CS Lewis: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies."
It isn't "fair" to give a spot in Harvard to someone who isn't prepared to be there. You are asking more than that person is ready to give and they will drop out having wasted their time and money on an endeavor they were not prepared for.
Did you also reject the Federal Reserve and the Banking Cartel set up in the early 1900's in America to enrich the well connected and powerful while enslaving a country to debts they can never pay while spitting on the poor?
I was at a fireside this summer where Elder Bednar talked about agency. He said that the only reason that we were given our agency was so we could choose to follow Jesus Christ. Any other choice we make is futile (my word). The fact that we needed to make that choice of our own free will, that Heavenly Father was willing to give us this earthly experience to help us make that decision. As an ordinance worker, I have been able to listen to the endowment ordinance many times and I have never gotten an idea that Lucifer, the son of the morning, was just to caring that he didn’t want to lose anyone. I think he just wanted power.
I agree with what you said completely 100%! He was jealous of his brother Jesus and wanted to have the glory of the Father without putting in the work to become like the Father. I don’t believe he cared one whit about anyone but himself and that is why he employs the false ideal of malevolent compassion and sells it to so many in our society. It is not because he cares about us-it is because he is jealous of Elohim and Jehovah and our gift of agency; and wants to strike back at them for their part in disallowing him to become a corrupt God.
@@jeaninem5297YES Satans “caring “ was an act to obtain power . He was pushing the “it isn’t fair “ philosophy. Anyone should be free to do ANYTHING and still return to the presence of Our Savior and Heavenly Parents . Most of the world still buys his lies .
There's a book that goes through all of this much better and in much greater detail. It's called "Earth, in the beginning" by Eric Skousen. It really explains the war in heaven in great detail. The book basically answers our three big questions in life for us and for the Earth. Where did we come from, why are we here, and where are we going after here.
"Compassion" was just the cover. If you are trying to convince spirits to support your plan, you must hide your selfish motives and convince them that your plan is really to benefit them (a total lie from the father of lies). It worked pretty well back then (1 out of 3) and is working even more effectively today. Don't be fooled by those who promote phony compassion.
I'm with GregBriggs on this one. Lucifer 'used' malevolent compassion as a cover story to hide what he really wanted... to be the Father without the work that it takes to be the Father. Give me thine honor was a direct challenge to the Father... " I'll save everyone, do better than you and take your job!' It was an attempt at a hostile takeover.
@kevinklippel6223 I agree. We can't paint Lucifer as "misguided". He KNEW his plan was wrong, but he fought to have it anyways. And his followers knew it as well.
The parable of the talents is the perfect example of how the Lord taught about disparity and judgement. The all started off with a different amount (disparity) but were judged fairly based on what they did with what they were given.
I have never heard the expression before malevolent compassion but it sure sounds like what some kids do to the elderly when they put them into a nursing home too early.
Also, Greg, Satan doesn't have to force if he says "do what you want, I will save you in your sins". It still destroys agency, as there is no consequence for sin.
This is one of the few times I will disagree with Greg, not on the subject where he is identifying the disparity of outcome as the motivating factor for Lucifer's proposal, on that he is correct. But I believe Lucifer's intent behind the proposal strips away all the pretense of his so called false compassion. In my opinion it is really hard for the every day person to fathom that there are people in the world and pre existence who have adopted evil and desire power. They see their relationships with their fellow man as only the means to advance themselves and they have a narcissi tic pride of self superiority. Lucifer exhibits this in spades. He saw the cost of the plan of agency and decided to exploit it for his own purposes. Hence his statement give me thine honor. Lucifer exposes his intent to use our trial of mortality only as the means to empower himself by handing exaltation out as freebie at the expense of our progress and the usurpation of the father and his position. In Gods plan he is eternally progressing because as we progress so does he. Lucifer's was entirely self serving. Coupled with the fact he then rebelled. I think we get the idea that Satan and his followers were cast down for simply proposing an alternative plan or having a different idea of how mortality should be conducted but he and his followers rebelled and refused to except the lords plan an attempted to implement their plan through force. As revelations say Michael and the angels fought against the devil and his angels fought. lucifer could have submitted to the will of the father but he didn't and instigated revolt which reveal's his true ambition in my opinion. There are types in mortality of this type of behavior as well. If one studies such people as Lenin , Marx, Mao, Mussolini, etc, one finds in their character an almost inner desire to exploit others for their own benefit. They claim to stand for the people they champion such as the workers but their personal writings show an open disdain and disgust for the very people they claim to represent and the roles they perform believing themselves superior and above such endeavors. they are merely tools to be used in pursuit of their goals regardless of the cost. Coupled with the fact Satan even now attempts to prevent us from gaining our exaltation shows his true malevolent demeanor the mantra of if I can't have it no one can.
When you deal personally with pathologically narcissistic people like this you can see this parallel, but I think Greg was on the money, too. He just left out the NPD as a motivating factor. If you haven’t experienced it personally, it’s difficult to believe that people that purposely evil exist.
Helena Blavatsky was a Theosophist who still has influence today that many do not know about. The Theosophists of today are VERY dangerous. The UN and IOC are not our friends and they worry me how much control they are getting in Utah.
Agree it was a simple calculus on his part. There is also a discussion here about what Satan is still fighting for. The primary assertion of "he wants everyone to be miserable like him" doesn't explain the long game.
I think the fact that Greg uses the term "malevolent compassion" indicates that he understands there is evil intent. It is not motivated by charity, as defined in the scriptures. I would also say that I think we should be careful not to label people with traits of NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) as evil. Some of them develop these traits in response to their own mistreatment or from modeling by their parents. It is not our place to judge where people will end up in the eternities, either. That is very shaky ground for us, even when considering dictators like those mentioned above who were responsible for millions of deaths. That being said, we should do what we can morally and legally in this life to prevent such people from coming to power.
👏🏻*standing 👏🏻 ovation*👏🏻 It’d be a wildly different world if people truly understood this concept and weren’t deceived by the parallel mistruths of today!
There was a great moment about this when John Dehlin and Hayden and Jackson Paul had a discussion and Dehlin presented this same thing and Hayden said you know who this sounds like and he said Korihor and then Hayden said no Satan😂. It was perfect.
Wrong. We don't produce disparity. Disparity is a natural consequence of existence. Some are tall, some are short, some are skinning, some are fat, some are smart, and some are not. This list of disparities are to long to list, and the vast majority of them are naturally inherent in the system God created. The idea that disparities are created by man opened the door to the idea that we could fix them. We can't. They are natural and inherent. We can only live with them
It is a technicality, but an important one. Enemies of freedom say the same thing, claiming it’s bad because it ‘produces’ all the ills in a free society. The reason I brought it up is that this thinking removes personal responsibility, which is contrary to agency and freedom.
Whatever Lucifer's motivation was, his plan would have prevented everyone, himself included, from being prepared to "receive all that the Father hath."
There are two ways to remove agency... 1) Remove ability to choose - force into lockstep, etc. robots. 2) Remove consequences. Remove the Judgement. Do what you want, and you still gain the reward. This holds forth to most the most idealic option. Both are used by the dark one.
Always appreciate your videos, but I have to say these type are my favorite. Just diving into the scriptures or words of living prophets and applying them directly to our day. You do great work, Greg. Thank you!
I am so happy about this subject because I feel we as Christians sometimes deem it necessary to take the agency from others by unintentionally enforcing certain laws into being .This is my fear for the promoters of 2025 which people are buying into innocently by hero worshipping certain leaders no matter their awful history. One has to tread very carefully. We need to follow the Prophet’s advice and prayerfully seek revelation with an open heart. God is LOVE.
The beauty of the true gospel is Christ also made it so not one soul is lost other than those who outright reject His gift of salvation. But by preserving agency, we have the opportunity to learn, grow and progress to one day fulfill the measure of our creation.
Greg, I completely agree with you! I think this has existed since the beginning. There is a talk by Elder Oaks where he says that “Satan’s Plan Ensured PERFECT EQUALITY”. When I read that I immediately thought of you and the things you discuss here. (I actually even made a video with some thoughts about it). Thanks for all you do!
“This becomes particularly important when it is realized that communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic- communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation-the very plan which we fought to uphold during “the war in heaven.” Up to now some members of the Church have stood aloof, feeling that the fight against socialistic-communism is “controversial” and unrelated to the mission of the Church or the work of the Lord.” David O McKay
Something that I have learned as I continue to grow in the gospel is that because Heavenly Father loves me perfectly He allows me to struggle and grow for that. I had a day where I was venting about a bad habit I wanted Him to just take and then I heard in my mind something along the lines of, "How would you learn to choose me if I just take it? I want YOU to willingly give me your all." The enemy would have us believe that growth is not needed and we should just be given whatever we want.
"No Child Left Behind" (Doesn't work.) "Take from the haves, give to the have nots." (Doesn't work.) Everyone is equal. (Except some are more equal than others.) I vote for the Father's plan! (It works.)
Greg, im several minutes in and i agree the devil doesnt like the disparity because of choices. I would suggest that Gods plan does save almost all and does provide fairness based on agency. The Telestial kingdom is a kingdom of salvation. Salvation from what and salvation how? Salvation from death, hell, and an endless torment only suffered by sons of perdition who didnt get bodies for rejecting the plan and the very few sons of perdition who did get bodies. I would suggest that Christs atonement is so powerful that, as Alma taught, "if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you." Something hardly touched on is the prophetic promises that wayward children will be restored to faithful parents and that includes children they've momentarily lost to even a Telestial state and who will remain in a Telestial kingdom until they decide to repent. And immediately the great plan of redemption will begin to work for them as they engage in the process of repentance which gift is the power God gave to the Savior to redeem. He is the Savior for all from mortal death but only becomes the Savior to those who enter repentance and persist through that developmental process that allows Christs grace to empower the repentant as they try, try, try a million, perhaps a billion times over. Maybe it appears to be an ugly process for Satan who perhaps out of jealousy doesnt have the faith in Christ necessary to allow his brother to Save him. A brother that perhaps he knew from the beginning as he watched the Savior become who he is. I find it incredibly loving for God to recognize how important it is to decide for ourselves. To decide our responses to unfairness in life, to feel angry and bitter, or full of forgiveness and joy. I am grateful for a process of learning by consequences that show me how my actions bring joy or sorrow. And then if my actions take me into paths of sorrow and darkness and i turn and walk back to light i rejoice in experience and the recognition of what brings joy vs misery. Its the tutoring that happens naturally in the realm of agency God provided. I have a hard time really believing Satan had empathy. And if he did at one point he lost it as he rejected faith, obedience, and Charity and instead embraced shallow sympathy until he was no longer sympathetic, feeding his ego, as he hardened his heart drop by drop of every time he rejected a chance to repent until he no longer wished to have repentance ever be an option. I think empathy, real empathy is born of and cultivated as one nurtures in themselves the gift of Charity
This segment is so enlightening and answers a lot of questions about what we see all around us. It also makes clear why we see so much virtue signaling on social media…Along with a need for “equity” always follows a need for glory!
@@Jeanie-nv7lo It is conceivable that he thought he could convince Heavenly Father to accept no consequences. No way could he convince him for us to do evil.
I enjoyed this discussion. As it relates to Adam and Eve’s choice, they needed to have a level of understanding where they could exercise their agency. I don’t believe Eve was beguiled in the sense we use the word today. Meaning tricked, fooled, hoodwinked. Instead, it would be more that she was enticed or charmed into making the choice. And it was because she came to understand her role as a mother and wife. Our First Presidency understood this. President Nelson in his conference talk Oct 93 seemed to think they did understand and she was not fooled or tricked (beguiled as we understand it today). The Book of Mormon translated the term as “enticed”. see Hel 6:26 and 2 Nephi 2. Pres Nelson: "That leads us to the fall of Adam. To bring the plan of happiness to fruition, God issued to Adam and Eve the first commandment ever given to mankind. It was a commandment to beget children. **A law was explained to them. Should they eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17), their bodies would change; mortality and eventual death would come upon them. But partaking of that fruit was prerequisite to their parenthood. ** While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change; blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created. ** Happily for them, “the Lord said unto Adam [and Eve]: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden” (Moses 6:53). We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. ** Adam was wise enough to do likewise. Accordingly, we could speak of the fall of Adam in terms of a mortal creation, because “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25)." But that quote is from a long time ago for him, maybe he's changed his thinking? Recently... “For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. **I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam. “ ** (Pres Nelson quoting Pres Eyring Oct 2018) “As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve-with her far-reaching vision of our Heavenly Father’s plan-who initiated what we call ‘‘the Fall.” ** Her wise and courageous choice and Adam’s supporting decision moved God’s plan of happiness forward.** They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did premortally.” Pres Nelson Oct 2018] Notice that Eve led with her agency and Adam supported. And then there was Elder OAKS hearkening back to Pres Nelson: (we are taught in the temple "these things are best understood by revelation) : "As Elder Dallin H. Oaks, an apostle of the LDS Church, has said, “Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! **Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall.” ** President Henry B. Eyring has expressed, “[Eve] helped her family see the path home when the way ahead seemed hard . . . You have her example to follow. By revelation, Eve recognized the way home to God.”
And she and all covenant keeping women are declared "clean - every whit" in the temple, while men are invited to "become clean from the blood and sins of this generation". Certainly the devil "enticed her" because he wanted to get things going and was doing that which had been done in other worlds. Yet it appears here that she did not sin, nor did she make the choice because she was beguiled as we use the word today (fooled or tricked) but because she came to the knowledge of what needed to be done - thru revelation - and had the courage to do it (agency). And I can only imagine that she understood not only the effect on her personally but ALL WOMEN. As the *Mother of All Living*, her transgression, for which she has been forgiven, was a fully understood choice, for which we honor her and refer to her by this title.
I agree, Greg. Lucifer portrayed Heavenly Father's plan as unfair. How can a loving God have a plan where some of His children would not make it back? Lucifer proposed that he would bring everyone back, thus making him more compassionate than God (I don't think he actually had compassion for anyone; that's just how he was selling it and getting people to side with him). "Equity" is indeed Satan's plan. As Greg has outlined many times before, we see people today who have placed compassion as the highest value above all others, placing the second great commandment above the first. I highly recommend Greg Wright's book "Satan's War on Free Agency." After reading it, I'm inclined to think that Satan's plan isn't so much about force as it is about removing accountability from our choices. Either way, it comes down to equity of outcome.
I'm so glad I stumbled across this video. I've had similar thoughts for several years. The recent thrust for total "equity"--and all the things that come with it--finally helped me begin to understand why so many of God's children would choose Lucifer in the pre-mortal realms. It's not about wanting to be enslaved, it's about believing that Lucifer's plan was the only truly "fair" plan. It lacked the understanding of God's perspective, and the faith that God's plan was, actually better overall, despite the differences in outcomes. Thank you for sharing this.
In most case scenarios, I think it is a good idea to hear more than one plan. Where lucifer failed was trying to take away our ability to have agency. The plan sounds good until you look at the nity gritty details of what that will really look like. It reminds of the movie Pinocchio, where the island sounds like a good idea and a fun place to be, but the price is that you have to be a donkey 🫏 forever. Im grateful for my savior who sacrificed everything for all of us
After reading the book Satan‘s war on free agency by Greg Wright, I feel like Satan did not want to force us to obey because that would not require a Redeemer but rather he was saying there would be no consequences for sin and just do what you want and you’ll be saved just like meand others suggested in the Scriptures, which is a much more compelling debate and that the leftist use today as well. I believe The Heard you talk about a carrot and a stick with this argument.
I get the sense that, inside, Lucifer was dating to himself that the Father was an unwise father and did not deserve the title because he wouldn't save and exalt all his children.
D&C 93:25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning. Satan lied "from the beginning", the counsel. He knew what he was saying was wrong and that what he really wanted was the glory of God. He used the empathy of his siblings to deceive them so they would try and force God to give up our agency so he could get God's glory. He wasn't compassionate, but he used other's compassion to against them.
Lucifer seeks to get gain by offering what a person wants most. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father's glory. He offered Heavenly Father, or rather tempted him, with what Heavenly Father wanted most...for us all to return. I suspect there is more to it, but that is the basis in my mind.
May I suggest? When satan said “give me thine honor” he was also seeking the Father’s honor that the Father had acquired “trodding the wine press alone” on a previous earth. Such was impossible. It was impossible for satan to receive the Father’s honor through merely circumventing such an eternally-recognized plan, an eternal plan recognized and appreciated and loved by all intelligences living an “eternal existence”.
A sinful agency driven choice filled life fe is more God-like and better than a sinless choice-less undecided free of making decisions kind of an existence. This means that I rather choose even if that means I make bad or wrong choices. No choice is worse than being a sinner.
I have heard long ago that Satan didn't care about the souls, he just wanted the power. Eventually everyone would have failed because even in the pre earth life we were imperfect. We could have just made a small, seemingly insignificant mistake and spent eternity in outer darkness.
I personally believe that Satan's biggest problem is one that we face in the church today, he thought Heavenly Father could do anything with impunity. But even Heavenly Father has to follow the laws of the universe and work in harmony with it. When I understood that, it made everything else make sense. For instance, God doesn't make rules because he hates gay people, but the universal laws will not hold that relationship together for eternity and He knows that, so he commands us not to do something that will go away.
What are your thoughts on the idea that Satan wanted to take away our agency by removing the law all together, thus it wouldn't matter what you did, because there is no right or wrong? I see a lot of people arguing this idea today along with the idea that one must be forced to do right, so i wonder which Satan truly wanted to do? They both seem like a way for us to not reach our potential
I think we're in error if we assume that Lucifer was always evil. We know from scripture that he fell. I think he fell from a state of righteousness to evil. I think if he had always been evil he would have never gained the following he did.
Without the option to fail you cannot succeed. Without the option to hate you cannot love. The choice is the test and without the test we are all lost.
I kind of think "equity of outcome" was just his sales pitch, when his goal was full control and glory when his plan did better than the Father's. Just like today, people pushing for "equality" really just want control.
Wow. Brilliant! I always wondered how it was possible for Lucifer to rebel against our Father and Christ after having been in their presence for so long. Surely he would have felt of their love, compassion, and mercy. How could he fight against that? Toxic empathy makes sense. And perhaps there was pride and jealousy in there too.
I do wish people would quit referring to agency as choice alone. Agency is knowledge of good and evil, the ability to choose one or the other, the capacity to ACT and being subject to the consequences. The Lord created things to act and things to be acted upon and this is the agency of man, the capacity to act. D&C 93.30-31. Accountability for actions and thought which is also an act. We need to be concerned about accountability more than choices. Do it. Do it right.
I believe his plan was rejected because what he proposed was completely unworkable. Once free will is removed there is no longer a path for spiritual growth that could lead to Exaltation. I think a third of the host of heaven fell for this unworkable scheme because Lucifer proposed saving everyone despite personal effort. Christ stepped in to support the Father's plan that protected our freedom to choose and by offering to become the Savior the Father's plan was then made doable for us, but only if we freely decided to follow that plan. Lucifers plan was doomed to failure because of removing free will and his underlying motive was himself, not others.
I agree with some of what you say--even so, I think there was another dimension to the adversary's goals having to do with his own aggrandizement. He was one of the "noble and great ones" and perhaps arrived to that level of existence through some kind of unaccountable process or creation as alluded to in Abraham 3. And so what happens when the Father presents his plan is that he doesn't want to given up his position--he wants to preserve the old pecking order so to speak rather than allow some average joe, like me, in a smelly T-shirt access to a process of enlargement that would place me on the same plain of governance as himself. That said, I think where his egalitarian plan comes into play--and I learned this from a really smart blogger--is that he uses it propagandistically to sling mud on the Savior's approach--though he really didn't care at all about where people landed so long as he was the top dog. And I'm guessing that, much like the kingmen in the book of Mormon, he made many promises to other "noble and great ones" (or people of "high birth") that they would be placed in positions of power so long as they supported his ascent to the throne. Nasty stuff.
I think there is a significant misunderstanding of this scripture. In the LDS culture we have appear to think that God's plan does NOT redeem everyone. That is a false notion! Under the great Plan of Happiness who is not redeemed from death and hell? No body! EVERYONE is redeemed from death and hell because of Jesus Christ's resurrection. ALL are resurrected to a degree of glory or a degree of joy. It was not Satan's plan to redeem ALL and God's plan to redeem SOME. It was God's plan to redeem ALL!
The Plan of Salvation, the Council in Heaven, and the War in Heaven contain within them more than we can presently imagine. Salvation is free, but exaltation is earned.
We can only become a zion people by freely choosing the path of righteousness on our own, zion can not be forced on us because force does not internally change who we are. I believe that is the real failure of Satan's plan- using some type of force to ensure we become "zion" and that is an unworkable scheme. Our Heavenly Father rejected Lucifer because his proposal was completely unworkable.
Perhaps the lower kingdoms are where people are because they do not want to give up their favorite sins. Where they can continue in that behavior. If it were not so wouldn't they repent and progress?
I will make only one point here. I think that Lucifer may want equal out come for all. But, I also think that in the end he desires himself to be exalted above everyone. We see this in the ideologies of today.
You should go watch rings of power lord if the rings. The producer is LDS and he has turned surauman into the Devil. It has been fantastic! Worth the watch IMO
10:00 is it the plan of salvation or the plan of exaltation? "If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation."
Yeah. I believe in this as well. He knew he would forget pre-earth life just like we all do. And he's thinking... yeah I don't know about this, Heavenly Father.
I have been thinking a lot lately about Lucifer/Satan and the choices he made. That being said I question the idea that whenever we do something wrong it is because Satan tempted us. I disagree with the idea that Satan puts the idea into our head. We were not perfect in the preexistence and had to learn how to become perfect like our Father. I am sure we were nowhere close to being like Christ. We came here to learn to become better. We will sin and make mistakes. I don't think we can blame every sin or mistake on Satan. (If we can blame everything we do wrong on Satan why do we need to repent? It is Satan's fault right. We didn't do it!) Is Satan evil? Yes, but does he make us sin? I think that we make choices because we are weak and imperfect. Good/Evil have existed before we became spirit sons and daughters of God. We each had a level of knowledge, but we were still imperfect. Satan is here and takes power when we give him power. WE CHOOSE TO GIVE OUR WILL OVER TO THE ADVERSARY!!
Yes he makes us sin in a sense he feeds the Ego withinevery person. This Ego is our pride our lust our evil. Like not to be dirty "Sex" is pleasurable but God has a set standard for it now this standard is like a two way road out in a flat land. If we follow God with the standard we stay in our lane while the Devil encourages us to left or further right into the dirt or do a donut or what ever. Now those can be fun but those can also be dangerous like we could accidently hit another car or swerve off the road like if we have casual sex it can increase the chances of STDs and HIV and so on. Yes you feel pleasure regardless but only one way keeps us safe the other is more thrilling but also way more dangerous. We have the freedom to choose in the end of the day knowing right from wrong but the Devil feeds on that ego causing us to sin. Tempting us to do things more and more dangerous then before thats why sex addicts end up doing tam stuff at first and then go crazy because they are never full and always craving more. While God doesn't tempt us he only feeds fully when when we do good.
Satan never cared about anyone except himself he was very good at checking boxes so when the plan was presented and a veil would be in place and we wouldn’t remember he had a problem he knew he would fail because his motivation was selfish and himself so he proposed another plan with no consequences for sin that was his plan you see that being played out today
With regard to headline that said "what turned Lucifer" may I ask this question. What did Lucifer mean when he told Heavenly Father that the reason he gave Adama and Eve the fruit was "to do what had been done in other worlds" to other similar people/children of God? It made it sound like he did not expect to be cursed.
if Satan's rebellion is part of this worlds creation who functioned as opposition for the numberless worlds created before ours? thank you for being there and doing what you do.
My understanding - Lucifer didn’t want us to have Agency. He didn’t say that he didn’t want Agency for himself. “I will do it and I will get the glory.” He wanted to be above all. He wanted to make it easy for himself and unobtainable for all of us. One him and all of us would be his servants. We would not progress. The only way we become like God is The Only Way. There is no shortcut. I have to learn - through Agency - what is required - and let go of what a goddess is Not - and Become a Goddess - literally - before I can Be worthy of That Eternal title. - great video
He wanted to redeem and save us without having an Atonement. He did not want any requirements. Elder Oaks said we knew beginning to end in the premortal life. We saw all the innocent babies dying and all the evil contained in the seven seals where plagues and war plagued humanity. God wanted equality as well but it had to be through Christ.
I like to think that these ideas were floating around. Avoiding risk Escaping painful things at all costs Distrust of a Savior to help and guide Not willing to experience life anew if it means forgetting all. Fear, doubt, and unbelief. I believe the devil championed these things.
The only way for there to NOT be disparity is if we all choose exactly the same…. Alma 48:17 “Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.”
“for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power”. Honor is God’s power. The intelligences of the universe honor God by following his command (just as a soldier honors a General by follow commands) This is what Lucifer wanted to bring about his plan, with that honor he could command the intelligences, but fortunately, that’s not how it works as justice must be met or honor is lost. This is how God can cease to be God.
I'm not sure that Lucifer could force anyone to do anything. Further, I doubt that Lucifer would force people to do Good. I believe that agency would be destroyed by moral relativism, meaning Lucifer's idea was that there would be no Good or Evil.
Lucifer's plan was one of subjection and nomination. He sought to have the throne of God. That is what is meant by "Give me Thine honor." Lucifer sought to bring everyone in subjection to himself, including Jehovah and Elohim. Elohim, because Lucifer wanted his honor or his power and Glory, and Jehovah because he would have been born in the flesh and subjects to Lucifer. Lucifer may have played upon the compassion of those spirits who followed him, but he had no compassion himself. Like all tyrants, he sought to make everyone equally miserable under himself.
CS Lewis: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies."
It isn't "fair" to give a spot in Harvard to someone who isn't prepared to be there. You are asking more than that person is ready to give and they will drop out having wasted their time and money on an endeavor they were not prepared for.
As my husband says about Socialism/Marxism/Communism, I have heard this plan before... I rejected it before. 🤔
Did you also reject the Federal Reserve and the Banking Cartel set up in the early 1900's in America to enrich the well connected and powerful while enslaving a country to debts they can never pay while spitting on the poor?
Unusual, I know 😊, but your husband's right. So's Greg!
We lived through socialism in the USSR, saw it first hand, it doesn't work.
All these -ism's are actually Satanism.
Amen
I was at a fireside this summer where Elder Bednar talked about agency. He said that the only reason that we were given our agency was so we could choose to follow Jesus Christ. Any other choice we make is futile (my word). The fact that we needed to make that choice of our own free will, that Heavenly Father was willing to give us this earthly experience to help us make that decision. As an ordinance worker, I have been able to listen to the endowment ordinance many times and I have never gotten an idea that Lucifer, the son of the morning, was just to caring that he didn’t want to lose anyone. I think he just wanted power.
I agree with what you said completely 100%! He was jealous of his brother Jesus and wanted to have the glory of the Father without putting in the work to become like the Father. I don’t believe he cared one whit about anyone but himself and that is why he employs the false ideal of malevolent compassion and sells it to so many in our society. It is not because he cares about us-it is because he is jealous of Elohim and Jehovah and our gift of agency; and wants to strike back at them for their part in disallowing him to become a corrupt God.
@@jeaninem5297YES Satans “caring “ was an act to obtain power . He was pushing the “it isn’t fair “ philosophy. Anyone should be free to do ANYTHING and still return to the presence of Our Savior and Heavenly Parents . Most of the world still buys his lies .
There's a book that goes through all of this much better and in much greater detail. It's called "Earth, in the beginning" by Eric Skousen. It really explains the war in heaven in great detail. The book basically answers our three big questions in life for us and for the Earth. Where did we come from, why are we here, and where are we going after here.
"Compassion" was just the cover. If you are trying to convince spirits to support your plan, you must hide your selfish motives and convince them that your plan is really to benefit them (a total lie from the father of lies).
It worked pretty well back then (1 out of 3) and is working even more effectively today. Don't be fooled by those who promote phony compassion.
I agree! Satan just wanted power. If he truly cared about everyone he would have wanted Gods plan. Lucifer is woke ideology.
I'm with GregBriggs on this one. Lucifer 'used' malevolent compassion as a cover story to hide what he really wanted... to be the Father without the work that it takes to be the Father. Give me thine honor was a direct challenge to the Father... " I'll save everyone, do better than you and take your job!' It was an attempt at a hostile takeover.
@kevinklippel6223 I agree. We can't paint Lucifer as "misguided". He KNEW his plan was wrong, but he fought to have it anyways. And his followers knew it as well.
Completely agree, Satan was a deceiver and a usurper from the beginning, he had no intention of honoring his pitch of equality...
"Malevolent compassion" 100%
It's what Lucifer peddled, not what he had. Lucifer was a liar from the beginning. He was just wanting to steal the throne and do things his own way.
@@noskalborg723, the Golden Ring, Power
He was able to draw 30% away with him. I see the same thing playing out here. We need to stay strong.
and he’s taking more than a few from our chirch
He's getting those he almost got the first time.
The parable of the talents is the perfect example of how the Lord taught about disparity and judgement. The all started off with a different amount (disparity) but were judged fairly based on what they did with what they were given.
People that want equity want equity without consequences or personal accountability. This is exactly what Satan was proposing.
I have never heard the expression before malevolent compassion but it sure sounds like what some kids do to the elderly when they put them into a nursing home too early.
Also, Greg, Satan doesn't have to force if he says "do what you want, I will save you in your sins". It still destroys agency, as there is no consequence for sin.
Lucifer, the prototype for virtue signalers.
@@sl8862 yup. He had no compassion. It was all a lie
This is one of the few times I will disagree with Greg, not on the subject where he is identifying the disparity of outcome as the motivating factor for Lucifer's proposal, on that he is correct. But I believe Lucifer's intent behind the proposal strips away all the pretense of his so called false compassion. In my opinion it is really hard for the every day person to fathom that there are people in the world and pre existence who have adopted evil and desire power. They see their relationships with their fellow man as only the means to advance themselves and they have a narcissi tic pride of self superiority. Lucifer exhibits this in spades. He saw the cost of the plan of agency and decided to exploit it for his own purposes. Hence his statement give me thine honor. Lucifer exposes his intent to use our trial of mortality only as the means to empower himself by handing exaltation out as freebie at the expense of our progress and the usurpation of the father and his position. In Gods plan he is eternally progressing because as we progress so does he. Lucifer's was entirely self serving. Coupled with the fact he then rebelled. I think we get the idea that Satan and his followers were cast down for simply proposing an alternative plan or having a different idea of how mortality should be conducted but he and his followers rebelled and refused to except the lords plan an attempted to implement their plan through force. As revelations say Michael and the angels fought against the devil and his angels fought.
lucifer could have submitted to the will of the father but he didn't and instigated revolt which reveal's his true ambition in my opinion. There are types in mortality of this type of behavior as well. If one studies such people as Lenin , Marx, Mao, Mussolini, etc, one finds in their character an almost inner desire to exploit others for their own benefit. They claim to stand for the people they champion such as the workers but their personal writings show an open disdain and disgust for the very people they claim to represent and the roles they perform believing themselves superior and above such endeavors. they are merely tools to be used in pursuit of their goals regardless of the cost. Coupled with the fact Satan even now attempts to prevent us from gaining our exaltation shows his true malevolent demeanor the mantra of if I can't have it no one can.
Amazing view. And said so clearly. Wether it is true or not I do know. But I have never had it said so clearly. Thank you.
When you deal personally with pathologically narcissistic people like this you can see this parallel, but I think Greg was on the money, too.
He just left out the NPD as a motivating factor.
If you haven’t experienced it personally, it’s difficult to believe that people that purposely evil exist.
Helena Blavatsky was a Theosophist who still has influence today that many do not know about. The Theosophists of today are VERY dangerous. The UN and IOC are not our friends and they worry me how much control they are getting in Utah.
Agree it was a simple calculus on his part. There is also a discussion here about what Satan is still fighting for. The primary assertion of "he wants everyone to be miserable like him" doesn't explain the long game.
I think the fact that Greg uses the term "malevolent compassion" indicates that he understands there is evil intent. It is not motivated by charity, as defined in the scriptures.
I would also say that I think we should be careful not to label people with traits of NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) as evil. Some of them develop these traits in response to their own mistreatment or from modeling by their parents. It is not our place to judge where people will end up in the eternities, either. That is very shaky ground for us, even when considering dictators like those mentioned above who were responsible for millions of deaths. That being said, we should do what we can morally and legally in this life to prevent such people from coming to power.
👏🏻*standing 👏🏻 ovation*👏🏻
It’d be a wildly different world if people truly understood this concept and weren’t deceived by the parallel mistruths of today!
There was a great moment about this when John Dehlin and Hayden and Jackson Paul had a discussion and Dehlin presented this same thing and Hayden said you know who this sounds like and he said Korihor and then Hayden said no Satan😂. It was perfect.
One correction to something you said - the plan does not ‘produce’ disparity of outcome. It “allows” it to be produced by us.
I am sure this is true.
Since disparity of outcome is naturally factored in to any plan involving ‘free agency,’ it can be said either way; it both produces and allows it.
Wrong. We don't produce disparity. Disparity is a natural consequence of existence.
Some are tall, some are short, some are skinning, some are fat, some are smart, and some are not. This list of disparities are to long to list, and the vast majority of them are naturally inherent in the system God created.
The idea that disparities are created by man opened the door to the idea that we could fix them. We can't. They are natural and inherent. We can only live with them
It is a technicality, but an important one. Enemies of freedom say the same thing, claiming it’s bad because it ‘produces’ all the ills in a free society. The reason I brought it up is that this thinking removes personal responsibility, which is contrary to agency and freedom.
And personal responsibility is CORE to choosing to become like Jesus Christ, to become celestial.
Whatever Lucifer's motivation was, his plan would have prevented everyone, himself included, from being prepared to "receive all that the Father hath."
There are two ways to remove agency...
1) Remove ability to choose - force into lockstep, etc. robots.
2) Remove consequences. Remove the Judgement. Do what you want, and you still gain the reward. This holds forth to most the most idealic option.
Both are used by the dark one.
Always appreciate your videos, but I have to say these type are my favorite. Just diving into the scriptures or words of living prophets and applying them directly to our day. You do great work, Greg. Thank you!
Satan doesn't want to redeem all, he wants to save them "in their sins"
I am so happy about this subject because I feel we as Christians sometimes deem it necessary to take the agency from others by unintentionally enforcing certain laws into being .This is my fear for the promoters of 2025 which people are buying into innocently by hero worshipping certain leaders no matter their awful history. One has to tread very carefully. We need to follow the Prophet’s advice and prayerfully seek revelation with an open heart.
God is LOVE.
The beauty of the true gospel is Christ also made it so not one soul is lost other than those who outright reject His gift of salvation. But by preserving agency, we have the opportunity to learn, grow and progress to one day fulfill the measure of our creation.
Brilliant and crystal clear, Greg.
Excellent, clear insight. Thank you Greg
Greg, I completely agree with you! I think this has existed since the beginning.
There is a talk by Elder Oaks where he says that “Satan’s Plan Ensured PERFECT EQUALITY”. When I read that I immediately thought of you and the things you discuss here.
(I actually even made a video with some thoughts about it).
Thanks for all you do!
“This becomes particularly important when it is realized that communism is turning out to be the earthly image of the plan which Satan presented in the pre-existence. The whole program of socialistic- communism is essentially a war against God and the plan of salvation-the very plan which we fought to uphold during “the war in heaven.”
Up to now some members of the Church have stood aloof, feeling that the fight against socialistic-communism is “controversial” and unrelated to the mission of the Church or the work of the Lord.”
David O McKay
Yes, Communism is Anti-Christ. Capitalism is also terrible and not the way God wants His people to deal with each other.
Thanks for nailing this down so well 🎉
Untethered empathy is rooted in the Bigotry of Low Expectations.
Something that I have learned as I continue to grow in the gospel is that because Heavenly Father loves me perfectly He allows me to struggle and grow for that. I had a day where I was venting about a bad habit I wanted Him to just take and then I heard in my mind something along the lines of, "How would you learn to choose me if I just take it? I want YOU to willingly give me your all." The enemy would have us believe that growth is not needed and we should just be given whatever we want.
@@dominickbiggs7462 , Yes!
Jesus takes us where he finds us, but he doesn't leave us there .
It about Growth.
"No Child Left Behind" (Doesn't work.) "Take from the haves, give to the have nots." (Doesn't work.) Everyone is equal. (Except some are more equal than others.)
I vote for the Father's plan! (It works.)
I have often said: I voted against this nonsense before, I'll be damned (literally) if I change my vote now.
This is so good…thank you for always making me THINK and learn new perspectives.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Greg, im several minutes in and i agree the devil doesnt like the disparity because of choices. I would suggest that Gods plan does save almost all and does provide fairness based on agency.
The Telestial kingdom is a kingdom of salvation. Salvation from what and salvation how? Salvation from death, hell, and an endless torment only suffered by sons of perdition who didnt get bodies for rejecting the plan and the very few sons of perdition who did get bodies. I would suggest that Christs atonement is so powerful that, as Alma taught, "if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you." Something hardly touched on is the prophetic promises that wayward children will be restored to faithful parents and that includes children they've momentarily lost to even a Telestial state and who will remain in a Telestial kingdom until they decide to repent. And immediately the great plan of redemption will begin to work for them as they engage in the process of repentance which gift is the power God gave to the Savior to redeem. He is the Savior for all from mortal death but only becomes the Savior to those who enter repentance and persist through that developmental process that allows Christs grace to empower the repentant as they try, try, try a million, perhaps a billion times over.
Maybe it appears to be an ugly process for Satan who perhaps out of jealousy doesnt have the faith in Christ necessary to allow his brother to Save him. A brother that perhaps he knew from the beginning as he watched the Savior become who he is.
I find it incredibly loving for God to recognize how important it is to decide for ourselves. To decide our responses to unfairness in life, to feel angry and bitter, or full of forgiveness and joy. I am grateful for a process of learning by consequences that show me how my actions bring joy or sorrow. And then if my actions take me into paths of sorrow and darkness and i turn and walk back to light i rejoice in experience and the recognition of what brings joy vs misery. Its the tutoring that happens naturally in the realm of agency God provided. I have a hard time really believing Satan had empathy. And if he did at one point he lost it as he rejected faith, obedience, and Charity and instead embraced shallow sympathy until he was no longer sympathetic, feeding his ego, as he hardened his heart drop by drop of every time he rejected a chance to repent until he no longer wished to have repentance ever be an option.
I think empathy, real empathy is born of and cultivated as one nurtures in themselves the gift of Charity
This segment is so enlightening and answers a lot of questions about what we see all around us. It also makes clear why we see so much virtue signaling on social media…Along with a need for “equity” always follows a need for glory!
I still think "Forcing to do good" was likely never his plan. But rather "freedom" to live without consequences.
@@Jeanie-nv7lo It is conceivable that he thought he could convince Heavenly Father to accept no consequences. No way could he convince him for us to do evil.
I agree. Satan says in Moses 4:1 the he will redeem all mankind. If we were forced to do only good, would we need redeemed?
Excellent presentation
I enjoyed this discussion. As it relates to Adam and Eve’s choice, they needed to have a level of understanding where they could exercise their agency. I don’t believe Eve was beguiled in the sense we use the word today. Meaning tricked, fooled, hoodwinked. Instead, it would be more that she was enticed or charmed into making the choice. And it was because she came to understand her role as a mother and wife.
Our First Presidency understood this. President Nelson in his conference talk Oct 93 seemed to think they did understand and she was not fooled or tricked (beguiled as we understand it today). The Book of Mormon translated the term as “enticed”. see Hel 6:26 and 2 Nephi 2.
Pres Nelson: "That leads us to the fall of Adam. To bring the plan of happiness to fruition, God issued to Adam and Eve the first commandment ever given to mankind. It was a commandment to beget children. **A law was explained to them. Should they eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17), their bodies would change; mortality and eventual death would come upon them. But partaking of that fruit was prerequisite to their parenthood. ** While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change; blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created. ** Happily for them, “the Lord said unto Adam [and Eve]: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden” (Moses 6:53). We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. ** Adam was wise enough to do likewise. Accordingly, we could speak of the fall of Adam in terms of a mortal creation, because “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25)."
But that quote is from a long time ago for him, maybe he's changed his thinking? Recently...
“For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. **I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam. “ ** (Pres Nelson quoting Pres Eyring Oct 2018) “As President Eyring pointed out, it was our glorious Mother Eve-with her far-reaching vision of our Heavenly Father’s plan-who initiated what we call ‘‘the Fall.” ** Her wise and courageous choice and Adam’s supporting decision moved God’s plan of happiness forward.** They made it possible for each of us to come to earth, receive a body, and prove that we would choose to stand up for Jesus Christ now, just as we did premortally.” Pres Nelson Oct 2018]
Notice that Eve led with her agency and Adam supported.
And then there was Elder OAKS hearkening back to Pres Nelson: (we are taught in the temple "these things are best understood by revelation) :
"As Elder Dallin H. Oaks, an apostle of the LDS Church, has said, “Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! **Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall.” ** President Henry B. Eyring has expressed, “[Eve] helped her family see the path home when the way ahead seemed hard . . . You have her example to follow. By revelation, Eve recognized the way home to God.”
And she and all covenant keeping women are declared "clean - every whit" in the temple, while men are invited to "become clean from the blood and sins of this generation". Certainly the devil "enticed her" because he wanted to get things going and was doing that which had been done in other worlds. Yet it appears here that she did not sin, nor did she make the choice because she was beguiled as we use the word today (fooled or tricked) but because she came to the knowledge of what needed to be done - thru revelation - and had the courage to do it (agency). And I can only imagine that she understood not only the effect on her personally but ALL WOMEN. As the *Mother of All Living*, her transgression, for which she has been forgiven, was a fully understood choice, for which we honor her and refer to her by this title.
I agree, Greg. Lucifer portrayed Heavenly Father's plan as unfair. How can a loving God have a plan where some of His children would not make it back? Lucifer proposed that he would bring everyone back, thus making him more compassionate than God (I don't think he actually had compassion for anyone; that's just how he was selling it and getting people to side with him). "Equity" is indeed Satan's plan. As Greg has outlined many times before, we see people today who have placed compassion as the highest value above all others, placing the second great commandment above the first.
I highly recommend Greg Wright's book "Satan's War on Free Agency." After reading it, I'm inclined to think that Satan's plan isn't so much about force as it is about removing accountability from our choices. Either way, it comes down to equity of outcome.
Absolutely eye opening. Thank you for that.
Love your insight on this subject. Such a connection in our day.
I'm so glad I stumbled across this video. I've had similar thoughts for several years. The recent thrust for total "equity"--and all the things that come with it--finally helped me begin to understand why so many of God's children would choose Lucifer in the pre-mortal realms. It's not about wanting to be enslaved, it's about believing that Lucifer's plan was the only truly "fair" plan. It lacked the understanding of God's perspective, and the faith that God's plan was, actually better overall, despite the differences in outcomes.
Thank you for sharing this.
Makes perfect sense. Thank you Greg!
It's not only the disparity. It's the misunderstanding that you get to choose which disparity you get. AGENCY!!
I agree with Greggbriggs. The enemy was using the welfare of others as his excuse for his own promotion - and in this case the ultimate promotion.
Amen Greg
“Equitable treatment means we all end up at the same place.” -Kamala Harris.
In most case scenarios, I think it is a good idea to hear more than one plan. Where lucifer failed was trying to take away our ability to have agency. The plan sounds good until you look at the nity gritty details of what that will really look like.
It reminds of the movie Pinocchio, where the island sounds like a good idea and a fun place to be, but the price is that you have to be a donkey 🫏 forever.
Im grateful for my savior who sacrificed everything for all of us
Wonderful. Thank you?
You're welcome.
This makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure how I didn’t notice before.
After reading the book Satan‘s war on free agency by Greg Wright, I feel like Satan did not want to force us to obey because that would not require a Redeemer but rather he was saying there would be no consequences for sin and just do what you want and you’ll be saved just like meand others suggested in the Scriptures, which is a much more compelling debate and that the leftist use today as well. I believe The Heard you talk about a carrot and a stick with this argument.
Excellent observation, thanks for putting this into words I've been trying to articulate for years-
I get the sense that, inside, Lucifer was dating to himself that the Father was an unwise father and did not deserve the title because he wouldn't save and exalt all his children.
D&C 93:25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
Satan lied "from the beginning", the counsel. He knew what he was saying was wrong and that what he really wanted was the glory of God. He used the empathy of his siblings to deceive them so they would try and force God to give up our agency so he could get God's glory. He wasn't compassionate, but he used other's compassion to against them.
Excellent!
Lucifer seeks to get gain by offering what a person wants most. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father's glory. He offered Heavenly Father, or rather tempted him, with what Heavenly Father wanted most...for us all to return. I suspect there is more to it, but that is the basis in my mind.
May I suggest? When satan said “give me thine honor” he was also seeking the Father’s honor that the Father had acquired “trodding the wine press alone” on a previous earth. Such was impossible. It was impossible for satan to receive the Father’s honor through merely circumventing such an eternally-recognized plan, an eternal plan recognized and appreciated and loved by all intelligences living an “eternal existence”.
Skousen talks about this concept in his lecture “my search for the meaning of The Atonement”. I agree with this 💯
Great insight. He's telling the same story now that he did in the pre-existence.
Well said!!
A sinful agency driven choice filled life fe is more God-like and better than a sinless choice-less undecided free of making decisions kind of an existence. This means that I rather choose even if that means I make bad or wrong choices. No choice is worse than being a sinner.
Enjoyed the video.
I have heard long ago that Satan didn't care about the souls, he just wanted the power. Eventually everyone would have failed because even in the pre earth life we were imperfect. We could have just made a small, seemingly insignificant mistake and spent eternity in outer darkness.
I personally believe that Satan's biggest problem is one that we face in the church today, he thought Heavenly Father could do anything with impunity. But even Heavenly Father has to follow the laws of the universe and work in harmony with it. When I understood that, it made everything else make sense.
For instance, God doesn't make rules because he hates gay people, but the universal laws will not hold that relationship together for eternity and He knows that, so he commands us not to do something that will go away.
@@drewhanna9057 Well said.
@@drewhanna9057 the force is real!
@@Crikey420 George Lucas was receiving what he was ready to receive.
Exciting lesson. I love choice. Now, to use it correctly.
Malevolent compassion is being made manifest at the United Nations. Beware...
What are your thoughts on the idea that Satan wanted to take away our agency by removing the law all together, thus it wouldn't matter what you did, because there is no right or wrong? I see a lot of people arguing this idea today along with the idea that one must be forced to do right, so i wonder which Satan truly wanted to do? They both seem like a way for us to not reach our potential
I think we're in error if we assume that Lucifer was always evil. We know from scripture that he fell. I think he fell from a state of righteousness to evil. I think if he had always been evil he would have never gained the following he did.
Just like Samual the Lamanite…. Keep standing on the WALL
Without the option to fail you cannot succeed. Without the option to hate you cannot love. The choice is the test and without the test we are all lost.
I kind of think "equity of outcome" was just his sales pitch, when his goal was full control and glory when his plan did better than the Father's. Just like today, people pushing for "equality" really just want control.
They want a result without the sacrifice and they want to choose what they want without a consequence.
Wow. Brilliant! I always wondered how it was possible for Lucifer to rebel against our Father and Christ after having been in their presence for so long. Surely he would have felt of their love, compassion, and mercy. How could he fight against that? Toxic empathy makes sense. And perhaps there was pride and jealousy in there too.
I do wish people would quit referring to agency as choice alone. Agency is knowledge of good and evil, the ability to choose one or the other, the capacity to ACT and being subject to the consequences. The Lord created things to act and things to be acted upon and this is the agency of man, the capacity to act. D&C 93.30-31. Accountability for actions and thought which is also an act. We need to be concerned about accountability more than choices. Do it. Do it right.
Interesting how Satan's plan would destroy our agency while he gets to keep his and would be the only one to be exalted.
I believe his plan was rejected because what he proposed was completely unworkable. Once free will is removed there is no longer a path for spiritual growth that could lead to Exaltation. I think a third of the host of heaven fell for this unworkable scheme because Lucifer proposed saving everyone despite personal effort. Christ stepped in to support the Father's plan that protected our freedom to choose and by offering to become the Savior the Father's plan was then made doable for us, but only if we freely decided to follow that plan.
Lucifers plan was doomed to failure because of removing free will and his underlying motive was himself, not others.
@@stevehumble8865 We had a 70 come to our stake and he echoed that thought, saying that Satan was a liar from the beginning; that his plan was a lie.
I agree with some of what you say--even so, I think there was another dimension to the adversary's goals having to do with his own aggrandizement. He was one of the "noble and great ones" and perhaps arrived to that level of existence through some kind of unaccountable process or creation as alluded to in Abraham 3. And so what happens when the Father presents his plan is that he doesn't want to given up his position--he wants to preserve the old pecking order so to speak rather than allow some average joe, like me, in a smelly T-shirt access to a process of enlargement that would place me on the same plain of governance as himself. That said, I think where his egalitarian plan comes into play--and I learned this from a really smart blogger--is that he uses it propagandistically to sling mud on the Savior's approach--though he really didn't care at all about where people landed so long as he was the top dog. And I'm guessing that, much like the kingmen in the book of Mormon, he made many promises to other "noble and great ones" (or people of "high birth") that they would be placed in positions of power so long as they supported his ascent to the throne. Nasty stuff.
I think there is a significant misunderstanding of this scripture. In the LDS culture we have appear to think that God's plan does NOT redeem everyone. That is a false notion! Under the great Plan of Happiness who is not redeemed from death and hell? No body! EVERYONE is redeemed from death and hell because of Jesus Christ's resurrection. ALL are resurrected to a degree of glory or a degree of joy. It was not Satan's plan to redeem ALL and God's plan to redeem SOME. It was God's plan to redeem ALL!
The Plan of Salvation, the Council in Heaven, and the War in Heaven contain within them more than we can presently imagine.
Salvation is free, but exaltation is earned.
"IT"S JUST NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!"
AND Honor and Glory = POWER so Satan wanted and needed HF giving him more power.
And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them
We can only become a zion people by freely choosing the path of righteousness on our own, zion can not be forced on us because force does not internally change who we are. I believe that is the real failure of Satan's plan- using some type of force to ensure we become "zion" and that is an unworkable scheme. Our Heavenly Father rejected Lucifer because his proposal was completely unworkable.
Perhaps the lower kingdoms are where people are because they do not want to give up their favorite sins. Where they can continue in that behavior. If it were not so wouldn't they repent and progress?
But can you still sin in the next life. I mean its still a kingdom of God I doubt God would allow sin even in his lowest kingdom.
Is their agency removed? I wouldn't think so.
I will make only one point here. I think that Lucifer may want equal out come for all. But, I also think that in the end he desires himself to be exalted above everyone. We see this in the ideologies of today.
🎯🎯🎯🎯
You should go watch rings of power lord if the rings. The producer is LDS and he has turned surauman into the Devil. It has been fantastic! Worth the watch IMO
Sauron only wants Peace for everyone. (Episode 7 I think)
10:00 is it the plan of salvation or the plan of exaltation?
"If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation."
Was he also scared he wouldn’t make it? Equity and fear go hand in hand
Yeah. I believe in this as well. He knew he would forget pre-earth life just like we all do. And he's thinking... yeah I don't know about this, Heavenly Father.
Please don't take this video down!
Ironically there's no disparity once you reach the kingdom you end up in.
I have been thinking a lot lately about Lucifer/Satan and the choices he made. That being said I question the idea that whenever we do something wrong it is because Satan tempted us. I disagree with the idea that Satan puts the idea into our head. We were not perfect in the preexistence and had to learn how to become perfect like our Father. I am sure we were nowhere close to being like Christ. We came here to learn to become better. We will sin and make mistakes. I don't think we can blame every sin or mistake on Satan.
(If we can blame everything we do wrong on Satan why do we need to repent? It is Satan's fault right. We didn't do it!)
Is Satan evil? Yes, but does he make us sin? I think that we make choices because we are weak and imperfect. Good/Evil have existed before we became spirit sons and daughters of God. We each had a level of knowledge, but we were still imperfect. Satan is here and takes power when we give him power. WE CHOOSE TO GIVE OUR WILL OVER TO THE ADVERSARY!!
Yes he makes us sin in a sense he feeds the Ego withinevery person. This Ego is our pride our lust our evil. Like not to be dirty "Sex" is pleasurable but God has a set standard for it now this standard is like a two way road out in a flat land. If we follow God with the standard we stay in our lane while the Devil encourages us to left or further right into the dirt or do a donut or what ever. Now those can be fun but those can also be dangerous like we could accidently hit another car or swerve off the road like if we have casual sex it can increase the chances of STDs and HIV and so on. Yes you feel pleasure regardless but only one way keeps us safe the other is more thrilling but also way more dangerous. We have the freedom to choose in the end of the day knowing right from wrong but the Devil feeds on that ego causing us to sin. Tempting us to do things more and more dangerous then before thats why sex addicts end up doing tam stuff at first and then go crazy because they are never full and always craving more. While God doesn't tempt us he only feeds fully when when we do good.
Satan never cared about anyone except himself he was very good at checking boxes so when the plan was presented and a veil would be in place and we wouldn’t remember he had a problem he knew he would fail because his motivation was selfish and himself so he proposed another plan with no consequences for sin that was his plan you see that being played out today
Greg, what was the name of that scripture study app you use and where can I get it? Thanks.
Scripture Notes - wwwscripturenotes.com
The writers of the Constitution of the United States also recognized disparity. See Federalist Papers #10.
With regard to headline that said "what turned Lucifer" may I ask this question. What did Lucifer mean when he told Heavenly Father that the reason he gave Adama and Eve the fruit was "to do what had been done in other worlds" to other similar people/children of God? It made it sound like he did not expect to be cursed.
if Satan's rebellion is part of this worlds creation who functioned as opposition for the numberless worlds created before ours? thank you for being there and doing what you do.
My understanding -
Lucifer didn’t want us to have Agency.
He didn’t say that he didn’t want Agency for himself.
“I will do it and I will get the glory.”
He wanted to be above all.
He wanted to make it easy for himself and unobtainable for all of us. One him and all of us would be his servants.
We would not progress.
The only way we become like God is The Only Way.
There is no shortcut.
I have to learn - through Agency - what is required - and let go of what a goddess is Not - and Become a Goddess - literally - before I can Be worthy of That Eternal title.
- great video
No agency = slave
Would would God have done had there been no Lucifer? Lucifer was required for the Plan of Salvation to work. Just something that came to mind.
He wanted to redeem and save us without having an Atonement. He did not want any requirements. Elder Oaks said we knew beginning to end in the premortal life. We saw all the innocent babies dying and all the evil contained in the seven seals where plagues and war plagued humanity. God wanted equality as well but it had to be through Christ.
I like to think that these ideas were floating around.
Avoiding risk
Escaping painful things at all costs
Distrust of a Savior to help and guide
Not willing to experience life anew if it means forgetting all.
Fear, doubt, and unbelief. I believe the devil championed these things.
The only way for there to NOT be disparity is if we all choose exactly the same….
Alma 48:17 “Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.”
“for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power”. Honor is God’s power. The intelligences of the universe honor God by following his command (just as a soldier honors a General by follow commands) This is what Lucifer wanted to bring about his plan, with that honor he could command the intelligences, but fortunately, that’s not how it works as justice must be met or honor is lost. This is how God can cease to be God.
So no disparity for all of us but Lucifer gets to be exalted in his plan and we don’t?
Sounds fair 🤣
I'm not sure that Lucifer could force anyone to do anything. Further, I doubt that Lucifer would force people to do Good. I believe that agency would be destroyed by moral relativism, meaning Lucifer's idea was that there would be no Good or Evil.
Lucifer's plan was one of subjection and nomination. He sought to have the throne of God. That is what is meant by "Give me Thine honor." Lucifer sought to bring everyone in subjection to himself, including Jehovah and Elohim. Elohim, because Lucifer wanted his honor or his power and Glory, and Jehovah because he would have been born in the flesh and subjects to Lucifer. Lucifer may have played upon the compassion of those spirits who followed him, but he had no compassion himself. Like all tyrants, he sought to make everyone equally miserable under himself.