The funny part is Paul Dini definitely had a Zatanna fixation long before BTAS. I watched an episode of Jem he wrote where Jem and the Holograms dressed in Zatanna-inspired outfits.
Tbf I kinda hate that they pushing aside Zatanna to uplifting Constantine at early JLD. But God damn, I really love new 52 Zatanna after the first half of it and how her journey defeating Pralaya who is aspect of the God that putting all creation and the God to eternal sleep and saving the Multiverse
@@maizen1403 I prefer the Zatanna and Constantine stuff before New 52, the stuff in Hellblazer and especially the stuff in Books of Magic with Timothy Hunter was great. Not sure if we can say New 52 improved Zatanna, though I am really liking what Ram V has done with her. I can say New 52 ruined Constantine though, and his only good stuff since was the Si Spurrier Hellblazer arc that erases the entire new 52 and resets him.
@@chad8767 i agree new52 also broght in nick only for the drama...which is so annoying new 52 zatanna often acted out of character. but i like that they showed how powerful she is. I also like the way ram v fixes what 52 partwise did wrong.
It reminds me of the plot line they gave Miss Martian in the Young Justice season 2. They definitely showed the repercussions and why you shouldn’t mind wipe people. I think they handled it well there
More importantly.. after it was over they didn't go back to it to beat you over the head with "REMEMBER WHEN THIS HAPPENED AND M'GANN DID THIS BAD THING!" over and over and over. It comes up like what? in one episode of Season 3 in a relevant context where Conner feels M'gann's falling into her "for the Greater good" mindset again. really that's the best way to NOT have something completely stick to a define a character, don't freaking bring it back up over and over and over again.
@thewalrus45 it was plot critical for the invasion arc that she was scared of going too far with her psychic powers, which allowed the scarab controlled Martian to trick the group into believing he was on their side.
See's title: "Is is the mind wipes?" The video: "It's the mind wipes." Aahhhh yes, I loved how that was her thing for no reason. I also love that Zatanna has had different looks, even as recent as the New 52, but everybody tends to ignore them, and give her standard look, top hat or no top hat.
Back in the Silver Age, DC heroes resorted to mind-wipes almost casually, usually when a villain learned one of their secrets. They used hypnosis, magic or amnesium, a strange element that could suck out memories. In one JLA story (the one where they get exiled to space) the League resorts to revealing all their secret identities to fight the baddies. At the end of the story, Superman just says he will use his store of amnesium to make the whole world forget. It was a different time when superheroes would resort to all sorts of elaborate plots to trick Lois Lane.
Mindwipes are not so bad, I think. It's the editing one's personality when you stop being "pragmatic" and becomes a full blown a$$ hole with megalomaniacal tendencies.
This is her wife slapping moment. Not many people in comics are defined so much by a single act. Except Hank Pym. And everyone knows that was a miscommunication between the writer and the artist that the writer kept in and rewrote the story around.
Zatanna mindwiping Selena and altering her mind makes no sense at all. The mindwipe undermines Catwoman's character development and raises questions on why Zatanna hasn't mindwipe other villains like Lex Luthor or Joker as Catwoman traditionally is more of an anti-hero than a villain
Because if it wasn’t real character development, the writers have an excuse to regress them. Because character development is bad. Apparently. Why write a complex character when you can regress them and rehash old themes?
@@tomorrow4eva isn't that just long running American comic Companies like marvel and DC do things anyway? So many stories, not even half of them being canonical anymore. and the same characters from 1945 and maybe 17 new ones being used constantly?
@@patricklukcy13 Yes. I wish they would do more planned reboots - like: the world just reset, the next ten years we can develop the characters, and then we'll reset and tell it over again with different adventures and relationships, etc. Then you'd have a continuity and could let some things end, without all the brain twisting nonsense they do right now. Maybe run an second title for a popular character as a different continuity of there is a market. For example, Batman can be solo Batman all working alone and broody. Detective Comics could be Batman that's involved with the JL and has kids.
@@tomorrow4eva thats why I stick with Manga. It's loads easier to find good stories. I know they are different mediums, but still I like the opproach Manga has better.
@@patricklukcy13 I hear you. Manga definitely has some more solid stories. I just love some of the comic book characters too much to not keep tabs on them. Plus sometimes it's fun to watch people's faces while you tell them Donna Troy's backstory.
Personally I do think exploring Zatanna's morality about her magic and the things she can do is perfect. I always liked her being on the side of good, but somehow abusing her powers because let's be real, she's one of the most powerful characters in DC, but that personality of hers should be explored and more fleshed out, instead of being left sidelined.
Agreed I love Zatanna she's the 🐐 but they really should explore the character a lot more instead of flip flopping from one moment a Hero to the next issue a remorseless borderline Villain, they briefly touch on it then never delve into it again. Still one of my favorite characters but definitely a character who could be improved
It's kinda irritated me that the writer doesn't flesh out of why Zatanna mindwipe the villain. Zatanna recently lost both of her parents as you can see her visiting her mom gravestone. Plus she is still young and She just don't want her friends doesn't suffer the same. Limiting it just to one accident is better than make her like a maniac that keeping mindwiping villain
True, that would be a good excuse to explore her relationship with her father as well. Since they're both capable of manipulating memories and personalities it would be cool to see something with that.
I'm always left so disappointed by mid-wiping witches' storylines because it feels like the explorations of consequences are either half-assed or brushed aside. Maybe this thread is left unexplored because writers know how difficult it would be to truly redeem someone who's done something that awful if you show the consequences of their actions in detail. So the stories often feel like their missing a step between the character doing the awful thing and people forgiving them. It happened with Wanda in WandaVision and it happened with Miss Martian in Young Justice so I'm not surprised Zatanna got the same treatment.
After all, it is what education institutions do all the time. Mindwipe their students with their point of view repeatedly until the original truth is forgotten. Same difference, just non-magical. The trick is to pull off that 4.0 by providing the professor with the answers they want while still remembering which are factually incorrect. Fun times.
What do you mean by mindwipes here. I really don't think they're that bad if it's just their secret identity that they didn't give you. But mind control or altering some thing. That is bad. Anyway there's nothing to explore. Everyone knows it's bad. Read the squadron supreme book if you want to see heroes use it to an extreme. How long do you want characters to hold grudges over bad writing.
I definitely think it could be done well. Maybe if not framed in an ultra villainous light at first. Like a villain who is genuinely too dangerous to imprison/otherwise unable to deal with normally, where the only alternative is killing. In that situation a mind wipe could be done while not needing to break character too mu h for a morally good hero. Especially if the hero then works with the mind wiped to build a better life. We then could have a slippery slope where they maybe begin trying to deal with villains that way even when not strictly nessassary(like the doctor light thing) or when someone asks them for it(like the catwoman thing). Now that we have a legitimate argument for the good that this sort of mind wiping can do bring in a villain who has the same power that mindwipes people against thier will to get what they want. Have the hero themselves seeing this villain consider for themselves if what the two of them are doing is truly different and if it something they should stop doing altogether or undo. In short: the Zatana mindwipes don't work becuase they break character and don't give her any real agency. Give her agency and create a villain to explore the truly nasty aspects of mind wiping without breaking character.
I've never been a huge fan of the whole idea of 'everyone can be morally ambiguous and make bad decisions, except for Batman'. It always seems to put everyone else down, just so we can bask in the awe of how much of a deep angel Bruce is.
It should be mentioned that in (just about) every story about the JLA going bad, it's the Batman who stands against them. Hell, it even translates into the Mark Gruenwald Squadron Supreme miniseries, when Nighthawk formed an undercover team to oppose the SS Utopia project.
@@manart6506 Except there usually is a clear right answer, and the point of view you are meant to side with is usually Batman's side. That's the problem.
@@jacobwilliams1223 what? There is always a point of view. Not even history is clear black and white. And I didn’t really sided with Batman in this one.
Many writers tend to do that and it's honestly annoying. When Batman does a bad thing, the story tries super hard to make it seem justifiable and "a good thing, actually". I bet if he was the one mindwiping Doctor Light here, they would've excused themselves saying it was "necessary and for the greater good" just the same way they tried to justify him plotting against his own allies.
Batman: "Friends don’t mind wipe friends. I will not forgive that." Green Arrow: "You know, friends also don't spy on friends to figured out their secret identities." Hawkman: "Friends don't make hidden contingency plans behind their friends backs." Jim Gordon: "Also, they don't sneak out in the middle of conversations to show off their ninja skills!!!" Batman:".....Can't we all just forgive each other?! We're all friends here!"
Identity Crisis, in my mind, fully justifies every single time people didn't trust super heroes in the DC Universe. After what these seven did, Bruce was morally obligated to get ready if a rematch were ever to happen. Before Hawkman decided that the President of the US needed to be made more friendly to the JLA or something, for example.
Ah, Identity Crisis...the Crisis that just keeps on giving... Edit: Any depiction of the JLA that has them saying, "Hey, it's a slow day, let's go commit some crimes!" is a bad one. BTW, she erased Dr. Light's memory of the rape, but what about Sue's? Wouldn't it have been at least arguably a good thing to spare her that memory??
One of many big, gaping plotholes in Identity Crisis. Ralph and Sue Dibny both know about the rape, but don't know about the mindwipe. They could've blown the whole secret wide open if they'd ever tried to press charges against Dr. Light.
@@k9feline2 Right. Sure. The Best detective in the league (Ralph) did not know about the mindwipe. It's basically understood that he did in the subtext of the series.
Honestly, the whole series/arc is a mess. For me, personally, it felt like they prioritized “GOTCHA” moments with scandalous subplots over substance. [x]
@@arturogalletti1799 He reacts with surprise and disapproval when the others talk about the mindwipe. It's abundantly clear that he didn't know about it.
I get the batman mind wipe being problematic. Mind wiping a rapist, not so much. I wouldn't have a problem with him being thrown out an airlock. Still don't think the rape storyline was a very good one.
Is it just me or is the "mind-wipe" a stand in for rape and violation, or am I reading into it too much? Cause Zatanna's attitude and response towards being pressured into doing it (because of the power dynamic and her being new to the League) comes across as very...problematic in hindsight when looked at through that lense.
It was 2004. In the same years we saw Capt. Archer of Star Trek Enterprise torturing a prisoner and robbing vital supplies from a civilian ship. Media were all high on "we must do what must be done" (transferring prisoners where they could be tortured, waterboarding...).
In DnD 3.5 there was a spell that did basically the same thing as what Zatana did to Dr Light and Cat Woman. It was quite literally called mindrape, so no your not alone in thinking that.
My first introduction to Zatanna was in Batman: The Animated Series. I loved her character from the start but I must admit, I didn't know she was a major hero until years after. As far as her name's pronunciation I use my Kevin Conroy voice and what comes out is how I pronounce it.
Also I think we all forget that there was intense romantic tension between Batman & Zatanna previous to this so the betrayal has this added layer of Bat being like "I could have loved you." if you didn't alter people's mind when it suits you.
The addition of this when they had romantic tension, and they were even trying to put her up there with Selina and Talia as potential endgame made it so uncomfortable!
Ugh the fact that that Talia detail happened by accident because Grant Morrison forgot the original story he was homaging and didn't reread it bothers me to this day lol
Zat's one of those characters that nobody can get a solid grasp on, just look at the way she's been character changed over the decades. (In ways it reminds me of Felix Faust who started of a powerful sorcerer - had had his own JLA cover - but was turned into a joke and is now slowly making his way back). Zat has also ridden the power waves from low level to world beater, (Yes Spectre, you're not the only one.) and her life goals have never been consistent. I don't think that there is a way to give here a decent solid character at this point. Unless we go back to the multiverse and say that every limited series of comics run has been a Zat' from a different earth.
I think she's very easy to flesh out and develop into a cool character, though they need real writers to write her. It seems writers are afraid of her, except Dini.
"Zatanna's cool now, because she abuses her powers whenever she can!" I'm amazed that Zack Snyder didn't make this version of Zatanna a member of his Justice League movie.
Don’t be amazed. Zack Snyder doesn’t read comic books. It’s easy to see why he views the characters the way he does. He’s only read a handful for the sake of making the films. [x]
I feel like if they're going to revisit the issue of Zatanna mindwiping people, I think they can explain it by revealing she has altered her memory as well. It would serve as an allegory for people choosing to ignore the bad parts in their life as a way to cope with the decisions they've made. Also, I pronounce it Zah-Tah-Nah.
This has always been frustrating to me as a huge fan of the character, she has never been the star of her own story lines. She's always the guest star and support rather than the main character. The search for her father was put in focus of the characters she teamed up with, the death of her mother is framed as a league story, Identity crisis being the same way. When she finally was the center of JLD it doesn't focus on her specifically and instead focuses on them as a team. She gets a lot of character development in both runs of the JLD but her mindwipes are not mentioned and she is often overshadowed by the plot presented to John Constantine or Wonder Woman. This is even more compounded by the fact that in almost every single appearance up until Identity Crisis she'd been nothing but a good, moral hero. Identity Crisis stained her character but the problem was that she had at least a smaller fan base than most characters at the time so it didn't matter and went largely unanswered or unexplored. Majority of fans belonged to batman and the other leaguers, leaving few to defend her character and more fans willing to pin blame solely on her. Additionally some people didn't or don't agree that she was in the wrong, the whole point was to explore the moral implications (even if poorly). If it had been handled a little better the story arc might have cast Zatanna in the role of an antihero. We already have dozens of very popular antiheroes who straight up murder characters all the time, even full fledged villains like Loki or Poison Ivy who are both known for mind control have larger and more forgiving fanbases. But for several reasons the role of antihero didn't stick to Zatanna. Maybe because she was too obscure, had few fans, her stance is never made official, maybe because mind alteration is considered worse than death in the eyes of writers and fans, maybe because she couldn't be forgiven for erasing the mind of DC's most beloved dark knight. Whatever the case may be she was left to be completely tarnished by the deed and bear the full brunt of the decision and have it expanded upon despite its negative reception. She has had to fight back for her reputation both on panel and off panel and still the millstone lingers. I fully agree that N52 was actually good to her as a character, not perfect, but better and at the very least didn't condemn her, and JLD rebirth has only proved to further flesh her out and treat her as a hero, not an amoral sorceress who tampers with the minds of her friends and for that at least I am grateful.
I honestly really like the relationship she’s got going on with Constantine in the Justice League Dark. I think they play well off of one another and it gives them room to explore more Magical themed adventures. But then again I’m definitely a Constantine fan girl.
I don't see the real, pre-New 52 Zatanna dating Constantine or Batman. It would work extremely well to make her a bi who prefers women. This helps flesh her out in a logical way, and it works better than making Harley Quinn and Catwoman bi. They should prefer men because of their original roles in the mythology. The current, woke stress on HQ and Poison Ivy is stupid. HQ should change partners constantly. She is an edgy cult character, not a woke, mainstream hero and role model.
@@chihiromononoke9381 I think she should be bi or get a guy that is nice and caring and have a great sense of humor for example just like Peter Parker spider man he nice and he nothing like Bruce Wayne his parents and uncle died to but he have to move on about it so zatanna ether needs to be bi or get a guy that cares for her
So, first off, I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing with you about this story. That said, this was my one of my first real exposures to Zatanna as a character, in those DC BLUE RIBBON DIGEST reprints, and despite all it's faults, it made me fall in love with the character. Note: this was a couple decades before IDENTITY CRISIS, and I was a child, lol.
I forgot about all the mind wipes! Makes me glad that on Young Justice, when they started playing around with mind wiping they left Zatanna out of it. I think they definitely learned from Z's comic experiences when writing that plot for Miss Martian - creating stakes high enough to warrant that sort of tactic potentially necessary, other characters showing immediate concern over that use of force, and all the fall out when she eventually shattered Kaldur's mind
*Lillie wears an evil Zatanna outfit but with fishnet, boots, tophat and smirks* All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest story alive to lunacy. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything
It is amazing how certain stories can so utterly define a character, seemingly indefinitely. Looking at Hank Pym, for instance. Even though Zatanna seems to have move on from Identity Crisis, I can't help be worry that another writer will come up, and revisit the mind wipes.
It's one of those things that shows how important execution is in stories. The idea of having the heroes do something questionable in the name of whats right is what stories about super people should be about but execution wise it falls flat. It also shows one of the limitations of connected continuity comics where a character can struggle to have a singular voice especially on such a heavy topic. I think you could probably link a lot of these elements into a series where Zatanna comes to terms with why she's so flagrant with her powers, potentially something to do with her relationship with her father?
I love identity crisis, was the first comic book to make me cry. It’s not a perfect story but I’ll never forget it’s emotional impact. As for the mindwipes morally I’m against them but at the same time I enjoyed seeing DC heroes have complex relationships around what they do as heroes. It was a refreshing change from the superfriends vibes.
@@spibbymcgoo4877 I agree, I’m not suggesting it becomes a weekly theme of books. It’s always difficult when fiction deals with some issues but overall I think the book had an interesting moral complexity.
This is one of those specials stories that make superhero stories greats… the fact people can’t agree or take sides is the reflection in reality of the clash in this fiction.
Personally I don’t feel what she did to Doctor Light was wrong and mind wiping the Society was necessary but mind wiping Batman was wrong. Mind wiping Selena felt out of character.
I TRULY love watching your videos. They are such a great stroll on memory lane. I remember reading every single issue you reference here back when DC was awesome and before it got totally ruined by the new 52 to cater movie goers.
I actually like when it started from scratch with New52, a clean slate a new story to enjoy, there was too much baggage… it was to me like a new post Crisis on infinity Earth time with a single timeline. Sad it didn’t last.
I don't think this is so much a case of Zatanna being mischaracterised moreso than it is one of her being a proxy for editorial decisions. The whole issue of the mindwipes is attributed to her in my opinion because it provides a convenient scapegoat that dodges questioning the rest of the League, really. You can't ask morally direct questions of the big names so you divert the responsibility to Zatanna and say 'it wasn't *us*, it was *her*' as a way of avoiding any future criticism and that has genuinely hurt her long term because that responsibiity hasn't been resituated back with the League, where it belongs. It's breathtaking to think that the editorial staff at DC (and I'd single out Johns as a main culprit) felt that wholesale mindwiping and outright betrayals of trust were *okay* to do and use as a plot element, along with turning Doctor Light into this desperate rapist. Think about what that says about the writing decisions; Light at this point can't have a crisis of confidence or even breaks, he has to *rape* someone as a character moment. That's not good writing, that's deliberately going out to shock the audience. And I bring that up because that directly informs the same proxy decision using Zatanna as the tool to serve the writer's ends. Both Doctor Light *and* Zatanna were damaged irreparably by this and the blame (yes, blame) HAS to land squarely at the feet of the League as characters and they should be answerable to it.
Not only that but at the end Dr. Light didn't have ANYTHING to do with the actual murder mystery, it was literally there for shock value and to provide cheap drama and a pointless fight later on.
I see events like that like comic becoming more mature, and while one is about violence (death) &!the other is about morality. Both about consequences. Not ignoring that kind of things is something good for stories IMO.
Remember that both Bruce and Clark (and many others) have used "mind-wipe", in comics and television, many times before, with Kryptonian Tech, Drugs, Bat-sprays, and various other methods. I appreciate the questions and issues raised, (finally) and challenged in the Zatanna stories. (Not to mention the, I think, even bigger issues with forcing changes in villains personalities. I now look back on the Doc Savage books I read in my (70's) youth, and his criminal changing ("re-rehabilitating") surgeries, and cringe. (Like I do with many other "old" stories.)) As always thank you so very much for the video. And I say both.
kind of makes me want a Momento-esk story where Batman wakes up in a bunch of different ways without his memories and has to piece together what is going on to discover a evil Zatanna has been constantly wiping the memory of everyone she comes across.
The damage wrought by "Identity Crisis" and the utterly terrible terrible writing cannot be understated. Not just to Zatanna, but to the ENTIRE DC Universe. For a long time I considered IDC to be when DC entered the Radium Age. (Until I remembered "Titans/Young Justice Graduation Day" came out several months earlier.) I still remember the first conversation I ever had about IDC, the month it was SOLICITED. Kenn: What do you know about this "Identity Crisis" thing? Comic Shop Guy: Well it starts out with a murder mystery. Someone close to the classic League is going to be killed. Kenn: Yeah. I'll miss Sue. Comic Shop Guy:.... Dammit. You're right. Kenn: Well if they killed Snapper no one would care. For the record, between 'Justice League of America'#76 and 'Justice League of America' Annual #2, Sue Dibny was NEVER shown aboard the JLA Satellite. Also, there was a standing rule that there was always one member on board doing monitor duty. So when Meltzer, et al. glommed onto one trivial story arc, but made hash of nearly two decades of canon it was infuriating. And that's before the "does something distasteful have to be shown question." It also introduced us to Deathstroke the Marysue, who went from being a cool villain to a published fanwank villain like that in the WORST comic book fight ever written. AND there was a story, just 3 years earlier (2001) in "JLA" (circa #50) that made use of the fact that the Justice League didn't all know each other's secret IDs until then. Granted this was contrary to the Silver Age stories, but it had been canon since 1987 or so. =========== End of the day, Didio came to power at DC with a hitlist for certain characters, and a general disdain for the mood of DC comics. And it showed in IDC. And Graduation day. And Infinite Crisis (seriously, watch how Kal-L's description of the post-Crisis DCU jumps from 1994 to 2004, ignoring the best decade DC has ever had post-Crisis.) [On a sidenote, can someone explain to me why Kal-L was using Kal-El's Fortress NOT his own? see Superman vol. 1 #17 & All-Star Squadron #22] So, trying to figure out if Zatanna was damaged by the Mind Control stories... it's an unequivocal 'yes'. But that was the plan.
Great "archeological" work! Really impressive. Zatanna is one of my favorite characters (collected her entire series, which seems is the topic of another video you uploaded and that I shall watch next) and was upset by how she was portrayed in IDENTITY CRISIS. However, never would I have imagined how low the plotters at DC were willing to drag her down. That's the problem with being a supporting character: most people won't care, so they just go for it. Nice video. Thanks.
Without watching the video first, imma guess Identity Crisis. Edit: I was right :”) Also is anyone going to mention that DAMIAN WAYNE with his Teen Titans mind wiped a whole bunch of villians while keeping them in an illegal prison? When Zatanna does it, oh it’s a whole crisis, but when Damian does it years later everyone just bats an eye?
I think it was the nature of each storyline. Identity Crisis, boy oh boy, definitely an event, but being such a polarizing event only heightened the stances. While Damian was introduced as the Grandson of Ra’s Al Ghul and the son of Batman. He’s always being a character that crosses the line. As the video stated Nu52 helped Zatana the explore this more. [x]
@@kaineshigaraki5253 New York World's Fair Comics #1 (April '39) has Superman, Sandman and Zatara on the cover (along with two comedic characters, Butch the Pup and Ginger Snap). Batman would not debut until the next month. They're all in separate stories, but it's the first time superheroes share a cover.
Funny thing is you could have done a whole sub reference to The Jo'nn J'ozz mindwipe of Alex Danvers In The CW "Supergirl" series and the problematic fallout from that.
Definitely my own introspection getting put on the character but I feel like she wouldn't mind wipe Selena to forget her daughter because of the zatanas own parental abandonment issues
The mindwipes were inexcusable seeing as mind wipes weren't used liberally until after Identity Crisis despite other villains doing simmilar stuff to Dr Light in times that would have been after that retcon took place. Plus she doesn't erase Sue or Ralph's memory of the events which makes the mindwipes only a punishment and violation. In essence one of my favorite DC characters became a super villain with good publicity after a story that should never have been written in continuity.
I have often said that the story arcs "Identity Crisis" thru "Final Crisis" were arguably DC's best years since Infinite Crisis in terms of storytelling and artwork. There was alot of exploration about responsibility of powers and their abuse. Whether it was Wonder Woman snapping Max's neck (the "original" snap), Black Adam's unforgiving methods in trying to protect his homeland, or Batman's paranoia led use of OMAC and keeping a shard of kryptonite handy in case his buddy went bonkers. These were all, in essence, possible answers to questions many of us asked over the years. The Zatanna mindwipe thread was certainly part of that and I found it very intriguing. I could sympathize with her while also being ultimately disappointed in her decision. I could root for her redemption while also hoping for some sort of....clear resolution? Comic book stories tend to be a mine field of plot holes, contrived plots, and less than organic continuity. But those few years beginning in 2004 were a time when I felt DC made a good attempt at exploring themes that made sense within the context of the human condition. Was it really beyond the pale that some of our heroes might somehow feel compelled to bend or break their principles in a moment where they believed it was right? For me, the important part was that the stories of the period were good (mostly) even if they did stain the moral character of some of my favorites. I know writers had tried to portray moral ambiguity before but it never felt like more than shock value and gimmick. This was deeper. Longer lasting. Most of the heroes - and even some villains - were taking a closer look at their own motivations in a way I had never seen before over so many multiple issues of storytelling. It wasn't just angst driven for the sake of appealing to those who enjoy angst. This was about real world (the "real" within the pages) consequences of what people might do given such abilities.
when she 'nudged' an already trying to reform Catwoman to be more good; people questioned the change... if a wholly evil person, suddenly hangs up his Costume and opens up a Soup Kitchen one of two things has happened... He's been mind whammied... OR He's gone all the way around the bend to real world crazy; and you need to see how much Rat Poison he's buying and if the homeless he's feeding are turning up dead
@@TJ52359 That is fair, and I had to think a bit. The only DC villain I might trust in any kitchen is Condiment King. I think there's a way to make a villain's backstory and skill set be able to help the community on some level. I also think that most heroes and villains face some sort of trauma, and what marks them as one or the other is how they respond to it.
Never knew this was a thing until now. I mostly knew her from small cameos in cartoons... Since I'd been 8 or 9 at the time. Also I've said her name Za-ta-na and only recently started saying Za-tan-na and fumbling between the two.
Yeah I go between both pronunciations too, the name Anna is pronounced both ways depending on where you're from, my friend Anna who is from Georgia pronounces it Aww Nuh, but everyone out here west usually calls her Ann Ugh so it's probably either or.
It's like the Scarlet Witch at Marvel at some points in time (1960's/90's/2000's). They have a powerful character and doesn't know what to do with them! Or they decide to do something with in a storyline that is hated years later (try/fail to retcon).
Zatanna has always been one of my favorite characters. I don't think the Mind Wipe stuff ruined her at all. it made for interesting storytelling, and that is the only thing the characters are ultimately there to do.
This whole thing bothered me to no end back in the day. it completely ruined Zatanna and the others who voted to mind wipe Doctor Light forever to me. Zatanna just getting away with everything by "feeling bad" about it was stupid. She kept doing it too! If you feel bad Zat, why keep doing it? Made me OK with the reboot in 2011. Just expunge it all and move on.
lets not forget the One shot with Black Canary called:" Zatanna And Black Canary: BloodSpell" where she traps a villainess's soul in a show Dove and waits until said villainess's soul is forever stuck as a Dove without knowing that she was a human. that is fucked up.
Yep. I love Zatanna but have to agree that Identity Crisis set up a really bad plot for her. With Light, his wipe was more like a full personality rewrite, unlike the other targets. The attack on Sue was just there to 'justify' the league doing the wipe but I feel the book was unneeded. The could've addressed the mind wipe using the Secret Six and erase all traces of Identity Crisis, which really damaged her character until the reboot. Instead, Zatanna can be blamed for a lot of the hyper-paranoid Bat plots (and trying to play up her connection to Bruce made her actions with Selina look more like a way to get rid of the competition)
I really like Zatanna, loved her in the Justice League Dark animated movies and in Young Justice. As far as the mind wipe of Dr Light, I'm kinda OK with that, it's an alternative to killing, Mind wiping the bat though - thats where it gets sticky.
Altering mind even for the villains is the real troublesome issue I think. But it seems being discussed the least. Making Dr Light dumber seems like too much, worst than death? Maybe not… The transgression even seems problematic if somehow they would have agreed to change his mind to be a normal harmless person because it is forcing themselves over someone’s will. Imagine that going into hundreds of people being turned into a stage cartoon of a man/woman, as the system’s desire. Some kind of slavery… anyway, great story.
Well the problem I have with that is, though Light migh've been mind wiped, the League still left a well-known rapist fight a group of not just teenagers, but their sidekicks, family and proteges. It's one thing to try to portray the 'heroes' in a more gray tone... And a whole other to portray them as complete and utter sociopaths, specially considering that one of the first things Light did after being Mind-wiped was capturing Robin and Wonder Girl and using his tech to suck some key information of the League's satellite, because while Light might've been rather comical, apparently someone forgot he was still quite dangerous.
I had to check if you've already reviewed it, but, since you didn't mention it, I figured it hadn't hit your shelf yet. You should DEFINITELY read the Harley and Ivy Meet Betty and Veronica. When you hit the end of issue 2, you'll realize why I suggested the 6 issue mini-series after watching this episode. Great episode, BTW!
I love that Mark Gruenwald predicted Batman leaving the Justice League due to his fellow heroes mind wiping their antagonists almost 20 years before Identity Crisis in the pages of Squadron Supreme.
@@c.j.thedude When he becomes a BOOK (by having his ashes mixed into the printing ink of the first edition paperbacks of Squadron Supreme)! Then a Mark becomes many, many marks!
Funny thing is Batman was never above mindwiping villains. Just before Identity crisis came out, in JLA (1997) #1-4 the Justice league had Martian manhunter lobotomize 70 martians to shapeshift and live as humans. Those martians had their memories altered and made to live as humans against thier will, doing jobs, having families with humans etc. In Faces of Evil: Prometheus, Batman and MM turned the villain Prometheus into a vegetable and kept him like that for years.
As always wonderful and thanks! Youth can be as wasted on the young, as wisdom can be wasted on the aged/elderly. I would like to suggest comparison contrast on two movies “Mad Monster Party” with “Frosty The Snowman”. Your perspective would be DELICIOUS AND WONDROUS!
My friend the other night gave me the low down on Zatanna (their face character) because I knew nothing of her and the mind wipes eventually came up. My firm stance is "please no just noooo" if it had been executed even close to reasonably I'd be more on the fence but this but with how they did it we all the inconsistently as well as retconing Salina like, it's too sour for me. Make a choice and commit to it damn it! BUT ALSO MAKE SURE ITS WELL WRITTEN FOR CHIRST SAKE
The main issue with the mind wipe, which I want to preface that I am not a fan of, being the use of magic to fix the plot holes, is the change of the character’s personality. Dr Light became a dufus after this episode. He lost his role as being a real threat and became a joke character. Batman on the other hand did not have his personality directly changed. The change was a result of what he perceived as a mental rape being perpetrated on him which I cannot fault him for feeling that way. With that said, I am a Zatanna fan, and I do find the idea that she could be addicted to magic as being compelling. I do like the current run where she learns and realizes that there is a cost to using magic.
Two guesses: first, J'onn has an obvious code of honor against this kind of thing, He's always been portrayed as an honorable man, while Zatanna never got her personality well defined. But the more probable reason is that at the time of the DL mindrape J'onn wasn't a JLA member, I think. By the way, what's worse? the rape of the flesh or the rape of the mind? Something to think about.
I think she was there so that is that, and she needed some spotlight in more stories… I also find more believable magic can effectively erase memories that will stay that way.
If all stories are canon, then Hal definitely sold power rings for a dollar in order to catch Gorilla Grod dressed in drag.
i need context now
@@rossman8919 She did a video a while back about exactly that. But it was a non canon comic. A promo comic or something, I don’t remember.
@@lennyfiasco9834 but now everything is canon. So now it definitely happened.
Classic
@@pastproductions6781 Facts. DC is kind of trash now.
Some dude: Zatanna, you're unforgettable.
Zatanna: Wanna bet?
?teb annaw?
*proceeds to mind wipe*
Zatanna. Paul Dini's favorite character to the point he actually married an actual magician.
I did not know that. Interesting, since his name’s always reminded me of Houdini.
And the first crossover episode in Animated Series was with Zatanna.
What?! That explains that B:TAS episode...
@@paulosergioribeiro7200 oh yeah.
The funny part is Paul Dini definitely had a Zatanna fixation long before BTAS. I watched an episode of Jem he wrote where Jem and the Holograms dressed in Zatanna-inspired outfits.
Moral of the Story: Friends don’t mind wipe friends
Otherwise your friends end up making stuff to beat you and Skynet.
Friends don't let friends mindwipe friends... while drunk..
Too bad I don't consider Batman a friend
Agreed, it's like time travel, just leave it alone as a plot device
I mindwipe people all the time, and I don't have a problem with it.
"ruined until the new 52". That's a phrase I never expected to hear.
@@nope5657 You just demonstrated why the consensus is that the New 52 is bad. I'll let you ruminate on that.
Tbf I kinda hate that they pushing aside Zatanna to uplifting Constantine at early JLD. But God damn, I really love new 52 Zatanna after the first half of it and how her journey defeating Pralaya who is aspect of the God that putting all creation and the God to eternal sleep and saving the Multiverse
For me, personally, John Constantine, and Batman had good runs during the Nu52 [x]
@@maizen1403 I prefer the Zatanna and Constantine stuff before New 52, the stuff in Hellblazer and especially the stuff in Books of Magic with Timothy Hunter was great. Not sure if we can say New 52 improved Zatanna, though I am really liking what Ram V has done with her. I can say New 52 ruined Constantine though, and his only good stuff since was the Si Spurrier Hellblazer arc that erases the entire new 52 and resets him.
@@chad8767 i agree
new52 also broght in nick only for the drama...which is so annoying
new 52 zatanna often acted out of character. but i like that they showed how powerful she is.
I also like the way ram v fixes what 52 partwise did wrong.
It reminds me of the plot line they gave Miss Martian in the Young Justice season 2. They definitely showed the repercussions and why you shouldn’t mind wipe people. I think they handled it well there
More importantly.. after it was over they didn't go back to it to beat you over the head with "REMEMBER WHEN THIS HAPPENED AND M'GANN DID THIS BAD THING!" over and over and over. It comes up like what? in one episode of Season 3 in a relevant context where Conner feels M'gann's falling into her "for the Greater good" mindset again.
really that's the best way to NOT have something completely stick to a define a character, don't freaking bring it back up over and over and over again.
Yes! great series!
@thewalrus45 it was plot critical for the invasion arc that she was scared of going too far with her psychic powers, which allowed the scarab controlled Martian to trick the group into believing he was on their side.
See's title: "Is is the mind wipes?"
The video: "It's the mind wipes."
Aahhhh yes, I loved how that was her thing for no reason.
I also love that Zatanna has had different looks, even as recent as the New 52, but everybody tends to ignore them, and give her standard look, top hat or no top hat.
Fishnets or no fishnets
To be honest I like her standers look (plus that 70s JLA look)
I love her Future State outfit, It's perfect balance of her loved classic Magician costume while retaining mysterious bad ass vibe JLD has
Fishnets 💯 but I have enjoyed some of the new looks as well
HAHA! Same! I was like, is it the mind wipes? If it's not the mind wipes, I wonder what it could be. [×]
Back in the Silver Age, DC heroes resorted to mind-wipes almost casually, usually when a villain learned one of their secrets.
They used hypnosis, magic or amnesium, a strange element that could suck out memories.
In one JLA story (the one where they get exiled to space) the League resorts to revealing all their secret identities to fight the baddies.
At the end of the story, Superman just says he will use his store of amnesium to make the whole world forget.
It was a different time when superheroes would resort to all sorts of elaborate plots to trick Lois Lane.
Lois Lane was Goddamn relentless
Yeah back in the silver ags people didn't know about psychology.
Mindwipes are not so bad, I think. It's the editing one's personality when you stop being "pragmatic" and becomes a full blown a$$ hole with megalomaniacal tendencies.
@@sergioaccioly5219 Cool! When are you getting yours?
@@c.j.thedude he already did. Don't you remember?...
This is her wife slapping moment. Not many people in comics are defined so much by a single act. Except Hank Pym. And everyone knows that was a miscommunication between the writer and the artist that the writer kept in and rewrote the story around.
THAT was the story behind the face slap?! Lololodjshahshjshai
"Can I get the top hat and fishnets back, please?"
Seconded!
"What do you care about a leggy dame in nylons... or have I already answered my own question?"
Nah. I love her new look since Rebirth. [x]
@@jonathonriddle9922 Yes, you did.
She's not really Zatanna without them.
@DANGER MAN Taking them away is like taking away the Superman symbol. It's politically correct and awful.
Meanwhile in marvel. Doctor Strange be like: Hmm hold my beer!! Let's mind-wipe everybody!!
"It's time to put dude who shot me inside his mind. And oh, what about this secret group led by Stark, who is totally not a man child."
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 At least the nurse, who was with Doctor Strange at the time was shocked.
I mean Pete's asking me for something totally unreasonable here to save his aunt who's of advanced age anyway, ah fuck it i'll do it.
He can do all of that, and yet he can’t heal a simple bullet wound.
Zatanna mindwiping Selena and altering her mind makes no sense at all. The mindwipe undermines Catwoman's character development and raises questions on why Zatanna hasn't mindwipe other villains like Lex Luthor or Joker as Catwoman traditionally is more of an anti-hero than a villain
Because if it wasn’t real character development, the writers have an excuse to regress them. Because character development is bad. Apparently. Why write a complex character when you can regress them and rehash old themes?
@@tomorrow4eva isn't that just long running American comic Companies like marvel and DC do things anyway? So many stories, not even half of them being canonical anymore. and the same characters from 1945 and maybe 17 new ones being used constantly?
@@patricklukcy13 Yes. I wish they would do more planned reboots - like: the world just reset, the next ten years we can develop the characters, and then we'll reset and tell it over again with different adventures and relationships, etc. Then you'd have a continuity and could let some things end, without all the brain twisting nonsense they do right now. Maybe run an second title for a popular character as a different continuity of there is a market. For example, Batman can be solo Batman all working alone and broody. Detective Comics could be Batman that's involved with the JL and has kids.
@@tomorrow4eva thats why I stick with Manga. It's loads easier to find good stories. I know they are different mediums, but still I like the opproach Manga has better.
@@patricklukcy13 I hear you. Manga definitely has some more solid stories. I just love some of the comic book characters too much to not keep tabs on them. Plus sometimes it's fun to watch people's faces while you tell them Donna Troy's backstory.
Sasha made a bad video once...but she mindwiped us all to forget about it!
It actually was more than that exactly......what were we talking about?
😂😂😂
We need Layla Miller!
*_"ETAVIRP_*
*_SIHT_*
*_OEDIV!"_*
@@brycel4692 She knows stuff.....but not the right stuff.
Personally I do think exploring Zatanna's morality about her magic and the things she can do is perfect. I always liked her being on the side of good, but somehow abusing her powers because let's be real, she's one of the most powerful characters in DC, but that personality of hers should be explored and more fleshed out, instead of being left sidelined.
Yeah, she sound like a kid who enjoys using her power to mind-wipe, and had a hard time deciding when it wasn't needed.
Agreed I love Zatanna she's the 🐐 but they really should explore the character a lot more instead of flip flopping from one moment a Hero to the next issue a remorseless borderline Villain, they briefly touch on it then never delve into it again. Still one of my favorite characters but definitely a character who could be improved
It's kinda irritated me that the writer doesn't flesh out of why Zatanna mindwipe the villain.
Zatanna recently lost both of her parents as you can see her visiting her mom gravestone. Plus she is still young and She just don't want her friends doesn't suffer the same. Limiting it just to one accident is better than make her like a maniac that keeping mindwiping villain
True, that would be a good excuse to explore her relationship with her father as well. Since they're both capable of manipulating memories and personalities it would be cool to see something with that.
I think Teen titans rebirth did it better with Djinnand the consequences were even harsher because it was one of the reasons they were disbanded.
I'm always left so disappointed by mid-wiping witches' storylines because it feels like the explorations of consequences are either half-assed or brushed aside. Maybe this thread is left unexplored because writers know how difficult it would be to truly redeem someone who's done something that awful if you show the consequences of their actions in detail. So the stories often feel like their missing a step between the character doing the awful thing and people forgiving them. It happened with Wanda in WandaVision and it happened with Miss Martian in Young Justice so I'm not surprised Zatanna got the same treatment.
After all, it is what education institutions do all the time. Mindwipe their students with their point of view repeatedly until the original truth is forgotten. Same difference, just non-magical. The trick is to pull off that 4.0 by providing the professor with the answers they want while still remembering which are factually incorrect. Fun times.
What do you mean by mindwipes here. I really don't think they're that bad if it's just their secret identity that they didn't give you.
But mind control or altering some thing. That is bad.
Anyway there's nothing to explore. Everyone knows it's bad.
Read the squadron supreme book if you want to see heroes use it to an extreme.
How long do you want characters to hold grudges over bad writing.
I definitely think it could be done well. Maybe if not framed in an ultra villainous light at first. Like a villain who is genuinely too dangerous to imprison/otherwise unable to deal with normally, where the only alternative is killing. In that situation a mind wipe could be done while not needing to break character too mu h for a morally good hero. Especially if the hero then works with the mind wiped to build a better life. We then could have a slippery slope where they maybe begin trying to deal with villains that way even when not strictly nessassary(like the doctor light thing) or when someone asks them for it(like the catwoman thing). Now that we have a legitimate argument for the good that this sort of mind wiping can do bring in a villain who has the same power that mindwipes people against thier will to get what they want. Have the hero themselves seeing this villain consider for themselves if what the two of them are doing is truly different and if it something they should stop doing altogether or undo.
In short: the Zatana mindwipes don't work becuase they break character and don't give her any real agency. Give her agency and create a villain to explore the truly nasty aspects of mind wiping without breaking character.
I've never been a huge fan of the whole idea of 'everyone can be morally ambiguous and make bad decisions, except for Batman'. It always seems to put everyone else down, just so we can bask in the awe of how much of a deep angel Bruce is.
It should be mentioned that in (just about) every story about the JLA going bad, it's the Batman who stands against them. Hell, it even translates into the Mark Gruenwald Squadron Supreme miniseries, when Nighthawk formed an undercover team to oppose the SS Utopia project.
I loved that idea every one of the heroes has his own point of view and with no clear right answer some views are going to clash.
@@manart6506 Except there usually is a clear right answer, and the point of view you are meant to side with is usually Batman's side. That's the problem.
@@jacobwilliams1223 what? There is always a point of view. Not even history is clear black and white. And I didn’t really sided with Batman in this one.
Many writers tend to do that and it's honestly annoying. When Batman does a bad thing, the story tries super hard to make it seem justifiable and "a good thing, actually". I bet if he was the one mindwiping Doctor Light here, they would've excused themselves saying it was "necessary and for the greater good" just the same way they tried to justify him plotting against his own allies.
Batman: "Friends don’t mind wipe friends. I will not forgive that."
Green Arrow: "You know, friends also don't spy on friends to figured out their secret identities."
Hawkman: "Friends don't make hidden contingency plans behind their friends backs."
Jim Gordon: "Also, they don't sneak out in the middle of conversations to show off their ninja skills!!!"
Batman:".....Can't we all just forgive each other?! We're all friends here!"
Ha! Thanks, that was really good. 😂😂
Job well done m8 [x{
Identity Crisis, in my mind, fully justifies every single time people didn't trust super heroes in the DC Universe.
After what these seven did, Bruce was morally obligated to get ready if a rematch were ever to happen. Before Hawkman decided that the President of the US needed to be made more friendly to the JLA or something, for example.
@@sergioaccioly5219 It was just a bad story, nothing more, but even so, Bruce has no moral high ground to speak about, because of Tower of Babel.
Noted. Noted.
Ah, Identity Crisis...the Crisis that just keeps on giving...
Edit: Any depiction of the JLA that has them saying, "Hey, it's a slow day, let's go commit some crimes!" is a bad one. BTW, she erased Dr. Light's memory of the rape, but what about Sue's? Wouldn't it have been at least arguably a good thing to spare her that memory??
One of many big, gaping plotholes in Identity Crisis. Ralph and Sue Dibny both know about the rape, but don't know about the mindwipe. They could've blown the whole secret wide open if they'd ever tried to press charges against Dr. Light.
I think the mindwipe was about limiting future damage not softening damage already done.
@@k9feline2 Right. Sure. The Best detective in the league (Ralph) did not know about the mindwipe. It's basically understood that he did in the subtext of the series.
Honestly, the whole series/arc is a mess.
For me, personally, it felt like they prioritized “GOTCHA” moments with scandalous subplots over substance. [x]
@@arturogalletti1799 He reacts with surprise and disapproval when the others talk about the mindwipe. It's abundantly clear that he didn't know about it.
Mind wipes as a plot device has never done more damage to Zatanna's character than costume changes have. Come on, DC. "If it ain't broke..."
Exactly. She is not Zatanna without her classic look. It's like taking away Superman's symbol.
If it aint broke make a crisis event and break it!!!
Damn zatanna be looking more broken than most People’s relastionship with their dad.
I always thought that Martian Manhunter was a better choice to do the mind wipe with his mental powers, than someone trying to do it with magic.
Arguably another plot hole in the infamous Identity Crisis event. Fun ride, but what a mess. [x]
I feel like he's had that plot line but maybe it was in Supergirl on CW.
Yeah, at least in Justice League Dark War they explained how Zatanna did it .
I feel it makes more sense with magic, I feel other methods would create traumatic repressed feelings while magic is “puff” memories no more.
Your hair is why I watch. It's the most intriguing storyline.
At the time of recording, in the Omniverse period, all hair is canon!
I get the batman mind wipe being problematic. Mind wiping a rapist, not so much. I wouldn't have a problem with him being thrown out an airlock. Still don't think the rape storyline was a very good one.
Hear, hear.
Is it just me or is the "mind-wipe" a stand in for rape and violation, or am I reading into it too much?
Cause Zatanna's attitude and response towards being pressured into doing it (because of the power dynamic and her being new to the League) comes across as very...problematic in hindsight when looked at through that lense.
No you are right. It is that in a way. It’s a violation of another kind to the person.
It was 2004. In the same years we saw Capt. Archer of Star Trek Enterprise torturing a prisoner and robbing vital supplies from a civilian ship. Media were all high on "we must do what must be done" (transferring prisoners where they could be tortured, waterboarding...).
Which is funny cause it's in a story with actual rape.
In DnD 3.5 there was a spell that did basically the same thing as what Zatana did to Dr Light and Cat Woman.
It was quite literally called mindrape, so no your not alone in thinking that.
My first introduction to Zatanna was in Batman: The Animated Series. I loved her character from the start but I must admit, I didn't know she was a major hero until years after. As far as her name's pronunciation I use my Kevin Conroy voice and what comes out is how I pronounce it.
Yeesssss! Thank you for exploring Zatanna dark choices side! I never felt the same about her after Identity Crisis.
Also I think we all forget that there was intense romantic tension between Batman & Zatanna previous to this so the betrayal has this added layer of Bat being like "I could have loved you." if you didn't alter people's mind when it suits you.
The addition of this when they had romantic tension, and they were even trying to put her up there with Selina and Talia as potential endgame made it so uncomfortable!
Meanwhile, Dr. Strange literally mindwipes *the entire world* with NO COMEUPPANCE!!
@@CasuallyComics Absolutely! Bruce seems unfortunately unable to have a relationship that doesn't involve the violation of consent.
Ugh the fact that that Talia detail happened by accident because Grant Morrison forgot the original story he was homaging and didn't reread it bothers me to this day lol
Zat's one of those characters that nobody can get a solid grasp on, just look at the way she's been character changed over the decades. (In ways it reminds me of Felix Faust who started of a powerful sorcerer - had had his own JLA cover - but was turned into a joke and is now slowly making his way back). Zat has also ridden the power waves from low level to world beater, (Yes Spectre, you're not the only one.) and her life goals have never been consistent. I don't think that there is a way to give here a decent solid character at this point. Unless we go back to the multiverse and say that every limited series of comics run has been a Zat' from a different earth.
I think she's very easy to flesh out and develop into a cool character, though they need real writers to write her. It seems writers are afraid of her, except Dini.
"Zatanna's cool now, because she abuses her powers whenever she can!"
I'm amazed that Zack Snyder didn't make this version of Zatanna a member of his Justice League movie.
Maybe she was, and we just don't remember...
@@davidtucker9498 ayo?
To be honest I kinda hope not but I can see it happen
Tbh if he did WB would take her out because they are making a solo "zatanna" movie
Don’t be amazed. Zack Snyder doesn’t read comic books. It’s easy to see why he views the characters the way he does. He’s only read a handful for the sake of making the films. [x]
I feel like if they're going to revisit the issue of Zatanna mindwiping people, I think they can explain it by revealing she has altered her memory as well. It would serve as an allegory for people choosing to ignore the bad parts in their life as a way to cope with the decisions they've made. Also, I pronounce it Zah-Tah-Nah.
Mindwipes work really good. What's the big deal? People were mean to my girl Zay.
Honestly mindwiping doesn’t need an allegory. Just make it a literal something for the chracters to grapple with
The true tragedy is that pop figure in the background that fell down at some point. I can’t stop staring at it
Wait seeing it led to me checking the backlog of videos and realizing it’s been like that for a while this is messing with me
I can't unsee it.
@@voidaspects9173 Lol
zatanna is one of the many reasons why i'm big gay 🥺🥺🥺
I'm sorry to hear
@Rocky Croods Shouldn't you be asking her that? She's the one who seem upset that she's gay. She's homophobic to herself 😂😂😂
@Rocky Croods well they look sad as shit lol. I'm just messing around though
That's starfire for me, but Zatanna is another good reason 😭
@@SilkyLew I open up a comment section for a comment that admires Zatanna, only for a dumbass occupying it.
This has always been frustrating to me as a huge fan of the character, she has never been the star of her own story lines. She's always the guest star and support rather than the main character. The search for her father was put in focus of the characters she teamed up with, the death of her mother is framed as a league story, Identity crisis being the same way. When she finally was the center of JLD it doesn't focus on her specifically and instead focuses on them as a team. She gets a lot of character development in both runs of the JLD but her mindwipes are not mentioned and she is often overshadowed by the plot presented to John Constantine or Wonder Woman.
This is even more compounded by the fact that in almost every single appearance up until Identity Crisis she'd been nothing but a good, moral hero. Identity Crisis stained her character but the problem was that she had at least a smaller fan base than most characters at the time so it didn't matter and went largely unanswered or unexplored. Majority of fans belonged to batman and the other leaguers, leaving few to defend her character and more fans willing to pin blame solely on her. Additionally some people didn't or don't agree that she was in the wrong, the whole point was to explore the moral implications (even if poorly). If it had been handled a little better the story arc might have cast Zatanna in the role of an antihero. We already have dozens of very popular antiheroes who straight up murder characters all the time, even full fledged villains like Loki or Poison Ivy who are both known for mind control have larger and more forgiving fanbases. But for several reasons the role of antihero didn't stick to Zatanna.
Maybe because she was too obscure, had few fans, her stance is never made official, maybe because mind alteration is considered worse than death in the eyes of writers and fans, maybe because she couldn't be forgiven for erasing the mind of DC's most beloved dark knight. Whatever the case may be she was left to be completely tarnished by the deed and bear the full brunt of the decision and have it expanded upon despite its negative reception. She has had to fight back for her reputation both on panel and off panel and still the millstone lingers.
I fully agree that N52 was actually good to her as a character, not perfect, but better and at the very least didn't condemn her, and JLD rebirth has only proved to further flesh her out and treat her as a hero, not an amoral sorceress who tampers with the minds of her friends and for that at least I am grateful.
I honestly really like the relationship she’s got going on with Constantine in the Justice League Dark. I think they play well off of one another and it gives them room to explore more Magical themed adventures. But then again I’m definitely a Constantine fan girl.
Same. [x]
I don't see the real, pre-New 52 Zatanna dating Constantine or Batman. It would work extremely well to make her a bi who prefers women. This helps flesh her out in a logical way, and it works better than making Harley Quinn and Catwoman bi.
They should prefer men because of their original roles in the mythology. The current, woke stress on HQ and Poison Ivy is stupid.
HQ should change partners constantly. She is an edgy cult character, not a woke, mainstream hero and role model.
@@chihiromononoke9381 I think she should be bi or get a guy that is nice and caring and have a great sense of humor for example just like Peter Parker spider man he nice and he nothing like Bruce Wayne his parents and uncle died to but he have to move on about it so zatanna ether needs to be bi or get a guy that cares for her
As fully grown heterosexual man. I too am a Conjob fan girl.
zatanna is my favorite superhero ever! I wish she was in more stuff
Facts
Zatana did Nothing wrong
@@dn22pkkdd476 Facts. I mindwipe people all the time. It's not a big deal.
I love Zatanna! She should be in her own animated series.
@@dn22pkkdd476 Except reprogram Catwoman to turn her into a hero instead of a thief.
One bad story doesn't ruin a character, several stories referencing the bad story can ruin the character.
So, first off, I am ABSOLUTELY not arguing with you about this story. That said, this was my one of my first real exposures to Zatanna as a character, in those DC BLUE RIBBON DIGEST reprints, and despite all it's faults, it made me fall in love with the character. Note: this was a couple decades before IDENTITY CRISIS, and I was a child, lol.
I forgot about all the mind wipes! Makes me glad that on Young Justice, when they started playing around with mind wiping they left Zatanna out of it. I think they definitely learned from Z's comic experiences when writing that plot for Miss Martian - creating stakes high enough to warrant that sort of tactic potentially necessary, other characters showing immediate concern over that use of force, and all the fall out when she eventually shattered Kaldur's mind
*Lillie wears an evil Zatanna outfit but with fishnet, boots, tophat and smirks*
All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest story alive to lunacy. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once.
Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything
It is amazing how certain stories can so utterly define a character, seemingly indefinitely. Looking at Hank Pym, for instance. Even though Zatanna seems to have move on from Identity Crisis, I can't help be worry that another writer will come up, and revisit the mind wipes.
She isn't like batman and superman dc can have less heroic heros
I'm still sad about Pym.
@@undetestable1 him doing that made him more interesting then the others marvel hero's at least it makes him stand out the crowd's
What did Pym do?
@@mediatorraptor3349 hit his wife built a ultron became ultron
It's one of those things that shows how important execution is in stories. The idea of having the heroes do something questionable in the name of whats right is what stories about super people should be about but execution wise it falls flat. It also shows one of the limitations of connected continuity comics where a character can struggle to have a singular voice especially on such a heavy topic. I think you could probably link a lot of these elements into a series where Zatanna comes to terms with why she's so flagrant with her powers, potentially something to do with her relationship with her father?
"Friends dont mindwipe friends"
Someone should have explained this to Scanlan on Critical Role.
Zatanna is my favourite character just because of the young justice show
I like how they portrayed her powers in it. She's also cool in Justice League Action.
Identity Crisis: When the Justice League became the Justification League.
I love identity crisis, was the first comic book to make me cry. It’s not a perfect story but I’ll never forget it’s emotional impact. As for the mindwipes morally I’m against them but at the same time I enjoyed seeing DC heroes have complex relationships around what they do as heroes. It was a refreshing change from the superfriends vibes.
I mean, there are more shades of storytelling than “superfriends or rape”
@@spibbymcgoo4877 I agree, I’m not suggesting it becomes a weekly theme of books. It’s always difficult when fiction deals with some issues but overall I think the book had an interesting moral complexity.
This is one of those specials stories that make superhero stories greats… the fact people can’t agree or take sides is the reflection in reality of the clash in this fiction.
Personally I don’t feel what she did to Doctor Light was wrong and mind wiping the Society was necessary but mind wiping Batman was wrong. Mind wiping Selena felt out of character.
I always like the DCAU flash Luthor swap. Luthor being I can find out his identity and pulls the mask off only to say he has no idea who the face is.
I TRULY love watching your videos. They are such a great stroll on memory lane. I remember reading every single issue you reference here back when DC was awesome and before it got totally ruined by the new 52 to cater movie goers.
I actually like when it started from scratch with New52, a clean slate a new story to enjoy, there was too much baggage… it was to me like a new post Crisis on infinity Earth time with a single timeline. Sad it didn’t last.
I don't think this is so much a case of Zatanna being mischaracterised moreso than it is one of her being a proxy for editorial decisions. The whole issue of the mindwipes is attributed to her in my opinion because it provides a convenient scapegoat that dodges questioning the rest of the League, really.
You can't ask morally direct questions of the big names so you divert the responsibility to Zatanna and say 'it wasn't *us*, it was *her*' as a way of avoiding any future criticism and that has genuinely hurt her long term because that responsibiity hasn't been resituated back with the League, where it belongs.
It's breathtaking to think that the editorial staff at DC (and I'd single out Johns as a main culprit) felt that wholesale mindwiping and outright betrayals of trust were *okay* to do and use as a plot element, along with turning Doctor Light into this desperate rapist.
Think about what that says about the writing decisions; Light at this point can't have a crisis of confidence or even breaks, he has to *rape* someone as a character moment.
That's not good writing, that's deliberately going out to shock the audience. And I bring that up because that directly informs the same proxy decision using Zatanna as the tool to serve the writer's ends.
Both Doctor Light *and* Zatanna were damaged irreparably by this and the blame (yes, blame) HAS to land squarely at the feet of the League as characters and they should be answerable to it.
Not only that but at the end Dr. Light didn't have ANYTHING to do with the actual murder mystery, it was literally there for shock value and to provide cheap drama and a pointless fight later on.
Any sort of mindwipe plot really needs some sort of being that's not really part of the group to do it. An impartial cosmic type being.
The action Zatanna did in Identity Crisis was similar to how I felt with Wonder Woman in Infinite Crisis, very extreme.
I see events like that like comic becoming more mature, and while one is about violence (death) &!the other is about morality. Both about consequences. Not ignoring that kind of things is something good for stories IMO.
Zatanna's action can be fishy as her fishnets stocking, awesome video as always 👍👍
Remember that both Bruce and Clark (and many others) have used "mind-wipe", in comics and television, many times before, with Kryptonian Tech, Drugs, Bat-sprays, and various other methods. I appreciate the questions and issues raised, (finally) and challenged in the Zatanna stories. (Not to mention the, I think, even bigger issues with forcing changes in villains personalities. I now look back on the Doc Savage books I read in my (70's) youth, and his criminal changing ("re-rehabilitating") surgeries, and cringe. (Like I do with many other "old" stories.))
As always thank you so very much for the video.
And I say both.
kind of makes me want a Momento-esk story where Batman wakes up in a bunch of different ways without his memories and has to piece together what is going on to discover a evil Zatanna has been constantly wiping the memory of everyone she comes across.
I don't really care about the moral ambiguity of the mind wiping. But that's probably because Zatanna cast a spell on me to make me not care. ⚡
I would rather wear fishnet and top hat than elf booties
*Lillie wears the original suit*
The damage wrought by "Identity Crisis" and the utterly terrible terrible writing cannot be understated. Not just to Zatanna, but to the ENTIRE DC Universe. For a long time I considered IDC to be when DC entered the Radium Age. (Until I remembered "Titans/Young Justice Graduation Day" came out several months earlier.) I still remember the first conversation I ever had about IDC, the month it was SOLICITED.
Kenn: What do you know about this "Identity Crisis" thing?
Comic Shop Guy: Well it starts out with a murder mystery. Someone close to the classic League is going to be killed.
Kenn: Yeah. I'll miss Sue.
Comic Shop Guy:.... Dammit. You're right.
Kenn: Well if they killed Snapper no one would care.
For the record, between 'Justice League of America'#76 and 'Justice League of America' Annual #2, Sue Dibny was NEVER shown aboard the JLA Satellite. Also, there was a standing rule that there was always one member on board doing monitor duty. So when Meltzer, et al. glommed onto one trivial story arc, but made hash of nearly two decades of canon it was infuriating. And that's before the "does something distasteful have to be shown question."
It also introduced us to Deathstroke the Marysue, who went from being a cool villain to a published fanwank villain like that in the WORST comic book fight ever written.
AND there was a story, just 3 years earlier (2001) in "JLA" (circa #50) that made use of the fact that the Justice League didn't all know each other's secret IDs until then. Granted this was contrary to the Silver Age stories, but it had been canon since 1987 or so.
===========
End of the day, Didio came to power at DC with a hitlist for certain characters, and a general disdain for the mood of DC comics. And it showed in IDC. And Graduation day. And Infinite Crisis (seriously, watch how Kal-L's description of the post-Crisis DCU jumps from 1994 to 2004, ignoring the best decade DC has ever had post-Crisis.)
[On a sidenote, can someone explain to me why Kal-L was using Kal-El's Fortress NOT his own? see Superman vol. 1 #17 & All-Star Squadron #22]
So, trying to figure out if Zatanna was damaged by the Mind Control stories... it's an unequivocal 'yes'. But that was the plan.
Great "archeological" work! Really impressive. Zatanna is one of my favorite characters (collected her entire series, which seems is the topic of another video you uploaded and that I shall watch next) and was upset by how she was portrayed in IDENTITY CRISIS. However, never would I have imagined how low the plotters at DC were willing to drag her down. That's the problem with being a supporting character: most people won't care, so they just go for it. Nice video. Thanks.
I never knew that Zatanna (TAH-na :D) was the mind-wiper in chief of the Justice League. I learned something new about her disturbing history.
Without watching the video first, imma guess Identity Crisis.
Edit: I was right :”)
Also is anyone going to mention that DAMIAN WAYNE with his Teen Titans mind wiped a whole bunch of villians while keeping them in an illegal prison? When Zatanna does it, oh it’s a whole crisis, but when Damian does it years later everyone just bats an eye?
I think it was the nature of each storyline. Identity Crisis, boy oh boy, definitely an event, but being such a polarizing event only heightened the stances. While Damian was introduced as the Grandson of Ra’s Al Ghul and the son of Batman. He’s always being a character that crosses the line. As the video stated Nu52 helped Zatana the explore this more. [x]
This is honestly the most detailed examination of the whole issue I've ever seen. Kudos.
I can never resist a chance to point out that the original DC Trinity was Superman, Sandman and Zatara. Which rhymes with Sahara.
Yeah, but which way do you pronounce Sahara?
Wait. WHAT? Elaborate please. [x]
@@kaineshigaraki5253 New York World's Fair Comics #1 (April '39) has Superman, Sandman and Zatara on the cover (along with two comedic characters, Butch the Pup and Ginger Snap). Batman would not debut until the next month. They're all in separate stories, but it's the first time superheroes share a cover.
Funny thing is you could have done a whole sub reference to The Jo'nn J'ozz mindwipe of Alex Danvers In The CW "Supergirl" series and the problematic fallout from that.
Definitely my own introspection getting put on the character but I feel like she wouldn't mind wipe Selena to forget her daughter because of the zatanas own parental abandonment issues
DC: See we fixed all our continuity.
You fucked up a perfectly good magician. See, now she has morality problems.
The mindwipes were inexcusable seeing as mind wipes weren't used liberally until after Identity Crisis despite other villains doing simmilar stuff to Dr Light in times that would have been after that retcon took place. Plus she doesn't erase Sue or Ralph's memory of the events which makes the mindwipes only a punishment and violation. In essence one of my favorite DC characters became a super villain with good publicity after a story that should never have been written in continuity.
The world needs more Zatanna
At the end of X-Men: First Class:
Moira MacTaggert: How dare she play with their minds like that! Isn't that terrible, Charles?
Charles Xavier: ...
Lol. Chuck makes my girl Zay seem like Mary Marvel.
Cool vid 👍 would you ever do a Black Alice video or H Dial vid?
I have often said that the story arcs "Identity Crisis" thru "Final Crisis" were arguably DC's best years since Infinite Crisis in terms of storytelling and artwork. There was alot of exploration about responsibility of powers and their abuse. Whether it was Wonder Woman snapping Max's neck (the "original" snap), Black Adam's unforgiving methods in trying to protect his homeland, or Batman's paranoia led use of OMAC and keeping a shard of kryptonite handy in case his buddy went bonkers. These were all, in essence, possible answers to questions many of us asked over the years.
The Zatanna mindwipe thread was certainly part of that and I found it very intriguing. I could sympathize with her while also being ultimately disappointed in her decision. I could root for her redemption while also hoping for some sort of....clear resolution?
Comic book stories tend to be a mine field of plot holes, contrived plots, and less than organic continuity. But those few years beginning in 2004 were a time when I felt DC made a good attempt at exploring themes that made sense within the context of the human condition. Was it really beyond the pale that some of our heroes might somehow feel compelled to bend or break their principles in a moment where they believed it was right? For me, the important part was that the stories of the period were good (mostly) even if they did stain the moral character of some of my favorites. I know writers had tried to portray moral ambiguity before but it never felt like more than shock value and gimmick. This was deeper. Longer lasting. Most of the heroes - and even some villains - were taking a closer look at their own motivations in a way I had never seen before over so many multiple issues of storytelling. It wasn't just angst driven for the sake of appealing to those who enjoy angst. This was about real world (the "real" within the pages) consequences of what people might do given such abilities.
Sasha's shirt is giving me Two-Face vibes.
Big ol blemish on Zatanna. If you're going to mind wipe villains, why keep them villainous?
when she 'nudged' an already trying to reform Catwoman to be more good; people questioned the change...
if a wholly evil person, suddenly hangs up his Costume and opens up a Soup Kitchen one of two things has happened... He's been mind whammied... OR He's gone all the way around the bend to real world crazy; and you need to see how much Rat Poison he's buying and if the homeless he's feeding are turning up dead
@@TJ52359 That is fair, and I had to think a bit. The only DC villain I might trust in any kitchen is Condiment King.
I think there's a way to make a villain's backstory and skill set be able to help the community on some level. I also think that most heroes and villains face some sort of trauma, and what marks them as one or the other is how they respond to it.
Is there any possibility that Zatanna's real name is Anna Taz?
Ereht did uoy tahw ees I
I loved Paul Dini’s run on Zatanna. I also love batman and Zatanna as a couple.
Never knew this was a thing until now. I mostly knew her from small cameos in cartoons... Since I'd been 8 or 9 at the time.
Also I've said her name Za-ta-na and only recently started saying Za-tan-na and fumbling between the two.
Yeah I go between both pronunciations too, the name Anna is pronounced both ways depending on where you're from, my friend Anna who is from Georgia pronounces it Aww Nuh, but everyone out here west usually calls her Ann Ugh so it's probably either or.
This even mentioned through dialogue in the first Injustice game when you fight Zatanna vs Batman.
I hate that they keep trying to “update” Z’s costume. Especially the “Lobster tail”. Stick with what works.
She's not Zatanna without her classic look. It's like taking Superman's symbol away.
Great video! Have you considered making a comic book fancast for characters like Zantanna or Punchline?
It's like the Scarlet Witch at Marvel at some points in time (1960's/90's/2000's). They have a powerful character and doesn't know what to do with them! Or they decide to do something with in a storyline that is hated years later (try/fail to retcon).
Zatanna has always been one of my favorite characters. I don't think the Mind Wipe stuff ruined her at all. it made for interesting storytelling, and that is the only thing the characters are ultimately there to do.
Yeah this story was great. Only problem is if you strongly are against what Zatanna did but I think all view points are understandable.
No one's going to talk about Books of Magic Zatanna? That's the one I love.
Your videos are insanely thorough! You could give classes...
This whole thing bothered me to no end back in the day. it completely ruined Zatanna and the others who voted to mind wipe Doctor Light forever to me. Zatanna just getting away with everything by "feeling bad" about it was stupid. She kept doing it too! If you feel bad Zat, why keep doing it? Made me OK with the reboot in 2011. Just expunge it all and move on.
lets not forget the One shot with Black Canary called:" Zatanna And Black Canary: BloodSpell" where she traps a villainess's soul in a show Dove and waits until said villainess's soul is forever stuck as a Dove without knowing that she was a human. that is fucked up.
This is why Zay is my girl.
Dan Didio...that man did more damage to D.C. Comics than a drunk Frank Miller.
Brian Michael Bendis is trying to break his record.
Yep. I love Zatanna but have to agree that Identity Crisis set up a really bad plot for her. With Light, his wipe was more like a full personality rewrite, unlike the other targets. The attack on Sue was just there to 'justify' the league doing the wipe but I feel the book was unneeded. The could've addressed the mind wipe using the Secret Six and erase all traces of Identity Crisis, which really damaged her character until the reboot. Instead, Zatanna can be blamed for a lot of the hyper-paranoid Bat plots (and trying to play up her connection to Bruce made her actions with Selina look more like a way to get rid of the competition)
Loving your 2face style outfit! Looks great on you! Also should we call u Sasha or Shaasa?
I really like Zatanna, loved her in the Justice League Dark animated movies and in Young Justice.
As far as the mind wipe of Dr Light, I'm kinda OK with that, it's an alternative to killing, Mind wiping the bat though - thats where it gets sticky.
Altering mind even for the villains is the real troublesome issue I think. But it seems being discussed the least. Making Dr Light dumber seems like too much, worst than death? Maybe not… The transgression even seems problematic if somehow they would have agreed to change his mind to be a normal harmless person because it is forcing themselves over someone’s will. Imagine that going into hundreds of people being turned into a stage cartoon of a man/woman, as the system’s desire. Some kind of slavery… anyway, great story.
Well the problem I have with that is, though Light migh've been mind wiped, the League still left a well-known rapist fight a group of not just teenagers, but their sidekicks, family and proteges.
It's one thing to try to portray the 'heroes' in a more gray tone... And a whole other to portray them as complete and utter sociopaths, specially considering that one of the first things Light did after being Mind-wiped was capturing Robin and Wonder Girl and using his tech to suck some key information of the League's satellite, because while Light might've been rather comical, apparently someone forgot he was still quite dangerous.
She was really great in The 1st Books of magic graphic novel by Gaiman
Yess! At last!
Awesome.... is that a berserk manga in the background 🙂
I had to check if you've already reviewed it, but, since you didn't mention it, I figured it hadn't hit your shelf yet. You should DEFINITELY read the Harley and Ivy Meet Betty and Veronica. When you hit the end of issue 2, you'll realize why I suggested the 6 issue mini-series after watching this episode.
Great episode, BTW!
I say Zuh-Tann-Uhh.
If I've had too much wine, or if I'm dressed all fancy with my white elven shoes, then I say: Zuh-Tahn-Nuh.
I love that Mark Gruenwald predicted Batman leaving the Justice League due to his fellow heroes mind wiping their antagonists almost 20 years before Identity Crisis in the pages of Squadron Supreme.
Riddle me this! When is a Mark not a Mark? Ha haaaa!
@@c.j.thedude When he becomes a BOOK (by having his ashes mixed into the printing ink of the first edition paperbacks of Squadron Supreme)! Then a Mark becomes many, many marks!
@@jonathonriddle9922 Curses! Brilliant answer. 😃
1:18 - this channel is much too underrated xoxo
I'd like to hear some more of your opinions on the New 52. Great video!
Unfortunately her magic and the fire of Etrgan did not help against Doctor Manhattan , And here I was amazed at this
Funny thing is Batman was never above mindwiping villains.
Just before Identity crisis came out, in JLA (1997) #1-4 the Justice league had Martian manhunter lobotomize 70 martians to shapeshift and live as humans. Those martians had their memories altered and made to live as humans against thier will, doing jobs, having families with humans etc.
In Faces of Evil: Prometheus, Batman and MM turned the villain Prometheus into a vegetable and kept him like that for years.
As always wonderful and thanks! Youth can be as wasted on the young, as wisdom can be wasted on the aged/elderly. I would like to suggest comparison contrast on two movies “Mad Monster Party” with “Frosty The Snowman”. Your perspective would be DELICIOUS AND WONDROUS!
My friend the other night gave me the low down on Zatanna (their face character) because I knew nothing of her and the mind wipes eventually came up. My firm stance is "please no just noooo" if it had been executed even close to reasonably I'd be more on the fence but this but with how they did it we all the inconsistently as well as retconing Salina like, it's too sour for me. Make a choice and commit to it damn it! BUT ALSO MAKE SURE ITS WELL WRITTEN FOR CHIRST SAKE
One of my Favourite characters
Weirdly enough despite its flaws I still enjoy the Identity Crisis and it made me become a fan of Ralph Dibny.
Thanks for the breakdown. Love ur channel. DC for lyfe!
The main issue with the mind wipe, which I want to preface that I am not a fan of, being the use of magic to fix the plot holes, is the change of the character’s personality. Dr Light became a dufus after this episode. He lost his role as being a real threat and became a joke character. Batman on the other hand did not have his personality directly changed. The change was a result of what he perceived as a mental rape being perpetrated on him which I cannot fault him for feeling that way. With that said, I am a Zatanna fan, and I do find the idea that she could be addicted to magic as being compelling. I do like the current run where she learns and realizes that there is a cost to using magic.
12:30 "Why?... Because Zatana had the power to do that" So does J'ohn J'ones: Manhunter. Why not him in this storyline?
Arguably another one of the many plot holes in the infamous Identity Crisis. Very, very polarizing comic event. [x]
Two guesses: first, J'onn has an obvious code of honor against this kind of thing, He's always been portrayed as an honorable man, while Zatanna never got her personality well defined.
But the more probable reason is that at the time of the DL mindrape J'onn wasn't a JLA member, I think.
By the way, what's worse? the rape of the flesh or the rape of the mind? Something to think about.
@@sergioaccioly5219 I think every rape of the flesh is also a rape of the mind, it’s the mind rape what last longer that the physical damage.
I think she was there so that is that, and she needed some spotlight in more stories… I also find more believable magic can effectively erase memories that will stay that way.