Own a 1975 Cessna 172 four place. Had since 1976. I love my airplane more than my new car. I'm 98 years old. Still as sharp today as 80 years old. Retired from United Airlines age 65. Had no choice. I then volunteered for 20 years. Thank you from Clearwater Beach Florida Pinellas County.
I’ve owned a Cessna 182 in the past and enjoyed the freedom of just going to the airport and jumping in. The down side is the cost. After the initial couple of years most people won’t fly 150 hours. The overall cost per hour becomes much higher. I thought that I would just rent an airplane when I needed it and that has proven just to hard. Availability is the main issue. I would want to use an airplane for long weekend or holidays and they just aren’t available. The FBO can rent a plane like a 172 for many hours on a weekend and would rather do that then give me the plane and only get 4-5 hours. Flying clubs can be a good option but I’ll probably find 3-4 like minded pilots to do a partnership with if and when I decide to jump back in.
I've heard a good approach is to find a/some partner/s. There's a way to work it so everybody benefits but I don't know what it is. Definitely not a cheap date.
Yeah I agree with Nancy. Find someone to share the plane with. I bought a 100k wake boat this way with my brother. We split all the maintenance costs. It works really well.
Best option, find a group that is looking for a new member. I bought into a group and was able to afford a much better aircraft than I could have as a sole owner. Also, as a new pilot, I was able to learn the pitfalls of aircraft ownership.
If you don’t mind me asking do you all split the expenses evenly? How do you determine Aircraft availability? I’m asking because I came across an opportunity to be a fifth member of a partnership. Just trying to do some research.
I know your comment is old but the way we did it is this way: plane ownership is split equally (bank loan payments, insurance, storage, annual inspection, etc.) for operational costs we got a third party consultant approved by everyone to estimate the replacement and lifetime maintenance cost of every mayor component as well as the hours left in each component. We then have a beautiful spreadsheet that divides cost by hours left of each part and adds it all up. That total amount is multiplied by the total of hours flown and is deposited into our partnership bank account after every flight. When an actual expense occurs the money saved is used to pay and we adjust the spreadsheet to reflect the actual cost and hours in service of that since last replacement. If the actual cost was less than the replacement we saved the difference is paid back prorated to hours flown. Sounds complicated but in practice is not, since the spreadsheet does the heavy lifting!
Hey Bobby glad to see another of these pop up. We should probably discount value appreciation, as the huge price gains have primarily been in the last few years and likely cannot continue - your example 1975 172 will likely not be $150k in 20 years when it is 66 years old. I have a simple rule of thumb budget after owning and operating for many many years - 1 propeller = $20k/year; 2 propellers = $40k year; jets are about 5% of the purchase price per year. As with all things, your mileage may vary and I have years where expense was well less, and also a few where it was well more. But the reality is unless you are using an aircraft for business (i.e. making money) there is no way to justify the cost. It is ridiculously expensive, and only going to get worse. you do it because you love it, can somewhat afford it, and/or because your spouse doesn't know how much it really costs. keep the blue side up!
100% agree with this comment. Every owner I know runs the expenses through their LLC and it’s the only way they justify the cost. These birds cost $50k/year to operate plus the opportunity cost of the money tied up in the purchase price. Rent a Cirrus at $450/hour when you want to travel rather than buying one - it’ll save you seven figures over your flying lifetime.
Insurance cost varies widely depending on your experience, age, how often you fly, hull value, etc. I think your insurance estimate is low by almost half. Don’t forget about IFR instrument checks.
Great information thank you Bobby, Love all of your channels. One thought I would avoid using music with any lyrics beneath your voice-over. Instrumental is better because you are not "competing" with the singer for the viewer's attention. The music bed level on this video was too loud in my opinion. Thanks again for your great content.
Yes, tie downs are cheaper, but the airplane will suffer outside. Weather, wild life, lack of preheat, snow removal, corrosion etc., will all take their toll. Maintenance costs will be higher. Drive around any GA airport and look at the condition of the planes parked outside vs. in a hangar. I wish hangar rent was cheaper.
These numbers are really realistic. Base line of a single engine piston is 10k/year just to have it airworthy in a hangar. Flying is around $100/hour more give or take. Plus always having a couple spare AMUs ready to spend on a whim when a radio goes out or something.
Building your own experimental really impacts these prices significantly. Definitely worth a look into the experimental world. Maybe Bobby could do a video on the costs of owning and maintaining an owner built say RV.
With my Tripacer, purchase is about a third of that, for about the same performance, and my hangar costs are about half that in my area. Insurance is also about half. Splitting fixed costs with a partner works for me as well. So I have about a quarter of the fixed costs. Per hour costs are close to your estimate, though maintenance is less because i do what I legally can myself. I'm just mentioning this as a way it is possible to make this move affordable. For your scenario, I think you nailed it pretty well.
Great video.. i love number crunching like this. I know that you did an "average" cost. But, You should do a video of let's say, Southern California. Like Van Nuys airport in California and maybe the cost of an airport in Kansas. Hangar rental in Van Nuys go for $1,250 or more.Fuel for 100LL goes for $6.85.... Happy that you are back doing airplane videos....
For the annual fixed costs alone, you can build a hell of a virtual cockpit (especially if you do the work) and sims are getting better all the time. This is my route :D
Insurance companies never ask about time on the engine, and do not refuse insurance based on being over TBO. You can check Mike Busch's latest video, Teardown Needed?, where he discusses this very topic.
Those calculations don’t include the monthly repayments on financing the purchase. I’m assuming most people don’t have $100k lying around to drop on a plane. 🙂
There are four periodic big-ticket items that a long-term aircraft owner needs to plan/save for. You accounted for one of them, the engine overhaul. The three other things that ultimately need to be paid for, and should be part of the ownership budget, are repainting and interior refresh/refurbishment and avionics upgrades. Each of these become necessary about every twenty years of ownership. True, an owner can own an airplane for a shorter period and avoid the cash spend, but the aircraft value will decay and the cost will be experienced anyway when the airplane is sold. You may as well budget, spend, and enjoy the improvement in your aircraft. Nice to see my airplane feature in another video. As you can see, I haven’t taken my own advice with respect to the paint job. I guess I’ll experience the expense when/if I ever sell it. For now I’m having too much fun flying it. When people ask me how much money it costs to own an airplane I easily tell them, “All of it.”
LOVE this analysis. The appreciation factor is a tough one, though. Timing the market is everything since the price of these can be very sensitive to the broader economy.
Was in a 45 member flying club for a few years... it is a more affordable option but, with 45 members and 3 airplanes, scheduling could still be an issue. One of my favorite movie lines..."never feel sorry for a man with a plane". Lol!
Overall a good review for a certified aircraft. The only thing I would really question is the commercial airline rates. A short flight that you outlined I doubt would cost as much as you cited. It’s a rare day that a certified airplane will cost less than going commercially. A 172 isn’t going to be fast either, so the commercial airline is likely to beat the 172 at any distance (short or long). The only advantage you’d run into with a 172 is it can go far more direct than what a commercial airline would accomplish. I got tired of paying high hourly rates for the certified aircraft I’ve been using, so I’m building which should slash my hourly rates dramatically. The only killer for me is going to be insurance but that should come down over time. I’m happy to share the video I did going over the costs of certified v. experimental, but I don’t want to be rude and post it here w/out permission.
I also want to add onto this one thing that wasn’t mentioned and I forgot to mention. While a 172 certainly can be a solid IFR platform, the weather is going to be a consideration at all times. A commercial airline has a much greater range of weather capability than a 172. So if the thought would be to replace all airline travel with a 172 you’ll quickly find that doesn’t work. Of course there are private airplanes which can handle a greater range of weather, but the level of “must get there” vs cost exponentially increases with the demand. So you’ll quickly go from the costs outlined here to well north of $100k to provide the ultimate flexibility.
Reasonable numbers. I saw no issue with any of them. If avionics or interior need fixing or replacing that adds to the total cost but that’s being picky with the price you presented. If approximately $20K is in your budget then getting a little fancy with the rest of it won’t bother you. Great video. Thanks again.
I think the 150 hours per year might be a stretch for most GA pilots as that does not represent the "average" GA pilot. The "average" GA pilot flies less than 40 hours per year, so when you take that into account, your hourly rate will skyrocket. Using your numbers, DOC of $67/hr for 40 hours = $2680, Fixed Cost of $10,050, Overhaul Reserve of $1000/yr yields a result of $343.25 per flight hour assuming 40 hours per year average.
Fantastic analysis. You may have covered the total cost of getting a private pilots license to that figure. Wish I had done that while I was still in the Navy.
While the numbers are pretty accurate but adding the appreciation is a little misleading since you only get that back if you sell. You would also pay tax on that appreciation. Also yo missed the monthly loan payment. You would need $100k up front or a monthly payment. My only other thought is that I can rent a 172 for the same price or less per hour with no maintenence or stress of owning a plane. Also if you fly less than 150 per year that cost goes way up. You will save a significant amount based on your calculation if you rent
For a part 91 operator no insurance underwriter ever asked me or anyone I know about engine time or had any issues insuring an over TBO engine airplane
An LSA can be both faster and significantly cheaper to operate. A C172 is an old tractor shaped plane that was a bad design when it was new in 1955. That it's the most prevalent plane in GA is not a point of pride but a symptom of the tragic state of GA. Imagine if people drove 1945 cars and 1945 models were still being produced today and sold for 800k$ as something state of the art. It's frankly unbelievable.
@@agisler87 to be fair it has been a small market buuuuuuuuuuuut holy sh1t status quo isn't being questioned. Just sinks deeper and deeper with ever more outrageous engine prices for designs from 1950.
You could add the lost income from 100k if invested. Using the standard average 8% return on money in S&P 500 fund would add about 8k/year. Just this year is around 25% increase in the S&P. Since the pandemic much more than that. That is, if you paid cash for the plane.
Thanks so much for your video. What also has to be thrown into cost is the opportunity cost of the initial $100,000. Given a 10% return if the $100,000 was invested, that would be an additional cost of $10,000 for the first year, then $11,000 the second year, and on and on with compounding.
These numbers are great to try to convince your Wife or accountant why it would be beneficial to own an airplane. It is a convenience and a great hobby. Also can be expensive. Being in California I would add 30%.
You also should deduct automobile ownership and operating costs if the plane is used for "road trip" type missions. I Drive from Los Angeles to Mammoth at least once a month during winter and spring. I am retired, so I can schedule / re-schedule trips to take advantage of favorable weather. The round-trip drive from LA to Mammoth takes approximately 12 hours and at $.50 per mile costs about $350-$400 in fuel and wear and tear on my vehicle. Let's call it $2,500 per year. If I fly my own plane instead driving up there from I can offset $2,500 per year of those costs. I'll also get there in 1/2 the time, while opening up many other possible travel destinations and ski-resorts that are too far to drive to and enjoy over a weekend. GA Flying is also probably safer than driving the undivided high desert highways I have to traverse in in my car to reach Mammoth. Especially when I end-up driving them at night. It's hard to get accurate comparisons but the flying risks appear to be less than the driving risks, assuming I'm prudent in both cases. Much less (uncontrollable) risk from other pilots in the sky than I have from other drivers on the road. In the end though I'm considering purchasing a plane and learning to fly because it's a lifelong dream. Airplanes are beautiful machines that allow us to fly, giving us unique perspectives on the world and the fastest way to explore it. For $20k per year? That's the deal of a lifetime. My skiing hobby probably costs me half that annually.
Thanks....... The maintenance costs seem to be low compared to my experience. Things such tires, hoses, propeller, bearings, control wires, periodic repaint, interior refurbishing, ELT and instrument re certification, avionics repair etc. add up surprisingly quickly as do avionics upgrades etc. Also missed seems to be the price of in motion insurance etc. My suggestion that a 172 is likely more like $250 / hr to operate based on average flight hours per annum which are much less than the given 150 hrs.
Interesting video Bobby. Very informative. May I suggest using music without vocals as background music as the vocals compete with your voiceover so far as comprehension is concerned.
I agree. I'm viewing too many videos that play music while the person is talking. I find the music is distracting me from hearing and comprehending what is being said.
Most people would be better off renting. My engine overhaul on my Cessna 182 ended up costing $64,000 (after addressing the prop, engine mount, exhaust, etc). These old planes are always breaking. I think $500 per year in unexpected maintenance is not realistic. You also need to update avionics periodically if you fly IFR. Still worth it, but hard to justify owning an airplane.
I agree 100%. He also did not address actually owning the plane. A $100k loan is expensive or you would need $100k up front. In his calculation we would need $68 per hour or $850. So we are up to well over $200 per hour. I can rent way less than that. Or join a flight club and pay around $130 per hour. If I fly less the cost does not go up much.
@@mwclark1979 owning a plane isnt to save money. Its the convenience to go when ever you want. Keep it for the weekend when ever you want. You can not do that in a flight club. Everybody has the same idea. Its not meant to be cost saving owning a plane. Not by a long shot.
Great video. I always wondered what the cost would be to own a small plane. Well now I know. In your example those costs are for a 40+ year old plane and I would guess the cost is a lot more for a newer plane. I'm glad I got into motorcycles and not planes.
Not a bad example, but personally I would get an older complex airplane for the same basic cost and slightly higher operating costs and get 45-50 knots better speed and a higher service ceiling. Something like a PA 28 235 or a Comanche 250.
You need to look at the cost of flying gliders in comparison. Now granted, most don't have the "utility" of a 172, but for pure flying enjoyment, they can't be beat for cost of ownership and operation. A decent fiberglass single-place glider in the 1970s to 1980s vintage is about $25,000 to $40,000. Insurance can be $1,000 to $1,500, depending on glider and pilot experience. Annual is typically around $250/yr, unless they find something that needs to be addressed. While it is nice to hanger your glider while it is assembled (you will fly more often if you don't have to rig it every time before you fly), it can be stored in a trailer and rigged before each flight. That costs you nothing. Parachute inspection (assuming you fly with a parachute) is about $75/yr. Tow costs vary widely, but can be as low as $35 per tow, but often are between $45 to $60. A winch launch can be even cheaper, often $5-$10 per launch. Assuming you are able to find lift, you could fly as long as there is lift and daylight from the one tow, and there are no fuel costs (unless you fly a motorglider). And, you don't need a medical to fly gliders, generally.
I basically second that and if someone wants to travel then some of the motor gliders are superb. I've put 350 hrs + onto a Pipistrel Sinus which, with the usual tweaks will glide at 30:1 +-, will seat 2 side by side, and under power will cruise at either 115 or 125 knots depending on which wingtips are fitted while burning under 10 L. of mogas per hour with a big tank practical range of 8 hours + a 1 hour reserve. There's also a large luggage capacity and an available whole aircraft ballistic parachute.
Aww.. so awesome seeing my old bird here. My Lycoming overhaul was 30K all in (core swap) plus 3K for the prop. If I had to do it all again, I would definitely go with either a much newer Diamond (provided I could find a good A&P who knows how to work on them) or a 182 with a Garmin buildout. My insurance was more as well, but I think that's more because of the flight school vs me flying all the hours myself. The other thing that would be helpful (I can help if you like) would be looking for ways to offset the costs through leaseback, share ownership, etc.
Given all the assumptions it seems about right. Some could find a cheaper hanger, or can do some of their own maintenance. However, it might be out of the scope of this video, but shared ownership offers a ton of savings. I fly in a club and usually less than 50hrs/year. Sole Ownership is much more expensive for my situation, but I want to fly more.
@Olli K. Yessir Mr Olli. I'd wager a jet is three times the cost. But, I wouldn't know. I just go by the "rule of thirds" or is it turds as me Irish granny would say. ✌😆
If you think GA is expensive, it’s a whole level above that for jets. We just finished an inspection on our jet, 20 grand easy. That’s cheap for inspection because we did it in house rather than paying another shop to do it.
I think this number is probably 2x today. You assume nothing wrong happens to airplane for a year, but there's most certainly going to be repairs or upgrades you want to install. Also "appreciation" sounds like bs. Just b/c aircraft prices bubbled up during pandemic, doesn't mean they will continue to climb.
I fly ALOT and I’ve never even touched anywhere near 150 hours in a year. I mean I’m talking trips from Texas to Seattle then all the way to Chicago and back and five trips like that per year or equivalent to the distance along with an hour of joy flight per every few days. I just flew this morning for three hours and still haven’t hit 60 hours for the year and we just got back from Pittsburg last week. It makes me wonder just what the hell you guys are doing flying that many hours a year being a joy flyer in your own aircraft as I cannot even accomplish that if I wanted .🤣 I am extremely fortunate to pay the prices I pay for hanger fees where I’m located because you’ll never see a hanger cost more than $195 per month and they are plentiful. A community hanger nearby is actually only $78 per month. My $195 a month hanger has built in power, a courtesy small empty Craftsman tool box for tool storage, industrial ceiling fan and dehumidifiers if you use these hangers and they are one year leases. There is a massive deposit put forward followed by monthly payment or you just buy it out right for the year. And no, I’m not gonna tell you where this is at. 🤣 That’s WHY it’s so cheap………no one parks anything here with 45 enclosed and climate controlled hangers and community hanger slots every where.
Basically unless your using it at least 125 hours/year it’s cheaper to rent. But there is value in owning even if it cost more. You can use it when you want and you know (at least since you bought it) how it has been treated. I also thought that if I buy your not going to think twice if flying it somewhere and leaving it while you vacation for a few days and you can’t do that with a rental without paying through the nose.
For me, there is also a social component to ownership. People stop by the hangar when I’m prepping/cleaning/updating data bases, etc. 15 minutes at the airport turns into 3 hours and a beer. Ask my wife.😬
So..short answer… flying (and sailing) is for rich folk…watching Bobby and friends on UA-cam is for the rest of us! Wonder what the median income of private plane owners is?
I bought a Cessna 150 for $24,000. We flew around for about $15 per hour in gas. The hangar was $300 per month. You CAN do it on a budget. The best idea is to buy a Cessna 150 with 4-5 guys. You can buy in for $5,000.
Appreciation shouldn't be included in the final cost of the plane. The past isn't a representation of the future and for all we know the plane's value could flat line or decrease in the coming years. Otherwise a good video
I'm 6'4" and did my training and check ride in a 172. It's certainly not roomy, but it was fine. There's a reason they're one of the most popular planes in general aviation. They're easy to handle.
Yowzaa! It's cheaper to hoist a Main, Mizzen, and Genoa by a country mile. You'll see me hauling the sheets. "Way, haul away, haul away Bob." If God wanted us all to own a Cessna, He would have.....
It is totally worth it. But no it's not in my budget, but I bought one anyways. I'll either complete my commercial and get a job flying where my budget will improve, or i'll go broke and have to sell it. It's my midlife YOLO. :)
Most Cessna 172's have a useful load around 900 lbs. So, a "family" would need to be no more than two adults, a couple of small children, and some baggage. So, it makes it hard to compare the GA option to the airlines. Further, the airlines fly in all but the worst weather so you'd also need to budget for an IFR endorsement, currency, and related IFR costs.
You can fly a fully aerobatic quadcopter sim or any other plane sim and controller for about or under $200 if you already own a gaming computer. You can buy a fully aerobatic quadcopter and digital fpv system for under $2000 which will get you up in the air and tearing up the skies You can buy an ultralight and fully enclosed trailer for under $5000. So this guy talking about flying a Cessna 170 straight and level for $100,000... it's a bad joke. My dad use to own a Cessna 172, and I fly it for all of 2 minutes as a kid. 5 minutes of terror landing and the rest of straight an level flying is pure boredom.
Ugh, you really blew it on this one, Bobby. Number one most import rule of plane ownership: never add up the cost!!!
Own a 1975 Cessna 172 four place. Had since 1976. I love my airplane more than my new car.
I'm 98 years old. Still as sharp today as 80 years old. Retired from United Airlines age 65. Had no choice. I then volunteered for 20 years. Thank you from Clearwater Beach Florida Pinellas County.
I have a hard time believing that?
@@Mo-zv5yc lmao yea he's cappin fs
Two complete different types of people right here lol
Can I fly with u?
@@slamandgo You may need to land the plane.
I’ve owned a Cessna 182 in the past and enjoyed the freedom of just going to the airport and jumping in. The down side is the cost. After the initial couple of years most people won’t fly 150 hours. The overall cost per hour becomes much higher. I thought that I would just rent an airplane when I needed it and that has proven just to hard. Availability is the main issue. I would want to use an airplane for long weekend or holidays and they just aren’t available. The FBO can rent a plane like a 172 for many hours on a weekend and would rather do that then give me the plane and only get 4-5 hours. Flying clubs can be a good option but I’ll probably find 3-4 like minded pilots to do a partnership with if and when I decide to jump back in.
I've heard a good approach is to find a/some partner/s. There's a way to work it so everybody benefits but I don't know what it is. Definitely not a cheap date.
Yeah I agree with Nancy. Find someone to share the plane with. I bought a 100k wake boat this way with my brother. We split all the maintenance costs. It works really well.
It works great until one partner is unable to shoulder their load…
I’ve owned a plane for 13 years. These numbers are pretty accurate.
What the!?!? Angela, you're watching the same videos as me!!!
HI Angela, Loved the video on your page. The little guy is a star!
Best option, find a group that is looking for a new member. I bought into a group and was able to afford a much better aircraft than I could have as a sole owner. Also, as a new pilot, I was able to learn the pitfalls of aircraft ownership.
If you don’t mind me asking do you all split the expenses evenly? How do you determine Aircraft availability? I’m asking because I came across an opportunity to be a fifth member of a partnership. Just trying to do some research.
I know your comment is old but the way we did it is this way: plane ownership is split equally (bank loan payments, insurance, storage, annual inspection, etc.) for operational costs we got a third party consultant approved by everyone to estimate the replacement and lifetime maintenance cost of every mayor component as well as the hours left in each component. We then have a beautiful spreadsheet that divides cost by hours left of each part and adds it all up. That total amount is multiplied by the total of hours flown and is deposited into our partnership bank account after every flight. When an actual expense occurs the money saved is used to pay and we adjust the spreadsheet to reflect the actual cost and hours in service of that since last replacement. If the actual cost was less than the replacement we saved the difference is paid back prorated to hours flown.
Sounds complicated but in practice is not, since the spreadsheet does the heavy lifting!
Instead you learned the pitfalls of sharing a plane.
Hey Bobby glad to see another of these pop up. We should probably discount value appreciation, as the huge price gains have primarily been in the last few years and likely cannot continue - your example 1975 172 will likely not be $150k in 20 years when it is 66 years old. I have a simple rule of thumb budget after owning and operating for many many years - 1 propeller = $20k/year; 2 propellers = $40k year; jets are about 5% of the purchase price per year. As with all things, your mileage may vary and I have years where expense was well less, and also a few where it was well more. But the reality is unless you are using an aircraft for business (i.e. making money) there is no way to justify the cost. It is ridiculously expensive, and only going to get worse. you do it because you love it, can somewhat afford it, and/or because your spouse doesn't know how much it really costs. keep the blue side up!
You my friend, are my new drinking buddy! Thanks for honest input!😉👍
100% agree with this comment. Every owner I know runs the expenses through their LLC and it’s the only way they justify the cost. These birds cost $50k/year to operate plus the opportunity cost of the money tied up in the purchase price. Rent a Cirrus at $450/hour when you want to travel rather than buying one - it’ll save you seven figures over your flying lifetime.
Insurance cost varies widely depending on your experience, age, how often you fly, hull value, etc. I think your insurance estimate is low by almost half. Don’t forget about IFR instrument checks.
Great information thank you Bobby, Love all of your channels. One thought I would avoid using music with any lyrics beneath your voice-over. Instrumental is better because you are not "competing" with the singer for the viewer's attention. The music bed level on this video was too loud in my opinion. Thanks again for your great content.
Also, personal property tax in some states. In CA it's around 1.2% of appraised value depending on where you live.
Cali is a prison
You can save $5000-6000 a year by not renting a hanger. Tie down is roughly $100-140 a month. Just buy a canopy cover.
Yes, tie downs are cheaper, but the airplane will suffer outside. Weather, wild life, lack of preheat, snow removal, corrosion etc., will all take their toll. Maintenance costs will be higher. Drive around any GA airport and look at the condition of the planes parked outside vs. in a hangar. I wish hangar rent was cheaper.
These numbers are really realistic. Base line of a single engine piston is 10k/year just to have it airworthy in a hangar. Flying is around $100/hour more give or take. Plus always having a couple spare AMUs ready to spend on a whim when a radio goes out or something.
Building your own experimental really impacts these prices significantly. Definitely worth a look into the experimental world. Maybe Bobby could do a video on the costs of owning and maintaining an owner built say RV.
Not to mention I can work on my own plane if it's an experimental.
@@recrdholdr only if you are the original builder.
Ask a current RV builder how it’s working out for them…
@@diflyboy9063 I am a current builder and it’s going great! More expensive and annoying back logs but oh well. The point still stands
With my Tripacer, purchase is about a third of that, for about the same performance, and my hangar costs are about half that in my area. Insurance is also about half. Splitting fixed costs with a partner works for me as well. So I have about a quarter of the fixed costs. Per hour costs are close to your estimate, though maintenance is less because i do what I legally can myself. I'm just mentioning this as a way it is possible to make this move affordable. For your scenario, I think you nailed it pretty well.
When I started flying it was 14.00 per hour for dual instruction.
Great video.. i love number crunching like this. I know that you did an "average" cost. But, You should do a video of let's say, Southern California. Like Van Nuys airport in California and maybe the cost of an airport in Kansas. Hangar rental in Van Nuys go for $1,250 or more.Fuel for 100LL goes for $6.85.... Happy that you are back doing airplane videos....
I own c182 flying 100 hours a year: fuel 12g/h, insurance, annual, parking, gps/app updates,2 oil changes equal about $950 a month without repair
For the annual fixed costs alone, you can build a hell of a virtual cockpit (especially if you do the work) and sims are getting better all the time. This is my route :D
Insurance companies never ask about time on the engine, and do not refuse insurance based on being over TBO. You can check Mike Busch's latest video, Teardown Needed?, where he discusses this very topic.
Very good break down. You answered every possible question one could ask about plane ownership.
Those calculations don’t include the monthly repayments on financing the purchase. I’m assuming most people don’t have $100k lying around to drop on a plane. 🙂
There are four periodic big-ticket items that a long-term aircraft owner needs to plan/save for. You accounted for one of them, the engine overhaul. The three other things that ultimately need to be paid for, and should be part of the ownership budget, are repainting and interior refresh/refurbishment and avionics upgrades. Each of these become necessary about every twenty years of ownership. True, an owner can own an airplane for a shorter period and avoid the cash spend, but the aircraft value will decay and the cost will be experienced anyway when the airplane is sold. You may as well budget, spend, and enjoy the improvement in your aircraft. Nice to see my airplane feature in another video. As you can see, I haven’t taken my own advice with respect to the paint job. I guess I’ll experience the expense when/if I ever sell it. For now I’m having too much fun flying it. When people ask me how much money it costs to own an airplane I easily tell them, “All of it.”
LOVE this analysis. The appreciation factor is a tough one, though. Timing the market is everything since the price of these can be very sensitive to the broader economy.
Was in a 45 member flying club for a few years... it is a more affordable option but, with 45 members and 3 airplanes, scheduling could still be an issue. One of my favorite movie lines..."never feel sorry for a man with a plane". Lol!
Overall a good review for a certified aircraft. The only thing I would really question is the commercial airline rates. A short flight that you outlined I doubt would cost as much as you cited. It’s a rare day that a certified airplane will cost less than going commercially. A 172 isn’t going to be fast either, so the commercial airline is likely to beat the 172 at any distance (short or long). The only advantage you’d run into with a 172 is it can go far more direct than what a commercial airline would accomplish.
I got tired of paying high hourly rates for the certified aircraft I’ve been using, so I’m building which should slash my hourly rates dramatically. The only killer for me is going to be insurance but that should come down over time. I’m happy to share the video I did going over the costs of certified v. experimental, but I don’t want to be rude and post it here w/out permission.
Thanks for the info.
I also want to add onto this one thing that wasn’t mentioned and I forgot to mention. While a 172 certainly can be a solid IFR platform, the weather is going to be a consideration at all times. A commercial airline has a much greater range of weather capability than a 172. So if the thought would be to replace all airline travel with a 172 you’ll quickly find that doesn’t work. Of course there are private airplanes which can handle a greater range of weather, but the level of “must get there” vs cost exponentially increases with the demand. So you’ll quickly go from the costs outlined here to well north of $100k to provide the ultimate flexibility.
It's honestly about like owning a nice offshore boat, so now you have to make a decision; boat or plane
Reasonable numbers. I saw no issue with any of them. If avionics or interior need fixing or replacing that adds to the total cost but that’s being picky with the price you presented. If approximately $20K is in your budget then getting a little fancy with the rest of it won’t bother you. Great video. Thanks again.
I think the 150 hours per year might be a stretch for most GA pilots as that does not represent the "average" GA pilot. The "average" GA pilot flies less than 40 hours per year, so when you take that into account, your hourly rate will skyrocket.
Using your numbers, DOC of $67/hr for 40 hours = $2680, Fixed Cost of $10,050, Overhaul Reserve of $1000/yr yields a result of $343.25 per flight hour assuming 40 hours per year average.
Fantastic analysis. You may have covered the total cost of getting a private pilots license to that figure. Wish I had done that while I was still in the Navy.
While the numbers are pretty accurate but adding the appreciation is a little misleading since you only get that back if you sell. You would also pay tax on that appreciation. Also yo missed the monthly loan payment. You would need $100k up front or a monthly payment. My only other thought is that I can rent a 172 for the same price or less per hour with no maintenence or stress of owning a plane. Also if you fly less than 150 per year that cost goes way up. You will save a significant amount based on your calculation if you rent
Try to go somewhere for the weekend with a rental. Etc. Its not cost saving. Its convenient,thats it
For a part 91 operator no insurance underwriter ever asked me or anyone I know about engine time or had any issues insuring an over TBO engine airplane
Agree 100%. They could care less about being over TBO. They only ask for hours as it pertains to replacement value (total loss, prop strike, etc.)
An LSA can be both faster and significantly cheaper to operate. A C172 is an old tractor shaped plane that was a bad design when it was new in 1955. That it's the most prevalent plane in GA is not a point of pride but a symptom of the tragic state of GA. Imagine if people drove 1945 cars and 1945 models were still being produced today and sold for 800k$ as something state of the art. It's frankly unbelievable.
Yes, such a terrible design, they only managed to sell 30,000 of them.
I agree. I think the certification process of aircraft is really holding back GA. These experimentals are just amazing.
@@agisler87 to be fair it has been a small market buuuuuuuuuuuut holy sh1t status quo isn't being questioned. Just sinks deeper and deeper with ever more outrageous engine prices for designs from 1950.
Your math and assumptions are spot on for a 172. I own a seneca II.
You could add the lost income from 100k if invested. Using the standard average 8% return on money in S&P 500 fund would add about 8k/year. Just this year is around 25% increase in the S&P. Since the pandemic much more than that. That is, if you paid cash for the plane.
Thanks so much for your video. What also has to be thrown into cost is the opportunity cost of the initial $100,000. Given a 10% return if the $100,000 was invested, that would be an additional cost of $10,000 for the first year, then $11,000 the second year, and on and on with compounding.
Another thing to look at is the possibility of taking out a loan and the interest when purchasing the aircraft.
Fractional ownership can be an option, but not always convenient or available.
These numbers are great to try to convince your Wife or accountant why it would be beneficial to own an airplane. It is a convenience and a great hobby. Also can be expensive. Being in California I would add 30%.
You also should deduct automobile ownership and operating costs if the plane is used for "road trip" type missions. I Drive from Los Angeles to Mammoth at least once a month during winter and spring. I am retired, so I can schedule / re-schedule trips to take advantage of favorable weather. The round-trip drive from LA to Mammoth takes approximately 12 hours and at $.50 per mile costs about $350-$400 in fuel and wear and tear on my vehicle. Let's call it $2,500 per year. If I fly my own plane instead driving up there from I can offset $2,500 per year of those costs. I'll also get there in 1/2 the time, while opening up many other possible travel destinations and ski-resorts that are too far to drive to and enjoy over a weekend.
GA Flying is also probably safer than driving the undivided high desert highways I have to traverse in in my car to reach Mammoth. Especially when I end-up driving them at night. It's hard to get accurate comparisons but the flying risks appear to be less than the driving risks, assuming I'm prudent in both cases. Much less (uncontrollable) risk from other pilots in the sky than I have from other drivers on the road.
In the end though I'm considering purchasing a plane and learning to fly because it's a lifelong dream. Airplanes are beautiful machines that allow us to fly, giving us unique perspectives on the world and the fastest way to explore it.
For $20k per year?
That's the deal of a lifetime. My skiing hobby probably costs me half that annually.
Thanks.......
The maintenance costs seem to be low compared to my experience. Things such tires, hoses, propeller, bearings, control wires, periodic repaint, interior refurbishing, ELT and instrument re certification, avionics repair etc. add up surprisingly quickly as do avionics upgrades etc. Also missed seems to be the price of in motion insurance etc. My suggestion that a 172 is likely more like $250 / hr to operate based on average flight hours per annum which are much less than the given 150 hrs.
Thank you. It would be interesting to compare renting a plane in the same scenario.
I'm are c172 rent cost 190 so it's about $29k and you need renter insurance ... you can't rent whenever you want
Interesting video Bobby. Very informative. May I suggest using music without vocals as background music as the vocals compete with your voiceover so far as comprehension is concerned.
I agree. I'm viewing too many videos that play music while the person is talking. I find the music is distracting me from hearing and comprehending what is being said.
Please use selective hearing.
@@markmnorcal My mom says I have that....
@@markmnorcal I wish I could but a brain injury wiped that out.
Most people would be better off renting. My engine overhaul on my Cessna 182 ended up costing $64,000 (after addressing the prop, engine mount, exhaust, etc). These old planes are always breaking. I think $500 per year in unexpected maintenance is not realistic. You also need to update avionics periodically if you fly IFR. Still worth it, but hard to justify owning an airplane.
I agree 100%. He also did not address actually owning the plane. A $100k loan is expensive or you would need $100k up front. In his calculation we would need $68 per hour or $850. So we are up to well over $200 per hour. I can rent way less than that. Or join a flight club and pay around $130 per hour. If I fly less the cost does not go up much.
@@mwclark1979 owning a plane isnt to save money. Its the convenience to go when ever you want. Keep it for the weekend when ever you want. You can not do that in a flight club. Everybody has the same idea. Its not meant to be cost saving owning a plane. Not by a long shot.
It would be interesting to compare a Light Sport Aircraft with the Cessna.
Expensive hobby and passion!
Incredible video still.
Great video. I always wondered what the cost would be to own a small plane. Well now I know. In your example those costs are for a 40+ year old plane and I would guess the cost is a lot more for a newer plane. I'm glad I got into motorcycles and not planes.
Not a bad example, but personally I would get an older complex airplane for the same basic cost and slightly higher operating costs and get 45-50 knots better speed and a higher service ceiling. Something like a PA 28 235 or a Comanche 250.
I would too… just used the Cessna because it’s super popular
Agree! Love my 1960 Comanche 250!
You need to look at the cost of flying gliders in comparison. Now granted, most don't have the "utility" of a 172, but for pure flying enjoyment, they can't be beat for cost of ownership and operation.
A decent fiberglass single-place glider in the 1970s to 1980s vintage is about $25,000 to $40,000. Insurance can be $1,000 to $1,500, depending on glider and pilot experience. Annual is typically around $250/yr, unless they find something that needs to be addressed. While it is nice to hanger your glider while it is assembled (you will fly more often if you don't have to rig it every time before you fly), it can be stored in a trailer and rigged before each flight. That costs you nothing. Parachute inspection (assuming you fly with a parachute) is about $75/yr. Tow costs vary widely, but can be as low as $35 per tow, but often are between $45 to $60. A winch launch can be even cheaper, often $5-$10 per launch. Assuming you are able to find lift, you could fly as long as there is lift and daylight from the one tow, and there are no fuel costs (unless you fly a motorglider).
And, you don't need a medical to fly gliders, generally.
I basically second that and if someone wants to travel then some of the motor gliders are superb. I've put 350 hrs + onto a Pipistrel Sinus which, with the usual tweaks will glide at 30:1 +-, will seat 2 side by side, and under power will cruise at either 115 or 125 knots depending on which wingtips are fitted while burning under 10 L. of mogas per hour with a big tank practical range of 8 hours + a 1 hour reserve. There's also a large luggage capacity and an available whole aircraft ballistic parachute.
Well-done Bobby, thank you for the elaboration.
Glad you are back to posting!!!
Aww.. so awesome seeing my old bird here. My Lycoming overhaul was 30K all in (core swap) plus 3K for the prop. If I had to do it all again, I would definitely go with either a much newer Diamond (provided I could find a good A&P who knows how to work on them) or a 182 with a Garmin buildout. My insurance was more as well, but I think that's more because of the flight school vs me flying all the hours myself.
The other thing that would be helpful (I can help if you like) would be looking for ways to offset the costs through leaseback, share ownership, etc.
Happy New Years Bobby! Great to see new content on this channel.
Very nice presentation Bobby. Much thanks.
Given all the assumptions it seems about right. Some could find a cheaper hanger, or can do some of their own maintenance. However, it might be out of the scope of this video, but shared ownership offers a ton of savings. I fly in a club and usually less than 50hrs/year. Sole Ownership is much more expensive for my situation, but I want to fly more.
Would like to know how much it cost to own the jets you used to fly. How much was fuel, maintenance, overhaul, gauze pads and ball bearings.
If you have to ask…. ;)
@Olli K. Yessir Mr Olli. I'd wager a jet is three times the cost. But, I wouldn't know. I just go by the "rule of thirds" or is it turds as me Irish granny would say. ✌😆
$$$$$$$$$
When I started flying it was 4 for instructor and 7 for a Luscombe. That was 1965.
If you think GA is expensive, it’s a whole level above that for jets.
We just finished an inspection on our jet, 20 grand easy. That’s cheap for inspection because we did it in house rather than paying another shop to do it.
I think this number is probably 2x today. You assume nothing wrong happens to airplane for a year, but there's most certainly going to be repairs or upgrades you want to install. Also "appreciation" sounds like bs. Just b/c aircraft prices bubbled up during pandemic, doesn't mean they will continue to climb.
I fly ALOT and I’ve never even touched anywhere near 150 hours in a year. I mean I’m talking trips from Texas to Seattle then all the way to Chicago and back and five trips like that per year or equivalent to the distance along with an hour of joy flight per every few days. I just flew this morning for three hours and still haven’t hit 60 hours for the year and we just got back from Pittsburg last week. It makes me wonder just what the hell you guys are doing flying that many hours a year being a joy flyer in your own aircraft as I cannot even accomplish that if I wanted .🤣
I am extremely fortunate to pay the prices I pay for hanger fees where I’m located because you’ll never see a hanger cost more than $195 per month and they are plentiful. A community hanger nearby is actually only $78 per month. My $195 a month hanger has built in power, a courtesy small empty Craftsman tool box for tool storage, industrial ceiling fan and dehumidifiers if you use these hangers and they are one year leases. There is a massive deposit put forward followed by monthly payment or you just buy it out right for the year. And no, I’m not gonna tell you where this is at. 🤣 That’s WHY it’s so cheap………no one parks anything here with 45 enclosed and climate controlled hangers and community hanger slots every where.
When I started flying in 1966 a Cessna 150, rent was $5.00 an hour. The new cost of a Cessna 150 was about $5500.00. What went wrong?
Inflation. What was the avg hourly pay working? Not a good comparison. Prolly about the same in todays costs
Basically unless your using it at least 125 hours/year it’s cheaper to rent. But there is value in owning even if it cost more. You can use it when you want and you know (at least since you bought it) how it has been treated. I also thought that if I buy your not going to think twice if flying it somewhere and leaving it while you vacation for a few days and you can’t do that with a rental without paying through the nose.
For me, there is also a social component to ownership. People stop by the hangar when I’m prepping/cleaning/updating data bases, etc. 15 minutes at the airport turns into 3 hours and a beer. Ask my wife.😬
@@cessna177flyer3 that’s very true with my boat as well.
Very cool. Expensive but it’s a luxury to own your own plane. I wonder what the process is if you’re flying out of the country.
Great breakdown. Best I have seen
Love these videos. Thank you!
Good assessment. I am wondering what the yearly cost would be on a homebuilt aircraft (fixed wing) with up to 3 passengers.
Cool cool. Excellent analysis.
Did you factor in the cost of the actual purchase into the $22k per year?
So..short answer… flying (and sailing) is for rich folk…watching Bobby and friends on UA-cam is for the rest of us!
Wonder what the median income of private plane owners is?
I bought a Cessna 150 for $24,000. We flew around for about $15 per hour in gas. The hangar was $300 per month. You CAN do it on a budget. The best idea is to buy a Cessna 150 with 4-5 guys. You can buy in for $5,000.
I know it's just stock footage, but what is the plane at 2:23 and 4:14? A couple of companies use a still of this in their ads, and they can't answer.
The annual cost of operation for the airplane is probably less than Bobby's annual alcohol budget for Sailing Doodles.😂
And the cost of replacing burned and sunk boats as well
Great video and analysis.
My own opinion is that the convenience of owning your own airplane is a lot easier than renting or using an airline.
Bloody hell I need to win the lottery! Ahh well X-Plane 12 it is then 😂
Rent or charter anything that floats,Flys or f#@ks.
Awesome. Keep doing this same break down with real world examples if people will share their numbers
Great video & info. Music is distracting:(
Everything has sky rocketed, not just planes. Food, transportation, almost ANY consumer good... etc. etc.
How did fix cost jump from 3700.00 to 9200 where did I miss the extra $5,500.00?
Airplanes don't appreciate, the fiat money inflates. If it didn't inflate then we'd see less expensive planes, cars, houses, etc.
Many aircraft have increased in price at a pace that far exceeds inflation
@@doctortmd Most of those aircraft are not based in Florida or over 50 years old.
@@doctortmd Because only the top 5% to maybe 10% can participate in the
Hobby/ Recreation. Run the numbers. 😏
@@doctortmd also...its a currency issue! AirCraft, lovem!!
@@doctortmd for sure. $25K back in the day, now is $400K for the same plane; albeit with better avionics, essentially the same engines
Bobby, I thought that you had given up on this channel! Come on out to California, and we can fly the Cessna 414.
Tony Williams
San Diego
ive been thinking of getting the a340-300 its a good one
Appreciation shouldn't be included in the final cost of the plane. The past isn't a representation of the future and for all we know the plane's value could flat line or decrease in the coming years. Otherwise a good video
Sucks the cost have ownership has gone crazy these last coupla yrs
GREAT content!
Nice if you have $100k for the initial purchase... Adding finance can change the number dramatically.
Apparently only 20% of all aircraft purchases lately are financed
Thank you for the info
Well done and pretty much on target.
You make me feel
Ike I should sell my 182
how does $3,700 become $9,200?
dont these things fall out of the sky all the time? we had a family of 4 disappear in ohio flying back from florida
No they dont
cessna 172 good for tall man,for training? I'm 6'4 (194cm) any idea
I'm 6'4" and did my training and check ride in a 172. It's certainly not roomy, but it was fine. There's a reason they're one of the most popular planes in general aviation. They're easy to handle.
@@massiveheadwoundharry6833 thanks
What did we do to get you back?
As the fella once said, if it flies, floats, or f*cks, you're better off renting!
Yowzaa! It's cheaper to hoist a Main, Mizzen, and Genoa by a country mile. You'll see me hauling the sheets. "Way, haul away, haul away Bob." If God wanted us all to own a Cessna, He would have.....
It is totally worth it. But no it's not in my budget, but I bought one anyways. I'll either complete my commercial and get a job flying where my budget will improve, or i'll go broke and have to sell it. It's my midlife YOLO. :)
and the industry wonders why there aren't more pilots...
About 70$ a day
Oh well, it looks like I'm sticking with my Raleigh Chopper then 😋
Most Cessna 172's have a useful load around 900 lbs. So, a "family" would need to be no more than two adults, a couple of small children, and some baggage. So, it makes it hard to compare the GA option to the airlines. Further, the airlines fly in all but the worst weather so you'd also need to budget for an IFR endorsement, currency, and related IFR costs.
Okay, okay, enough with the costs. We here for the sexy flight suits.
My civic would gap that in a race
Thanks
You can fly a fully aerobatic quadcopter sim or any other plane sim and controller for about or under $200 if you already own a gaming computer.
You can buy a fully aerobatic quadcopter and digital fpv system for under $2000 which will get you up in the air and tearing up the skies
You can buy an ultralight and fully enclosed trailer for under $5000.
So this guy talking about flying a Cessna 170 straight and level for $100,000... it's a bad joke.
My dad use to own a Cessna 172, and I fly it for all of 2 minutes as a kid. 5 minutes of terror landing and the rest of straight an level flying is pure boredom.