LOOK OUT For These 5 Things On Low-Priced Airplanes
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- I've looked through sooo many aircraft listings online and got excited about a "good deal" I think I've spotted based on the purchase price. Then once you look through the listing you realize there's a good reason it's priced the way it is. In this video I wanted to cover some of the factors driving low aircraft prices, and a more effective way that I've learned to do aircraft research if you're serious about buying one day.
I hope it serves you in your aviation journey!
Video Chapters:
0:00 When Asking Price Looks Good…
0:42 5 Factors Causing Airplanes to Have a Low Price
1:12 Factor #1
1:59 Factor #2
3:02 Factor #3
3:40 Factor #4
4:44 Factor #5
5:42 How to Sort Airplane Listings
6:14 How to Build a Pricing Tracker
7:00 Starting Point
7:47 Data Points for Pricing Tracker
10:42 The Benefit of Having a Pricing Tracker
11:38 Planes Cost More Than the Purchase Price
12:17 You’ll Have the Data You Need
Also mentioned in the video, 7 airplanes that are $40/day to own and operate: • How much does an airpl...
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How about general environment? All other factors being equal, I’d be far more inclined to buy a 7500 hr 172 that has spent it’s entire life hangared in Arizona than a low-time 172 that has been tied down outside in Florida!
key word "Hangered" We can cook a perfectly good airframe in a couple years...
Absolutely. Even if hangared in Florida, there is always salt in the air.
I've thought about flying for many years and am now in a position to get serious about and your channel is fueling the fire. Subscribed and binge watching. Thanks for all the help and ideas so far.
That's awesome!! Glad you are enjoying the channel.
I’d include airworthiness directives for a given aircraft. Things like spar inspections can essentially result in repairs far exceeding the ac value. Another thing is insurability, does your piloting experience allow you to insure the ac at an affordable rate? Lastly, I’d consider average annual maintenance costs.
Great advice and I always like the way you index your videos.
Glad you found it helpful and thank you for the feedback!
Nice presentation. The double edged sword of the internet is that you have access to aircraft across the country, but the reality of purchasing an aircraft outside your area is a challenge. There is no substitute for seeing an airplane in-person and trying to travel to see the aircraft, supervise a pre-buy (shops backed up), and ferry the airplane can be daunting. If there is a local airplane available that maybe isn't your perfect match, it may be better than going after the golden ring out of town.
I had a chance to buy a 30-some year old V tail Beech at a ridiculously low price of $25K. It was owned by an A&P whose A&P father bought it new. It was always hangared. Perfect factory shipped shape. And that last thing was the problem: it still had the original coffee grinder radios that were being outlawed. It would have needed a whole new panel.
I’d rather find a high time engine SMO and rebuild it with a shop of my choice
Love how clear, intelligent, and greatly put together this video is!
Thanks so much!
That’s some great information, Thanks ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Excellent, very informative vid. Dry inland hangared and who serviced it for the last 30 plus years to a lesser extent keeps future costs down.
Helpful information, thank you for sharing bro !!
Great video and information! As an aspiring private pilot, this is one of the more helpful videos I’ve seen. Not just click bate. Keep them coming!
Thanks so much! Glad you find the videos helpful!
Another thing I look at is how often was it flown since the engine was overhaul. It could have only 100 hours since overhaul but that was in the last 10 years. That engine will probably not make it to TBO or could have internal corrosion. Also, where was it based and was it hangared or tie down. If it was based in a salt air environment that could be a red flag for corrosion.
That is my number one.
Thats my first thing too to ask or check out.
Exactly, most TBOs are 2,000 hours or 12 years. Time needs to be considered along with engine hours
This was a great vid esp the bit about the spreadsheet. Helped me to buy my 140 and make sense of what was out there as a first time plane buyer.
"Out of date Avionics"
I still fly VOR so as long as everything still works... XD
VFR - visual follows roads. I tend to do that flying to my parents, lot s of desert and s few mountains. Dont really want to land in those places if something went stupid with the engine could be 50 miles to a highway or worse medical attention ( hope not).
Excellent video with important advice.
Always great videos and information. I just completed a two year build on a 210 and I don’t recommend it. Factoring in how much down time to do upgrades is a huge expense. From experience double the time you are told to complete the job and add 50% to the price. You will get what you want if you are willing to wait for it though.
starting my flying journey on thursday, i did not know i could do this at 20 years old. i thought i needed to be rich until i found your videos. thank you
This is awesome!! Keep me posted on your journey!
Charlie, a great video. I like your spreadsheet for accessing purchase price of planes.
Glad you enjoyed!
Very timely. I'm in the market now and I'll construct a spreadsheet like yours. Thanks!
This is SO helpful! Thank you.
I'm so glad!
Very helpful. Thank you.
thanks for the tip, u had been compiling in my head all this time... I think I will make a spread sheet to help
Thanks for this information. It was really simple, straightforward and helpful.
Sure thing! Glad it was helpful!
Great video. I have noticed those things. I saw a great listing on a Commancie. Everything looked great till I got to the part about the wheels up landing.
Thanks for your great information 💁♀️
This is the video I needed - thank you so much!
Sure thing! Glad it is helpful!
Great data Charlie
This is exactly what I’m doing to research a Cessna cardinal. I built a spreadsheet capturing engine time, airframe time, prop time, avionics, paint age, etc
This helped compare different planes
My emphasis was on engine time
Thanks for helping me confirm my approach to shopping for my plane
Thanks Rick, that's great! Sounds like you're on top of it. I have never flown a cardinal but I know the ownership community is really loyal to them. Seems like a great plane!
Thank you. Great Vid..
This is VERY helpful. Thank you!
Awesome!! I'm so glad!
Useful info Charlie!
Awesome! So glad you find it helpful.
Great work 👏
Great video! Thank you 🙂
Sure thing! Glad you enjoyed.
Great video! I’m watching this while at work at an airport.
Nice!!
I'm going through this exact process a the moment as a beginner. This information and all your other videos have excellent content and information. Put that together with the additional information in the comments make this a great channel. Thank you.
Wow! Thanks so much! I'm really glad the videos are so helpful for you!
much appreciated!
Thank you!!!
I appreciate you sharing your spreadsheet model. I know you've mentioned it before but seeing it was very helpful.
I'm so glad it's helpful!
Just found your channel - love your informative videos. Currently renting 172/182s, hoping to purchase a plane of my own someday.
So glad you are enjoying the channel!!
Great information as I am looking into learning to fly a glider. All the information applies to all types of aircraft. I intend to buy a glider so the information was very helpful.
Great postings Charlie! Found you on You Tube a few months ago. My son and I are going through the process of trying to find the perfect 182. For first time buyers your information is tailored for us, just perfect. Keep it up, your service is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Linda! So glad you've found it helpful. You will LOVE the 182. If you didn't see last week's video, I did a whole bit on how much I love that airplane. I'm working on more airplane buying and ownership content including a course of the buying process from A-Z. I wish there was more out there on this so I'm working on it. Anyways, good luck in the search! You've picked a wonderful airplane to look for :)
Thanks Charlie!
Thank you so much this video really helped me, I am in the market looking for a plane.
So glad it was helpful! Keep me posted on what you find!
Shoulder harnesses might be another column to add. And some panel and radio upgrades are mandatory for a lot of airspaces, like ADS-B out and mode C transponder.
I just heard someone say that on an older plane, you are essentially buying the engine and you get the plane attached to it for free.
Same as a used boat.
is that good or bad?
Thank you for your valuable info. Quick questions:
Generally speaking is Total Time between 2000 - 6000 good ?
Overhaul is usually around 2000 hours ?
What is a good time for prop?
This is different for ever plane, engine, and usecase. An hour of trainer flight is harder on an airframe than an hour of charter, for example. And some planes are better able to take a beating than others. Engines are complex mechanical beasts that are different model to model, so you'll need to see what model engine is in the plane then lookup the manual for that engine to see what the overhaul time is. Some engines have a TBO of 200 hours, some 2000. There's wide variability, although the big name brands tend to have ~1500 hour TBO.
Also look at how many hours have been put onto the engine since the last overhaul. An engine that only has 1 hour on it over 10 years is probably going to need a lot of maintenance just to get it running safely again.
You have a similar issue with propellers which have model-specific TBO and overall calendar time issues. But, the major brands have a similar ~1500 TBO. Seems like the big parts of the plane have similar TBOs to make maintenance easier?
Something I added to my spreadsheet was a cost-per-hour column for those who will utilize the "pay myself to fly" method. Factor in SMOH for engine and prop (for complex) and I also added a reserve for upgrading those things you mentioned that could bring the price down, like paint, avionics, etc. So 0 points for paint requires $50 reserve to get the job done sooner, and a 3-point plane needs $10. A plane with 500SMOH needs $27 per hour reserve while one with 1500SMOH needs $80. The values are mostly arbitrary, but I find that a plane with a higher purchase price costs less "per hour" to operate. You can also see the theoretical cost between planes, like between one model with 1500TBO and one with 2000TBO, or simple vs complex, etc. I've never owned a plane, so I don't know if these numbers will ever be more than theoretical, but they make sense to me.
Brother, you have found a niche in the aviation environment. You present practical, sound, and reliable information that will be of use to the buyer. Excellent information as I'm looking to buy my first plane. Thank you.👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks so much! Glad the channel is helpful. Keep me posted!
Great vedio,on purchase and picking the right flight instructor,I was very fortunate to have a dad,that we could nit see eye to eye,on some things, are should I say I could not be perfect enough for him.but was rated in multi engine ATP helicopter, and the best help.was competed in aerobatics at the highest level of competitive in his career, I have etched in my brain how to recover from a spin.reduce,throttle, nuetrilize,controls,opposite rudder,come right out of spin
Engin would probably depend on the number of hours you plan to put on it based on your rental usage and free time, also there is time put on the plane the last 5 years. I have seen online people buying or looking at planes that has sat over 5 years because the former owner got too old to fly but never got around to selling the plane. The digital instruments that fit into steam gauge holes have gotten quite cheap, I think some have Bluetooth connectivity to your iPad flight program, there are also dash top Bluetooth connections.
I'm a student pilot and plan of purchasing a Rockwell Commander 112a in the future. So, your videos will diffently assist with this purchase. I have a fixed and viable cost spreadsheet that I have to ensure compliance with all budget requirements for me. My monthly budget is $1790. Thats with a 10 year payoff.
Solid info
Thank you!
Great video Charlie! Quick question, when making your spreadsheet and filling in the aircraft you're interested in, would you just fill out the spreadsheet with aircraft that only have the price listed on the ad already or for the ones listed as "call for price" would you call and see what they are asking for it even if you aren't planning to purchase an airplane soon.
Thanks and good question. It depends on how many listings were available... if there is a lot of data I wouldn't bother calling. But some of the more rare planes or newer planes have a "call for price" sticker on it and you'd have to go through that process in order to populate the spreadsheet.
Call for price always frustrates me. You trying to sell me something? You don't want to give me probably the single most pertinent data point until I spend my time to call you? Pass.
The few times I have called for price, especially to dealers, is a precious 30 minutes where I can't get off the phone without being rude.
This is useful information
So glad you find it helpful!
great vid
Thank you!
Hi Charlie! I dicovered your chanell resently and I like it so far. Another considerations will be A): high/low wing aircrafts; B): single/multi engine and C); normaly or turbocharged engine airplanes. About of the rest of your sheets, I agree. Greetings from NE patagonia, Argentina.
Thanks Walter. That's a good point... I didn't mention it because I assumed that your spreadsheet would all be of the same type of airplane (ex. normally aspirated 182's, which would answer the three points you mentioned). But if you were using the spreadsheet for different types of airplanes then yes you'd definitely want this info in some additional columns.
@@AirplaneAcademy thank´s for taking your time yo answer. Cheers!
Lenders also have requirements. Max airfame time, Engine TBO, Engine TIME SINCE LAST overhaul etc. These can be arbitrary or changed at the whim of the lender. Read the fine print.
Now a real excuse to obsessively analyze planes for sale that I currently can't afford, Thanks!
Thank you for your information and I appreciate it a lot and now I’m looking forward to getting on the road to finally get the right one
Awesome! Glad you found it useful. Best of luck in your search!
Loving this channel, thank you. What would be high air time and is that model specific? For instance are certain models/ makes with x air time considered high but another make/ model it would be considered low?
Thank you! Good question... I wouldn't throw out an exact number that fits all situations... kind of depends on the airplane. For example, while you can probably find some 30-40 year old airplanes with only a couple of thousand hours on the airframe, it's more rare to find a Cessna 206 with that low of time on it just because they are workhorses. So kind of depends on the airplane and also what it was used for. 7,000 hours of flying from two different owners over 40 years is a lot different than 7,000 hours at a flight school. You can bet the flight school plane has been put through many more hard landings than the other airplane. So, it's all kind of relative. Worth reading and inquiring about the airplane's full history. Good to think about how many hours per year was it flying and what kind of flying was it.
@@AirplaneAcademy thanks very much that is a helpful answer. Funny you mention the 206 because that's what I've been thinking about :)
Whats thought are opinion on sim,to help start my instrument rating persue.
Thanks
I'm going flying today with my instructor woo-hoo 😄
Weather sucks here. Need to get back up soon!
awesome! any day you get to fly is a great day.
me too!!!
Great information! I have a question though. Would you recommend financing a plane if you can’t afford to pay it out and it’s a good deal or just let it go and hope for another one once you have the money?
It's a good question but one that is so hard to answer without all of the context. In general, my philosophy on the finances of flying comes down to living within your means (spending less than you make), and then investing the remainder into things that are important to you (could include anything here really... retirement, relationships, hobbies, etc.). If flying can fit into that without breaking rule #1 then for me it's been a high ROI type activity just because of how much I enjoy life when I'm able to fly. When you say you "can't afford to pay it out" I'm not totally sure what that means but it sounds like it might be a little close to the edge in terms of spending all of your remaining money on flying, which probably isn't super safe but it's really a personal decision. I waited to own until I knew that I could afford it plus some buffer so that I wasn't spending all of my residual cash on flying (because then I would probably resent it). Lots to this topic and kind of hard to answer in the confines of the comments section here, but it's a good question to be asking. Next week I have a video coming out about the finances of flying so I hope that's helpful!
Thanks! That helps me out a lot. Although it’s sad to say, I’ll probably have to wait awhile to pursue aviation. I’ll be waiting for that video. Excited to see it!
Newbie question here: what are the good resources to look for used airplanes ? Seems like google search send you sometimes on a tangeant
Really great video Charlie, great content with good advice---Still lookin for a decent 172!!! Thanks again from Deep Down in Cajun Country--KOPL
Thanks Randall - glad you found it useful! 172 would be a great bird. There's a reason they're the most highly produced GA aircraft ever!
Biggie!- is it in current annual??? If not, it may have sat abandoned for many years and need significant maintenance just to get it airworthy. Routine maintenance is one thing, but finding unresolved ADs, or finding corrosion can make it a parts plane. That is where a thorough pre-buy inspection with a mechanic knowledgeable in the type is a smart investment.
Noob here just to let you know. When you get serious about a plane how could you see how much time it spent in a hangar vs outside. Would it be in the log book? Isn't spending time outside the cause for corrosion? (as well as being near salt coasts) If you are looking at planes for years would you consider putting the tail number in the spreadsheet for future reference?
Charlie, is your spreadsheet available for download on the website?
Hi Chuck - as of this writing I don't have it for download anywhere but I tried to explain it in this video so that you knew what columns I recommended and what data I would be looking for. Hope that helps!
My plane's engine was 1300 hours SMOH (OK) but 28 years (on condition) when it decided to grind its innards in to sparkly metal filings. The rebuilt engine cost more than I paid for the plane in the first place, before even installing it. :-(
The plane checks most of the "value" boxes otherwise, which is why I decided to spend the money: reasonable airframe time, complete logs, nice upgrades, modern avionics, good interior, decent paint. Plus a botched landing many years ago, long since repaired.
I would rather have a lower time airframe, complete logs, no accidents, decent panel, but would not mind having an engine that is due or past due for overhaul. I would build that into the total price of the airplane.
Hello from louisville, KY.
Hi, Nick! Thanks so much for watching.
I prefer high time engines. High TBO brings the price down. Corrosion is the deal breaker. Corrosion is what kills an aircraft engine. A newly overhauled engine is statistically more likely to fail than a clean (not corroded) high time engine. Thorough inspection and maintenance will keep a high time engine and airframe safe for many low cost hours of operation. I drive an old car too. A well maintained, old car that I will drive for at least a decade before I grudgingly replace it with another old car. You see where I’m going with this. Great video, as usual. Thanks for posting.
P.S. The most important thing is a pre purchase by an expert on the specific type of aircraft. Older and higher time aircraft will require a more thorough and expensive pre purchase inspection. Aircraft that have spent significant time in high humidity, coastal (salty) regions are usually not worth bothering with. Finally, it’s going to be stupid expensive and absolutely unjustifiable. It’s also going to be super fun.
As you build this list, would you consider dates? For example, in the last months I’ve seen prices of GA planes skyrocket. Or would you consider that a bubble that will later blow and bring back down prices?
that's a really good point. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add dates on there. With a large enough sample size you might be able to spot some trends. And I agree, things have really gone up lately. Not sure if they're actually selling for that much or if asking prices are just inflated, but it does seem that a lot of other things have gotten inflated in the pandemic, too (RV's, boats, etc.).
@@AirplaneAcademy interesting, and ironic, that luxury items have gone up in price during the pandemic. I was in the market for a training plane, wanting to go all the way to CPL, but everything have been inflated. To the point that it won't make financial sense right now because it would be almost the same as just renting. So I am holding back and see what the market will do, then decide if to get one or not.
Do you live in Idaho? I noticed your Idaho Aviation Association shirt.
Any good listings websites you recommend?
Thanks
I like trade-a-plane because of the layout and it's easy to navigate. Controller, barnstormer, wing swap are some others but there are many.
It is my opinion that in a price bubble for EVERYTHING, especially larger purchases like houses and planes.
what (approx) would a cherokee 140 cost to get repainted? Found a "bargain" but the paint is a 1/10.
How about a chute for the bird?
Big one on Cessna 172s, were all ADs 5aken care of? The price of some of them can easily cost more then the plane!
How much did you pay for your 182, and when did you purchase it?
Hi Jonathan - I have another video coming out on that in the near future.
While airframe time is important, a well cared for plane can have many 1000s of hours (easily 10,000+) on the airframe as long as the engine, prop, etc. are well maintained.
Some Air frames have Life limited components (spars, wings, etc.) keep this in mind. A prebuy by a model specific knowlagable A&P is a must. Remember, the purchase price is just the opening anty. I would budget 15-25% of the purchase price to take care of any deferred maintenance.
Obviously prices and brands/features will vary, but what would it take to turn a VFR plane with original avionics/panel into a basic IFR plane?
Gosh, totally depends on how much you have to add to make it IFR certified and what you add when you do (steam gauge, glass?). Such a range. Could be a little or a lot. Would need make some assumptions about what an airplane is already equipped with and determine out how much you need to add to it.
Missing logs is not as big an issue as many people make it out to be depending on a variety of factors. First, it depends on how old an airplane is and what timeframe the logs are missing from. An older airplane with missing logs from the early years is not a real issue as the plane has likely had numerous annual inspections complied with since then and any real issues would have been discovered by an IA. As to possible damage and repair history missing in those missing logs, the 337s in OKC should have the major repairs documented. Buy the CD! If they are missing, a good pre-buy should discover undocumented repairs and/or mods. Now, missing logs from recent years would concern me a little more as there has been less time for a sharp eyed IA to discover issues but again, a good pre-buy will really help there as well. Basically if a plane has been flying and has been inspected and maintained, missing old books is a very minor to non concern. Otherwise, I think your approach is very sound. Good video.
Include high wing or low wing on the sheet.
You're in Idaho? I'm doing my discovery flight next week in Caldwell.
I'm based in Texas but have been to Idaho a few times in the 182 and absolutely love it. Trying to go there every other summer if I can. Enjoy the discovery flight!! You live in an AMAZING state for aviation!
Deferred maintenance is the #1 killer imho. Owners are often too cheap to pay for the fix.
A free AOPA VREF is your friend for giving you an approximate idea of what you should pay.
Active annual?
What are your thoughts on estate sales - ie: planes that have sat for many years without activity?
Good point worth raising. The engine would probably be the worst impacted in that situation. Engines might have low time but that time could be spread out over too many years. For example, an engine with 200 hours might only be 10-15% to TBO on paper, but if those 200 hours came over 30 years, it's probably actually way closer to TBO than that (if not already there) based on its condition. TBO's have guidance from the manufacturer but it's also a bit subjective and comes down to the unique engine and its health. Plenty of stories of people taking well-maintained engines safely far past TBO.
Hey Charlie, any chance you'd be willing to share your spreadsheet with me? I'm not actually looking at buying a plane, but I wanted to use your data to create a regression problem to see how much each of these factors ACTUALLY matters to the cost of the plane. I'm obviously very willing to share results with you!
In Canada, in the air, planes are passed on the right !! I just saw a plane pass yours on the left. Is that not a rule in the USA. I do plan to fly into the states in the future, so I would like to know. More things to research !!
Lost logs shouldn't be a deal breaker IF there are sufficient logs AFTER the lost log period. Example: '76 C182 missing logs from 79-83, but detailed logs after. All other things the same, this should not be a deal breaker. Thoughts?
May I respectfully suggest a factor in ownership that can be a dealbreaker?
Insurance. Some aircraft are prohibitively expensive depending on your experience level. Adding a student pilot to a PA 28 is relatively inexpensive. Adding them to a less forgiving plane can be thousands per year. This sadly narrows your options unless you are able to afford the premium.
Thanks for the addition. You're right, depending on the airplane it can be really expensive. The 182 has been really reasonable on the insurance front but also partly depends on the hull value. Insuring $100k is different than insuring $500k. But mine has always been less than my car insurance which has been nice.
Yes, the insurance is often less than car insurance.
If you attempt to learn in a taildragger such as a Maule, it is more often imposing. A student I taught in a Maule said his premium was shocking.
Depends on many factors of course....deductible, etc. New types of aircraft are often difficult to insure I’m told. The tried and true Pipers and Cessnas are usually quite reasonable.
Thanks for your excellent contribution to aviation.
Yeap , always something with Aviation,,,I see What looks like a good deal and I start melting my self
Get the 337s every major repair or alteration must be on a 337 and sent to Oklahoma city kept under that N number.
1500 hours on a 60 year old airplane is not a good sign. In fact, it may be just as bad as 15,000. Planes need to fly. Sure, if the engine, hoses, tires, and all kinds of things have just been replaced, then it might be a gem, but run away from a 20+ year old engine that's only been run up for an hour or two every year since.
Given that mentality,....all those "barn find" 1970 Chevelle LS6's would still be sitting in barns....
@@Imustfly except he right….LS6’s don’t hurtle through the air at 100mph
corrosion??
6. Very low hours on the engine or air frame or both.
All my airplanes vibrated so much, a touch screen was out of the question.