I was skeptical about this case. (NCASE M2)
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2025
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NCASE's reason for the increased price between angled and round is due to the higher quantity and demand for the round version. Ultimately, bringing the pricing down from the factory. With that clarified, I don’t think it really matters to the buyer. Regardless of the business reasons, Its still $40 more for some angled cuts. No additional accessories or anything included. I stand behind my initial point that a nearly 25% increase is a lot for what you are getting.
Mr Devyn do you still have the velka 5
I was going to say: logistics determines pricing.
At that point they should just offer the cheaper option and noone would critiquize them for such a case at 165
I love the videos but some of the cases are just unrelatable because they're sooo expensive. I love how this on is a little more down to earth. I still love the bespoke vibe of your builds though. You make it like an art form.
Well the high prices just come with the territory considering he reviews mini itx cases… itx is usually always going to be more expensive compared to other options
The price isn't that bad considering how long you're potentially using it. Still have my M1 (10 yrs now?) and DAN A4 (5 yrs). What's a 100 bucks more over that time frame of something you're looking/interacting with daily. Still super happy with both.
@@sh3riff354 nice bro, i have a dan a3 right now. my next build maybe iun a year or 2 will be one of these
@@sh3riff354 Good points and nice to hear a story like yours using a case for 10 years! Through different builds I assume as well. Out of all the parts for a build, the case is one that can last a very long time.
The best part of this video is learning about the new M2 168 , been fantasising about such a compact case with air cooler clean up to 160. Thanks bro.
Definitely looking forward to that case here
Thank you for your thoughtful review of the M2!🤩 We really appreciate your honest feedback and the effort you’ve put into sharing your thoughts in this high quality video.
About the pricing of the M2, it mainly comes down to popularity. The M2 Round has been more popular, so we were able to produce it in larger batches and lower the cost. With the Angle variant, we expected it to be the favorite based on the M1 Classic’s history, but it turned out the Round design was what most people preferred.
We’re always learning and improving, and we’ll continue updating with new designs and changes for M2 and future projects. Thanks again for supporting NCASE!🥰
I was quite disappointed by the customer service of NCase. I was following their build 'Level 6' guide for the M2 and, at the time of ordering, it said no additional accessories were needed. I was part way in building the PC and I couldn't mount the ATX PSU... by chance, I'd screenshotted the build guide page when I ordered and contacted NCase, with the screenshot, to see if there was anything they could do (even if it was just cover the postage). Anyway they ignored me, never replied to the emails. Not a great experience for a first time customer. Case is great - but releasing it before sorting the website out properly was an oversight.
Would be an instant buy for me if the case was .5 to 1mm wider, rear GPU slot cover, and fan bracket could clear the D12L cooler.
@@joshuawatson3824 Thank you for your feedback, and we’re truly sorry to hear about your experience. Building a PC is a highly customized process that often requires prior knowledge, and our customer service team is not specifically trained to provide detailed build advice yet. For this reason, we believe that directing customers to our Discord community and the wider SFF community, where many experienced builders are available to offer guidance and suggestions, is currently the most effective solution. That said, we’re sorry if this approach made you feel ignored-it was never our intention.
To improve, we’re actively working on creating more beginner-friendly resources, including UA-cam videos that cover the basics, as well as updates to our website landing pages to make them more customer-friendly and informative.
We appreciate your honest input, and we’re glad to hear you liked the case itself. Feedback like this helps us improve, and we’re committed to doing better moving forward.
Hey ncase, are there any updates on the availability of the 168 model? I am waiting for its release to order one :)
Would you consider selling the fronts as seperates, so the look can be swapped out by the users?
Ncase m2 It's my favourite case to build in, if only they'd stop being out of stock of the eGPU support. I'd love to see them produce taller feet too.
Tried to get a riser from them the other day. Told by Ncase to try again in the middle of December. 🙄
I've ordered the 15mm feet with mine. I recall you have to mod the feet though, for the M2.
Just got my M2 Grater a few days ago but haven't built in it as I'm waiting until after CES for the new GPU releases. However I 100% agree that the biggest issue I have with the Grater thus far is no front I/O even though I paid $60 more for the case over the round version. As for a good air cooler the Peerless Assassin Mini is a perfect fit as well.
Yeah that is why i switched to angled to still has unique front panel but have aio
Where is the power button on the M2 Grater?
@@bearsdiditthe back
@@bearsdidit it's on the back panel - got my grater a week or so ago. I turn on my PC with smart plug/BIOS power setting so wasn't a big deal to me, but if it was on my desk I would have opted for a version with power button on the front panel to save reaching behind
@@huntcollings9624 Thanks for the heads up! I finally found a few pictures and it definitely looks like an after thought.
This company sucks when it comes to shipping because they flat out lie about cases being in stock. You're not buying cases, you're pre-ordering a case that has yet to be made and if they miss that make window you're not seeing that case you "bought" for 2+ months (if you're lucky). It's a deceptive market practice.
And they've been having WAY too many quality control issues lately (shipping packages with missing parts, stripped screws, etc).
Edited because my comments to them seemed to have disappeared.
Not to mention pcie riser cables only reaching gen3 speeds
Thank you for your feedback-we’re sorry to hear you feel that way. The recent holiday peak has meant more orders going out, and while this has led to a few more visible complaints online, these cases still represent less than 5% of our total order count. We work hard to resolve any order problems within a week, and we’re committed to making things right when issues arise.
We understand it’s easy to notice the negative, but there are also many positive experiences we’re proud of. We really appreciate your input-it helps us continue improving and delivering the best service possible.
@@afuzzyriff Thanks for pointing that out! Riser cables are indeed tricky to keep fully updated and can sometimes pose risks to performance, which is why the M2 was designed to be riser cable-free for maximum performance and reliability.
That said, we understand many people still prefer using riser cables to connect their GPUs. We’re actively working on improving the riser cable experience for those who choose to use them, while continuing to focus on our riser cable-free design philosophy to ensure the best performance possible.
We appreciate the feedback-it helps us refine and evolve!
@@ncase_official
Sorry but no, I don't think there is any excuse for:
1) pretending to restock items when really you're just using the restock notifier to gauge interest,
2) claiming an item is in stock when really you're just taking orders for an upcoming manufacturing run/batch,
3) setting a ship date a month in advance, presumably to give yourself a month to actually manufacture the items you claimed were in stock on your website,
4) spend that month NOT actually manufacturing the cases (because of manufacturer rule changes) but also not telling the people who bought them that they're not being manufactured (so they can't even make other arranges during black friday sales),
5) Saying nothing until nearly TWO WEEKS AFTER the cases were suppose to be shipped, only to announce that the cases were in fact never made during that month and the new ship date is now a month away
My feedback: Actually make the cases before listing them on your website as "in stock" and actually use the restocking time to restock them, i.e. **actually be honest with your customers.**
@@Athasin Thanks for sharing your thoughts-it’s clear you care deeply about the SFF community, and we appreciate that.
Hearing this kind of criticism is tough because we genuinely care about our customers and the work we do. We’re a small team, and while we’ve worked hard to improve, we understand there’s still more to be done.
In the SFF space, preorder systems and batch manufacturing are quite common, but we know that delays and unclear communication can be frustrating. We’ve made changes to be more effective, like introducing clearer updates via both discords and emails and better compensation plans, but progress takes time.
We’re committed to earning your trust and meeting the expectations of the community. Your feedback helps us grow, and we’ll keep working to do better.
unless you are crazy about tiny size go for LianLi Dan A3 in wood. way cheaper and fits way more details without too much compromises.
It’s a big step down on quality from what is shown here.
Still hesitating between Jonsbo Z20 and this one for a matx build.
The Z20 looks sturdier with much better airflow, even if the M2 is smaller, the "skeleton" look fragile and not that good for transport.
I'm actually glad you did this review using the Noctua D12L. I put together a build with a Ryzen 9 7900XTX and a Radeon 7900XTX, and used the D12 for cooling, cramming it into a CoolerMaster NR200P. And while I've been happy with the case, I was looking at the M2 wondering if I could get away with using the D12. There was some much-needed info in this review, so thank you!
I'm not sure if you read these, or if my suggestion would matter, but I'd be very curious to see a truly portable / daily use build that takes into account weight (I'd appreciate if you could show the weight of your completed builds at the end of every video as well!) I know you did the 880$ 1080p Lunchbox build, it was awesome and I'd like to see more things like that, especially how you mentioned in that video that the weight was 10 pounds. I wonder how much weight to performance you could get if you did something like that with a 4070 or 4080.
I feel like I don't see a lot of builds meant to be used for every day travel/commuting, which is what I would like to personally use for my work. Having a 4070-4080 machine I can do my presentations and work on, then for the off hours/breaks do a bit of 1440p gaming. I find myself having an extra hour here or there at my job, not enough time to be worth going home + coming back, so I just stay at the office (perfect time for a that 1440p gaming.)
A lot of MicroATX cases seem to be around the 12-14 pounds (just for the case!) so having someone with your skills and talent take a stab at getting good "weight to performance" portable machines would be very cool.
Thanks for your videos, they are interesting and well crafted. Yet some how informative and thoughtful, I appreciate your insight and commentary.
Most SFF builds tend to be around 10-15 kilograms. Too much weight for a shelf not mounted to a wall stud.
the best aircooler for this calse is the pearless assain mini 135. you can use the side fan bracket with it because its 10mm shorter than the d12l but offeres the same performance
Yea ive seen a few builds use that one. Will have to pick one up and try it out
Honestly feels like a bit of a let down. NCase M1 was the best case during the early SFF craze but now that the community has matured this feels like it's trying to do too much while simultaneously having weird compromises like the giant hole in the back, no real cable management, overpriced front covers, weird layouts, etc.
Thanks for the feedback! The M2 Grater is designed for a modern, clean look, which is why it doesn’t have front IO ports-the power button is on the rear panel. We know it’s a bit of a risk, but we like the challenge of pushing minimalist design.
For those who want more customization, we offer DIY options, which is part of the charm of the SFF community. Feedback like this helps us refine and evolve, so thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@@ncase_official the M2 grater would have been an instant buy if it had front IO for me. I have been looking for a case similar to this.
@@ncase_official Just for balance - I ordered an M2 grater (on the way) BECAUSE it has no front IO. I don't want port holes ruining the vibe. I wouldn't complain at a front/side/top power button, but I can survive with it on the back... Looking forward to building with it
The OG M1 was a master of reference layout in small form factor. The M2, as you've said, is a master of none type of case and I agree, it tries to do too much at once. A big factor for me not purchasing are the holes and lack of "finish". The OG we know went all the way to V6.1, so maybe with time the M2 will reach the same level of polish.
But honestly, the way W360 is handling this project left a sour taste for me, I will wait for Necere's next project.
@@ncase_official Perhaps you can look into using capacitance to turn a small area on the bottom left corner of the grater front panel into a switch. Then all the user would have to due is touch that portion of the front panel to switch the case on. Accidental touch risk could be mitigated by adding a timer to the sequence, thus requiring a 2-3 second touch to activate the switch assembly. This would preserve the minimalist design while adding an invisible premium feature.
There is a power button on the back of M2 Grater. M2 angle is expensive because not many people buying it. It is a special order for people who want the classic look of the original Ncase m1 I think.
I'm looking and looking and I don't see any mention with the M2 Grater that it doesn't come with front panel IO. They need to be WAY more transparent.
I'm still rocking my normal M1
Same. Love it.
Same.. but I want a bigger GPU :D
I somehow got my 3080ti to fit
Explanation:
I bought one of those rajintek gpu coolers for my Zotac 3080 ti that I attached slim fans to, since it made my gpu heatsink less long (but thicker). I was previously watercooling my gpu anyway, deassembling my gpu wasn't too big of a deal.
This all worked though since my gpu's board wasn't too tall though (also my gpu is one that wasn't overclocked too much by zotac)
I also have a 3800 ti deshrouded with two 120 mm fans. I love it
Are vented side panels rigid (like NR200P) or fragile? Will they bent if you grab your PC at bottom and side panel while transporting?
the fan on the top right fits if you put the PSU against the shared wall with the mobo
8:20 Could you throw standoffs to run the cables behind the PSU?
I was thinking the same thing. If it only attaches to the front panel, then that should work.
Because the main mounting holes for the psu blacket are on the motherboard tray not the front panel. Unless you use some sort of offset standoffs. Also because he is using MATX, he couldn't side mount the psu. He could flip the layout to classic config where gpu on the bottom and psu on top
I'd love to see a video on the M2 - AC168
There are very good 3D Files for a side fan bracket. I have one and printed it with PETG. No issues at all
man because everyone tends to put liquid cpu cooling or those monstrous air things on the market when there are low profile coolers that give very good performance.
Question: if the grater has no front I/O how do you turn on the computer?
11:02 is just a survey asking if it's something people want. It says it right above restocking
Excellent video sir! Would love to see a traditional build, with a triple slot card (or bigger), and an AIO on top
Is 62G of ram possible/ compatible in this exact build?
I was really considering this case but i went with the X-Proto L and i couldnt be happier, got 10% for black friday too
Could you try a level 9 build for the M2?
Have you tried unflipping it and see the temps for the GPU/CPU ?
I have an Asus Tuf Gaming 7900XTX - height 158.2 mm. M2 Specs say the maximum GPU height for the classic and configurations is 148 mm. If I lose the side fan bracket, I'm still out of luck?
I'd love to see the D15 build!
They have a bigger M2 that will take the D15 in the works, I believe. Hope it comes to fruition.
So, I wanted to make it work with my 4080 Super at the same time with my AIO that was a screen on t. Why isnt it possible to do so?
Would be very curious to see the idea for the Noctua d15, M2 - AC168 build, I have wasted a few days looking for nice small cases that can fit the noctua nh-d15 lol. So far the deepcool ch160 seems like a potential option.
There is just one problem in my country, there is NO mATX board with PCIe 5.0 available.
And there is no ITX board with PCIe 5.0 that don't support more then 2 Sata drives, which I need.
Why do you need PCIe 5.0 if you're going to be using so many SATA drives? If you're building a media PC, then buy a NAS with the SATA drives in it, hook it to your router and connect the router to your ITX machine through ethernet.
@@CokefishR That PCIe 5.0 I meant is for the GPU.
I have 3x Sata and 3x M.2 now. And I use all that storage 😕
the front io usb are mirrored. that's like a crime in the pc world
Yup, it seems W360 prioritizes form (rather his idea of form) over function and ignores sensible design. Any sort of UX testing/polling would have squashed this awkward design choice. This case feels like someone's shop project rather than a thoughtfully designed product for a consumer. I hope Necere comes back and makes a case or takes the reigns on future revisions of the M2.
What cable extensions are you using? They look great, I'd like to get some too
the meshroom s v2 is a bit more versatile as it allows for a full ATX motherboards and PSU's while having a lower price and smaller volume
0:58 Why didnt I get mesh with my Grater's front panel?🧐
My biggest issue with ncase M2 is W360. He is a scummy guy who did some dirty shit with Formd T1 (dispute with 3FC), had issues with SSUPD, uses NCASE brand now, even tho the designer of the original Ncase M1 has nothing to do with this case. There is certainaly a pattern and I don't want to support this.
Thanks for your feedback! To clarify, the M2 is a new product under the NCASE brand, created by a dedicated team-not just one individual. While the original designer of the NCASE M1 isn’t involved, we deeply respect the M1’s legacy and are committed to upholding the high standards it established.
Regarding the FormD T1, we’ve shared our perspective on our blog to provide clarity on the situation. While there were past disputes, we respect the work of our former partner and believe that innovation across the SFF space ultimately benefits the entire community.
The M2 reflects the collective effort of a team passionate about pushing boundaries and delivering high-quality products. Thank you for your input-it helps us grow and improve, and we hope to earn your trust in the future.
@ this BS response might work on some newbies, but as someone who:
1) Saw the fall of SFF Gurus
2) Saw all the shit show surrounding M1 Evo release with false claims, incorrect specs, etc. (we all know why you decided to name this new case M2, right?🙂)
3) Has a screenshot of 2 contradicting messages from W360 about 3FC’s involvement in Formd T1 (messages are like a year apart)
4) Has seen your fmdworks website that redirected people to NCase after opening any product (where there were no mentions of Formd)
… I’m not buying this.
@@humanity_3 Thanks for sharing your thoughts-it’s clear you’ve been part of the SFF scene for a while. The M2 represents a new chapter with a new team, while still honoring the legacy of the M1.
We know there’s a lot of history, but as a new team, our focus is on what we’re building now rather than revisiting the past. If you choose not to support us, we respect that, but we’ll let our work speak for itself moving forward.
@@ncase_officialThese answers feel AI generated.
Legit was just about to say what screwdriver is that and then the ad r0olle din, great timing. Agree about the pricing issues but happy that the case quality is even across the range
Nice video! There is no GPU anti-sag support?
what 90 degree 12VHPWR adapter did you use?
I really like that you were more critical in this vid
Devyn, I would like to see the inverted build whit peerless assassin mini. Maybe you will get a better temperature and the cooler will not push the painel. Great video!
This case looks cool but I can not stand the idea of paying for compatibility parts that should come free with the case considering the price point.
what app you use for showing temps and fps sir?
What's the temperature overlay you're using in this video?
ua-cam.com/video/rRF6lW45c4c/v-deo.html&ab_channel=DevynJohnston
as an m2 user, thank you for making another video on the m2
The motherboard tray is prone to stripped screw threads. Repeated orientation changes will eventually wear down the threads. Very poor longevity!
This was a problem for the M1. I thought this was supposed to be fixed in the successor case by using replaceable thread inserts.
@@ytQrash As you build the case, the panels will eventually flex around a bit, and that will cause the threads on the mobo tray to wear down. Ncase should've designed the panels to slot in so it prevents the panels from flexing during the assembling process. I'm currently awaiting a resolution from Ncase support, but I'm not very confident in building in this case...
Sorry to hear about this! Issues like this are super rare- so far we’ve had fewer than 5 reported cases so far.
Have you reached out to Customer Service? They’ll be happy to help and get this sorted for you. Thanks for sharing your feedback-it helps us keep improving!
@@ncase_official Might be a good idea to revise the motherboard tray since that's the main culprit. I reached out with your CS, and they opted for a full refund after I return the flatpack.
@@olivrrrr Thank you for your feedback! I'll forward to the product team for future updates.We typically process RMA cases on a weekly basis. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions or need further assistance-we’re here to help!
I have a good open frame for you to check out next: The Modable SYS8
i used on mine a 7900x, as i got a really good deal for it (+ two video games that i wanted), with same noctua cooler. the rest of it, 32gb teamgroup 6000hz, a 7900xtx Merc (that barely managed to get in there) on a B650I AORUS Ultra, and a 750w thermaltake psu. i am considering to install 2 more fans for extra cooling, but other than that, i'm really happy with it. i was considering to use a arctic 280 aio, but the pump pipes are a bit too stiff to be bent away from the side pannel, so i opted for the noctua, but you can fit a 280 in there.
I am doing a 9800X3D, X870-I STRIX, NCASE M2 ROUND Black Build too!
I need the comparison between the two modelo of ncase m2
Such a sexy case might have to retire my NR200P V2 soon!
Guess im abit stupid for build it.. i got m2 flat, build on flip and using aio.. but since i planning to attach more fan for intake, i add it on the top cover using anti-vibration (to not damage it) while waiting the bracket fan comes xD
Can you try a build with xproto mini and xproto slim
Those are really good cases
pleeeeeease do the comparison to the ac168 with the new noctua NH-D15
Nice video...not the case for me. I'm sticking with the FormD T1. Thanks
Why use the NH D12-L instead of a thermal right PA 120 mini? The 120 mini is arguably just as good, significantly cheaper, and lower height. You'd be able to actually mount the side fan for exhaust which would help too. It seems like an all-round better option even with the 9800x3d, at least according to Machines & more
Does anybody know what black monitor he uses in this video?
i literally just bought this case and finished it this morning after work no way im seeing this now
CPU cooler fan rear intake. Mount one 120mm fan to exhaust from side (mobo bracket), and one 140mm fan to to exhaust out bottom (had to use zip ties to secure rather than screws). CPU temps don't exceed 70 on cinebench with max load. GPU stays cool around 70 under maxxed 4k tsushima settings.
There is a power button on the back of M2 Grater.
I was talking specifically about front IO. Im aware of the power button on the back, but I should have clarified that point.
As you found out, this case just isn’t wide enough for current and next generation components. The GPU’s are simply too wide now and will only be bigger next gen. The next version of this case in the wider format will be great. Formd T1 same issue, case is too small now for 40 series cards
There are M2 builds on UA-cam with the 480.
@@martinw245 yes, but he means (i think) the angled 12vhpwr cable. it shouldn't be necessary but at this small of a case there is compromises
Fantastic review, Devyn. I'm glad you mentioned some of the pain points about this case which a lot of other reviewers have failed to mention. There are certainly some awkward decisions about the case and also about the customer experience which are tough to accept at its price point. Lack of polish and direction along with an equally messy website where products and accessories are listed way before they even enter production or have a release date make for a confusing experience. I think the OG M1, at least the V6.1 was very accessible for people entering the SFF community. When I bought it, it had everything I needed. Slot covers, IO delete, dust filters, and drive brackets/mount points.
This case fails to continue off of it, but instead regresses to create a product/experience that only enthusiasts will be willing to tolerate.
id screw the mother board standoffs into the mb then line it up with the case
He was "sceptical" about few sheets of ALUMINUM that cost 200$
I WOULD BE TO...
I don't know why anyone would go for this case when there's better options like the NR200, fractal terra or S300 just to name a few
More compatibility with a wider range of parts. MATX support is pretty crazy for such a small case.
NR200 is a lot bigger. The Fractal Terra is maybe too small. I don't know the S300.
@@ytQrash NR200 does not take MATX, though.
I went from an NR200P to the M2. I'm happier with the M2. To each their own I guess 🤷
Hold on , i know my english not that good but you said you have ac168 version? Oh come on , i love to see it! Please ❤❤❤❤
No sorry, you misunderstood. He said that "ncase has come out" as in they announced it.
sleek build
Ncase quality control and logistics have been not cool for a long time now.
Love my Ncase M2 ❤
I bought the same motherboard a few days ago but it's the Rev. 1.2 instead of the Rev. 1.3 that appears in this video.
I haven't noticed any coil whine but I was wondering what's the difference between the Rev. 1.2 and Rev. 1.3, and whether it's worth returning it and buying the Rev. 1.3 from another seller. I wish Gigabyte would specify exactly what changed between one version and the other, I haven't found much information regarding these two revisions.
Literally posted just as I was about to order!
that airflow is under par,
Do the other pc case build!
why would they mount thr gpu on top upside down it looks funny
apparently its the most optimal position for airflow, especielly for FE cards. I still don't know exactly why but my guess is there no clearance issues when its trying to get air from the bottom
This cooling setup looks illegal
Unfortunately I just sold my M2 grater as I didn’t see any benefits from it over the goat NR200p
I have done a very similar build but with bottom exhaust and rear intake for fresher air for the air cooler. To do this, I added the taller feet. I have not added any intake slim fans like you have done, but I have no issues with temp on my 7900 XTX. It's been a solid PC for 3 months. The one thing NCASE should improve is the rear fan grill. The spacing of the slits is too large for standard fan screws. I had to use some silicone washers to install a 92mm intake fan.
That was a class video. So detailed and just flowing so smoothly, at no point I was bored.
I was actually thinking of getting that grater version but that power button at the back is stopping me.
I had the m1 evo, utter disappointment and poor quality. Thankfully sold it and didnt lose much money. Nothing compares to the ncase m1 v6.1. Ended getting a dan c4 sfx, closest thing to the original ncase.
Ncase M1 was mindbending at the time for part compatibility in the ITX market the M2 is the accumulation of years of iterations to be the most compatible case for parts easy to build in its easily one of the best cases on the market imo
I am curious if a dual GPU workstation is possible in that case....
That's one way to cook a CPU
Please make a Blender build video, thanks.
bro new case 12L pccoler mesh k101
I wanna see the grater versionnnn
Pcie riser cable 5.0 for 2025 ?
Not a fan personally. Looks kind of big and sketchy. That's just my opinion though
Thank you for the healthy criticism regarding price policiy at the beginning!
I'll stick to the dan a3.
Meh, that's ugly
Never liked the M1 or the M2, it's an unspecial lazy design in my opinion and it does nothing to push the envelope of sff in says other cases have. Even the Fractal Era 2 has it beat because at least they came up with a decent design.
Subjective.
It’s a massive itx case. I’d rather have a 3FC T1 or super meshy overall I don’t like ncase as a company. But that’s just me.
This case is a sff matx case imo, for itx, there are much more interesting options
Lian li
calling that motherbord try intimidating, have you never build lego? jjeeez get over it
These cases are all style no substance. I'll buy a Jonsbo that has more function over form.
That screwdriver you are shilling sucks hard
i'm sorry, but it always gets me cringe laughing when i hear the words "small" followed by a "12+ liter case" (whole 15 liters here !!!)
what is "conventional" size for a medium case then?