316R Rsw Martin D35 With Severe Intonation Issues Revised
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2019
- This Martin Guitar may as well been called a Martian guitar. Because it was from another planet when it came to intonation. LOL
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Website: www.rosastringworks.com
Mr. Rosa, as a former amateur furniture maker and a current amateur mandolin player I am super impressed by your skills, hard work, and desire to explain to the rest of us what you do.
Great video I want you to work on my guitars. But what I wanted to thank you for the most was the end. When you played a little of wild Wood flower I was sitting at my grandfather's feet with him teaching me that song at 9 years old. I had totally forgotten about that and at 62 I was right back there with you playing it So you really never know how taking your time to make videos might affect people.. Thank you for the vid. David
WOW. As a D-35 owner it really struck home. Purchased in 1971 it seemed to have a similar problem but a trip back to Martin for a full neck reset and other assorted repairs seems to have fixed the problem.
Hi Jerry, a similar thing was done to the bridge on my 1970 Martin D18s. I had a re-fret done by a chap who also messed with the bridge by cutting the string slots close the saddle without asking. There was nothing wrong with it in the first place!! It then caused problems so I took it to Ralph Bown in York, UK. He left the bridge in place, filled in the holes with some dowel, routed out the top of the bridge and inserted some wood into it to hide the old holes. Then he drilled new pin holes and saddle slot which were slightly further back, the holes are at a slight angle. There's a narrow piece of rose wood that runs under the bridge plate to anchor the strings in the new holes. A great job though the guitar has lost some tone slightly but still sounds great and the intonation is better. Fascinating video.
I was glad to see you realize that simply tracing the holes along the new line would result in them being too close together. Great job on this one, Jerry!
A luthier or carpenter sure has in-depth knowledge about geometry.
Guitar is so loud it caused the recording to breakup in the beginning lol definitely an amazing guitar.
You've heard the story . It was put together on a Monday are a Friday . Monday morning hang over, Friday in a hurry to get off work and go party. You got to love those old story's right. Yeah I watched the video were you fixed that guitar. And I did understand what you were saying. But at the same time, you are looking at a Martin a high-end guitar. and most people would think they wouldn't sell a guitar like that. But it happened. And is always Mr. Jerry great job. Have a great weekend . 😀👍
I have a 1970ish Martin 00-21 that had intonation problems. A luthier expertly modified the bridge and saddle and solved the problem.
Yep. I've fixed heaps of these Martins too over the last 30 years or so. A far more common problem than one would expect. Most often a saddle slot fill and recut will sort it.
Hi Steve - agreed, my 1967 D-35 also has an intonation problem but I'm inclined to put up with it and just play basic open chords. My 2000 HPD-41 has no issues and plays easily and sounds beautiful. I think it's illogical and unreasonable to expect a vintage guitar that's been well-played over the years to be more or less in mint condition - we have to enjoy them for just what they are and wonder where they've been for the last 50 or 60 years!
Jerry, I have a 1973 D28 that had severe intonation problem. After years of dealing with it I finally sent it back to Martin. They replaced the top because the bridge was about 1/8" off. Martin said the guitar was built when Martin was on strike and they had who ever they could get assembling guitars, including management. The problem came from the pattern being off. They got it right this time though. Enjoy you videos and I always I leave a thumbs up!!!!
tx for solving the mystery!
Monsieur Rosa, I'm a relative newbie to you channel. I've been following your postings for only a couple of weeks now, yet quite voraciously. I subscribed after viewing only 2 of your videos (a record for me...I ain't so easily Kornvinced), and have hit the "like" button on every one of a large number of your videos. This is my first time to comment on your page, and it was merely the simplicity of this particular solution, and your honesty (in both the diagnosis to your, "somewhat doubtful", music playing pal, and in your unique, non-invasive, fix) that compelled me to finally write something. Please continue to post, as your insights and skills are invaluable, to we wacky players, as well as to all those other luthiers and repair pholksies. My applause, good sir.
Thank you very much my friend.
High skills in both problem solving and luthier ability. You are a professor of instruction and a craftsman that makes tools to do impossible jobs! Hang in there!
I didn't see you drill holes through the top of the guitar (after filling the old holes) which seems like one of the most critical steps and I had the most questions about since it's hard to fix if wrong. (Measure twice and cut once.) Very informative. Thanks. I also wondered why some guitars have a slant on the saddle and others do not. Never did make sense to me and still doesn't.
Yeah, I made the assumption that Martin wouldn't sell a guitar with the bridge that far off. I'm 65, and really should know better. Thank you Jerry.
He got the term "ORDER OF OPERATIONS" in a luthier job!
Good show!!
My Martin DCX1E is same exact issue. Low E is off by almost a half note. I feel like I can do this repair myself. What a great video!!! I just had the guitar set up and was thinking they would re set the intonation. But was explained to me that they couldn't fix the intonation. I was never into the technical side of how guitars work, so I was wondering if the guitar came out of the factory like this.
Outstanding work.
Another great job, thanks for posting from Garry in the UK
Wonderful Job Jerry!!! Really well thought out and a perfect fix!!!!
Well done Jerry !! Great problem solving repair !!
It seems many guitar companies had problems in the ‘70’s and early ‘80’s
during the guitar boom.
Sad thing is people pay more for them because of it being “vintage”.
Been doing repairs for well over 35 years and in my opinion the newer guitars sound great
and are better made.
Thank you for all your excellent videos. You and Randy are my favorites.
that´s right. New instruments are build more precise but don´t sound better.
You are right, however, I think it also depends on the brand and model. Some newer, cheaper instruments are CNC made in Asia, the wood used has not fully dried, or it was dried too quickly in a kiln because they need to be manufactured quickly. There's something to be said for old wood, case in point, the most prized violins are usually hundreds of years old. There are excerptions, of course. Personally, I love older instruments. They feel more broken-in.
I guess seeing is believing that was some crazy sweep in that bridge saddle!
At the end it really wasn't as bad as it looked at the beginning. If you notice the angle wasn't quite so severe I should have pointed that out more.
What a shame you have to do all that on a Martin D-35 just to make it intonate properly. Especially considering what one costs. Really great job on that one.
It always seems youu have all the materials and tools you need and as always you did a great job. Thanks for sharing.
brilliant repair. you do great work. really sounds great now.
Fab job Jerry - sounded and looked excellent 👍
I never would have thought Martin would produce and sell guitars with the intonation off so much. Super impressive how you fixed it. Another exceptional video. Thanks for sharing.
Marvelous job, can’t wait till your done. 🥀🎚🙏
Thank you sir, I have been enjoying your video's for quite a while now. I love the way you explain things in a straight forward manner, and use good old fashioned hand working skills to remedy some pretty serious issues. It's fascinating watching and learning. You have a new subscriber.
When I have to cut through the finish, I repeatedly heat the (brand new) blade of the Exacto knife (with a heat gun vs. a candle or lighter). Heat gun makes no soot and less likely to overheat the blade to red hot. Seems to reduce chipping (or shattering) the finish by partially? melting it... instead of scratching through it.. Seems to work well on thick, UV cured finishs that are REALLY easy to damage outside the intended work area.
AND the hot blade (cauterizes?) the finish's edge that is left.
Keep cleaning the Exacto blade to remove the melted finish . Clean the blade between cuts by scraping (cold) or use heat and wipe off the goo.
the explanation up front really makes it better :P
thumb up
thanks for the extra effort
Another great video, Jerry, you do superb work but you are very down to earth. I wish you were on this side of the Atlantic!
Beautiful sounding guitar, master craftsman !
Sounds great.. was never a martin fanatic anyway, but this one is wow now.. great job. tks for sharing..
The Dark Art of Guitar Intonation Adjustment. It's a bit like aerodynamics on a race car...most know what it does..but very few can explain it or fix it if it aint workin right. You are one of the chosen ones Mr Rosa String Works. This particular problem haunts most Guitar players like havin a pimple on your back...you know its there but you just can't reach it or get rid of it ..Absolute Respect and Peace to you Sir.
you did an excellent job on this guitar.
Great content. I can see why this has allot of views. I completely understood what the issue was before you added the second intro, but I know how the comment gallery can be.
Very impressive! Great problem solving with slanting the pin placement. Genius actually.
Its just a Masterclass of a Luthier. Wow, what a job!!!!
Great job, sir.... once more!!!
Thanks for the clarification !
Hate to be critical but your temporary tailpiece should be spaced wider - so that the e-strings pass over each e-string hole. Because it's a little narrow, i think that your location of the saddle is inaccurate. You could wedge a block between the strings to widen it, so strings are accurately located. I love your videos - I've learned a lot and thank you for sharing.
I love your common sense approach. Even though this guitar is made by a very well known Guitar company your expertise told you that even Martin messes up sometimes. I'm no Guitar Geek but you certainly have given a heads up to folks like myself that love learning new methods about fixing old problems, even on expensive instruments. Thx for sharing this video.
Hi! Great video and amazing how you devise your own way to solve a serious problem and save a guitar worth probably thousands. I have the same intonation problem. A local luthier said $200 to correct it. She said my neck is migrating into the sound box. So on both sides of the neck or fret board that extends over the spruce top there are two cracks in the spruce top along side the fret board. These two cracks cause the section of spruce top between the fret board and the sound hole to also migrate into the sound hole a fraction, and it also cracked the decorative layers that encompass the sound hole. Another luthier took a piece of spruce top wood, cut it to align with the sound hole, then glued it in place. It stopped the migrating so it seems and seems it's still the intonation. My guitar is a classical one I bought at a Salvation Army store in 1981. I like the guitar a lot. What would other luthiers here charge to do this job? Does it mean I have to scrap my guitar? Thanks for this great video. You are an innovator!
That was quite impressive work.
Great job!!
I’m sure the owner likes the guitar MUCH MORE now.
Another job well done. 👍
Brilliant work!
Jerry, U da man!!! And I'm a big fan. Been a musician since I was 8 & now I'm 50.
I wished I had known about ur videos b4 recently. I have learned so much from you. God bless you and your family and staff.
If I ever grow up I want to be just like you Jerry
Amazing work! Wish I could get mine to you safely!
This isn't the only guitar in history with this issue. I have a Fender Strat Plus, (actually, two of them) which is a high-end Strat with a few extra features---locking tuners, LSR or Wilkinson nut, and crappy Lace Sensor pickups (the only mediocre thing about the guitar) Anyway, I got the second one as a backup and I noticed that the intonation could not be set. Now these Strats are CNC machine made and they are generally very precise. Indeed, the fretwork is great, very even, well finished ends, and the guitar sings; with nice body resonance. So, I was disappointed in the second one. And then day one I looked at it and saw the nut was installed at an angle. Very weird on a machine-carved guitar. Friend of mine fixed it and now it has better action that the first one!
Have you ever been told that your vids are addictive ? Sometimes I feel like I'm being"clothesline " when I click away . 😂 thanx Jerry
I bought my first guitar in 2011. Watching you work makes me appreciate my Taylor, and have a desire to protect it, that much more. Thank you for your service!
Great job, as always-JJ
brilliant solution lateral thinking
Good catch on the holes
The bad hair day makes the intonation problem even more drastic. Love your videos!
Very helpful video.
Good move on re-measuring the string holes after lining them up with the larger angle, because it would have made a difference and the strings would have been closer together. Well done. You should send a copy of the video to Martin. For the price of their guitars this is unacceptable, and they need to see this.
Nice clear hollar from that Git~
She’s a beaut! Love this channel.
it seems like I watched this before and said Martin MMV model guitars' bridge pins line parallel to the saddle like that. or maybe I dreamed this lol
Got my shirt, Jerry. Thanks!
by far the best and most thorough. Will you work on my Guitars🙂
GREAT JOB
Gotta do what you gotta do. Weird issue. Love your videos.
The Guitologist Hi! I ever was one of your subscribers because I kinda love your videos but I cancelled 'cause I mostly don't understand a thing about electricity...so what's the point? But your charisma got me watching hours of "nonsense". Glad to see you're doing well on UA-cam :-) Have a great summer!
I had just bought my 00-21 in 1968, so I was very high on Martin when I played my uncle's D-35. The scale was all wrong and the thing wouldn't tune for the love of God. Like you, I was stunned to think this could be a real Martin. My uncle didn't care because he had a tin ear and very limited playing ability - so he was perfectly happy to look good and sound like shit.
not many luthiers would know how to do what you did here. brilliant technique. sound is now super'
I have no luthier training (other than RSW and Dave’s World of Fun Stuff) but I have removed and replaced a cracked bridge before. Yet this repair would have daunted me. I would have been sorely tempted to switch to some kind of a trapeze bridge, I think.
I would trust him with any of my guitars. Awesome work
thank you
That’s an amazing sounding guitar. Watching you use the tailpiece for bridge locating has really give me that aha moment. I’m in the middle of building a guitar myself and I always fret ( no pun intended) about getting the bridge correctly located. Is that homemade or from an arch top? How does it install? In the strap button? Keep up the great work
Hi Jerry loved the video, just a thought, the saddle you placed upon the bridge to initially assess the angle and position for correct intoonation - I've skipped back and forth on the video a few times and it looks (the first assesment saddle), was significantly higher than the one used later in the video after the bridge was glued on.
I know that you don't like adjustable bridges on acoustic guitars the kind with a screw at both ends . As a repeatable point of reference for myself, when setting two of these adjustable bridges, up I've noticed a marked difference in intonation when up or down movement is made. Higher = sharper.
As a side note there's usually a sweet spot on those adjustable bridges, when the adjustment mechanism is transfering the vibational energy well, just take the finished nut down by sanding the flat bottom to play well for desired action and you keep the tonal sweet spot with nice playability.
Maybe the height of the (lower test) saddle normalisi later in the video is because of this effect - the lower the saddle with respect the the fretboard plane and, though minute, the strings 'bends' less to be fretted due to a shallower break angle if it can be termed as such. Thicker bass strings react more to this effect.
I'm sure you know at the other end, high nut slots will make the strings play sharp up to about fret 4. This seems to me to be the same effect just at the saddle end of the string.
Very nice!!
Awesome
Just great!!! Wow!!!
I think you did it right!!!
Wonderful job. I have a guitar I found at the recycle that needs a new bridge (the original has a split across the peg holes about 1/8 inch, that the original owner apparently tried to fill/repair with wood putty) and I have been wondering how I might approach repairing it, particularly how I might set the intonation. Your tools and techniques have answered my questions. Thanks you so much...
Jerry, I always enjoy your videos, and I appreciate your work ethic immensely. One thing you might do to gain insight into intonation issues is to capo at the first and thirteenth frets, and compare F2 to F3 instead of comparing E2 to E3 with the capo at the twelfth. This completely takes the nut out of the picture, and that is of significance because the nut is usually where at least part of the problem lies. Illustrating this idea is the fact that older Gretsch electrics like the original Chet Atkins 6119, 6120, 6122, etc., all had zero nuts, and they were equipped with solid bar bridges that had no compensation adjustment, yet the guitars had no intonation problems. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why all guitars don't have zero frets.
I understand your logic. And I don't completely disagree with it. But some of it that I do disagree with. For one thing when you Capo and check intonation you're bending the string at the first fret. Which affects your intonation as well. A nut that is cut correctly and set up with proper action will work as well as a zero fret. Although I understand there are a couple of advantages of 0 frets. It's another one of those deals in my opinion where there's a million ways to skin a cat. I just prefer to do it differently. I do not believe at all in compensated nuts. That is just fouled thinking from the very get-go.
nice job
Jerry, you’re a clever, clever man. This is one for the files. Yeah, yeah, just cause I’m impressed, doesn’t mean I’m going to be sending flowers & chocolates.
But seriously man, you should get your videos together and make some “Lutherie tricks & traps for new players” DVDs I’d buy that for sure.
Just make sure the dvds are Suitable for international & us.
Thanks for a great video.
Another thing for moving bridges might be a small bit of strip caulk placed under it, or some of that picture hanging glue gum my wide likes to use!
Martin went from producing 7,403 guitars in 1965 to producing 22,636 in 1971; in a mere six years, their production numbers more than tripled. A large number of the 163,887 guitars produced from 1970-79 were fantastic instruments that were built without flaws. However, there were a small number which suffered from what’s generally considered the result of poor quality control.
Even during this difficult period, Martin was producing guitars of excellent quality, especially considering that some of the big competitors of the day, like Gibson, were sometimes selling factory seconds.
The only real quality control issue that Martin experienced in this period was that some of the bridges were misplaced, resulting in poor intonation. It is rumored that a simple yardstick-like piece was used to place the bridges, and one out several used was about a ¼" too short. This issue can be righted by moving the original bridge back, installing a new bridge, or by filling and re-cutting the saddle slot in the original bridge.
They also had a pick guard lifting issue from about 1970 to 1972.
Yes that’s 100% correct. I have a 1972 d-18 but its one of the good ones
i loved this one again :)
Hi Jerry, love your videos. I’ve learned a lot from them. I have a question. Do you ever compensate the nut?
..nice save 👍
👍thanks !!
how DID you put the pegs in, when you closed the guitar holes where the strings go threw on the top,but left the saddle with holes for the strings open.............................
About one-third of the guitars had this problem. They had fixtures which were used to determine the location of the bridges, and one was incorrect. Apparently there were a total of three fixtures, so it all came down to which one was used to build your guitar. I cannot imagine how this went unnoticed, but it did. Remember, this was a time when Martin was struggling, so perhaps that had something to do with it. I have heard from credible sources that, during that era, some fixtures had been repaired with Popsicle sticks, and I heard Chris Martin speak and he specifically said that one of his early tasks was to upgrade the fixtures at the factory.
Never heard that one before but I've heard at least a dozen different theories on why it happened. Including being on strike. Who knows.
My D35 (1977) has an intonation issue with the B-String, it´s too high when played on 2nd/3rd fret and higher. I´ve seen you compensated the bridge on exactly the B-string. Think I have to do the same. Thank you for your very informative video. Greetings from Germany!
And just think he played that for years knowing something was wrong. Martin should have never let that leave the factory like that, ever on any of the guitars, shame on them! This is one of the reasons Taylor spanked them! Anyway, what a pro you are, takes a real craftsman with skill to pull this off the way you did, all I can say is WOW! Thanks for your videos, wish I more time to watch more!
Yep. Send it to G.C...they'll sell it..
Sadly, I'll never buy a martin..all seem sky high action too..sad
Great video along with you other video on setting the action. I have made a Martin D28 copy for which I will be using you videos to set it up correctly. I have however another problem in that I didn’t take enough notice of the neck thickness when carving the neck profile. Problem is I don’t know how thick it should be (can’t find any good detail on the internet), just that it doesn’t feel right and my capo (Shubb) is at full extent when putting it on the neck (shows the neck is too thick). Do you have any advice, or have you come across this problem before?
Jerry, I watched the video previously but didn’t post. I was thinking there had to be something off about the nut for it to intonate correctly with such a extreme angle on the saddle. I mean it’s just x-y=z sprinkled with some geometry right? It did look like less of an angle when you finished the repair than it did when you were doing the lay-out but I still puzzled over “why?” For a long time after watching. As always I enjoyed the video but just couldn’t get my head around how there could be so much angle.
I suspect it's an optical illusion. I bet if you measured the actual lengths of both E strings, they would be almost exactly the same as any other similar Martin. It looks extreme because the bridge was originally glued on angled the wrong way a bit. Gluing the original bridge on in the right place would have looked fine except for the massive finish problem that creates.
I totally agree with you . If the geometry is right it should be close. I wondered if the bridge was put on at an angle initially. It looked like it on the video. Either way he had to make another bridge. Jerry you are amazing.
I love ur videos however i have a question in my mind .Before u made the custom bridge ,it wouldnt be easyer to filing some off from the nut on the bass side so then it drops sooner to the fratboard then the rest whic eventualy would give some extra lenght few mm could been earn there.
I wondered if there was some funny business with the nut on that guitar causing the severe angle on the saddle. Anyway it turned out really good.
Like a “blue print” guitar
Even the so called "Leaders in guitars" can goof up. They are human. But they`re quality control should of picked up on it.. Nice work.
That’s what I suspected when I watched this video the first time but since you didn’t state the obvious, I never posted a comment. I’m only an amateur guitar builder and I figured an expert like you would have told us and I too figured Martin wouldn’t make this mistake so many times. I’m trying to figure out how a legendary company like Martin wouldn’t have gotten complaints and noticed their mistake and better yet, offered to fix it.
Capitalism sucks..
Even martin...they are losing me, I'll never buy martin again...
6:00 Wouldn't the bridge saddle angle be smaller if you ran the strings across their string holes? Seems like the saddle is much more back where the 6th string actually goes and too close where the 1st string runs? Thanks for great resources!
The sad problem was that somewhere in 1970, the Martin Guitar Company was sold to AMF (the bowling pin setter company) and they set out to trade on the Martin name. Many of the old ways were abandoned to save money. In 1977, Chris Martin, the grandson, bought the company back from AMF. There were a lot of problem guitars produced during those seven years. Chris went back to the old ways and has restored the Martin name.
I've researched the ownership of Both Martin and AMF and have found no reference to AMF, or any other company having ever owned Martin. The following quote is from the Martin website.Christian Frederick Martin IVOver 175 Years of Martin The company, founded in the U.S. has been continuously family owned and operated for six generations. Currently headed by Chairman and CEO Christian Frederick Martin IV, the company has been handed down five times since it was started by German immigrant Christian Frederick Martin Sr. in 1833.
@@georgevanwin Cruising the internet is like wading in my cesspool.
There is SO MUCH CRAP! Glad to see someone still knows how to research.
But how about those bowling pins?
Wrong. I’ve been to Martin many times. Never ever did this happen. Go back in history and show us where this happened.
@@markviereck4547 The AMF story is balderdash.
Like the channel 👍
Once again Mr. Rosa a job done very well. I would like to know your opinion as to why this Martin"s intonation, an expensive guitar, was so far out?
Martin messed up on a bunch of guitars in the late 70s early 80s