My keyboard journey
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 лип 2024
- 0:00 - Intro
0:13 - Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard
2:45 - GMMK Pro 75
5:33 - ZSA Moonlander
6:44 - Home-row mods
9:13 - Corne (choc v3)
12:03 - Real-world typing on the Corne
13:23 - Closing
Links:
- Corne choc v3: github.com/Adam13531/crkbd/tr....
- Bill of materials (BOM): github.com/Adam13531/crkbd/tr...
- My QMK configuration: github.com/Adam13531/qmk_firm...
- Discord: / discord
I didn't mention this in the video, but the soldering kit I got was some cheap-o "best seller" from Amazon (~$20). You don't need professional-grade tools to make this keyboard (I didn't even ruin any LEDs or diodes!).
(also, here is a blooper highlight for you: • Bloops )
Unlisted videos I posted as responses to comments:
- Overview of one-shot mods: • Overview of one-shot mods
- Response to Kekos with a bit more depth on some topics: • Kekos - Ігри
Great video! Love to see the journey!
0:33 I believe the one on the left is called "staggered rows", on the right is "staggered columns". Ortholinear is when the keys are arranged in a grid and every key is aligned horizontally and vertically with the other keys
Yeah, I had gotten the terminology wrong on that. A long, long time ago, UA-cam allowed you to add arbitrary annotations to a video. I'd pop one of those in if I could, but every other way I can think to correct that mistake would either be less visible or a lot of effort. :(
Very well explained, thanks for putting this together!
man, I gotta give immense kudos to your amazing resourcefulness, you're willing to do whatever it takes to get your stuff done, even remodelling a keyboard's pcb so you can get it to your liking, that's weirdly inspiring to watch if it makes sense
Thank you! I feel like keyboards turned into my "COVID hobby", and ever since making the Corne, the only thing I've really done is continue to tweak my keymap. I do want to make a wireless Corne at some point in the future though...!
If you're interested in any keyboard stuff though, I say to give it a shot and build your ideal board. There are so many helpful people and communities online that almost any obstacle can be overcome (some may cost some money though, which is why I still don't have a case for my Corne 👀).
@@Adam13531this video is Q U A L I T Y. The way you explained everything, the examples you gave, the way you clearly illustrated how effective this kind of keyboard can be, even for a PROGRAMMER, is just amazing. Also no stupid intro or outro. You did keyboards and UA-cam perfectly. Massive kudos. I'm not a programmer but I love the 40% form factor and have been thinking of trying an ergo split for some time. This sealed the deal, I'm definitely getting a Corne.
Thanks for the video, been struggling with pinky strain for some time. A simple thing like remapping ctrl to caps solved it, but now that I see what you have been up to I think I need to also step up my game. ❤️
Is your strain completely gone now? If so, it may not be worth it to completely change your keyboard/layout. If not, I suggest buying an inexpensive keyboard that supports custom firmware so that you can try reducing your hand and finger movement even more.
Thank you for this video! It's amazing how fast and proficient you are on this tiny layout! Especially with coding!
Thank you for watching! It does take time getting accustomed to a new layout, but I still love having every key one "unit" away at any moment.
I suggest trying one of these keyboards out if you can get your hands on one!
Nice video presentation, thanks for it!
Awesome video and summary. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Thank YOU for watching! 🙏
Thanks for the BOM! It's very helpful
You're welcome! Are you going to build a Corne? I'd love to know how it turns out. 😁
Super video!
I am switching to a Moonlander using Colemak. It's been two weeks and I'm still struggling. But I am already moving towards less keys.
It is the start of a great journey!
Thanks again for the very "normal life" video. I am very impressed you did all this in just a year.
Thanks for watching! The struggle does get easier and more natural with time. You're essentially reprogramming your muscle memory.
The year I spent on this was during the pandemic, so I felt like I had more time than normal to invest. 👀 Glad I did it though since I would have been curious about all of this eventually anyway!
Loved this! I just got my corne and I'm about to start the journey, thank you Adam for the deep explanation
Hope you like your Corne, and thanks for watching! 🙏
Great video. I currently look for an ergonomic keyboard. Most people stick with the Moonlander. But I really like you went further with the Corne. I'll keep it in mind.
Thanks for watching! It all depends on what you like. Unfortunately, keyboards are expensive and take long enough to *really* try out that you can't just order five and pick the one you like best. That's why I recommend experimenting using what you currently have (if possible) or finding a friend or co-worker with an interesting keyboard.
Good luck in your own journey!
Great video! Thank you!
great video!
You can't tell me what to do! I'm absolutely liking this video, Adam.
:P
I tried, at least!
(Thanks for watching 😁)
Thank you for this video.
Very cool! And nice to see you again!
Yooooo, how have you been? I don't know if you saw on Discord, but if you're free on time.is/0800AM_18_Dec_2021_in_Seattle, you should drop by the stream (streams are super rare these days, otherwise I wouldn't be advertising this one at you).
@@Adam13531 I'm doing great thanks! Yeah I'll put it in my calendar and try to be there.. Looking forward to it!
Great video! I built a, sofle recently, really enjoy it but I think I can go smaller so Im building a corne next.
That's very cool man, thanks for sharing so much information, I just bought my first Corne keyboard and I'm excited to try it out. =]
Hope you like it! At the very least, it'll inform you about what you want from your next keyboard.
@@Adam13531 This will actually be my third keyboard, first I got the Keychron k2 then I got the OLKB Planck and I love it so that made me think that the Corne might be my endgame keyboard. 😁
@@isaaceliape Ohhh, good choices. I'm still convinced that there's no such thing as "endgame" and that our wallets will just forever hate us as we keep discovering newer, cooler things. 💸
Really great video. It gave a lot of insiights other videos dont give
Thank you for this video,
Great video. Thanks (specially for the link to your layout 🤣)
Glad you liked it! I've been modifying my layout here and there since posting this video. Just yesterday, I finally added ctrl+T to my NAV layer since I frequently want to copy text from one browser tab, open a new one, and paste it somewhere. I haven't pushed that modification yet since I may want to augment it after using it for a bit.
Hope it serves you well!
Thanks for sharing: I am just starting the journey with keyboards, but I see the advantage, even if I will return to the MSFT Natural, my favorit since 2 decades (OMG).
Nice video, thanks! :-)
really enjoyed this video. U have nice energy and made things look as real as it can be. I am really considering the home row usage for mods in the near future. I have a moonlander and a UHK v2 to exercise before going something more compact.
Thank you!
Since this video, I switched away from home-row mods to one-shot mods, which is like how phone keyboards work where pressing and letting go of the shift key will capitalize the next character pressed regardless of how much time passes between the two keystrokes. I like it a lot more because I don't need to worry about holding a key down for long enough to change its normal function.
As a sort of compromise, I also added some combos for ctrl (or CMD when I'm on macOS) so that I could still easily use some modifiers without changing layers.
Regardless, I highly suggest trying all sorts of things out to see how it affects your typing. It's quite fun!
@@Adam13531 upload a new video about this!
@@spitefol5504 Is there something in particular that you'd be interested in? I ask because I'm not sure if I have much to share beyond my last comment, but I'd be happy to type out the answers to any questions you have! I've been a bit too busy to consider making another video (or at least a *polished* one; I can always quickly record an unlisted video to reply to you if there's something you want to see).
Very interesting video.
I'm getting my Moonlander tomorrow. Simultaneously, I'm trying to learn Colemak DHm or whatever it is called.
As a pianist that also work too much in front of the computer, I find it very important to take care of my posture and hands. It is fascinating to see UA-camrs that goes far on this subject. To me, the killer is the mouse. I try to avoid using it at all cost. I gave it to the cat and I'm using VIMac for the most part for everything that is related to scrolling and clicking. In combination with Loupdeck for video-editing it does the job very well. Also, using a tablet feels more ergonomic rather than using the mouse.
moonlander is gay
Cool! I've removed keys from my mechanical tenkeyless non QMK keyboard to mimic the 36 split layout and then used kmonad to configure layers, home row mods and everything else. Now I'm waiting for my PCBs!
Nice! Which PCBs did you end up getting? I think you'll have a much, much better idea of whether you'll like them already given the work you've put in, so good job!
Great video!
I went from a standard 65% to a planck-style board and that was too big of a jump for me, so I went back to standard layouts. I do think that I will eventually go back to ortholinear because that did wonders for my body and was very fun but the time isn't now.
Thanks for watching! I know what you mean about the jump being big. Something that can ease you into it is to use your smaller keyboard only when you're going to be typing mostly *words* (since the alphabetical keys are usually laid out the same). E.g. if you're writing emails or notes, maybe try your Planck-style board. Occasionally, there'll be a number or a keyboard shortcut that you want to use, and you can either learn it then or keep your other keyboard plugged in simultaneously to act as training wheels.
Love the video. Especially the fact that you went over every keyboard well. I've been sitting on the ergodox for now and was debating moving to the moonlander. In relation to homerow mods. Oryx has this cool feature where if you hold the key slightly longer (i set it to 150 ms) it auto shifts the key. Did you ever look into things like the kenisis advantage? I was wondering how you felt about the concavity of something like that or even something like the Dactyl Manuform since that would also be pretty DIY. Glad to see you again Adam! :)
Hey Vybhav!
- I think the Moonlander is a great improvement over the ErgoDox (especially if you have an earlier version without per-key LEDs). With that said, I thought I would enjoy the Moonlander much more than I did. I found the red thumb keys weren't the easiest to hit, and I dislike the sound of keyboard overall compared to the other mechanical keyboards in this video.
- I gave auto-shift a shot through QMK. I decided that it wasn't for me because I felt like I was pausing enough due to home-row mods that I didn't want to also pause when typing "!" or "$".
- The Kinesis Advantage struck me as an ErgoDox in a different form factor, and since it has such a high price tag, I decided against trying it out.
- I haven't tried a Dactyl Manuform. I think most people who build it comment that it takes a lot of tries to get it *just right* for your own hands, and I also heard that the build itself takes a while. I'd love to try someone else's someday just to see what it's like though.
I've been using the Corne for almost three weeks now at this point. I want to give it at least another month, and if I still like it, I may start looking into small upgrades like a case, tenting options, or something that looks a little more "complete" than just two PCBs sitting on anti-slip pads.
Good to see you again, and I'm glad you liked the video!
Great video! I have sofle like keyboard right now and thinking about something like corne. Low profile seems to me more ergonomic than normal keyboard without wrist rest
I actually tried to solder ferris sweep myself, but I could not solder it as I wanted with 0 skills, so I had to cancel that project. In your video I see that your corne is not really "solid" (shaking as you typing). I wish there was something like 34/36 keyboard but with high quality case and without TRRS. Piantor seems to be the solution, but I don't like uncovered controller. Maybe if I could create a good case for it...
Great video. The corne mapping was a bit difficult to follow. A second slower video on the subject is much welcomed 😂
I ended up making another video recently (on my "main" channel): ua-cam.com/video/rfJUuSfouM4/v-deo.html
That may do a better job at explaining the pros and cons of the Corne itself.
Thanks for watching! 🙏
Thanks will watch asap. I'm playing with symbols ({\*[] that are all placed badly on my layout. Did a bit of homerow mod but need a video to teach me how to tune timing.. and its a new world with one shot layer keys etc 🎉
I am on a similar journey. On the Moonlander phase currently, but am looking into the Corne for my next step.
Nice! How long did you use the Moonlander for, and what'd you think of it?
@@Adam13531I’ve been using the Moonlander for almost a year now. It’s been great as my first programmable board so I’ve enjoyed playing around with layouts, symbol layers etc.
Great video man. I had a somewhat similar journey and ended up on a ferris sweep.
Thank you! Regarding the Sweep: how are you liking it? Do you ever feel like you want more keys?
@@Adam13531 ive only had it for a few months, but as of now no. Once i learned my layouts it feels very cozy not having to reach far for anything.
@@flip4119 what'd you end up settling on for a shift key? Is it a dedicated one or a dual-function key?
@@Adam13531 that was definitely the hardest one but i ended up with one of the right thumb buttons. left buttons are super and space. right is shift and switch to symbols layer. with setting certain layers to hold and others to switch from a tap theres a lot of layouts you could do.
@@flip4119 thanks for sharing your setup. I've experimented a lot, but my main issue is that I don't like dual-function keys since I have to hold them extra long to make sure they actuate. I was debating on making a keyboard with maybe just two extra keys or possibly moving an uncommon letter like "Q" onto a layer.
What an interesting journey! I'd love to get myself an ergonomic keyboard one day. Thanks for the resources and hope you don't use default FL drums ;)
Hey, TY! If you're interested in ergonomic keyboards, I'd suggest looking sooner rather than later so that you can start reaping the benefits. Plus, this time of year is filled with sales/deals. And if that's not good enough, you can earn some money selling beats with non-default drums (but who would want to buy those? 🤔).
I think this might be the video I give to friends who ask "what's the big deal about mechanical keyboards?" I'm currently at the "home row modifiers are amazing" phase with 60% split spacebar keyboards. Next month I'll be building my first 40% ortholinear.
I think it's important what you did to gradually go toward 40% rather than jumping all at once, that way it's not overwhelming. What's your next board going to be?
@@Adam13531 I jump directly @ ortho 40% ¿ that's matters ?
i put my modifier keys one row up, i don't use homerow mod, i dont like the delay with combo key, so i keep all alpha key clean of combo function
i'm allready looking a second ortho keyboard, maybe the foldKB (for he's big mod key in my case) by keebio...with a traball or a touchpad in the center
by the way, nice video Adam
@@tankafer3127 Hey, sorry for the delay in responding. I don't think there's an issue with jumping directly to a 40% board as long as you're not concerned about the cost. There *will* be a learning curve, but it really isn't too bad, especially not for regular typing (rather than coding).
Regarding home-row mods: whatever works for you is what you should use! People who prefer smaller keyboards usually do so because there's less finger travel while typing, and we all have different typing patterns, so it's worthwhile to tailor your layout to your situation.
Also, the FoldKB looks pretty cool, and it has two rotary encoders on it! I miss that from the GMMK Pro that I was using.
How dare you say you dont need subs or likes 😂 Will be looking forward to your next video!!
I was on the same exact GMMK PRO to Moonlander pipeline. I am now on a Keychrone Q11 but missing ortholinear while trying to learn Colemak DH. Perhaps once my colemak is better I will try something like this. Thanks for the great video!
Did you also only stay on the Moonlander for a short amount of time?
I've never tried a Keychron keyboard, but they have a lot of different varieties and look pretty great. Colemak (or Workman) is on my list of things to learn eventually.
If you do end up wanting to try something like a Corne, I suggest taking out the Moonlander again and popping a bunch of keys off.
(Thanks for watching!)
@@Adam13531 I did only stick with the moonlander for 6 months or so. I still have it but swapping between it and a standard 75 was challenging because of it being columnar. The Q11 is staggered split and makes it easier for me to transition back and forth. That is a great idea on how I would try out corne! Thank you!
Do you use the index-finger for the c (in qwerty-layout) key and middle ring for zx? If not, that might just be the change which makes ortholinear less needed -- although I personally favor it myself. Downside is when you often need to switch to laptop or other standard keyboards. I now decided to stay with staggered for that reason.
@@nickgoogle4525 (I only just realized that you may have been asking Joel and not me, but I'm responding here anyway 😛)
Each half of the Corne has five columns and three thumb keys, so each column has a dedicated finger. From outside in: pinky, ring, middle, pointer, pointer. This way, your pointer fingers and thumbs are the only fingers that have to cover multiple columns.
So "C" is on my LH middle finger, "X" is on my LH ring finger, and "Y" is on my RH pointer finger.
@@Adam13531 Thanks, indeed the question was for Joel for a standard staggered keyboard. And I just have seen I accidently wrote xy instead of zx, that is because on a German keyboard z and x are swapped. ;-)
12:08 exactly that, but wireless would be my dream! And the sound is RIGHT up my alley! I love crisp, clean "ticks", I'm not a closeted woodchuck, that needs his keyboard to send a massive "THOCK!" through my whole desk for every key stroke... 😀 - Now I need to find out if you can build a wireless split with RGB, I don't mind a bigger battery, this would be 90% stationary use....
I'd love a wireless one too at this point! That, and a proper case; my LEDs stopped working at multiple different points likely due to the PCB flexing.
There's nothing that says you can't get RGB on a wireless keyboard, but LEDs are apparently always consuming some amount of power even when they're off. I know you said you wouldn't mind a bigger battery, but there's also the soldering to consider for so many extra LEDs.
It used to be that you could wait for a group buy for a keyboard called "Corne-ish Zen", but I _think_ the creator stopped doing those. That would be pretty close to what you want (although it doesn't have LEDs).
@@Adam13531 You're a gem, thanks so much! Those couple of lines told me like 4 things that help me massively!
I found the Discord just now, so I'll improve quickly!
I have a soldering iron, but no hot air. On the other hand I DO have a resin printer and Fusion 360! So I might be able to help with the case! But honestly? Personally, for an item as central to your life as a keyboard is to a programmer? I think I'll design it myself and then get a cloud printer to print it in Titanium or something more flashy than "Ghetto-Resin"... 😀
Ah! For the group buys, where do they originate from? The Discord? - Thanks again, you've given me tons of breadcrumbs to follow! PS: Your Layer design is pure genius, that alone is basically what inspired me to get/make one of these! Watching you type makes me feel like a Neanderthal in comparison, And I've typed on mech keyboards for over 25 years... ^^
@@mcbrite
> I found the Discord just now, so I'll improve quickly!
Do you mean the one for the Corne-ish Zen? If so, yes, that's where you'd find out about group buys for that specific keyboard. A good source for keyboard-related group buys in general is www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/ (there's flair for "Group Buy", but the titles of those posts should also contain "[GB]").
You can solve your soldering problems by heading down to the Hot Air Emporium on 3rd street, but it may give you a wallet problem instead.
> Your Layer design is pure genius
It's not _entirely_ my design. I came up with the navigation layer on the GMMK Pro, then I found out about the Miryoku layout (github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku) for the Moonlander. However, I'd already baked my own navigation layer into my head, so I tried to take the concepts I liked from Miryoku. Since then, I've been sort of "hyper-specializing" my layers for my own workflow. E.g. I open new tabs in my browser and then frequently go to my homepage (ua-cam.com/video/6u4w4HLixP0/v-deo.html, as long as I'm linking things 😉), so I added "new tab" and "go to homepage" shortcuts on my navigation layer.
You can see some of those optimizations here: github.com/Adam13531/qmk_firmware/blob/a7555a2bc15cf28f20b3890fb74096b37e649a85/keyboards/crkbd/keymaps/adam/keymap.c#L578-L787
Anyway, I'll stop spewing links at you. I hope you're having fun on your own keyboard journey even if it's already been going on for 25+ years! 😁
Hi Adam, some news about you're experience with this keyboard. I really love the ideia of this keyboard and i want to try too. Thank's for sharing this.
Hi, Anderson! I'm not sure if you're asking for news, so I'll share how I've felt about the Corne just in case. 😀
I still use it daily, and I've gotten more and more comfortable with it. The features I've been enjoying the most from QMK are:
- Combos: I use D+F and J+K for ctrl on Windows or cmd on macOS. I also use combos for hyphens and semicolons.
- One-shot mods: these let me press and release a modifier key like ctrl, wait any length of time, then press another key in order to send ctrl+other_key.
I stopped using home-row mods because I was sick of having to hold a key for a certain length of time in order for it to do something different. Still, it's worth experimenting to figure out what you like.
The only thing I *don't* use the Corne for is gaming since I prefer having a larger keyboard for that.
@@Adam13531 Yeah, that's exactly what i wanted to ask, thanks again.
I've been to wanting to try a split keyboard to see if it's more comfortable but so far the options are either buy something insanely expensive but it's ready to use out of the box or buy parts and build it from scratch. I wish there was more readily available options at an less expensive price range.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, there just isn't enough demand for a company to keep a split keyboard in stock at a reasonable price.
I suggest seeing if there's some kind of keyboard meet-up in your area, or ask any friends or co-workers if they have a split keyboard that you can test out. Alternatively, you can look at second-hand markets like reddit.com/r/mechmarket. They'll at least be cheaper there!
I had a similar journey. I started with an ergonomic Microsoft keyboard like yours, but an older version and I use now a Redox keyboard.
But I started using a different keyboard layout called Neo2 on the MS keyboard and after that I build my own diy split matrix keyboard. I skipped the GMMK.
Now I use a layout called PUQ (it is an optimized Layout for matrix keyboards and a mix of German and English language.
I want to build or buy a 34 key keyboard next.
And btw: components can be much smaller than this diode. It is my daily job to repair them 😂
I highly recommend to throw qwerty away as far as you can and learn an ergonomic layout like Workman or Colemak
Keyboards are quite the rabbit hole, aren't they? 😛
I've been wondering what the sweet spot is for number of keys. For me, I can't imagine anything less than 34 would be comfortable, and I'm pretty happy with 36 (but a single encoder would be really nice for media controls).
I wonder how hard switching away from QWERTY would be. How long did it take you? I do want to give it a shot at some point in my life, but I've spent so long getting comfortable again with my current layout that it would have to be a project for another year.
@@Adam13531I think it varies from individual to individual. You have to relearn not only the layout, but also the memory muscles for key combinations and the software you use. And it depends on your training discipline. For me, it took much longer because I'm older than you and had to learn two languages.
Long story short: it takes time. But the benefit is a much more convenient typing experience.
"As far this video goes don't like don't subscribe...."
Well I liked it. So there.
I had a similar journey full-size -> 60% -> ergodox EZ -> low profile Kyria.
I also use homerow mods, and nav under the home row. I also use Workman (keyboard layout), which is so comfortable compared to qwerty. Especially on a small keyboard. My next board will be a 3d printed skeletyl most likely. nice video!
I want to try a layout like Workman at some point; I feel like my fingers would almost never have to move! I did end up switching away from homerow mods since making this video though. I felt that they slowed me down, so I switched to one-shot modifiers (with combos for ctrl/cmd).
The Skeletyl looks neat. I have this idea in my head that any Dactyl-like keyboard would take multiple revisions to get *just right* for one's hands. I'd be interested to know if that ends up being the case for you.
Have fun on your own keyboard journey, and thanks for watching! 😁
@@Adam13531 Adam, this is super interesting. Could you explain how you use the one-shot mods (also with combos)? I do not understand how that works, because I would think that I need some extra "free" keys which I can use for the one-shot actions. If you do not mind that people might actually watch a video about this topic, that would be great! ;-)
@@nickgoogle4525 hey Nick, I recorded a response here: ua-cam.com/video/Bqeor8-wmCE/v-deo.html
Let me know if you have any other questions!
@@Adam13531 Wow, that is great Adam. Thank you very much for taking the time and putting in the effort to answer my question so detailed! :-D This is a really cool concept. I will see how I can use that in my layout I am creating and if I want to implement that in the keyboard firmware or if I find an option for Windows software. The latter I prefer, because then I can also use the exact same keymap and bindings on a laptop keyboard.
Much appreciated to help me/ us in this way! :-)
@@nickgoogle4525 glad to help! 😁 I _believe_ that you can use Sticky Keys in Windows to accomplish something similar. With that said, I generally try to optimize for the majority case, which for me is using my keyboard at my desk. When I'm on my work laptop, I just accept that I'm not going to type as optimally (it's actually _far_ less optimal because I also don't have two monitors, a mouse, etc.).
An awesome video as usual! Do you mind sharing how you did the code formatting of your layers in your keymap.c? Simply by inserting the whitespace by hand or is there some editor/tool magic involved?
Thank you! Yeah, for the layers themselves, I just manually inserted whitespace. There may be something out there to automatically format them, but I didn't find it was worth the effort once you've mostly memorized the layers.
the picture you used for the example of ortholinear at the beginning is just column staggered as opposed to row stagger (regular stagger). Ortholinear (“same lines”) is specifically an even grid, but from a keyboard categories standpoint, ortho and columnar stagger are often (reasonably) grouped together as “not row staggered”
Yeah, I had the terminology incorrect. 😢 I hope it doesn't end up confusing anyone new to the keyboard space.
@@Adam13531 I’m sure you’ll be okay! Once someone looks into it from this point, they’ll probably realize anyway
Hey Adam!
Thanks for the great video (and the blooper)!
I wanted to ask: do you feel like you had to make a compromise or become comfortable with overall the typing speed being lower on the later keyboards in your journey (after getting through the learning curve phase)? To feel okay with the balance between typing speed and comfort/longevity/ergonomics?
I've always enjoyed ergonomic keyboards (especially the Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard and ErgoDox)...I've managed to get pretty efficient when using them, but I feel like there's still always a decent speed gap between ergonomics and traditional keyboard layouts. Thinking about that gap tends to make me more hesitant towards going even more ergonomic (even though ergonomics are important to me). I was curious if you had experienced that at all, and, if so, if there was anything that helped you push through those feelings.
It was also great seeing your stream the other day - excited that you'll be back in the future!
Hey Erik, I definitely did experience what you're talking about. For me, the slowdown largely comes from two things:
1. Dual-function keys (e.g. being able to tap "J" to type the letter and holding it to send shift). I still sometimes hold a key for too short a time and type something like "ji'm" instead of "I'm" or hold it for too long and type "EW" instead of "few". It's annoying, but I think the benefit may at least slightly outweigh the cost there since it feels magical to be able to invoke some multi-modifier shortcut without really moving your hand.
I mostly switch layers with my thumb keys, but they're also dual-function, so I hit similar issues (e.g. hitting backspace and "q" rather than typing a hyphen).
What I *might* end up doing is to try to cut down on the number of dual-function keys at least on my thumbs, but even then, I think my floor would be 10 keys instead of the current 12, so it may not make a huge difference.
2. "Stance-dancing": with 4 layers that I use frequently (letters, numbers, navigation, and symbols), I sometimes find myself hopping between them in frustrating ways. For example, suppose I wanted duplicated a line of text a few times that said "foo1", and I wanted to change them to say "foo2", "foo3", and "foo4". I have to switch between navigation and numbers, and thanks to both of those being dual-function keys, I need to wait for their "hold" durations, which is just slightly longer than I would want to wait.
To mitigate this, you can try to offload some work to your editor or operating system (e.g. in Vim, you could avoid the navigation layer by typing "jr2jr3jr4"). Alternatively, you could try to put keys in your layers based on scenarios you find yourself in. For example, I seem to type "1:1" a lot at work, so I put a colon on my number layer.
Conclusions:
1. Pain trumps all, so if you have pain and want to reduce movement, something ergonomic and programmable will always win.
2. If you *don't* have pain (like how I didn't), then trying a new keyboard/style is just another experiment to inform your ideal way of typing. Reducing hand movement probably means that I'm typing symbols and numbers more accurately now than I used to. Same thing with navigation. So maybe I end up keeping layers for that and ditching home-row mods for some other solution. It's been about a month and a half since I built the Corne, so it's still early-ish enough where I want to give it more of a shot.
Thanks for watching and for tuning into the stream! I'm obviously *also* excited, perhaps more than anyone. 😁
@@Adam13531Thanks a bunch for your perspective and experience, it helps a lot! I'm excited to (hopefully) be less of a lurker the next time around. Thanks again!
Hi :) Great video. I bought the ferris sweep which looks a lot like your corne, but I'm having trouble understanding how to configure the keyboard. It seems like it's easiest if you have a windows install, which I do not have and then there's no way to setup letters like æøå, which makes it even more annoying to work with and I need to configure each OS to be able to write these letters.
These two minor problems means that the keyboard has been on my desk for months and I still dont know if I'll ever start using it, but it looks and feels amazing.
Hey, thanks for watching!
> It seems like it's easiest if you have a windows install
If you're using QMK, then it should work on Windows, macOS, and Linux: docs.qmk.fm/#/newbs_getting_started?id=set-up-your-environment
> there's no way to setup letters like æøå
I know this is possible, but I haven't done it in QMK myself. I suggest checking out this reddit thread: www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rr9zl1/3x5_keyboards_for_nonenglish_languages_esp/
What I do is use text expansions at the OS level-not at the keyboard level-but I pretty much only type English, so that's sufficient for me. For example, when I type "'e/", it gets converted into "é". Something like espanso.org/ can do that for you on any OS, but I think it will be more unwieldy than implementing something at the keyboard layer if you need accented characters often.
I hope that helps a bit, but if not, I suggest joining the QMK Discord and asking about your issues there: discord.com/invite/qmk-440868230475677696 Best of luck using your cool keyboard! ⌨
@@Adam13531 wow! Thank you for that interesting comment :) I'll give it a try.
I'm currently on a very similar journey. I am typing on a 36 key modded moonlander. and super tempted to get one of those boards you ended up with... but I am still only three days in to having the modefied home row and I am typing like a toddler, so I haven't experienced the benefits fully yet. Fun stuff to tinker with though :)
It _is_ fun! And as tempting as it is to switch now, I would wait until you're at least a typing teenager, that way you know more about what you want out of the next keyboard (take it from someone who is now dragging their feet selling a Moonlander...). I myself am still happy with 36 keys, but a wireless version would be nice.
@@Adam13531Does the corne somehow not support the nice!nano?
@@chri-k they should be supported, yeah. I don't know whether QMK works on them, but ZMK should.
@@Adam13531 Then what's the problem?
( other than their price )
also wow. That's a quick response.
@@Adam13531 Quick response.
Then what's the problem with making it wireless?
The LED power consumption is too high?
( my comment got deleted once )
I think I might be sold lol!
Wish I could find a keyboard with an ortholinear layout and traditional modifiers and size. I’m not quite ready for a bunch of layers, and I like having keys like ‘ and \ on the main layer along with arrow keys (edit: ideally split and with a 1.25-1.5u modifier key under the C)
For anyone feeling similarly, the Keebio FoldKB is the only one I could find that has both VIA support and is actually available, although as a 60% it doesn’t have traditional arrow keys or a function row. Amazing company though
I swear I've seen keyboards like what you're describing in the various keyboard subreddits, but it's hard to find those posts now. These are soooort of close:
- www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/qgayzg/the_railroad_keyboard_now_open_source/
- www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/mxr8jw/ic_fluxlab_zt60_a_premium_60_ortho/
- www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/lupxtp/i_designed_a_quirky_ortho/
Of course, you can always design and build one from scratch! 😛
@@Adam13531 oh wow thanks! I really like the railroad, but getting it built might take some effort
I would like split if possible, I guess I didn’t say that, but that’s making it harder too. The railroad has space though. The other 2 are a similar design to the spacey , which is cool
Thank you for finding those!
I edited the comment in case, but I really like having a 1.25-1.5u modifier under the C key for use as the ctrl/cmd. That’s why I’m looking at splits because they have that sometimes. Super difficult to find this layout for some reason even though the modifier placement makes much more sense than a pinky corner one, but I’ve been having issues finding that without using a keyboard that’s column staggered ergo-style like the moonlander, and those keyboards don’t have traditional modifier/enter/backspace layouts
I will look into designing one at some point, but I just don’t have the time or energy for such a project right now
"don't like, don't subscribe, I don't care" he says!
I'll show him!
currently using a moonlander... but thinking about soldering my first corne...
I think you should go for it! If you're unsure about the Corne itself, pop some keys off the Moonlander and give the Corne layout a spin for a couple of weeks.
I have Corne with LED, and custom slim case for 1400mAh battery. Using it with Nice!Nanos2 so its wireless. Its great keyboard
Are you using ZMK with it? I'm only tried QMK, which from what I understand doesn't work well with wireless setups (not that I have the hardware for it anyway though 👀). Either way, the Corne is a great keyboard!
@@Adam13531 hey. yes ZMK, if you wnna go wireless you need to go with ZMK, and also nice!nanos2 + ZMK is best option for it. I also have those magnetic usbc cable for charging so its easy to charge every 3-4 days with my setup. I really dont like wires.
5:35 it is not an ortholinear keyboard, staggered can also mean "column staggered" or columnar as moonlander is.
Thanks for pointing this out; I only realized the terms were more nuanced after recording the video (of course!). 🤦♂️
Had a similar Microsoft split years ago, whacked that middle occasionally because of slme 'illegal' moves😂
My moonlander is due to arrive today, lets see how I fare with that.
Hey Adam. Great video. I've been on a similar journey myself and recently I've dragged my partner into it too. We were watching your video and you said something about a mouse with your Corne. Are you talking about mouse keys? Or something else?
Hey, glad you enjoyed it! I was indeed talking about mouse keys (the QMK feature). I don't think I ever really use them anymore. I had tried them for a bit, but I don't actually mind switching to my mouse from time to time, especially since my mouse is essentially a keyboard with its 12 side buttons.
Still loving the Corne after all this time. I want to build a wireless one at some point so that I don't have a cable tugging it away from me.
What keyboards have you used, and what are you on now?
EDIT (months later, lol): fixed a typo.
Hi adam. I was wondering, if it would make sense to reshoot this video for your new channel. I think multiple people would be interested and I think this could also be a boost, because keyboard content will be watched. Maybe a followup what you've learned in the last 2 years about this keyboard. And also up and downsides against other keyboards :)
Funnily enough, I'm literally writing the content for it right now, and I plan on uploading it today (assuming I can get it done in time!). I'm excited to see what people think! 😁
EDIT: for those wondering, the new video is here: ua-cam.com/video/rfJUuSfouM4/v-deo.html
Set up a Moonlander today. If you have problems flashing, remove Thrustmaster drivers if you have them.
Thanks for the video. Could you elaborate a bit on how you designed a PCB and sent that in for manufacture (including links and pricing)?
To elaborate, I'm considering a total custom gaming keypad with 2x2 keys and 2u keys here and there in an ortholinear layout that works for me.
Thanks for watching!
> Could you elaborate a bit on how you designed a PCB and sent that in for manufacture (including links and pricing)?
Sure! I started with the choc Corne v3 from daysgobye, so it wasn't like I was starting from scratch. As for links and pricing, I think I have everything you're looking for in two places:
- github.com/Adam13531/crkbd/blob/choc-v3/README.md#adams-updates
- notes.adamlearns.com/ → Programs → "KiCad (and electrical engineering stuff)"
That second link mentions that the total manufacturing price for just the 5 PCBs was $30.52 (minus a $6 coupon, so $24.52). There used to be a service that would let you get totally free PCBs as long as they were small enough (github.com/joric/jorne/wiki/Free-PCBs), but that was apparently discontinued. It would've been perfect for your 2x2 board. 😢
I'm not an expert by any means, so beyond the notes I've taken, I probably couldn't provide too much more information on how to approach a project like this. However, a buddy of mine ended up making a keyboard (both hardware and software) from scratch and recorded the entire process here: ua-cam.com/video/aBYIM-Crp7Q/v-deo.html You may find that useful.
Hope that helps!
@@Adam13531 Awesome, thx for the response!!
That mouse movement looked so smooth using your corne! Did you alter the mouse sensitivity default? Mine seems to zoom around and accelerate really fast.
Hey, apologies for the delayed response; I think I borked my notification settings at some point. 😳
My settings for the mouse movement are here: github.com/Adam13531/qmk_firmware/blob/1e3f45f3d62addb60a3d4643368963d37bb9ad46/keyboards/crkbd/keymaps/adam/config.h#L105-L114
It's _pretty_ good, but I haven't really tweaked them since I wrote that in ~2 years ago.
Nice video, I had a similar journey! The only problem is that once you know you can create your own keymap, you end up falling in a rabbit hole, it is an endless story. Are you finally fully satisfied with your keymap?
I certainly agree about the rabbit hole! I've still been using the Corne since this video, and while I'm happy enough with the layout I have on it, I still think I want a few extra keys. I'm planning to use the Moonlander as a testbed for a 42-key Corne, that way I can have modifiers on the base layer. Without that, I feel like I slow down every time I want to press ctrl or shift.
Which keyboard are you using now?
Qmk can be replaced by software like kmonad or kanata
Thanks! Really great video help me a lot! I try to choose my first mechanical keyboard (after using Microsoft Natural 4000) between Arisu (Fancy Alice 66, modified Alice with arrows) and Split 75% VEA. How do you thing which is best for ergonomics?
Glad you liked the video! I haven't really used either of the keyboards you're considering, so it's hard for me to say for sure. Do you have any particular pains or discomfort using your Microsoft keyboard? Because the Alice is closer in shape to that keyboard than a VE.A would be.
The Alice also doesn't have nearly as many keys as you may be used to, which I actually think is a *benefit* for ergonomics, but it would lead to a higher learning curve.
@@Adam13531 Thanks for your answer. I make some research about existing for buy keyboards and also about pain and causes of it. 1) I go for split -> Alice out; 2) To columnar layout -> vea out. I consider lily 58 pro, nyquist 5x12 (sp50), ergodone. I ordered ergodone. As it gives maximum ergonomic advantages for my hands. Because health the most important, more than pretty led colors, or aluminum case. In ortholinear I still will feel pressure to ensure all my fingers on home row. I also want to use thumb more with keys. Qmk essential for me in linux. And with my Norman layout ergodox will be perfect. I also will do some modifications with it. Also brought resign wrist rest.
@@simon215a I hadn't heard of the Ergodone, but it looks like an ErgoDox, which I'd used for a while. It should be a great keyboard! The one thing I'd advise against is trying to use the innermost thumb keys; they're a bit awkward to hit for anything common. The big thumb keys should be quite comfortable though. 👍
Suffering from inner side arm pain, I already got a vertical mouse and I'm looking for an ergo keyboard. Which one would you recommend? thinking of a Kinesis Advantage 2 for the concave design (Idk if it will work well, I have small hands) or a Moonlander
I haven't used a Kinesis keyboard, but I imagine you'll have similar problems on both, which is that not all of the thumb keys will be easily accessible. That's not *really* a problem though as long as you can consistently hit at least two of them without pain/stretching. The Advantage 2 is probably better for small hands given exactly how it's curved.
If you can, see if someone local (perhaps in the keyboard community, at work/school, or just in your friend group) has one of those keyboards for you to try out. They're both so expensive that you probably wouldn't want to invest in them if it turns out you don't like them!
Jumping directly from a 60% staggered keyboard to a Corne. Hopefully I don't go insane during the transition
As long as you're expecting your productivity to take a hit for 1-2 weeks, you should be able to keep your sanity! 🤞 Hope you enjoy the Corne!
What was your thought process with creating each layer? I’m kinda stuck on the mapping part because of the endless ways to put it.
I took a lot of inspiration from the Miryoku layout: github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku/tree/master/docs/reference#general-principles
In general though, one's layout on a keyboard like this is best when personalized. For example, if you're a programmer, you'll potentially want a different layout for your most commonly used language from someone who uses a different language. More concretely, I've found that I type Markdown links frequently enough where I wanted a paste function to be on the same layer as my brackets and parentheses. I also frequently type "1:1", so I put a colon in my number layer and actually made it so that holding shift and pressing that key will turn it into a semicolon.
My full layout for the Corne is here if you're looking for some ideas: github.com/Adam13531/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/crkbd/keymaps/adam
Corne user here, but MX version. How are you finding your choc switches?? Which ones did you get??
Hiya! I'm using Kailh's red crystal switches (the whole BOM is here: github.com/Adam13531/crkbd/tree/choc-v3#corne-keyboard). I like choc switches so far. I tend to really hammer the keys with a lot of force, so the acoustics of the Moonlander ended up sounding hollow to me. I like the more muted sound of the chocs, and I like the low travel distance.
All in all though, it's just like deciding between linear, tactile, and clicky switches in that everyone has their own preference, and it's almost impossible to tell what yours will be until you try them out for long enough!
I'm actually faster on my corne than my moonlander. How do you find the moonlander spacing? To me it feels like the keys are too far apart. Will give your corne layout a shot.
I still haven't used the Moonlander since our last little chat here, but I do remember feeling like everything was too far away. I think every keyboard will feel that way once you've used something very minimal though (the trade-off being that you press more keys to do the same actions).
I still have a few more tiny layout optimizations I want to do, then I may try a keyboard with just a few more keys; a few dedicated modifier keys would be nice.
waaaait, if i recall correctly wasnt your starting keyboard a even bulkier ergonomic one?
Lol this made me laugh because technically, the Microsoft keyboard I started with was actually a slightly different model: the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (what a name!). I *think* they're probably close to the same size, but the 4000 looks less sleek. Either way, it's amazing that you remember it being different! 👏
I'm not at my computer now or I could try to find the first streams I did with a keyboard camera. 😥
Yeah I used to watch your streams pretty religously back in the day haha. Now that I think about it, didn’t you also happen to own an Ergodox? What happened to that one?
@@TheKittko I did own an ErgoDox! I never bothered learning the intricacies of setting it up, so I just used their Oryx configuration software and didn't like the layout I had. I used it for gaming for a while, then eventually sold it. Back then, I thought "I need dedicated keys for practically everything", so it took a long/slow mental shift to be able to eventually be comfortable with the Corne.
P.S. the streams will be coming back in a little over a year (late 2023, early 2024); not sure if you heard the news from me already through Twitch or Discord.
How long did it take you to get proficient with the Corne? You are flying with that thing. I have a KBDFans D65 which i love, but have a MoonLander and Corne on the way. So your only reason for leaving the moon lander was because the keys you were using? Seems like you could setup the moonlander like you have the Corne. So do you even use your moonlander anymore?
Hiya, and thanks for watching!
RE: proficiency - I apparently started with home-row mods on the Moonlander on 9/19/21, then I got my Corne on 11/10/21. On 1/1/22, I have a journal entry saying "I've still been customizing things. Home-row mods are *mostly* good, but they still slow me down, especially for something like italicizing the word "mostly" just there. Dual-function keys are generally an annoyance for me because I have to slow down, and I don't like slowing down". So the total time spent getting truly proficient was probably about two months or three months. The time to get my English typing speed back to normal was less than a week, but that's because I didn't change layouts from QWERTY.
RE: your keyboards - wow, you're going to have a lot of fun in the coming weeks! 😁
RE: Moonlander - the Moonlander just never clicked with me. I still have it, but I haven't used it in months. I have several minor gripes:
- I don't like the acoustics as much as the other mechanical keyboards in this video. It sounds kind of hollow.
- Not all of the thumb keys are easy to press. The farthest one is a bit of a reach, and I never got used to the red ones.
- The tenting stands need to be in juuuust the right position to prevent wobbling.
- It has too many keys (I did say they were *minor* gripes!).
Since this video, I've switched from home-row mods to one-shot mods, meaning I enter a layer to press a modifier like ctrl, then ctrl would be enabled until I press something like "C", at which point it sends ctrl+C to the OS and "cancels" the ctrl. As a result, capitalizing letters is kind of obnoxious since I don't have a dedicated shift key. That makes me want to try a 6-column Corne (or even a 5.33-column one, sort of like a smaller Jorne). The Moonlander would be a good test bed for those changes, so I may give it another shot.
@@Adam13531 thanks for the response. I’ll try both out and see which one sticks. May throw some case foam if the moon lander is too hollow.
Don't tell me what to do! I'm going to subscribe
Well then this command is going to throw you for a loop:
STAY SUBSCRIBED TO ME.
😈
What keycaps are on your corne?
Hey, I've got the bill of materials here: github.com/Adam13531/crkbd/blob/choc-v3/README.md
They're Kailh low-profile keycaps that I got from AliExpress:
- 1u: www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832840483566.html
- 1.5u: www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832838407328.html
I just wanted something sort of generic since it was hard to find "cool" ones for cheap.
Why does nobody on UA-cam "travel" from these perversions to something at least remotely resembling a normal keyboard? 🤔
I'm pretty sure this is rhetorical, but I want to answer it anyway. 😛
- These keyboards are uncommon and expensive, so to _start_ on one and then decide you don't like it is rare.
- Because of the money/time commitment, people usually do research before buying one, which acts as another early filter.
- It _does_ happen that people don't end up liking small/split keyboards, but then the reasons are usually obvious enough to only warrant a small reddit post or something: "I couldn't get used to it", "I feel more efficient with more keys", etc.
@@Adam13531
Thanks for the answer anyway ^_^
How long did it take to get used to the last one (counting from the first one, like "a week from ① to ② plus two weeks from ② to ③ plus...")?
@@OmarLivesUnderSpace if I'm understanding you correctly:
- The GMMK Pro had almost no adjustment since it's a "normal" keyboard. Once I added in a couple of layers, it probably still didn't take too long since I color-coded everything.
- The Moonlander without home-row mods was also pretty straightforward. Adding in home-row mods probably took ~2 weeks to get used to.
- The Corne was an extension of the Moonlander for me since I'd plucked some keys off in order to see what it would be like with the Corne.
Getting _fast_ at this stuff took at least a couple of months. On top of that, I was almost always evolving my keymap in some way (you can see my commit history here: github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/compare/master...Adam13531:qmk_firmware:master). Any time I would change my keymap, it would take a few days to incorporate the changes.
Feel free to shoot any other questions my way! You're one step closer to using one of these perversions. 😛
@@Adam13531
No, I'm too scared to read such stories 🙈 BTW, I'm using Logitech Ergo K860 and I'm tickled pink about it 🌸 Thanks for the answer anyway!
adam
eygs