The Riddler's Forgotten S&M Biker Sidekicks | Query & Echo Retrospective
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Batman is known for having an extensive Rogues Gallery, with many memorable villains. This includes the Riddler, and for a time the Riddler had his own set of unique henches, Query and Echo, or Quiz and Query or Query and Probe? Just who were these women? How did they come to work for the Riddler? Why did they fade from the limelight in DC Comics? How did they come back during DC Rebirth? Find out all that and more, here on Casually Comics!
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I like the idea of his sidekicks being huggy with him BECAUSE he doesn't get grabby.
Physically comfortable friends.
I'm not trying to put salaciousness where it doesn't already appear but... Technically they said ”less grabby" not non-grabby.
@@CieJe.Alexander Well "grabbiness" is poorly defined. It's a fuzzy term. I'm midwestern, so I have a tendency to toss an arm over a friend's shoulder etc. To some coasties, that can seem "grabby"
It's all about the "normal" social distance in your region and your interpretation of the other person's physical contact.
@@iamsemjaza I agree, it is mostly a matter of perspective. It was just an observation. I'm nitpicky.
@@CieJe.Alexander Also, maybe they are midwesterning in their language. "That might be bad idea" == "You'll die if you do that." "He's not as grabby" == "He is zero grabby and you are 100% grabby"
what a awesome bromance.
My personal headcanon is that everyone thinks The Riddler makes Echo and Query wear those sexy outfits because he’s horny, but actually they are the freaks who use to commit crimes in full BDSM gear, they are the ones who demand that their costumes be skimpy.
Poor Edward just wanted them to wear some nice tailor suits, the fishnet tights were a begrudging compromise on his part.
You're going to far with the poor Edward stuff. He has no reason to care as long as it's themed to him.
You're just giving to fanficy cliches there.
@D. San I like it, why you gotta be so negative
@@saltyabyss3981 I don't view it as negative.
Think about it mechanically, what does it add beyond a throwaway joke. How does it match his character. When has he ever cared.
It's fanfic writing for humour. That's just what it seems like to me. But it falls into cliches or tropes (which aren't inherently bad). In this cause it's shoehorning a character into it to write a comedy scenario that doesn't really have a place.
The only issue I have is "why would he care". The rest is essentially already canon, or a presumption that is likely.
Also no point in overly stereotyping query and quiz either. They wear varied outfits. The most alot show are legs.
To be fair, they said it is headcanon, which can be considered fanfic as well. Though it can also be an explanation that hasn't been confirmed to justify something. Part of it works fine for that role.
@@DSan-kl2yc "when has he ever cared"?
Are you seriously saying the riddler has never cared about anything ever?
@@ProjektTaku I didn't say that since we were talking about clothes
Riddler's at his best when he's in it for Thrills/Fun, so having henches with similar motivation works well.
Has he always been homicidal?
@@matthewschwartz6607 I don't know tbh
@@matthewschwartz6607 No. In the Superfriends comic book. He gave riddles to the Superfriends to capture another villain by the name of Skyrocket, the problem he then faced was that he was compelled to do a crime that also fit the riddle he gave..
Exactly. The riddler has fun with it. He absolutely loves it.
@@DSan-kl2yc - There have been times when Eddie was homicidal. I like that, I DID think that they ruined him when Tom King had Eddie kill Kite-Man's SON, though! Eddie killing a kid never sat right with me.
Batman: “And where’s your play toys, Quiz and Echo, Riddler?
Riddler: “MY WHA- Batman! They’re MARRIED! First, I’m offended you think that of me. Second, that speaks *volumes* of how you see ladies in the work place. Do you speak to Wonder Woman like this?”
RESPECT WOMEN Riddler is something I didn't know I needed in my life 😂
Married to each other? Or to their respective husbands.
@@mattphillips3537either way, eddie was the best man at the wedding/weddings
1. Quiz & Query are the superior names.
2. Having them just be a duo of thrillseekers that like working with Riddler is so much better and makes them so much more interesting. Because then they're doing crimes with him out of pure friendship and the fun of it.
3. Riddler needs not more sleaze. Let him stay a regular attention-seeker/glory-seeeker. Don't muddy his motivations with sexual/romantic release! That's so....gross!
4. I liked your posit of him falling for the shapeless, faceless idea of Oracle. It could have been interesting.
So, I've never heard of Query and Echo, but I kinda wish they were in more things now lol. Riddler seems like he needs... Friends, and the early versions could be that way, not the later ones, that's just standard sleeve.
Programmer here. In some programming languages, "echo" is a term for printing onto the screen or other given output device and "query" is the concept of prompting input from a user. Fits quite appropriately with the aesthetic of the version of Nygma who was a programmer.
I was familiar with these two, but this video really gave me a great deal of information. My two cents, I think Query & Echo legitimately being the Riddler's friend and going along with his schemes for funzies is a great dynamic. You have these two very attractive women and Eddie doesn't leer or get creepy. Eddie's having fun with his riddles, the pair have fun, and it becomes something of a fun feedback loop. It adds a level of depth to the Riddler that really hasn't been delved into. Eddie's got an obsessive-compulsive need to be the smartest guy in the room, and this has alienated Eddie from people and isolated him. Echo and Query play up to his ego and he in turn becomes dependent on their support, but I ramble.
"Eddie doesn't leer or get creep" Ironically he is the character you would assume would be the the most creepy.
This, and I also like the idea that their humorous ribbing of him helps him to stay focused! I'm actually a little bummed they never showed up on Gotham, I think they would have fit in well on that show...
@@HandofOmega Gotham had a real opportunity to try. After two certain character defining murders, finding a pair of friends in Echo and Query would've been great for his character. Aside from Eddie's association with Oswald on that show, Riddler felt a little too isolated, even more so than his comic counterpart.
@@blackrazer22 nah, not in that way atleast, riddler's a good guy, he wouldn't be a weirdo like that, plus his 170 IQ makes him too smart to leer.
@@ProjektTakuunless you're talking certain eras, you really can't classify riddler as a good guy.
Why did the Riddler go after Batgirl instead of Batman? That’s easy. At one of those weekly bat-villain bar-hops, Eddie, always too much of a talker, got to describing his plan to the Joker. To which, the Joker asked the Riddler a riddle: “What’s green and white and red all over? You, riddled with bullets. Hands. Off. The. Bat!”
War of Jokes and Riddles but it's a fight over who gets to date Batman
@@nathanl8622 It would be an entire DC Civil War. Hush would get involved but say it totally isn't like that, Talia would join the fight with Ra's wingmanning, the Amazons would attack again, Bruce's aunt would be making everything weird for everyone, Superman would be embarrassed but compelled to get involved, Catwoman would be attacking everyone, it would be a mess. The real reason Batman has to stay single is because it's the only thing stopping all-out war between all the people that want his batcock.
@@PosthumanHeresy you’re right and you should say it.
@@PosthumanHeresy then julie madison ends it all with "I married him."
@@PosthumanHeresy Then everyone realizes you also have to get the Bat Fam’s approval. You gotta get the kids to like you and don’t forget everyone has to deal with protective father figure, Alfred.
Riddler: "Oh. You've heard that one."
Amanda Waller: "No. I have Google, like the rest of the world."
[from Batman: Assault on Arkham]
Waller is always brutal. XD
I’ve wanted to see Query and Echo in live action for years since I first learned about them. I love villain sidekicks and henchman with names and personalities. Like Joker’s boys, Rocco and Henshaw, from BTAS.
Maybe they could appear in Reeves Batman sequel or maybe in the DCEU. Maybe in a Suicide Squad sequel, how The Suicide Squad handle using underrated/obscure villains. I think they could work there.
Finally! I thought I was the only one who liked henchmen. My personal favorites are all of penguins hench ladies: jay, lark, raven. Also black mask's assistant Mr chen was a savage.
@@Emersonkid21 6:50 Did they dress like this? Black Canary looks like she could be a Penguin accomplice. (I don't know, I read Marvel™)
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs Not really, but they Always have some green with question marks in wardrobe somewhere so Huntress isn't wrong. But Canary is way off so yeah she would definitely be a penguin henchmen/woman although his ladies usually rock fishnets.
Probably easy enough to include in the next Battinson film-there’s already a Riddler (albeit the tech genius kind) and an illicit club involved.
I like the original vesrion of Query & Echo, with them looking more like a subversion of "Dumb Hechmen" trope and them at times being more compitent than thier boss, plus them stcking with Riddler makes them both interesting and cute. Rebirth version notwithstanding.
I think if you can explore this dynamic even further, with Query & Echo being more like a good friends who just likes to hang out with Riddler despite him being a looser and even giving him some advices when hi treis to be intimidating.
Henchmen being better than their boss is something of its own trope among Batman villains. Scarface/Rhino and Joker/Harley come most immediately to mind.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace Query & Echo were created in 89 while Harley was made in 92, so i concider them and Rihno of being original in that regard.
The riddler as a loser is an awful way of portraying it.
And henches being more competent makes no sense. It's taking something from them too.
@@DSan-kl2yc nah
@@DSan-kl2yc not really.
The riddler, despite his genius, is kinda just a dorky nerd when you boil him down.
I think it makes sense, as they want to help him out and boost his confidence so are his "henchmen". I don't see how it's "taking something from them"? its just not making them a cliche and falling into trope's.
I like the early Query & Echo versions. Strong, sexy, but also looking like good friends to the Riddler. I think that one scene where they are kinda draped over and around Eddie while he is hunched over over a map is the best version of this. It is so casual. They are sexy, but it's not meant to be sexual. I think a good tie in would be that there are two groups with the twins subbing in when the originals aren't available. Like, maybe they all know each other and Quiz & Query are just hired muscle/friends of the original that the originals got to help Eddie while they were contracted elsewhere. Then, because they're 1) Girls, 2) Henchs, and 3) Sexy, no one realized they were different and kept using the same code names.
They remind me a bit of Dee Dee from Batman Beyond. But Dee Dee seemed a lot more badass, the focus on Query and Echo seems more on their sexiness.
@@gilgamesh310 Yeah, I kinda wish we could see Eddie, Query and Echo just hang. Get to know everyone. I think sexiness is part of their characters, but it could be in taken in that, "Hey, this is me and what I like and it's not for anyone else," sense of self that the Provocative Male Gaze like thing they tend to have. Oh man, I haven't thought about Dee Dee in years. I Really need to rewatch Batman Beyond.
@@alexandriatempest I really like the female henchwoman thing, where the man is the more intelligent one and the henchwomen are the badass ones. It kind of applied to Mercy in Superman as well, but she didn't do that much fighting. Do you know of many others?
We need a Gotham sirens rebirth with these henchman, mercy, and punchline.
If DC won't make it happen, then to the fanfic-cave!
(also, is there a way to add in Two Face's hench gals from the movie, Sugar and Spice, as well as Harley's twin grand daughters from Batman Beyond?)
@@HandofOmega I don't know anything about the former, but the latter could be done by either time travel or multiverse rifts.
Mercy? As in Mercy Graves Lex Luthor's chauffer and bodyguard in a comic could Gotham City Sirens?
Honestly, I kinda like the idea that the twins and Query and Echo as two separate groups, similar to how if the Riddler isn't around for X reasons, I like the idea that he has a set-up of backup hench girls when Query and Echo aren't available, but yeah those two are his main girls, the people he has the deepest relationship with, albeit not a sexual or romantic one.
Two hench ladies that like dressing and acting sexy, working for a boss they enjoy and having fun like two complete adrenaline junkies?
Yeah I would like to see more of that. It sounds fun XD.
They remind me a bit if Dee Dee from Batman Beyond. But Dee Dee seems a lot more badass and could easily beat Terry’s Batman a lot. Query and Echo seem a lot weaker by comparison. I prefer hench ladies to be badass as well as sexy.
A couple of friends who influence Riddler to comit crimes that actually benefit the three of them and keep him from undermining himself too much would both make him a more dangerous adversary and create an interesting dynamic where the sidekick of a supervillain is useful beyond violence or just being a replica of their boss.
The fact that the Riddler had henches has been living rent free in my head since watching this vid. Got to agree I prefer the more equal and platonic relationship they had at first.
I'm opposed to riddler "getting it on" so to say, but something about him strikes me as the kind of guy who would say all that stuff is just a distraction
Quiz and Query are just some of those obscure elements that would certainly benefit from modern representation in the franchise and a go at live action.
Apropos of little, my favorite Riddler story was actually a prose short story in an anthology meant to capitalize on the success of the Batman 89 movie (tho it was clearly set in the continuity of the comics instead), wherein the Riddler decides to finally give up his stupid gimmick since telling the police about his crimes beforehand just gets him caught all the time. He still pulls off an elaborate crime...only to have Batman show up before he does! Batman explains how the Riddlers' recent actions were all clues, as usual, which so shocks the Riddler that, instead of putting up a fight, he just gives up, takes off his mask, and ASKS Batman to please take him to Arkham, because he truly wasn't intentionally leaving clues...But now he's finally realizing that maybe he really does need professional help.
Still gets me, every time. Wish I could find that anthology and see who wrote that story, tho...
That comic is from Batman Adventures titled “The oldest one in the book” . There is a collection of almost all of the Riddler stories in Batman Adventures called Batman Adventures: Riddle Me This. It’s a great read especially if you like that comic.
I like the idea that their private life is mostly fine. Just to underline exactly how broken harley and joker are.
Yeah, if I were a DC writer I'd retcon out Incel Eddie and have a Riddler story that had some time that showed that they're just... regular Gothamites. Gotham is so twisted that being a henchman is a normal career (just based on the numbers it has to be), and they're just like... a bisexual adrenaline junkie swinger henchman couple who work with and are buds with the biggest nerd in Gotham because they just respect and like him and how he thinks, the pair working well with him and him working well with them simply because of mutual respect and vastly different skillsets. Maybe they consider screwing with Batman an endless source of adrenaline junkie fun and so they're always eager to be a part of Eddie's latest plot. Just teaming up with a supervillain they find to be a cool friend because it's an all access pass to the thrills of trolling Batman. The addition of two highly physical henchwomen allows Eddie to create all new sorts of riddles, so they're more than pulling their weight.
@@PosthumanHeresy I just like to think their regular friends and just want to have some fun.
This actually reminds me of a character similar to the Joker's daughter - the Riddler's daughter. She has a very brief history. Very brief.
Enigma or the Duela Dent version? Duela's worn a LOT of costumes.
@@HBHaga Enigma
Definitely never heard of Query or Echo, but DEFINITELY heard of Riddler’s Daughter… Whoo chile… her ultimate fate… 😖
What happened to Riddler's daughter?
What happened to his daughter
Oh riiiiiiight. *repressed memory unlocked of Tony Daniels' final issues on Batman before the New 52 which undid Detective Riddler completely and had-- Joker Riddler*
Oh yeah Enigma 😂
I am once again restarting my Bring Back Enigma 2022 petition
I do wish henchmen got more love. I remember Min and Max from BTAS, Sugar and Spice from the Shoemaker films, and all the various goons from the Adam West era (remember Leo and Felix, Catwoman's henchmen? I loved those outfits the few times they showed up in comics). Henchmen usually give me the levity I want out of comics, especially in the modern era where the main heroes and villains all seem to be all serious all the time.
I always wanted a Year One type non canon storyline where all the henchwomen(and Catman) first meet just to see how they bounce off each other. Maybe have Poison Ivy get introduced to them by Harley based on misunderstanding her relationship w the Floronic Man.
Never heard of them, but I do like the idea of female henches just in it for the fun. They seem like they would be perfect for the Harley Quinn animated series, if they haven't already shown up in the background somewhere.
Dee Dee from Batman is another good examples. But sadly those kind seem to be pretty rare.
Awesome video! I did not know about these two but I think they have alot of potential. I love the, for lack of a better word, friendship they seem to have with the Riddler.
It works really well with the Riddler, as he usually tends to be out the outskirts of most villain groups. Sure, they plot and scheme, but he is (usually) less homicidal than the others and his compulsions, to say nothing of his ego, strain any sort of bond, working or otherwise.
But these two just freaking roll with it.
It also avoids the "stupid trap" that is necessary to make henchmen work for some of the rogues gallery, particularly the Joker. A raving idiot, who only through the grace of plot armor and need for drama, has elaborate and unnecessarily malicious plans go off, and who randomly kills his henchfolk for literal shits and giggles, is going to have a "charisma" to keep them close?
Yeah, no. Not buying it. Not for more than five minutes and not for more than the most pathetic and useless dregs who aren't going to be good for much.
With Query and Echo, its three like minded folks on a far more equal footing. Riddler is doing grandiose, flashy, risky schemes to make money and they like those kind of games. The stakes and rewards are great. Sure, you might shoot a few people here and there, but that isn't the GOAL.
Unlike say fear/joker toxin bombing twenty orphanages just so your boss can get an erection.
THAT is a fun dynamic and works well.
Side side note: Ick. That 2018 Incel Ass Riddler. I TOTALLY could have all the ladies, I'm like so cool and rich and blah blah blech.
Kill that version with FIRE.
I wouldn't mind seeing Query and Echo in the Reeves-Verse Batman films. I feel like that version of The Riddler would have hance services working for him.
I mean Twitter has proven that his riddler would have fangirls
I like the nuance of the platonic portrayal and as others have said the Riddler works better when he is in it for the fun and so to have henchmen who are just in it for the fun compliments well.
1 - I did know about Query and Echo for reasons of: I accidentaly found a fanart of them and decided to google them to learn if they were real or fan made and was happily surprised they were real (less that they weren't a cannon power couple but figures).
2- I love the original idea of them and Riddler being kindred spirits and having an surprisingly healthy work dynamic and equal fotting. The girls being touchy/flirty people but not really having any relationship with Riddler, not necessarialy because he is ace (as an aroace I would have no problem in havin Ed somewhere in the a-spec, if nothing less ace Riddler is waay better than incel Riddler and there are a ton of queer reading on him), but just because it's not how it is for them. It's a fun dinamic to have in the background and makes a fascinating contrast between them and most female comic henches (specially Harley and Joker).
Also Riddler reaaaly needs friends. If nothing more he needs someone to tell him to chill sometime.
3 - Incel Riddler is the worst. Burn him. Burn him, please.
4 - I love the Oracle implement though. Ed becaming obcessed with this shapeless person he isn't even sure exists (untill Barbara appears and beats the shit out of him in a whellchair like the queen she is). He knows nothing about Oracle except they are the real genius who solves his riddles and appears to be isolated (just like him) and he wants to know more, he wants it so much that he deludes himself into thinking it's love and then it's a total creep about it (it can even be read as him having no idea what romantic love or atraction is but wanting so much to have it that he deludes himself into beliving that his curiosity is it and them creating a whole obcession based mostly in assumptions and projecting, but this is just me giving things an ace coding so ignore it). It's way more interesting and entertaining.
Jumping off the fourth point, long-term it could evolve into Riddler having more of a non-romantic "senpai notice me" mindset on Oracle with logical ties to his origins. The riddles are rooted in his father's abuse of him, but the need for greatness is rooted in the side-effect that the abuse meant he was always seeking his father's approval. He no longer has anyone he's seeking approval from in particular. Instead, he's paradoxical: he believes himself superior to all and wants them all to acknowledge it. He needs the approval of his lessers. He won't even acknowledge Batman as an equal, and takes being beaten personally. But with Oracle, it could go far differently. Batman beats Riddler with as much brawn as brains. Oracle is in a wheelchair. With that fact given to him, he could actually end up accepting her as his better. He could fixate on that and have that break down his "she cheated" excuses until he ends up at the point of "Oracle is my better and I need her to tell me I've surpassed her". He could be a real headache for her, seeing as he probably would go back and forth on stopping and doing crimes as long as the point was to make her admit he's awesome.
@@PosthumanHeresy this idea is amazing and could make a good short series. With Riddler's plans becaming more and more insane as he loses and loses and becames at each time more desperated and close to a mental breakdown because Oracle winning in a fair game (different of Batman) again and again and his inability to impress her takes from him the only thing he truly had going: his belief he is smarter than everyone else. And if he isn't what he is? What he still has?
On the other hand we have weirdly the opposite efect for Babs. Of course she doesn't want the crimes to keep going and has soo much things to do. But Oracle was suposed to be only a suporter, the mysterious voice behind the Batfamily. To have an actual challenge made for her, an actual enemy, this is what she had as Batgirl. In a sense dealing with Riddler makes Barbara realize that while she can never be what she was prior Joker she still can be more than a mysterious voice as Orcacle, that she can be a full hero just as much as a suport. And it isn't only Barbara who is shown that. So is the audience opening doors to the possibility of an Oracle solo series.
The villan-hero conection of a short saga writes itself as while Riddler is questioning his value, Barbara is rediscovering hers.
What I mean to say is your idea is great!
Edit: english isn't my first language so I made some silly gramatical mistakes and had to fix them
This entire thread just blew my fucking mind
@@PosthumanHeresy lol that first part make's him sound like he's got a superboy (conner kent) and homelander paradoxical superiority complex but desire's love due to a terrible childhood.
@@PosthumanHeresy I like the idea of him constantly trying to one up her and keeps thinking she's cheating or got some unfair advantage, until he see's her in a wheelchair and accepts she's smarter.
14:10 it's a good panel great body language the artist did great.
I think the most obvious solution to the quiz, echo, query question, is that quiz and query are in fact twin sisters, and echo is query’s friend. Love interest?
Thus, we have a world where quiz and query get along, but maybe aren’t as chatty as query and echo. This could lead to some interesting behind the scene stories where we see the three of them interact together.
"Love interest?" I guess the "query" name could have a double meaning which would be on brand...
If Quiz and Query truly are twins, then I really want them to have twin cousins somewhere named...
Pete, and Repete! 🥁 ☺️
I am surprised the TV show Gotham never used Query or Echo. There over the top personalities and outlandish outfits would of been perfect on that show, especially with Gotham’s version of the Riddler. What a missed opportunity, hopefully we see them in live action some day.
Actually, a video about the Cluemaster would be interesting. Can it be explained why any editor felt the need for a low-effort orange-swapped Riddler copy?
I enjoy seeing these 2 gals, whatever their names may be! Especially when the fun-lovin' S&M biker gal versions who hang with Eddie 'cause its a good time - my other fav DC background bad girls are the Body Doubles!
if I had a penny for every time DC created a female duo who dressed similarly to each other, are based on one of batman's prominent villains, work as their sidekicks and seemed more prominent then they actually were, I would've two pennies, which is not much, but it's strange that it happened twice
Are you talking about Dee and Dee from Batman Beyond?
@@joshualuigi220 yes
Technically you would have three
12:26
Damn! I don't know about anyone else, but I'd the ufck out of that story! That's one hell of a pitch. I'm sold.
I always thought Query and Echo suffered from being a bit of a test run for Harley.
That being said, I think the nebulous nature of their relationship could make them interesting foils for Quinn and Isley if the show decides to use them
The mention of them being in costume while not working with Riddler just makes me think of Tobias from Arrested Development prepping in case the Blue Man Group calls.
Holy sniffles, Batman! I'm not alone with the headphones things! I just need to look up and mine wiggle loose
They could not make him love Btaman so he is in love with Batgirl. Im guessing that it's the same reason that he can't love Batman that is the reason that he can't be just good friends with his hencewomen. It must sell to large gruops of hormon driven young men/ boys that see every hero and every inportant villan in the stories as a self insurt.
Sorry about the spelling...
Didn`t know about these two but find them kinda interesting and would like to see more of them. And yes, Quiz and Query are the superior names. ;)
I think Eddie`s "rant" about what kind of woman are attracted to a guy who has money but is really a socially disconnected outsider would be a nice framework for two henchladies who appreciate him really for his wits and intelligence.
I can see them really care for him and him caring for them, making him oppose Batman sometimes out of fear that "The World`s Greatest Detective" could be a rival for their affection.
And wouldn`t it be interesting the two ladies being angry towards Batman because they know that Bats makes their Eddie feel insecure?
Bonus points if these two became criminal because of their older brother, who works for another villain of Bats and goes by Bob the Goon... ;)
Would love to see Query and Echo duke in out with Harley Quinn. With her being the only other hancewoman working for an Gotham supervillain. Or maybe they'd be good friends with eachother.
I mean not really
There’s also
punchline
Flatline
Dollhouse
(I’m sure there are others I just don’t know them.)
Between these two, Prank, and Harley Quinn, it really feels like the 90s had a thing for henchwomen.
I'm fascinated by the concept of henchmen for costumed supervillains in general. How? Why? The Riddler gals seem to have a good deal of potential for exploring that whole dynamic.
I knew these two based on appearance and name (the primary appearance, not the ponytail twins one, that's new to me) but I never knew much about them. They fell into the "female hench's who dress in sexy offshoot of their boss's gimmick" (or "molls" as that is apparently called) territory like Harley Quinn, The Ice Maidens from TNBA for Mr. Freeze, Sugar and Spice for Two face from Batman Forever, and especially Jay, Lark and Raven for the DCAU penguin. In fact Jay, Lark and Raven could be an interesting topic to cover, since they did eventually make it into the DCU proper.
I'd been compiling a list of as many Batman villains as possible over the last week and these two popped up like yesterday, my first immediate thought was 'wonder if Casually Comics has covered them'.
Barbara Gordon was a congresswoman, not a senator.
Love your rework of the Batgirl/Riddler story.
- Query
// Real Name: Deidre "Deidley" Vance \\
- Echo
// Real Name: Nina "Ninnie" Damfino \\
Yeah, that rewrite of Ridder/Oracle dynamic is fire. Love it.
Didn't they basically DO that with the Calculator?
@@HandofOmega Sorta-maybe? Calculator took on Oracles role for villains. It feels a bit different to me than what was described in the video. I think the Riddler would target Oracle as a 'worthy opponent' rather than someone to mirror emulate. But then I really liked Barbara as Oracle and thought she needed *more* villains to try (and fail) to play chessmaster against her when she was in that role.
Oh yeah. Riddler trying to woo or become nemeses with Oracle would be entertaining.
I remember playing DC Universe Online and thinking these two were made up. Glad they’re not though, interesting stuff.
in the whole intro, I love how the Berserk title comes into light, lets me know we're in for treat!
I kinda of wonder if Query and Echo inspired Sugar and Spice in the Batman 90s movies.
So glad to see this video. I thought I was the only one that remembered them! You should do one on Lark the Penguins female sidekick.
Is Batgirl still deaged? I haven't been to a comic shop in a while, but I recently stopped by one to look through a few things (had no idea there was a new Crisis happening!), and looking through Nightwing, it seems they've brought back the idea that they were a couple...which isn't feasible with teen Batgirl, surely? I'm confused...
I picked up that Batman annual as a kid so these two made a big impression on me. I was frequently wondering "where are Query and Echo? " when seeing later appearances of the Riddler. Whenever they weren't on screen I would ask "where are Query and Echo?"
Okay, the way you are reading these Riddler monologues is really creepy. In my head he sounded way different. After I didn't get your problem with this interaction with Batgirl the story, but yeah that voice your using makes my flesh crawl, lol.
The first time I was made aware of Query and Echo was in DC Universe Online. I thought they were cool, wish they were used more.
I like the idea of Query and Echo being flirtatious with Riddler, but I don't think most American audiences have the sensibilities to view it as anything other than sexual.
EDIT: Also that Riddler loving Batman psychoanalysis sounds interesting, but way too awkward to read lol
I
Love
Kieron Dwyer
!!! His art is kinetic and gorgeous.
Every villian needs henchers, except maybe Doom.
Sadly this is a missed opportunity with all those Oracle connections you mentioned .
Oh, captions, lifesavers to the night owls sleeping near other people🥰🥰🥰🥰
You know, to me the word "cringe" has been so over used that it has lost all meaning; however, that thirsty for Batgirl Riddler... Cringe AF.
Also, I believe that they should take those girls away from Eddie, since he's, in my eyes, a worse loser than Condiment King, and deserves to have no love in the world. Seriously, F The Riddler.
Also, Uuuuu! Give Condiment King two female henchpeople; they could be Chilly and Pepper. See? It's already writing itself.
Are Sugar and Spice still available? Have they done anything since 1995 movie Batman Forever?
I absolutely love the idea of these two , I love how they seemed to be doing it more for fun than for the money , which works really well because the riddlers plans usually fall flat but that’s ok because their all just there for a fun time
That legends of the Dark Knight from 2021 did get a print version in due course. I liked Quiz because she was strongly characterised and it did go into deth as to why they were together, so it worked well.
I remember the 1995 annual. But none of the following stories, although some start to come back to me now. I think I remember so well because where I read it at the time, when I was on a walk through a park in an area I'd never explored before. Amazing what makes things stick in the mind.
One totally forgotten character in this vein is Prank, Trickster's obsessive sidekick - and she very much thinks he's the brains, so sidekick she certainly is - in the 'Trail of the Trickster' episode from the 1990''s Flash series. She predates Harley, Punchline, and any of Eddie's ladies.
“Riddle me this Batman.” “What is sometimes a lie and an alternative to pie?”
Cake. Specifically, in this case, cheese cake.
I know in the 90s, DC had an incentive program for creators to make new characters, because they wanted to expand their rosters of characters. I also know Chuck Dixon was very big on taking advantage of this incentive program to make new characters. Given that Dixon had a falling out with DC, I wouldn't be shocked to see that DC management "retconned" the pair from Gaiman's story to being the same characters so Querry and Echo didn't count as "original characters." I'm not shedding any tears for Dixon, but at the same time, it did seem like going into the 201X, DC management wasn't quite as thrilled with paying out bonuses for all the characters created in the 90s.
Also, my vote would be for Query and Echo to be a couple, and for Eddie to just be a good friend and respectful of their space.
@@JaredRascher I like that idea a lot. Plus I prefer the idea of Ace Eddie over Incel Eddie and the girls being his best friends (possibly his squishes), as well as any form of additional LGBTQ+ rep without queer-baiting, like making them romantically into each other. That increases their potential to be interesting IMHO. Because while I like the trope, there's way more villain-hench romantic couples out there so unless you're gonna invest in making them distinctive in any way (including some flavor of queer or perhaps just villainess and henchboy instead of villain and henchgirl/hench-twins), might as well try something a little different.
I didn't know of these 2 hench women I like that Riddler that wasn't "grabby" most hench women in comics are just sexual playthings for the villain.
Harley Quinn for example is oft Jokers lover and more often his punching bag
To be honest I think if Eddie tried to hit Query and Echo HE would end as the punch bag. But I do love the idea of them being rly chill and used as the complete oposite of Harley and Joker
I love your version of Oracle vs. The Riddler. He could kidnap her boots on the ground, maybe Cassandra Cain Batgirl? As for Quiz and Query I like the idea of them being Sapiophiles, but not to the Riddler's standards, like they are only smart enough to appreciate the Riddler but they just aren't at his level. Like they are a 5 in intelligence and the Riddler wants a 10. maybe make then bi sapiophiles, Other than that, they would be eye candy and extra muscle. If any backstory, college students that visit his crimes.
Can you IMAGINE incel Riddler from The Batman with these as his followers?
Yikes! is all I can say
I didn’t forget. They were hilarious.
Batman attracts weird babes.
His Rogues attract weirder babes.
Gotham...is a place that has concentrated women that normal men avoid.
An complete basket dudes are drawn towards, case an point.
I remember these girls from a comic I bought in anticipation of batman forever! It was a retelling of batman and riddler's first meeting and the I forgot about the girls until this video. Really weird when you see something that unlocks a forgotten memory but sometimes a nice nostalgic bump.
Wouldn't Riddler attracted to Oracle for her intelligence just turn him into a Savant clone considering that's exactly how the Birds of Prey relationship with Savant got started, his obsession with Oracle and her intelligence.
They need to bring back The Riddler, Query, & Echo.
Query adn Echo is in DC Universe online MMORPG when you have the mission to save The Riddler from Deathstroke.
Edward didn’t want Batman to think that Edward wasn’t bad a$$ so changed the truth from hold up to the leather club. That is how you win a no-prize
But but if he ignored the part where he was the one who was almost shot the "met while robbing a bank (sucefully for once)" would still be a bad a$$ moment? Rigth?
@@lemonace6695 He isn't stupid, although some if not all of his choices are, and eventually would have figured out he couldn't tell Batman they got the drop on him, both of them, at the same time.
@@jamesallard7223 good point. My early theory was that he new there was a possibility someone would mention Query and Eccho and he did it first to prevent Batman to knowing about the bank robbery because the last thing he would want when he needs to convimce the Bat he is reformed it's to remember him of that time he sucefully pulled a bank robbery. But Ed it's so ridiculous that know that you explained it, he trying to win a non-argument makes a lot of sense.
If nothing else, Q&E present the opportunity for a positive villain-henchmen relationship. No abuse, no insults, just people who like doing wacky crimes with their friends.
I keep wondering if some of these characters are so far off-character that they need a fix the way Prometheus was rebooted... that the version that was a joke and failing was an imposter and the real Prometheus returned to repair his villainous reputation.
I like the Detective Riddler era. I thought it was great. They could have fleshed it out more by having Quiz and Query work for him as Detectives too. There was so much potential with Edward just giving up on crime because he can't beat Batman that way.. but he CAN challenge Batman by being the better detective and better mind.
I mostly remember Query and Echo from that one mission in DCU Online. They didn’t talk or do anything, if I recall correctly.
Well, kind of in-character.
They're still there too. Trying to save Riddler from Deathstroke.
12:19 This is a great idea. Have you ever thought of becoming an editor for a comic company?
Gotta say the Oracle and Riddler comoc idea Sasha came up with sounds like a great story. Also really like the idea of Batman replacing Batgirl in the story, that would have been a really good story and would've pushed the envelope in a really interesting way.
I love these two! Also I’d love for you to make a zebra man video
Wait am I actually first?
@@pqcowboychanel Yes but it doesn’t matter
@@Adam_X78 what have I become.
@@pqcowboychanel It’s alright bro I think I speak for everyone nobody cares who’s first on a video
@@Adam_X78 Your right, people who comment that are so annoying, I don’t know what came into me when I commented that. I mean what is a race now? I apologize for wasting your time.
Yessss I miss them. I love Diedre and Nina.
I liked the old Batman TV show where the henchmen wore coordinating outfits for their villain.
I can only imagine someone saying, "Yes, you have what it takes, but I'm out of your size."😀😀😀😀
Also, Harley's gang.
I'm always interested in these sidekicks loved the batman family when duela dent did the daughters of batman's main villians or in the 60s batman tv show the riddler had a big list of female companions who loved eddie. Btw I always loved the rivalling between riddler and the lower rated cluemaster spoilers father
I really like your wig here. It’s one of the less colorful ones, but it’s a more natural look. It’s a nice contrasting change, but I definitely love the colorful ones too.
Quiz and Query are definitely the best names, and the S&M biker chicks is the best version so far.
I get them mixed up with the Body Doubles. You remember the Body Doubles? I had a copy of DCU Villains Secret Files from the year 2000 and they were all over that.
It might be interesting if there are multiple henchwomen but only ever two at a time and maybe some share names and some do not. If for example there are three different sets of henchwomen, they could each have different back stories that fit the tone of the stories they are in and give more insight into the Riddler as well.
I've never heard of them before (although, I did read that Legends of the Dark Knight issue), but they sound like they should definitely be used more. I like the idea of them having a strictly platonic relationship with Riddler, working for him simply because they like him. It could make for a fun little family unit.
I also agree that his thing for Babs would have made so much more sense if she'd been Oracle at that point, or even if he was aware that she'd been Oracle.
Sasha, your version of the Riddler Batgirl obsession was so much better than what was published. Why aren't you writing comics for DC?
Lol yes Batman/Catwoman was certainly a “something,” wasn’t it. Haha. Another cool deep dive! And I liked your re-write of why Riddler would be attracted to Batgirl/Oracle. At least yours makes sense haha.
Holy crap, Chuck Dixon linked to your video. Congratulations!
Have you kept up with Wayne Family Adventures?? There was a recent issue with Jason having a panic attack from Joker PTSD and my heart couldn’t handle the BatDad comfort that came with it
11:01 to 12:00 chills woman your narration has officially scared me to death. Seriously.
Impressive because I numb to horror cringe [oh, so I thought].
*I loved the beginning of DC Rebirth!* I loved the mysterious aspects, plots and tones. Knowing that Dr. Manhattan had altered the DC universe significantly and most readers were trying to figure out his intentions/motivations before Doomsday Clock.
There was a character in the Gotham show that was named Echo; but she was working with the Joker
Yeah they had her in a "she's totally not Harley" role lol. Just like Jerome was totally not the Joker lol