Calculate Solar Cost For Your Home - geni.us/solar_reviews 2 Panel Micro Inverter Unit (600W) - geni.us/Z4RdX 4 Panel Micro Inverter Unit (1200W) - geni.us/A0AfAL Ecoflow Delta Pros With Dual Voltage Hub: geni.us/HijVzm8 DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links, which means that if you click on one of the product links, I’ll receive a small commission.
I built a home set up with a 600 watt inverter. Y&H from Walmart used a gift card from work so it was only $45. Bought 2 panels 250 watts for 8$5 for both from a solar installer. They where removed for an upgrade or expansion. It knocked $100 of my monthly summer electric bill which can get as high as $380 per month. I have them facing south and at 28 degrees of elevation. Full sun I am getting 370 watts, they are old panels and brand new ones would produce more. I am thinking of expanding with more panels but stay under my grid tie inverters 600 rating. I used a power strip with surge protection where the inverter plugs into my home and have an inline fuse on the power coming in from the panels wired in parallel. I can even install a GFI outlet for the standard one that will cut out if there was ever a power surge from the panels. I used a very small desk fan that is 5 watts to help keep the inverter cool in my garage. It never overheated and overheating is what causes electrical devices to breakdown.
@@Magiciansandmagicvideos I'm no UA-camr. I did add a timer to a water hose that sprays down the panels a few times during the hottest part of the day. When the panels get too hot the energy produced actually drops. Been in the 100's in Texas. Easy loss of 100+ watts during the hottest part of the day when you think your producing the most. I built my stsyem as an experiment just to see how much it helped. The energy loss from heat is why roof systems have more panels than people think you should need. The heat also breaks down the panels and you lose efficiency. So if it takes 10 years to pay of your system you have a system that produces less than your requirements. The only work around is to upgrade your inverter much higher than you need and add more panels every couple of years to make up for the degradation loss.
Thank you for this, and YES, please keep us posted and keep testing! SPECIFICALLY: 1) Show us the unit turning off / shutting off input once mains is off. 2) Walk through what happens in a scenario where this is not in a dedicated circuit, and other appliances may be connected, and thus circumventing the circuit breaker's job to keep wiring safe (from what I understand, these units require dedicated circuits to avoid this issue).
It is a grid following inverter and not a grid forming inverter and therefore number one is not relevant. Number two is somewhat relevant but a long shot in hell that anything would ever go bad as a result of that.
#2 is a reasonable concern. You could have an air fryer, microwave, and solar on the same feed. The two loads at the same time should trip the breaker, but with the solar feeding too, the breaker won’t trip. Got to be careful.
The inspector might say it's ok, but it's up to your energy company to approve if this grid tie inverter is allowed to be connected to the energy grid. Typically the energy companies require permits in addition to the UL1741 other certifications, and external disconnects. That said, this setup should be ok, but you may have to conceal it. If you have a smart meter, these meters can detect energy returning to the grid the moment your energy consumption is below your production on any leg of your house. They will ping your energy company and you will get a threatening letter telling you to remove the equipment or face disconnection. If you have an analog meter, it's slightly easier to skirt by the rules. Your main issue is the meter reader guy seeing the meter spin backwards (although they probably don't pay attention). The second issue is your usage being negative for the month, which would be somewhat hard to do with small grid tie inverters like this. The end goal is to make your solar system to produce only enough PEAK energy to meet your IDLE house demands, but nothing more. Once you product more than you consume at any given moment, you'll run into issues. I'm debating whether to do this, so I can get the solar tax credit, though my roof isn't really oriented the right direction for sun exposure.
I can see where you are coming from however I can see this as being useful for those with non-North facing windows or balconies that live in apartment or condo complexes. Or even those who rent and can not do a permanent install. This wouldn't offset their entire use but could help in decrease their use. Just think if every south facing unit in a single apartment building were to use this to offset 1/3 of their yearly electric use what that would do for the grid. Yes, not having the proper UL and other certifications would be of extreme hinderance in getting approval from the Utility. Also not having proper external disconnects. However, again if on an apartment complex those must have a master building disconnect somewhere or a dedicated transformer the utility would trip their own circuit breaker on, Looks like a little fuse between 2 power lines.
he is feeding 120-volt power back to one leg in his house hopefully it is in phase with power company and the other leg is still drawing full power separately. so meter won't spin backwards since it goes by whichever leg is higher.
@@ranger178you are 100 percent false and don’t understand how a split phase utility transformer works. The utility will know and will fine and stop the customer from operating the inverters.
what is false and how is utility going to know he is feeding it wrong? only smart meters have any feedback otherwise it is just a mechanical spinning meter@@keithpvbatt2040
For the viewers. The support system shown is for his testing purpose. The conductors behind the solar panels must be protected or above 8’-0”. The cord used is not sunlight rated. In a real install, the receptacle should be at the inverters, not just some random receptacle and a cord laying across the lawn.
We've been running an on-grid inverter for over five years. Can use multiple panels in series or parallel, and plugs into any house mains socket. Total cost was around US$100 (+ same for each of 6 panels) ROI was less than 18 months... Providing you don't live in the US, where anything Chinese is banned or taxed beyond reach.
I actually only heard of the Powerstream the other day as they don't offer it here in the US or Canada. Those units would be perfect and I also had good luck with EcoFlow over the years. Thanks for the feedback!
Summer sun is starting here, longer days and so on. Now Im starting to see a full potentional. 10 first days in April, til today, Ibe generated 55kWh. Aproximately systen generated daily 5 to 6 kWh. And it was fairly sunny. Also, I have to mention that my panels arent oriented fully to south. But more of like west/south. So, my setup is: 600w powerstream with 2x400w Ecoflow rigid panels oriented to west, almost flat down at 5 degree angle. 800W powerstream with 2x435W bifacial panels oriented to south with 10 degree angle and white metal roof which reflects sun to them too. River2Max with 2x100w panels in parallel, connected to powerstream so that when battery is over 80% it discharges its energy to powerstream and to the house apliances.
@@vedranart How do you connect two powerstreams to one river2 max? also only saw about powerstream toonight (south africa), they have started selling them here... seems like you would need the smart plug as well to determine where current needs to go. be interesting to see video of your setup.
I've got a couple of these sorts of microinverters. Mostly for testing how bad they are. And they do work, but most of them do have major gotchas and issues. Y&H is a major brand for these sorts of things and you are right, there are likely onl two actual OEMs. * These devices are mostly not current limited. I think they are somewhat temperature limited, but at too high a temperature. If you plug in too much solar they will happily over-produce until something fries. * These devices have VERY POOR efficiencies. They market high efficiencies but the actual efficiencies are generally around 80%-85%. Very very poor. Real micro-inverters have efficiencies above 97%. And you can tell by how hot these suckers get. * These devices as sold are often mis-labeled with regards to voltage, power, and current capabilities. * A 120VAC AC output is just putting power back on one leg... only one of the HOTs coming into the house from the utility (there are two, for 240VAC) is having power returned on it. Of course, you are also limited by the household plug. But still, it is not ideal. So at least try to match what the microinverter is pushing with other household loads that are on that leg. * YOU CAN OVERLOAD A HOUSE CIRCUIT WITHOUT TRIPPING THE BREAKER. THIS CAN CAUSE A FIRE AND BURN DOWN YOUR HOUSE! How? Lets say you have the circuit wiring with household plugs going from A to B to C to D to the 15A subpanel breaker. Now lets say you plug the micro-inverter into C and you are pushing 1000W. Now lets say that you turn something on at B which eats 1200W. So far so good. The breaker only sees 200W and the B-C segment has 1200W on it. But now lets say you turn something on at A which also eats 1200W. Now the breaker is only delivering 1400W to the circuit but the "B-C" segment of the wiring has 2400W running through it. Bad end. What this means is that if you do use something like this, either severely limit the amperage it pushes back to the grid (to less than 500W is my recommendation), or ensure that it is on a dedicated circuit. Normally grid-tie inverters are required to be on dedicated circuits. * These units do not track waveform deformations due to inductive loads very well. From what I can tell, they literally just push a synchronized sine wave instead of doing 4-quadrant matching, so in terms of dealing with reactive power they might be making a mess out of the waveform or they might be overheating themselves trying to work against the reactive power on the waveform without realizing it. So YMMV if you have an A/C system running. * These devices will operate with line voltages that are way out of spec. They are designed for broad compatibility across several countries. But the high-side of the range they will push the line voltage to is probably too high. * These units are NOT UL1741 or UL1741SA certified. It isn't even close. UL1741 is the certification required for grid-tie. These units will shut-down if the grid goes down, sure, but not being certified means that these units do not follow safety protocols for grid restarts (for example). Among many other issues. My conclusion is that for someone just messing around with a few hundred watts, these things do work fairly well. But don't trust them beyond that. Certainly not with the large array you connected that thing to in your example. And be damn careful not to overload whatever circuit you plug them into. Don't share a circuit with a room that someone might plug a space heater into, for example.
I have a detached shed I just trenched dedicated power to on 12awg and a 20a breaker. I wanted to use this setup to charge power tools, yard lights, and when excess is produced help with the offset idle house usage or push back to the grid. If make an outlet just for the inverter, would this be a pretty safe and savvy setup? Would throwing a GFCI on the outlet help and/or creating a sub panel breaker box in the shed help for safety? I already have a professionally installed solar system on my house so I’m already approved to push back to the grid. My electrical usage is increasing from when I first got my array installed so I’ve been wanting to expand my array and DIY it. Thought throwing 2 400w panels on the roof of my shed would be sweet with this little inverter. And make use of the shed roof real estate.
@@kylezane2718 Throwing 2 x 400W panels on your shed is an excellent idea. That alone would be enough to charge power tools and run (LED) yard lights in the evening. Usually when people do that they tie the panel into a small power station, or build a small charge controller + LiFePO4 battery + inverter system for it. And don't trench AC to the out-building at all. But since you trenched AC to your shed already, you want to know if you could put one of these micro-inverters in and tie it to the trenched AC? The answer is yes, as long as the topology is done right. * The trenched AC line should be on a dedicated circuit from the house, not shared with anything else. It is ok if the circuit hangs off a sub-panel though. 120VAC is fine but make sure a ground is also run (3-wire... hot, neutral, ground). * GFCI breakers area good idea. Certainly at least the breaker in the house panel that runs to the trench should be a GFCI breaker for safety to catch shorts to ground. * Put an additional small sub-panel in the shed. * Tie the micro-inverter into the sub-panel through an appropriate breaker. Make sure it has ventillation. * And tie other garage plugs into the sub-panel through appropriate breakers. GFCI plug(s) are a good idea. Beyond that, you have to make the determination as to whether you trust the micro-inverter itself. That part is on you. I personally don't trust these micro-inverters very much, I have a metal box with fans that I stuff mine into when I use it. But my preference these days is to put together a small solar + battery system instead and not mess with the grid at all.
I’ve got a few similar inverters that I’ve been running a few months on a temporary setup. They definitely shut down a lot from overheating. We’ll see how long they last.
Yeah, I want to push it a bit (higher outside temp and closer to 1200 Watts) and takes some images with the FLIR camera to see what the skin temp is getting up to at or close to the shutdown. Seems like that is the major complaint and you have to think that would impact the overall life. Thanks for the feedback!
Check the house in your community ask them if their are overheating because most of the Grid tie installs are done using micro inverters. Check your setup because if yours is shutting down because of heat something is wrong at your house .
It still breaks code if the baseline load of the home is lower than the power generation, at least in the state of California. You need a utility contract to legally backfeed into the grid.
Well, for the last 23 years I've been doing exactly this. Unless they (the utilities) actually check they will never find out. It's all monopoly politics since any excess generated electrons will simply go to your neighbors. Also, most inverters now can prevent export with a CT clamp. In California, practically anything you do in your house is against code - unless, of course, you've paid the city some money on which they can tax you.
I ordered the 600 watt version and hooked it up to a two-panel "test" array using salvaged 395 watt panels that I got for free. The build quality of the inverter's aluminum case actually looked quite nice. I noticed that there are finned heat sinks built into the top and bottom ends of the case. If the 1200 watt version is internally just 2 of these units that are stacked vertically into one case, then they are reducing the heat sink area by a full 50% per watt, which could be why they are prone to overheating? Also, with the two-panel 600 watt version, you may only need 1 PV cable extension as the other three panel leads will reach the microinverter directly. The digital display is also nice looking and has a button to turn on/off internal backlighting, but it is obviously made to be panel mounted (into a water tight enclosure - will have to think of a solution for that; maybe a small tupperware type container as others have said). And yes, the 120v version is only going to deliver power one leg of the main panel. I also already have a permitted roof top solar system and the test array is connected to that system's combiner box so I am not sure what the AHJ / utility company would say if you just plugged some of these into the outlets of a random house.
Thanks for the feedback. If you are bringing it into your combiner box you should be good. Depending on your utility and net metering setup they might want to cap you at a percentage over your normal usage. My utility does not want you to surpass 120% of your normal energy usage.
They will say that is not included in the agreement that you sign as a result your small generation system is in violation and you have x time to correct it or we will take necessary action to correct it. Disconnection
That is a system they are using in Germany they call it balkonkraftwerk / balcony power plant it connected directly into the power outlet an it shuts off every few milliseconds to measure if they still current in the system so it can't shock you if it did not feel the power then it will shut off
We had a solar system professionally installed for our home. They used AP Systems QS1 inverters which also have 4 inputs. The output is 240v and after going through a cutoff switch ties directly into the main power input of our home. The system has been running now for 8 months. I can monitor the output of each panel or of the system on my iPhone.
Hi, just watch out for the DC Company noting you back feed. The EU allows up to 500w in but they go off when the grid goes down for safety. They are good and just keep working in the background powering the loads you have and reduce your bills. Combine it with a battery and a charge controller and you could have power 24 hrs a day. It works. Good for all those parasitic loaded and thing you have on during the day. Take care M.
The inverters you have are the same thing as these companies are pushing as plug and play. They function exactly the same way because they are the same thing. They just added a led display on a cable and a standard plug . They can get two of these same units and plug one into each phase then they will be feeding into both phases. Your system will go down just like theirs when the Grid goes down to prevent islanding.
@@markeh1971 What watch out, his system was approved and professionally installed using the same types of mirco inverters. Most grid tie installations now are done using Micro Inverters.
Plug and play solar is an interesting topic. Since these will shut off during a grid outage, it follows that transfer switches are going to be an interesting topic as well. I mean whatever type will let you keep using your solar and possibly a generator and maybe also a battery during a grid outage. I'm sure there will be more of those coming out, I hope you keep an eye on that for us.
I believe that in Europe this is known as a Balcony Solar system. What I would like to know is: How will the power company react if they see power going out to the grid and there is no net metering agreement in place.
in denmark you need to instal a meter for exporting to the grid, if you want grid connected solar... these are not legal in denmark even if you have a meter for exporting... but in germany you just plug these thing in without anything the companys that owns the local grid, can tell you the local rules
to go out you would need to have a higher voltage than theirs. If you plug a 9 volt battery into your cars fuse box it is not going to charge the cars battery unless it falls under 9V.
FYI if you produce more power than you are using in the home at any time you can be charged for it as usage. Some if not all modern meters count up regardless of direction of flow. I have similar setup and I tested it. So be careful of how much power you make with these setups.
This was my biggest worry also. I have a small home but have small window AC's that run constantly. I tested two of the smaller two panel units. Both units only lasted 3 and 4 months. I live in south Florida. I wouldn't recommend them unless you create a way to add active thermal management. Example, water cooled with a heat sink in hot environments. They come with a warranty but you have to ship them back to China which is half to 2/3 the cost of the unit. If you live in more northern states just be careful in the summer. That's my two cents.
@@jeremyvandervort I left you a lengthy reply on my setup earlier and apparently YT deleted it. Long story short mine is an inside unit with fans made in both ends. You run you DC inside. I have had 8 and at times 10 100watt panels on it for a year and a half with no problems in my shop sometimes reaching 110 degrees. It was only $119. I'm not sure of the efficiency of it but it seems durable. I can put up an item number if you'd like to see the type of it.
@@bw3506can you share what unit you used? I’m interested in something like this for my detached garage that I just trenched dedicated power to and want to tie in this inverter to offset idle house usage costs.
I would be interesting to see if you could run 2 of these setups in parallel and with a big UPS. Then also test the power cutoff by flipping the breaker on the curcit that the extension cord is plugged into. Great video!
Very informative and well put together........ Very Professional......... In my case I have already had 4 x 250W panels for 7 years and have been very successful........... Currently on my two new apts I am fitting 2 x VEVOR Solar Grid Tie Micro Inverters 1200W for my 4 x 440watt panels. My thoughts are that although rated at 1200 watt I will be running 880 watts through each inverter....and in addition will be using a solar fan to keep inverters cooler.......... because even if the inverter is rated at 1200 it seems to me if its working at only 2/3rds its maximum power it will thank you for it by increased power....... cooler is better.
there was a company in Arizona that was making a panel you could buy for a while. you just pluged it in and it would automatically shut down for a power outage. when I tried to find the company on line they were out of business before they got started. If you are feeding back through a circut on your house you would not want to exceed 1800 watts and that would be running the max your curcut is rated for.
So imagine someone buys 2 of these. Each one is supplying power to the house. The grid goes out but each unit sees the power is on in the house because the other unit is on. Isnt that going to put utility workers at risk?
Looking at the info page, Both the 110v and 220v do feedback to the grid extra power. So you need to have your meter setup with your power company to handle it or you will have problems. This also means you will need permits to install it.
Absolutely amazing, if the bugs could be worked out, this could be truly revolutionary. Most potential for any new product I can think of right now besides AI. If someone truly figures this out and gets the necessary certifications and or patents, they will make bank$$$. Gotta imagine the electric company won’t be too happy and probably has a reason why this is not allowed, but if you could, it would be a game changer.
Dude Micro Inverters don't have any bugs as you are thinking to be worked out, they are in full use all over the world and in United States of America. Seem everyone in the UA-cam video is trying to reinvent the wheel . Clearly the host don't know what he is talking about, he should have down some research, consulted an installer of Grid tie systems . Nonsense
I do that too. Using four 225 ahr Trojan lead acid batteries, I have a 120v 3000 watt Renogy inverter to a Generac 6 bank transfer switches for 3/4 of the house 100% of the time which includes the refrigerator (each circuit can be switched to the grid if needed). Then, I have an Aims 4000 watt 240 volt inverter plugged into the generator plug (which feeds a transfer switch on the main panel) to energize other circuits such as the washing machine, dishwasher, air conditioner. I also have a cheap harbor freight 120 volt 2000 watt square wave inverter to only heat a 1500 watt 120 volt water heater element in a preheater water heater (that feeds a propane water heater), which has a 6 hour spring wound timer to energize the heater. I have reduced my power bill by 90% (and propane bill by 60%) with no grid tie inverters. My system is all isolated from the grid. In the foothills of N. CA we lose power about a week or two a year, so I have full off grid capability, especially if I run the generator one hour a day during storms. I may have around 10,000 watts of assorted panels, some are bifacial that stand up vertically facing east/west. They do not accumulate snow in the winter and still charge the batteries without brushing them off. Because of the assortment of panels, I have around 3 to 5 panels connected to each Victron charge controller, I have around 10 charge controllers and I suppose 40 or so panels. Groups of panels face different directions for different times of the year and different times of the day, such as afternoon summer air conditioning power.
@@steverturnsk6190 love your water preheating tank implementation. That is a simple, safe, worry free solution for someone to play with a few solar panels lying around to use with this dodgy Chinese inverter, without even risking plugging it into the house. Thanks for sharing your topography, very nice setup and clear description! There are also available more efficient direct DC heating elements too, or maybe they are just AC elements, I forget. I think they might all be DV elements, because they are simple resistive elements. In any case, one must be correctly match the element's OHM value to the power feeding them, in order to get that extra DC efficiency. I believe when hooked directly, you may not even need an inverter! People will do this for their RV tank with a spare 100w solar panel. Just a FYI for anyone thinking of using direct solar DC to power a water heating element. There are charts and maybe some math on the UA-cam videos. I.e. Search "ohm matching element" returns: "How to Use Solar Panels and Ohms Law to drive DC loads directly! Solar Electric 101" ,"Solar Power Edge" Chanel
Better to use an off grid string inverter on a critical circuits panel with grid input when battery and solar isn’t sufficient. The power is clean and you have100% self consumption. The technology has advanced greatly and is not expensive.
I am assuming the circuit MUST sense and synchronize itself to the power grid like expensive systems. However, I have 3 concerns... Concern 1) I would highly recommend stressing that connecting the way it comes is against the code and could be DEADLY! All you need is a kid (or adult) coming by and unplugging it. I suppose it could be meant to only output if it senses grid power but is that the case???? Just too much risk IMHO. Of course a "regular" male plug is also very dangerous on the house side, so that isn't the answer either. Maybe they make a special no exposed contact connector??? Concern 2) The danger of backfeeding the power grid... I suppose the same safety feature I mentioned for concern 1 MIGHT take care of that in theory? Concern 3) As someone else mentioned, with both the solar and grid able to supply power, the normal breaker protecting that circuit could in theory supply more than it's rated current... The amount from the breaker AND whatever solar can supply. It should feed a dedicated circuit IMHO. Thanks for your videos. Please take this as constructive feedback. (Note: I am NOT a licensed electrician.)
Properly designed follower-inverters have to continuously monitor line voltage and current to keep their output current in-phase with the grid. The inverter is basically acting like an AC current source and on disconnect, its output voltage will surge from no longer having a load to dump current into. It has to immediately shut down to avoid self-destruction. In the case of an utilities-side power failure, follower-inverters aren't capable of maintaining a stable waveform on their own and should shut down as soon as they detect that line voltage isn't anywhere near sinusoidal, not the correct frequency, not the correct amplitude, etc. Also, when power goes out, those inverters would suddenly need to offset 10s of kVA worth of distribution transformer reactance that may still be in-circuit on top of all of the loads those are connected to. This makes it impossible for follower-inverters to keep current in phase with voltage and should cause them to shut down much faster than AC motors will stop back-feeding into the grid while spinning down.
On the hottest days mine would overheat. I made a passive cooling system that has worked well. Basically the inverter is enveloped in a thin layer of plastic and placed in a box lifted off the bottom so there is air flow. On the top is Basically a 1 gallon bag of water that acts as a heat sink. I also usevan Emporia smart plug to monitor energy production and did not install the non weather proof device they included. I have solar on my home already and permits from that with the power company.
Did you put this on a dedicated circuit or plug it in with another used line on the house? How did you set yours up? Are you maxing it out at 1200w with 4 panels? I also have solar but want to expand and update. I just trenched 12awg to my detached shed on a 20a breaker to charge tools, run yard lights and want to further offset my idle house usage and thought this would be great to use the sheds roof real estate and pop 2 400w panels o.n top. Hopefully that shouldn’t overwhelm the inverter. Im capable of doing it myself but want to make sure I don’t overload my circuit. I thought about installing a dedicated gfci outlet to the inverter and maybe even a sub panel breaker box in the shed for added fault protection. Do you think the emporia smart plug nice to see the specific production from that unit? With your house solar are you able to monitor and notice the additional production on the separate panels producing as well? I have SolarEdge to monitor my house solar.
The biggest thing is if you don't have your home electric meter setup to send power to the grid, if you do send power to the grid, you'll get billed like you were using that energy. Now if you are staying under the output of this, then you are fine. Well....might have some code questions, but the setup would work.
Great video! I have been using Grid Tied invertors for over 2 years with mixed results. Obviously, without storage it is only useful producing power while the sun is out and your home is asking for use. You can attach grid tied invertors to different legs of your system to enable useful power wherever it is needed. My next step is to add battery storage and either DC or AC couple the system, but I am far from having that knowledge and/or money to get there.
What do you mean by attaching grid tied inverters to different legs of your system? Does that mean you’re only getting solar power to the part of your house that the solar is attached to under that circuit breaker? I thought if you plug it into any part on your house it can produce power anywhere even to an application which on usually on their own breakers? I’m asking because I have a solar system on my house but am looking to expand. Specifically I have a detached shed I just trenched dedicated power to on 12awg and a 20a breaker. I wanted to use this setup to charge and run power tools, yard lights, and when excess is produced help with the offset idle house usage or help my residential solar push back to the grid and increase my offset credits. So curious if this will work if it’s attached to a dedicated breaker but shouldn’t it still push power access the rest of the house or back to the grid?
@@kylezane2718 When I started in solar, I watched many videos and this one was pretty good explaining separate 'legs' or phases when using grid tie inverters. ua-cam.com/video/aBgwf3wCEA8/v-deo.html I actually have a shed that houses 2 of my grid tie inverters and I wired 2 outlets, one on each side of the breaker panel, so it would feed each leg. 1300 watts on one and 400 watts on the other, using a 600 watt GTI and a 1300 watt GTI. Theoretically, I can be producing a little bit of power on each leg that could be offsetting power consumption of my 240 volt pool pump, as it take it's hot for each leg.
@@KantuskiProbably should have said both legs or used "phases" instead of legs. Legs sound like branches and a branch is the circuit after the breaker. At first I thought you didn't understand how the fuse box works when you said "different circuits" because there are only two phases to match or worry about. The video you pointed to made me understand it was a terminology issue.
if it overheats just get some thermal epoxy , a large heatsink that covers a whole side , some fans and a DC Buck Converter rated to >50v. Epoxy the heatsink to the back side, mount the fans to heatsink, power fans from the buck converter connected to one of the solar panels.
@@Riceman-o1p the only other way is to open it up, find the components that are over heating, build a custom heat sink and cooling system within the space or expand the space, then tap into the existing power.
Enphase microinverters in use on balconies all over the city of Paris. Two modules, two micros. Rare for a balcony with space for 4 modules. modules are rarely optimally positioned. Horizontal in fact. Critical weather sensitive components protected at the plug location.
Imagine being savvy enough to create a water cooler like we see in PC builds for CPUs on this thing? I'm just imagining sapping a wee bit of that power produced in order to use a DIY water cooler setup to keep these temps safe for these units.
For me, the most interesting part was how much it produced. I understood it to be basically 1/2 kilowatt hour per hour of operation. Our electricity here is fairly "cheap" at 10 cents per KW HOUR. that's 5 cents per hour x say 8 hours per day or say $12/ month or $250/ year. How long will my ROI be? If I have no equipment failures, etc?
Yeah, I have another one I am testing in the coming weeks which hopefully will have a reasonable ROI. This setup wouldn't make much sense for those of us paying around $0.10 per kWh.
In Europe, this type of micro inverter is approved for outputs of 600W to 800W. A normal 230V socket is used for this. In Germany, only tested devices that are safe can be connected. In Germany, the devices must have two shutdown devices. On the one hand, there are the MOSFETs, and on the other hand, there is a built-in relay. Even if the plug is pulled out during full operation, the bare contacts are safe to touch. The Enphase micro inverters are not approved for use on a socket in Germany. These are only approved for permanent connection. All devices larger than 800W are required to have a permanent connection.
Wonder if you could use this with a pure sine wave inverter on a off-grid microgrid instead? or with something such as a bluetti or ecoflow? That way you avoid the possible legal issues that may arise with your power company or other organizations.
A micro inverter can only be coupled to an off-grid inverter that has the AC coupling function. The Victron line has equipment like this. The problem is that the inverters monitor the output voltage and the microinverter increases that voltage when coupling and causes problems in the off-grid inverter.
watched a kid use a cheap car inverter to put a sine wave into wall outlet. It worked. don't need a pure sine waive, just something going up and down. Would be interesting how dirty a step will still work. 3 bit step, crossover top, crossover bottom.......
Really need to invest in a solid extension cord and I would put it into a 20 amp circuit for some extra margin. Also a lot of electric providers require a separate disconnect.
I've heard of "suicide cords" but this is the first "suicide inverter" I've seen. This should be hard wired to a breaker in a panel not plugged into a wall outlet. What happens if the power output of the array exceeds the power usage of the home? Some smaller houses may not have a baseline usage of more than what a 1200 watt array can output. Then you end up exporting without any kind of export agreement or allowance from the utility. How quick is it to turn off when the power from the grid gets cut off? So many potential issues...
I just realized that this is also going to dump power to only one leg of the panel too... so not only do you have to make sure it never produces more than the base load of the house, it has to not exceed the base load of the LEG IT'S ON to prevent backfeeding. Oy...
It will not power up until it has a supply into it. The cord is dead until you plug it into an outlet. The inverter has to get a waveform from the grid to match it so to not cause a mismatch. 60hz for USA I believe
@@markmmm1737 None of your points address the valid concerns raised by teseract. teseract is talking about illegally pushing electrons on to the grid, and unsafely pushing too much power onto a single leg. Also, using this device violates the terms of your house insurance because it's not certified. Great idea, but it's a beta - use it on buildings that do not house people.
This thing is scary as heck. The NEC code, and UL listings are there so children, fire fighters, and power co workers dont get killed by some DIYer buying cheap junk, and doing stupid stuff with power.
Just think about this--even as a temp set up or experiment-- If you don't have a grid sellback agreement ( and where I live that adds $12 to my bill monthly) and you send a few electrons down range--and it's detected by your power company, which is likely, you're likely to be disconnected, and have some questions to answer. caveat emptor
Probably been pointed out but you do need to be aware that feeding power into a power-point needs to be done with some consideration. Example would be the PV at the end of a circuit, a power-point mid-way on that circuit that is overloaded... The main fuse won't blow as it might be supplying the max current down that circuit. The PV will be providing max current up the current and the mid-span power-point lead could melt. :)
I think you are confused. Minus the limiting capability and trying not to send power back to the grid this is exactly how the simplest grid tied systems work. Maybe it's a terminology issue with "powerpoint".
The biggest mistake people do with solar is they don’t do a power audit before installing solar. I managed to reduce my monthly electric bill by around $100 just by finding all the parasitic leaks. That reduced the amount of solar needed to power my house saving me big money.
UHHHH a code issue you say? How about getting sued by your utility for illegally back-feeding to the grid. Doesn't matter if you have RSD (which is also required by code), they are legally required to know about all power production systems, be they 1kW or 1GW, touching the grid.
I've been wanting to make this exact video!! So happy someone is starting to test out these "plug-in" solar panels and start the discussion on if they're a good DIY option... because if they are they could save people A LOT of upfront cost on batteries. Great job, Scott. Just found your channel and love it. Hit me up if you ever wanna chat about solar stuff!
Yeah, I love the idea but as with most things I think we will have to run through a few different iterations before I find one that lasts, the utility approves, and my local inspector gives the green light. More videos to come for sure.
wrong, it will back feed into the grid even if main breakers are on. the only time it wont back feed is if the power usage at the home is less than what the inverters are producing
This is fascinating. Plug and play solar is very common in the EU. Literally every secind home in my town has plug and play pv or normal grid tie or both. Not sure why it's a big issue in the US. In the EU, the only issue is the blackout auto disconnect. As long as the micro inverter meets this requirement, then your good. I paid about 450 dollars for a 900w system. Never overheats. Will pay for itself in 3 years, then it's pure profit.
@Hansen710 Austria, Germany, France, Switzerland and Liechtenstein for certain. Probably more too. Very common where I live, has been for about 5 years.
No profit since the power company will raise the rates so you pay the same you were paying for 1/3rd the power. government will never let them lose money. how would they pay them the bribes.
I tested two of the smaller two panel units. Small house with constant running window AC units. Both units only lasted 3 and 4 months. Property in south Florida. I wouldn't recommend them unless you create a way to add active thermal management. Example, water cooled with a heat sink in hot environments. They come with a warranty but you have to ship them back to China which is half to 2/3 the cost of the unit. If you live in more northern states just be careful in the summer. That's my two cents. The other issue is if you're not using all the power that they are creating because we're on smart meters in South Florida you will end up paying for the electricity that you produced.
Four 300W panels @ 110v produces 10 amps. That wire with the plug barely looks like 14 gauge which is able to handle 10A but I'd want 12 gauge to cut down on the wire resistance if I'm running a 100' from the panels to my home. As far as overheating goes, I remember back about 20 years ago people were putting their motherboards in mineral oil to help dissipate heat. An old plastic tool box filled with oil might be a good solution as long as you can keep water out of it. Right now a local panel distributor is selling 240W panels for $20!! For under $700 I can get enough panels for an 8KW system.
IMO a better and safer way to do this would be to run loads off a transfer switch so you are isolated from backfeeding to the grid. You also are less likely to get into trouble from your power company. I installed my transfer switch without an electrician.
There is no way to isolate this from the grid, the grid stimulation is what allows it to parallel into the homes electrical consumption, and only on one leg of the panel. In my opinion it will not get accepted /certified for grid tie through your power company, regardless of what an inspector says. If there is any agreement for two-way metering it usually costs at least $10 per month just to have that, grid tie at my home in Indiana is $12 monthly, so you'd have to make a lot of juice to just break even. If you send even one electron backwards without this agreement (modern meter system) you can have your service disconnected. There's so much to think about before trying this. What would be interesting is to isolate the home with a generator lockout in the main panel and create your own grid separate from the power company and add a little juice through two micros --one on each leg, to reduce the generator load. You would have to consume a the solar input as a minimum or risk generator damage though but that would be on you, without any grid to absorb any excess.
@@bruceeverett5372 a generator lockout and transfer switch operate the same way. Both options completely remove the circuits from the grid and allow them to run on an additional power source.
@@MrSummitville yes I understand.... That's why I would recommend using a different solution. Like a battery and inverter and transfer switch, not a grid tie inverter like seen in the video.
The info. On the Amazon page says keep in dry cool location, can not be in the rain and out of direct sunlight…so you might want to shelter the inverter.
Yeah, for a longer term installation I would probably try to remove the display and mount to the rail ensuring shade from the panels. Even with these changes I am feeling like this unit still will have issues rejecting heat but that is why I am going to run a longer multi-day test.
I would like to see the waveform of the power on an oscilloscope. The output waveform and the one when connected to the home load. Please keep in mind modern homes have many devices that aren't simple resistive loads. The ones that are not may not like the power provided. Using a VOM doesn't show all the elements. Who knows how the power from that inverter looks.
Oh man, that is a super common want/need right now and there isn't a great solution. Pretty much have to go through Enphase a buy another large box that will manage where the power is coming from and then but the Enphase batteries.
Sounds to me, if the grid is down do to a power outage then it would be putting out power to the grid and possibly endangering a lineman doing his job.
You shpuld do one simple test on these: when in and powering your house, turn off your main breaker to simulate a grid fault. Do that with a light on and maybe not drawing more than what that inverter can provide at that moment. I am actually curious if and for how long the ligh would stay on. Edit: and if you plug in a generator in a wall socket without the mains on/off grid switch like an ats or something more manual, with the mains running or coming back... it will make some expensive noises and smells. There is no chance a regular generator would sync to grid, it will just blow whatever fuses are concerned and maybe burn something extra like itself, some cords, something in your panel. Also, back feeding the grid with a genset is almost impossible. There are many more houses on that phase you are so you better have some serious generator power to keep your entire neighborhood, at least, powered. In a realistic scenario, in the best case you'll just stall your genset. Second best case, your main breaker trips, insulates you from the grid and you have power whilst others don't.
I haven't done a dedicated review but have used it in several videos. You need to select the correct version for you phone amzn.to/3sDm4I8. I need a different one now that iPhone has USB-C 🤦♂️
i wonder if it would be useful to use a peltier device, with an extra dedicated panel, to actively cool the inverters and panels (or just a small heat pump)
So I've been looking at microinverts for a bit now, for the off-grid system I'm building. At my current stage, I've got a very small system (6x200w) panels. However I'm basically in the woods, and there's a fairly small window to the sky and there is a lot of shading issues, thus the microinverters would help in that each panel (or 2s wired panels) would give full output anytime they are in full sun, regardless of what the other panels are doing. The thinking is to feed the 120vac into the grid connection, in this case of an EG4 3k/48 all in one. However I just got that system up and running, and need to check if there is any ac on the ac input terminals with nothing connected. If not, then these would not work (unless I trick it) Here's a thought for those using this type of microinverter, on a batteryless, grid-tied situation. If you can isolate your home wiring from the grid (such as is used with a generator under those connections) and feed some, even small amount of 120vac 60hz power onto it, maybe from a small "solar generator", then perhaps the panels would see this and come on line and take some or much of the reduced load of the house, leaving the "solar generator" more or fully charged until the sun goes down. Just thinking out loud.
I don't see in the specs where it says it will shut off if the house power cuts off and I find that suspect. You need to test that feature and see how fast it cuts off power. That would also negate any benefit for an emergency power system as it won't work in a blackout.
Id like to use something like this to power a space heater on a mini closed circuit, that would offset other forms of heating and since home is partially heated by resistance electrical heating benefit would be the same as backfeeding yhe grid but with few/no safety issues or legal issues ultimately the best use would be to heat water in the hot water heater with resistance heating element since the water acts like a battery of sorts storing energy to be used later.
Islanding is creating an island of power in an off grid scenario. Grid tie inverters require anti-islanding technology to prevent creating an island of power when the grid goes down.
@@everydaysolar Minimally take a moment to read the UL1741 description. Grid tie inverters are referred to as interactive inverters. But, I'm not an electrician so do with that information as one wants.
I have these only in the 240v version. I have 12 of them on ground mounts outside. I have them go directly into two main panels to 240v 50amp breakers. they work great except the overheating that does shut them down. I have had failures and replacements.
if you have one lying around and not in use most of the time, could you connect a foldable/portable solar panel (jackery/bluetti/etc) to one of those microinverters and plug it into an outlet in your home the same way? and if you already have a grid tied solar system with net metering, would there be any way the electric company could tell the difference (if there is any) between power coming from your regular panels vs that portable panel?
4:00 You can't take those temperature readings at face value. FLIR attachment no different than handheld IR thermometer. Every material has its own emissivity. While FLIR displays are certainly informative, the temperature readings are... well, to be technical, accurate without being precise. I get different readings in the same spot on my solar thermal setup, depending if I'm pointing at bronze or stainless; the fluid passing through each, is the same temperature I assure you. If I really want to know the temp of my glycol solution, I use a quality thermometer with a thermowell immersed in the fluid, i.e. permanent installation, at each monitoring point. Those little color-changing stick-on aquarium thermometers are surprisingly accurate, because they're calibrated to the emissivity of glass. I use two: one in the substrate, another at the waterline.
Those aquarium thermometers are precise, without being accurate. The "display" kinda buffers water-temp changes, iow, not up-to-the-minute accurate. But precise, over the five minutes it takes to react to changing water temperature behind the glass.
Very interested in this, Couple things that I see as potential problems/Questions. 1. As others have mentioned while its code compliant in my area (Michigan) you can't backfeed to the grid with out power company approval and they won't allow anything not UL listed. You might be able to get around this if you have an existing solar system and just use this to add additional power. 2. What would happen if I had this plugged into my house and grid goes down but power still is on due to my existing solar and batteries? Would this damage my main inverter?
If it doesn’t produce enough power to back feed into the grid what’s the problem? It has a monitor system that will dropout if the grid goes down .pay attention to what he says😮
Your link is wrong for the 1200w one, and it is properly priced compared to the US, the 600W one is over priced compared to the US. I also do affiliate links, but I do Canada and USA ones, so I always check if the seller is overcharging in Canada (a lot do)
Everyday Solar what is a Grid Tied Micro Inverter? Explain the difference between what you have here and a Grid Tie Micro Inverter found on professionally installed homes and businesses. Can you publish the specs of your device and a 1200 Watt Grid Tied Micro Inverter .
The big difference with this unit is the output is 120V as compared to something like an Enphase which is 240V. Here is the Y&H Micro Inverter I used which will include the rest of the specs amzn.to/3QZFcrQ
@@everydaysolar may I ask, is it possible to back feed it thru the solar generator like the ecoflow delta pro? If it works it would be a good option to charge your delta pro and also it can be use to test the used pv panel your buying if it works. I have bought used panel that I tested with a voltage meter but when I got home, it will not work with my gridtie inverter, even though voltage was ok.
Interesting piece of tech. My only concern is about future insurance claims given it’s not UL approved. Question: could two inverter units be used to augment 240 split phase (eg one inverter for L1 and another for L2? )
how does this work if you already have net metering? I've had solar for 11 years pumping back to the grid. Overall I've paid the system back and additional monies but realized they are paying me the wholesale rate for electricity I produce but charging me full price of course for what I use. I'm now settng up a Delta Pro Max with 18kwh storage. Trying to figure out how I can charge and then use that energy to offset the crazy pricing they are doing. If I can just charge from solar an then feed from the Delta back into the grid via a 240 v that would be great. 🙂
You must not connect an inverter to anything but a dedicated branch circuit. Having any other devices on the branch risks overloading the circuit should a fault develop.
I'm just thinking outloud here, in a written sense, but say you had a fully off-grid setup already in use at your home or property. Presuming you have a loads panel and that feeds one or more 120v outlets, could you connect this string inverter to that outlet, where it will sense the voltage from your off-grid setup, and start feeding that system with the energy it produces? Seems like this could be a very good way of adding more peak demand capacity, like running an AC unit during hot days or a resistive heater on cold days?
So, what I don't get is: why is it an issue if you push energy onto the grid with this system. So, if these panels produce more than your house consumes it'll push energy to the grid. That is exactly the same as what "normal" solar panels do, right? I would be interested in having a plug in wind mill. No need to produce vast amounts of energy. Just for the sake of experimenting about max 100 Watt of energy would be really interesting. And that is manageable to feed to an outlet.
1: Having those exposed AC terminals (especially outdoor conditions) is an awful idea. That power meter should just be bypassed. 2. There's no safe way to plug this into a house, I just don't know how much I trust that the inverter will shut down when power goes off or it's unplugged. 3. There is the potential to overload the circuit it's plugged into. You could potentially draw 30 amps through the receptacle and some of the wiring without the panel breaker tripping. It should be plugged into it's own dedicated circuit, or preferably right to a breaker. 4. Would be nice if US residential was all 240V single phase, it would make circuit distribution easier and cheaper. You could run 14 gauge to almost every circuit and not have to worry about panel leg imbalance.
I think its great that your doing this video. You would be better off to not feed the whole house and just use a sepperate outlet not connected to house. Then you wouldnt have to worry about back feed issues. The avarage person has no clue as to how to set up and solor system let alone what you are suggesting. The other thing is just because your solor is producing thousands of killiowatt doesnt mean your bennifiting from that production. The electric companys constantly monitor the power to increase or decrease power. Does a solor sytem cause the power company more supply issues? It sees like it would. Washing ton state has a intresting set up for charging your car. Mabe you could talk about that?
i was told by a friend if my local company senses surplus power backfeeding to the smart meter without a net metering agreement they will cut your service and potentially come after you. i am looking into a zero export device to keep surplus power from hitting the meter.
I am sure every utility would handle it differently but when I contacted my utility company they would not allow a net metering agreement but also weren't worried about back feeding if the power was on.
Anyway it has a build in safety system and with max 600w plug and play its pretty safe. So with the micro Inverters safety system that monitors if there is power in the grid before delivering power, would it be possible to plug it into a portable power station..?
120v not 240v means it is single phase so you are only "powering" anything on that same panel busbar and off setting the usage on that single phase. So someone would in theory need to be able to identify which busbar is more heavily loaded and back feed a circuit on that phase. If you were to be using a 240v appliance, Electric Stove/Dryer, I would be interested in "seeing" how the current would interact between the panels, grid, and the appliance as the solar panels with this inverter is only supplying current to 1/2 the circuit.
Generally speaking, plugging these into an outlet is not up to code because the breaker cannot protect the wires if there is a power source after the breaker. You could potentially overdraw on that circuit and melt the wires without tripping the breaker in your service panel. Drawing 15A from your service panel and 10A from your solar panels on the same circuit would overload your 20A circuit. The breaker only sees the 15A draw and will not trip. Just do your maths and if possible for safety, don't draw any power on a circuit that has one of these plugged in especially if you're producing over 1kw.
If the system is on a dedicated circuit Wouldn't the 15amp panel breaker protect the wire? Now I think a inline fuse/breaker at the inverter would also be a good idea at the inverter because it also supplies power.
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I built a home set up with a 600 watt inverter. Y&H from Walmart used a gift card from work so it was only $45. Bought 2 panels 250 watts for 8$5 for both from a solar installer. They where removed for an upgrade or expansion. It knocked $100 of my monthly summer electric bill which can get as high as $380 per month. I have them facing south and at 28 degrees of elevation. Full sun I am getting 370 watts, they are old panels and brand new ones would produce more. I am thinking of expanding with more panels but stay under my grid tie inverters 600 rating. I used a power strip with surge protection where the inverter plugs into my home and have an inline fuse on the power coming in from the panels wired in parallel. I can even install a GFI outlet for the standard one that will cut out if there was ever a power surge from the panels. I used a very small desk fan that is 5 watts to help keep the inverter cool in my garage. It never overheated and overheating is what causes electrical devices to breakdown.
Would be interesting to see a little video on this setup.
@@Magiciansandmagicvideos I'm no UA-camr. I did add a timer to a water hose that sprays down the panels a few times during the hottest part of the day. When the panels get too hot the energy produced actually drops. Been in the 100's in Texas. Easy loss of 100+ watts during the hottest part of the day when you think your producing the most. I built my stsyem as an experiment just to see how much it helped. The energy loss from heat is why roof systems have more panels than people think you should need. The heat also breaks down the panels and you lose efficiency. So if it takes 10 years to pay of your system you have a system that produces less than your requirements. The only work around is to upgrade your inverter much higher than you need and add more panels every couple of years to make up for the degradation loss.
Thank you for this, and YES, please keep us posted and keep testing! SPECIFICALLY: 1) Show us the unit turning off / shutting off input once mains is off. 2) Walk through what happens in a scenario where this is not in a dedicated circuit, and other appliances may be connected, and thus circumventing the circuit breaker's job to keep wiring safe (from what I understand, these units require dedicated circuits to avoid this issue).
It is a grid following inverter and not a grid forming inverter and therefore number one is not relevant. Number two is somewhat relevant but a long shot in hell that anything would ever go bad as a result of that.
#2 is a reasonable concern. You could have an air fryer, microwave, and solar on the same feed. The two loads at the same time should trip the breaker, but with the solar feeding too, the breaker won’t trip. Got to be careful.
The inspector might say it's ok, but it's up to your energy company to approve if this grid tie inverter is allowed to be connected to the energy grid. Typically the energy companies require permits in addition to the UL1741 other certifications, and external disconnects. That said, this setup should be ok, but you may have to conceal it.
If you have a smart meter, these meters can detect energy returning to the grid the moment your energy consumption is below your production on any leg of your house. They will ping your energy company and you will get a threatening letter telling you to remove the equipment or face disconnection.
If you have an analog meter, it's slightly easier to skirt by the rules. Your main issue is the meter reader guy seeing the meter spin backwards (although they probably don't pay attention). The second issue is your usage being negative for the month, which would be somewhat hard to do with small grid tie inverters like this.
The end goal is to make your solar system to produce only enough PEAK energy to meet your IDLE house demands, but nothing more. Once you product more than you consume at any given moment, you'll run into issues.
I'm debating whether to do this, so I can get the solar tax credit, though my roof isn't really oriented the right direction for sun exposure.
I can see where you are coming from however I can see this as being useful for those with non-North facing windows or balconies that live in apartment or condo complexes. Or even those who rent and can not do a permanent install. This wouldn't offset their entire use but could help in decrease their use.
Just think if every south facing unit in a single apartment building were to use this to offset 1/3 of their yearly electric use what that would do for the grid.
Yes, not having the proper UL and other certifications would be of extreme hinderance in getting approval from the Utility. Also not having proper external disconnects. However, again if on an apartment complex those must have a master building disconnect somewhere or a dedicated transformer the utility would trip their own circuit breaker on, Looks like a little fuse between 2 power lines.
he is feeding 120-volt power back to one leg in his house hopefully it is in phase with power company and the other leg is still drawing full power separately. so meter won't spin backwards since it goes by whichever leg is higher.
Great comment, and spot on!!!
@@ranger178you are 100 percent false and don’t understand how a split phase utility transformer works. The utility will know and will fine and stop the customer from operating the inverters.
what is false and how is utility going to know he is feeding it wrong? only smart meters have any feedback otherwise it is just a mechanical spinning meter@@keithpvbatt2040
For the viewers. The support system shown is for his testing purpose. The conductors behind the solar panels must be protected or above 8’-0”. The cord used is not sunlight rated. In a real install, the receptacle should be at the inverters, not just some random receptacle and a cord laying across the lawn.
We've been running an on-grid inverter for over five years. Can use multiple panels in series or parallel, and plugs into any house mains socket. Total cost was around US$100 (+ same for each of 6 panels) ROI was less than 18 months... Providing you don't live in the US, where anything Chinese is banned or taxed beyond reach.
Thanks for the feedback. Is your inverter the same brand?
I have two of Ecoflow Powerstreams and I must say that I really like how well it works and they don't get very hot at all!
I actually only heard of the Powerstream the other day as they don't offer it here in the US or Canada. Those units would be perfect and I also had good luck with EcoFlow over the years. Thanks for the feedback!
Wow he got 1Kwh in 2hours.. lets say 12hours sunlight would provide 6khw a day.. That would fully charge my electric vehicle (42kwh) in one week😮
Summer sun is starting here, longer days and so on. Now Im starting to see a full potentional.
10 first days in April, til today, Ibe generated 55kWh.
Aproximately systen generated daily 5 to 6 kWh. And it was fairly sunny.
Also, I have to mention that my panels arent oriented fully to south.
But more of like west/south.
So, my setup is:
600w powerstream with 2x400w Ecoflow rigid panels oriented to west, almost flat down at 5 degree angle.
800W powerstream with 2x435W bifacial panels oriented to south with 10 degree angle and white metal roof which reflects sun to them too.
River2Max with 2x100w panels in parallel, connected to powerstream so that when battery is over 80% it discharges its energy to powerstream and to the house apliances.
@@vedranart +/- €200,- extra monthly income 🤑Safing money(fixed costs)🔋 is almost same as creating a monthly revenue.🤑🔋🤷🏾♂️
@@vedranart How do you connect two powerstreams to one river2 max? also only saw about powerstream toonight (south africa), they have started selling them here... seems like you would need the smart plug as well to determine where current needs to go. be interesting to see video of your setup.
I've got a couple of these sorts of microinverters. Mostly for testing how bad they are. And they do work, but most of them do have major gotchas and issues. Y&H is a major brand for these sorts of things and you are right, there are likely onl two actual OEMs.
* These devices are mostly not current limited. I think they are somewhat temperature limited, but at too high a temperature. If you plug in too much solar they will happily over-produce until something fries.
* These devices have VERY POOR efficiencies. They market high efficiencies but the actual efficiencies are generally around 80%-85%. Very very poor. Real micro-inverters have efficiencies above 97%. And you can tell by how hot these suckers get.
* These devices as sold are often mis-labeled with regards to voltage, power, and current capabilities.
* A 120VAC AC output is just putting power back on one leg... only one of the HOTs coming into the house from the utility (there are two, for 240VAC) is having power returned on it. Of course, you are also limited by the household plug. But still, it is not ideal. So at least try to match what the microinverter is pushing with other household loads that are on that leg.
* YOU CAN OVERLOAD A HOUSE CIRCUIT WITHOUT TRIPPING THE BREAKER. THIS CAN CAUSE A FIRE AND BURN DOWN YOUR HOUSE! How? Lets say you have the circuit wiring with household plugs going from A to B to C to D to the 15A subpanel breaker. Now lets say you plug the micro-inverter into C and you are pushing 1000W. Now lets say that you turn something on at B which eats 1200W. So far so good. The breaker only sees 200W and the B-C segment has 1200W on it. But now lets say you turn something on at A which also eats 1200W. Now the breaker is only delivering 1400W to the circuit but the "B-C" segment of the wiring has 2400W running through it. Bad end.
What this means is that if you do use something like this, either severely limit the amperage it pushes back to the grid (to less than 500W is my recommendation), or ensure that it is on a dedicated circuit. Normally grid-tie inverters are required to be on dedicated circuits.
* These units do not track waveform deformations due to inductive loads very well. From what I can tell, they literally just push a synchronized sine wave instead of doing 4-quadrant matching, so in terms of dealing with reactive power they might be making a mess out of the waveform or they might be overheating themselves trying to work against the reactive power on the waveform without realizing it. So YMMV if you have an A/C system running.
* These devices will operate with line voltages that are way out of spec. They are designed for broad compatibility across several countries. But the high-side of the range they will push the line voltage to is probably too high.
* These units are NOT UL1741 or UL1741SA certified. It isn't even close. UL1741 is the certification required for grid-tie. These units will shut-down if the grid goes down, sure, but not being certified means that these units do not follow safety protocols for grid restarts (for example). Among many other issues.
My conclusion is that for someone just messing around with a few hundred watts, these things do work fairly well. But don't trust them beyond that. Certainly not with the large array you connected that thing to in your example. And be damn careful not to overload whatever circuit you plug them into. Don't share a circuit with a room that someone might plug a space heater into, for example.
I have a detached shed I just trenched dedicated power to on 12awg and a 20a breaker. I wanted to use this setup to charge power tools, yard lights, and when excess is produced help with the offset idle house usage or push back to the grid. If make an outlet just for the inverter, would this be a pretty safe and savvy setup? Would throwing a GFCI on the outlet help and/or creating a sub panel breaker box in the shed help for safety? I already have a professionally installed solar system on my house so I’m already approved to push back to the grid. My electrical usage is increasing from when I first got my array installed so I’ve been wanting to expand my array and DIY it. Thought throwing 2 400w panels on the roof of my shed would be sweet with this little inverter. And make use of the shed roof real estate.
@@kylezane2718 Throwing 2 x 400W panels on your shed is an excellent idea. That alone would be enough to charge power tools and run (LED) yard lights in the evening.
Usually when people do that they tie the panel into a small power station, or build a small charge controller + LiFePO4 battery + inverter system for it. And don't trench AC to the out-building at all.
But since you trenched AC to your shed already, you want to know if you could put one of these micro-inverters in and tie it to the trenched AC? The answer is yes, as long as the topology is done right.
* The trenched AC line should be on a dedicated circuit from the house, not shared with anything else. It is ok if the circuit hangs off a sub-panel though. 120VAC is fine but make sure a ground is also run (3-wire... hot, neutral, ground).
* GFCI breakers area good idea. Certainly at least the breaker in the house panel that runs to the trench should be a GFCI breaker for safety to catch shorts to ground.
* Put an additional small sub-panel in the shed.
* Tie the micro-inverter into the sub-panel through an appropriate breaker. Make sure it has ventillation.
* And tie other garage plugs into the sub-panel through appropriate breakers. GFCI plug(s) are a good idea.
Beyond that, you have to make the determination as to whether you trust the micro-inverter itself. That part is on you. I personally don't trust these micro-inverters very much, I have a metal box with fans that I stuff mine into when I use it. But my preference these days is to put together a small solar + battery system instead and not mess with the grid at all.
I’ve got a few similar inverters that I’ve been running a few months on a temporary setup. They definitely shut down a lot from overheating. We’ll see how long they last.
Yeah, I want to push it a bit (higher outside temp and closer to 1200 Watts) and takes some images with the FLIR camera to see what the skin temp is getting up to at or close to the shutdown. Seems like that is the major complaint and you have to think that would impact the overall life. Thanks for the feedback!
One could add an aluminum heat sink on the outside
@@kevinrummelhartand cooling fan
Check the house in your community ask them if their are overheating because most of the Grid tie installs are done using micro inverters. Check your setup because if yours is shutting down because of heat something is wrong at your house .
@@kevinrummelhart The housing is the heat sink, what he should do is fix his shit.
It still breaks code if the baseline load of the home is lower than the power generation, at least in the state of California. You need a utility contract to legally backfeed into the grid.
You honestly will just be charged for production as most meters that aren't built for solar charge for biderectional power
Well, for the last 23 years I've been doing exactly this. Unless they (the utilities) actually check they will never find out. It's all monopoly politics since any excess generated electrons will simply go to your neighbors. Also, most inverters now can prevent export with a CT clamp. In California, practically anything you do in your house is against code - unless, of course, you've paid the city some money on which they can tax you.
You people clearly didnt watch the video. It cant back feed
I have the smaller version. I have ran it hard and hot for over 2 years now and still works
Thanks for the feedback 👍
I ordered the 600 watt version and hooked it up to a two-panel "test" array using salvaged 395 watt panels that I got for free. The build quality of the inverter's aluminum case actually looked quite nice. I noticed that there are finned heat sinks built into the top and bottom ends of the case. If the 1200 watt version is internally just 2 of these units that are stacked vertically into one case, then they are reducing the heat sink area by a full 50% per watt, which could be why they are prone to overheating? Also, with the two-panel 600 watt version, you may only need 1 PV cable extension as the other three panel leads will reach the microinverter directly. The digital display is also nice looking and has a button to turn on/off internal backlighting, but it is obviously made to be panel mounted (into a water tight enclosure - will have to think of a solution for that; maybe a small tupperware type container as others have said). And yes, the 120v version is only going to deliver power one leg of the main panel. I also already have a permitted roof top solar system and the test array is connected to that system's combiner box so I am not sure what the AHJ / utility company would say if you just plugged some of these into the outlets of a random house.
Thanks for the feedback. If you are bringing it into your combiner box you should be good. Depending on your utility and net metering setup they might want to cap you at a percentage over your normal usage. My utility does not want you to surpass 120% of your normal energy usage.
They will say that is not included in the agreement that you sign as a result your small generation system is in violation and you have x time to correct it or we will take necessary action to correct it. Disconnection
That is a system they are using in Germany they call it balkonkraftwerk / balcony power plant it connected directly into the power outlet an it shuts off every few milliseconds to measure if they still current in the system so it can't shock you if it did not feel the power then it will shut off
Exactly! Thanks for the feedback.
In Germany they are limited to 600 watt
@@wernerheilig4905you could get a few of them.
We had a solar system professionally installed for our home. They used AP Systems QS1 inverters which also have 4 inputs. The output is 240v and after going through a cutoff switch ties directly into the main power input of our home. The system has been running now for 8 months. I can monitor the output of each panel or of the system on my iPhone.
Hi, just watch out for the DC Company noting you back feed. The EU allows up to 500w in but they go off when the grid goes down for safety.
They are good and just keep working in the background powering the loads you have and reduce your bills.
Combine it with a battery and a charge controller and you could have power 24 hrs a day. It works.
Good for all those parasitic loaded and thing you have on during the day.
Take care M.
The inverters you have are the same thing as these companies are pushing as plug and play. They function exactly the same way because they are the same thing. They just added a led display on a cable and a standard plug . They can get two of these same units and plug one into each phase then they will be feeding into both phases. Your system will go down just like theirs when the Grid goes down to prevent islanding.
@@markeh1971 What watch out, his system was approved and professionally installed using the same types of mirco inverters. Most grid tie installations now are done using Micro Inverters.
I would turn off the main breaker and see if it also shuts down and make sure it doesn't actually continue to output power if the grid is down.
Plug and play solar is an interesting topic. Since these will shut off during a grid outage, it follows that transfer switches are going to be an interesting topic as well. I mean whatever type will let you keep using your solar and possibly a generator and maybe also a battery during a grid outage. I'm sure there will be more of those coming out, I hope you keep an eye on that for us.
They can't use transfer switches because with out power on their grid circuit they will not turn on. Anti islanding
Just got the 600w one. Need to find the right panels to fit it and I will be setting it up. Can't wait to see how it all does.
I believe that in Europe this is known as a Balcony Solar system. What I would like to know is: How will the power company react if they see power going out to the grid and there is no net metering agreement in place.
Good question on the utility. That is what I am working through now and will share the results.
They will charge you for production
I installed one that over produced, the client had bills higher than before solar install
in denmark you need to instal a meter for exporting to the grid, if you want grid connected solar...
these are not legal in denmark even if you have a meter for exporting...
but in germany you just plug these thing in without anything
the companys that owns the local grid, can tell you the local rules
to go out you would need to have a higher voltage than theirs. If you plug a 9 volt battery into your cars fuse box it is not going to charge the cars battery unless it falls under 9V.
FYI if you produce more power than you are using in the home at any time you can be charged for it as usage. Some if not all modern meters count up regardless of direction of flow. I have similar setup and I tested it. So be careful of how much power you make with these setups.
This was my biggest worry also. I have a small home but have small window AC's that run constantly. I tested two of the smaller two panel units. Both units only lasted 3 and 4 months. I live in south Florida. I wouldn't recommend them unless you create a way to add active thermal management. Example, water cooled with a heat sink in hot environments. They come with a warranty but you have to ship them back to China which is half to 2/3 the cost of the unit. If you live in more northern states just be careful in the summer. That's my two cents.
This is the most important comment
@@jeremyvandervort I left you a lengthy reply on my setup earlier and apparently YT deleted it. Long story short mine is an inside unit with fans made in both ends. You run you DC inside. I have had 8 and at times 10 100watt panels on it for a year and a half with no problems in my shop sometimes reaching 110 degrees. It was only $119. I'm not sure of the efficiency of it but it seems durable. I can put up an item number if you'd like to see the type of it.
@@bw3506can you share what unit you used? I’m interested in something like this for my detached garage that I just trenched dedicated power to and want to tie in this inverter to offset idle house usage costs.
This would be really cool for small setups in rentals, like if you have a south facing balcony
@@MrSummitville guess it depends on the cost of your panels & the sunlight you can get, usually 5-7 years.
I would be interesting to see if you could run 2 of these setups in parallel and with a big UPS. Then also test the power cutoff by flipping the breaker on the curcit that the extension cord is plugged into. Great video!
Very informative and well put together........ Very Professional......... In my case I have already had 4 x 250W panels for 7 years and have been very successful........... Currently on my two new apts I am fitting 2 x VEVOR Solar Grid Tie Micro Inverters 1200W for my 4 x 440watt panels. My thoughts are that although rated at 1200 watt I will be running 880 watts through each inverter....and in addition will be using a solar fan to keep inverters cooler.......... because even if the inverter is rated at 1200 it seems to me if its working at only 2/3rds its maximum power it will thank you for it by increased power....... cooler is better.
there was a company in Arizona that was making a panel you could buy for a while. you just pluged it in and it would automatically shut down for a power outage. when I tried to find the company on line they were out of business before they got started. If you are feeding back through a circut on your house you would not want to exceed 1800 watts and that would be running the max your curcut is rated for.
So imagine someone buys 2 of these. Each one is supplying power to the house. The grid goes out but each unit sees the power is on in the house because the other unit is on. Isnt that going to put utility workers at risk?
Looking at the info page, Both the 110v and 220v do feedback to the grid extra power. So you need to have your meter setup with your power company to handle it or you will have problems. This also means you will need permits to install it.
Absolutely amazing, if the bugs could be worked out, this could be truly revolutionary. Most potential for any new product I can think of right now besides AI. If someone truly figures this out and gets the necessary certifications and or patents, they will make bank$$$. Gotta imagine the electric company won’t be too happy and probably has a reason why this is not allowed, but if you could, it would be a game changer.
Dude Micro Inverters don't have any bugs as you are thinking to be worked out, they are in full use all over the world and in United States of America. Seem everyone in the UA-cam video is trying to reinvent the wheel . Clearly the host don't know what he is talking about, he should have down some research, consulted an installer of Grid tie systems . Nonsense
Seems like best use is to charge batteries, then run devices off of the batteries.
Thus no illegal tie in .
That is what I do.
I do that too. Using four 225 ahr Trojan lead acid batteries, I have a 120v 3000 watt Renogy inverter to a Generac 6 bank transfer switches for 3/4 of the house 100% of the time which includes the refrigerator (each circuit can be switched to the grid if needed). Then, I have an Aims 4000 watt 240 volt inverter plugged into the generator plug (which feeds a transfer switch on the main panel) to energize other circuits such as the washing machine, dishwasher, air conditioner. I also have a cheap harbor freight 120 volt 2000 watt square wave inverter to only heat a 1500 watt 120 volt water heater element in a preheater water heater (that feeds a propane water heater), which has a 6 hour spring wound timer to energize the heater. I have reduced my power bill by 90% (and propane bill by 60%) with no grid tie inverters. My system is all isolated from the grid. In the foothills of N. CA we lose power about a week or two a year, so I have full off grid capability, especially if I run the generator one hour a day during storms. I may have around 10,000 watts of assorted panels, some are bifacial that stand up vertically facing east/west. They do not accumulate snow in the winter and still charge the batteries without brushing them off. Because of the assortment of panels, I have around 3 to 5 panels connected to each Victron charge controller, I have around 10 charge controllers and I suppose 40 or so panels. Groups of panels face different directions for different times of the year and different times of the day, such as afternoon summer air conditioning power.
do yourself a favor and get a Hybrid inverter
Not illegal here. Everything on this side of the meter is MINE.
@@steverturnsk6190 love your water preheating tank implementation. That is a simple, safe, worry free solution for someone to play with a few solar panels lying around to use with this dodgy Chinese inverter, without even risking plugging it into the house. Thanks for sharing your topography, very nice setup and clear description!
There are also available more efficient direct DC heating elements too, or maybe they are just AC elements, I forget. I think they might all be DV elements, because they are simple resistive elements. In any case, one must be correctly match the element's OHM value to the power feeding them, in order to get that extra DC efficiency. I believe when hooked directly, you may not even need an inverter! People will do this for their RV tank with a spare 100w solar panel. Just a FYI for anyone thinking of using direct solar DC to power a water heating element. There are charts and maybe some math on the UA-cam videos.
I.e. Search "ohm matching element" returns: "How to Use Solar Panels and Ohms Law to drive DC loads directly! Solar Electric 101" ,"Solar Power Edge" Chanel
Dude that system plugged directly into an Anker battery or something similar would be awesome. Could power my garage
Ingenious idea. Doing this would not have occurred to me.
Better to use an off grid string inverter on a critical circuits panel with grid input when battery and solar isn’t sufficient. The power is clean and you have100% self consumption. The technology has advanced greatly and is not expensive.
I setup a system almost identical to this one. It’s worked flawless the 3+ years it’s been in service.
Nice, thanks for the feedback!
I am assuming the circuit MUST sense and synchronize itself to the power grid like expensive systems. However, I have 3 concerns...
Concern 1) I would highly recommend stressing that connecting the way it comes is against the code and could be DEADLY! All you need is a kid (or adult) coming by and unplugging it. I suppose it could be meant to only output if it senses grid power but is that the case???? Just too much risk IMHO. Of course a "regular" male plug is also very dangerous on the house side, so that isn't the answer either. Maybe they make a special no exposed contact connector???
Concern 2) The danger of backfeeding the power grid... I suppose the same safety feature I mentioned for concern 1 MIGHT take care of that in theory?
Concern 3) As someone else mentioned, with both the solar and grid able to supply power, the normal breaker protecting that circuit could in theory supply more than it's rated current... The amount from the breaker AND whatever solar can supply. It should feed a dedicated circuit IMHO.
Thanks for your videos. Please take this as constructive feedback. (Note: I am NOT a licensed electrician.)
Properly designed follower-inverters have to continuously monitor line voltage and current to keep their output current in-phase with the grid. The inverter is basically acting like an AC current source and on disconnect, its output voltage will surge from no longer having a load to dump current into. It has to immediately shut down to avoid self-destruction.
In the case of an utilities-side power failure, follower-inverters aren't capable of maintaining a stable waveform on their own and should shut down as soon as they detect that line voltage isn't anywhere near sinusoidal, not the correct frequency, not the correct amplitude, etc. Also, when power goes out, those inverters would suddenly need to offset 10s of kVA worth of distribution transformer reactance that may still be in-circuit on top of all of the loads those are connected to. This makes it impossible for follower-inverters to keep current in phase with voltage and should cause them to shut down much faster than AC motors will stop back-feeding into the grid while spinning down.
On the hottest days mine would overheat. I made a passive cooling system that has worked well. Basically the inverter is enveloped in a thin layer of plastic and placed in a box lifted off the bottom so there is air flow. On the top is Basically a 1 gallon bag of water that acts as a heat sink. I also usevan Emporia smart plug to monitor energy production and did not install the non weather proof device they included. I have solar on my home already and permits from that with the power company.
Did you put this on a dedicated circuit or plug it in with another used line on the house? How did you set yours up? Are you maxing it out at 1200w with 4 panels? I also have solar but want to expand and update. I just trenched 12awg to my detached shed on a 20a breaker to charge tools, run yard lights and want to further offset my idle house usage and thought this would be great to use the sheds roof real estate and pop 2 400w panels o.n top. Hopefully that shouldn’t overwhelm the inverter.
Im capable of doing it myself but want to make sure I don’t overload my circuit. I thought about installing a dedicated gfci outlet to the inverter and maybe even a sub panel breaker box in the shed for added fault protection.
Do you think the emporia smart plug nice to see the specific production from that unit? With your house solar are you able to monitor and notice the additional production on the separate panels producing as well? I have SolarEdge to monitor my house solar.
The biggest thing is if you don't have your home electric meter setup to send power to the grid, if you do send power to the grid, you'll get billed like you were using that energy. Now if you are staying under the output of this, then you are fine. Well....might have some code questions, but the setup would work.
Great video! I have been using Grid Tied invertors for over 2 years with mixed results. Obviously, without storage it is only useful producing power while the sun is out and your home is asking for use. You can attach grid tied invertors to different legs of your system to enable useful power wherever it is needed.
My next step is to add battery storage and either DC or AC couple the system, but I am far from having that knowledge and/or money to get there.
What do you mean by attaching grid tied inverters to different legs of your system? Does that mean you’re only getting solar power to the part of your house that the solar is attached to under that circuit breaker? I thought if you plug it into any part on your house it can produce power anywhere even to an application which on usually on their own breakers?
I’m asking because I have a solar system on my house but am looking to expand. Specifically I have a detached shed I just trenched dedicated power to on 12awg and a 20a breaker. I wanted to use this setup to charge and run power tools, yard lights, and when excess is produced help with the offset idle house usage or help my residential solar push back to the grid and increase my offset credits. So curious if this will work if it’s attached to a dedicated breaker but shouldn’t it still push power access the rest of the house or back to the grid?
@@kylezane2718 When I started in solar, I watched many videos and this one was pretty good explaining separate 'legs' or phases when using grid tie inverters. ua-cam.com/video/aBgwf3wCEA8/v-deo.html
I actually have a shed that houses 2 of my grid tie inverters and I wired 2 outlets, one on each side of the breaker panel, so it would feed each leg. 1300 watts on one and 400 watts on the other, using a 600 watt GTI and a 1300 watt GTI. Theoretically, I can be producing a little bit of power on each leg that could be offsetting power consumption of my 240 volt pool pump, as it take it's hot for each leg.
@@KantuskiProbably should have said both legs or used "phases" instead of legs.
Legs sound like branches and a branch is the circuit after the breaker.
At first I thought you didn't understand how the fuse box works when you said "different circuits" because there are only two phases to match or worry about. The video you pointed to made me understand it was a terminology issue.
Id like to see if heat sinks added. Would it make a diffrence?
if it overheats just get some thermal epoxy , a large heatsink that covers a whole side , some fans and a DC Buck Converter rated to >50v. Epoxy the heatsink to the back side, mount the fans to heatsink, power fans from the buck converter connected to one of the solar panels.
or power from the fans ac out, so the fans run only when power is on
Ridiculous! That's called Hackman ship
@@Riceman-o1p the only other way is to open it up, find the components that are over heating, build a custom heat sink and cooling system within the space or expand the space, then tap into the existing power.
Enphase microinverters in use on balconies all over the city of Paris. Two modules, two micros. Rare for a balcony with space for 4 modules. modules are rarely optimally positioned. Horizontal in fact. Critical weather sensitive components protected at the plug location.
Does the inverter synchronize the AC frequency with the frequency of the Grid’s power?
Yes.
Just found your Channel and subscribed, great video. This is an interesting setup I've never heard of it before. Definitely want to learn more
Welcome to the channel 👍
@@MrSummitville Always welcome feedback but is there a specific part of the code you are referencing?
Imagine being savvy enough to create a water cooler like we see in PC builds for CPUs on this thing? I'm just imagining sapping a wee bit of that power produced in order to use a DIY water cooler setup to keep these temps safe for these units.
For me, the most interesting part was how much it produced.
I understood it to be basically 1/2 kilowatt hour per hour of operation.
Our electricity here is fairly "cheap" at 10 cents per KW HOUR.
that's 5 cents per hour x say 8 hours per day or say $12/ month or $250/ year.
How long will my ROI be?
If I have no equipment failures, etc?
Yeah, I have another one I am testing in the coming weeks which hopefully will have a reasonable ROI. This setup wouldn't make much sense for those of us paying around $0.10 per kWh.
In Europe, this type of micro inverter is approved for outputs of 600W to 800W. A normal 230V socket is used for this.
In Germany, only tested devices that are safe can be connected. In Germany, the devices must have two shutdown devices. On the one hand, there are the MOSFETs, and on the other hand, there is a built-in relay.
Even if the plug is pulled out during full operation, the bare contacts are safe to touch.
The Enphase micro inverters are not approved for use on a socket in Germany.
These are only approved for permanent connection.
All devices larger than 800W are required to have a permanent connection.
Wonder if you could use this with a pure sine wave inverter on a off-grid microgrid instead? or with something such as a bluetti or ecoflow? That way you avoid the possible legal issues that may arise with your power company or other organizations.
A micro inverter can only be coupled to an off-grid inverter that has the AC coupling function. The Victron line has equipment like this. The problem is that the inverters monitor the output voltage and the microinverter increases that voltage when coupling and causes problems in the off-grid inverter.
watched a kid use a cheap car inverter to put a sine wave into wall outlet. It worked. don't need a pure sine waive, just something going up and down. Would be interesting how dirty a step will still work. 3 bit step, crossover top, crossover bottom.......
Really need to invest in a solid extension cord and I would put it into a 20 amp circuit for some extra margin. Also a lot of electric providers require a separate disconnect.
I've heard of "suicide cords" but this is the first "suicide inverter" I've seen. This should be hard wired to a breaker in a panel not plugged into a wall outlet.
What happens if the power output of the array exceeds the power usage of the home? Some smaller houses may not have a baseline usage of more than what a 1200 watt array can output. Then you end up exporting without any kind of export agreement or allowance from the utility.
How quick is it to turn off when the power from the grid gets cut off?
So many potential issues...
I just realized that this is also going to dump power to only one leg of the panel too... so not only do you have to make sure it never produces more than the base load of the house, it has to not exceed the base load of the LEG IT'S ON to prevent backfeeding. Oy...
It will not power up until it has a supply into it.
The cord is dead until you plug it into an outlet.
The inverter has to get a waveform from the grid to match it so to not cause a mismatch. 60hz for USA I believe
@@markmmm1737 None of your points address the valid concerns raised by teseract. teseract is talking about illegally pushing electrons on to the grid, and unsafely pushing too much power onto a single leg. Also, using this device violates the terms of your house insurance because it's not certified. Great idea, but it's a beta - use it on buildings that do not house people.
Yes, it is hobby crap and I wouldn't spend $10 on that junk.
This thing is scary as heck. The NEC code, and UL listings are there so children, fire fighters, and power co workers dont get killed by some DIYer buying cheap junk, and doing stupid stuff with power.
Just think about this--even as a temp set up or experiment-- If you don't have a grid sellback agreement ( and where I live that adds $12 to my bill monthly) and you send a few electrons down range--and it's detected by your power company, which is likely, you're likely to be disconnected, and have some questions to answer. caveat emptor
Probably been pointed out but you do need to be aware that feeding power into a power-point needs to be done with some consideration.
Example would be the PV at the end of a circuit, a power-point mid-way on that circuit that is overloaded... The main fuse won't blow as it might be supplying the max current down that circuit. The PV will be providing max current up the current and the mid-span power-point lead could melt. :)
I think you are confused.
Minus the limiting capability and trying not to send power back to the grid this is exactly how the simplest grid tied systems work.
Maybe it's a terminology issue with "powerpoint".
The biggest mistake people do with solar is they don’t do a power audit before installing solar. I managed to reduce my monthly electric bill by around $100 just by finding all the parasitic leaks. That reduced the amount of solar needed to power my house saving me big money.
I have the same set up 1200 watt inverter I have 4-300 watt panels hook up in sunny Fl and still never went past 745 watts on any day
Thanks for the feedback!
UHHHH a code issue you say? How about getting sued by your utility for illegally back-feeding to the grid. Doesn't matter if you have RSD (which is also required by code), they are legally required to know about all power production systems, be they 1kW or 1GW, touching the grid.
You should have tested if it turns off when you lose grid power (wouldn't turning off the main breaker stimulate that?)
Agreed, I will add that to the longer test I am currently running 👍
I've been wanting to make this exact video!! So happy someone is starting to test out these "plug-in" solar panels and start the discussion on if they're a good DIY option... because if they are they could save people A LOT of upfront cost on batteries.
Great job, Scott. Just found your channel and love it. Hit me up if you ever wanna chat about solar stuff!
Yeah, I love the idea but as with most things I think we will have to run through a few different iterations before I find one that lasts, the utility approves, and my local inspector gives the green light. More videos to come for sure.
@footprinthero just sent a message through your website so we can sync up 👊
While supplying power, pull the main breakers and see if it continues to supply power to the house. If it does, it will back feed to the grid.
Yes, please test it.
wrong, it will back feed into the grid even if main breakers are on. the only time it wont back feed is if the power usage at the home is less than what the inverters are producing
This is fascinating. Plug and play solar is very common in the EU. Literally every secind home in my town has plug and play pv or normal grid tie or both. Not sure why it's a big issue in the US. In the EU, the only issue is the blackout auto disconnect. As long as the micro inverter meets this requirement, then your good. I paid about 450 dollars for a 900w system. Never overheats. Will pay for itself in 3 years, then it's pure profit.
these are not allowed in denmark..
so these are not commen in eu..
does other countrys then germany in eu allow people to just plug these in ???
@Hansen710 Austria, Germany, France, Switzerland and Liechtenstein for certain. Probably more too. Very common where I live, has been for about 5 years.
No profit since the power company will raise the rates so you pay the same you were paying for 1/3rd the power. government will never let them lose money. how would they pay them the bribes.
I tested two of the smaller two panel units. Small house with constant running window AC units. Both units only lasted 3 and 4 months. Property in south Florida. I wouldn't recommend them unless you create a way to add active thermal management. Example, water cooled with a heat sink in hot environments. They come with a warranty but you have to ship them back to China which is half to 2/3 the cost of the unit. If you live in more northern states just be careful in the summer. That's my two cents. The other issue is if you're not using all the power that they are creating because we're on smart meters in South Florida you will end up paying for the electricity that you produced.
Hey Jeremy thanks for the feedback on your experience!
Four 300W panels @ 110v produces 10 amps. That wire with the plug barely looks like 14 gauge which is able to handle 10A but I'd want 12 gauge to cut down on the wire resistance if I'm running a 100' from the panels to my home. As far as overheating goes, I remember back about 20 years ago people were putting their motherboards in mineral oil to help dissipate heat. An old plastic tool box filled with oil might be a good solution as long as you can keep water out of it.
Right now a local panel distributor is selling 240W panels for $20!! For under $700 I can get enough panels for an 8KW system.
Dang! That is a great deal on 240W. Did they repower a solar farm and that is where they got all the panels?
IMO a better and safer way to do this would be to run loads off a transfer switch so you are isolated from backfeeding to the grid. You also are less likely to get into trouble from your power company. I installed my transfer switch without an electrician.
There is no way to isolate this from the grid, the grid stimulation is what allows it to parallel into the homes electrical consumption, and only on one leg of the panel. In my opinion it will not get accepted /certified for grid tie through your power company, regardless of what an inspector says. If there is any agreement for two-way metering it usually costs at least $10 per month just to have that, grid tie at my home in Indiana is $12 monthly, so you'd have to make a lot of juice to just break even. If you send even one electron backwards without this agreement (modern meter system) you can have your service disconnected. There's so much to think about before trying this. What would be interesting is to isolate the home with a generator lockout in the main panel and create your own grid separate from the power company and add a little juice through two micros --one on each leg, to reduce the generator load. You would have to consume a the solar input as a minimum or risk generator damage though but that would be on you, without any grid to absorb any excess.
@@bruceeverett5372 a generator lockout and transfer switch operate the same way. Both options completely remove the circuits from the grid and allow them to run on an additional power source.
@@MrSummitville yes I understand.... That's why I would recommend using a different solution. Like a battery and inverter and transfer switch, not a grid tie inverter like seen in the video.
The info. On the Amazon page says keep in dry cool location, can not be in the rain and out of direct sunlight…so you might want to shelter the inverter.
Yeah, for a longer term installation I would probably try to remove the display and mount to the rail ensuring shade from the panels. Even with these changes I am feeling like this unit still will have issues rejecting heat but that is why I am going to run a longer multi-day test.
I would like to see the waveform of the power on an oscilloscope. The output waveform and the one when connected to the home load. Please keep in mind modern homes have many devices that aren't simple resistive loads. The ones that are not may not like the power provided. Using a VOM doesn't show all the elements. Who knows how the power from that inverter looks.
Sound to me like this would work well for an RV that is tied into the grid. I’m interested in the follow up videos!
Really, is an RV tied into a grid?
thank you this answered my questions about how micro inverters are installed.
Great video. I have an Enphase Grid Tied system and would like to add batteries myself. Any recommendation on how to achieve this
Oh man, that is a super common want/need right now and there isn't a great solution. Pretty much have to go through Enphase a buy another large box that will manage where the power is coming from and then but the Enphase batteries.
Sounds to me, if the grid is down do to a power outage then it would be putting out power to the grid and possibly endangering a lineman doing his job.
try adding heatsinks to disapate the heat or even a fan, the box is next to all the sun heat coming thats why its overheating
wondering if you could wire up 2 one on each 120v leg?
Please do a follow-up video on this!
You shpuld do one simple test on these: when in and powering your house, turn off your main breaker to simulate a grid fault. Do that with a light on and maybe not drawing more than what that inverter can provide at that moment.
I am actually curious if and for how long the ligh would stay on.
Edit: and if you plug in a generator in a wall socket without the mains on/off grid switch like an ats or something more manual, with the mains running or coming back... it will make some expensive noises and smells. There is no chance a regular generator would sync to grid, it will just blow whatever fuses are concerned and maybe burn something extra like itself, some cords, something in your panel.
Also, back feeding the grid with a genset is almost impossible. There are many more houses on that phase you are so you better have some serious generator power to keep your entire neighborhood, at least, powered.
In a realistic scenario, in the best case you'll just stall your genset. Second best case, your main breaker trips, insulates you from the grid and you have power whilst others don't.
Did you review the FLIR camera, performance and price? My house is cold and I'm interested in where our major heat loss spots are. Thank you.
I haven't done a dedicated review but have used it in several videos. You need to select the correct version for you phone amzn.to/3sDm4I8. I need a different one now that iPhone has USB-C 🤦♂️
i wonder if it would be useful to use a peltier device, with an extra dedicated panel, to actively cool the inverters and panels (or just a small heat pump)
So I've been looking at microinverts for a bit now, for the off-grid system I'm building. At my current stage, I've got a very small system (6x200w) panels. However I'm basically in the woods, and there's a fairly small window to the sky and there is a lot of shading issues, thus the microinverters would help in that each panel (or 2s wired panels) would give full output anytime they are in full sun, regardless of what the other panels are doing. The thinking is to feed the 120vac into the grid connection, in this case of an EG4 3k/48 all in one. However I just got that system up and running, and need to check if there is any ac on the ac input terminals with nothing connected. If not, then these would not work (unless I trick it)
Here's a thought for those using this type of microinverter, on a batteryless, grid-tied situation. If you can isolate your home wiring from the grid (such as is used with a generator under those connections) and feed some, even small amount of 120vac 60hz power onto it, maybe from a small "solar generator", then perhaps the panels would see this and come on line and take some or much of the reduced load of the house, leaving the "solar generator" more or fully charged until the sun goes down. Just thinking out loud.
I don't see in the specs where it says it will shut off if the house power cuts off and I find that suspect. You need to test that feature and see how fast it cuts off power. That would also negate any benefit for an emergency power system as it won't work in a blackout.
Agreed, I will test that functionality on the next test where I let it run for a couple weeks.
What happens if you use 15 amps from your grid breaker and another 15 amp from this on the same circuit?
Wires become an in-wall heater. Perfect for those cold winter days!
I would think it best to only put this on a dedicated circuit.
Well said! It's rare that some people actually have a grasp on this.
6:48 So, if you open the main breaker, the micro inverter unit's output goes to zero? Easy for you to test that.
Id like to use something like this to power a space heater on a mini closed circuit, that would offset other forms of heating and since home is partially heated by resistance electrical heating benefit would be the same as backfeeding yhe grid but with few/no safety issues or legal issues ultimately the best use would be to heat water in the hot water heater with resistance heating element since the water acts like a battery of sorts storing energy to be used later.
Islanding is creating an island of power in an off grid scenario. Grid tie inverters require anti-islanding technology to prevent creating an island of power when the grid goes down.
Does UL 1741 call out the requirements for the anti-islanding?
@@everydaysolar Minimally take a moment to read the UL1741 description. Grid tie inverters are referred to as interactive inverters. But, I'm not an electrician so do with that information as one wants.
I have these only in the 240v version. I have 12 of them on ground mounts outside. I have them go directly into two main panels to 240v 50amp breakers. they work great except the overheating that does shut them down. I have had failures and replacements.
Wow, now that is a setup!
if you have one lying around and not in use most of the time, could you connect a foldable/portable solar panel (jackery/bluetti/etc) to one of those microinverters and plug it into an outlet in your home the same way?
and if you already have a grid tied solar system with net metering, would there be any way the electric company could tell the difference (if there is any) between power coming from your regular panels vs that portable panel?
4:00 You can't take those temperature readings at face value. FLIR attachment no different than handheld IR thermometer. Every material has its own emissivity. While FLIR displays are certainly informative, the temperature readings are... well, to be technical, accurate without being precise.
I get different readings in the same spot on my solar thermal setup, depending if I'm pointing at bronze or stainless; the fluid passing through each, is the same temperature I assure you. If I really want to know the temp of my glycol solution, I use a quality thermometer with a thermowell immersed in the fluid, i.e. permanent installation, at each monitoring point.
Those little color-changing stick-on aquarium thermometers are surprisingly accurate, because they're calibrated to the emissivity of glass. I use two: one in the substrate, another at the waterline.
Those aquarium thermometers are precise, without being accurate. The "display" kinda buffers water-temp changes, iow, not up-to-the-minute accurate. But precise, over the five minutes it takes to react to changing water temperature behind the glass.
Legion solar has a great set up.
does this inverter have capability to match the house phase, so it is not putting power out of phase fighting the grid power?
My buddy has a hybrid car. Could he use this to charge his car?
Sure why not. Let me know how it went..
Very interested in this, Couple things that I see as potential problems/Questions.
1. As others have mentioned while its code compliant in my area (Michigan) you can't backfeed to the grid with out power company approval and they won't allow anything not UL listed. You might be able to get around this if you have an existing solar system and just use this to add additional power.
2. What would happen if I had this plugged into my house and grid goes down but power still is on due to my existing solar and batteries? Would this damage my main inverter?
If it doesn’t produce enough power to back feed into the grid what’s the problem? It has a monitor system that will dropout if the grid goes down .pay attention to what he says😮
Your link is wrong for the 1200w one, and it is properly priced compared to the US, the 600W one is over priced compared to the US. I also do affiliate links, but I do Canada and USA ones, so I always check if the seller is overcharging in Canada (a lot do)
Everyday Solar what is a Grid Tied Micro Inverter? Explain the difference between what you have here and a Grid Tie Micro Inverter found on professionally installed homes and businesses. Can you publish the specs of your device and a 1200 Watt Grid Tied Micro Inverter .
The big difference with this unit is the output is 120V as compared to something like an Enphase which is 240V. Here is the Y&H Micro Inverter I used which will include the rest of the specs amzn.to/3QZFcrQ
Their instructions say do not exceed 1200 watts of total panel (max of 300 watts/panel), seems like it work with 4 of your over 300 watts panels.
Yeah, the integrated charge controller is just reducing the input current maxing the 360W panels out at 300W.
@@everydaysolar may I ask, is it possible to back feed it thru the solar generator like the ecoflow delta pro? If it works it would be a good option to charge your delta pro and also it can be use to test the used pv panel your buying if it works. I have bought used panel that I tested with a voltage meter but when I got home, it will not work with my gridtie inverter, even though voltage was ok.
Interesting piece of tech. My only concern is about future insurance claims given it’s not UL approved. Question: could two inverter units be used to augment 240 split phase (eg one inverter for L1 and another for L2? )
how does this work if you already have net metering? I've had solar for 11 years pumping back to the grid. Overall I've paid the system back and additional monies but realized they are paying me the wholesale rate for electricity I produce but charging me full price of course for what I use.
I'm now settng up a Delta Pro Max with 18kwh storage. Trying to figure out how I can charge and then use that energy to offset the crazy pricing they are doing. If I can just charge from solar an then feed from the Delta back into the grid via a 240 v that would be great. 🙂
You must not connect an inverter to anything but a dedicated branch circuit. Having any other devices on the branch risks overloading the circuit should a fault develop.
I'm just thinking outloud here, in a written sense, but say you had a fully off-grid setup already in use at your home or property. Presuming you have a loads panel and that feeds one or more 120v outlets, could you connect this string inverter to that outlet, where it will sense the voltage from your off-grid setup, and start feeding that system with the energy it produces? Seems like this could be a very good way of adding more peak demand capacity, like running an AC unit during hot days or a resistive heater on cold days?
You risk frying your existing off grid inverter if you back feed into it with micro inverters. Don't do it man.
Off-Grid Garage ( Charging my battery from almost anywhere with this grid tie micro inverter and the Victron Multiplus )
So, what I don't get is: why is it an issue if you push energy onto the grid with this system. So, if these panels produce more than your house consumes it'll push energy to the grid. That is exactly the same as what "normal" solar panels do, right?
I would be interested in having a plug in wind mill. No need to produce vast amounts of energy. Just for the sake of experimenting about max 100 Watt of energy would be really interesting. And that is manageable to feed to an outlet.
I’m suprised that this video is only 6 months old. Grid tied micro inverters have been a thing for quite some time (years) now in europe.
That's what he says at about 8:55.
1: Having those exposed AC terminals (especially outdoor conditions) is an awful idea. That power meter should just be bypassed.
2. There's no safe way to plug this into a house, I just don't know how much I trust that the inverter will shut down when power goes off or it's unplugged.
3. There is the potential to overload the circuit it's plugged into. You could potentially draw 30 amps through the receptacle and some of the wiring without the panel breaker tripping. It should be plugged into it's own dedicated circuit, or preferably right to a breaker.
4. Would be nice if US residential was all 240V single phase, it would make circuit distribution easier and cheaper. You could run 14 gauge to almost every circuit and not have to worry about panel leg imbalance.
I think its great that your doing this video. You would be better off to not feed the whole house and just use a sepperate outlet not connected to house. Then you wouldnt have to worry about back feed issues. The avarage person has no clue as to how to set up and solor system let alone what you are suggesting. The other thing is just because your solor is producing thousands of killiowatt doesnt mean your bennifiting from that production. The electric companys constantly monitor the power to increase or decrease power. Does a solor sytem cause the power company more supply issues? It sees like it would. Washing ton state has a intresting set up for charging your car. Mabe you could talk about that?
i was told by a friend if my local company senses surplus power backfeeding to the smart meter without a net metering agreement they will cut your service and potentially come after you. i am looking into a zero export device to keep surplus power from hitting the meter.
I am sure every utility would handle it differently but when I contacted my utility company they would not allow a net metering agreement but also weren't worried about back feeding if the power was on.
Anyway it has a build in safety system and with max 600w plug and play its pretty safe. So with the micro Inverters safety system that monitors if there is power in the grid before delivering power, would it be possible to plug it into a portable power station..?
I’d suggest using a better extension cord for your test. I don’t know the length, but it appears as though you may need a 12 gauge cord.
120v not 240v means it is single phase so you are only "powering" anything on that same panel busbar and off setting the usage on that single phase. So someone would in theory need to be able to identify which busbar is more heavily loaded and back feed a circuit on that phase.
If you were to be using a 240v appliance, Electric Stove/Dryer, I would be interested in "seeing" how the current would interact between the panels, grid, and the appliance as the solar panels with this inverter is only supplying current to 1/2 the circuit.
Generally speaking, plugging these into an outlet is not up to code because the breaker cannot protect the wires if there is a power source after the breaker. You could potentially overdraw on that circuit and melt the wires without tripping the breaker in your service panel. Drawing 15A from your service panel and 10A from your solar panels on the same circuit would overload your 20A circuit. The breaker only sees the 15A draw and will not trip. Just do your maths and if possible for safety, don't draw any power on a circuit that has one of these plugged in especially if you're producing over 1kw.
If the system is on a dedicated circuit Wouldn't the 15amp panel breaker protect the wire? Now I think a inline fuse/breaker at the inverter would also be a good idea at the inverter because it also supplies power.