Serral? Maru? Who is the actual "Greatest Of All Time"? w/ Artosis
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- Опубліковано 17 бер 2024
- Big arguments in the StarCraft 2 scene as to who is the GOAT. I weigh in.
Do you AGREE or DISAGREE?
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Serral also won Rank Roulette S4. Has Maru won a rank roulette? Clearly, Serral is the goat.
Finally some reason around here
😂 best comment ever
TRUE
Disputed goat.
I mean you could say same thing for both iem and blizzcon aswell lmao.
They are all skilled and impressive but how they perform when spammed with Mario erotica and chat asking them dumb questions? That is how you truly measure one's skill!
Yeah lets see em win a tournament having to silence TTS every 10 seconds.
Rogue has always been a valid candidate for goat, just as Arty said, it's not uncontested. That said, it's hard to not mention that Rogue gets slapped by Serral in offline matches.
IEM Katowice 2022 Ro4 : 3-0 Serral
IEM Season XIII World Championship Group C: 2-0 Serral
WCS 2018 Blizzcon Ro4 : 3-1 Serral
IEM Season XII World Championship Group C: 2-1 Serral
Overall: Serral is 10-2 in maps and 4-0 in matches vs Rogue
And the nature of the weekend vs planned tournament performance variance by terran/zerg isn't relevant in this comparison as it's a mirror
Literally the only other top 10 player Serral has a loss record in offline events is literally just Solar, I mean I just watched Pig's video on it.
Doubters in shambles
wait what. hi kyle lol
I didnt know you liked starcraft, thats awesome. Please make a documentary
Damm whutttt you're here? Maybe you'd do sc2 on the gaming channel man.
Bro, I didn't know you played SC!?!?!
Yoo
Hey RT. This is Steve from the local video store. We’ve been trying to contact you to return a movie you’ve had checked out for a while called Geraman Jugs Bangaroo 23.
Please return it when you get the chance.
i think you have to look at the actual play as well and not just who won. need to look at HOW did they win. serral is the closest thing to perfect we have seen in my opinion and has stayed at that level for years.
TLDR: Its flash
Tldw***
Goated comment
everyone who doesent think its big gabe just doesent know his true size
MVP was so good, wish he didn't get hurt. Would be nice to see what he could have accomplished.
At first I scoffed, but after looking over their Liquipedia pages, I see Artosis' point.
Maru literally only has one major premier tournament win which was WESG 2017, outside of that, all he really does is come in second place in global tournaments, and farmed 7 GSLs.
Serral has 3 Major Premier tournaments wins in IEM Katowice 2022, IEM Katowice 2024, and 2018 WCS Global Finals, outside of that his other big wins are just region locked European tournaments and 2 GSL vs the worlds.
Rogue has been in military service since 2022, hence why his tournament winnings have been overtaken by Maru and Dark. But he also has 3 Major Premier Tournament wins like Serral in 2017 WCS Global Finals, IEM Katowice 2020, and IEM Season XII - World Championship, he also has 2 Super Tournaments and 4 GSLs.
His head to head vs Serral is 47-53 in favour of Serral, and his head-to-head vs Maru is also 47-53 in favour of Maru, so very close to both. Meanwhile Serral absolutely dominates Maru in the head-to-head 67-33. Him being equal in 3 major 100k+ tournament wins with Serral is even more impressive because Serral got one of them while Rogue was in the military.
I have no doubt in my mind that if Rogue didn't go to the military in 2022, he would be near equal with Serral in Tournament winnings still and would be well above Maru. And if you value having dominant performances in both global, and Korean tournaments, as well as being almost unbeatable in bo7s, I think calling Rogue the GOAT is honestly really fair.
I genuinely think Rogue has a better claim for GOAT status than Maru does, he's been playing at the top for just as long as Maru, has 2 more 100k Premier Tournament wins than Maru, and has 4 GSLs compared to Maru's 7(having gotten 2 of them while Rogue was in the military). I could totally see Rogue having taken 1 or 2 of those GSLs from Maru hadn't he gone to his military service. He is almost as good as Maru at his strong points, and blows Maru out of the water in terms of global tournaments. Meanwhile Serral is the undisputed goat in terms of head-to-head, and prize winnings, but not having any GSLs and having a huge bulk of his tournament winnings being from European region locked tournaments could knock him down for some.
IMO If we go back to 2022, Rogue is the GOAT for sure, and now that he's been in military for 2 years, Serral is probably the GOAT now.
Good video Arty.
There was a time (I think the IEM where Oliviera won) when Serral's ZvZ really sucked and he got tossed around by Ragnarok and Solar. Those two guys are very very good ZvZ players but Rogue always had the best ZvZ, so even with his vastly improved ZvZ Serral may not have been able to beat Rogue. Good point.
Great breakdown!
"Serral has 3 Major Premier tournaments wins in IEM Katowice 2022, IEM Katowice 2024, and 2018 WCS Global Finals, outside of that his other big wins are just region locked European tournaments and 2 GSL vs the worlds."
uhmm... I think you should check serral's resume a bit more closely
Here are a few premier tournaments that serral won that weren't reagion locked:
ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Summer
TSL 9
NeXT 2021 S2
DH SC2 Masters 2021 Fall
DH SC2 Masters 2020 Summer
and many more
@@norberthiz9318 I was specifically talking about the ones that are 100k+ prize pools. Of course all of them have won a bunch of small ones with like 10k prize pools
@@Eldinarcusthen you shouldn't include gsl's either, gsl has like double or little more prize pool then these "smaller" tournaments(depending on which years gsl we talk about). Maru aslo has a very few of these as well.
And again Maru has won 2 gsl's last year and both had like 50k prize pool, so why are we pretending gsl worths the same as a kato or blizzcon. Thats what gets me, people pretend you can compare 7 gsls to 2 katowices and a blizzcon, no you can't. If you do, you have to include the smaller premier tournaments as well. And with those Serral is absolutely clearly ahead of both rogue and maru
Clearly the only way to settle this is to make a big preparation tournament in Finland. Koreans could fly there and live in Finland for a month, it would be fair, right?
I do like Rogue. But Serral is the goat for me.
Understand the point being made but here's another factor. When they asked the last Ro16 i think it was, of who was the strongest player among them, 15/16 of them said Serral.
The reason why "prep tournaments" are so hard is because the player adapts their strategy to you. Fair enough and that's why prep tournaments should, in theory, be a greater source of prestige. The problem here is that _everybody preps for Serral_ based on their own personal opinion that Serral is the strongest. Most players will play their version of standard or their specific style against most other players, but when they play Serral, then the weird builds come out, then the hidden drones, then the unusual proxies or fake proxies, the tech switches, etc. Serral is playing as a weekend player against people who, for years, have been playing him like GSL, including every other contender for GOAT. Which is what makes his achievements hit all the more harder.
When Serral actually played prepared builds against other players who were doing prepared builds on him he won Katowice 20-1 without dodging the other active contenders for GOAT. So yeah.
If its so easy for him to win preptourneys why doesnt he just go win a GSL then? As Artosis said its open for him to go and join but he doesnt.
Its like some1 having the chance to go to Liverpool and play in the best league and they decide to stay in the finnish football league and still try to argue that their the goat as they score on their finnish buddies.
@@SsSHardtyou probably ment to say score in the world cup but w/e.
@@SsSHardt what do you think the ask is here. so for example, if serral participates in gsl, it would conflict with dreamhack masters europe and also a win in GSL doesnt send him to atlanta either because he's non korean and regional qualifiers come from citizenship, not residence. And there's a gigantic difference between months of residence in Korea to participate throughout the entirety of a GSL season vs a weekend for a premier event. So like "why doesnt he just do X" is beyond disingenuous. smh
@@madumlao Well that argument could be made for Alot of players then. Why would Maru go to Europe to play vs Serral when he would miss gsl on his home turf?
Why would a finish football player move to England and play for Liverpool when he could stay at home and play for his home crowd?
@@SsSHardt nobody is arguing that Maru isnt great because he doesnt play in Europe. nobody is arguing that (insert player) isnt great because he plays on his home turf. Literally only Serral deniers have ever been heard making that argument.
MVP also dominated when the game was at peak global popularity and achieved a higher level of dominance than anyone else over his 2-3 year run. He will always be my goat.
Losing 1 map in the major tournament is an ackomplishment as wll as and 4-0 Maru.
It doesn't matter if it happened recently. it's still one of the best tournament performances ever
And again!
Rogue over Serral? Hell nah
Nestea is the goat. GSLs and dreamhacks are nothing compared to stealing another nerds face.
nestea punched a man and turned him into dust. He is the GOAT
the Snow laughter editing in was ... surprising.
I find it amusing that Maru getting back to back runner up at worlds is him slumping but to be honest I agree.
Well we just need Serral in a GSL and then we can see if he truly is.
But he won GSL vs the World 2 times in a row xd
The reason why Serral doesn't participate is GSL is because he is a chill guy and cannot be bothered by proving to people in the internet that He iS tHe UlTiMaTe BeSt. He is a simple man: he comes to the offline tournament, steamrolls everyone 20-1(map score) and says "alright, that's good enough"
Speaking of the preparation tournaments: Serral saw that he could participate in the Rank Roulette season 4, so when the playoffs bracket was settled he took his time, did the preparations and blew everyone's minds with his performance, especially in the semifinals and finals, and this is in the game which is volatile as heck
If anything, koreans must be thanking god that GSL is de-facto region-locked and on the opposite side of the world bc serral would farm them dry
I agree about serral but jeez im cringing that you just brought up ranked roullette as some sort of grand feat
@@momoaa Ranked Roulette is the Jeopardy of the Esports industry, watch your mouth
@@momoaa dude he was being sarcastic with the roulette thing.
If gsl is now worthless then even if he did win it, it would just be dismissed, which means what? He can never be goat because real gsl doesn't exist any more?
@@georgehelyar ye exacly cant win to thoose ppl. Times where always better before....
if you're saying winning all the titles, SOS probably is the answer, world champion twice and GSL champion and other tournament
It's so hard as well, because do we also include eras of starcraft like Heart of The Swarm, where the game was kind broken balance wise? Those hour + long swarm host games were brutal 😬
It's not like the broken patch players played opponents who had to play on a different patch, so that's kind of irrevelant
@@Sapreme During the broken patch(es) the zerg race was super dominant for a reason - the game was broken for a bit. So zvz and tvp weren't really affected but zvt and zvp were messed up.
When you were saying which player has won both I thought of rogue straight away, then you said it. 100% agree on this take
The thing to do is get a list of the 5 to 10 guys who might be the guy, then evaluate who won and how they looked when they played each other.
how come a lot of SC2 community isn't really taking BW-approach on these rankings where they discount results post-teamhouse era?
The same thing applies in BW; the general knowledge, meta and skill level rose a lot compared to Proleague era where game is nearly incomparable and everything is measured down to seconds nowadays, with meta evolving to counter the meta constantly every few weeks due to condensed progamer circle and sharing of knowledge
However, everyone recognizes that the amount of competition/cycle/dedicated coaching or sniping builds are incomparable compared to proleague era as of now, as amount of resources dedicated to each player and level of competition is just way less now, so results post-teamhouse era are counted with grain of salt even if the "now" player would wipe floor with "past" player; after all, the peak competition and mechanical skill was back in proleague era.
Flash mentioned that if "modern" player were timetravelled back into past, they would win most of the game vs past player due to just difference in knowledge/skill. But the past player would just adapt due to being used to the amount of competition and sheer mechanical skill during that era, so you cannot compare past achievements with current.
after proleague went down, a lot of SC2 Korean pro players are not under same amount of pressure/passion for game after and are really in no way in their peak. The amount of progamers lessened a lot, and there are a whole lot less expectations placed on them. It's not really fair to compare peak competition era to post 2017 era really just due to sheer difference in environment where SC2 doesn't really offer an attractive environment for Korean progamers to keep going.
Here's another point. Arguably Serral's biggest win was Blizzcon. Who was he facing? Rogue. Rogue was 2nd in that tournament only to him, and his play was also phenomenal. So even in Serrals biggest accomplishment, he only slightly edged out Rogue. No hate though. Love Serral, and in that tourney he played like a God and accomplished something no other foreigner has.
Well the other side of the coin is Rogue could never beat serral at lan. He's 0-4 against serral on lan and most of them were big matches.
I think this is fair. I also think impact on the game is a big factor. People rarely talk about how much Maru changed how Terran is played forever. I think Serral is clearly the better player, but Serral hasn't really changed how we think about Zerg.
I agree with your assessment about different tournament types and that online counts less etc.
I don't know who the goat is, I think Rogue is a solid contender, people will dismiss it because he hasn't been playing lately.
I'd like us all to wait for the world championship this year with this conversation - whether Serral wins with an unbeatable performance, Maru takes revenge, or some upset happens, could influence the standing.
It just saddens me to think that, while Koreans are still great players, there may not be as much of an incentive for them to excel as in the past. Maybe I'm wrong - and I don't want to take away from Serral's skill, he seemed impeccable at Katowice - but it just seems like Koreans nowadays are not as motivated as in the past. I remember that during some tournament they asked who'll win and everyone said "Serral", other than Dark, who said he'll win it himself. I think that's the spirit they need.
just sounds to me like koreans lost their superiority complex, which i personally felt they had, after so many years of dominance. if a korean says serral it doesnt reek of a lack of nationalism, or pride, its just rational.
its not a motivation thing for koreans, they just can't compete with serral and they acknowledge it. Dark does say he is the best, but he still gets stomped by serral and clem. Serral has been dominating since 2018 and since then has been conistantly beating every single one of them. You think that maru, rogue, dark, zest, trap, inno, ty, stats have been unmotivated for the last 6 years? I think thats a bit extreme
You could say that serral has demotivated them by just continously beating them for years, but that just makes him the goat even more imo
Saying they are demotivated when they AKNOWLEDGE serral will beat them, is just very hars copeium.
I followed SC2 2011-2015 (or 16, can't rememb) and reading some comments here it's really weird to see GSL not being THE championship
Thinking more about your Pylon show which gave some good insight... it has been quite some time since you made those. How about you get some thoughts from actual pro players as of today? I think ultimately their thought's on it should be the deciding factor. Even you as a long-time commentator are looking at it only from the sidelines.
I think the points are fair, and looking at accomplishments and their value is definitely a big part of it. But I believe one big part is also how other pro gamers feel about them, since they are the ones who actually play against the goat candidates and should be able to judge best who is actually the best player.
With FlaSh it‘s clear. He has won the most by far AND every pro is in agreement that he‘s leagues above.
We should listen more to who the pros think the SC2 goat is instead of arguing on TL and reddit about it.
Every single sc2 pro even the koreans agree that Serral is the goat. He is the only player eveyone always fears. I think in atlanta esl asked the players who the favorite for the tournament was, everyone said Serral apart from dark... who said dark xd
Lie. They agreed that Serral was the best player right now. As art clearly stated thats NOT = to GOAT.
I'm very happy to hear the name of our sexy boy! He's the GOAT to me too, because he found so many creative strategies that hardly anybody used before him, and he made them work. That's what I value the most. Can't wait for the next surprise from him!
Even though it's a competitive game, I think you can give some credit too for players who have pushed the game forward, pioneered new styles, play with a style seemingly nobody else is able to wield, etc. This is how Hendrix ends up at the top of Greatest Guitarist lists above the dude from Polyphilia or Yngwie or whoever. A lot of people disagree with this way of thinking, and that's fine. Agree that there is no undisputed SC2 GOAT. All you can do is discuss the merits of the criteria a given commentator is using and how accurately they're applying them, and I think RT's argument here is totally sensible.
im pretty sure Serral himself said that ROGUE would be his #1 candidate for the GOAT
Yep, but Serral has still never lost to Rogue on lan lmao (4-0 in series). Serral is just that guy to be humble, within reason.
In Head to Head Serral crushes them both. Maru beats Rogue and Either v Serral it’s not close.
Match History from Aligulac: Rogue V Serral 7/15 no “in person” wins.
Rogue V Maru 12/27 7/10 in person.
Serral v Maru 16/20 4/5 in person.
This match history goes back to 2017. Serral’s wins is pretty even across time. He is not just the best player now, he has consistently been better than both head to head. I would assume when they face off it is in late stage tournaments. So they have beaten many other good players to that point.
They never play in prep tournaments so Zerg had an innate advantage. I think the goat argument is too close to call and I just wish there was a more prestigious prep tournament where Maru and Serral could face off when they both have 3-4 weeks to prepare against each other.
You can say that Maru is the goat in prep tournament format with 8 GSL wins and I think for anyone to be an undisputed goat you need to beat him in a prep tournament. Serral needs to do GSL, and that would settle the argument
@@zacharyknox1730 Zerg has no particular advantage in “prep” or no prep tournaments.
More importantly this argument has no weight because no matter what, if you are Maru, or any top player in a tournament, you are 100% preparing to play against Serral. Who else you practicing for? GuMiHo(the real GOAT)?? You know in advance at any tournament it is most likely you are going to have to beat Serral more than any other player to take the win.
@@miza6 Most pros disagree with your sentiment about the performance of Zerg in weekend tourney. It’s general consensus amongst the best in the world that Zerg has an advantage in weekend tournaments due to the reactive nature of their play style against the other 2 races. The stats also bear this out as well.
If you play a weekend tournament you certainly try to prepare for specific opponents; but it’s different when you play a field of 10+ opponents in a weekend. In GSL you only have to prepare for 3 (in group stage) and 1 in quarterfinals onward. This makes a MASSIVE difference in the builds you can go for and unique strategies you can pursue.
Just go look at Maru’s career of pulling out unique builds and innovating in GSL when no one else thought his race could or should be able to play that way. We have yet to see if Serral’s impressive win rate would hold up against this rigorous format.
I can understand why the community disagrees who the GOAT is. I can’t understand why the community does not all agree that we want to see Serral in prep tournaments to settle the argument and close the last hole in his case as the GOAT.
He just needs 1 GSL and it’s never been easier. The tournament is quicker and has less competition. Reynor is coming to compete in GSL, why can’t Serral? There is no excuse for him at this point other than strictly money, which is understandable as a professional.
But come on Serral. You have made millions already, sacrifice for a season or two and go over to GSL and win. Prove the doubters wrong. It would be a legendary feat, which is worthy of GOAT status.
Would it be fair to say that MVP is the Wings of Liberty undisputed GOAT, or is there someone else that is actually in the running? Nestea maybe?
Mvp definitely. Even I, a huge NesTea fan, can see that clearly.
I appreciate the ideological consistency you've presented the Rogue argument with over the years. I'm not sure that Rogue has maintained the peak that Serral has maintained for as long as Serral maintained it, but at the same time we can argue (correctly or incorrectly) that Rogue achieved success within a larger player pool. Similarly, Several achieved success while the level of play in SC2 was the highest.
The greatest SC2 player surely is one of the two of them. Maru has lacked that level of success on the global stage to really qualify him. Winning 7 GSLs, three of which came after it had sadly lost some luster, is a wonderful achievement but being unable to replicate that achievement under other circumstances is a lot like sOs not being able to win when less than $100,000 was on the line.
It must be serral.
How about Life? Of course, doesn't have the longevity, but for reasons that have nothing to do with the game.
That being said, I totally can get behind your argumentation RT. Very good analysis.
Ok RT you want a mixture of achievements?
Serral was the first SC2 pro player to make 1 million dollars in tournament winnings, maru is just behind him coming in 2nd place.
Serral is pretty much always at the top of the Aligulac rating
2 time Katowice champion
Won every single non korean major tournament in 2018 where many koreans also participated
In the recent tournament 4-0'd Maru
Since his earliest TL major tournament of FEST Lyon 2015 he has won 40+ tournaments. The tournaments he had not won he came in 2nd place or 3rd. His only tragic score was gsl vs the world where his team went 1-7.
Maru
5 time GSL winner
Since his first major tournament win recorded by TL in 2015 the IPL team arena challenge 2, he has won 25-27 tournaments leading up to the last IEM katowice. These are all major and premier tournaments.
If we want to talk recent modern times Serral has been dominant compared to maru.
If we want to talk all time, Serral has achieved more money, far more tournament wins and the only reason serral has yet to try a GSL which he is asked about often, is because he doesnt feel the need to prove anything by going to do GSL. GSL doesnt even have the same prestige as it once did, the only difference between the normal tournaments and gsl is prep tournament style.
Isn’t it more fair to say that region locked and online count less rather than not at all? I feel like it should count for something.
Artosis constantly referring to GSL as the "most prestigious" tournament in SC2 like it's the Heavyweight Boxing World Championship or something when the reality is players compete in GSL in order to qualify for a spot in the Global Finals (now at IEM Katowice, previously Blizzcon), which features massively higher prize pools and a shot at the title of "world champion", something GSL has never offered.
Thank you. His glorifying of the GSL is only emotional based. The top tier players meet an the international stage, not GSL.
@@BestPrezzi mean, pretty much every single non korean playing the gsl got destroyed, the most recent example is reynor when he got smashed in the first group stage.
@@msi112yeah cause maru and rogue have NEVER been knocked out early in a tournament in their lives. Basing your entire argument on a single torunament run from reynor is just laughable.
And just to be clear, literally every single korean pro got smashed by Serral( and reynor too) in big international tournaments in the last 6 years
@@msi112 you mean scarlett and special and one time reynor? if you think that says it all, ok bro, but if you wanna see how gsl champs do on the world stage, just watch IEM and dreamhack masters.
@BestPrezz which are not planned tournaments.
Im a casual follower for sure, but... as far as i can remember Serral more often then not beats out ex-GSL champions. No one disputes that Reynor or Time cant take down a high tier korean without it being an upset, but when it comes to Serral losing to a high teir korean, that is boarderline an upset. Even koreans expect Serral to win.
issue with that is that... Korean scene is kinda shadow of its former self and doesn't really support full time gamers much nowadays.
fair amount of SC2 pros have second jobs according to Crank now and don't really dedicate all their time to progaming.
Artosis makes entire video explaining GOAT doesn't just mean best right now.
Guy in comments: Serral is GOAT because he's best right now.
Its hard to argue against Serral since he has been so strong for years but I think we need some sort of break down between just all the top players vs eachother in LANS to find out who is the best. GOAT would be who ever is at the top of that list and has the most money won I guess.
Parting is the goat of my heart ❤️
The tough part of picking the best of SC2 for me is mandatory military service in S Korea
Finally someone said it and gave Rogue credit. Glad Artosis didn't fall for the reddit opinion on this one
Wax has been saying this for awhile
Artosis has been saying this for years.
We can't make a holistic comparison because the foreign scene never placed the same emphasis on prep tournaments. Rogue is a fair answer though. When you placed emphasis on performance in both prep and weekend tournaments, I guessed you were gonna make an argument for Rogue lol.
Rogue is like the Michael Jordan of SC2, once he gets to the finals he dominates.
It's either rogue Maru or several then
Rogue is actually a good choice. I'm not sure I would put him as Goat, but that got me thinking outside the box. I think you have to add to the Goat convo, like a certain sense of making people inspired to play. And I do believe Serral has inspired more new players than Rogue per say. But this again would be a hard metric to account for.
Which one is more zen?🤔
I have been waiting for this day! I knew Arty would bring up Rogue and honestly I agree
Serral smacks rougue around when they play. Gtfo
@@tipsynfl4516True, Serral has never lost a lan series to rogue.
I thought about this and feel like I'm prob that goat
I think serral with his performance right now are goat, with his skill and his decision in battle are better, i would say goat of sc2
THe goat WAS IS and FOREVER WILL BE HAS.
MVP is the goat.
I 200% agree with Artosis with this.
still stands. Serral is bad for SC2
1. Artosis accepted GSL also has declined. since Kespa, gone is the Korean Foreigner Pilgrimage.
2. Yes, Katowice could be the only premier tournament. but the Volume and Quality of games Serral plays doesn't speak for itself.
3. If there is a Goat. SC2 would have had many endorsements like Faker.
I respect Special more than Reynor. because he played in GSL but didn't rant when he didn't win any games.
Specifically the Racepicking. it has been there since SC1.
Special got out of his comfort zone. Fought for his dreams even got skinny for it.
MVP goat ez, life could have been if he kept going
nobody from today can really compare to the 2011-15 ish era top players, because back then competition and number of tournaments was x10 higher
Any pro from today would absolutely roflstomp anyone (yes, including themselves) from 2011-15. I hope RT sees your comment and laughs at you.
Mate... Modern players would just slaughter those old players 😂😂😂
Even now older players like Dark complain about new players like Clem being too fast.
@@invader_jim2837 its not about who is stronger its about being stronger vs competition of their time and how much competition there is at their time. And to be fair sc2 back then was basically the same 0 mistakes play as today.
@@maxrs07 There isn't zero mistakes play in SC. Everyone makes mistakes. And players back in the day made way more mistakes and overall were just worse.
Artosis being korean player fan
Greatest of all time. Rouge and Seral may be the most dominant players we have ever seen at one point. But Maru has been in SC2 since the beggining and has played at the highest level since then. All th expansions, all the patches and the guy still finds a way to stay revalant and not only relavant but dominant. Some of his GSL wins may not be at the peek of compeition but there no denying that none of them weren an easy feat that should be overlooked.
This is a bad take but good engagement bait
I think Life was the GOAT we never got. That guy was so innovative and incredible for being so young. Losing him was one of the biggest blows to the scene.
Life was my favorite
Too true. 😢
I agree, Life went everywhere and won.
Unfortunately he was not a person of good intentions...
@@displacedicon7643 he was a young guy. He should have been surrounded by better people. I think it has been a wake up call for a lot of players, so not all bad.
For around 2020 and 2022, Rogue, Maru, Serral and Reynor were my top four greatest players. Unfortunately, Rogue had some dissapointing results before having to go to military which returning, he will probably just no longer be very good anymore due to being away for so long which is really sad because he was very, very close up there with Serral and Maru. Not only did he win GSL's but he also won a couple IEMS as well. Reynor has had amazing results but has fallen off quite hard since like last year or so. He did poorly in IEM this year and he got absolutely smacked in that GSL he went into to. Maru has won lots of GSL and can usually make it into the finals of tornaments like IEM so putting him as the best player is completely understandable. However, his last couple GSL wins aren't as impressive as they used to be due to GSL cutting down more and more over the years. At least for Rogue, his GSL wins were when GSL was still pretty big, but for Maru's last couple wins of the GSL, it felt like it was because many of the big players were gone so the only people that could contest him is Dark and sometimes Hero. That's about it currently in GSL. As of now, I would say Serral is the best player in the world, due to just how well he has been playing recently. it really feels he has been improving a lot since mid 2023 to now. But he is not undisputed.
Dude Serral smacks the shit out of the rougue every time they play. Come on
Maru did always say Rogue was the best Zerg when asked about Serral back when everyone wanted to see a Maru vs Serral match :P
As a casual spectator, my uninformed opinion was that Serral was better than Rogue and Maru for the large majority of time after he rose to fame in Europe. I root for Maru cause I play Terran but Maru's win rate vs Serral is pretty abysmal and he's susceptible to losing in TvT and TvP while Serral seemingly dominates all matchups, with the occasional hiccup in ZvZ. Looking at their accomplishments, Rogue is definitely a good candidate for GOAT. It's just that the world's attention gravitated towards Serral because of his seemingly greater skill, his ridiculous win rate in EU tournaments even if they were region locked, the fact that he was the first foreigner to beat Koreans consistently and eventually win Blizzcon.
While the technical skill of players like Serral, Reynor and Clem are probably still setting new highs today, it's difficult to regard recent winnings in SC2 with the same esteem as the tournaments of the past because the audience has dwindled and new lifeblood entering the competitive scene is essentially non-existant.
Just remember that Neeb owns Rogue. By the transitive property, Neeb = GOAT
What about MVP or MC?
MVP is the goat! Idk how he beat Squirtle with his broken ass wrist. What a match!
Neither of them played quite long enough to be in the conversation I think. Incredible peaks but the longevity beyond 3 or 4 great years just isn't there unfortunately
The GOAT cant be a guy that has never won the World championship.
The fact is both maru and rogue(especially maru) won gsl's when it was no longer that prestigous. Saying that "gsl is the most prestigous tournament" is so ridicoulos., maybe in 2015 or something, but gsl has been rapidly losing its prestige since 2018, to the point that its difficult to call it a premier tournament, and it just happens to be that all of maru's gsl comes from an era where the gsl was just a normal tournamet. Comparing a 2018+ gsl to a katowice, blizzcon or gamers8 is incredible ridicoulos.
So putting maru ahead of serral is just a bad joke, I agree with you that rogue is the one we should talk about. But he is also not on the same level in tterms of achievments, but he is defenietly close.
and lets not forget that literally ALL of the players think serral is the goat, arty is being very disingenous when he says "people" are disputing serrals goat status, yeah random idiots on the internet who can't accpet that sc2 is no longer only about the koreans. Literally ALL of the pros(apart from dark lmao) think serral is the goat, serral is the player every single one of them fears. Players might fear rogue a lot in a bo7, but overall noone has that presence serral has, and that just proves he IS the goat, even if some random korea fanboys don't accept it.
Your point about maru's lack of early gsls is a matter of semantics. Maru won an osl in 2013, which was the replacement for that season's gsl
@@sage4670how is that a matter of semantics? people always claim that maru is the goat because he is a 7 times gsl champ, while all of those were from an era where gsl was no longer very prestigous. Just becasue he won an osl in 2013 that deosn't make the 7 gsls he won any more impressive.
And if you claim he was already a top player in 2013 then thats just ridicolous, he won like 3 tournaments between 2010 and 2018, yeah some of that was quite impressive, but he was just another terran player who very occasinally won something until 2018, and ever since then serral outshined him in every way
Rogue is the GOAT. Serral is a better player but when rogue shows up he is absolutely terrifying. Nobody eviscerates players the way he does. GSL FInals? 4-1 absolutely thrashes Maru in his own throne room, the GSL. IEM Katowice? How about 2. Blizzcon? Done that. Rogue won 3 world championships and 4 GSL before Serral got his second title. Rogue's biggest weakness is that he literally tries to clown on people sometimes (broodlords vs Dark? Hello? after winning katowice?)
Dont know why, and even if I like more of MC and Nestea back then, there was always something about MVP that I look as the most complete player that SC2 ever had. Strategy, timings, macro, he was the best I've seen. Other than him, only Serral, as much as I love Rogue and Maru they used a lot of zerg and terran strategies like roach 1-1 timings, nydus, mmm timings that were broken for a long time. I loved your reasoning Artosis, great points and I sensed you tried to be the more unbiased possible, even if you always loved Rogue.
Mvp likely could've been the GOAT if not for his wrist and neck injuries derailing his career too soon. The longevity just wasn't there unfortunately but a strong case could definitely be made for him having the greatest peak of any player ever
@@thesoundofsilence77 he's like Ronaldo the phenom of SC2 🙂
*We have huffed enough vespene gas.*
Serral is is pwn
I know Maru got decked in IEM this year but let’s remember he made the finals two years in a row, whereas Serral did not. That is barely an edge in Serrals side, if at all.
How will this impact lebrons legacy
The goat is obviously Artosis.
He is the greatest gamer
The weirdest part of this argument is disqualifing online tournaments, which gives a big disadvantage to players like Serral who played and did well during the 2.5 years of COVID. Maybe in the past online tournaments were small and irrelevant, but I don't agree with it now
Everytime this gets discussed I get a little bummed that Life is banished. Rouge is a good shout. Also Artosis is a smoke show.
Who is Serral?
Arotsis thinks getting a visa for an extended stay in Korea is easy. “No GSL region lock” - other than the laws of the country and thousands in investment if you want to live there for a full season.
Saying GSL is not region lock is the most disingenious thing I heard in a long time
@@alcimir5 "People can just come over to Korea for a month easy!" like is he serious?
yeah inclining that competing in gsl takes the same as competing in a kato is just ridicolous
Well yeah but it's not literally impossible like actual region-locked tournaments. Plenty of foreigners have competed in GSL
LMAO, and getting visas to go to Poland is any harder? Butt hurt europeans.
Greatest of all time is the person who at their best beats everyone else at their best more often than not. Literally the greatest player of all time. Which I think goes to serral, Clem can compete with serral but I don't think he is well rounded enough to beat people like maru consistently. I think serral does the best against every other great player
Hard agree its hard to see the person who has a winning lan record vs Rogue (4-0) hasn't lost a lan series to Maru since 2017 aswell and since Clem is still to new to have his stake it shouldn't be a valid argument.
Yes
Love how people are pretending SC2 is still a real competitive game when every patch past WoL creates a new "patch zerg," "patch player," etc. The game doesn't have the same pool of talent it did during it's prime and it's not even close. There are a few top players now who would do well during SC2's prime, but the rest of the players are garbage and are only there to make tournaments function. Current SC2 god-tier players = who can abuse patch units/builds the most and happens to not be a jobber and bonus potential if they play the race that has been broken op for years on end
Talking about the "GOAT" is so overdone in every sport. It's just a mixture of bias and often no context is added to support an argument. No, I don't count "b-b-but he won this and this!". Who was the competition? How consistent are they? How long have they played for? How many competitors have they been tested against? Right now there is like 10 people playing Starcraft. It's such a pointless discussion to have at this moment. There is so many more questions to be asked that I didn't mention because it would take too long to even think about that.
Idk why it is that apparently Serral can not be the GOAT in some peoples minds. I really don't know what else the guy has to achieve that people will finally let it go. Will it be agreeable that he is the GOAT if he keeps his level for another year? 2 years? 5 years? What if Maru keeps playing too, can Serral ever become the GOAT or will it always be "but Maru's career is longer so he is GOAT". Also what's up with the he doesn't have a GSL title? He won the two GSL vs the world titles. Insisting that he absolutely HAS to move to Korea to play GSL is ridiculous. Absolutely cringe opinion, that someone should relocate just to prove it to some Koreaboo bullshitters. Even if he won it, they would still say that it doesn't count because "all the top pros retired already" and "he would never have made it during x period".... It's a total circlejerk for these guys and to them only a Korean can be the GOAT.
Also RT, you are putting emphasis on performance in offline tournaments but didn't bring up Serrals impressive stats in offline tournaments.
Serral also came at point where Korean Sc2 was on its last legs. It's hard to believe the same Serral we have now would be as dominant between 2013-2015 when starcraft 2 was at its peak in Korea. Maru has also been more dominant over a longer period of time and has played at top level for a much longer time which of course leads to burn out, where as Serral is relatively fresh since he has been competing at the top level for a shorter period of time. As to who is the GOAT I agree with Arty that Rogue deserves it, he is the most accomplished player by far.
The level of play is much higher now than it was in 2012. The games were sloppy and slow compared to now.
@@B1gLupu Of course its higher because we've been playing for a longer time. But if the korean scene been going as strong as it once did i highly doubt serral would have a chance. That's why in those days it was crazy to see any non korean win against a korean, but now its an everyday ocurrence.
@@B1gLupu Serral is essentially ruling over a crumbling empire, as the Korean scene is quite small and most korean pros are not putting in as much effort as they used to back then. The competition is less fierce. Thats why you can see Clem give Serral a hard time, but Maru can't even take a game off him. he's at his zenith meanwhile Maru's just looking for a paycheck.
Maru has won like 3 tournaments between 2010 and 2018. pretty much everything he has won he won after 2018 and serral has outshined him for literally ever since that. Rogue also only started winning in 2017.
Maru was never more dominant and saying he had a longer carrer beacasue of 3 tournaments is quite an insane take
@@norberthiz9318 What a gross misrepresentation of Maru's acomplishments. He has 7 Gsl wins and other wins as well $1,287,993 in earnings, go look at his liqupedia page. Even then I still don't think he deserves the title of GOAT since Korean Sc2 isn't as fierce as it used to be back then. SoS deserves the title of GOAT based on his accomplishments and achieved them when Sc2 still had serious competition. Rogue would be a close 2nd.
Agree
why maru cant come to EU?
ah, wish my point from an hour earlier got across, but feels good to have reaffirmation, that rogue would be closest for goat sc2, but its not really at a Jerry Rice undisputed, TB12 (tsk) can't argue after winning in Tampa. But rogue was so dominant, he got flash treatment by tourney organizer. BLIZZARD TOOK A 10 YEAR OLD SPELL AWAY FROM INFESTORS. it wasn't a nerf like tweaking duration, range, cost, THEY TOOK A SPELL THAT WAS THERE FROM ORIGINAL GAME AND TWO EXPANSIONS, to stop rogue. this latest patch? oh ya, burrowed infestors are too hard to see, just little bigger, oh ya makes sense they shouldn't have more vision burrowed than a pylon, all reasonable fixes. Roget gets infested terrans replaced by garbo unusable dark swarm lite. flash gets 0% terran win rate maps like Sparkle put into pool, and indefensible mineral lines in the natural are standard for 50% of maps in pool.
Rogue has the quality but not the quantity and longevity. IMO Maru by a slight hair, could be overtaken by Serral if he does another couple years of dominance OUTSIDE GSL, it would be a slam dunk for Serral if he actually went to GSL and won.
"Just go to GSL bro"
Surprisingly well-reasoned RT, but I disagree. Rogue has a proven to be the best across different types of formats, Serral has had arguably the strongest peak performances, but Maru wins easily not just due to having impressive results but the spread of said results. In other words, Maru has a big edge in LONGEVITY. It's really alarming that people only ever seem to acknowledge his 7 GSL wins (already enough to put him on top IMO), but never seem to mention that he's also an OSL and SSL champion and he won those during the Kespa Era (lightyears more competitive than what we've had for LotV). People either weren't around or simply forgot we've actually had other Korean Starleagues in sc2, that's how long Maru has been a champion-class player (since 2013). Not to mention he was top 3 in every season of Proleague while we had it (something Kespa teams put high priority in). He's weathered the storm of dozens or balance patches, huge player turnover (remember there was a huge surge of Koreans in and out of the scene between 2013-2016), and managed to adapt between different iterations of sc2. Mind you, this is in the context of a STRATEGY game.
That imho is far more impressive than anything Rogue, Serral or anyone else has accomplished. Maru is the GOAT and his results have been so ubiquitous throughout the history of the game, that to say otherwise borders on being direspectful to the legacy of sc2.
Well Maru wasn't in number 1 contention in Korea until 2017, he had a rough time before that but he was never considered the best especially in the presence of thou that shall not be named. And I can say that after 2018 he should've never been considered the best so there is arguably only two years where he was within reason the best player.
I mean he hasn't beaten Serral at lan since the WESPA whereas serral has had a legitimate claim as number since 2018. 6 years vs 2?
Life and Fruitdealer are my GOATS. I don't care what anyone says, and facts don't matter.
I mean Serral has clearly stated that he doesn't want to spend over a month in Korea for a gsl, he doesn't want to basically live over there he's said it in interviews and its a fair opinion. Don't hold it against him seriously he has a winning record vs any other modern goat candidate I mean hes never lost to Rogue at lan and he hasn't lost to Maru at lan since 2017. This is just denial I mean I guess you could argue he isn't the goat but you CANNOT argue he isn't the best player ever. Is there a difference idk but there must be since Serral can be disputed by other modern players.
The ultimate rogue fanboy
Who has had the greatest impact on how the game is played? ie. Changes the meta most often.
A kind of goat though not THE 🐐
Finally someone speaking the Truth
Even if Serral could be the Goat. Serral is bad for SC2 as he picks his fights.
SC2 would have been in a better position now if Maru just won the latest Katowice.
Serral is bad for SC2.
Good thing Arty doesn't decide the GOAT.