra arrows being 3 pierce dmg? I thought they were actually 3 melee dmg and that's why Chu Ko Nu are so good at killing rams
Love that the arrow calculation applies to BBT too! The only civ that can do it is Teutons with extra garrison. If you do 10 Hand Cannons there is enough damage to get 2 cannonballs from the tower
I think the do 3 pierce and 0 melee damage, meaning they do 3 extra damage against rams than otherwise because rams have -3 melee armor.
Chu Ko Nu extra arrow is doing 0 melee damage, 3 pierce damage. But since rams had -3 armor, the damage calculation become 0 - (-3) = +3 melee damage on each extra arrow hit on rams. This will not work on teutons if they have unique tech iron clad researched.
SOTL 😍
So Spirit are you going to talk about the sneaky bonuses, that some techs give my fave is the byzantines logistica yes we all know it adds trample damage but what most of us don't know is that it adds a +6 damage versus Infantry, making the cataphract the greatest anti infantry unit ever even the mighty Teutonic Knight cannot stand up against that power, same can be said for your vaunted Samurai.
chinese: one of the best civ in the game
Dev: lets buff them even more
But the Franks are the #1 based on winrates though
This buff has very little significance since it's a lot better to have units on the map rather than castles
elephant like to be in garrison?
I comment and watched first and yeet
Yeet
Yeet
Yeet
Yeet
The bit with Kreposts works the opposite way, too: when guard towers and keeps were buffed with +1 attack in Forgotten Empires, the secondary arrows were not initially buffed, and the amount of arrows garrisoned units added was based on the hidden 'extra arrow' damage, not the main damage. Arrow Slits didn't affect them either. Fixing this coincided with nerfing Yasama, the tech that gives Japanese towers extra arrows.
Since the cause of all this is that only some units have an arrow unit with non-zero damage in the game stats (which you can see with Genie editor), getting the correct number of Krepost arrows is more of an accident than clever design. Chu Ko Nu doing 3 damage against rams, because of a "0 melee damage" entry for their secondary arrows, really seems like a legacy of this accidental arrangement, that continues affecting the game today. Someone 23 years ago thought, "well, the arrow for this unit shouldn't do any melee damage, so I'll put a 0 in this field" when they should have left it blank, and the consequence 23 years later is that a single Chu Ko Nu does more damage than a castle's volley of arrows to a ram.
Garrisoning archers in a bombard tower makes the tower shoot extra cannon balls.
I can see a new meme rising.
5:42 Castle extra arrows deal +11 damage vs stone defenses, not +9. I tested it in game. Use slow-motion to watch them attack a piece of wall if you don't believe it.
And yeah, I wonder why krepost arrows deal more bonus damage (+13) even though castle is technically better than krepost in every way.
Makes me wonder if someone could have abused it against Fatslob if provoked him to play mirror Chinese again.
Does Fatslob play DE?
@@vytah hmm, good question
@@vytah He tried it and wasn't a fan iirc
=HEY,IT'S A GREAT UPDATE ALREADY
............AND THERE'S NOTHING UNFAIR......JUST MORE OPTIONS NOW
Castle loaded with Chu Ko Nus = Omaha flashbacks
Well, if I ever get a handful of Elite Kipchaks from Cuman Mercenaries, I now know how I'll be using them.
I would worry about if such castle with few garrisons is OP against rams. They should probably treat chu-ku-nu as crossbow or arbalest when they are in a castle.
Elite Genose Crossbow
Do fletching, bracer, etc add damage to the 3-damage extra arrows of the chu-ko-nu and kipchak?
No, only to the main arrow.
It has a historical precedence as well, sine historically the Chu Ko Nu is almost exclusively used as a defensive weapon/ home defense weapon.
Hmmmmm, Meta
SoL: They fixed number or arrows firing from garrisoned buildings
Me: Fucking finally! That is load of my back!
Me: Never played AoE 2
In 1942 the Germans created the MG42, a revolutionary rapid fire gun. Prior to that in 1862, the world was introduced to the Gatling gun, capable of heavy sustained fire. Prior to what was the Chinese and Cuman castles with 13-ish garrisoned unique units :P
Good to know they fixed this problem. It is weird to think an archer cause more damage outside the castle.
I hope they put Steppe lancers on Huns menus next. You know, to make the cavalry of this "CAVALRY Civ" less standard.
Really, they got only one bonus to them.
They really need to _kipchak_ their arrows so they don't run out of them, since they're shooting more than others xD
4:16 Yeah, those _Dark Age Archers_ are bad boys 😁
Nice analysis, but am I the only one who is unhappy with how multiple projectiles are implemented? Wouldn't it be cool if the chukonu had say 4x4 damage instead of 8+3+3? Same with kipchaks, organ guns and so on... maybe make them less accurate but make them do full damage if they hit unintended targets. It might be trickier to balance, but it would my opinion really get volley weapon spirit, which all of these in essence should be, even if they don't feel like it atm.
I remember the days. When I would offensively castle my foes. And run packs of 20 conquistadors in and out for healing. And watching swarms of arrows raining down on foes as they abused herbal medicine before darting back out to give my Cavaliers or Paladins a turn for healing goodness.
Always wondered why melee units don't offer half their DPS as arrows (with some bonus for spearmen as anti-cav specialists) but clearly they felt champions offering a boost to dps against ranged units or boats would be op.
Chinese Castles after July Patch : *Basically Medieval MG42 Bunkers*
That single not aligned outpost at 6:33 is bothering me more than I expected
skirmisher minimum range
Has to be because of skirmisher's minimum range.
I know, but he could have moved the skirm a tile behind, it would have been less noticeable lol
How does this affect Organ Guns which were created with gather point set to the same castle? (Since they can't be regarissoned once out)
And Ballista Elephants with the double projectile UT?
Wait you can get more cannonballs from bombard towers?! Iv only been playing for 20 years lol
What about ranged units but dealing melee damage with non arrow projectiles? Like throwing axeman, Manluke and the other fast one I forgot the name of...
Here cometh the Teuton/Chinese/Saracen military industrial complex!
Do chukunoo get bonus damage from saracen team bonus?
Not the extra arrows no
You need to take into account (nobody said this) the lower attack rate from firing more extra arrows. The reload only starts after firing the last arrow and the castle fires sequentially, not simultaneously. This also means its harder to change targets the more arrows there are.
You forgot to account for the Mongols’ faster firing rate for Elite Mangudai. They should increase the arrows by much more than Elite Camel Archers.
Rather than the devs being galaxy brain for the Krepost it sounds more like a case of some lazy copy-pasta codeing.
I just read about it, the Chu Ko Nu probably should be called Zhugenu, because they use the Zhugenu, named after Zughe Liang.
Could this mean they plan an Asian DLC? (Manchu, Tibetans, and Chinese campaign?)
I main Chinese. They finally fixed this after two decades...
Aoe2: Castle can fit 20 war wagon. but 21 villagers can't fit.
8:25 i bet they just copied over the code from the astle to the krepost xD.
Mangudai are much better... you forgot the Mongol CA bonus.
Can you do another farming rate video please? Dave changed farmers behavior two times ever since your last video on farming rate.
How about Mayan skirmishers with their bonus and imperial skirmishers?
If the arrows added are determined by dps, the Ethiopian arbalests should have a higher value than generics, right?
I think it hardly matters , but bug fuxes is bug fixes I wouldn't say it's bad or waste of time.
"How many arrows would you like?"
Chu Ko Nu: "YES"
6:50 how about imperial skirmishers?
I just love the idea that putting a bunch of chinese dudes in a german made tower magically makes a cannon shoot 4 cannonballs at a time
With the bonus damage, it now seems to always be better to garrison units rather than leaving them outside, if your enemy is in range of a castle.
cool outro showing how its made
So does the chart change if it’s garrisoned archers in a tower?
Castle age Chinese castle drop looking pretty good.