I completely agree with the dont like don’t look argument. Your comfort isn’t anyone else’s responsibility, if something triggers you, separate yourself from the places it’s found. I had someone harass me on my writting tumblr because they thought my writting was too dark and triggering. Complaining about dark themes or things you don’t like existing is dumb. Blocking someone isn’t hard yet people always feel like they need another reason to dislike someone (like the drama with the eyes on TikTok)
I agree with you. I'm not the biggest fan of the whole "all controversial content needs to be censored" or the "you create [X/Y] content, so that must mean you're enjoying/glorifying/endoursing/fetishizing, etc. it" mindsets. Like you said, instead of being a solely black and white issue, it more often comes in various grey tones. Some criticism is valid - like when it crosses into legal territory - and some isn't. I personally am a BIG fan of trigger warnings. Even when they're just warning you about the seemingly slightest thing. It just shows that the creator really doesn't want anyone to be subjected to content that might make them uncomfortable. All of my artworks or fanfics that contain any sensitive topics - self harm, gore, s3xual themes, etc. - have trigger warnings, so people can leave if they feel they can't handle it. If they still decide to consume said content and are upset afterwards, I really don't think it's my fault. I for example am really uncomfortable with vore and inflation, but instead of harassing people who create such content, demanding their work gets censored or taken down, I just don't seek out that kind of content and leave those people be. It's as simple as that.
Back when I was a depressed teen I started self harming only because I saw it in a TV show. I didn't even know that was a thing. But I still don't blame the TV show. I blame my parents for not getting me help especially when they knew I was doing that. It was a cry for help. I also drew this kind of thing a few times to help me express my anguish. I'm an artist and I really dislike the push to sanitize people's creativity to protect others. It hurts to say but we truly are responsible for our own triggers. We don't deserve what happened to us but we have to life with it and take care of ourselves. If we are having addictions and not in a good mindset then we need to be careful of the media and social media we are on. You can block tags, you can avoid media and sites. We can not make our issues the world's responsibility. Expecting this is setting yourself up for a lot of failure because this is the reality of the world we live in. The world is not a safe place and we need to be ready to navigate it. Of course all content creators should take steps to give warnings when applicable, but I do think that too many place a lot of responsibility on the creator vs the self.
In my opinion is that in most cases, if there’s a trigger warning it’s 100% on you if you ignore it and see something that triggers you. People love to throw around therapy language willy nilly but conveniently ignore one of the first things you learn in therapy, your triggers are not your fault but they are your responsibility. You don’t get to go into other people’s spaces and get angry at someone who warned you that their art isn’t for you.
The problem with depicting self harm is seeing fresh cuts is extremely triggering. Personally I only see it as a problem when it’s used to be aesthetic or sexual since my scars have been grossly sexualized and making it an aesthetic quirk can encourage people to self harm and since it’s addictive it’s harmful.
yea like cutegore/gorecore often does show people gore/scars in a way that can be triggering and glorify physical abuse or sh. but simply having a character with scars just... there..? they're essentially saying that having scars is shameful.
I’m very sorry that your scars have been sexualised, that’s really awful. :( However, I don’t necessarily see the fact that something can be triggering as a problem. A lot of different things are triggering to a multitude of different people, and while I agree with you strongly that presenting self-harm as quirky and aesthetic is, in many ways harmful, I don’t think that it’s bad because it triggers people. As I said in the video, it’s up to people themselves to regulate what they see and filter out stuff that triggers them and not the artist’s responsibility to remove or change their hard work because it might be upsetting. To anyone and everyone reading this: if self-harm scars on characters triggers you, then you need to zoom away from my channel and my art at TOP SPEEDS, dude. Take care of yourself and your mental health. ❤️
TW: Talks about murder and r4p3 I draw a lot of horror art, and I have seen others who make their own horror characters criticized for drawing them with weapons covered in blood, people say that they are glorifying real serial killers just because some of their ocs have killed people, which I think is disgusting because they are not real people and aren't killing real people, however I do agree that glorifying characters who are r4p1sts is harmful because it justifies real rape, but it is okay to have r4p1st characters as long as they aren't depicted as the good guy. Just because you create a serial killer oc doesn't mean that you support killing people, idk if this comment makes sense but I hope that you understand
I had something like this happen to me recently. I'm almost 30 and struggled with SH in my teens and early twenty's alot of my ocs have some sort of mental health issues and i draw them alot in ways that doesn't hide that. I also live to draw spicy things. I uploaded two pieces of art on DA that I was really proud off, one had sexual themes the other was just nudity (all tagged appropriately). The one i got hate, even got reported for resulting in it taken down was just the nudity, the report claiming it was too sexual for the platform?!? .. these drawings where of the same character but only the one that was reported had the characters SH scars visible in the posing. So you can give a BJ but you cant stand alone with visible scars? ... FFS
your points make a lot of sense. this is a lighter topic, but for example, i get creeped out by mold. there is an artist that i follow that sometimes draws fungus inspired characters, hence draws mold. instead of leaving a hate comment, i took TWO SECONDS to just filter out the mold tag. its really not that hard. nice video
I want to create art , stories and content and stuff like that show ps my experiences and also that depict nudity, not necessarily porn but I’m getting shit from people around me who have no idea what those are like or what I’m talking about they just write it off as offensive content and either tell be I should have never done it or laugh at it like it’s satire( to an extent I understand the leather, some of the works I’ve been in and worked at are comedies, but a lot of those i am talking about here weren’t/aren’t)
I heavily agree with everything said in this video. A lot of artists use their work as a way to express their emotions and berating artists for drawing darker things (such as SH) can actually worsen the artist's mental health. Art is a coping mechanism for many people and being told that they're wrong for using a healthy coping mechanism can and will only make things worse. I find it really ironic how the people who do this claim it's to try and protect people from being trigger by it actually only end up worsening the mental health of those they claim to be doing this for
i completely agree with this. and ive seen this has occurred a lot when people talk about alfreds playhouse; it feels like theyre invalidating emily (and yes i know shes a neo notzee and i do not condone that.) and other SA victims for venting thru art about their experience. deeming it as “wrong” and “disgusting” feels very shameful towards victims, saying this as a victim myself. now, i dont think emily is a good person, no, not at all and i disagree heavily with her political ideals. but i still think the way people discuss about why the show is “bad” especially regarding the SA scene is just straight up disrespectful and invalidating.
I'm not familiar with Alfred's Playhouse or its creator, but yeah. Even if she's supposedly a neo n@zi, beating her down for venting through her art is very inappropriate and, regardless of who she is and how bad of a person she might be, just sets a really gross standard.
Ur right about a lot of things in this video but idk about the anti-shipper argument. the anti-shipper argument is specifically about shipping, which is inherently glorification. Calling for the censorship of dark topics being glorified is really the argument. Like saying “don’t treat incest and loli content like it’s cute” not “no dark themes in general.” some antis might believe that, but it’s doing a disservice to say that it’s the point of anti-shipping in general. coming from an anti-shipper who’s written dark subject matters like unhealthy relationships :,) Just my opinion tho, good vid :D
Something I hate about the whole "this is offensive and romanticising/demonising mental health" mentality is: They don't know the person who made the content irl. Irl they may suffer mental health and use dark themed art as an escape to cope And if they DO know the creator personally, its very hurtful to say that if they're also aware this is how they personally cope with their mental illness. Art is for self expression, if someome is suffering from something like sh they shouldn't be canceled for drawing their character(s)/sona with sh scars as it may cause them to do dangerous things to themselves. The best thing to do is to just not engage with the content at all and block the artist entirely instead of trying to cancel them to "help them change and do better" Thank you for sharing your opinions on this subject btw
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE WHOLE VID YES!!! And I feel like the “don’t depict characters with (sh) scars as attractive !!!” is weird as hell, though those who say it could mean something else. Of course, people with scars can always be beautiful, but it’s when people are ONLY depicted as beautiful BECAUSE they have sh scars I start to question it. It’s like,, having an attractive character with sh scars isn’t encouraging anything and is perfectly valid, but having a character who wouldn’t be attractive without their scars is kinda giving weird vibes to me.
Thank you for talking about this, i have a lot of dark themes (Always will trigger warnings ofc) and i always get really uncomfortable when people think like this, i have dark themes for a reason as a writer i want to show those themes in a psychological way, to express reality and to express fantasy of the human mind. I like to add fantasy because despite it being realistic in a way so is fantasy, such as how the mind will view certain things wondering is it real or is it all in my head stuff like that is realistic to certain mental illness such as psychosis (which i have) and other mental traits. Not everything is in black and white and more grey in a complex way of what people see and how people feel, i want that in my writing to provoke a reaction out of people in a way they feel seen and understood so they can relate to these things and find means to cope. Edit: For the haha funnies, at the end of commenting this i ended up leaving cause i got distracted by food forgot to press send my bad lol
Seeing people get mad at artists who draw ocs or even self portraits with healed sh scars pisses me off so much, people have those in real life! i do! i’ve also seen people get criticized online for sharing pictures of their ACTUAL SELVES when they have scars and calling someone’s real appearance “inherently triggering” is just so shitty. I do think posting fresh sh art without a warning is kinda shitty though i love blocking people too 😼
yup, ppl forget that not engaging in triggering topics is an option. for example i dont enjoy overly sexual content, and would block any artist that popped into my feed that depicted it. nothing personal, some of the art was great even, i just dont want to see that. and guess what? after a week or so not a single nsfw piece in my for you. this is how social media algoriths work, just say you dont like it and you wont see it
This! Im writing a comic that has a lot of darker themes as well as themes around morality and I always get scared that people will judge it as demonization or glorification when said themes come up. When that is literally THE POINT! the point of the comic is to show that people are not inheritely good or bad, that people make life altering mistakes or often don't know what theyre getting themselves into. The story of the main character is literally that they both go through and do a lot of bad shit and now have to learn how to heal from it. Not to show whether the mc is a good or bad person
Literally the main character early on digs themself into a hole they they dont know will become the metaphorical sinkhole they fall into and at they end they have to learn how to live with their life after all of what happens
I find the perspective that sh is for attention or a cry for help kind of strange, at least me personally I wouldn’t call it that - or use the generalization of any mental health disorder, as i feel like it’s it’s too complex to fit into one bigger group I’ve never seen someone do it in that sense either. Most of the people I know that struggle with sh (myself including) is an escape or a release Also I like the centipedes :) they’re my current hyperfixation, was very excited when I saw
Something interesting that I've noticed about art that depicts dark themes that one depiction can be vindicating and empowering for one set of victims and triggering and upsetting for another, and here's the important thing: neither of them are wrong or more right than they other. Everyone has different ways of expressing and dealing with their trauma and we need to coexist and support one another. For example, the latest episode of Hazbin released on Prime (episode four) has been criticized for how uncomfortable its subject matter (SA) is, but for me and countless others that have suffered similar trauma because of the subject matter depicted on-screen, myself included, it's incredibly vindicating! Yeah, it's hard to stomach and really hard to watch, but I felt seen! I felt represented and I felt like I wasn't invisible! I felt comforted and supported and it actually helped me work through probably one of the last roadblocks to my trauma I need to work through and now, I can finally move on and live my life with a clear peace of mind after seven years of living with and processing my trauma. It was incredibly healing for me and for a lot of people like me, but some people found it upsetting and triggering, and I support them just as much. It's just as much their voices that I don't want silenced as much as my own. I deserve to be able to have art that speaks honestly to my experiences just as they have a right to avoid art that takes them back to a dark place they would rather leave behind. We all need to support each other, which means supporting the art everyone creates to express themselves and work through their traumas AND properly tagging ours and providing trigger warnings for those that either want to be prepared or want to avoid it for their own mental health. I saw this quote recently and I thought I'd share it: Good art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Like it or not, these things exist and are facts of life no matter how uncomfortable they are and many people live through them every single day. We have a right to express our traumas through our art just as much as others have a right to consume or not consume it. It shouldn't be hard to support one another. We shouldn't be silencing each other, we should stand in solidarity and lift each other voices, especially because we're not a monolith. Everyone's voices matter and no one's should matter more than another's.
I really just want to say, thank you for making this video. Honestly I’ve been scared to make more darker art. Expressing my traumas. I really like yami kawaii things, feeling like I could express myself more with that but I’ve been scared to. In fear of many reasons that were talked about in the video. Like I depict some characters self harm scars. My mental health has been on a decline lately, And making dark art helps me cope. But like i said I’ve been more scared to make it. But this really helped so thank you so much for making this video. This gave me some hope that I can make darker art. So yet again thank you.
I love how this was in my recommendations as I'm literally in the middle of working on my bachelor's thesis on audience response to controversial/problematic art. Excellent video and banger takes, keep it up !
There are really only two justifiable reasons to report someone's art: 1. If said art breaks a website's terms of service. 2. If said art is quite literally illegal (drawn cp, for example). Otherwise, just block, filter, and move on. EDIT: Posted this comment before I got to the part where they said literally this, so my bad. Still agree!
I make a lot of vent art with some very triggering themes, have been making a book abt said themes since I was eight (I am an older teenager rn) and make posts joking abt my own trauma and my book’s character lores that deal with similar trauma to me a lot because that is how I cope. When I was a kid it was very romanticized and even seggsualized in my art because I wanted to romanticize my own experiences and life journey. Now I take a lot more care in portraying these sensitive subjects and constantly add a multitude of trigger warnings for everything I create that touches on them.
My opinion on this is: people should never be shamed or harassed for coping through art, in fact I think more people should be encouraged to do so if they feel comfortable as it’s a safe way to process trauma as privately or publicly as you feel comfortable! However if it’s a very graphic/triggering piece especially if it’s shared in a space you know other trauma survivors are (a discord group for self harm survivors or a facebook group for natural disaster survivors for example) it would be polite/kind to add a content warning.
It's surprised me that a lot of artist are saying that certain art should be taken down like self-harm, gore, etc. Like I thought that debate ended in like 2022 or some shit what?
I've wanted to get into darker topics for a while as a minor (15-16) I've sometimes worried alot about my art like i don't make alot of gore and nsfw I occasionally have partial nudity (nothing detailed), slight gore, mental illness, and abusive people, but i always worry about people being like "your a minor you can't draw that" Like i dont do full on nsfw or anything I should be able to draw whatever i want (withen reason ofc)
First off, this was a great video! I have autism and I’ve got a comic series in the works following a character who also has autism! (Still working on it.) I also have an animated series in mind that might also feature some mental health themes as well as other stuff. I want to treat all these topics with respect so I’m being as honest and respectful as I can! That being said, and here is the second part, I’m glad you reminded us that being respectful and understanding about such topics when creating our art does not mean overly sanitize everything we make if we don’t want to! (Also, as I mentioned in the previous comments, I’m not a fan of people trying to control how other’s art should exist, or exist at all! In some cases, like illegal stuff or certain demographics, then I can understand censoring that stuff (mostly regarding the former). But other than that, trying to censor your art or others art to please…anyone really…very rarely helps anything! (Heck, even movies and shows that are G and PG used to be, and still can be, filled with serious topics that are explored and depicted in very respectful ways! (Puss in Boots: the Last Wish for example!)) Overall, great video! And considering this is my first video I’ve seen from your channel, I’d say this was a decent introduction!
i follow what my old therapist and it is that is better to draw whats hurting you then hurt yourself thats what he said about my art that showed self harm
yeah this is a video that needed to be made cuz ive been shamed irl and online cuz i have sh scars and i draw them on my characters i just tell em dont interact with my work if ya dont like it lmao
holy moly chat youre so yes?!?!?! ive never seen someone go so in depth like this and this is why i love your channel. you talk about the things some people are too afraid to, and you put it into words SO WELL. even for things that we, or even i, might not agree with?? like this is AMAZING. i love commentary so much, and youre one of my favorites. keep being you
I'm biased as someone that writes a lot of books depicting mental health, but oh my god was this so validating to hear. Though I do think there are times where what a person depicts and how they do it can be a reflection of the creator's character (granted when I think that, I am think of book community and the The way authors and readers talk about nazi and kkk romances so the context is definitely different) but even in those cases, I care less about them existing and more about making sure I'm not doing things directly/indirectly to encourage those things to keep getting popular
OK, i feel like this isn't needed but y'know trigger warning, mentions of self harm i am someone who can actually really easily relapse by even the mere sight of the word 'Self harm' on a bad day. 'Then why do you watch this channel if it's harmful to you blablablah.' I am a gore artist that has an art style said to be aesthetically nice to look at without the horror elements, i commonly draw my experiences in my art like self harm for example. and the way i can do this freely without hurting myself is knowing what you're going to see, and preparing yourself. Like you said, you have your own responsibility to know what triggers you, and by this logic i use that to help myself prepare. most of the time a trigger happens when you don't know it's going to happen until you see it. i feel like people should learn this way to have an open mind is my point, i draw to vent, i vent to draw, it's going to be online, there's nothing you can really do about it. the best way you can help yourself get through it is by actually focusing your mindset and realise its going to happen, if you get triggered, that's okay but knowing it will happen will help you better to feel better and help yourself calm down more. honestly if this doesn't make sense i was probably dissociating when i wrote that, but i find it funny so i'm keeping it here. (thank you for listening to my ted talk) obviously you don't have to agree, or believe in this mindset, i'm just a silly person on the internet who just accidentally broke their pinky toe an hour ago.
these are things ive been thinking about a lot lately but have struggled to put into words. this video is really helpful also some things in here that i really needed to hear. would rather not say what in particular but i appreciate it a lot. thank you very much
My art style is different on paper and digital. On paper its some what realistic, but still a bit cartoonish, digital full cartoonish. As seen in my pfps, but still i like to draw dark art sometimes because i like darkish shows
Just pausing real quick at the censorship chapter to mention something that I only just now realized: nuance is to bias as children are to the monsters from Monsters Inc. Basically, people who refuse to take a step back and live off of the whole “xyz is good/bad and there is no excuse” mindset are terrified of nuanced takes because even suggesting that what they believe is at best, misunderstood, is to them the same as saying they are bad people or whatever! at least it seems that way. Ok! Back to the video!
i somewhat i agree ig the point where i dont agree is mainly the illegal stuff not in the sense of the pedo shit but rather protest art or art that criticizes a government or something, the law isn't some objective thing its not always right. i know this isn't the point of the video but yeah. i agree with the abelism thing 100%, this video was surprisingly good tbh. keep making content :3 your styles amazing
RANDOM DISCLAIMERRRR(tyler the creator reference): mentions of fictional s/h,drugs,out of pocket language and other taboo topics When im pissed/depressed i draw what im thinking about like hiding certain content (like nooses,drugs,etc) and drawing gore (due to my depression) and giving my characters self harm scars. do NOT talk about how "problematic as fck" NO IT PISSES ME OFF MORE TO DRAW MORE GORE YOU HAVE NOT SEEN HOW I HAVE SUFFERED (Sorry if i comment on the wrong vid)
Someone on a platform I use to create artwork said I shouldn't vent on the site. I have a lot stuff going on in my life and I draw art on paper that involves self-harm and other disturbing imagery. Also I draw terrible historical figures and other people like that, but I never glorify them.
I agree with your points in the video! And I've heard this a lot, or at least from a UA-cam, that art that depicts stuff like that, "Are meant to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed"[I could of screwed that up- Apologies if i did]. And, That's usually right, and art is very subjective to the user that views it! But, When people say that art like that needs to be taken down or not be made, are usually...yk...Art Karen's sometimes- Most of the time, It's mostly those who support helping those with mental health and spreading awareness until they come across it or see it within media
I've been accused of being abelist and stuff over stuff I write and draw. Usually it's writing, since I still am heavily working on my art style so I can't draw what I want to. I use my art and writing to vent, and tend to make characters who express my trauma. I have been abused in tons of ways by a ton of people, and plenty of my characters express that abuse. My biggest example is my character Rhena Brookes, who started just as a cheshire cat inspired girl, into a girl with DID (I don't have DID, it just felt right when I did research and figured trauma venting could be easier when it's summed as multiple people in one brain) who has alters dedicated to her traumas, from parental abuse, peer abuse, and thoughts of self harm. One of the alters is one that I didn't even know why I made him... Until I realized I was non-physically sexually abused by my "father", then it made more sense why I gave him the story I did. Their whole stories are about how someone can be hurt to an endless degree, yet still manage to be okay somehow. It's a sort of catharsis for me.
I agree with most of your points especially on censorship however I just wanted to point out how ppl with mental illness/trauma can demonize/romanticize their mental illness and them being mentally ill doesn’t instantly make that ok/impossible to happen. Obviously mental illness can cause you to romanticize or demonize your struggles but that doesn’t make that happening ok if that makes sense. I don’t believe vent/art with dark themes should be censored though but if the artist does for example promote mental illness they should be held accountable for that Also depending on how it’s shown I do think SH in art can promote ppl to SH. I don’t think SH scars shown in art is bad at all in fact I often draw characters with SH scars but I do think it can be used to promote SH Especially in closed circles I understand that artists have no control of who sees their art but I do think an important piece of this conversation is how sadly there’s alot of children/young ppl on the internet. Who are likely just being introduced to dark topics and themes so how those themes are displayed is important because it can influence ppls views/actions (this goes with both sides) I don’t think ppl should not be allowed to draw certain things because of something they can’t control but I do think ppl should be more aware of their influence?
13:08 every time I hear someone or hear about someone who essentially is trying to direct how mental health is “supposed” to be dealt with (unless the current way someone is dealing with it is actually harmful…which trying to control others pretty much falls under that category) I always do a double take because, understandable or not, people trying to make everything related to mental health behave how they think it should behave just makes me ticked off! And even if I understand why, it still irritates me!
Ive got an oc that is incredibly self destructive. Ive been told that im glorifying her behavior, but when i write or talk about her, its never portrayed as a positive thing. Im portraying something harmful as just that. Its not healthy, but thats kind of the point
In my opinion when it comes to censorship I don’t think media shouldn’t be censor. Even when it comes to very problematic media that endured things like incest, racism, homophobia, sexist, and etc. why? Since it can be a learning example on why those things are wrong. For example those old racist movies and cartoons shouldn’t be censored instead it taught to people especially to younger children on why those things are wrong.
half of the problems mentioned here could be solved if people actually appropriately tagged their art. I see shit on like ao3 that's just tagged as "dead dove do not eat" without... any indication of what the "dead dove" actually is. that is poor tagging. you have to tag exactly what it is so people can avoid it. You can't "don't like don't look" if there's no indication of what that could be.
I was susprised at the first 5 minutes of the video. I didn't expect an art youtube outside of anime art or NSFW. But where is disagree is animals, shota, and loli. The question is should they be illegal? If it is illegal of course it shouldn't be posted but should it be illegal just because it is seen as disgusting? It is just fiction? If you find it disgusting people should move on. I think that is what Japan does best. Creative freedom. The ironic thing is those who praise Japan for that complain when a conpany of person does what they don't like and not for sexualising people but for not sexualising women. On the other hand, a popular manhua had been pressured by the government to censore things because it was bl. It wasn't even yaoi or all that sexual. I heard rumours that they wanted to move to Japan. China also have many other laws and regulations for fiction that many people find disgusting but are harmless like homosexuality and feminine men.
This might be a bit more off-topic -ish, but how do you feel about depicting mental illnesses in art that the creator of said art isn’t suffering from?
I think it's fine, though I'd recommend doing a lot of research and adding disclaimers. I'm someone with a lot of mental health issues/illnesses, but I don't have all of them and I still feel like it's important to represent others or to even explore things I don't have first hand experience with in my art. Overall, i just think it's fine and neat to write about other mental illnesses that the writer may not have, though being open to criticism and doing research is good. :]
real, people CAN and should be allowed to write darker themes, i just think it becomes a gross real problem and should not exist when it comes to literal pedophilia, incest and other illegal shit similar). Romanticizing said topics like that is a real issue as it has been proven that some fiction that people write can influence and normalize behavior, which can lead to... lack for better words: a situation. (experience speaking, sadly) when it comes to exploring it as a topic for a creative thing (i,e for story progress) then? yeah content warnings are appreciated but it's not like its gonna be the end of the world if i want to explore an abusive relationship where one of the characters within it still stays and believes that they can make it work, i have the right to write it. In Wings of Fire, an abusive relationship is between Clearsight and Darkstalker, and I think it was written tastefully, it felt real, sometimes absuvie relationships are like that. if i want to write a hard scene where a character experiences a stressful moment and relieves it by self infliction, then yeah, i have the right to write that too (as someone who also experienced and been clean for 2 years now). it's not black and white, there's a lot of gray area. And people tend to always ignore the various shades of gray.
Question! What's your opinion on people who don't take issue with stuff like self harm scars/injuries or depictions/descriptions of severe trauma and mental health issues being posted, but request that a content warning is put on it so that those who want to see it can have a look at it, and those who don't can disengage without having to see it first? Because I see people be pretty 50/50 on this, with some saying that healed SH scars in particular should never require a warning when it's shown in art, while others think it's perfectly fine to post as long as that warning is present. So I was just curious what your take on that is. Asking as someone who has dealt with SH myself btw, and is kind of torn on it, as I have seen people relapse due to it first hand, but who also has close friends who don't feel that they should have to hide a part of themselves for other peoples comfort, since it is a part of them and their past that they can't go back and change. So I just want an opinion from someone who has no reason to sugarcoat their reply and doesn't feel the need to agree with me because they know me.
I think that including a content warning is always a good idea. The way I do it is by including the content warnings in the tags of the post so that people who have filtered out the self-harm tag or whatever else can avoid it. :]
This debate makes so fucking mad, I'm really glad someone like you decided to cover it (especially since you're so good at wording yourself and always have based takes). Everyone treats "romanticism" as such a bad, horrible thing when in reality, it really isn't. When you look up the definition for "romanticize" you get: "deal with or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion; make (something) seem better or more appealing than it really is". Which is incredibly vague and just means that, as long as you make something seem at least slightly better than how it is in real life, it would be considered "romanticism", and we ALL do that, ALL the time. If romanticism is always bad, no matter what, that would make things like joking about your trauma morally wrong. That's stupid. Romanticization can become promotion, but the two aren't inherently connected. I hate the "more moral than thou" attitude people have on the internet. People are constantly fighting amongst each other, trying to show how morally superior and "holy" they are. The worst part is - most of the time, they actually invalidate others while doing so. I have seen so many people say that drawing people self harming while smiling is bad because it "romanticizes self harm". Like, oh really? Because when I used to self harm, I would almost always do it when I was manic. Know what happens when you're manic? You smile and laugh a lot! How is it "romanticism" if it ACTUALLY happens in real life in that same manner? One thing I'd like to correct you on though, is that proshipping doesn't necessarily mean "thinking every single thing ever should be allowed to be portrayed in any way without limitations". Most proshippers agree that some things should never be given permission to exist (like loli/shota hentai, for example), coming from someone in that community. We just believe harassing people over art is bad and stupid and that fiction isn't reality and shouldn't be held to the same standards as it. Granted, some proshippers are really gross/have that stupid, black-and-white mentality, but those are just the loud mainority, most of us are really reasonable.
I realise not all proshippers are pro loli/shota, don't worry. ^^'' I've met quite a few of them that are just nice and normal people who have basically the same takes as me. I just don't really like the proshipper label itself because certain people who ARE pro loli-shota use it as well. But yeah, no judgement from me. :]
@rottika oh yeah, definitely. Some really gross people try to sneak into the community with their stupid bs. That's why it's important to always keep an eye out, just in case. I do think you shouldn't use the term "proshitter" though, because it just makes people mad and fall deeper down the rabbit hole, you know? When you insult someone, it just makes them feel attacked and ignore all of your valid points and criticism. /lh /nm
thats not how proshippers works, its not like it should or shouldnt exist (thats not something for you or anyone to decide, frankly), its more about us engaging with content or not. and before you say anything - i was there when the whole thing even started out. the only real limitations come from fiction with real people and/or hatespeech because those are directly harmful.
Just wanted to know what are you're thoughts on people from twitter calling artists who draws nsfw loli content pdfiles and get people to mass report them till they account is gone.
Since you mentioned lolis and shotas as an example of content that should be censored, I am curious on your opinion on it Rottika. I am also curious that if these were illegal or bad, how is there anime, even popular anime that has those characters? And what makes them different from small and petite anime characters that are adults since I have heard the word loli or shota also used to describe said characters?
When I said I think loli/shota is wrong, I am specifically referring to p0rnographic content with minors. Not adults who are small and/or just look younger than they are, but minors. P0rnographic images of children, whether real or fiction, is not okay, in my personal opinion. It's also illegal, even drawn, in certain countries (and states in the US as well). The reason why there was anime with lolis/shotas in them is because, well, it's anime and not p0rn and, because it's not explicit, it's not illegal in most countries. Lolicon/shotacon p0rnopgrahy was actually perfectly legal in Japan for a long time, hence why there is a lot of it, unfortunately. To my knowledge, it is now currently illegal to make drawn p0rn of minor characters and people there (and in the US) have been rightfully arrested for its possession. I don't think that all work featuring child sexuality is wrong, of course, especially in the cases of stories like Lolita or Tideland where the work itself is not meant to titillate the viewer. It's just that when it's p0rn, meant to be seen as sexually appealing to a viewer, that it's wrong. That is my opinion on the matter.
@@sugarzblossom8168 Funny you say that cause there is an actual law about it, if you expose it to either a minor or if it's unwanted it's considered immoral and illegal, so i think you should look into that law because they exist.
So characters who like they are being a burden to characters in a story actually become a burden to people on Twitter/X. Iconic that those people don't also promote bullying😂
Creating dark work is fine, what I DON'T think its OK with dark work is something like urban spook, who is literally profiting off of child grape art they made and also basing it off of a real person. If you support, or agree that how urban spook is making art- I DO think you need help. Because it's OK to make dark art, but how he did it, is gross and literally illegal and animal stuff.
the internet is a place for literally everything lol, trying to police what people upload is impossible and crazy!! (even if it is something i’d personally dislike too)
You (nor anyone else, actually) do not get to decide what is appropriate nor inappropriate for someone else to do in their own space and on their own platforms. Frankly, I agree that venting online can sometimes be a bad decision, but censoring it because it offends or upsets you, silencing people who have nowhere else to go (not everyone can afford therapy and not everyone has people in their real life to talk to yk), and telling mentally ill people to just shut up because it discomforts you (or others) is ridiculous and inappropriate. If you are upset by people venting through their art, then that's perfectly fine and valid! My channel and other platforms are just not the place for you.
15:33 Oh yes, finally someone who brings up the whole “block button = you lose and you’re sensitive” thing. There is a reason the option to block exists, and it’s to not see stuff you don’t want to see. It’s to *block* people or things so you don’t have to accidentally come across them. No idea why everyone thinks it’s a better option to comment vile or dumb things on people they don’t vibe with.
I had an argument with a close friend relating to them defending proships. Now, when I say "Pro ship" I mean incest ships, grooming ships and pedo ships, not toxic relationships between two unrelated adults ships. They kept saying that people who make content like this are just "using it to cope through art'. I had to repeatedly tell them that: A) you can express your "trauma" through art without making porn of it. B) if it really was just to deal with personal trauma they wouldn't post it for others to see, they'd keep it to themselves.
I just wanted to say that most proshippers are just people who think pedo ships are cutesy and aren’t doing it to cope or to vent, they do it because they’re genuinely into that stuff and most antishippers are people who think that’s bad, if it was to vent or anything like that then it would be fine but that’s not the case with most proshippers and I’m not sure it’s very accurate to say that antishippers think that it should NEVER be depicted, I mean I’m sure plenty do but that’s usually not the case and antishippers go after those weirdos who like to see pedo ships because it’s gross and they want them to knock it off
ah, here it is, the lies of fancops. no, thats not how proship think or what proshipping is. some proship might be into l0li/sh0ta for various reasons, doesnt mean all of them are. They just follow exact mantra of "dont like, dont look". Also you literally dont know any of these people, you have 0 info to judge them if they are survivors or not, nor are they obligated to inform you of that - and in my experience, a lot of them are, and your rhetoric is made to invalidate them because of your feelings. And another lie - for antishippers, it NOT existing IS the point. Antishippers WANT censorship, complete (well, besides things they like - but then it ends up with antis just eating each other because wow, somebody from their group liked a ship spicier than marinara sauce, surely they now deserve to harm themselves), because they dont see art as valid way to cope or even just to explore theme in fiction, because in their idea its "no therapist would recommend this" and bazillion of "-lizations" that are nothing but somebody trying to moralize their squick. Like, no, its never been "they just should knock it off", never was.
can someone explain this stupid hypicricy thing here. I watch documentarys about those topics. I will go into the self harm topic, because i see it the moste there. Almost all of them show teens or children who are on tik tok or instagram who self harm. The stragnest thing is that tey all say the same that just looking ats self harm wounds/ scars indorces them to do it again and are even not allowed on the platform in itself. So here is my question. Why is it not ok in real life to show them because of indorcement and in art not ? Yes those were just pictures without captions if someone is going to ask that.
same goes for cp by the way. I do not understand why it is excusable when it is drawn but not when it is real. I am 24 if someone asks. I have problems with understanding why people do or say things diffrently just because the medium is diffrent. And yes cp in anime or drawn triggers me heavily, because i got sa'd as a child. I just want to understand those thoughts of people who think diffrently than me.
@@kittykat9691 I don't understand the first comment but for the second comment: Real CP involves real victims. Drawn CP doesn't unless someone puts a real person into the drawing.
@@D_YellowMadness ok. the first is mostly about people who harm themselfs with knifes etc. I am from germany were we have a lot of docus about diffrent topics. I had seen people excuse the self harm if it is drawn but saying it is harmful if they are real pictures of the same thing. It confuses me if people say one is ok while the other should not exist. And thanks for the explanation.
@@kittykat9691a real photo takes the time of hurting a person or a child, art is a drawing no matter what’s in it, it can be gross but don’t look at it. But a real photo is completely different and a drawing can be a way of people coping with thoughts, which thoughts are not actions.
@@D_YellowMadnessthe thing is there are groomers who absolutely use pro ship art to normalize exploitative/abusive relationships. You can’t censor all ship art, but you do have to be responsible.
I completely agree with the dont like don’t look argument. Your comfort isn’t anyone else’s responsibility, if something triggers you, separate yourself from the places it’s found. I had someone harass me on my writting tumblr because they thought my writting was too dark and triggering. Complaining about dark themes or things you don’t like existing is dumb. Blocking someone isn’t hard yet people always feel like they need another reason to dislike someone (like the drama with the eyes on TikTok)
I agree with you. I'm not the biggest fan of the whole "all controversial content needs to be censored" or the "you create [X/Y] content, so that must mean you're enjoying/glorifying/endoursing/fetishizing, etc. it" mindsets.
Like you said, instead of being a solely black and white issue, it more often comes in various grey tones. Some criticism is valid - like when it crosses into legal territory - and some isn't.
I personally am a BIG fan of trigger warnings. Even when they're just warning you about the seemingly slightest thing. It just shows that the creator really doesn't want anyone to be subjected to content that might make them uncomfortable. All of my artworks or fanfics that contain any sensitive topics - self harm, gore, s3xual themes, etc. - have trigger warnings, so people can leave if they feel they can't handle it. If they still decide to consume said content and are upset afterwards, I really don't think it's my fault.
I for example am really uncomfortable with vore and inflation, but instead of harassing people who create such content, demanding their work gets censored or taken down, I just don't seek out that kind of content and leave those people be. It's as simple as that.
Back when I was a depressed teen I started self harming only because I saw it in a TV show. I didn't even know that was a thing. But I still don't blame the TV show. I blame my parents for not getting me help especially when they knew I was doing that. It was a cry for help. I also drew this kind of thing a few times to help me express my anguish. I'm an artist and I really dislike the push to sanitize people's creativity to protect others. It hurts to say but we truly are responsible for our own triggers. We don't deserve what happened to us but we have to life with it and take care of ourselves. If we are having addictions and not in a good mindset then we need to be careful of the media and social media we are on. You can block tags, you can avoid media and sites. We can not make our issues the world's responsibility. Expecting this is setting yourself up for a lot of failure because this is the reality of the world we live in. The world is not a safe place and we need to be ready to navigate it. Of course all content creators should take steps to give warnings when applicable, but I do think that too many place a lot of responsibility on the creator vs the self.
In my opinion is that in most cases, if there’s a trigger warning it’s 100% on you if you ignore it and see something that triggers you. People love to throw around therapy language willy nilly but conveniently ignore one of the first things you learn in therapy, your triggers are not your fault but they are your responsibility. You don’t get to go into other people’s spaces and get angry at someone who warned you that their art isn’t for you.
The problem with depicting self harm is seeing fresh cuts is extremely triggering. Personally I only see it as a problem when it’s used to be aesthetic or sexual since my scars have been grossly sexualized and making it an aesthetic quirk can encourage people to self harm and since it’s addictive it’s harmful.
yea like cutegore/gorecore often does show people gore/scars in a way that can be triggering and glorify physical abuse or sh. but simply having a character with scars just... there..? they're essentially saying that having scars is shameful.
I’m very sorry that your scars have been sexualised, that’s really awful. :(
However, I don’t necessarily see the fact that something can be triggering as a problem. A lot of different things are triggering to a multitude of different people, and while I agree with you strongly that presenting self-harm as quirky and aesthetic is, in many ways harmful, I don’t think that it’s bad because it triggers people. As I said in the video, it’s up to people themselves to regulate what they see and filter out stuff that triggers them and not the artist’s responsibility to remove or change their hard work because it might be upsetting.
To anyone and everyone reading this: if self-harm scars on characters triggers you, then you need to zoom away from my channel and my art at TOP SPEEDS, dude. Take care of yourself and your mental health. ❤️
@@rottika I agree
just because it makes YOU uncomfortable, does not mean it's harmful.
@@delusionaldogz brother it is(I guess more like has the capacity to be) harmful to people who self harm like me.
TW: Talks about murder and r4p3
I draw a lot of horror art, and I have seen others who make their own horror characters criticized for drawing them with weapons covered in blood, people say that they are glorifying real serial killers just because some of their ocs have killed people, which I think is disgusting because they are not real people and aren't killing real people, however I do agree that glorifying characters who are r4p1sts is harmful because it justifies real rape, but it is okay to have r4p1st characters as long as they aren't depicted as the good guy. Just because you create a serial killer oc doesn't mean that you support killing people, idk if this comment makes sense but I hope that you understand
I had something like this happen to me recently. I'm almost 30 and struggled with SH in my teens and early twenty's alot of my ocs have some sort of mental health issues and i draw them alot in ways that doesn't hide that. I also live to draw spicy things. I uploaded two pieces of art on DA that I was really proud off, one had sexual themes the other was just nudity (all tagged appropriately). The one i got hate, even got reported for resulting in it taken down was just the nudity, the report claiming it was too sexual for the platform?!? .. these drawings where of the same character but only the one that was reported had the characters SH scars visible in the posing. So you can give a BJ but you cant stand alone with visible scars? ... FFS
your points make a lot of sense. this is a lighter topic, but for example, i get creeped out by mold. there is an artist that i follow that sometimes draws fungus inspired characters, hence draws mold. instead of leaving a hate comment, i took TWO SECONDS to just filter out the mold tag. its really not that hard. nice video
I want to create art , stories and content and stuff like that show ps my experiences and also that depict nudity, not necessarily porn but I’m getting shit from people around me who have no idea what those are like or what I’m talking about they just write it off as offensive content and either tell be I should have never done it or laugh at it like it’s satire( to an extent I understand the leather, some of the works I’ve been in and worked at are comedies, but a lot of those i am talking about here weren’t/aren’t)
I heavily agree with everything said in this video. A lot of artists use their work as a way to express their emotions and berating artists for drawing darker things (such as SH) can actually worsen the artist's mental health. Art is a coping mechanism for many people and being told that they're wrong for using a healthy coping mechanism can and will only make things worse.
I find it really ironic how the people who do this claim it's to try and protect people from being trigger by it actually only end up worsening the mental health of those they claim to be doing this for
i completely agree with this. and ive seen this has occurred a lot when people talk about alfreds playhouse; it feels like theyre invalidating emily (and yes i know shes a neo notzee and i do not condone that.) and other SA victims for venting thru art about their experience. deeming it as “wrong” and “disgusting” feels very shameful towards victims, saying this as a victim myself. now, i dont think emily is a good person, no, not at all and i disagree heavily with her political ideals. but i still think the way people discuss about why the show is “bad” especially regarding the SA scene is just straight up disrespectful and invalidating.
I'm not familiar with Alfred's Playhouse or its creator, but yeah. Even if she's supposedly a neo n@zi, beating her down for venting through her art is very inappropriate and, regardless of who she is and how bad of a person she might be, just sets a really gross standard.
Ur right about a lot of things in this video but idk about the anti-shipper argument. the anti-shipper argument is specifically about shipping, which is inherently glorification. Calling for the censorship of dark topics being glorified is really the argument. Like saying “don’t treat incest and loli content like it’s cute” not “no dark themes in general.” some antis might believe that, but it’s doing a disservice to say that it’s the point of anti-shipping in general. coming from an anti-shipper who’s written dark subject matters like unhealthy relationships :,) Just my opinion tho, good vid :D
Something I hate about the whole "this is offensive and romanticising/demonising mental health" mentality is:
They don't know the person who made the content irl. Irl they may suffer mental health and use dark themed art as an escape to cope
And if they DO know the creator personally, its very hurtful to say that if they're also aware this is how they personally cope with their mental illness.
Art is for self expression, if someome is suffering from something like sh they shouldn't be canceled for drawing their character(s)/sona with sh scars as it may cause them to do dangerous things to themselves.
The best thing to do is to just not engage with the content at all and block the artist entirely instead of trying to cancel them to "help them change and do better"
Thank you for sharing your opinions on this subject btw
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE WHOLE VID YES!!! And I feel like the “don’t depict characters with (sh) scars as attractive !!!” is weird as hell, though those who say it could mean something else. Of course, people with scars can always be beautiful, but it’s when people are ONLY depicted as beautiful BECAUSE they have sh scars I start to question it. It’s like,, having an attractive character with sh scars isn’t encouraging anything and is perfectly valid, but having a character who wouldn’t be attractive without their scars is kinda giving weird vibes to me.
Thank you for talking about this, i have a lot of dark themes (Always will trigger warnings ofc) and i always get really uncomfortable when people think like this, i have dark themes for a reason as a writer i want to show those themes in a psychological way, to express reality and to express fantasy of the human mind.
I like to add fantasy because despite it being realistic in a way so is fantasy, such as how the mind will view certain things wondering is it real or is it all in my head stuff like that is realistic to certain mental illness such as psychosis (which i have) and other mental traits.
Not everything is in black and white and more grey in a complex way of what people see and how people feel, i want that in my writing to provoke a reaction out of people in a way they feel seen and understood so they can relate to these things and find means to cope.
Edit: For the haha funnies, at the end of commenting this i ended up leaving cause i got distracted by food forgot to press send my bad lol
Seeing people get mad at artists who draw ocs or even self portraits with healed sh scars pisses me off so much, people have those in real life! i do! i’ve also seen people get criticized online for sharing pictures of their ACTUAL SELVES when they have scars and calling someone’s real appearance “inherently triggering” is just so shitty.
I do think posting fresh sh art without a warning is kinda shitty though
i love blocking people too 😼
yup, ppl forget that not engaging in triggering topics is an option. for example i dont enjoy overly sexual content, and would block any artist that popped into my feed that depicted it. nothing personal, some of the art was great even, i just dont want to see that. and guess what? after a week or so not a single nsfw piece in my for you. this is how social media algoriths work, just say you dont like it and you wont see it
This! Im writing a comic that has a lot of darker themes as well as themes around morality and I always get scared that people will judge it as demonization or glorification when said themes come up. When that is literally THE POINT! the point of the comic is to show that people are not inheritely good or bad, that people make life altering mistakes or often don't know what theyre getting themselves into. The story of the main character is literally that they both go through and do a lot of bad shit and now have to learn how to heal from it. Not to show whether the mc is a good or bad person
Literally the main character early on digs themself into a hole they they dont know will become the metaphorical sinkhole they fall into and at they end they have to learn how to live with their life after all of what happens
unrelated but the faith ost in the background
I find the perspective that sh is for attention or a cry for help kind of strange, at least me personally I wouldn’t call it that - or use the generalization of any mental health disorder, as i feel like it’s it’s too complex to fit into one bigger group
I’ve never seen someone do it in that sense either. Most of the people I know that struggle with sh (myself including) is an escape or a release
Also I like the centipedes :) they’re my current hyperfixation, was very excited when I saw
Something interesting that I've noticed about art that depicts dark themes that one depiction can be vindicating and empowering for one set of victims and triggering and upsetting for another, and here's the important thing: neither of them are wrong or more right than they other. Everyone has different ways of expressing and dealing with their trauma and we need to coexist and support one another.
For example, the latest episode of Hazbin released on Prime (episode four) has been criticized for how uncomfortable its subject matter (SA) is, but for me and countless others that have suffered similar trauma because of the subject matter depicted on-screen, myself included, it's incredibly vindicating! Yeah, it's hard to stomach and really hard to watch, but I felt seen! I felt represented and I felt like I wasn't invisible! I felt comforted and supported and it actually helped me work through probably one of the last roadblocks to my trauma I need to work through and now, I can finally move on and live my life with a clear peace of mind after seven years of living with and processing my trauma.
It was incredibly healing for me and for a lot of people like me, but some people found it upsetting and triggering, and I support them just as much. It's just as much their voices that I don't want silenced as much as my own. I deserve to be able to have art that speaks honestly to my experiences just as they have a right to avoid art that takes them back to a dark place they would rather leave behind.
We all need to support each other, which means supporting the art everyone creates to express themselves and work through their traumas AND properly tagging ours and providing trigger warnings for those that either want to be prepared or want to avoid it for their own mental health.
I saw this quote recently and I thought I'd share it: Good art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.
Like it or not, these things exist and are facts of life no matter how uncomfortable they are and many people live through them every single day. We have a right to express our traumas through our art just as much as others have a right to consume or not consume it. It shouldn't be hard to support one another. We shouldn't be silencing each other, we should stand in solidarity and lift each other voices, especially because we're not a monolith. Everyone's voices matter and no one's should matter more than another's.
I really just want to say, thank you for making this video. Honestly I’ve been scared to make more darker art. Expressing my traumas. I really like yami kawaii things, feeling like I could express myself more with that but I’ve been scared to. In fear of many reasons that were talked about in the video. Like I depict some characters self harm scars. My mental health has been on a decline lately, And making dark art helps me cope. But like i said I’ve been more scared to make it. But this really helped so thank you so much for making this video. This gave me some hope that I can make darker art. So yet again thank you.
I wish i could repost youtube videos
I’ve been watching all your videos while I do my commissions and I love hearing your stories. Love your work ❤️
the way i've had to pause and process how ableist some of these claims are while accusing someone else of being the ableist one..
I love how this was in my recommendations as I'm literally in the middle of working on my bachelor's thesis on audience response to controversial/problematic art. Excellent video and banger takes, keep it up !
There are really only two justifiable reasons to report someone's art:
1. If said art breaks a website's terms of service.
2. If said art is quite literally illegal (drawn cp, for example).
Otherwise, just block, filter, and move on.
EDIT: Posted this comment before I got to the part where they said literally this, so my bad. Still agree!
I make a lot of vent art with some very triggering themes, have been making a book abt said themes since I was eight (I am an older teenager rn) and make posts joking abt my own trauma and my book’s character lores that deal with similar trauma to me a lot because that is how I cope. When I was a kid it was very romanticized and even seggsualized in my art because I wanted to romanticize my own experiences and life journey. Now I take a lot more care in portraying these sensitive subjects and constantly add a multitude of trigger warnings for everything I create that touches on them.
My opinion on this is: people should never be shamed or harassed for coping through art, in fact I think more people should be encouraged to do so if they feel comfortable as it’s a safe way to process trauma as privately or publicly as you feel comfortable! However if it’s a very graphic/triggering piece especially if it’s shared in a space you know other trauma survivors are (a discord group for self harm survivors or a facebook group for natural disaster survivors for example) it would be polite/kind to add a content warning.
It's surprised me that a lot of artist are saying that certain art should be taken down like self-harm, gore, etc. Like I thought that debate ended in like 2022 or some shit what?
I've wanted to get into darker topics for a while as a minor (15-16) I've sometimes worried alot about my art like i don't make alot of gore and nsfw
I occasionally have partial nudity (nothing detailed), slight gore, mental illness, and abusive people, but i always worry about people being like "your a minor you can't draw that"
Like i dont do full on nsfw or anything
I should be able to draw whatever i want (withen reason ofc)
First off, this was a great video! I have autism and I’ve got a comic series in the works following a character who also has autism! (Still working on it.) I also have an animated series in mind that might also feature some mental health themes as well as other stuff. I want to treat all these topics with respect so I’m being as honest and respectful as I can!
That being said, and here is the second part, I’m glad you reminded us that being respectful and understanding about such topics when creating our art does not mean overly sanitize everything we make if we don’t want to! (Also, as I mentioned in the previous comments, I’m not a fan of people trying to control how other’s art should exist, or exist at all! In some cases, like illegal stuff or certain demographics, then I can understand censoring that stuff (mostly regarding the former). But other than that, trying to censor your art or others art to please…anyone really…very rarely helps anything! (Heck, even movies and shows that are G and PG used to be, and still can be, filled with serious topics that are explored and depicted in very respectful ways! (Puss in Boots: the Last Wish for example!))
Overall, great video! And considering this is my first video I’ve seen from your channel, I’d say this was a decent introduction!
i follow what my old therapist and it is that is better to draw whats hurting you then hurt yourself thats what he said about my art that showed self harm
yeah this is a video that needed to be made cuz ive been shamed irl and online cuz i have sh scars and i draw them on my characters i just tell em dont interact with my work if ya dont like it lmao
thank you so much for this video. i wish i could blast this video through a megaphone because more people need to hear this
holy moly chat youre so yes?!?!?! ive never seen someone go so in depth like this and this is why i love your channel. you talk about the things some people are too afraid to, and you put it into words SO WELL. even for things that we, or even i, might not agree with?? like this is AMAZING. i love commentary so much, and youre one of my favorites. keep being you
I'm biased as someone that writes a lot of books depicting mental health, but oh my god was this so validating to hear. Though I do think there are times where what a person depicts and how they do it can be a reflection of the creator's character (granted when I think that, I am think of book community and the The way authors and readers talk about nazi and kkk romances so the context is definitely different) but even in those cases, I care less about them existing and more about making sure I'm not doing things directly/indirectly to encourage those things to keep getting popular
OK, i feel like this isn't needed but y'know trigger warning, mentions of self harm
i am someone who can actually really easily relapse by even the mere sight of the word 'Self harm' on a bad day.
'Then why do you watch this channel if it's harmful to you blablablah.' I am a gore artist that has an art style said to be aesthetically nice to look at without the horror elements, i commonly draw my experiences in my art like self harm for example. and the way i can do this freely without hurting myself is knowing what you're going to see, and preparing yourself. Like you said, you have your own responsibility to know what triggers you, and by this logic i use that to help myself prepare.
most of the time a trigger happens when you don't know it's going to happen until you see it.
i feel like people should learn this way to have an open mind is my point, i draw to vent, i vent to draw, it's going to be online, there's nothing you can really do about it.
the best way you can help yourself get through it is by actually focusing your mindset and realise its going to happen, if you get triggered, that's okay but knowing it will happen will help you better to feel better and help yourself calm down more.
honestly if this doesn't make sense i was probably dissociating when i wrote that, but i find it funny so i'm keeping it here. (thank you for listening to my ted talk)
obviously you don't have to agree, or believe in this mindset, i'm just a silly person on the internet who just accidentally broke their pinky toe an hour ago.
thank you for this video, i had to deal with mental health and abuse my whole life and i get the same comments and im autistic as well
these are things ive been thinking about a lot lately but have struggled to put into words. this video is really helpful
also some things in here that i really needed to hear. would rather not say what in particular but i appreciate it a lot. thank you very much
It fully depends if the right precautions have been taken, 13 reasons why is one big example of carelessly poking dark themes is bad
My art style is different on paper and digital. On paper its some what realistic, but still a bit cartoonish, digital full cartoonish. As seen in my pfps, but still i like to draw dark art sometimes because i like darkish shows
Just pausing real quick at the censorship chapter to mention something that I only just now realized: nuance is to bias as children are to the monsters from Monsters Inc.
Basically, people who refuse to take a step back and live off of the whole “xyz is good/bad and there is no excuse” mindset are terrified of nuanced takes because even suggesting that what they believe is at best, misunderstood, is to them the same as saying they are bad people or whatever!
at least it seems that way.
Ok! Back to the video!
i somewhat i agree ig the point where i dont agree is mainly the illegal stuff not in the sense of the pedo shit but rather protest art or art that criticizes a government or something, the law isn't some objective thing its not always right. i know this isn't the point of the video but yeah. i agree with the abelism thing 100%, this video was surprisingly good tbh. keep making content :3 your styles amazing
RANDOM DISCLAIMERRRR(tyler the creator reference):
mentions of fictional s/h,drugs,out of pocket language and other taboo topics
When im pissed/depressed i draw what im thinking about like hiding certain content (like nooses,drugs,etc) and drawing gore (due to my depression) and giving my characters self harm scars. do NOT talk about how "problematic as fck" NO IT PISSES ME OFF MORE TO DRAW MORE GORE YOU HAVE NOT SEEN HOW I HAVE SUFFERED
(Sorry if i comment on the wrong vid)
However I take criticism tho :D
Oh god this comment is cringe i have changed my mentality of drawing gore art
This is why disclaimers are the ultimate compromise. Something making people uncomfortable does not inherently make it problematic
Someone on a platform I use to create artwork said I shouldn't vent on the site.
I have a lot stuff going on in my life and I draw art on paper that involves self-harm and other disturbing imagery.
Also I draw terrible historical figures and other people like that, but I never glorify them.
Great video man, recently discovered your channel and your commentary is a breath of fresh air
Thank you so much for posting this video, I agree with everything you said in this video.
Also love the art work!
I agree with your points in the video!
And I've heard this a lot, or at least from a UA-cam, that art that depicts stuff like that, "Are meant to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed"[I could of screwed that up- Apologies if i did]. And, That's usually right, and art is very subjective to the user that views it!
But, When people say that art like that needs to be taken down or not be made, are usually...yk...Art Karen's sometimes-
Most of the time, It's mostly those who support helping those with mental health and spreading awareness until they come across it or see it within media
I've been accused of being abelist and stuff over stuff I write and draw. Usually it's writing, since I still am heavily working on my art style so I can't draw what I want to.
I use my art and writing to vent, and tend to make characters who express my trauma. I have been abused in tons of ways by a ton of people, and plenty of my characters express that abuse. My biggest example is my character Rhena Brookes, who started just as a cheshire cat inspired girl, into a girl with DID (I don't have DID, it just felt right when I did research and figured trauma venting could be easier when it's summed as multiple people in one brain) who has alters dedicated to her traumas, from parental abuse, peer abuse, and thoughts of self harm. One of the alters is one that I didn't even know why I made him... Until I realized I was non-physically sexually abused by my "father", then it made more sense why I gave him the story I did. Their whole stories are about how someone can be hurt to an endless degree, yet still manage to be okay somehow. It's a sort of catharsis for me.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS
I agree with most of your points especially on censorship however I just wanted to point out how ppl with mental illness/trauma can demonize/romanticize their mental illness and them being mentally ill doesn’t instantly make that ok/impossible to happen. Obviously mental illness can cause you to romanticize or demonize your struggles but that doesn’t make that happening ok if that makes sense.
I don’t believe vent/art with dark themes should be censored though but if the artist does for example promote mental illness they should be held accountable for that
Also depending on how it’s shown I do think SH in art can promote ppl to SH. I don’t think SH scars shown in art is bad at all in fact I often draw characters with SH scars but I do think it can be used to promote SH
Especially in closed circles
I understand that artists have no control of who sees their art but I do think an important piece of this conversation is how sadly there’s alot of children/young ppl on the internet. Who are likely just being introduced to dark topics and themes so how those themes are displayed is important because it can influence ppls views/actions (this goes with both sides)
I don’t think ppl should not be allowed to draw certain things because of something they can’t control but I do think ppl should be more aware of their influence?
13:08 every time I hear someone or hear about someone who essentially is trying to direct how mental health is “supposed” to be dealt with (unless the current way someone is dealing with it is actually harmful…which trying to control others pretty much falls under that category) I always do a double take because, understandable or not, people trying to make everything related to mental health behave how they think it should behave just makes me ticked off! And even if I understand why, it still irritates me!
Ive got an oc that is incredibly self destructive. Ive been told that im glorifying her behavior, but when i write or talk about her, its never portrayed as a positive thing. Im portraying something harmful as just that. Its not healthy, but thats kind of the point
I am actually angry someone has to say this and that this isn't a given.
I don't think such content should be removed, I just think it should have a trigger warning.
In my opinion when it comes to censorship I don’t think media shouldn’t be censor. Even when it comes to very problematic media that endured things like incest, racism, homophobia, sexist, and etc. why? Since it can be a learning example on why those things are wrong. For example those old racist movies and cartoons shouldn’t be censored instead it taught to people especially to younger children on why those things are wrong.
I can relate wants to cute ocs do most Montagne things get told censored my art over words or their appearance look like too young.
can i just say how crazy it is that my usual username is rotkaia and sometimes i go by rot and my persona also has white hair and red eyes LIKE WHAT
YES finally someone said it
half of the problems mentioned here could be solved if people actually appropriately tagged their art. I see shit on like ao3 that's just tagged as "dead dove do not eat" without... any indication of what the "dead dove" actually is. that is poor tagging. you have to tag exactly what it is so people can avoid it. You can't "don't like don't look" if there's no indication of what that could be.
I was super worried for the first couple minutes because I thought you were saying pedo art is ok💀
I was susprised at the first 5 minutes of the video. I didn't expect an art youtube outside of anime art or NSFW.
But where is disagree is animals, shota, and loli. The question is should they be illegal?
If it is illegal of course it shouldn't be posted but should it be illegal just because it is seen as disgusting? It is just fiction? If you find it disgusting people should move on.
I think that is what Japan does best. Creative freedom. The ironic thing is those who praise Japan for that complain when a conpany of person does what they don't like and not for sexualising people but for not sexualising women.
On the other hand, a popular manhua had been pressured by the government to censore things because it was bl. It wasn't even yaoi or all that sexual. I heard rumours that they wanted to move to Japan.
China also have many other laws and regulations for fiction that many people find disgusting but are harmless like homosexuality and feminine men.
This so much!
This might be a bit more off-topic -ish, but how do you feel about depicting mental illnesses in art that the creator of said art isn’t suffering from?
I think it's fine, though I'd recommend doing a lot of research and adding disclaimers. I'm someone with a lot of mental health issues/illnesses, but I don't have all of them and I still feel like it's important to represent others or to even explore things I don't have first hand experience with in my art. Overall, i just think it's fine and neat to write about other mental illnesses that the writer may not have, though being open to criticism and doing research is good. :]
Do you have a tutorial on hair i’m just really struggling with drawing hair :)
real, people CAN and should be allowed to write darker themes, i just think it becomes a gross real problem and should not exist when it comes to literal pedophilia, incest and other illegal shit similar). Romanticizing said topics like that is a real issue as it has been proven that some fiction that people write can influence and normalize behavior, which can lead to... lack for better words: a situation. (experience speaking, sadly)
when it comes to exploring it as a topic for a creative thing (i,e for story progress) then? yeah content warnings are appreciated but it's not like its gonna be the end of the world if i want to explore an abusive relationship where one of the characters within it still stays and believes that they can make it work, i have the right to write it. In Wings of Fire, an abusive relationship is between Clearsight and Darkstalker, and I think it was written tastefully, it felt real, sometimes absuvie relationships are like that.
if i want to write a hard scene where a character experiences a stressful moment and relieves it by self infliction, then yeah, i have the right to write that too (as someone who also experienced and been clean for 2 years now).
it's not black and white, there's a lot of gray area. And people tend to always ignore the various shades of gray.
Question! What's your opinion on people who don't take issue with stuff like self harm scars/injuries or depictions/descriptions of severe trauma and mental health issues being posted, but request that a content warning is put on it so that those who want to see it can have a look at it, and those who don't can disengage without having to see it first?
Because I see people be pretty 50/50 on this, with some saying that healed SH scars in particular should never require a warning when it's shown in art, while others think it's perfectly fine to post as long as that warning is present. So I was just curious what your take on that is.
Asking as someone who has dealt with SH myself btw, and is kind of torn on it, as I have seen people relapse due to it first hand, but who also has close friends who don't feel that they should have to hide a part of themselves for other peoples comfort, since it is a part of them and their past that they can't go back and change. So I just want an opinion from someone who has no reason to sugarcoat their reply and doesn't feel the need to agree with me because they know me.
I think that including a content warning is always a good idea. The way I do it is by including the content warnings in the tags of the post so that people who have filtered out the self-harm tag or whatever else can avoid it. :]
This debate makes so fucking mad, I'm really glad someone like you decided to cover it (especially since you're so good at wording yourself and always have based takes).
Everyone treats "romanticism" as such a bad, horrible thing when in reality, it really isn't.
When you look up the definition for "romanticize" you get: "deal with or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion; make (something) seem better or more appealing than it really is". Which is incredibly vague and just means that, as long as you make something seem at least slightly better than how it is in real life, it would be considered "romanticism", and we ALL do that, ALL the time.
If romanticism is always bad, no matter what, that would make things like joking about your trauma morally wrong. That's stupid.
Romanticization can become promotion, but the two aren't inherently connected.
I hate the "more moral than thou" attitude people have on the internet. People are constantly fighting amongst each other, trying to show how morally superior and "holy" they are.
The worst part is - most of the time, they actually invalidate others while doing so.
I have seen so many people say that drawing people self harming while smiling is bad because it "romanticizes self harm". Like, oh really? Because when I used to self harm, I would almost always do it when I was manic. Know what happens when you're manic? You smile and laugh a lot! How is it "romanticism" if it ACTUALLY happens in real life in that same manner?
One thing I'd like to correct you on though, is that proshipping doesn't necessarily mean "thinking every single thing ever should be allowed to be portrayed in any way without limitations". Most proshippers agree that some things should never be given permission to exist (like loli/shota hentai, for example), coming from someone in that community. We just believe harassing people over art is bad and stupid and that fiction isn't reality and shouldn't be held to the same standards as it.
Granted, some proshippers are really gross/have that stupid, black-and-white mentality, but those are just the loud mainority, most of us are really reasonable.
I realise not all proshippers are pro loli/shota, don't worry. ^^'' I've met quite a few of them that are just nice and normal people who have basically the same takes as me. I just don't really like the proshipper label itself because certain people who ARE pro loli-shota use it as well. But yeah, no judgement from me. :]
@rottika oh yeah, definitely. Some really gross people try to sneak into the community with their stupid bs. That's why it's important to always keep an eye out, just in case.
I do think you shouldn't use the term "proshitter" though, because it just makes people mad and fall deeper down the rabbit hole, you know? When you insult someone, it just makes them feel attacked and ignore all of your valid points and criticism. /lh /nm
@@Decay_of_braincells Fair criticism, thank you.👍
thats not how proshippers works, its not like it should or shouldnt exist (thats not something for you or anyone to decide, frankly), its more about us engaging with content or not. and before you say anything - i was there when the whole thing even started out. the only real limitations come from fiction with real people and/or hatespeech because those are directly harmful.
Just wanted to know what are you're thoughts on people from twitter calling artists who draws nsfw loli content pdfiles and get people to mass report them till they account is gone.
Since you mentioned lolis and shotas as an example of content that should be censored, I am curious on your opinion on it Rottika. I am also curious that if these were illegal or bad, how is there anime, even popular anime that has those characters? And what makes them different from small and petite anime characters that are adults since I have heard the word loli or shota also used to describe said characters?
When I said I think loli/shota is wrong, I am specifically referring to p0rnographic content with minors. Not adults who are small and/or just look younger than they are, but minors. P0rnographic images of children, whether real or fiction, is not okay, in my personal opinion. It's also illegal, even drawn, in certain countries (and states in the US as well). The reason why there was anime with lolis/shotas in them is because, well, it's anime and not p0rn and, because it's not explicit, it's not illegal in most countries. Lolicon/shotacon p0rnopgrahy was actually perfectly legal in Japan for a long time, hence why there is a lot of it, unfortunately. To my knowledge, it is now currently illegal to make drawn p0rn of minor characters and people there (and in the US) have been rightfully arrested for its possession.
I don't think that all work featuring child sexuality is wrong, of course, especially in the cases of stories like Lolita or Tideland where the work itself is not meant to titillate the viewer. It's just that when it's p0rn, meant to be seen as sexually appealing to a viewer, that it's wrong. That is my opinion on the matter.
@rottika I see, that clears things up for me, thank you for the insight Rottika.
@@spadesemerald9801 No problem. :]
@@rottika I disagree with that take there is nothing right about getting arrested for owning any fiction no matter what it does.
@@sugarzblossom8168 Funny you say that cause there is an actual law about it, if you expose it to either a minor or if it's unwanted it's considered immoral and illegal, so i think you should look into that law because they exist.
i agree
So characters who like they are being a burden to characters in a story actually become a burden to people on Twitter/X. Iconic that those people don't also promote bullying😂
Creating dark work is fine, what I DON'T think its OK with dark work is something like urban spook, who is literally profiting off of child grape art they made and also basing it off of a real person. If you support, or agree that how urban spook is making art- I DO think you need help. Because it's OK to make dark art, but how he did it, is gross and literally illegal and animal stuff.
Hey so I have a question what if somebody says that the internet is no place to vent your problems?
the internet is a place for literally everything lol, trying to police what people upload is impossible and crazy!! (even if it is something i’d personally dislike too)
You (nor anyone else, actually) do not get to decide what is appropriate nor inappropriate for someone else to do in their own space and on their own platforms. Frankly, I agree that venting online can sometimes be a bad decision, but censoring it because it offends or upsets you, silencing people who have nowhere else to go (not everyone can afford therapy and not everyone has people in their real life to talk to yk), and telling mentally ill people to just shut up because it discomforts you (or others) is ridiculous and inappropriate.
If you are upset by people venting through their art, then that's perfectly fine and valid! My channel and other platforms are just not the place for you.
@@rottikayou know what that checks out pretty reasonable dare I say correct
15:33 Oh yes, finally someone who brings up the whole “block button = you lose and you’re sensitive” thing. There is a reason the option to block exists, and it’s to not see stuff you don’t want to see. It’s to *block* people or things so you don’t have to accidentally come across them. No idea why everyone thinks it’s a better option to comment vile or dumb things on people they don’t vibe with.
I had an argument with a close friend relating to them defending proships.
Now, when I say "Pro ship" I mean incest ships, grooming ships and pedo ships, not toxic relationships between two unrelated adults ships.
They kept saying that people who make content like this are just "using it to cope through art'. I had to repeatedly tell them that:
A) you can express your "trauma" through art without making porn of it.
B) if it really was just to deal with personal trauma they wouldn't post it for others to see, they'd keep it to themselves.
I just wanted to say that most proshippers are just people who think pedo ships are cutesy and aren’t doing it to cope or to vent, they do it because they’re genuinely into that stuff and most antishippers are people who think that’s bad, if it was to vent or anything like that then it would be fine but that’s not the case with most proshippers and I’m not sure it’s very accurate to say that antishippers think that it should NEVER be depicted, I mean I’m sure plenty do but that’s usually not the case and antishippers go after those weirdos who like to see pedo ships because it’s gross and they want them to knock it off
ah, here it is, the lies of fancops.
no, thats not how proship think or what proshipping is. some proship might be into l0li/sh0ta for various reasons, doesnt mean all of them are. They just follow exact mantra of "dont like, dont look". Also you literally dont know any of these people, you have 0 info to judge them if they are survivors or not, nor are they obligated to inform you of that - and in my experience, a lot of them are, and your rhetoric is made to invalidate them because of your feelings.
And another lie - for antishippers, it NOT existing IS the point. Antishippers WANT censorship, complete (well, besides things they like - but then it ends up with antis just eating each other because wow, somebody from their group liked a ship spicier than marinara sauce, surely they now deserve to harm themselves), because they dont see art as valid way to cope or even just to explore theme in fiction, because in their idea its "no therapist would recommend this" and bazillion of "-lizations" that are nothing but somebody trying to moralize their squick. Like, no, its never been "they just should knock it off", never was.
can someone explain this stupid hypicricy thing here. I watch documentarys about those topics. I will go into the self harm topic, because i see it the moste there. Almost all of them show teens or children who are on tik tok or instagram who self harm. The stragnest thing is that tey all say the same that just looking ats self harm wounds/ scars indorces them to do it again and are even not allowed on the platform in itself. So here is my question. Why is it not ok in real life to show them because of indorcement and in art not ? Yes those were just pictures without captions if someone is going to ask that.
same goes for cp by the way. I do not understand why it is excusable when it is drawn but not when it is real. I am 24 if someone asks. I have problems with understanding why people do or say things diffrently just because the medium is diffrent. And yes cp in anime or drawn triggers me heavily, because i got sa'd as a child. I just want to understand those thoughts of people who think diffrently than me.
@@kittykat9691 I don't understand the first comment but for the second comment: Real CP involves real victims. Drawn CP doesn't unless someone puts a real person into the drawing.
@@D_YellowMadness ok. the first is mostly about people who harm themselfs with knifes etc. I am from germany were we have a lot of docus about diffrent topics. I had seen people excuse the self harm if it is drawn but saying it is harmful if they are real pictures of the same thing. It confuses me if people say one is ok while the other should not exist. And thanks for the explanation.
@@kittykat9691a real photo takes the time of hurting a person or a child, art is a drawing no matter what’s in it, it can be gross but don’t look at it. But a real photo is completely different and a drawing can be a way of people coping with thoughts, which thoughts are not actions.
@@D_YellowMadnessthe thing is there are groomers who absolutely use pro ship art to normalize exploitative/abusive relationships. You can’t censor all ship art, but you do have to be responsible.