One of the best Fisk arrival videos I've ever seen and I've watched a ton. I like how you dissect the issue and how even a very experienced pilot like yourself can get "into the box". Wow ... makes me realize how Jack Roush must have gotten crossed up in a similar way when he crashed his Premier there.
Thank you for showing your mistakes and letting us all learn from them! As a low time pilot, I find it inspiring that you show us how easily mistakes can happen even for advanced pilots. Calling attention to it (without your ego getting in the way) is a great benefit to us all.
Was watching the 180 to final, and I felt "ohh inside rudder", good job catching yourself and making learning moments for all of us. That there is a hang glider approach, intense stuff.
Another issue is the fact that often airplanes are loaded to the brim with camping stuff, so the cg is further aft than when going for a $100 hamburger. Add that to the mix of stress and fatigue and things can get interesting. It seems almost every year there is a stall spin. Practice with the airplane loaded the way it will be loaded for your trip.
Some of the points you make in this about recognizing, acknowledging, and correcting mistakes are fantastic. It shows that nobody is immune to accidentally doing something you've been trained not to under stress. Always stay humble and never let ego get in the way of learning and becoming a better pilot
Awesome video Jason. Sitting in CFI school right now and this video is pretty timely as we were discussing this earlier in the week. That’s a lot of stress and high workload going on there. Way to go! Always enjoy your videos.
Great video, very informative. One thing I had an issue with flying in this year was wake turbulence landing behind a much larger aircraft. While as PIC I am ultimately responsible for my safety, I allowed the busy tower to push me up close and encountered vicious turb at touchdown. I considered going around but knew that would mean I would have not camped with my friends. So that’s two poor choices, call it two strikes. Wake turbulence might be something that needs to be discussed as there was several issues with it this year. I hadn’t seen it discussed leading up to it.
Brilliant analysis of the events and an A+ on turning those into a teachable moment. I'm amazed that there aren't more close calls, or worse, flying into Oshkosh.
If this was Monday afternoon, I heard the “are you a flight” call over ATC live on the drive up. We got a laugh out of that call, but now I see why it happened. Good work, and thanks for the great content.
Great explanation Jason, best illustration I have ever seen, makes sense now. You can hear the breathing as you land, that’s the stress indicator! Well done.
It's because of your videos that I find myself saying out loud "keep the nose coming down" when turning in the pattern now. Awesome video Jason. Keep up the good work!
This is a great video - you've earned a sub here! I'm a new pilot with only 180 TT in a 172 and archer. Sharing this kind of info as a experienced pilot really just reminds us new guys that task saturation can happen to anyone. A great reminder that staying vigilant with any amount of experience and in all situations can keep you safe and flying. Cant wait to eventually fly out there!
Just awesome to share this Jason. Last year, on my first visit, i was so excited to get a “ rock your wings, turn right east along Fisk Road.....” for 36......completely in awe of the experience, the traffic-in the air and on the ground, etc, etc, ....i forgot that i was flying a base leg....nearly overshot, should have...as i crunched everything (BBCGUMPS) into the base leg and then landed on the wrong dot as a result of being flustered..... so very nearly #metoo!
Great video for those of us that dream of flying into Osh Kosh some day. This is the first video where I get a good picture of distance between planes during the approach. And I have watched many. Thanks!!
Nice job. You seem like a very good CFI. I remember my first Fisk arrival being very stressful...Long before UA-cam. I had the opportunity to fly the warbird arrival in a T-28 once way less stressful and a beautiful airplane.
The title of this video hit pretty close to home for me, as a friend of mine (RV-8 builder with a distinctive paint scheme) had a landing incident at OSH that ended up with the aircraft on it's belly off the runway. No one was hurt, but it was hard to hear about. Also, this video was a milestone for me because as you know, I've contributed to (and been in) a few Flight Chops videos... but this is the first time I got a cameo in one of your videos. First row of the AOPA seminar has it's advantages ;) Anyway, another great video to think about. Thanks again, Jason, for a detailed assessment of a very risky situation that I intend to face in the future.
Steep bank angle isn't a problem, just don't pull back and you won't stall. Try it in the practice area with decent altitude, it's back pressure that will cause you to stall, not bank angle. The idea that bank angle in the pattern is a problem is why you are doing the hazardous act of rudder skid at low speed(with your stall horn chirping too) that actually causes the pattern accidents.
I was watching, like everyone else, saw that turn and was like “what is Jason doing turning like that”. I have a tough time recognizing when I’m in a skid, but that one was pretty obvious for me. Great job explaining it. I’ve done that approach 4 other times and I’m not sure I’ve slid that much. :)
Are you a flight? No? Well you are now. Good job catching yourself and correcting the issue, avoiding the potential of a stall and crash. Too many pilots already have crashed at osh.
Man I'm glad you posted this. One of the things that I keep at the front of my thinking while in the pattern or slow and turning is "no bottom rudder, check the ball". That stems from a situation similar to yours except I was just in the pattern and overshot the base to final turn. I caught what I was doing, fixed it, and executed a go around ( I was way off). That was 15+ years ago. Sometime after I had to go to a private airport community to check our pipeline a day after a student pilot AND HIS PASSENGER
I was there Thursday to Thursday. GAC was closed due to soft, muddy grass after some pretty impressive storms Friday and Saturday. I remember seeing the Bird Dog land while listening to my handheld at my camp spot in the North 40 very near Rwy 27 (highwing shade and landing entertainment). Glad I arrived early. My Northface tent and Flyties survived the 50 kt gusts and rain. Can’t say the same for cheaper tents and some Claw tiedowns my neighbors had. Sorry we didn’t meet. So many activities caused conflicting schedules.
When they close camping I think tall, wet grass (can't mow wet grass) or mud. In that context, "large singles" probably has more to do with weight vs tire size. A relatively small experimental aircraft equipped with small tires will have a lot of trouble on saturated turf.
Interesting discussion on what constitutes a "heavy" single; per FAA weight classes that would probably be anything over 12500 lbs, but I'm not aware such an aircraft even exists? Anything as big as that big would have at least two engines.
Lemme see if I got this right. Gusting x-wind, turning base and final with the stall buzzer going off. Riding it on the raggedy edge, worrying about which rudder is best if you stall/spin it? Whoa!!! At what point would you have told ATC "unable" and broken off the approach? This is why one really needs to set a Minimum Maneuvering Speed and stick with it. Glad you made it and hope you had a great time.
Great video and info. In general that looked like a really tight pattern. Was there anything to be done earlier to try and alleviate the spacing problem or was it just bad luck being squeezed by a slow and fast plane? Don’t think I’ll be flying into osh anytime soon.
A top tip is if your skills aren’t up to the task or you just don’t want to experience the gut wrenching stress... fly into ATW just north. They have buses running between the airports.
We had to overtake a Cessna 140 about a half mile before rippon from the SW corner of Green lake when we came in on Wednesday of the Show. We fly a PA-32RT-300 and the Cessna 140 randomly slowed to about 75 knots. Our Lance is challenging to fly at 90 knots and still hold altitude so we had no choice but to pass them on the right. Gear were down and one notch of flaps were in to make it more stable. We tried to slow down to their speed but we were sinking quick. Then a Bonanza cut us off at Rippon but it all worked out. Lots of wake turbulence and all the people in front of us breaking procedure as far as the downwind and base listed in the NOTAM's so we just followed the traffic in front of us on the wide(north side of the gravel pit) and extended downwind way out over the lake at the approach end of 27 followed by the consequently long final until landing on the Orange dot just like y'all. Amazing experience and wouldn't trade it for much of anything.
I'm not a pilot so this may be a dumb question, but I believe you said they sent the plane behind you back and there wasn't anyone directly behind you. Since there was no one directly behind you, could you have widened out and extended the downwind leg a little to get more spacing?
I too live in the Bay Area and have always wanted to fly into Osh. What was your route? Having said that, every video I watch of that arrival just seems to be insane 😉. Maybe someday I’ll give it a shot. That’s for your great work and for sharing so others can learn.
I was flying with a friend getting some aerial photos of Big Boy rolling through Lake Elmo area (northeast St. Paul, MN) on Tuesday (first day of Oshkosh). He was talking with ATC and they erroneously told a pilot the grass was closed to aircraft parking.
It's tough to parse what you're saying here. If your point is that both top and bottom rudder is dangerous this is incorrect, it's extremely difficult to get in a spin from a slip. In my Decathlon I actually can't get it to spin while slipping. A skid will do it instantly, obviously. If your point is: stalling is bad when you're that close to the ground no matter what, no argument here.
I guess I am used to flying gliders where your allways on the rudders keeping the string straight (ball) coordinated and used to constant 360 degree turns to stay in rough air thermals at low speeds. Gliders long wings create lots of adverse yaw allways needing rudder to stay coordinated. Speed easier to judge base on wind noise, angle of attack, control mushiness and last is airspeed indicator. The risk of "top" rudder in a turn is the inside lower wing is physically flying slower, is 1st to stall, especially true in long winged gliders.
You kind of eluded to your "got to get there itis" but a bit of your bobble may have been attributed to fatigue. You had already flown for many hours from the bay area so one night sleep may not have been enough to recover from that.
The Finer Points Would a rule of “no rudder in the circuit until lined up on final” make sense, for landing, of course? I fly a tailwheel Glasair Sportsman.
Does the Notam say what you should do if the guy in front of you is too slow, as in this case? For example, can you get on the radio and say "speed up"?
My brother and I flew our family 337 in and had the same discussion about what constituted a heavy single. Why not just publish a max weight instead of this heavy single/twin verbiage?
Is there any interest in the GA community in "google glass" type technology? Seems like we have the capability now to make really light glasses which could have an HUD info display that seems like it would help with the whole "eyes outside" thing.
One of the best Fisk arrival videos I've ever seen and I've watched a ton. I like how you dissect the issue and how even a very experienced pilot like yourself can get "into the box". Wow ... makes me realize how Jack Roush must have gotten crossed up in a similar way when he crashed his Premier there.
Awesome stuff! Not just a pure FISK Arrival vid but some actual substance. Love it!
Thank you for showing your mistakes and letting us all learn from them! As a low time pilot, I find it inspiring that you show us how easily mistakes can happen even for advanced pilots. Calling attention to it (without your ego getting in the way) is a great benefit to us all.
Flying for 30 years here. I Always treat myself to buying some time with a CFI at least a couple of times a year.
Was watching the 180 to final, and I felt "ohh inside rudder", good job catching yourself and making learning moments for all of us. That there is a hang glider approach, intense stuff.
Another issue is the fact that often airplanes are loaded to the brim with camping stuff, so the cg is further aft than when going for a $100 hamburger. Add that to the mix of stress and fatigue and things can get interesting. It seems almost every year there is a stall spin. Practice with the airplane loaded the way it will be loaded for your trip.
Hi from Sioux Falls! Hope you enjoyed your time here!
Some of the points you make in this about recognizing, acknowledging, and correcting mistakes are fantastic. It shows that nobody is immune to accidentally doing something you've been trained not to under stress. Always stay humble and never let ego get in the way of learning and becoming a better pilot
Awesome video Jason. Sitting in CFI school right now and this video is pretty timely as we were discussing this earlier in the week. That’s a lot of stress and high workload going on there. Way to go! Always enjoy your videos.
Excellent visual description on the difference between stalling on the high or low wing. Five Stars Jason!
That approach and landing is what years of practice and theoretical knowledge culminates to!!!
Got to learn lot by just watching, thank you sir
Great video, very informative. One thing I had an issue with flying in this year was wake turbulence landing behind a much larger aircraft. While as PIC I am ultimately responsible for my safety, I allowed the busy tower to push me up close and encountered vicious turb at touchdown. I considered going around but knew that would mean I would have not camped with my friends. So that’s two poor choices, call it two strikes. Wake turbulence might be something that needs to be discussed as there was several issues with it this year. I hadn’t seen it discussed leading up to it.
I saw a vid of a v tail bonanza getting sheer from the tri motor ahead of him...barely recovered
Brilliant analysis of the events and an A+ on turning those into a teachable moment. I'm amazed that there aren't more close calls, or worse, flying into Oshkosh.
If this was Monday afternoon, I heard the “are you a flight” call over ATC live on the drive up. We got a laugh out of that call, but now I see why it happened. Good work, and thanks for the great content.
Great explanation Jason, best illustration I have ever seen, makes sense now. You can hear the breathing as you land, that’s the stress indicator! Well done.
Outstanding. All of it. Your videos are very entertaining, comprehensive, and well edited. Fly safe.
Thanks Matt! 🙏🏻
As a CFI I love your videos! Keep up the great work!
Those controllers are rock stars man 💫
This is a fantastic video, extremely valuable and applicable to many situations. Thank you !
God I love the adrenaline of the Oshkosh approach. Just hearing FISK gets me excited.
Love your videos man. You’re saving lives. 🙏
Hi Jason! You re awesome and you master your subject 😎 you nailed that orange dot so easily! Good job really. Best CFI 🤘🤘
It's because of your videos that I find myself saying out loud "keep the nose coming down" when turning in the pattern now. Awesome video Jason. Keep up the good work!
I really like how well you broke that down.
Good job, and thanks for being humble about a potential mistake, shows us all that it can happen to anybody!!
This is a great video - you've earned a sub here! I'm a new pilot with only 180 TT in a 172 and archer. Sharing this kind of info as a experienced pilot really just reminds us new guys that task saturation can happen to anyone. A great reminder that staying vigilant with any amount of experience and in all situations can keep you safe and flying. Cant wait to eventually fly out there!
Awesome lesson - as always!
What an intense video! Excellent learning points here!
Just awesome to share this Jason. Last year, on my first visit, i was so excited to get a “ rock your wings, turn right east along Fisk Road.....” for 36......completely in awe of the experience, the traffic-in the air and on the ground, etc, etc, ....i forgot that i was flying a base leg....nearly overshot, should have...as i crunched everything (BBCGUMPS) into the base leg and then landed on the wrong dot as a result of being flustered..... so very nearly #metoo!
Great video for those of us that dream of flying into Osh Kosh some day. This is the first video where I get a good picture of distance between planes during the approach. And I have watched many. Thanks!!
Martin Anidjar ; Oshkosh
I was holding my breath on that last turn . great job!
Nice job. You seem like a very good CFI. I remember my first Fisk arrival being very stressful...Long before UA-cam. I had the opportunity to fly the warbird arrival in a T-28 once way less stressful and a beautiful airplane.
Awesome video! as always!
Looks like they were having you guys do an overhead break style maneuver for landing
The title of this video hit pretty close to home for me, as a friend of mine (RV-8 builder with a distinctive paint scheme) had a landing incident at OSH that ended up with the aircraft on it's belly off the runway. No one was hurt, but it was hard to hear about. Also, this video was a milestone for me because as you know, I've contributed to (and been in) a few Flight Chops videos... but this is the first time I got a cameo in one of your videos. First row of the AOPA seminar has it's advantages ;) Anyway, another great video to think about. Thanks again, Jason, for a detailed assessment of a very risky situation that I intend to face in the future.
Steep bank angle isn't a problem, just don't pull back and you won't stall. Try it in the practice area with decent altitude, it's back pressure that will cause you to stall, not bank angle. The idea that bank angle in the pattern is a problem is why you are doing the hazardous act of rudder skid at low speed(with your stall horn chirping too) that actually causes the pattern accidents.
Loved the video, amazing!
Next year I’m practicing that traffic pattern before flying up. It’s super easy to get slow and or uncoordinated in that tight turn to final.
Incredible Video! Much different then flying in IFR like i did. Thanks for sharing! Really cool stuff Jason.
really enjoyed your video, Max
David David thank you very much!
Great demonstration of skill and flight!
Wow edge of seat flying there... yes speed is king as we say, thanks Jason.
I was watching, like everyone else, saw that turn and was like “what is Jason doing turning like that”. I have a tough time recognizing when I’m in a skid, but that one was pretty obvious for me. Great job explaining it. I’ve done that approach 4 other times and I’m not sure I’ve slid that much. :)
Great tips for Osh,,,,, Thank You,, your comments were “spot” on....
I really enjoyed the video !
Great Video! Thank you for sharing. Controlling airspeed and maintaining control. Beautifully done.
Damn Jason, that was intense. Thanks for the perspective!
This is awesome! Thank you so much for your perspective on the Fisk approach!
Are you a flight? No? Well you are now.
Good job catching yourself and correcting the issue, avoiding the potential of a stall and crash. Too many pilots already have crashed at osh.
Great job J.
Very well explained,great video guys and learned a lot from you,thank you.
what a great video. it must be chanllenging but fun as well.
Great video and another learning opportunity with distractions and low altitude turns! Thanks for great tips. See you there in 2020.
Great self evaluation Jason, especially form a low airtime pilot like myself
That was intense!
Man I'm glad you posted this. One of the things that I keep at the front of my thinking while in the pattern or slow and turning is "no bottom rudder, check the ball". That stems from a situation similar to yours except I was just in the pattern and overshot the base to final turn. I caught what I was doing, fixed it, and executed a go around ( I was way off). That was 15+ years ago. Sometime after I had to go to a private airport community to check our pipeline a day after a student pilot AND HIS PASSENGER
I was there Thursday to Thursday. GAC was closed due to soft, muddy grass after some pretty impressive storms Friday and Saturday. I remember seeing the Bird Dog land while listening to my handheld at my camp spot in the North 40 very near Rwy 27 (highwing shade and landing entertainment). Glad I arrived early.
My Northface tent and Flyties survived the 50 kt gusts and rain. Can’t say the same for cheaper tents and some Claw tiedowns my neighbors had.
Sorry we didn’t meet. So many activities caused conflicting schedules.
When they close camping I think tall, wet grass (can't mow wet grass) or mud. In that context, "large singles" probably has more to do with weight vs tire size. A relatively small experimental aircraft equipped with small tires will have a lot of trouble on saturated turf.
Wow. Super intense. Well managed. This definitely makes me think twice about flying in! I need more practice :-)
love your humbleness
Interesting discussion on what constitutes a "heavy" single; per FAA weight classes that would probably be anything over 12500 lbs, but I'm not aware such an aircraft even exists? Anything as big as that big would have at least two engines.
Lemme see if I got this right. Gusting x-wind, turning base and final with the stall buzzer going off. Riding it on the raggedy edge, worrying about which rudder is best if you stall/spin it? Whoa!!! At what point would you have told ATC "unable" and broken off the approach? This is why one really needs to set a Minimum Maneuvering Speed and stick with it. Glad you made it and hope you had a great time.
Appreciate ur humbless Jason.
Jason, had a chance to meet you at Oshkosh this year! Thanks for the content and the humbleness.
Great video and info. In general that looked like a really tight pattern. Was there anything to be done earlier to try and alleviate the spacing problem or was it just bad luck being squeezed by a slow and fast plane? Don’t think I’ll be flying into osh anytime soon.
What a great video Jason, thanks for this. Next year let's fly in together!
Sounds good, let's do it!
A top tip is if your skills aren’t up to the task or you just don’t want to experience the gut wrenching stress... fly into ATW just north. They have buses running between the airports.
We had to overtake a Cessna 140 about a half mile before rippon from the SW corner of Green lake when we came in on Wednesday of the Show. We fly a PA-32RT-300 and the Cessna 140 randomly slowed to about 75 knots. Our Lance is challenging to fly at 90 knots and still hold altitude so we had no choice but to pass them on the right. Gear were down and one notch of flaps were in to make it more stable. We tried to slow down to their speed but we were sinking quick. Then a Bonanza cut us off at Rippon but it all worked out. Lots of wake turbulence and all the people in front of us breaking procedure as far as the downwind and base listed in the NOTAM's so we just followed the traffic in front of us on the wide(north side of the gravel pit) and extended downwind way out over the lake at the approach end of 27 followed by the consequently long final until landing on the Orange dot just like y'all.
Amazing experience and wouldn't trade it for much of anything.
I'm not a pilot so this may be a dumb question, but I believe you said they sent the plane behind you back and there wasn't anyone directly behind you. Since there was no one directly behind you, could you have widened out and extended the downwind leg a little to get more spacing?
Way to stick the landing! I did my training out of Oshkosh. Its good exercise landing on those dots.
Thank you for this honest video.
awesome!!! thanks for sharing!!
Great video Jason
Holy high stress situation! Good recovery!
Wow on the edge!
Very informative! Nice job!
Like a glove!
I too live in the Bay Area and have always wanted to fly into Osh. What was your route? Having said that, every video I watch of that arrival just seems to be insane 😉. Maybe someday I’ll give it a shot. That’s for your great work and for sharing so others can learn.
Nice video, can't wait to try myself...it was good meeting you guys at AOPA Tent
I was flying with a friend getting some aerial photos of Big Boy rolling through Lake Elmo area (northeast St. Paul, MN) on Tuesday (first day of Oshkosh). He was talking with ATC and they erroneously told a pilot the grass was closed to aircraft parking.
For a relatively low time (
That was a pucker factor of 8!
Wow, I was so scared. Glad we made it.
Top or bottom rudder just selects the direction you're going to spin. Rudder controls yaw; "roll" is a byproduct of extreme yaw.
It's tough to parse what you're saying here. If your point is that both top and bottom rudder is dangerous this is incorrect, it's extremely difficult to get in a spin from a slip. In my Decathlon I actually can't get it to spin while slipping. A skid will do it instantly, obviously.
If your point is: stalling is bad when you're that close to the ground no matter what, no argument here.
I guess I am used to flying gliders where your allways on the rudders keeping the string straight (ball) coordinated and used to constant 360 degree turns to stay in rough air thermals at low speeds. Gliders long wings create lots of adverse yaw allways needing rudder to stay coordinated. Speed easier to judge base on wind noise, angle of attack, control mushiness and last is airspeed indicator.
The risk of "top" rudder in a turn is the inside lower wing is physically flying slower, is 1st to stall, especially true in long winged gliders.
Phew.....edge of my seat....
Fantastic video Jason 🙏🏻
My approach to Sun N Fun this year was “fun” as well. 😁
Did you give a talk at the AOPA at Oshkosh? I seem to remember you from somewhere!
Yes I gave a talk at the AOPA Pavillion on Thursday
@@TheFinerPoints Good to know I haven't gone crazy. Great talk and very nice video. Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic video!
Can safely say I’ve got a ways to go until I’m ready for this.
Yeah take it slow. It’s a lot, I’m not gonna lie. It’s a great goal but it’s not easy
I had butterfliles. I would be the passenger screaming we are going down lol.
great job
Great video....
Wow, that looks stressful! Thanks for sharing!
Outstanding.
You kind of eluded to your "got to get there itis" but a bit of your bobble may have been attributed to fatigue. You had already flown for many hours from the bay area so one night sleep may not have been enough to recover from that.
That’s a great point. I think you’re right.
The Finer Points Would a rule of “no rudder in the circuit until lined up on final” make sense, for landing, of course? I fly a tailwheel Glasair Sportsman.
Let's practice that recovery up in San Juan Isles. If I ever get in that position I want to make sure I keep it out of the dirt. Cheers-Ren
I am not a pilot. But I was able to follow your description of the various dynamics and factors you were juggling.
Does the Notam say what you should do if the guy in front of you is too slow, as in this case? For example, can you get on the radio and say "speed up"?
My brother and I flew our family 337 in and had the same discussion about what constituted a heavy single. Why not just publish a max weight instead of this heavy single/twin verbiage?
Is there any interest in the GA community in "google glass" type technology? Seems like we have the capability now to make really light glasses which could have an HUD info display that seems like it would help with the whole "eyes outside" thing.