The Clash of the Codes: League vs. Union - Wigan vs. Bath
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
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*Correction*
Bath won 6 English cups, not Anglo-Welsh cups. Welsh teams were added mid-2000s. (credit:@ratzachewy)
I use a ton of sources in this video, I will list them here.
Tony Collins - Rugby Reloaded (When Two Cultures Clash)
/ s-bm3vtxiarnq
Mud and Blood Podcast - Episode 117
open.spotify.c...
The Golden Point Podcast - Episode 148
www.spreaker.c...
The Independent
www.independen...
The Rugby Paper
www.therugbypa...
The Game that Got Away
thegamethatgot...
Serious About Rugby League
www.seriousabo...
The Linebreaker (Spanish Language)
thelinebreaker...
Dude. I’m speechless. This video was superb. You captured it all with the photos and ex-player commentary. The background music was spot on. The beautiful thing about you and I is we love both codes. Being a dual coder I was always fascinated by these games. I found it odd when the Union fans sang ‘Swing Low Sweet Chariots’ while playing another English team albeit Rugby League. You brought something up I’ve never thought about. The League boys could’ve gotten seriously hurt in those scrums. It’s sad there’s so much resentment by both sides even to this day. I’m fully aware of the history. I know guys from both sides today who can’t stand each other’s sports. These Autumn Nations Cup
games in Union show the importance of the international game in sports. Rugby League could learn so much from that. Yet, I will say with some of those boys in Oz choosing to represent Tonga it’s dramatically made it so much more interesting. Love the vid and love your work. Sorry for texting you at 1:30 AM EST. I was just too damn excited. Love Rugby League and Rugby Union. 🏉
I remember watching this live and the stand out feature was how many concessions the officials made to Bath in the RL and routinely ignored Bath being off-side or lying on at the tackle but this favour was never repaid in the union game. The ref penalised Wigan off the park for any indiscretion as if they were an experienced union team and yet Bath still didn't run away with the game. Keep in mind also that Wigan were recognised at that time as being a real giant of the game, they'd been full time pro's for a long time, something that most of the other RL clubs had been struggling to match for a long time prior to the Super League era.
Oh please, in both game Wigan tackled high or used other unsportmanship tricks and still couldn't impress at it's own game.
Bath DOMINATED the union game despite the soft scrums (otherwise league boys would get hurt)
Jason Robinson (aka Billy Whizz) who played for Wigan in these games crossed over to Rugby Union, permanently, in 2000, after winning everything in RL. He made his debut for the England Rugby Union team in 2001 and was a very popular fixture in the side including the 2003 World Cup and was also selected for two British and Irish Lions tours. The main point is he was a world class performer in both codes which very few players have achieved.
Winning everything doesn't include the most competitive and best league in the world(NRL), and the world cup.
@@mitchellsmith300 I will ritually chastise myself tonight!
He did win the world club challenge in Australia though. Won everything he could with Wigan
I’m a Rugby Union guy at heart but I’m also from the north of England so naturally have a soft spot for rugby league. I love your videos man and the fact you’re an American shocked me the first time I watched. Keep it up I can see you becoming one of my favourite channels.
Speaking of cross codes my university team play an annual friendly between the rugby union and league teams where we swap codes at half time. It can sometimes flair up but apart from a a few verbal jabs it’s usually very civil.
Woah. This means a lot to me! I didn't know whether to continue to make videos as I thought my American-ness was too much of a distraction. On my first video, I faked an Australian accent. 🤣
I really appreciate the comment and that cross-code game sounds cool af.
I love to see the games unite
I’m a massive fan of both codes. I follow both religiously. I’m a Sale Sharks fan the past 8 years. Since I got into both codes. I watch every single Sharks game and worked the LA Giltinis the MLR team for a year. I totally get the nuance and different games aspects of Union. There are many more variables. I thin watch State of origin and marvel at those games. The ball in play action is astonishing. Nothing comes close. Your guaranteed collisions over and over again with no lull. Again, I love both games. I feel like League addressed a lot the growing pains years ago that Union is now facing. Sadly, I think sports in general all over the world aren’t what they used to be in regards to attendance.
Great video mate. That wigan team was totally stacked. Some of those players had a massive impact on union when they went across. You will never see a great wigan team again because the money is in rugby, Owen Farrell should be a league boy. The best of both codes is the nrl in Australia. When those players cross over they always have an impact
Interesting to see an American's take on this - I was a season ticket holder at Wigan and went to the RL match against Bath at Maine Road (I think...), but played RU and had a few seasons in the juniors at Orrell, the team that coached Wigan for the RU match. That Wigan side was one of the finest rugby teams the world has ever seen in either code, the talent on display was astonishing. Having Martin Offiah and Jason Robinson in the same team was just unfair to everyone else!
Shame what happend to Orrell.
@@chrisr5499 Arguably criminal if you dig deeper into what happened...
@@chrisr5499 I'm from Orrell and I agree 100%.
I really enjoyed this documentary.
What do you think I could do to improve? What topics do you think would attract more viewers?
I really appreciate your consistent support!
Footy Balls You could become a clone like so many other Rugby League UA-camrs and do "Predicted 2022 Lineup Videos" with Gangster Rap or Techno in the background, they are the only videos that really get a tonne of views but I would prefer you didn't do that.
@@RugbyLeagueHistory Those videos have no replay value after the match is over. That's why I'm trying to make videos like these.
@@New_World_Rugby Keep up the good work
Most rugby fans of both codes in the 1970s and 80s knew full well that the top players in union were being paid unofficially with secret sponsorship deals. Nothing wrong with that, it was just the awful hypocrisy and snobbery of the Rugby Football Union that was hard to take. Threatening life bans for any union players that played rugby league was ridiculous, when some of those top union players were probably being paid more than most rugby league players at that time.
Before Super League started, most professional rugby league players were part time and had other jobs during the week.
There's no evidence whatsoever that top RU players were being paid unofficially and their salaries were higher than 'most rugby league players'. That's bullshit. The reason RU players left RU to join RL was because of money. They could jack their day jobs in and become full time professionals.
@@HDIrwin You really believe that? OK. The word gullible springs to mind.🤣
Read it again, knobhead.
I can read just fine and what is more, I don't need to resort to childish *abuse to make my point. As I said, I think you are very gullible.
*I will make an exception in your case, so GFY.
I knew two people, both sadly now dead, involved in rugby around the start of the 1970s.
One played 2nd ir 3rd XV and sometimes 1st, for a very well known club. I don't know what club the other one played for but he played for a wandering side with several international players, including very well known Welshmen.
They both told me separately that it was well known that top Welsh players received boot money, and plenty of it.
I do remember this at the time and it was fascinating. I was hoping it would be a regular thing but I think both codes have become so professional now and there are so many games that I don't think it will ever happen again
Money will talk in the long run and Union and League will be one as I don't watch Super League anymore as it's the same old teams and the same with Union premiership.
One thing not mentioned was the lineout ball in the union game was also a massive factor because Wigan didn't have anyone tall enough to win lineouts so they had to bring out Graeme West from retirement for Wigan because he was 6ft 5ins. There is no place in rugby league for that athletic, tall, lanky lock forwards that wins lineout balls in union. Most rugby league forwards and backs these days are of a similar size compared to union forwards and backs. Two entirely different games that showed in the 'Clash of the Codes'.
yes in rugby we have all shapes in league the dont
I played both codes at a decent level. Not the top tier but one or two divisions below depending on which side I was playing for. In spite of the 'Amateur' status of Union it was far from it in terms of compensation. The only significant differences between the two aside from the rules were in preparation and attitude. We trained hard and prepared in depth game plans in League, which was starkly different to the more socially focused Union where a game plan was something akin to a couple of special moves off of scrums and lineouts or calls for certain players to receive from those lineouts. Which is very ironic considering how complex the Union game is. ~~They are different games, Chess and Chequers, and I hope they can work together going forward to give players an avenue in each to excel. Playing as a forward in Union is fun, playing as a back in League is far more involving than the Union counterpart.
You took the words out of my mouth. Union was never ‘amateur’ at the top levels and equally a lot of lads playing decent level league still had to work.
You're both talking absolute shite. All you need to do is look at the difference of physique of union players from around 96 when the game had only just gone pro to now when their has been nearly 30 years. The players are 100x more skillful, stronger, fitter, faster and the game is so much more complex in every aspect due to the amount of time they spend training and getting everything honed. Back in the 90s, it was still amateur. Some top top players would get compensation but they still only trained a couple of evenings a week maximum on top of day jobs. If you look at the difference between league players from 96 and now their isn't much difference. The game hasn't moved on that much
@@judaspriest4957 back in the late 80's and early 90's every player in the 5 nations was being compensated for their time at club and international level. That is professionalism. The change in their bodies is more due to application of sports science, rigorous training away from the club bar and rule changes than anything else. Noticed the difference in League players bodies over the same period, due to the same factors?
Lol, showing Bobby Goulding and St Helens when describing Wigan not realising Wigan were playing in away colours that match.
Can you show me the specific time so I can make a note of it in the description?
@@New_World_Rugby Sure, 3.20, otherwise entertaining vid. 👍
@@speak_your_truth. and 5:50
As a Yank, I prefer Union because it looks more like Gridiron. League is oddly repetitive. I certainly appreciate both codes.
league is the better game , faster , more brutal tackling , more entertaining , the NRL is the pinnacle of the sport , St Helens and Penrith Panthers are the teams i follow
Each to their own. Having played both I enjoyed League but found it a bit repetitive with much less variation. I enjoy the tactics of Union. As a back 3 player I need to understand when to run, pass, kick (then what kind of kick), where support is etc whereas in League it was just ‘run’. It was fun but a little mind numbing.
@@brentmeistergeneral6074 ,true I like league too but prefer union league is too one dimensional and repetitive and no one really cares about league outside a couple of states in Australia and PNG look at the league world cup what a joke of a tournament.
Featherstone rovers fan here, well said
@@brentmeistergeneral6074 where in the back 3 would you never pass??
League is too repetitive and predictable.
Union had been paying players for years. The Romanian team consisted of "soldiers" who in were in the military but trained rugby all the time. The amount of "students", "farmers" and "self employed" players was astounding across the world. On an unfortunate personal side note, I was a young and vulnerable student back then. I finished University and in truth should have gone straight into the workplace. I did a Masters for bad reasons. I did it because I was immature and scared to go into the workplace. There was nothing to be frightened of! But, I saw so many 22-24 year old's in the game I love being students and thought that was perfectly fine and normal. I have actually never recovered from that mistake. My career took years to properly kickstart as who wants to take on the perpetual student.
I'm sure I remember shaun Edwards saying if they'd have been paid a bonus to reach 100 points, they'd have done it easily! Wigan were never going to win the union match as its far too complicated and technical. But at 25-0 down at half time and finishing 44-19, it didn't take them long to work out the best way to try and match Bath. The Wigan side of the late 80s -90s was unreal,.................and I'm a Warrington fan!!
Would love for something to happen now seeing as both codes are fully professional. But union would want set piece involved and league wouldn't, not to mention trying to get insurance for the clash would be a nightmare.
"It's" also "a lot better" than American football.
Hybrid match like gaa vs afl in international rules football. But the weird hybrid games is austus is hybrid sports of american football vs australian football in ww2
Would you like to see a video on hybrid sports?
@@New_World_Rugby yes
imagine if the top aussie club from the nrl was playing the score would have been even more ,the nrl was even more professional than the superleague and still is
The 1997 World Club Challenge was ridiculous as many Aussie SL teams went undefeated against their English SL opposition. Wigan was the most successful European super league team with 2 wins and 4 losses.
The real question is if an NRL team could dominate against a French RU team, like Toulouse for example.
Fun fact: League players did play Uion in the services. Several tough League players turned out at Twickenham in the annual Army vs. Royal Navy game
Not that many though. League standard is much lower than Union standard in the services and you’ll find that those that played both, like me, were Union players first who had a go at league (and actually really enjoyed it). Most league players don’t make the Union teams!
Former Australian captain Mal Maninga played Union for the Queensland Police.
Wigan not bothering to put players back on the pitch is hilarious
First time on your channel from Soccer obbsessed Newcastle UK but love Rugby League and then got into Rugby Union despite its drawbacks and also love Gridiron histroy of NCAA,Pro Football, CFL and One Man Platoon but really agree it's all better the Soccer :)
I love gridiron history too. But the modern American football game has gone too far and I'm totally dedicated to Rugby (either code). Thanks for watching!
The league boys smashed em 😊
True but respect to the union boys for not "killing" Wigan in the scrums.
And were summarily smashed in the reverse fixture, and the yawnion boys went easy on them in the set piece.
@@speak_your_truth. i watched this game and played both the best atheletes at the time played league even the union greats i.e lomu, the games would be much closer now although
@@productstoyou yes you are correct it would indeed 👍
Union boys destroyed League in second leg 😆
You forgot to mention that Wigan had many ex-RU players. Even the RL fanatical Shaun Edwards had captained England schoolboys at RU.
Amazing video. Great insight.
My local RUFC banned a guy from entering the clubhouse as he went up north and played league he was a top player in both codes...but that did not matter
Union has gradually become similar to League. Rules have been changed (not all) to encourage more attacking play (they still need to sort out the ridiculous amount of time wasted at scrums and the pens given for minor, technical infringements which even the commentators don't explain why they were given - because they don't know). I remember following Union from the 60s when you were lucky to see 1try in an international. Matches would end 3-3, 6-0 for example. But now 5 pts for a try also encourages more attacking play. David Duckham barely touched the ball during his England career - he was still regarded as a great player even so - he would be a sensation these days.
Absolutely agree with you on the ridiculous time wasting with scrum penalties that are nothing but pedantic rubbish. The fact that deliberately rotating the scrum (which is extremely dangerous!) was once illegal (for that very reason) and is now REWARDED by penalising the OTHER team, is one that absolutely staggers me. I cannot stand the time wasting that I see in RU these days and the pedantry (not to mention downright WRONG CALLS) shown by match officials (most often the video Ref) has me preferring to watch Rugby League most of the time, because the free flowing, running game I played as a No.6, 7, or 8 back in the early 70’s has disappeared from the RU landscape, to be replaced with somethijng that’s more like American football, where players stand around more of the time than they are in motion. I DETEST RU games that are won by the number of Penalties kicked.
keep it up the videos bro try post too the rugby union subreddit. rugby needs people like you
Thanks man! No other video about this was on UA-cam so I decided to make one myself.
What about Bradford demolishing union teams lol
Maybe a controversial opinion but I think league and union should merge. I like both codes and I respect the history of both sports but I think if we want to grow rugby - we need to come together
Would be very interesting to see a hybrid game
With Union's rules
@@NoName-hg6cc I think we would have to compromise but I think it's important we still have scrumming and rucking in some form but also embrace parts of the league game in this hypothetical scenario
@@viewer.123 Well, in my opinion there is no need for a merged game with merged rules. The original version's rules should suffice.
But that's my opinion
Quick footnote: Bath didn't win 6 Anglo-Welsh cups, they won 6 English cups. Welsh teams were added in the mid-2000s (at the expense of any English side not in the Premiership).
Thanks for that. I'll add to description.
Excellent video (except for showing St Helens). Keep up the good work.
He won't keep up the Good work in this channel because He is now a big Cricket fan and has a cricket channel... He's done with Rugby
Also Rugby Union had just turned professional and Bath were still an amateur team.
Bulls fan. Wigan were unstoppable back then
Ok i don't know if this happened or not but allegedly a game where half the game was played under American football 🏈 rules & the second half was played under union rules with a longer halftime to change uniforms. I was told it was played in Jacksonville Florida. Both teams were amateurs & the union team won big.
Great video lad
Ha ha , northern beat the southern Twats . It was awesome watching Wigan , what about when Wigan played the rugby union sevens and won. Great times
Took 8 players to stop Jason Robinson@1:57 🔥
Union fans say that Rugby League is such a simple game. Go figure.
Exactly. Such a simple game. They can’t play it
It is. That game was a pro team vs an amateur team!
5 tackles, kick ball, repeat…. doesn’t get any more simple than that.
@@Primal-Weed like ruck ruck ruck ohh ruck it some more. Go no where put up a box kick bomb from your own 22 or play for a penalty. Talk about simple.
@@chris123-r7c league will forever live in Rugby’s shadow.
Just to say when you were introducing Wigan .. you had highlights of St Helen’s playing Wigan but St Helen’s scoring
I know... I know! 🤣
Bath could have had the perfect presentation and still lost by 80 in the League game
The Aussie rules AFL and the Irish GAA used to do something similar every year. I think the first half was played with one ball/rules and the second half played with the other ball/rules? Don't think they still do it anymore?
They had a series planned for 2020 and 2022 but canceled due to Covid. I think they will continue doing these games.
@@New_World_Rugby Yeah, I looked at the 2015 game (I think), now they play the whole game using a GAA ball and rules.
I prefer league and have Wigan season ticket ,it's faster game, while Union are constantly
stopping
That Wigan team was so good it could have beaten the top NFL team at American Football.
🤣🤣🤣
As some one out Rugby popularity from European Country. I think biggest problem for Rugby bot Codes for become Global sport and have chance come to close to Ass Football is that more fun athletic Rugby League is just smalll reginal Sport that on top level is played just in England, Australia, New Zeland, Union other hand is much more spread around World but stayed amateur everywhere. It boring with stupit scrums and Penalty rules and to much players on pich. Solution is for me unification with Leauge Rules and reduce number of players to 11.
Making all sorts of excuses for Bath here
Where's Piemans comments? Also this video doesnt outline the players missing for bath and the fact they were only 9 months into being professionals many of the team weren't even on minimum wage due to Guscott taking up most of the cap. He also didn't play in these fixtures.
Good video apart from showing st Helen's ( Wigan's biggest rivals ) when talking about wigan. If this wasn't done to deliberately wind wigan fans up you may want to change it. As a Hull fc fan I thought it was funny as
Yeah just lazy editing. It was a coincidence. Haha
Rugby union has way to much down time . Penalty after penalty , balls out of play way to much . Wendell sailor once said in union he could sit out on the wing all day kicking stones .
That Bath team didn't have England's best forwards of the time. Johnson, Richards, rodber.
There has been multiple cross code games since then
Can you name which ones or are there links to these games? Inquiring minds want to know!
@@New_World_Rugby there was also a game between semi professional Randwick and western suburbs magpies although cant really be used as Randwick played an under 23s side purely made of semi professionals with the magpies playing nrl contracted players.
@@New_World_Rugby also I forgot about sale vs st helens in 03 to which sale won
ive seen an exhibition game the rules were league outide of the 22 and rugby in the 22 zone. 13 a team contested 6 man scrum every time and i think line outs every time
Wow do you have video of that? I've seen a half of the game rugby league half rugby union with 14 a side.
@@New_World_Rugby fb.watch/hW85H6tZU6/ found video
Found they have their own website too hybridrugby.
In South Africa league was denied stadiums in 1960 could find no stadiums and league was killed today they not allowed to use premier stadium today league amateur in South African . League not popular in Australia there is a war between league and Australa started in Australia by rugby league wants to take is global
League>>Union
Union>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>League
@@NoName-hg6cc Yawnion*
@@adam_2539 *Mungoleague or mungoball
I use to love League I grew up watching it N wouldn't miss a game of Origin or the broncos playing but when my brain developed with age I also developed an acquired taste for a more complex form of rugby. Now I find league super boring and lame and brainless to watch. Rugby Union is this best rugby and should be the only rugby played in the world. Sorry if i offended any League fans but it's true once you understand half the rules of Union you will realise how lame League is and how much better and competitive Union is.
I was the opposite. To be honest the games are quite similar now. Union is a bit slower.
This game was a joke Wigan were the best league club in the world then but Bath were only the best in the NH everyone knows the best union clubs are in the SH if Wigan played the Auckland Blues who were the best union club in the world at the time with many ABs like Lomu it would've been a totally different story union is far bigger and popular than league for a reason it's better
Twicken Ham
American accent problems
@@New_World_Rugby haha sounded funny
Union is too stop and start, that is why they can't compete in RL, they just can't do it without a breather every 10 seconds, if they get beogged down it's kick after kick after kick. Boring and not as exciting as League, played by toffs that think they are rebelious, try going on a tour with a League side, wow.
League seems more like stop and start, 5 stop and star and a kick. Rinse and repeat.
For people not too bright and with short attention span
union would not fair well now, they wouldn’t be able to deal with the contact from league players, the physicality is worlds apart, i play both codes
is that why when league players go to union their tackle percentage drops?
What a load of crap. NRL is full of Rugby talent.
I cant follow Rugby League. To me it seems to be Rugby Light. Their scrums are loose and uncontested. If the ball is not in contest then why scrum. They don't ruck for the ball. No lineouts and driving mauls. It is almost like it isn't Rugby at all.
League is the harder game to play. You talk about scrums. Yes most are uncontested. But they don’t take 5mins to set. Unions way too slow and boring. Line outs are plain stupid. Kicking the ball out from inside your own 22m is stupid.
Then you’ll have 15phases and go no where so put up a midfield bomb.
League is based on attacking play. Union is based on playing for penalties
@@chris123-r7c Agree Chris. Also take time to look at one of the rugby backs. Lets say a center for example. Particularly on defense of their line when the apposing team is 'attacking' During ruck after ruck after ruck. The center will be standing there doing absolutely nothing for very long periods of time. In league that same position would be, rush up to the opposition, retreat 10, rush up, retreat. he's moving all the time. Must faster, and fitter. I played both. In New Zealand the schools for absolutely bias towards rugby. They still are. I would play League on Saturday's and the school always wanted me to play rugby on the same day. If they clashed time wise. Tough rugby., you miss out. I found rugby, scrappy, random, where the hell is the ball, it was all over the place? Whereas League was flowing, tougher, fitter. It was so much easier to beat a man in Rugby as tackling happened far less in rugby, probably due to the defense expecting you to kick it past them.
I played both and League was fun but repetitive whereas Union had much more to it. More options as a back 3 player (run, kick, pass, find support etc) whereas League was just run! It’s like touch and pass with tackles. But again, it was fun. Each to their own but much prefer league
I believe that grassroots rugby is losing players, and 14 to 12 aside teams could be the norm. Also, uncontested scrums ar being considered. go figure.
@@frankhyland6333 where? league is dying faster in Australia than Union....fun fact
better than soccer ? subjective comment !! union in particular has been watered down a lot since the game shown here, it's choked by rules, too slow around infringements, and is indifferent to paying fans when yellow and red cards are shown, it penalises the whole team for one players mistake, it takes away the spectacle of 15 v 15 giving a huge advantage to the opposition, bad infringements should be dealt with after the end of the game.
Watered down? Slow? The modern game is much quicker, more full of tactics and overall much better to play and watch.
You must be an old school player?
@@brentmeistergeneral6074 we'll have to agree to disagree.
Teams have learned to play on 14. Beside, in soccer to it's more difficult to play 10 vs 11
@@speeddemon9555 Is also full of games won by team in 14
History is full of soccer games won because of a red card