Zach's Insane Takes on Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes | Guilty Pleasures Ep. 139
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- Опубліковано 7 січ 2024
- Obviously we loved the new Hunger Games, but is Lucy Gray a manic pixie dream girl? I feel like no??
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GUILTY PLEASURES
Comedians Zach Kornfeld, Kelsey Darragh, and Garrick Bernard take turns sharing their favorite guilty pleasure movies and TV shows to feel good about feeling guilty.
PODCAST DEPT
Executive Producer | Keith Habersberger
Executive Producer | Eugene Lee Yang
Executive Producer | Zach Kornfeld
Podcast Producer | Rainie Toll
Audio Engineer | Jonathan Kirk
MUSIC: Licensed from AudioNetwork
SFX & VIDEO ASSETS: Licensed from Videoblocks - Комедії
District 12 canonically is Appalachian country and Suzanne Collins said that katniss should’ve had that accent!
I like the idea of Lucy's people taking the accent with them when they go
@@nailinthefashion Yeah I got the impression that since Lucy is essentially of a travelling people, like "gypsies", that's why her group had accents but not the rest of the district. Further othered her.
@@cutepiku the less offensive term you were looking for was nomads lol. LWF g*psy is considered a slur
I live in Western NC area and she sounds just like everyone I know that's from here
@cutepiku she was inspired by the romani but the rest of the district should have had the accent bc they're in Appalachia
If you think Katniss was bright eyed, bushy, tailed, or optimistic it’s 100,000% time to re-read the books
Like she is probably the most pessimistic, nihilistic main character whose pov I've read, she keeps herself alive for three books only to keep the people she loves alive
The absolute worst take of this movie is calling Lucy Gray a manic pixie dream girl. The entire point of the movie is that she isn't while snow is trying to make her one. She is just a girl trying to survive and doing whatever it takes. We see her through the eyes of snow, not for who she actually is.
Tbh, some of these takes were high key disappointing.
i mean, every manic pixie dream girl is a regular ass girl (with complexities like everyone) seen through the eyes of someone else (typically a man, typically because he needs her to be one). i don’t think lucy gray is one either but snow WOULD fit into the male protagonist meeting a “wild and exciting” mpdg
a manic pixie dream girl is through the eyes of the male. thats what the 'dream girl' part is ;)
I know y’all probably aren’t gonna see this, but I had to pop in just to say that Lucy Gray had an accent because District 12 is in Appalachia, which is also why she sings bluegrass style songs. Also why her “Southern” sounded off, because the Appalachian dialect is a bit different from a Deep South dialect. As someone from Appalachia, I really appreciated those attention to details
the other reason is bc THG is from Katniss' pov so she doesnt think she has an accent, she thinks the capital people talk funny. you are seeing Lucy from Snow's pov.
I need a directors cut version of this episode with Becky inserting her comments and thoughts bc I KNOW she has opinions
"Directors cut of this episode" 💀
Oh my god, I second this so bad
Zachs confusion just confirms what i thought, the movie speed runs the book and you dont get enough details. The book is SO LONG!
They didn't want to make Snow too villainous since you're supposed to empathize but I think being over the shoulder of a snake would have been funner
It should've been 2 movies for sure.
I mean, I hadn't read the book when I watched the movie but I got all the stuff he missed
At the part where we’re discussing why Coriolanus sent the Jabberjay - I think the movie did stumble showing how Coriolanus TRULY resented Serjanus - in his eyes, the Plinths stole the Snow fortune (as munitions were District 13, where their WHOLE fortune was and then was moved to 2 after the bombing) he never saw him more as District or even more than a way to rise back up into the ranks. He HATED being buddy buddy with him and risking his life to save him, only for, in his eyes, to turn around and make the same mistakes again and again. They even gloss over the fact that Coriolanus essentially absolves himself of the act of killing Serjanus a bit because him saving him in the arena gave him “borrowed time”.
yes, he was very heavily edited in the movie, in the books you see how he was truly despicable and inclined to become evil from the first page, his character arc was how the different people and situations could've turned him good but at every turn he chose the wrong path and eventually blamed it on how human nature is fundamentally evil and needs to be controlled and he's just a product of circumstance. Whereas the movie misses some of that and it can come off as the exact opposite of the orginal arc which is a shame, but i enjoyed it nonetheless
Wow, when I saw it I thought that SNOW did it because her thought that Coriolanus's father would pay to get him free or change his district and was shocked when they actually killed him.
@@kizi180 He still thought that Serjanus’ dad might buy his way out of it, but at this point in the book, he also was aware that sending it to Dr. Gual was essentially a death sentence. Especially how she treated the Capitol students, including him. He even thought about deleting the recording before packing the Jabberjay, but decided not to.
Snow spoke to Sejanus with such disgust throughout the movie, I don’t get how folks think we need his inner thoughts when he said many things out loud “just have your dad buy you a discharge” -“they lost the war,” “are you trying to help these people” -- like the red flags were all through the movie. As a person who hadn’t read the book before I saw this, I did not have trouble picking up on Snows clearly bigoted view of districts, nor his disgust for Sejanus at all. I never thought he was a friend to him but rather saving Sejanus often meant saving himself. That was clear to me without his inner dialogue. 😅
Kelsey hit it right on the mark. Snow is sent to District 12 with no choice, it was a punishment and he hated every minute of it. But in contrast, Sejanus chose to go to District 12 and genuinely wanted to make the world a better place.
Snow had every opportunity to make the good choice, exactly like what Lucy Gray said. He just chose every to make the bad decision every time.
to be fair to Zach, i think the movie erased a lot of the signs that Snow was spiteful and felt superior to everyone from the very first page, and that his arc was how every person and situation could've turned him good but he kept choosing the wrong choice and blaming it on circumstance and human nature being evil and vicious. So to someone who hadn't read the books it seems like a regular arc of someone good turning evil when in reality it's much more complex, that's my biggest gripe with the adaptation
Snow absolutely chose to go to District 12
Coriolanus was always very self serving. Every choice he made was for himself. He was obsessed with wealth and power and he was ready to do anything it took to achieve it. I hated that the movie left out how he wormed his way into Sejanus’ ma’s heart and used his friendship for personal gain.
And made him feel so guilty he kinda didn't care much in the book
def agree, he was so manipulative and hateful in his pov from the books, a lot of that was erased in the movies and instead they made him seem like a normal good guy who fell in love and then became tolerant of the districts through his time as a peacekeeper... When in the books he was spiteful, possessive and hateful towards them at every turn and he believed the capitol (and his family line) was superior and deserved better, in fact the only reason he allowed himself to fall for Lucy Gray was because at several points he expresses how he sees her as someone apart from the districts and someone just like him who was a product of circumstance and deserved a life of superiority in the capitol alongside him, that is until he ruined his future and also realised she didn't believe the capitol was in the right . That's my biggest issue with the movie but overall everything else was very well executed
i do think the last point was obvious by the end. when he said that out of all of sejanuses belongings he will only send the picture of them to his parents as an act of manipulation so he can have them support him financially thinking hes some kind of replacement for their only child and eventually inherit their wealth.
When Garrick said this movie haunted his dreams...I felt that. It wrecked me, and I actually felt a bit icky after it. The movie was sooooo good!
Have you read the book?
It definitely haunted me too.
@leilaloo2399 I still need to! After their review I definately feel like I missed out not reading it.
@@hobbitjj it’s so good! Highly recommend. Just be ready to be haunted a little longer. I remember getting to the end and chills covering me.
Tigris transformed herself, but then Snow barred her from the games after he determined her unsightly.
The Book Leo (UA-camr) did an incredible video essay titled: "the new hunger games prequel is genius and here's why 🐍", where she dives into its epigraph (quotes page at the beginning of the book) and apparently Suzanne Collins quotes 3 philosophers of survivalism and then goes on to explore their 3 main classic theories of survivalism in the 3 different sections of the book. It's incredibly well-done, well researched and profound.
You understand the theories when reading it even without paying mind to the epigraph for sure but there are definitely some elements and characters that symbolise the different theories that i had missed so i'm thankful to that UA-camr for doing the research and explaining them, highly recommend
I am so surprised that Kelsey read the books and thinks he loved Lucy grey. The story wasn’t about him becoming evil, he was always evil! The inner monologue proves he hated seganous. He was always capitol. And he had every opportunity to choose to be good and kept choosing not to. Idk that was my take on it at least
I think both can be true at the same time. I think even Snow didn’t realize at first how evil he truly was but it definitely always was there. I think his response to loving and losing though ripped that last barrier off the containment of that evil. Even in the book he said he hadn’t felt like that for anyone before.
Oh, he totally loved Lucy, but in an abusive, controlling, evil way. He fell in love with Lucy, but there are people who show their love in HORRIBLE ways.
Usually like this pod but the justification of snows evil with " he fell in love " like no he's so obviously not a good person or truelly in love how do you read the books and come to the conclusion he was actually in love
I did really like the movie but I do feel it would have been better as a limited series. That way they would have had more time to flesh out corio and Lucy grays relationship like they do in the book, more time to show corio's inner thoughts like they do in the book to make him being evil less of a surprise, and flesh out the last section better too.
Some important stuff you are missing for the ending. There's this piece where you are watching snow realize he hates not having the amenities of the capital. He hates the rain the dirt, he hates the disorder that the jabber Jay's represent and how nature goes against the capital. The whole time he's fighting this desire and his internal dialog in the books captures this really well. There's a piece of snow always trying to get back to his family and to the capital hence the betray of sajanis because sajanis could pull him down with him.
"RIGHT!!! so the film wasn't over" was the most savage and brilliant commentary by ms. rainie toll. You get em girl
I need to see Becky's opinion on Zach's take!
Snow didn’t perform the body modifications on Tigress
That quote about being a "performer forced to fight" was actually from an interview with Rachel Zegler when she was asked what made Lucy different from Katniss
im screetching are you kidding me with that caeser flickerman slander
i absolutely loved him in this but TUCCI
When Caesar Flickerman is a nepo baby
Clearly everyone needs to rewatch Catching Fire, cuz putting this movie anywhere near that one is truly insane.
That's what I said. It's cinema to me. Like, the characters, the sets, the plot, the writing and crew said "Hunger Games but better"
zach is talking about the mutts! in the hunger games first book, there is discussion ab what the dog-like creatures with the human eyes are in the arena. they’re literally dead tributes & capitol enemies morphed posthumously into a “mutt” & thrown onto the current tributes. katniss recognizes the eyes of a mutt as a tribute she was in the area with toward the end of the book.
I'm a fan of the books and was always upset at the fact that they left out the importance of music in the first movies. When I read the prequel it tied a lot of those ideas together but if you just watch the movies you miss that little snippet of how important music was to Katniss.
I'd just like to point out that Lucy Gray and the rest of the Covey seem to be Appalachian, which is why they have the accents and their culture is so different from the rest of the District 12 residents.
Also it's not a musical! Lol it's a movie featuring singing, which is very different.
District 12 is Appalachian country
He was joking calling it a musical
This is a movie which I really enjoyed, but you have to read the book to understand this story’s intricacies.
I think movie only people missed out on not being able to hear Snow's inner thoughts. I wish they'd been able to integrate that into the movie.
@@najbaamer Yeah that’s kind of the whole point of the story the juxtaposition between his thoughts, and how he projected himself to the world. The movie also only subtly hinted on how desperately hungry he was with visual cues. I think they could have stressed how he was starving alongside the tributes and how Ma’s food actually kept him from starving even after the games. He was so cunning and logical in the book.
@@Poetic.rectum Yes, Ma's food! I can understand why it was probably cut for time, but I was disappointed because it showed how Coriolanus was using Sejanus's family for his own benefit, while still continuing to look down on them and thinking of Ma as backwards because she did her own cooking and baking rather than relying on hired help.
@@najbaamer Yessss thank you, you get me lol. Also they made Ma so skinny minor detail that I couldn’t help but notice.
The manic pixie dream girl debate about what "type" of girl she is doesn't work because manic pixie dream girls are idealized versions of themselves based on the wants and desires of the down and out male protagonist. They are seen as larger than life, not like the other girls, being the only one who can understand the weird, quirky interests and personality of the male protagonist. They are also the antithesis to the male protagonists plainness that serves to motivate them. That's why sometimes she's alt punk ramona flowers, sometimes she's quirky feminine zoey deshanel, sometimes she's spontaneous rebel emma roberts in perks of being a wallflower.
I do think that Snow loves Lucy Grey, but he loves the idealised version of her that he's created in his mind as someone who saves him from doldrum of his lonely capital existence. Someone who finally understands the pain of losing his family, represents a joy from his pre-war boyhood and relationship with his mother, someone who isnt shackled by the rules and expectations of the capital and for whom he does not have to play the role of "a Snow". (I know theres a lot of debate about whether he really loved her, I think he loved her as well as he could but his love is based on possession and not real love). And Lucy, being a performer, does play up this character in order to survive, to enchant both the audience and her one lifeline in the games. Whether she actually grows to care for Snow in return or whether that was all an act is debatable. I think she does trust and love him to some degree, but the more she learns about him she also learns that he is also putting on an act and much of his character is a facade and not to be trusted.
So yes, she is in a way a manic pixie dream girl that is idealised and serves to motivate Snow, but the film and book also make it clear that there is more beyond that and part of Snow's "downfall" and eventual turn is having bought into the idealisation rather than the reality.
I LOVED this movie. I haven’t read the book yet but it brought me right back into the heyday of the original franchise. Also, loved that they leaned into Appalachian culture.
Definitely read it! So many extra details that build the connections to the original books. Super good!
@@meganreely6136 I was gasping in the theater whenever they had a tie-in! I can't wait to read it!
this is lowkey so frustrating to watch LOL the movie needs the last half to show Snow's transition from Corio to president Snow!! The games are such a small part of this story and one of the main themes throughout thg is the ethics of entertainment, so valuing the movie only for the games is exactly what Suzanne is critiquing. We see Snow choose over and over to cross the line into "evil" in ways that selfishly benefit him & his future only. He is inherently selfish with a superiority complex from the START (which to be fair is more difficult to portray in the movie but is v clear in his inner monologue throughout the book). I made a whole video essay on why this is such a brilliant villain origin story bc it truly explores what made Snow into the dictator he becomes without ever redeeming him.
The casting choices were (chef’s kiss) ❤
Zach "it's NOT in the book, Becky told me!" *snippity snap snap snap*
I was so confused by them aging the technology like they did. In the book they use communicators on their wrists to send gifts in, and they explain that only on special occasions do they get access to the amazing technology they actually still have. Was also not thrilled about them changing the timing of their first kiss
edit to add: I do not think that he is in love with Lucy. He wants to own her and control her.
I hope to get a tiny ounce of Becky’s perspective on this film in the next episode
Garrick and Kelsey read the book and still think Snow was genuinely in love with her???
I know I was shocked when they said this.
@@shekka24 Yeah, I don't know how you can read the book and still come to that conclusion. It was very clearly about obsession and possession. He thought of himself as OWNING her, not loving her.
@@najbaamerwhich is why he's so upset at the end. Not because he wasn't chosen but because he didn't get what he wanted, such a selfish poot.
I was super surprised too. Snow’s “love” was rooted in possession and ownership throughout his inner monologue in the book.
When I read the book I couldn’t help but compare him to how Joe Goldberg thinks and acts in “You.” I think he thinks he is love at times, but that love is conditioned on how much power he had over Lucy.
Zach's comment about part 3 being boring is something a lot of people said...THAT BEING SAID, if you said this film should just be the games like THG & CF and not the progression of war/characters/etc like in Mockingjay then you are no better than the Capitol people watching the games and clearly didn't get the point of this series.
I find this fascinating and a small part of me likes to think Suzanne gets both intrigued and exhausted by these takes. We are just like the capital in many ways and it can be jarring and kinda meta to really think about.
I wish I’d been on this podcast because I feel like they all missed and misunderstood so much
I have literally been binging Hunger Games content. It's like they've been listening to my algorithm
Have you found the tribute Diaries from the first one yet? They gave the cast handheld cameras to vlog back when smart phones weren't so good lmao. So nostalgic 😭 I still have my deluxe edition dvds
WE NEED YOUR REVIEW OF WONKA!
I don't think he loved her, he thought he did, but he only knows possession and obsession
I love the dynamic of Zach vs Kelsey, Garrick and rainie in this episode. Like a flip from Dear Evan Hansen which is one of my favourite guilty pleasure eps
I love what they did with Mockingjay. To this day is my most re-watch of the franchise.
lucy and snow were not in love and it's so scary that people ESPECIALLY BOOK READERS don't see that.... he wants to own and control her. even the "it's the things we love most that destroy us" is not about snow loving lucy, it's snow loving power and control more than anything.
To simplistic but go off. He did love her but it wasn't pure. He loved her as long as she delivered what him wanted. His love was the power he felt over her until that stopped and Snow went for the more inanimate goal.
@@LesDrews Thank you! Too many people here seem to think that love is inherently healthy and sweet. Snow did love Lucy, but it was not a healthy love. It was very much abusive and controlling, but he went to District 12 just to see Lucy again. He was excited about running away with her (until he found the weapons).
You can be in love and still an evil, controlling bastard.
If any movie needed an intermission it was this one, i had to pee so bad it was a long movie
This is the movie that made you realize how brutal the hunger games are
Talking about seeing Finnick's story. im not really a fan of seeing prequels about things already discussed a lot. So well known characters or history no, but random things mentioned in passing, sure. So I dont want to see Haymitch or any 3rd quarter quell victor games either. 1) I want to learn more about the world and there's only so much you can do with a story that's already set, 2) we already know who wins those games, and 3) its almost impossible to meet expectations of stories that have already been built up like that.
I think something that would be interesting is the 25th games, the first quarter quell. The first time they make the games extra fucked up by making people vote for their own tributes. And what that could do the mentality of the districts. There are secret dealings for who gets picked in 10th games, but imagine the politics leading up to the choice.
They also would have only added Victor's Village, prize money, and food for the districts after 10th games. So you are approaching one of the first games with careers that have been trained their whole lives. Maybe the careers have a 10 year streak at this point and this is the one that breaks that streak.
15 years also gives a good jump in Snow's story. He should have finished uni, be pretty established and be busy climbing the ladder, but not yet have full power. Maybe this is his first shot at real power. He may or may not have killed again, but his power play kills could come into play. He'd probably be married and having children by now, so you could see that dynamic.
The games would be significantly different, but they probably still aren't what we saw in the first hunger games. Designers should be getting established, so you can also see Tigress's rise to fame and maybe the start of their relationship breakdown.
omg yes please send this pitch to Collins
There were a lot of incorrect details and references about the book (which i wish would've been researched and corrected by the production staff) which just shows that the movie did not get through as much detail to the viewer as it should've. zach u gotta read the book lol
also, they ALL thought snow was truly in love with lucy gray??? something went wrong here
jason schwartzman USED to be the drummer for phantom planet. he left to act and they actually have a diss album towards him 💀
totally agree this should have been multiple parts, lots of what was really cool and interesting about this movie was kinda rushed. I wanted to see Snows dad and how he got the hunger games going, i wanted to see more of Lucy Greys people and her story, Snow was so interesting as an old man in the origionals and he was so calculated and you can really see him making those moves and coutermoves but in this one it just didnt feel like he was convayeing it quite as well. He was just kunda being a self serving shit guy. There were parts of this I loved but it didnt have that same feeling as the first three, definately would have loved it if this was a three part and it showed more, they shoulda really milked the hunger games resurgance and done a trilogy
I love Rainie keeping Zach in check
About half way through the podcast, but in regards to Dr. Gail’s character, there’s an interesting underplay of Nature vs Nurture and I really think Dr. Gual is supposed to be Coriolanus’s Nature that’s developing him.
20:16
Sister google the word manic hahahaha oh my god
As someone who didnt read this book, i saw the movie and was confused by some parts also and seeing them have this discussion DEFINITELY cleared up a lot of confusion for me ugh i loved this episode !
What I think is so powerful about return to the HG world is i watched the first movies as a teen and now im adult. The themes have more weight as someone who could have a child now and seeing the world through adult eyea
I don’t get why the singing was annoying. I was disappointed with how short the song scenes were after listening to the soundtrack.
I didn't read the books so maybe I am completely wrong. But didn't it seem like the capital let Lucy Grey go as a final test for Coriolanus before he could come back to the capital. Like they knew that they would totally try to find each other again and of course are aware he bought his way to her district. Also Dr.Volumnia said when he gets back and they chat that "you have passed all the tests". Maybe I am totally off base here but I kinda got that sense.
I did read the book, and didn't get this take necessarily - that she was part of it. BUT it's an interesting point.
In the books, they release her as the victor - and Casca gives her some money I believe - but they erase her victory due to the cheating. It's kept quiet, she's sent back home. No victory lap or replays. She won't be featured in the "highlight reels" we hear about in Katniss' day.
But this is an interesting thought if Gaul included it in her "tests" - because she knew he cheated for her, and knew he picked District 12 to then go to. So did he cheat for power and victory, or for love? When he came back to the capital, Gaul knew what Snow really wanted to pursue at the end of the day. That's a great take @eo7797!
Warning spoilers. I saw the movie before reading the book. I LOVED this movie so much THAT lead me to read the book! Both were great! But because his inner monologue in the book is missing from the movie, the movie viewer easily accepts that Coriolanus only became evil in the last act, but as a reader because of the inner monologue, I felt that he was ALWAYS about self-preservation in all forms including his obsession with how he is perceived. So much so that it’s to the point where he is doing and/or allowing others to help “bad things” to happen so that it benefits him. In the book there are countless examples of this and that he knowingly manipulates others to benefit himself. Whether it be to raise his social status, gain money, safety for himself, and/or winning some form of power. Due to the movie missing his inner monologue , the viewer believes he was truly sad for killing Sejanus when crying in the room. And the viewer is confused about why the last act ended in betrayal with Lucy Gray. But in the book , his internal monologue from the beginning displays that he is a sociopath. He doesn’t know how to love and his closest interpretation of love is infatuation, but moreover, his fondness for the other person is about how they benefit him in the moment. Even with other characters, he will acknowledge as “okay” but he still loathes that they don’t meet his standards. As soon as the person doesn’t benefit him, he resents them to the point of despising them; thus, he wants them gone/killed/disposed. He justifies all the wrong doings he does to others as their faul; thus, it’s the right thing as he deserves to be on top as he truly is the best person to be in highest power/position. From thinking of all the examples he wanted only to benefit himself. He imagined things Tigress would have needed to do to get the shirt ( but not stopping her because “ needed the shirt to impress” and dispute his disgust with what she would have needed to do ). He liked the praise of heroism and good character for going to his dying friend (“practically family high birth family”) but internally he found her annoying and boisterous but his self importance lead him to still sing at her funeral which gave him more honor amongst his society. His classmate being bit by snake for letting her lie and leaving her in hospital hoping his secret wouldn’t be exposed -he avoided until he realized he needed to manipulate her over again so she wouldn’t expose his secrets. All the things ( pretending, lying, cheating) to win the hunger games mentor so he could win money for school to better his standing in the capital ( I say his stand more than tigress because he felt entitled to a title and place of importance but he needed to be sure other snows were with home for good family name ). These were only some signs he was already turning to president Snow. From the book, Overall it seemed to me he was more upset with being in situation he couldn’t control that lead him to kill Bobbin than the actual act of killing Bobbin-because he truly believes people who were district were animals and beneath him. He convinced himself Lucy gray was “not district and exceptional” so that he could even allow himself to feel infatuated with her (what he calls “love”) . Also He wanted to kill the Mayor’s daughter thinking she was threat and did not feel bad at all. He tried to convince himself. He didn’t think Dr Gaul would kill Sejanus and his dad would buy him out but he knew dr Gaul would kill capital students easily ( snake girl) if the capital person was liar it traitor. He said what he did to Sejanus was really Sejanus doing it to himself and he cried more about the possibility of being caught and the poor Snow name/lineage than crying about his actions leading to killing sejanus in his break down moment. When running away he hates and grieving that the world wouldn’t get to experience him as the exceptional person he was and hates the thought of not living a comfortable and lavish life. Once Lucy gray was a threat he tried to find her WITH the gun in hand knowing he wanted to dispose of her-the last THING keeping him from rising out of the situation. Lastly the Dr at the army barrack said it was NOT a poisonous snake but and if he did feel anyway it was HIS MIND/THOUGHTS doing it. Him throwing away his mother’s compact from being ruined in River was not the moment he gave up his mothers goodness ( remember he gave up her compact as a way for Lucy gray to store poison, a murder weapon BEFORE he even went to the 12th district in the last act). When he was thinking about the love of his mother and real stop shop he said she loved music , But he thinks about how HATES Music ( it’s freedom , imagination, and interpretation he can’t control). He blames it’s his “love” for lucy gray that made him act foolishly so he would never love again but everything he did for Lucy gray was for himself not for her as he was still acting out of self preservation. He knew he couldn’t love her as soon as she sang she “lived by her charms” and when she admitted she was “bad” . He couldn’t love Lucy gray for doing that because that thought was too lowly and detestable even if she couldn’t help it ( like tigress) AND like how that other prteey duatrict girl was disgusting because father probably feed her the maid without her knowing to survive starvation. He wasn’t jealous of just Billy taupe because he loved Lucy gray, but he was jealous but that he couldn’t really own her as HIS distraction from his life in district 12 ( that is what LG became to him at that time now that she couldn’t win him college money-and he kept her a secret!). She was free do what she wanted and needed to survive and that bothered him. I also believe Lucy gray was a performer/manipulator survivor. but like corio she knew who to use , and when to lose them when they are no longer suited her.
I have never been so stressed out (in a good way) when watching a movie in my life
I'm sorry i have never seen you before and 4 minutes in I already love your vibe? BOOK CLUB? LOVE IT. PODCAST. LOVE IT. subscribed
I usually can agree with you guys, but you’ve all completely missed the point of the book. The entire book is in snow’s perspective. He found her annoying from the get-go. He used her as a tool to fuel his ego and his standing at the capital. He didn’t truly love her at all. If you make an opinion of any of the characters, you have to remind yourself that it’s in Snow’s perspective. He is not a trustworthy character. He lies to himself. We will never truly know Lucy Gray because Snow did not know Lucy Gray.
You should’ve had Becky on for this one. This episode was disappointing.
I WAS WAITING FOR THIS ONE
I hope Becky comes back when she's ready, for the last two movies. Zach needs to learn what war crimes Gale commits!
I actually agree with Zack, after reading the books. Since the book was so large. You could’ve easily made this a second movie and it wouldn’t feel like how mockingjay was. You could’ve played up the Romance you could’ve played up his internal conflict. You don’t need to have the actual hunger games to be involved fully like that. It could’ve been just snow and Lucy gray and how snow fully fell from grace.
Love that y’all are talking about this movie with all its parallels that is has to the real world but STILL have not uttered a peep about the atrocities currently happening in Palestine, Congo, Sudan, and so many other places
IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS OMG
I have come to a conclusion to not watch your episodes about the THG franchise because it always frustrates me how you guys always have the wrong takes in these movies
I’m from Kentucky, Lucy’s accent was so hard to get on board with. Jennifer Lawrence and Josh Hutcherson are from KY also, if anyone should’ve done the accent it was them😅
They actively chose not to in the originals because they thought it would be too hard to keep it consistent amongst all the action and it would be too distracting. I think it gives it a more pristinely post apocalyptic American vibe, something about the loss of culture, about assimilation, gives it that much more gravity and turmoil for me
I feel like these folks don't understand the characters or the story's narrative arc. He never loved anyone but himself and power. He was an opportunist who used Lucy, only she was too smart for him in the end. She out played him and saw through him, and that's what burns him all these years, because he's a narcissist. Katniss is his way to fix this one loss of his, or so he thinks.
also sweetie baby Zachary, please please listen to the audiobook, you'll understand it better.
Poor Things episode is needed!
no becky 😭
Honestly imo there is no comparison from this movie to the original Hunger Games. BOSAS feels at most times, incredibly juvenile, the dialogue was really underwhelming and immature. It felt almost Disney channel. Tom Blythe was an amazing actor and is probably the best part of this movie but honestly I felt like that inner monologue from the book was so integral in showing that snow has always been evil and doesn’t just randomly switch it on.
Idk what rainy is talking about, Rachel and Tom have AMAZING off screen chemistry 🫶🏼
she's just saying it's clearly strong platonic energy and not romantic bc rachel's SO in love with Josh and she's not wrong
I watched the movie before i read the book, and tbh I kind of agree with zach's take 😅 In the book we never get lucy gray's pov so she is basically a manic pixie dream girl. But in the movie rachel zegler is so good and that scene of her singing while being embraced by snakes is so big and epic that it feels like the climax of the movie! But it is actually Coriolanus's story so obviously the movie has to keep telling his story
This movie only works if you’ve seen/read the sequels, because it does all the legwork for understanding Snow’s character. The movie Tried to show us a man that lost all ties to humanity (the way Garrick so beautifully put it) but I don’t think they executed it very well. I don’t think they really showed us him being driven to the edge of his humanity. I only buy it because I factually *know* he is evil, but they don’t *show* us how it happened.
Aww, I thought Tom and Rachel had lovely chemistry. Judging from their interviews anyway. They bounce off each other really well. As for the movie, some integral Snow/Lucy Gray scenes were cut. Partly for run time issues but also they didn't want to give the audience any ideas. Snow's "love" for Lucy Gray is toxic and they knew a lot of young people would be watching, and well, they didn't want people to get the wrong idea - not that it matters cuz people are still shipping them regardless. There is a 4 hr cut though but I doubt it would get released. One of the major producers isn't for it.
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Hmm Is it the same thing I heard about wanting to matinee teen idol their romance but not too much? Also the third acts' structure got a bit clunky especially the deterioration of his bond with Sejanus, which was supposed to co-equal his deteriorating mental state in 12...
In my opinion, tho it is a good movie, I think it fails a bit to portray how fckn evil Snow. And I know we got to see how Snow evolved through out the movie, but I got many comments from people that didn't read the book, that they didn't understand Snow motives and how a broken heart makes you kill hundred of children. BUT in the book we see all the monologues in his head since the first page, and we got to know, he is a bad person since day one. He even considered selling Tigris, to get more money... idk that's the only thing I think it could be better.
I feel like Zach was being kind about this film. I did not like this movie at all... it bothered me to my core and felt like such a waste of time. HOWEVER, I am glad others enjoyed it, especially dedicated readers to the series who usually are the hardest to win over in film adaptations.
Did they ever finish reviewing the original HG movies?
loved this movie it was just long
Snow saw her as his manic pixie dream girl. That trope is a female character that I guy uses to changes his view and life. So yes I agree she is but that isn’t a a flaw in her side more of a comment on snow. I do think she charmed snow just like he did… but he had all the power and he didn’t know what real love was. *my opinion*
Alright, alright I'll watch this movie.
everyone needs to stop saying snow tortured tigress or forced her into plastic surgery. thats not canon!! yall are pulling that from nothing! she was a stylist in the games she most likely chose to look that way!!
PLSSS TELL ME THERES A SALTBURN EPISODE COMING!!! I NEEEEED THEM TO DISCUSS THE BATHTUB SCENE 🤣😫
this was the first one that had a death in the game that made me shocked even tho I knew it was going to happen.
Have y’all talked about season 2 of bridgerton yet?
I have an question do you think President Snow from the katniss series was dying from the poison from the snake throughout his life tell his death like a very slow acting poison
They confirm in the book that the snake wasn't venomous
Disappointed that you didn't mention how Coryo in his soldier era looked like Eminem
what about the movie's soundtrack tho??
The soundtrack is amazing. Some of the best in modern bluegrass right now, Molly Tuttle, Billy Strings, Sierra Ferrell. Most excellent! I hope they check out the soundtrack.
This movie would be perfect if it wasn’t about Snow but just a random person
I genuinely think this movie should not have been made or should've been done very differently. It is a book that relies heavily on Snow's inner world. I watched the movie first and was, not only bored, but confused. Everyone I know said they hated it too, which I thought was an extreme opinion, but I knew that I was missing so much context, so I read the book. The book was incredible and it was so obvious that Snow is a sociopath. I understood the movie a lot more, but I unfortunately still think the movie did not communicate what the book wanted. If anything, it should be a tv show, but I don't think a book that is very much inner dialogue should be made into a movie or even a show unless you can do it really well.
Tammy and the TRex
I also got confused about if snow actually liked Lucy grey. I believe he did. What confused me was the ending thinking did she actually lead him to the guns? The movie helped me believe Lucy was not into him. A cunning, acting queen.
I don't care what zach says. This movie is phenomenal and in my opinion the best movie of the franchise
Didn’t he say in the first few minutes that this movie was leagues better than the other movies in the franchise? I think he agrees with you!
To me nothing beats HG1 or Catching Fire. They hold up so well, I just watched all of em a month ago before Songbirds and ugh 🏆 10/10
I'm around 10 minutes in and I am loving Kelsey's takes! As someone who read the book, SPEAK, QUEEN!!
Ohthey said that the song was written by Lucy Gray once they witnessed the execution of Arlo Chance
This episode is almost unwatchable because of Zach being so wrong yet so loud. I usually love this pod but today Zach is just a man hating on shit because it’s for girls. Calling Lucy-gray a manic picky dream girl. Ugh I thought better you
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA I love when straight men are loud AND wrong though because it gives me an opp to go full coy and correct. Sexxyyyyyyyyy
Bruh. That’s exactly what she is. Lucy is the embodiment of the “I’m not like other girls” trope
bats are the number one cause of rabies zach
this was frustrating to watch especially zachs takes. im a long time fan and love zach and keith and eugene but this was not it, feels like they misunderstood the characters and movies pretty significantly
*movie
Zach is right this movie is too long