Corrections: 1) Theranos did not go public. 2) a Greek person on The Drop Out Podast said that "Theranos" reminded him of death-associated Greek words.
@thievesarmy She did have the money from the investors and the money from the deal with Walgreens and LabCorp - she only made expenditures for employees salaries and second-hand medical equipment, which was what she really used to test the blood samples, rather than her "nanotainers" and "The Edison", (as far as I can tell)... right? (The billions from investors on top of her 250k salary to herself and the loan she made on her company). It seems she paid employees out of the deals with Walgreens, LabCorp and a few others and/or the income from actually testing blood - the results of which she was known to alter, as became public with the whistle blowers - plus she had her stocks and the income from publicity appearances, interviews with major news outlets and media, motivational speaking engagements like Tedtalks, the fundraisers she held and other PR. OH, her partner in the company/boyfriend also gave her several million; I heard it was 5 billion, but that seems like a lot, (then again, money is like water in Silicon valley - they take big risks for big rewards; it would probably amount to a slip on the taxes to some - she'd have made most of her expenditure tax write-offs - like her vehicle, (a black car with a driver sans plates just like Steve Jobs).
@thievesarmy SEC only fined her 500k.... I think they found out she did not make much. Boies alone held about 5 billion worth of share at the end of his service (forgot the source). She is not greed (i think) more like PRIDE
I knew Theranos was shady when her description of the way the blood test was conducted went like this: “A chemistry is performed so that a chemical reaction occurs and generates a signal from the chemical interaction with the sample, which is translated into a result, which is then reviewed by certified laboratory personnel.” Umm, what?
One thing always fascinates me about this sort of dark tetrad offender is, if they are often so isolated or asocial in their youth, how do they become so skilled at communicating and glib presenting styles as adults? Where and how do they learn the tricks?
How did she think she was gonna solve 10 problems all at once? It’s cause she didn’t stay in school long enough to even know the full scope of the ten problems.
A lot of problems Theranos could not overcome 10 years down the line were fundamental knowledge in medicine (different blood test is run under different strict conditions in order to get a reliable result, random blood dilution corrupts the result etc etc etc) Looking back, I wonder if she is embarrassed with all the boasting about dropping out of Stanford. I’m just thinking “yeah and it shows....”
She doesn't have technical knowledge to invent anything but just superficial concepts. Her first patent was a science fiction that got her seed money. Her bet was on the engineers she hired to make her vision happen. That was fine until she needed more fundings and resorted to deceptions to get more investments. As a child she showed creativity and high ambition. She designed a time machine with pictures and even control panel. She moved on to try to sell compiler to Chinese Universities in high school. I bet she made zero money from this but it made her look like a genius to others when telling her story. She probably has no real programming knowledge. Dropping out of Stanford with a patent pending approval for her blood diagnostic "invention" fit in this narrative that she was the next genius icon to start a new revolutionary company. Marketing was her biggest strength to me.
You brought up a good point...that Steve Jobs wasn't STEVE JOBS until he had a product. Ms. Holmes wanted to be Steve Jobs first and then come up with a product.
Jobs Was a sociopath and narcissist to the max. For example he didn't even want to acknowledge his own children. He was overwhelmingly controlling re products and employees. And romantic relationships!
@@rabbitwho It's really not accurate to compare Gates to Holmes. Gates and Paul Allen told people at a company called MITS that they were working on something, not that they had finished it. That was a lie, yes, but hardly comparable to the whopping lies Holmes constantly told. They had knowledge of coding and that they could do what they said they were trying to do with existing technology. They had that software running on an Altair computer fairly soon. Like a matter of weeks. Your description of Microsoft's start isn't true, either. They didn't ring up "a bunch of computer companies". They had a deal with MITS first, and by the time they made the deal to distribute the software, they had a working version and did an actual demonstration for them. It wasn't like Theranos' deal with Walgreens, where they weren't even close to having the tech working. If you're talking about the deal Gates' deal with IBM, they made a deal to create an OS. And they did. Again, totally different from what Holmes and Theranos did, claiming the tech existed when it did not and they weren't close to getting it working.
She lives a block from me in the Russian Hill neighborhood of San Francisco. I see her walking her dog and going to brunch which is kinda all she does these days. She’s apparently engaged to an heir of a hotel fortune.
Its my theory that the termination rate at Theranos was Holmes' way of eliminating people who were either getting too close to unraveling her secret or who had the potential to do so.
What I struggle with is the initial child like naivete and hubris to start a company based on a fantasy idea. Got to be an element of Dunning Kruger to think she could actually develop something requiring so many advancements. And then how do you sustain that for 12+ years? As a hyperbolic example I find it annoying how long it takes to cook a meal with all the chopping, peeling, different pots, etc. Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a machine that you could throw in ingredients (whole vegetables, slabs of meat, etc, etc) and from a touch screen preset of options it would appropriately boil, bake, roast all of them and serve on a plate. (And then of course a cycle where you add detergent and it washes all the internal components) I can see in my minds eye a metal box about the size of a small fridge that will cost $1049 retail. Minor glitch I have no idea what any of the internal components would be or how to make them work. Still makes sense for me to quit my job and start hitting up investors though, right?
We have a terrible system. A ridiculous system & you better know it only matters who has the most money to afford the the best lawyers. It is a system that will destroy lives of innocent, & reward the evil.
The biggest red flag for me was not only the seeming lack of research, but Holmes' lack of education and research experience. Not that she's not a smart person, but she's not some super genius kid who completed her PhD at 20ish. She dropped out of her Bachelor's program, very likely before participating in research experience. That also points to grandiosity to me: I'm smarter than all of these other people with PhD's who have been researching for decades and decades..... Ok, Holmesie.... Ok...
Yeah, it's called a bubble. This is the mania phase. Remember pets.com? During the dotcom bubble? It's baaaaaack. They call it chewy.com or something. I'm hunkering down in non silicon valley companies with no debt contributing actual value. (You know.... with profits?)
When one of the lead biochemist, Ian Gibbons at Theranos commited sucide due the work stress at Theranos. His wife called Holmes to report his death, but Holmes never answered. His wife later got an email from theranos' laywers asking for his company laptop and any work files to be returned immediately.
Was such a callous and horrible move on Holmes's part. Proves she's a monster. To not even call the grieving widow, bring her some flowers, offer something financial for funeral expenses or SOMETHING?! You don't even contact her other than through your subordinates just to get his paperwork back?! Really?! That is precisely the part of the story where I auto switch to "fuck her" mode.
@@tarvisbickler3787 But you can criticise the lack of empathy and feeling towards the widow of a former important employee who has just committed suicide.
Talk about a grandiose sense of self! She had bulletproof glass in her office, two personal drivers, four armed bodyguards and two personal assistants. She pitched a fit when they took these away away from her at the end.
A big reason that she was able to get away with this for so long is that we are not educated about personality disorders. We do not recognize pathological narcissism, or we approve of it past where we should. Also, for people with healthy empathy this is so hard for us to believe. We think we are going t recognize bad people. We think we will know better. This type of person is destroying lives every day in a much less public way--- undermining healthy relationships, sabotaging careers, poisoning whole communities, tearing apart families, and destroying lives. We have a collective misunderstanding of what or who psychopaths are. We expect psychopaths to be like Dahmer or to be in jail not to be our own dead beat dads, abusive bosses, or nightmare ex's, and sadly therapy more often than not will lead us off in the wrong direction, blaming the victim and making the abuser even more effective. .
We should teach about abusive behaviors instead of making it about certain disorders. People put up with way too much and that’s how people like her do what they do. Regardless of her potential diagnosis.
yes yes yes, I met a nast psychologist like this... not in a mill years you'd expect this they get away with a lot destroying lives not feeling any remorse because in their twisted mind they don't do harm but are like a god.
Yes yes yes something needs to be done. Some of us (me) are in such denial about these people & we ignore our own feelings to give the benefit of the doubt, over and over and over. I know it’s my fault & I need to take responsibility but what & who can you believe? If the ones that can’t be trusted will swear on their own children’s lives (yes children’s - no exaggeration here) that they’re genuine. The realisation that you cannot trust your own judgement as a 33 year old woman is terrifying, to say the very least.
She thrived because other psychopaths gave her money and turned the other way. Many of her employees knew she was a fraud and tried to bring it up to her, but ultimately saw the problems and left. They knew she was abusive and a fraud.
She conned a bunch of rich people😆 how embarrassing for them that they were so gullible and no one knew how to Do proper due diligence before they forked over millions
I'd disagree about parasitic lifestyle. She worked a lot, but the work was all about extracting money from infatuated investors and keeping the charade of doing science and making things going. And what did she produce? Call me very old fashioned, but isn't there usually a product first, then a company? Not much is known about her family life, but her father was a vice president at Enron. Is fraud genetic?
Right, she gave no real work - she only worked by manipulating other people into giving her money. That sounds like a parasitic person to me. My guess is being raised by someone willing to commit fraud might effect your view on life but who’s to say if it’s nature or nurture?
I know lot of people who struggled for 4 to 6 years to make it with their startups, but Elizabeth is different. She lied for 12 years, she was not struggling to create a working device but just living in a lie for 12 years.... 12 years is a lot of time.
I remember I was looking for a job as a chemist in SF bay area around 2012 and I looked up Theranos on Glassdoor. I actually applied for a job but never heard back from them. Most of the reviews on Glassdoor seemed very negative in particular about company paranoia and how lawyers and management seemed to intimidate employees, threaten to fire them if it was found that they were looking for another job. Glad I never went there and found a job elsewhere. Also see: fortune.com/2019/02/21/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-redemption/
It seems like she was just obsessed with greatness and wanting admiration. From the start, she just wanted to create a revolutionary product to be forever admired, etc. She never gave a shit about people lives.
Cluster B personality disorders are sometimes difficult to tell apart because they have a lot of overlapping traits. But she definitely has something. First of all, she is hopelessly delusional. I think it's the main reason why she was so successful in convincing others of her "brilliant" idea - she genuinely believed it herself. Just like a child playing make-believe with other little children, she only saw the superficial qualities of a successful entrepreneur, like big investors, shiny offices, media attention, the idea to "change the world" etc., and she tried to imitate them, but not the actual work that goes into inventing a working product. Which is the whole point. But she only saw the buzz and the "success", and thought the product would somehow materialize by itself out of all this (again, a child's thinking - children don't understand complicated concepts and only mimic what they can see). The fact that she doesn't exhibit any signs of remorse or shame, AND is talking about opening a new company, is the best proof of how delusional she is. In that way she's exactly the same as the "fake German heiress" Anna Sorokin (aka Delvey) who scammed people in New York. She also seems to be delusional and had this grand plan for a huge project, which was a total fantasy with no roots in reality. She's likely to get a similar prison sentence as Holmes. I've actually met a person once who I'm sure had a narcissistic personality disorder. He had the same eyes - huge, seldom blinking, with this very intense, creepy stare. Anyone who has come across a narcissist or a psychopath knows about "the stare". That fake voice that Holmes did was ridiculous, I don't know how people could take her seriously when she talked like that. Same with the whole copying Steve Jobs business - it was downright comical. Personality disorders are interesting because many people can't see the red flags even when the person in question has something fundamentally wrong with their mind.
So accurate. The Narc Stare. Her separation of the Department's communication is a classic Narcissistic Behavior. They never want one person to know the lies that they told to another person. They present the façade, and they take great pains to make sure you and everyone else believes in it. As soon as you get to talk to anyone else involved, the façade crumbles.
You’re not describing delusions. You’re describing her grandiosity and associated anosognosia. There is no evidence that Holmes harboured delusions in the clinical since because she engaged in compulsive behaviours designed to conceal her deceit. The act of concealment meant she knew she was lying. From the outside looking in, it may seem as though she believed her own lies but the fact that she actively sought to hide and conceal her deception betrays this point.
I watched her at some point in the beginning explaining her product. I knew by watching her and simply listening to her that she was full of crap. How could people supposedly with experience and a brain believe such nonsense? It boggles my mind.
What boggles my mind is how many political and Silicone Valley A-listers were on board? How did this happen? Most people who don't know how these operations work see A-listers and believe that it must be "real." And none of the A-listers were PhD researchers at MIT. She got all kinds of awards and accolades before the age of 30? My 2nd question was how could she do all this without at least a graduate degree? What experience has she had in the industry?-Zero, you say....then how can one girl run something like this?
Never heard that - and doubt it. Can you provide a link or other cite? "Sherron S. Watkins - is remembered for the letter she wrote as a company vice president in August 2001 to Mr. Lay, describing improper accounting practices at Enron. Months later, Enron collapsed."
Given the tens of thousands of blood tests that were performed and the indemic flaws in Theranos' testing processes, its a statistical inevitability that someone went undiagnosed with a serious illness. Furthermore, its a virtual certainty that someone died as a result of Theranos' inadequate laboratory procedures, which, in my opinion, constitutes criminal negligence at best and depraved indifference at worst. In "The Inventor: Out For Blood In Silicon Valley", a phlebotomist who was responsible for Syphilis testing told interviewers that approximately 30% of the tests generated false negatives (meaning to say that 30 % of those who used Theranos blood testing systems were being told that there was nothing wrong with them when, in fact, they had Syphilis). Now, I'm no medical doctor, but I do know that Syphilis, if untreated, does permanent physiological damage, include brain damage, sexually impotency and paralysis and can result in death. Furthermore, Syphilis is transmittable, so God only knows how many innocent people were infected unwittingly by Syphilis carriers because the later's medical condition went undetected.
They commited suicide. Her mess ups and false readings of lab work was worse then the actual real life diagnosis. I want her to just go away. She ruined my life
a man was reported to have had tests ran by Theranos and he was told his results were normal and he was healthy, so he did not seek medical attention and a month later he suffered a heart attack. Dr. Sanjay Gupta brought it up to Holmes in an interview and as always she danced around and never acknowledged any fault
It's like if I said, "I want to make a drink that can make people fly", but (obviously) had no way to create it. Then, people gave me MILLIONS of dollars to hire a team to create that drink, instead of laughing at me.
I agree with Berto that we seem to have remained a bit stuck in the past with the labeling of 'true crimes' like poor people crimes or lower class people crimes. Elizabeth and people from her intellectual level have a whole another classification of mischievous behavior different from the typical classic psychopath ....I mean she was all those bad things but stupid she was not :)
Just to play devil's advocate here but what if there's a level of mental disorder as well as the personality disorder. The Hare Psychopathy Checklist gauges where individuals fall on the spectrum of psychopathy. Even "normal or good" people have some of the characteristics. The psychopath has both a lack of empathy and a large number of the traits on the list. I do think she does show a lack of empathy and some of the traits but not enough to be considered a psychopath. She might be considered to have psychopathic tendencies or a proclivity to psycopathy but moreso I see a level of delusional beliefs and delusion thinking that leans towards the fragmented mind of those suffering from delusional disorders. Delusional disorders can manifest irritable and explosive behaviours as well as the flat affect and lack of empathy that can be interpreted as psychopathic. It's possible she's suffering more from delusional disorder and a comorbidity of psychopathic tendencies. Ironically enough, it would seem that some level of a combination of those personality traits and psychological disorders paired with a high drive for success might produce the executive types with the delusional beliefs that they can obtain the positions they do and have the necessary behaviors to climb over others to do so.
I don’t know how aaaannnyyone thought this would work. My mom was diabetic and if she didn’t give enough blood on her stick, she wouldn’t get a clear reading.... I imagine the blood amount they put in those little pods was about the same
George Schultz was one of the older men who believed in her. He had a long career in government positions under 3 different administrations as well as academia. His grandson, Tyler is in the new HBO documentary about her.
As our country is going so dysfunctional, it is a breath of fresh air to hearing a couple of young folks having a sensible and serious debate about real issues in our governments and societies. You are right about our stock market is not the capitalism in its true sense but totally manipulated. You are also right about our legal system is so very flawed. Hope there are more young folks out there are paying attention and getting involved for the greater good of the people, for the people and by the people. Thank you for sharing.
lol blood is mostly water. I hypothesize if the patient turns his arm in a circle for 10 min as the blood is mixed in the arms there would be more viable information in the vial of blood lmao
I have a co-founder who's exactly like this. I already left her as it was getting toxic. But it's disturbing hearing this and associating most of the items in the list with her.
The other day I was driving my Dad to the doctor and I seen a group of Harry Krishnas on the. side of the road protesting male circumcision. I think those are 2 good subjects for a podcast.
Reminds me of that Kevin Costner Movie. Field of Dreams. ‘If you built it, they will come’. Faking it hoping to be making it...but the making part just never came to fruition. I just know I would have fall like a bag of bricks for her scam, because I just want medical test to be so easy.
I'd say sociopathic. She always discarded people once she deemed them to be either a threat or of no use to her. No one was safe, not even her COO lover.
Great podcast ! Well done ! One important motive was investors and even society wanted to be part of such a huge thing that was change history, break paradigmas and all got blind including herself. Until now she guess she has done something huge, very megalomanic. Regards from Denmark
I can’t help thinking that there may be a gender difference in how psychopathic behaviour is manifested eg. female psychopaths tend to exhibit more relational aggression and tend toward less violent forms of offending, with a propensity toward fraud. www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14999013.2016.1138173?journalCode=ufmh20 Perhaps when assessing them we need to be aware that behavioural manifestations of traits may be different.
She was just a spolit little girl who was never told no stf up ad that continued through adulthood...and she didnt go to jail...so she got away with it.
re: "and she didnt go to jail" So far - I don't know where the case against her stands, but I'm pretty sure she and Sunny are facing trial going forward ...
Her face during the trial was impressive. I mean she looked like a little girl who had to wake up from all bullshit she said to people for more than 12 years.
Oh she WAS told no, originally at Stanford. She went to a professor of medicine who considered an expert in this kind of thing, and she told her flat-out, that her original idea wouldn’t work. The company was founded upon Elizabeth’s original patent, I believe, and she went off at Stanford and found a guy who WOULD say yes. He later quit his tenureship at Stanford and went to work for her at Theranos bc he truly believed she was onto something revolutionary (the skin patch). I’ve been watching several docs here on UA-cam, and it’s just stunning the amount of people she bulldozed and stepped over to get what she wanted.
Whats the go with her saying she's an engineer? I thought you had to be at Uni for far longer than 19years old to become an actual engineer? No one is saying anything about this so is this one thing that's true? I'd assume that if she wasn't an engineer as she claims that this would have been an issue at the front of false claims by EH...The book never said anything about her claims about being an engineer nor do the documentaries
She quite literally looks like the female version of Mark Zuckerberg, if that mans put in a wig idk if We’d be able to tell the difference😂😂 his chin is a bit longer than hers tho
I enjoyed watching this video so much that I searched your channel to find your take on the movie Hereditary. I'm surprised you didn't make one given the subject matter of the movie. Please watch the movie and if your able make a vid. There is so much to do and a reason why so many have mixed feelings on the movie.
I'm not sure you have to be a psychopath to do stuff like this. I have a formerly wealthy relative who's always lying and manipulating people, I just think that's how the rich get rich to be honest. One important categorisation of psychopaths is that they are outliers. That they are somehow exemplary or contrary to social or moral norms, and I don't think a con artist in Silicon Valley is all that contrary to Silicon Valley. The place itself used to be dedicated to aerospace development and military contractors. Many of whom lobbied for very meaningless and terrible wars just to enrich themselves. None of them were outliers either, they were typical citizens. Whole point of an exploitative system is to make sure you don't have to be a psychopath to commit immoral acts. And she seems like yet another drop in the ocean. Podcast also mentions Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. Steve was known for his countless labour abuses, and would often swindle his engineering team and steal credit for stuff he didn't do. Elon Musk is a Boer emerald lord who got most of his starting capital from the apartheid aristocracy, who killed countless of millions of African second class citizens. He built his conglomerate on the African equivalent of Nazi gold, and once again we see a guy who constantly steals credit, bullies people on social media, and have endangered autoworkers' lives because he thought that safety tape ''looked ugly.'' I just think rich people are really sheltered from the consequences of their actions, and probably believe they are very moral people in spite of it all. EDIT: Also, small nitpick, the Hamburg Stock Exchange was founded in 1558 and at that point pretty much sponsored and funded the slave trade. One and a half centuries later and we got the industrial revolution as a result of the economic developments of slave baronry and investment economics. Sorry to say it, but capitalism was just as crooked at its inception. Capital is not simply owning a business, or producing goods, or selling stuff, that's existed almost a millennia prior in mercantilism. Capitalism is about economic institutions or means that can make money for you without you having to work. So instead of working at a business, you *own* a business. The reason why so many venture capitalists are dishonest leeches is just because that's kind of their job, and capitalism hasn't gotten worse over time. It's always been like this, and it's really just the nobility adjusting to the abolition of blood purity and eugenics in an effort to become aristocrats. If you just engage in the economy, or trade, or participate in a market, then you're not a capitalist. If you collect dividends from a thousand people who do those things for you, *then* you're a capitalist.
@@YanaNova Hey, I think it displays a level of arrogance to think that people would accept her voice as authentic. (This is just my impression; when watching videos of her, it sounds like she's putting on that voice.) It's a part of the puzzle of behaviors Elizabeth exhibits, that make her i.m.h.o., dangerous.
I've just listened to her voice and I don't find it strange at all. Cultural? I know in Japan many women speak with high-pitched voices, perhaps that is the case in the US as well? I come from and have lived most of my life in central Europe, do other European find her voice that strange, too?
People love secrets. Just ask anyone; "Do you want to know a secret" and you will have their undivided attention. That fact can easily be used to manipulate people. Secrets are also the most powerful marketing tool I have ever seen.
Besides the formulation and dis- information of this company,(which seems to be common in a lot of corporate structures) why hasn't anyone even question why the hell are they trying to get your DNA one way or another. (Have you sent in your DNA for ancestry test yet?) Rest my point..
Corrections: 1) Theranos did not go public. 2) a Greek person on The Drop Out Podast said that "Theranos" reminded him of death-associated Greek words.
Thanatos is Greek for death. I thought it was a funny name for a med company, for that reason...
What about the psychology of people who make excuses for frauds and liars like her?
Scott Humphreys That’s a good question
@thievesarmy She did have the money from the investors and the money from the deal with Walgreens and LabCorp - she only made expenditures for employees salaries and second-hand medical equipment, which was what she really used to test the blood samples, rather than her "nanotainers" and "The Edison", (as far as I can tell)... right? (The billions from investors on top of her 250k salary to herself and the loan she made on her company).
It seems she paid employees out of the deals with Walgreens, LabCorp and a few others and/or the income from actually testing blood - the results of which she was known to alter, as became public with the whistle blowers - plus she had her stocks and the income from publicity appearances, interviews with major news outlets and media, motivational speaking engagements like Tedtalks, the fundraisers she held and other PR.
OH, her partner in the company/boyfriend also gave her several million; I heard it was 5 billion, but that seems like a lot, (then again, money is like water in Silicon valley - they take big risks for big rewards; it would probably amount to a slip on the taxes to some - she'd have made most of her expenditure tax write-offs - like her vehicle, (a black car with a driver sans plates just like Steve Jobs).
@thievesarmy SEC only fined her 500k.... I think they found out she did not make much. Boies alone held about 5 billion worth of share at the end of his service (forgot the source). She is not greed (i think) more like PRIDE
I knew Theranos was shady when her description of the way the blood test was conducted went like this:
“A chemistry is performed so that a chemical reaction occurs and generates a signal from the chemical interaction with the sample, which is translated into a result, which is then reviewed by certified laboratory personnel.”
Umm, what?
One thing always fascinates me about this sort of dark tetrad offender is, if they are often so isolated or asocial in their youth, how do they become so skilled at communicating and glib presenting styles as adults? Where and how do they learn the tricks?
How did she think she was gonna solve 10 problems all at once? It’s cause she didn’t stay in school long enough to even know the full scope of the ten problems.
A lot of problems Theranos could not overcome 10 years down the line were fundamental knowledge in medicine (different blood test is run under different strict conditions in order to get a reliable result, random blood dilution corrupts the result etc etc etc)
Looking back, I wonder if she is embarrassed with all the boasting about dropping out of Stanford. I’m just thinking “yeah and it shows....”
She doesn't have technical knowledge to invent anything but just superficial concepts. Her first patent was a science fiction that got her seed money. Her bet was on the engineers she hired to make her vision happen. That was fine until she needed more fundings and resorted to deceptions to get more investments.
As a child she showed creativity and high ambition. She designed a time machine with pictures and even control panel. She moved on to try to sell compiler to Chinese Universities in high school. I bet she made zero money from this but it made her look like a genius to others when telling her story. She probably has no real programming knowledge. Dropping out of Stanford with a patent pending approval for her blood diagnostic "invention" fit in this narrative that she was the next genius icon to start a new revolutionary company. Marketing was her biggest strength to me.
You brought up a good point...that Steve Jobs wasn't STEVE JOBS until he had a product. Ms. Holmes wanted to be Steve Jobs first and then come up with a product.
Jobs Was a sociopath and narcissist to the max. For example he didn't even want to acknowledge his own children.
He was overwhelmingly controlling re products and employees. And romantic relationships!
Jobs was even obsessed with his diet. Using narcotics and eating only fruits lol
I agree. It's a different dynamic. The question is, who if anyone was Steve jobs emulating? Edison? Or was he on his own?
@@sdidora5 OP didn't say Jobs was some kind of great guy!
@@rabbitwho It's really not accurate to compare Gates to Holmes. Gates and Paul Allen told people at a company called MITS that they were working on something, not that they had finished it. That was a lie, yes, but hardly comparable to the whopping lies Holmes constantly told. They had knowledge of coding and that they could do what they said they were trying to do with existing technology. They had that software running on an Altair computer fairly soon. Like a matter of weeks.
Your description of Microsoft's start isn't true, either. They didn't ring up "a bunch of computer companies". They had a deal with MITS first, and by the time they made the deal to distribute the software, they had a working version and did an actual demonstration for them. It wasn't like Theranos' deal with Walgreens, where they weren't even close to having the tech working.
If you're talking about the deal Gates' deal with IBM, they made a deal to create an OS. And they did. Again, totally different from what Holmes and Theranos did, claiming the tech existed when it did not and they weren't close to getting it working.
She lives a block from me in the Russian Hill neighborhood of San Francisco. I see her walking her dog and going to brunch which is kinda all she does these days. She’s apparently engaged to an heir of a hotel fortune.
P L that's creepy
Parasitic behavior.
She was trying to start another company. Not sure where that's at. www.businessinsider.com/theranos-founder-elizabeth-holmes-new-startup-report-2018-6
Its my theory that the termination rate at Theranos was Holmes' way of eliminating people who were either getting too close to unraveling her secret or who had the potential to do so.
wow it's crazy how she consciously does this while subconsciously she believes in theranos
Exactly.
Pretty much this. People who live a delusion this strong can't allow people to remain around them who could attempt to undermine that delusion.
@@alekseiangell4886 lol undermine delusion with logic. It's for that reason I truly hope she gets the full 20 yr sentence.
Aleksei Angell there was no delusion. She eliminated those people, like you said, for secondary gain to protect her secret.
I find the whole Theranos screw up so endlessly fascinating. Carryrou's book is just full of people and anecdotes that just made my jaw hit the floor.
IKR??? I couldn't put the book down.
Walgreen's hiring a medical expert to look into the company and then ignoring him when he said there are big problems might be my favorite.
What I struggle with is the initial child like naivete and hubris to start a company based on a fantasy idea. Got to be an element of Dunning Kruger to think she could actually develop something requiring so many advancements. And then how do you sustain that for 12+ years?
As a hyperbolic example I find it annoying how long it takes to cook a meal with all the chopping, peeling, different pots, etc. Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a machine that you could throw in ingredients (whole vegetables, slabs of meat, etc, etc) and from a touch screen preset of options it would appropriately boil, bake, roast all of them and serve on a plate. (And then of course a cycle where you add detergent and it washes all the internal components) I can see in my minds eye a metal box about the size of a small fridge that will cost $1049 retail.
Minor glitch I have no idea what any of the internal components would be or how to make them work.
Still makes sense for me to quit my job and start hitting up investors though, right?
If she gets anything less than 20 years in prison we really have a problem with our system....
jmreidfo she won’t. She’s not brown and has money.
We have a terrible system. A ridiculous system & you better know it only matters who has the most money to afford the the best lawyers. It is a system that will destroy lives of innocent, & reward the evil.
Disruptive just means something that interrupts the status quo of an industry.
The biggest red flag for me was not only the seeming lack of research, but Holmes' lack of education and research experience. Not that she's not a smart person, but she's not some super genius kid who completed her PhD at 20ish. She dropped out of her Bachelor's program, very likely before participating in research experience. That also points to grandiosity to me: I'm smarter than all of these other people with PhD's who have been researching for decades and decades..... Ok, Holmesie.... Ok...
Actually, she did a great service to all of us (unknowingly). We should all be aware that this goes on A LOT!
Yeah, it's called a bubble. This is the mania phase. Remember pets.com? During the dotcom bubble? It's baaaaaack. They call it chewy.com or something. I'm hunkering down in non silicon valley companies with no debt contributing actual value. (You know.... with profits?)
@Bob Loblaw yes Theranos Saga made Silicon Valley people involved look stupid as much as the characters of jersey shore tv series
When one of the lead biochemist, Ian Gibbons at Theranos commited sucide due the work stress at Theranos. His wife called Holmes to report his death, but Holmes never answered. His wife later got an email from theranos' laywers asking for his company laptop and any work files to be returned immediately.
😠😠😠
Was such a callous and horrible move on Holmes's part. Proves she's a monster. To not even call the grieving widow, bring her some flowers, offer something financial for funeral expenses or SOMETHING?! You don't even contact her other than through your subordinates just to get his paperwork back?! Really?! That is precisely the part of the story where I auto switch to "fuck her" mode.
Suicide is a personal choice, you do not know why it happened and cannot assign blame, even to a fraudulent entity like theranos.
@@tarvisbickler3787 But you can criticise the lack of empathy and feeling towards the widow of a former important employee who has just committed suicide.
@@tarvisbickler3787 . Compassion costs nothing.
Talk about a grandiose sense of self! She had bulletproof glass in her office, two personal drivers, four armed bodyguards and two personal assistants. She pitched a fit when they took these away away from her at the end.
A big reason that she was able to get away with this for so long is that we are not educated about personality disorders. We do not recognize pathological narcissism, or we approve of it past where we should. Also, for people with healthy empathy this is so hard for us to believe. We think we are going t recognize bad people. We think we will know better. This type of person is destroying lives every day in a much less public way--- undermining healthy relationships, sabotaging careers, poisoning whole communities, tearing apart families, and destroying lives. We have a collective misunderstanding of what or who psychopaths are. We expect psychopaths to be like Dahmer or to be in jail not to be our own dead beat dads, abusive bosses, or nightmare ex's, and sadly therapy more often than not will lead us off in the wrong direction, blaming the victim and making the abuser even more effective. .
We should teach about abusive behaviors instead of making it about certain disorders. People put up with way too much and that’s how people like her do what they do. Regardless of her potential diagnosis.
yes yes yes, I met a nast psychologist like this... not in a mill years you'd expect this they get away with a lot destroying lives not feeling any remorse because in their twisted mind they don't do harm but are like a god.
Yes yes yes something needs to be done. Some of us (me) are in such denial about these people & we ignore our own feelings to give the benefit of the doubt, over and over and over. I know it’s my fault & I need to take responsibility but what & who can you believe? If the ones that can’t be trusted will swear on their own children’s lives (yes children’s - no exaggeration here) that they’re genuine. The realisation that you cannot trust your own judgement as a 33 year old woman is terrifying, to say the very least.
She thrived because other psychopaths gave her money and turned the other way. Many of her employees knew she was a fraud and tried to bring it up to her, but ultimately saw the problems and left. They knew she was abusive and a fraud.
She conned a bunch of rich people😆 how embarrassing for them that they were so gullible and no one knew how to Do proper due diligence before they forked over millions
Yeah, you should probably be wary of a business plan that requires multiple Nobel-prize-winning advances.
"I invented Post-its".
Anonymer Benutzer send me some!
ha I used to love that movie!
Many witnesses have said her voice was much higher in tone/pitch and that the deep tone tone they heard from her was a facade and not natural
14:20 Theranos never went public, it was always a privately held company
Yeah. My mistake. Thanks!
Wish is the father of thought. The Kool-Aid she promised sounded so delicious, investors lined up to drink it.
I am still upset about lying and I am approaching 6 decades on this planet. We all do it, at different levels. Great podcast.
I'd disagree about parasitic lifestyle. She worked a lot, but the work was all about extracting money from infatuated investors and keeping the charade of doing science and making things going. And what did she produce? Call me very old fashioned, but isn't there usually a product first, then a company? Not much is known about her family life, but her father was a vice president at Enron. Is fraud genetic?
Flora Posteschild she wanted fame
re: "but her father as was a vice president at Enron"
Cite?
uploadJ Wikipedia
Right, she gave no real work - she only worked by manipulating other people into giving her money. That sounds like a parasitic person to me.
My guess is being raised by someone willing to commit fraud might effect your view on life but who’s to say if it’s nature or nurture?
No, but certainly you learn your ethical code from your family, so there's that.
I know lot of people who struggled for 4 to 6 years to make it with their startups, but Elizabeth is different. She lied for 12 years, she was not struggling to create a working device but just living in a lie for 12 years.... 12 years is a lot of time.
you forgot to mention Ian Gibbons when talking about Elizabeth's lack of empathy, that was a prime example
Among other things, this is a story as old as time...of a smart woman with hypnotic power over greedy, horny rich old men.
I invented UA-cam.
As bad as you think she is... she's alot worse.
Theranos sounds like something out of a Bond movie. The evil organization out to conquer the world that Bond takes on.
Yes, she changed her voice. Guys I love if you research deeply when you are going to talk about something. If not, you loose credibility.
I remember I was looking for a job as a chemist in SF bay area around 2012 and I looked up Theranos on Glassdoor. I actually applied for a job but never heard back from them. Most of the reviews on Glassdoor seemed very negative in particular about company paranoia and how lawyers and management seemed to intimidate employees, threaten to fire them if it was found that they were looking for another job. Glad I never went there and found a job elsewhere. Also see: fortune.com/2019/02/21/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-redemption/
me too - patent attorney. I'm glad, there would have been the potential for losing my law license!
I think she's a "cocktail psychopath." It's a mix of psychopathic traits mixed with Aspergers.
Nancy Vega wow I never heard of this cool terminology 😀👍🏻
It seems like she was just obsessed with greatness and wanting admiration. From the start, she just wanted to create a revolutionary product to be forever admired, etc. She never gave a shit about people lives.
Psychology in Seattle? I'm listening.
Frasier?!
Ruple Thaker It might be a Sleepless in Seattle reference.
Dr. Honda saying "you boob" is the most savage thing I've heard all week
Cluster B personality disorders are sometimes difficult to tell apart because they have a lot of overlapping traits. But she definitely has something. First of all, she is hopelessly delusional. I think it's the main reason why she was so successful in convincing others of her "brilliant" idea - she genuinely believed it herself. Just like a child playing make-believe with other little children, she only saw the superficial qualities of a successful entrepreneur, like big investors, shiny offices, media attention, the idea to "change the world" etc., and she tried to imitate them, but not the actual work that goes into inventing a working product. Which is the whole point. But she only saw the buzz and the "success", and thought the product would somehow materialize by itself out of all this (again, a child's thinking - children don't understand complicated concepts and only mimic what they can see).
The fact that she doesn't exhibit any signs of remorse or shame, AND is talking about opening a new company, is the best proof of how delusional she is. In that way she's exactly the same as the "fake German heiress" Anna Sorokin (aka Delvey) who scammed people in New York. She also seems to be delusional and had this grand plan for a huge project, which was a total fantasy with no roots in reality. She's likely to get a similar prison sentence as Holmes.
I've actually met a person once who I'm sure had a narcissistic personality disorder. He had the same eyes - huge, seldom blinking, with this very intense, creepy stare. Anyone who has come across a narcissist or a psychopath knows about "the stare". That fake voice that Holmes did was ridiculous, I don't know how people could take her seriously when she talked like that. Same with the whole copying Steve Jobs business - it was downright comical. Personality disorders are interesting because many people can't see the red flags even when the person in question has something fundamentally wrong with their mind.
So accurate. The Narc Stare. Her separation of the Department's communication is a classic Narcissistic Behavior. They never want one person to know the lies that they told to another person. They present the façade, and they take great pains to make sure you and everyone else believes in it. As soon as you get to talk to anyone else involved, the façade crumbles.
You’re not describing delusions. You’re describing her grandiosity and associated anosognosia. There is no evidence that Holmes harboured delusions in the clinical since because she engaged in compulsive behaviours designed to conceal her deceit. The act of concealment meant she knew she was lying. From the outside looking in, it may seem as though she believed her own lies but the fact that she actively sought to hide and conceal her deception betrays this point.
I watched her at some point in the beginning explaining her product. I knew by watching her and simply listening to her that she was full of crap.
How could people supposedly with experience and a brain believe such nonsense? It boggles my mind.
What boggles my mind is how many political and Silicone Valley A-listers were on board?
How did this happen? Most people who don't know how these operations work see A-listers and believe that it must be "real." And none of the A-listers were PhD researchers at MIT.
She got all kinds of awards and accolades before the age of 30?
My 2nd question was how could she do all this without at least a graduate degree? What experience has she had in the industry?-Zero, you say....then how can one girl run something like this?
Hi i would be interested in your impressions and analysis of Angelina Jolie..
Lol talking about narcissist!
@@sdidora5And a talentless one at that!
Funny you mention Enron... Her daddy was V.P. of Enron.
Really? Interesting. And an another question. Do you know by any chance what's her/family's faith?
Never heard that - and doubt it. Can you provide a link or other cite?
"Sherron S. Watkins - is remembered for the letter she wrote as a company vice president in August 2001 to Mr. Lay, describing improper accounting practices at Enron. Months later, Enron collapsed."
I’ve heard that as well! I think it was in the NBC documentary
@@uploadJ it's true, you can just Google it.
Did her father Christian Holmes go to prison? I'm not finding much.
Theratos = "monster" in Greek. It sounds so much like "theranos" to me
I wonder if anyone suffered from an undiagnosed serious illness due to having their blood drawn this way.
Given the tens of thousands of blood tests that were performed and the indemic flaws in Theranos' testing processes, its a statistical inevitability that someone went undiagnosed with a serious illness. Furthermore, its a virtual certainty that someone died as a result of Theranos' inadequate laboratory procedures, which, in my opinion, constitutes criminal negligence at best and depraved indifference at worst. In "The Inventor: Out For Blood In Silicon Valley", a phlebotomist who was responsible for Syphilis testing told interviewers that approximately 30% of the tests generated false negatives (meaning to say that 30 % of those who used Theranos blood testing systems were being told that there was nothing wrong with them when, in fact, they had Syphilis). Now, I'm no medical doctor, but I do know that Syphilis, if untreated, does permanent physiological damage, include brain damage, sexually impotency and paralysis and can result in death. Furthermore, Syphilis is transmittable, so God only knows how many innocent people were infected unwittingly by Syphilis carriers because the later's medical condition went undetected.
They commited suicide. Her mess ups and false readings of lab work was worse then the actual real life diagnosis. I want her to just go away.
She ruined my life
a man was reported to have had tests ran by Theranos and he was told his results were normal and he was healthy, so he did not seek medical attention and a month later he suffered a heart attack. Dr. Sanjay Gupta brought it up to Holmes in an interview and as always she danced around and never acknowledged any fault
It's like if I said, "I want to make a drink that can make people fly", but (obviously) had no way to create it. Then, people gave me MILLIONS of dollars to hire a team to create that drink, instead of laughing at me.
Tammy Stephens Yes, this is the way of deception. Men are attracted to looks, so she with her huge eyes... got them pay for it haha 😂
And what about the scientist who commited a suicide after being fired? You didn't mentioned him.
If Bernie Madoff were obsessed with Steve Jobs, you’d have Elizabeth Holmes.
Ernie Holmes...
Im always fascinated by con artists And the devastation that they create. She shd b featured on American Greed
she and Billy McFarland should get together
I think she's a narcissistic sociopath
You got some information wrong...but still interesting listening
I agree with Berto that we seem to have remained a bit stuck in the past with the labeling of 'true crimes' like poor people crimes or lower class people crimes. Elizabeth and people from her intellectual level have a whole another classification of mischievous behavior different from the typical classic psychopath ....I mean she was all those bad things but stupid she was not :)
1:21:32 Bill Cosby would have probably been a more apt comparison. It isn't that deep with R. Kelly, people just like his music.
Just to play devil's advocate here but what if there's a level of mental disorder as well as the personality disorder. The Hare Psychopathy Checklist gauges where individuals fall on the spectrum of psychopathy. Even "normal or good" people have some of the characteristics. The psychopath has both a lack of empathy and a large number of the traits on the list. I do think she does show a lack of empathy and some of the traits but not enough to be considered a psychopath. She might be considered to have psychopathic tendencies or a proclivity to psycopathy but moreso I see a level of delusional beliefs and delusion thinking that leans towards the fragmented mind of those suffering from delusional disorders. Delusional disorders can manifest irritable and explosive behaviours as well as the flat affect and lack of empathy that can be interpreted as psychopathic. It's possible she's suffering more from delusional disorder and a comorbidity of psychopathic tendencies. Ironically enough, it would seem that some level of a combination of those personality traits and psychological disorders paired with a high drive for success might produce the executive types with the delusional beliefs that they can obtain the positions they do and have the necessary behaviors to climb over others to do so.
Typical criminal versatility has reach a new level of sick sophistication, pathological lying and fraud while using a suit from Neiman Marcus.
Nancy Vega Well said, Nancy!
First I've listened to you guys. Enjoyed the thoughts and analysis of the enigma of Elizabeth Holmes and this behaviour in culture.
Thanks, Tim! You're a breath of fresh air in a room full of mean UA-camrs who send hate mail.
I'm sure there's an American Greed episode being made on Holmes and her scam.
“It’s not fucking disruptive” Lol I love people who cuss. Trust them so much more 😂 seeing ur personality with ur friend is funny
Covert narcissist every day 👍
I don’t know how aaaannnyyone thought this would work. My mom was diabetic and if she didn’t give enough blood on her stick, she wouldn’t get a clear reading.... I imagine the blood amount they put in those little pods was about the same
Jessica Gomez the thing is we tend to believe technology can do everything for us with as little from us as possible 😀
The psychology behind is easy but she was so daring that unbelievable how irresponsible she was...
George Schultz was one of the older men who believed in her. He had a long career in government positions under 3 different administrations as well as academia. His grandson, Tyler is in the new HBO documentary about her.
always remember psychopaths... there is no one above us, except god. just below there is prison to catch us
OMG I had no idea you reviewed this!! I'm obsessed with this!!! YAY
It’s “Liquer? I hardly knew er!”...... there’s literally no other instance in which this makes sense 😂😂😂😂😂this guy is nuts
DannaGoat poker
As our country is going so dysfunctional, it is a breath of fresh air to hearing a couple of young folks having a sensible and serious debate about real issues in our governments and societies. You are right about our stock market is not the capitalism in its true sense but totally manipulated. You are also right about our legal system is so very flawed. Hope there are more young folks out there are paying attention and getting involved for the greater good of the people, for the people and by the people. Thank you for sharing.
Elizabeth Holmes charmed the pants off Sunny Balwani!
lol blood is mostly water. I hypothesize if the patient turns his arm in a circle for 10 min as the blood is mixed in the arms there would be more viable information in the vial of blood lmao
I have a co-founder who's exactly like this. I already left her as it was getting toxic. But it's disturbing hearing this and associating most of the items in the list with her.
The other day I was driving my Dad to the doctor and I seen a group of Harry Krishnas on the. side of the road protesting male circumcision. I think those are 2 good subjects for a podcast.
Reminds me of that Kevin Costner Movie. Field of Dreams. ‘If you built it, they will come’. Faking it hoping to be making it...but the making part just never came to fruition. I just know I would have fall like a bag of bricks for her scam, because I just want medical test to be so easy.
OMG, I never thought Dr Honda was capable of cursing!!! He's so wholesome in 90 Days Fiance!!
When it comes to tech innovations- over- inflated valuations are akin to “The Emperor’s New Clothes “. Just my opinion
I'd say sociopathic. She always discarded people once she deemed them to be either a threat or of no use to her. No one was safe, not even her COO lover.
14:50 the company have never got public. Her net worth was estimated on the basis of the company valuation.
Through all the podcasts I have heard, this is the first one in which Kirk interupts Humberto when he says his job
Great podcast ! Well done ! One important motive was investors and even society wanted to be part of such a huge thing that was change history, break paradigmas and all got blind including herself. Until now she guess she has done something huge, very megalomanic. Regards from Denmark
I read somewhere that her father worked at Enron.
I can’t help thinking that there may be a gender difference in how psychopathic behaviour is manifested eg. female psychopaths tend to exhibit more relational aggression and tend toward less violent forms of offending, with a propensity toward fraud. www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14999013.2016.1138173?journalCode=ufmh20
Perhaps when assessing them we need to be aware that behavioural manifestations of traits may be different.
Yeah, Marx should be mocked,
She was just a spolit little girl who was never told no stf up ad that continued through adulthood...and she didnt go to jail...so she got away with it.
re: "and she didnt go to jail"
So far - I don't know where the case against her stands, but I'm pretty sure she and Sunny are facing trial going forward ...
uploadJ Yes, the trial has yet to happen. They’re facing something like 20 years each.
Her face during the trial was impressive. I mean she looked like a little girl who had to wake up from all bullshit she said to people for more than 12 years.
Oh she WAS told no, originally at Stanford. She went to a professor of medicine who considered an expert in this kind of thing, and she told her flat-out, that her original idea wouldn’t work. The company was founded upon Elizabeth’s original patent, I believe, and she went off at Stanford and found a guy who WOULD say yes. He later quit his tenureship at Stanford and went to work for her at Theranos bc he truly believed she was onto something revolutionary (the skin patch). I’ve been watching several docs here on UA-cam, and it’s just stunning the amount of people she bulldozed and stepped over to get what she wanted.
Francesca There hasn’t been a trial yet.
Whats the go with her saying she's an engineer? I thought you had to be at Uni for far longer than 19years old to become an actual engineer? No one is saying anything about this so is this one thing that's true? I'd assume that if she wasn't an engineer as she claims that this would have been an issue at the front of false claims by EH...The book never said anything about her claims about being an engineer nor do the documentaries
I kind of like her.
She quite literally looks like the female version of Mark Zuckerberg, if that mans put in a wig idk if We’d be able to tell the difference😂😂 his chin is a bit longer than hers tho
Awesome, I’ve been waiting for this
Will you do one on belle Gibson
Reminds me of Fyre Fest guy, does not surprise me at all that she is trying another start up.
She has a "if Steve Jobs was hot" look. I would say the makers of generic Viagra "disrupted" the industry.
14:30 The company had not gone public.
Yup. My mistake. Thanks!
She had vision but differed from Jobs by she didn't have a Wozniak.
Great show!
I enjoyed watching this video so much that I searched your channel to find your take on the movie Hereditary. I'm surprised you didn't make one given the subject matter of the movie. Please watch the movie and if your able make a vid. There is so much to do and a reason why so many have mixed feelings on the movie.
Her father was Enron’s vice president
out for blood in silicon valley was freaky
"Not a superclassic psychopath".😂 that is quite a witty concept.
I love this show
:)
I'm not sure you have to be a psychopath to do stuff like this. I have a formerly wealthy relative who's always lying and manipulating people, I just think that's how the rich get rich to be honest. One important categorisation of psychopaths is that they are outliers. That they are somehow exemplary or contrary to social or moral norms, and I don't think a con artist in Silicon Valley is all that contrary to Silicon Valley. The place itself used to be dedicated to aerospace development and military contractors. Many of whom lobbied for very meaningless and terrible wars just to enrich themselves. None of them were outliers either, they were typical citizens. Whole point of an exploitative system is to make sure you don't have to be a psychopath to commit immoral acts. And she seems like yet another drop in the ocean. Podcast also mentions Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. Steve was known for his countless labour abuses, and would often swindle his engineering team and steal credit for stuff he didn't do. Elon Musk is a Boer emerald lord who got most of his starting capital from the apartheid aristocracy, who killed countless of millions of African second class citizens. He built his conglomerate on the African equivalent of Nazi gold, and once again we see a guy who constantly steals credit, bullies people on social media, and have endangered autoworkers' lives because he thought that safety tape ''looked ugly.'' I just think rich people are really sheltered from the consequences of their actions, and probably believe they are very moral people in spite of it all.
EDIT: Also, small nitpick, the Hamburg Stock Exchange was founded in 1558 and at that point pretty much sponsored and funded the slave trade. One and a half centuries later and we got the industrial revolution as a result of the economic developments of slave baronry and investment economics. Sorry to say it, but capitalism was just as crooked at its inception. Capital is not simply owning a business, or producing goods, or selling stuff, that's existed almost a millennia prior in mercantilism. Capitalism is about economic institutions or means that can make money for you without you having to work. So instead of working at a business, you *own* a business. The reason why so many venture capitalists are dishonest leeches is just because that's kind of their job, and capitalism hasn't gotten worse over time. It's always been like this, and it's really just the nobility adjusting to the abolition of blood purity and eugenics in an effort to become aristocrats. If you just engage in the economy, or trade, or participate in a market, then you're not a capitalist. If you collect dividends from a thousand people who do those things for you, *then* you're a capitalist.
Why are comments not visible 😢
Are they not?
@@PsychologyInSeattle I can see them
They are now
No. The voice thing is a big deal!
Tammy Stephens How do you mean it? Interesting!
@@YanaNova Hey, I think it displays a level of arrogance to think that people would accept her voice as authentic. (This is just my impression; when watching videos of her, it sounds like she's putting on that voice.) It's a part of the puzzle of behaviors Elizabeth exhibits, that make her i.m.h.o., dangerous.
I've just listened to her voice and I don't find it strange at all. Cultural? I know in Japan many women speak with high-pitched voices, perhaps that is the case in the US as well? I come from and have lived most of my life in central Europe, do other European find her voice that strange, too?
People love secrets. Just ask anyone; "Do you want to know a secret" and you will have their undivided attention. That fact can easily be used to manipulate people.
Secrets are also the most powerful marketing tool I have ever seen.
Besides the formulation and dis- information of this company,(which seems to be common in a lot of corporate structures) why hasn't anyone even question why the hell are they trying to get your DNA one way or another. (Have you sent in your DNA for ancestry test yet?) Rest my point..
Her father, Christian Rasmus Holmes IV, was a vice president at Enron. I guess it is all genetic.