43:15 Eye of the gods is in the command [2] subphase of the strategy phase, stupidity test is taken at the [1] start of turn subphase, in other words even if you roll one on the eyes of the gods table and become stupid you dont need to test for that until your next turn
Two things: one, when you fail eye if the Gods and become stupid, you don't have to test for stupidity until the following turn. It's actually broken how little of a downside eye of the Gods is. Two; unlike former editions, when you fail stupidity you can choose to stay still. You don't have to move up and still get to shoot and cast spells. It just doesn't let you do maneuvers and charge
Cheers right you are on eye of the gods. I'll let my opponent know for the future. With stupidity has that been FAQed? We read "Moves during the Compulsory Moves sub-phase. • Must move straight ahead, without performing any manoeuvres. • Cannot march or declare a charge." As saying it must move, but is it just being read as If you wish to move, then you must move straight ahead without any manoeuvres"?
@@TheDwellersBelow yes the faq clarified that with stupidity and random movement you move up to your max, you don't have to move at all. You can stay still
Well done guys! Great work there! Chris, charging past the banshee was a masterstroke! Dave, so good to see wood elves take gold! Piles on the pressure for my event now, Hope to be able to replicate some of your glory! I totally agree about ruby ring and an elementalism mage. I've not been encountering many magic heavy armies at this points level too, I think everyone wants the big nasty combat lord instead, which is ideal for a 24" fireball and a 21" plague of rust!
The magic missiles are just seriously impressive, especially if you can combo plague of rust. Keen to hear how you get on at the weekend and good luck with the woodies.
Small thing: Glade Lords don't have Elven Reflexes (ASF replaces it) so they have to rely on their Initiative 6 to strike first when using a Great Weapon.
@@TheDwellersBelow They work well in twos, the champion has BS 4. They are good, in adding that volume of shooting you need to deal with threats. They fit into the overall plan of taking out things, while scooting off when charged and not giving up points. As vets with a reroll to rally, they form up in march column then scoot 18" out of harms way. Much as a WE army does, while I have the Iron guts and Lord to deal with anything major. I've only had 5 games with the Ogres. Three with this set up at the one day tournament last week. Still in the learning stages. The trappers are hilarious, if you can get a unit of light cav attacking them while in range of the General Ld. They have to continuously take dangerous terrain tests as the little buggers FBIGO. The Sabre Tigers are unit strength 1 as war beasts and are great in pairs, to take out war machines. The hunters can march out of most charge arcs when threatened and throw a cheeky "Move & Shoot" spear they have. I rate this army Chris. Was lousy in 7 & 8th, but not in this edition.
Love to hear the wood elves getting big wins. I am surprised that Dave faced so little magical defenses though. I feel like a level 2 wizard is table stakes in anyrhihg under 1500 and a level 4 at 1500+.
Yeah I did dodge it a bit. The dwarves magical defence but no way to force me into 18" of them to dispell and then a dragon went and ate it. The warriors can't really get the mage and the dragon at those points due to character limit and I think Simon was hopeful his war alter would suffice to stop magic (which it kinda did shut down half my spells or so). But even then, the dragon is quite good and going and eating magic defence of the dwarves and others. More players did take lvl4s on other tables though, but it was a big choice to have a combat character or a lvl4.
I really love that type of video where you speak about competitive old world, I’m just curious, why people organize competitive event at 1250 points.i thought 2000 was the best way to play TOW , am I wrong?🤔
Yeah probably is the best way to play, at 2k. I think they are organising smaller for three reasons. 1) people don't have full armies built up yet, 2k is a lot to paint but 1250 with characters isn't that bad 2) it's a complex game and while newbies are learning this is a bit more manageable 3) smaller games are easier to run around stores as you can go slightly smaller tables so require less fantasy terrain. I think we will see bigger events more common soon though.
Question for Chris: how would you change your 1500 pt list if dragons were allowed and if you could take anything you wanted? I’m trying to build a list for a 1500pt tourney. Also guys this was an amazing episode. Please do more talk about lists, competition, and the meta in detail!
I *think* I would go something like Black Orc Wyvern, Night Goblin Lvl 4, Orc BSB, Big Boss on Squig, ~15 Black Orcs, 2 x 25 Night Goblins, 2 x 5 Orcs, 5 Squigs. I really value the second unit of fanatics to get one on each flank, and found the Boar Boys and Mangler OK but hard to get lots of value from. You are over-spending a *heap* on core, but that's where you get the battleline/mass of the army from, which I think is more important than getting extra glass cannons (which also bleed points). You could also drop the Big Boss and downgrade the Orc BSB to a Night Goblin one, freeing up enough points to squeeze in a couple of Bolt Throwers. But I'd worry that the BSB gets killed very easily at that point, and if I was playing *against* that version I'd be trying to line up an assassination run. That said, I'm not sure either of these is the best build - it's just the style that I'd be most comfortable playing though.
@@chriscousens111 thank you!!! Appreciate your insight. I was thinking about some range to complement that core, but was leaning towards doom divers. One other question if you don’t mind: how would you deal with high powered enemy dragons? They are very prevalent in my local meta. I was thinking of fighting with the tanky wyvern and trying to get a flank to break on static res
@@Khyriz.1 That's exactly my plan. If the dragon fights the wyvern plus some static CR, it's in trouble, and if it isn't fighting the Wyvern, you try to kill their army around it.
Nice content - thank you! How do you get 3 spells from elementalism + tree singing on your lvl 2 spellsinger? Am I missing something? I also tried elementalism in my last game and without lore familiar, there is a big chance to miss wind blast and rust, which you really want to have… Did you get wind blast and rust in every game?
Ok we need more of this content, more frequently, more often and in bigger quantities. Please? Maybe grab Dr Blaxill on board? Do more. Excellent angle
Cheers! Glad it was interesting. Dr Blaxill on the cast would be something, three PhDs on one ep might risk an extended chat about politics rather than Warhammer
@@TheDwellersBelow as long as political skew goes towards exploration of magical dimentions to monarchy of commonwealth i am all for it. Appreciate your work. Its fun for me and I can see its fun for you guys. Keep up the good work!
I guess we'll have to play more events then! As for that punk Blaxill... he'll have to join the line! (This is a linehammer joke, because of his excellent video on the subject).
Rules around Woods are really confusing to me. Dave mentions if his archers are in a woods and get targeted, they can flee 3" into the woods and be out of sight. Is that a rule in the book somewhere? The rules on woods on page 270 seem pretty incomplete and don't mention how to get more than partial cover while in them.
It's not fleeing into the woods, it's fleeing out of them so the woods are in-between me and the opponents. You place yourself on the back edge of the wood area terrain.
Love the content guys. Feels a bit gamey to play a wyvern when no dragons allowed. Do you think it was unexpected from your opponents perspective? Sounds fun anyway
Definitely a bit gamey, I think though if you impose hard caps the expectation is that some people will at least go up to the edge of them where as some uncapped things (say multiple goblin lvl4s and lots of fanatics, or the vamp scream list) are untouched and probably stronger. Will be interesting to see if the game goes down a more soft comp style like 8th was though.
With hindsight, I think I probably had the strongest list there and other people had toned things back more than I did. But it's hard to know in advance where the vibe for list strength will be - I could have gone even stronger with more fanatics. Because it was painted, I think I was always going to take the wyvern itself, but I think the solution was to have a less defensive loadout - lose the triple save, take the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! or something like that.
Yeah that would have been fun, do you think more minimum units of night gobbos work with more fanatics, or do we need bigger units so they will survive better with warband?
@@Willabrador I've tried small units, which are fine but much more vulnerable to panic / being killed before they can deliver the fanatics. I quite like 21 with Boss and Musician (harder to panic, can add some combat res, but doesn't give up too many points if killed), and want to try bigger blocks (30+ with standard) as extra line/tarpit units - but that requires painting a lot more night goblins! The key for all has been marching formation (ideally with Arcane Urgency) - gets them into annoying spots early and can deliver fanatics unreasonably early!
My hope is that we'll end up with a mix of scenarios and no-scenarios used at events (or TOs cook up their own). It's a matter of taste, but I find more feel-bads from the scenarios themselves than from the cooked lists that might get hurt a bit by some of the more skewed scenarios.
43:15 Eye of the gods is in the command [2] subphase of the strategy phase, stupidity test is taken at the [1] start of turn subphase, in other words even if you roll one on the eyes of the gods table and become stupid you dont need to test for that until your next turn
Two things: one, when you fail eye if the Gods and become stupid, you don't have to test for stupidity until the following turn. It's actually broken how little of a downside eye of the Gods is.
Two; unlike former editions, when you fail stupidity you can choose to stay still. You don't have to move up and still get to shoot and cast spells. It just doesn't let you do maneuvers and charge
Cheers right you are on eye of the gods. I'll let my opponent know for the future. With stupidity has that been FAQed? We read "Moves during the Compulsory Moves sub-phase. • Must move straight ahead, without performing
any manoeuvres. • Cannot march or declare a charge." As saying it must move, but is it just being read as If you wish to move, then you must move straight ahead without any manoeuvres"?
@@TheDwellersBelow yes the faq clarified that with stupidity and random movement you move up to your max, you don't have to move at all. You can stay still
@@emcdunna cheers good to know.
Well done guys! Great work there! Chris, charging past the banshee was a masterstroke! Dave, so good to see wood elves take gold! Piles on the pressure for my event now, Hope to be able to replicate some of your glory! I totally agree about ruby ring and an elementalism mage. I've not been encountering many magic heavy armies at this points level too, I think everyone wants the big nasty combat lord instead, which is ideal for a 24" fireball and a 21" plague of rust!
The magic missiles are just seriously impressive, especially if you can combo plague of rust. Keen to hear how you get on at the weekend and good luck with the woodies.
Small thing: Glade Lords don't have Elven Reflexes (ASF replaces it) so they have to rely on their Initiative 6 to strike first when using a Great Weapon.
Right you are! Don't think he needed it over the weekend (didn't get charged once) but good to know.
Yeah, outside of other Elf Lords and Chaos Lords of Slaanesh I think you're still fine.
Hey Egg and Dave, great podcast again. On counters for dragons I'm running a Big Game Ogre List with 3 hunters, harpoons and beast killer. It's doing rather well at countering large targets and plays a bit like Woodies in some respects. I think Dave would like it.
Big Game Hunters VII [1998 pts]
++ Characters [773 pts] ++
Tyrant "Captain" [298 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour
- General
- Armour of Destiny
- Fistful Of Laurels
- Charmed Shield
- Kineater
Hunter Mordrid [155 pts]
- Harpoon launcher
- Scouts
- Sword of Might
- Beastkiller
Hunter Larkin [155 pts]
- Harpoon launcher
- Scouts
- Sword of Might
- Beastkiller
Hunter Kurt [165 pts]
- Harpoon launcher
- Scouts
- Giant Blade
- Beastkiller
++ Core Units [796 pts] ++
6 Iron Guts [295 pts]
- Great Weapons
- Heavy Armour
- Look-out Gnoblar (Standard bearer)
- Veteran
- Gutlord
- Standard bearer [Cannibal Totem]
7 Ogre Bulls [287 pts]
- Ironfists
- Light armour
- Look-out Gnoblar (Standard bearer)
- Crusher (champion)
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
2 Sabretusk Pack [38 pts]
- Scouts
2 Sabretusk Pack [38 pts]
- Scouts
2 Sabretusk Pack [38 pts]
- Scouts
10 Gnoblar Trappers [50 pts]
- Throwing weapons (Sharp stuff)
10 Gnoblar Trappers [50 pts]
- Throwing weapons (Sharp stuff)
++ Special Units [429 pts] ++
2 Leadbelchers [94 pts]
- Light armour
- Veteran
- Thunderfist
2 Leadbelchers [94 pts]
- Light armour
- Veteran
- Thunderfist
3 Maneaters [241 pts]
- Poisoned Attacks
- Vanguard
- 3x Great weapons
- 2x Brace of Ogre pistols
- 2x Heavy armour
- Maneater Captain (champion) [Ruby Ring of Ruin]
Really interesting list Nasher, how are you finding the Leadbelchers? I think lachie has been trying to get them to work without much success. (Dave)
@@TheDwellersBelow They work well in twos, the champion has BS 4. They are good, in adding that volume of shooting you need to deal with threats. They fit into the overall plan of taking out things, while scooting off when charged and not giving up points. As vets with a reroll to rally, they form up in march column then scoot 18" out of harms way. Much as a WE army does, while I have the Iron guts and Lord to deal with anything major. I've only had 5 games with the Ogres. Three with this set up at the one day tournament last week. Still in the learning stages. The trappers are hilarious, if you can get a unit of light cav attacking them while in range of the General Ld. They have to continuously take dangerous terrain tests as the little buggers FBIGO. The Sabre Tigers are unit strength 1 as war beasts and are great in pairs, to take out war machines. The hunters can march out of most charge arcs when threatened and throw a cheeky "Move & Shoot" spear they have. I rate this army Chris. Was lousy in 7 & 8th, but not in this edition.
Love to hear the wood elves getting big wins. I am surprised that Dave faced so little magical defenses though. I feel like a level 2 wizard is table stakes in anyrhihg under 1500 and a level 4 at 1500+.
Yeah I did dodge it a bit. The dwarves magical defence but no way to force me into 18" of them to dispell and then a dragon went and ate it. The warriors can't really get the mage and the dragon at those points due to character limit and I think Simon was hopeful his war alter would suffice to stop magic (which it kinda did shut down half my spells or so). But even then, the dragon is quite good and going and eating magic defence of the dwarves and others. More players did take lvl4s on other tables though, but it was a big choice to have a combat character or a lvl4.
I really love that type of video where you speak about competitive old world, I’m just curious, why people organize competitive event at 1250 points.i thought 2000 was the best way to play TOW , am I wrong?🤔
Yeah probably is the best way to play, at 2k. I think they are organising smaller for three reasons. 1) people don't have full armies built up yet, 2k is a lot to paint but 1250 with characters isn't that bad 2) it's a complex game and while newbies are learning this is a bit more manageable 3) smaller games are easier to run around stores as you can go slightly smaller tables so require less fantasy terrain. I think we will see bigger events more common soon though.
Question for Chris: how would you change your 1500 pt list if dragons were allowed and if you could take anything you wanted? I’m trying to build a list for a 1500pt tourney. Also guys this was an amazing episode. Please do more talk about lists, competition, and the meta in detail!
I *think* I would go something like Black Orc Wyvern, Night Goblin Lvl 4, Orc BSB, Big Boss on Squig, ~15 Black Orcs, 2 x 25 Night Goblins, 2 x 5 Orcs, 5 Squigs. I really value the second unit of fanatics to get one on each flank, and found the Boar Boys and Mangler OK but hard to get lots of value from. You are over-spending a *heap* on core, but that's where you get the battleline/mass of the army from, which I think is more important than getting extra glass cannons (which also bleed points).
You could also drop the Big Boss and downgrade the Orc BSB to a Night Goblin one, freeing up enough points to squeeze in a couple of Bolt Throwers. But I'd worry that the BSB gets killed very easily at that point, and if I was playing *against* that version I'd be trying to line up an assassination run.
That said, I'm not sure either of these is the best build - it's just the style that I'd be most comfortable playing though.
@@chriscousens111 thank you!!! Appreciate your insight. I was thinking about some range to complement that core, but was leaning towards doom divers. One other question if you don’t mind: how would you deal with high powered enemy dragons? They are very prevalent in my local meta. I was thinking of fighting with the tanky wyvern and trying to get a flank to break on static res
@@Khyriz.1 That's exactly my plan. If the dragon fights the wyvern plus some static CR, it's in trouble, and if it isn't fighting the Wyvern, you try to kill their army around it.
Nice content - thank you!
How do you get 3 spells from elementalism + tree singing on your lvl 2 spellsinger? Am I missing something?
I also tried elementalism in my last game and without lore familiar, there is a big chance to miss wind blast and rust, which you really want to have…
Did you get wind blast and rust in every game?
He's got the ruby ring or ruin, didn't get plague once unuckily, but got wind blast every game (Dave)
Ok we need more of this content, more frequently, more often and in bigger quantities. Please? Maybe grab Dr Blaxill on board? Do more.
Excellent angle
Cheers! Glad it was interesting. Dr Blaxill on the cast would be something, three PhDs on one ep might risk an extended chat about politics rather than Warhammer
@@TheDwellersBelow as long as political skew goes towards exploration of magical dimentions to monarchy of commonwealth i am all for it. Appreciate your work. Its fun for me and I can see its fun for you guys. Keep up the good work!
I guess we'll have to play more events then! As for that punk Blaxill... he'll have to join the line! (This is a linehammer joke, because of his excellent video on the subject).
Rules around Woods are really confusing to me. Dave mentions if his archers are in a woods and get targeted, they can flee 3" into the woods and be out of sight.
Is that a rule in the book somewhere? The rules on woods on page 270 seem pretty incomplete and don't mention how to get more than partial cover while in them.
It's not fleeing into the woods, it's fleeing out of them so the woods are in-between me and the opponents. You place yourself on the back edge of the wood area terrain.
Oooo sneaky move@@TheDwellersBelow
Love the content guys. Feels a bit gamey to play a wyvern when no dragons allowed. Do you think it was unexpected from your opponents perspective? Sounds fun anyway
Definitely a bit gamey, I think though if you impose hard caps the expectation is that some people will at least go up to the edge of them where as some uncapped things (say multiple goblin lvl4s and lots of fanatics, or the vamp scream list) are untouched and probably stronger. Will be interesting to see if the game goes down a more soft comp style like 8th was though.
For sure @@TheDwellersBelow, and totally it's a tournament so everyone is within their rights to do their best to win and pick the best stuff too
With hindsight, I think I probably had the strongest list there and other people had toned things back more than I did. But it's hard to know in advance where the vibe for list strength will be - I could have gone even stronger with more fanatics. Because it was painted, I think I was always going to take the wyvern itself, but I think the solution was to have a less defensive loadout - lose the triple save, take the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh! or something like that.
Yeah that would have been fun, do you think more minimum units of night gobbos work with more fanatics, or do we need bigger units so they will survive better with warband?
@@Willabrador I've tried small units, which are fine but much more vulnerable to panic / being killed before they can deliver the fanatics. I quite like 21 with Boss and Musician (harder to panic, can add some combat res, but doesn't give up too many points if killed), and want to try bigger blocks (30+ with standard) as extra line/tarpit units - but that requires painting a lot more night goblins!
The key for all has been marching formation (ideally with Arcane Urgency) - gets them into annoying spots early and can deliver fanatics unreasonably early!
Does the war alter not give -3 to casting instead of -2?
Playing against Wood Elves has been absolutely miserable in every edition, this one is no different.
Nah its "All Wizards within this model’s Command range (friend or foe) suffer a -2 modifier to
their Casting rolls."
@@michaelfechir5581 They remain thematic and consistent in their awful annoying playstyle. The best.
Yeah I think the scenarios are all pretty terrible except for open battle, especially for tournament play.
My hope is that we'll end up with a mix of scenarios and no-scenarios used at events (or TOs cook up their own). It's a matter of taste, but I find more feel-bads from the scenarios themselves than from the cooked lists that might get hurt a bit by some of the more skewed scenarios.