Bolt Action: Cock On Open vs Cock On Close
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- There's a lot of hot air generated over the relative merits or demerits of cock on open vs cock on close with turnbolt bolt action rifles. But what's the reality?
Spoiler: it depends on what you're doing. Each has advantages and disadvantages.
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Growing up with everything being cock-on-open, the 1st time you use a cock-on-close you really tend to hate it because it throws you off so much from what you're used to. But the more you shoot it the more it grows on you, as you realize that dividing up the effort used in working the bolt that way really does speed things up and allow you to put more effort into primary extraction w/o disturbing position as much...
My Uncle taught me to shoot Lee -Enfield No.2 and No.4 rifles, before I was a Cadet. The first few times I fired an L8 I found the short bolt throw off-putting.
Then when I inherited my Uncle's rifles I had to re-adapt.
I'm a right hander who shoots rifles left handed due to eye dominance. I find that cock-on-close right hand rifles are harder to manipulate the bolt compared to cock-on-open right hand rifles. This may be because I work the bolt with my left hand over the action which I find to be quicker than working the bolt with my right (supporting) hand. Night and day difference between shooting my Krag vs my 1891 Mauser when manipulating the bolt. Definitely prefer the cock-on-open military rifles compared to cock-on-close.
It's probably worth noting that as bolt-actions in a modern (read: after the proliferation of semi-automatic firearms) context are themselves pushed further and further into the upmarket slow-fire precision niche, mechanisms that don't make the rifle better in that niche get rejected or deprioritized.
This is, I believe, the main reason why cock-on-close has enjoyed virtually zero development in rifles over the last 100 years- its advantages are no longer relevant, but its drawbacks still are.
(Not all hope is lost for cock-on-close, though; the mechanism still enjoys wild success in modern semi-automatic pistols like Glocks.)
I agree, and yet,
There are areas in which that is not true.
The Dying world of the Scout Rifle.
&
The very much alive world of the Hog Rifle.
Both requiring follow up shot capabilities by their very nature.
I think it is the hunting community driving the Bolty market in the U.S. and most big game (Hogs being the major exception) are either limited to ONE per season or in states where more then one deer can be take, they are still hunted one at a time.
@@saoirse5308I disagree, I think the greater availability of battle rifle caliber semi-autos is killing off both the scout rifle and bolt action hog hunting market. An AR-10 costs the same or less than a large capacity bolt action, can do anything the bolt action can do ballistically and far outperform it in terms of followup shots means bolt actions have been rendered obsolete in these applications.
@@saoirse5308 For driven boar the best system is a straight-pull like the Blaser R8 or Merkel Helix.
They are wicked fast, very slick to operate and can be chambered in nearly any caliber. And they conform with gun laws limiting the use of semi-autos.
Cock-on-close has had no development because it is already fully developed. It is as simple as it gets. There's only one practical simple way to directly compress the spring. Cock-on-opening is the one that gets (and needs) continual development because the cocking effort can be improved with the computer aided design, modern machining, materials and coatings. With cock-on-closing the cocking effort is primarily just the spring force, which is set.
@@AntonGudenusASTUTE observation, thanks. I’m a big fan of straight pull actions-from Schmidt Rubins, K31s, Blazers, Merkel’s, (Wunderkind!), Helix to the ultimate Rimfire rifle action-the super slick Fortner. It’s . The multi-barrel/Caliber Merkel Helix has to be one of the most-if not the most-sensible hunting rifles ever made. Such a versatile rifle comes with a hefty price tag, but it’s 3 rifles in one-very handsome-case that holds the barrels, action and bolts. You can buy a Merkel Helix to hunt 3 different sizes of game. The avid hunter who’s "in the know" and has the money is probably going to be happiest with the Helix. The cost probably scares off a lot of people who don’t get the chance to see that owning ONE Helix is really owning THREE-very high quality-rifles.
Funny thing happened. I watched this video, and in my recommendations I see an old Lindybeige video of him shooting a rifle in Switzerland. I'd seen it before, but I watched it again. You're in it! I knew I remembered your voice from somewhere :) It's nice to have one or two Europeans contributing to the youtube gun space.
As always, fascinating to understand, and your evenhanded approach to the pros and cons is as refreshing as a cool breeze on a hot day.
Many thanks!
Bloke, THANK YOU! My brother has a 1903 he sometimes uses for reenacting, and the bolt at times seemed to rotate a little and get stuck if it was pulled back too briskly. Everyone just assumed "Greta" was a bit tired and needed to be handled with more care than the other 1903 we have. I just checked, and it's got a what looks like a faulty/broken Bolt Sleeve Lock! Thank goodness it's only an $8 part, and the rifle only ever gets fed blanks.
Good explanation. I have an old Spanish Mauser, manufacture date of 1928 that's cock on close. I think it's a1893 pattern. It does have a pretty hefty firing pin spring though. Still no problem closing it.
Me before watching this: "Well, I assume the correct answer is whatever the Lee-Enfield does."
Wrong answer :p
the correct answer is "yes"
The Carcano seems to have an unusually strong striker spring. With the turned down bolt handle of the carbine version it is a bear to open the bolt from the awkward position of staying in firing position with the butt in your shoulder when working the bolt. It’s why you see people dropping the Carcano to get better leverage when cycling the bolt then bringing it back up to fire.
Thanks for wading into that minefield to save Ian!
Great video 😊 I like when you explain the fundamentals. Very interesting.
A great video for the adults in the room. Let the children fuss about pistons and suchlike... 😎
Those old bolters are actually pretty sophisticated!
To me personally in my anecdotal experience, it doesn't make that much difference to me in terms of just shooting and cycling the action. I can cycle a cock-on-close Mauser pretty fast, although I do cycle the bolt rather violently in order to be fast. It's very useful to see a proper video on the matter, showing the technical differences between the two. Very nice, Bloke!
My SMLE is an Ishapore 2A1, which is a variant built in India during the 50’s and 60’s to use the then new 7.62x51 cartridge, and it’s a great rifle. I’d easily say it’s one of the greatest military bolt action rifles made, which is fitting as it’s one of the very last adopted before automatics were universally standardized.
It’s also made on a the already outdated Lee-Enfield pattern.
@@borkwoof696
I take it you mean that it requires a human operator to reload ?
I picked up my own 2A1 for dirt cheap and it appeared to be beat to s--t. The stock had chunks that had been cut out of it and replaced with different wood, the metal was pitted and the whole thing was covered in some kind of shellac. As it turns out however the bore was pristine. I'm guessing it was used for 30 years of parade, drill and training and never actually fired. It's a good shooter too.
@@borkwoof696 I think they know that, since that's what the "LE" stands for in SMLE.
Nitpick: the 2A1 isn't a SMLE. The "SMLE" rifles are the ones from the 1904-1924 period. After that it was "Rifle No. 4", "Rifle No. 5", etc. (And in the case of yours, "Rifle 7.62 mm 2A1".)
Some fine bolt gun juggling there Bloke.
It's all about what you like and application. I grew up shooting a Springfield A3 and an Enfield Mk5. I liked the Enfield better, the action just felt more comfortable to use and yes it was faster, but the Springfield was decidedly more accurate. To each his own.
Slight nitpick. You said the 1903 springfield is part of the mauser 98 family when it's actually a 93 derivative. The 1903 didn't benefit from all Mauser's gas mitigation upgrades for the 98
Oddly enough for an American my first bolt action rifle was a cock-on close 1917 and I loved the ergonomics and the reasoning you explained in the video. My love of a 1917 drove me to buy a Remington model 30 which turned out to be cock on open and it drives me mildly insane so I'm very much thinking of having a gunsmith switch it to cock on close.
Thanks Bloke, this was very much indeed vaguely interesting!
very cool!! Its neat to see the engineering behind the tools.
Excellent video bloke! I've never had the pleasure of firing a bolt action rifle since getting into the world of firearms is fairly difficult in germany if you don't have a lot of money to spend, but I've always been fascinated by the different systems that people came up with for bolt actions. This was a great explanation of the strengths and weaknesses of these two ideas and what to expect from them. Now i just need to get enough money to go to a rental range (luckily there's one not too far from here) so i can finally shoot some xD
Great video Bloke. When I was shooting service rifle, I much preferred the cock on closing type. Much smoother, easier and quick. Our club members used either the SMLE or Swedish Mauser because of this factor.
Thanks. Would still love to see a mad minute or even a match video with the BMS. That thing fascinates me.
Super neat. Id love to see more old school technical videos again
I need to do some more of them...
Nerd out! Thanks Bloke.
My Swedish Mauser is cock on close. It was built in 1910 but was modified to a carbine in 1938. The straight bolt handle was bent down and works ok with a scope mount. It's pretty stiff on close but you get used to it.
Lee Rifle is the slickest bolt repeater ever made. No.4 Lee-Enfield finest old school battle rifle ever made
ergo, the proper way to make a rifle
This, absolutely. Where the Enfields excelled versus their contemporaries were the things that would become doctrinally vital: detachable box mag, higher capacity for sustained effective and suppressive fire, a faster over-all fire rate, and less occlusion of the sight picture. Even where they lost out to other rifles (primarily the Mauser's better range and accuracy at that range) they were still good enough.
“War were declared”
The Fudd Mauser accuracy claims are simply not true, the 8mm Mauser 98 figures provided by the Germans are really rather poor and are very much inferior to the SMLE, let alone the No.4... ua-cam.com/video/S7eQT9LeVeE/v-deo.html
Also the detachable box mag was only removed for cleaning, not for reloading.
My main takeaway from this is that I now know Bloke likes playing with his cocks 😂
Anyways beautiful rifles man, and thank you for the detailed explanation of the pros and cons of each
Lol
Ah a good dose of mechanical nerdery. I like the fiddly bits that go on inside guns.
Cock-on-close seems to be a simpler system from a manufacturing point of view - no cam track to cut in the bolt for it etc. But since that didn't seem to be a deal breaker even with 19th century mass production it's a bit of a moot point!
There is a cam track, it is just smaller, As Bloke mentioned, during bolt lift, the firing pin needs to be retracted back into the bolt head so it won't accidentally fire the next round as it is being stripped from the magazine and chambered.
Great video!
This vid is excellent "your mom" jokes potential...
Good job Mike
And then there are systems like the chassepot that need a manual cocking!
And I suppose lever actions are a cock on open system as well. Along with single action semi automatics, in a sense.
When you read “minor handling marks” in the description. 😂
Im weird, both "feel" fine to me. But I've spent time with all my milsurps amd gotten over the unfamiliarity bits.
There are indeed advatages and disadvantages to both, but having both in various forms is just a nice way to look at arms development of the past.
Things you can say about your rifle you can't say about yourself
"It's a Cock-on-open design"
I'd much prefer a cock in close. Real close
A video on the Toz 17 would be great.
My 3 primary service rifles are 1903a3, No4 Mk1* & FR8, I find the 1903a3 the best of all despite having shot LE actions for years prior to discovering the 03a3!
I grew up shooting rabbits with a BSA Sportsman 15 (very common .22 in NZ) so very used to a cock on close action, didn't realise that cock on open was much more common till I got older and used my brothers Remington 700 action .308 rifles.
Here for the nerdery. ;)
Always fun stuff
Another reason for cock on close is stuck cases, which happens with hot reloads and old or poorly stored ammo. It is a little easier to extract a stuck case with a cock on close. action. You are not trying to cock the weapon and fight a stuck case at the same time. I've used both and prefer the cock on close action. It just tells smoother to me.
My first time shooting bolt guns, I found that cock on open is smooth to cycle until you push forward and then all the sudden something pushes back - and it's not the cartridge feeding. It's more, it's springy, it's the firing pin spring.
It's a lee enfield, it's meant to be ran briskly. Then, it is fast.
Great video 👍
Cock on open seems the better suited for the mode user in rough conditions.
The only bolt actions I've messed with are a Savage Model 10 and a U.S. Property Savage No4 Mk1. Great rifles, but a day and night difference.
Extremely educational, thanks.
As long as you put the unjustified, unavoidable, british love for the Lee-Enfield aside ;)
Yes
You can't really say, Mr Lee is British, can you.
It's hard not to like what you grew up with....
Hmm?
One gets Slapped open!
One gets Slapped closed!
recoil
Have both, I just wish I could have more trigger time with either?
How about a video comparing the krag and lee enfields bolt speed and smoothness figured it would be a interesting piece
Excellent. Tikka, nice rifle.
Would love to see you run that BMS Cam rifle through a match
Actually I find the stock shape awkward. I initially thought I'd like to do it, but now I don't XD
Does anyone make something like that for an AR-10 bolt?
The reason it's so hard to open a Fix by Q rifle is that it is a cock on open yet it only has 45 degrees of bolt rotation at most. Primary extraction on the Fix is a lever mechanism just like the BMS Cam, so that's not the issue.
I've just looked up that rifle. I'm listening... Looks promising!
@@BlokeontheRange A lot of Fix shooters say the best way to reliably open the bolt is by putting the thumb on top the bolt, hold the bolt handle like you do a bike handle, then cam it.
@@TheOz91that’s slowing things down, though.
@@borkwoof696 Yeah, the Fix isn't fast. Q focused on making a lightweight precision rifle
The vide has surprisingly few innuendos. Here's a train of 'thought': Bolt actions are cocked from the rear. Pump actions get cocked from the front. Side chargers are a bit of both. Handguns get cocked from the top.
And when it has been properly loaded you have ... .
This is just a video to show off your bolt action collection!!
How do these compare to a Swiss K31?
Thanks for the informative video. I’m curious if the ammunition length (e.g., longer .30-06 vs shorter .308) or power/compression (e.g., .303 vs .22) favored either use of cock on open vs cock on close?
Nope, I don't see a link there.
Now you've piqued some curiosity. Cock on open/ close (or manual?) on straight pull bolt actions? I know K31 is on open. The Merkel RX Helix and Blaser R8 are manual from what I've found. Not sure about the new Savage Impulse or any others. Would be a great video but I know most of these are expensive and uncommon.
The Swiss ones are cock on open. As are the Mannlichers (contrary to popular belief, there's a video in that I'll make soon...)
On a slightly unrelated note, I wonder why striker fired semi and select fire rifles were never a thing, instead giving way to hammer fired mechanisms instead? Every military had sriker fired bolt guns, some of the earliest experimental semiautos involved self loading devices cludged onto a bolt gun and yet nothing came of it. It is perplexing because a striker mechanism would be more compact.
Vz.58 says hi! But hammers are easier to put into practice, and are gentle on the trigger components.
@BlokeontheRange But isn't that just a hammer mechanism in a linearpath instead of an arc? I can't think of a single self loading rifle with an honest to god striker assembly. The only thing I recall that comes close is the FG-42.
@@eisenkrieg553AS VAL is striker fired.
@@eisenkrieg553 Or in other words, it uses a 2-piece striker assembly (the QBZ-95 does this as well). The reason you don't want a one piece striker assembly is because unlike bolt-action rifles you'd end up with a large unsupported part that also has a really narrow protrusion on it, so it's more liable to break if something goes wrong and will be a more difficult part to manufacture. Plus, the hammer has to travel perfectly straight along its track in order not to bind in the firing pin channel- it's easier to make a firing pin channel nice and precisely than having to do that with the entire receiver.
Bolt action rifles can get away with using one piece because of where the fire control parts are in relation to everything else, the fact that they're a lot simpler (a Lee-Enfield's trigger mechanism is not meaningfully different from a Sten's- just a pivoting link, and that's all a manual-action firearm needs), the fact that the receiver's just a bored-through pipe rather than a complex stamped or milled shape, and the fact that the firing pin/striker is almost completely supported by and contained inside the bolt at all times.
I think the risks with a "pure" bolt-action style striker in a self-loader are:
- It'll hit the sear pretty hard, risking damage to either or both of bent and sear;
- If something goes wrong with the bent on the striker or the sear, you'll basically have a fixed firing pin and it'll go brrrrrrp when the bolt drops...
- In view of the previous point, far too easy to convert to full auto, you'd just have to defeat or file off the interruptor.
Very well explained, are you an educator by profession?
Nope, but my father was so it's in the blood.
Which is the Ian video with the bolt failing? I don't remember that one.
The main thing that I know is that if you learn on one type of action, the other just plain feels WRONG for a while. Me, I learned on SMLE's and cock on bolt lift just doesn't feel right.
AN 03A3
I've shot most of the old bolt action military rifles and my hands down favorite is the Lee Enfield, just much faster than any other bolt action, (including the Swiss straight pulls), combined with high capacity and good sights. What I'd ideally like to see is a cross between the #4mk2 and the Indian 2A1 fitted with an FAL mag. The peep sights from the #4 mated to the 7.62x51 from the 2A1.
Aside from the magazine, like this you mean? :) ua-cam.com/video/dFA3SGO2AU0/v-deo.html
Hey bloke, I want to know your opinion on this there are these whistle fidget toys called goat guns that are completely harmless, but they have been deemed as dangerous firearms by the Australian government and they are now completely banned to you. What is your view on that?
Sorry, I am hearing about them now for the first time.
@@BlokeontheRange k
CoO is safer. The firing pin cannot protrude at any time the bolt is unlocked, but with CoC there is a possibility of an unlocked discharge with the bolt ran forward rapidly if the trigger sear doesn't catch the striker assembly properly (dirt, broken parts, bolt not fully cycled). With CoO, a failure of the sear to engage will just slowly drop the firing pin on the primer as the bolt is locked. It is this reason alone that caused Paul Mauser to design his "98" with CoO instead of the successful CoC system he had been using. Is there a practical difference in normal use? Not really, just work all bolts decisively and you won't have a problem with any of them.
That's simply not true though... The failure of the sear to engage will have the same effect in each type of system.
@@BlokeontheRange Nope- it's you who have erred. If the sear doesn't engage at all, with CoC the firing pin will protrude from the bolt regardless of what position the bolt is in. With CoO, the striker and firing pin is withheld by the bolt once unlocked, and does NOT protrude till you begin lowering the bolt handle to lock it. Simply put, without a firing pin there to poke the primer there is no way a cartridge can fire. Apparently you've never watched how the striker moves as you work a bolt with the trigger pulled back. Give it a try on an unloaded gun and you'll see for yourself.
"If the sear doesn't engage at all, with CoC the firing pin will protrude from the bolt regardless of what position the bolt is in." This is simply not the case. The cam is simply shallower on CoC than CoO, exactly to prevent the firing pin from protruding until the bolt is fully locked. The firing pin is held back from the bolt face when unlocked in both systems.
Look more closely at the video when I show the P14/M17 bolt.
You seem to be under the impression that in a CoC system the firing pin protrudes from the breech face until the bent engages the sear. This is simply not the case, would be dangerous, would prevent controlled feed, and would result in firing pins being damaged.
Have a look at this video too: ua-cam.com/video/FE9IzjaTq3o/v-deo.html
I rather like the cock on close on my #4 MK 1. Still deer hunt with it.
What about, "cocks at the very end of the actions travel, and if you don't completely open it, it will eject the case, load a new cartridge, but then not fire, or even worse, slam fire when you squeeze the lever"?
Refer back to "work it like you mean it"!
I think he was referring to certain semiautos that will do that.
Ive seen it stated multiple places that cock on opening offers more primary extraction and i dont see how that makes any sense at all.
It's quite the opposite...
@@BlokeontheRange Interest. I wouldn't have suspected it to make any difference at all. Maybe require more or less force from the user but that's it.
Yup, cock on opening requires more force cos you have to overcome the striker spring too, which is not insignificant. All other things being equal (which they're often not).
Do you have any hard data on lock time between Lee-Enfields and other contemporary service rifles?
Nope, but it will vary in any case depending on how strong the spring is. If you're in the zone, you can definitely perceive the difference in lock time between the old mil rifles and something modern with a short striker travel.
Is Bloke a closeted Finn??? He pronounced Tikka to well.
Spend enough time there ;)
Bloke, how rare are left-handed bolts, action rifles Do they make them and can you get one
Modern left-handed bolt actions are easy to come by. I'm not going to buy one though cos I'm right handed :)
Can a cock-on-open be readily converted to cock-on-close and vice-versa?
Fully autistic nerdery is the best kind of nerdery.
If you are left handed working a right bolt. The cock on close is easier for reaching over with the left hand (the weakest portion of that method is the opening).
Course the winner is a k31 with lh adaptor! Trouble with that is first time I used that I whacked myself in the nose!
Trying to keep the number of rifles down? Hmm. Still, this counts as Enfield nerdery so back to the proper purpose of this channel.
Funny that there is so much debate on action speed, when most shooters don't have the skill to cycle an action against their shoulder, with their eyes on the sights. Until you can do that, your opinion is moot.
Spoiler: I can very much do that 😘
Is this a French thing? 😁
Thank you for the interesting video. But I am curious, are you not residing in Britain, which is as close to an open dictatorship you can come?
How are you able to have all those rifles? Are you born into the elite or do the weapons belong to other people?
I am not residing in Britain
Now ask us about how many school, church, shopping centre mass shootings we've had in the UK this year. As someone residing in Britain, who owned section 1 bolt action rifles for nearly twenty years and at no point needed to use them to defend my life, freedom or property, I'm perfectly content with UK firearms' laws. Most people in modern, civilised society don't actually need and usually shouldn't have access to firearms in any form. Those who do have a valid and justifiable reason should be mature enough to accept the potetional risk of objects explicitly and specifically created to inflict harm. If you aren't one of those people, if you have a temper tantrum when society considers your hobby as representing an unacceptable risk to others, then in my estimation you aren't a suitable person to have access to firearms either.
What is wrong with you?
@@jonprince3237
I won't, but if I had all these guns were in my house, I would have the greatest amusement in taking them apart to see how the different rifles worked.
Then trying to work out which bit belonged to which as I tried to rearrange them.
@@jonprince3237 Well, for repsonsible mature individuals the government is only in the way, stopping you and stripping you of your freedoms. Here in Sweden all firecrackers are now illegal because communists argued that if we forbid it for everyone, then the idiots won’t blow their fingers off.
Now I understand people that don’t trust themselves, people that won’t risk their health or life to intervene and help others, people that want the government to be their mommy. That is fine, our society wiil always have weak individuals, but we should not let cowards and immature people decide for those that make your freedom exist.
Pretty much every genocide has been done by governments, and what will you do when the police comes to take your wife away for not bowing down to the HBQT flag, will you applaud so to not loose your privileges, or will you use whatever means you have to stand up for what is right.
Choose wisely, cause your choices do have real consequences.
gay...
Good vid, bloke. I'll take a cock-on-close Enfield action, because it makes more sense!
I'll add a sideways question... Folk say "don't dry-fire, you may break the firing pin!"
In the Army, I was taught to "Ease springs" (Off safe, fire the action, On safe) ...as the end of Unload.
I reckon, it's metal designed to be in an explosive situation... it's strong enough!
What do you say??
Depends on the firearm, some do have an issue, but as a general rule military rifles were dry fired constantly in service / training and if there were a problem someone would have noticed it by now other than the anti-dry-firing Fudds.
As a general rule, if dry firing has parts touching that shouldn't touch when live firing, don't do it.
Namely rimfires can have firing pins impacting chambers and percussion guns have the hammer impacting the nipple. Both of which can be very bad.
Also be aware that, no matter the gun, dry firing puts wear on it so, yes things can and will break dry firing. But those are generally things that would break anyway during live firing (i.e. firing pins will always wear out). So if you don't have reliable replacement parts, you probably shouldn't fire it more than necessary, live or dry.
Thanks! Good work by the way. Well done. @@BlokeontheRange