Actually, is the same as in English for words as "this". It's just the voiced version of the found in words like "math". And the use of is actually logic with German. Like in school "gymnasium". In German is often pronounced /y/. Oh yeah, I wrote /y/ because that's the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) letter for that sound. Which is reason 2 of why it makes sense. In IPA, "gymansium" would look something like /ɡʏmˈnaːzi̯ʊm/ (actually it's not exactly a /y/ but it's close enough… the /y/ sound is also found in French though).
One good way to understand the U with an umlaut (or the Sindarin Y) is to say "EEEEEEEEE" with your lips shaped like you're trying to say "OOOOOOOOOO" (like oo in shoot). This is the pronunciation for the unlauted U in German and is probably why the notes you reference say what they did about pronouncing the Sindarin Y. Interestingly, in German the Y has a very similar sound. Words like "typisch" sound very much like, "tooooopisch." Thanks for the videos!
I don't know if that helps you, but I speak german, and in german, the letters Y, E;Ü and I (as in machine) are very close relatives in their pronounciation. Actually, if you say the alphabet in german and come to Y, you will call it "üpsilon", which is close to the greek root word "epsilon". You have to understand that in german, the letters E and I stand very close to each other - they are distinguished by a certain form of mouth-modulation. On top of that, the letter Ü ist a mix of U and E in German, as if you spoke "ue" in one quick flow, and this is actually how you type it if your keyboard doesn't support umlauts. Umlauts are "mixed letters". So you can replace ü with ue if you need to, and you will get a better feeling for the equal emphasis on both letters in the combination.. Native english speakers often tend to give a little more emphasis to the u and less to the e (including you -.no offense, it's very common), since they see a U with dots. This is why you have the feeling that Ü is farther away from the e and its very close relative - y - , and closer to the letter u. However, they meet right in the middle, and once you know that, the vowel modulation will be closer to the I that you find in machine.
Andrew Eder Welcome. I like your videos and their calm style - very educational im my opinion. Great voice, too. You don't happen to sing, do you? Coming full circle to elvish: Because of the Umlaute rule, a lot of germans who try to say "mae govannen" will pronounce it "mä govannen". --> Ae = ä , oe = ö, ue = ü. < And about the y - : think of the word "syndicate" or "symbol". The Y in these words is veeery similar to the typical ü -umlaut in german.
The Sindarin Y gets its spelling from Old English and IPA. This sound, /y/ is actually very very close to /i/. It's identical except for the lips, which are pursed. That's why I tell people to make an /i/ in their mouth and a /u/ with their lips. The Gondorians can't pronounce this vowel, so they say their /y/s like /i/s, dropping the rounding (pursed lips) from the vowel. This actually happened in English - all front vowels became un-rounded. This is why the Old English word "kyn" is "kin" today. It also means that people are mispronouncing Éowyn's name. ;)
Tolkien was particularly well-versed in Old Germanic languages, especially Old English. In OE the letter encodes exactly the sound as the German letter . Moreover, the letter is derived from the Greek alphabet where it equally stands for this sound, it is called /ypsilon/ there. Last but not least it is also the symbol of the aforesaid sound in the IPA. I didn't quite understand what you mean by changing to , but phonetically there is not much of a difference between the two sounds. An /y/ is the same as an /i/ with the only difference that the lips aren't spread but rounded.
I have studied German, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic, etc so all this pronunciation is easy to me too. Thank you for making these videos brother because you are cool and easily understood and you make it fun and easy. Again, Le hannon mellon!
Wow this video is from 2015. It's 2018 and I discovered it just now. It's an amazing video. The easiest to understand for me. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you for this.
That's great dude! Thanks a lot. I'm from Brazil and it's so much easy for us ️to pronunciate when our main lenguage is Portuguese. Please keep doing this videos! Len hannon mellon nin.
Aiya! Awesome! When i was studying quenya I found your first video and now I am addicted about them all. Please, keep going with this videos, they are very interesting and incredibles. Greetings from Brazil! Tenn enomentielva.
In some occasions the letter Y is actually pronounced Ü in German. For example Xylophon is pronounced Xülophon. I think in some Scandinavian languages, which are the languages Elvish is based on, it is also pronounced like ü.
Isnt Y and Ü said exactly the same way? I mean I am Finnish and Estonian and they both say them exactly the same. Its like it wouldnt matter if I wrote the estonian word "külaline" like "kylaline".. Because, its the same lol
+The5streetThe Yes, in some languages it's always pronounced ü. In German it is sometimes pronounced as ü, sometimes as i and in very rare occasions like the English y when it's the first letter of a word, as in "year".
The origin of this pronunciation is greek ! (In French we call it “greek i”) This letter : “υ” became “y” with the time and the modifications it brings but it stayed pronounced ü in german like it was in greek. I guess it’s the same for northern language? I’m not sure for this part ^^
The emphasis for Elvish words that are three or more syllables varies. If the last two syllables are connected by one or no consonants, the 3rd to last syllable gets the emphasis. If it is two or more consonants, then the 2nd to last gets the emphasis. However, one must keep in mind that in Sindarin and Quenya, the combos "th", "dh" and "nd" are expressed with one letter. So although is-IL-dur is how you would pronounce that name, EL-en-dil and VAL-an-dil follow the one consonant rule since "nd" is one letter in Quenya. The combo "mb" is one letter in Quenya, but not in Sindarin. So cel-eb-RIM-bor is probably the correct pronunciation of that name since it is Sindarin.
When I read the Hobbit and the Lotr Trilogy as a kid I pronounced all the place names typically Swedish. Later when I see all these videos of how they're supposed to be pronounced it is very similar to the way I have always pronounced them in my head. Not exaclty but much closer than how English and American people usually pronounce it in their languages.
As an Estonian, we pronounce all those letters just the same way as in sindarin so it comes really easy. i also speak a bit finnish and russian so learning a new language comes quite naturally to me. But i really love your videos. Im just a tad under 2years late with my comment. Keep it going anyways. best of luck!
The Sindarin "y" is sound is what linguists call a close front rounded vowel, that is, it's pronounced in the same way as a Sindarin "i", but with the lips rounded. The best way I've heard this described is that your lips are saying "u" and your tongue is saying "i" at the same time. The German "ü" is pronounced in the same way, but the Romanization is different. Whereas Tolkien opted for the more Finnish spelling, using the "y" (which, incidentally, is also the IPA character representing that sound), Germans use "ü" because the sound has a somewhat complicated history there. It was originally a digraph, "ue", because it marked a phonological process in German (and many other German languages) called umlaut (hence the different name for the diaresis), wherein a vowel underwent a mutation depending on its environment. The German umlaut fronted back vowels, meaning that vowels like "u" and "o", when paired with a front vowel like "i" or "e", had their position in the mouth moved to the front, but the rounding was kept. So the tongue moved to the "i/e" position, but the lips stayed rounded, hence the modern sound. The diaresis on top of the "u" is just an old scribe notation that ended up being used for efficiency's sake. Compare this to Finnish, which uses "y". Ancient Classical Greek had this same sound, represented by their upsilon, which came into the Latin alphabet as "y", hence why Finnish and other languages with this sound use "y" instead of "ü". TL;DR: German "ü" and Sindarin "y" are the same sound, just spelled differently. Tolkien probably used "y" over "ü" because English speakers will naturally pronounce it as "i" and therefore still be half-correct, and because English typewriters didn't have a "ü" on it.
Tolkien used the Finnish pronunciation of Y (Similar to French 'u') because as a linguist he was fascinated by Finnish language and used it as inspiration for his Elvish. Probably where rolling the R comes as well! (I'm Finnish myself)
The Sindarin vowel sound for is like the German *ü* (IPA /ʏ/~/y/: when saying ihh/eeee while the lips position for uuuu/oooo) as in the song title *Für Elise*.
I hope you make more of these videos. They're very good, from what I can see, seeing as I am just learning it, I'm no expert. But I must prefer to learn languages from seeing people speak them, with the texting, and not many videos I have seen have both those. Feel free to tell me if you make more. ^^
I know this video is quite old by now but: /y/ is pronounced as /i/ but with rounded lips. So the tongue is held high and forward (like in /i/) but the lips are rounded (as in /u/, /o/, etc.). Also the dh /ð/ is pronounced as the th /θ/, but voiced instead of voiceless, so your vocal chords will vibrate while saying it like in the English words there, then, thou, heathen, among others. Hope this helps!
In German, the letters Ü and Y sound the same in most of the words. The letter Y is also the phonetical symbol for the letter Ü (or the French U). Hence the confusion. The reason Elvish Ü can be pronounced /i/ is because /y/ (phonetical transcription of Ü) shares common phonetical features with /i/ (for instance, some French teachers tell their students to pronounce an EE-sound while shaping their mouth as though pronouncing an O, in order to get the pronunciation of U right).
On the subject of Y=ü, ü is a combination of the vowels i+u. In the International Phonetic Alphabetic, the symbol [i] stands for the long "ee" sound in English, so you would make that sound with your tongue while making an [u] with your lips. The result is a mix vowel between [i] and [u] which is probably why they said that making the [i] sound is an acceptable replacement.
I think you’ve already heard it but the Y becomes an ü because the Greek letter gamma is also the Y and was used to create the ü sound in old Greek. That is how the Y becomes an ü. And in Dutch you can pronounce the Y two ways: like a y in yo-yo and an ‘I’ as in ‘irritating’ , so that’s maybe why Elves say the Y like an u and an I? (Also, in Dutch we pronounce the u like an ü and an ü like an u-u (when the vowels “bump”). But that’s a whole other story. ) I don’t think this makes it any easier but only more confusing but whatever I liked to share.
A Hilgeman No, but I know the international phonetic alphabet and the pronunciation that Sindarin's phonology page on Wikipedia describes is [ð], which is pronounced like th in "this". The pronunciation that the man in the video describes would look like [dð] in the IPA, and I have no idea how he came to the conclusion that it'd sound like that.
You are correct. In the back of the silmarillion there is a page on pronunciations and it states exactly what you said DH is pronounced like the TH in then.
Maybe it would be helpful to focus, not on ideas like 'hard' or 'soft', but on what your larynx is doing as you say these sounds. If it is vibrating, the sound is ∂ as in 'these' . . . voiced. (Or 'sonant', if your textbook is a bit older.) If the larynx in NOT vibrating, the sound is unvoiced (or 'surd'), as in 'thorn'. [Which is also, I think, the name of the Rune for this sound.]
Thank you. Yes, that was weird the minute he said it. Some study into phonemics would certainly help! The pair this/thin (DH/TH) is the most obvious one, and I've generally relied on it. DH/TH voiced/voiceless pairs aren't common in English, but they do have some verb/noun combos that differ like this, and for some bizarre reason indicate the voiced (DH, verb) version by adding an E: breathe/breath, sheathe/sheath, bathe/bath, loathe/loath The problem is that the vowel also changes. sheathe/sheath and loathe/loath don't change, but breedh/breth, baydh/bath.
the thing with Y in german is that you can use it in 3 different ways. You can use it like the german umlaut Ü in some words, then like the german I (wich is pronounced exactly like the elvish I. actually ALL the vowels in elvish except the diphtongs are pronounced the same in german) AND you can use it like the german J (which is used differently in german than in english. It's actually used like similarly to the Y at the start of words like "Yes")
very nice video, just like last time. I don't remember you mentioning you've read and/or own a copy of the Silmarillion? there are some notes on pronunciation in there that i personally found very useful. Looking forward to the next one, assuming there will be more (will there? :D)
You should make a part three giving more Sindarin phrases it would be helpful because I am making a story that involves elves and it would be awesome to you know, be able to type or write in Sindarin for the story.
I have only scanned the comments But Sindarin is supposed to be a mix of Welsh and Finnish according to Tolkien documentary I just watched. This is from the Tolkeingateway page Tolkien based the sound and some of the grammar of his Noldorin/Sindarin on Welsh, and Sindarin displays of the consonant mutations that characterise the Celtic (especially Brythonic) languages. The language was also probably influenced to an extent by the Germanic languages, as Tolkien was a scholar of both Old English and Old Norse.
Hey Andrew. Interestingly, I found when doing my research that whenever we see DH in Elvish, it is a soft TH sound like in Leather, rather than a stronger TH sound like in though.Cheers mate, keep up with these vids. I even credited you in my essay haha
I guess that's also where the switchimg for the y comes from. in welsh y can be an ee sound (for example as y forforwyn) or a urgh sound (like the word yn) there really are a lot of similarities between the pronunciations of welsh and sindarin
it did help a bit, thx. I all-ready know a few sentences. I'm not sure how to spell it. i know menmgongurring which means an elvish blade, and nor na ni ner nuir which means close the gaits. and nin dice which means your late.
In ancient greek upsilon (written as a u or a capital Y) was pronounced as a german dotted u, the y in a lot of our words in english in fact derives from the greek u (or upsilon) like syringe or Egypt, or mostly wherever the y is in the middle of the word. Furthermore when teaching ancient greek in classical schools often you are encouraged to use an ee sound like in tree when the proper german u sound is too difficult
3:45 - Y comes from Greek and the German ü is pronounced like it. In fact, in Spanish, the letter is called "Greek i." Pronounce Sindarin Y like EE with your lips rounded.
From what I remember, and I could be wrong, but I believe the multiple Y pronunciations were due to some of the accents that developed within middle earth. I'm pretty sure the u with umlauts was the correct pronunciation that was spoken by the elves, but the long e pronunciation was from the men (Gondorians if I remember correctly) because they were unable to make that sound and therefore just swapped the u umlaut with the long e. I speak German and have no reason to believe that the switch would have anything to do with the German language, but as many of the commentors have mentioned, there may be a connection with Finnish.
Just one thought on the y=ü, in Dutch the long i is ij, which is pronounced as 'eye' and is often used interchangeably with y. Written it looks quite like the ü but with a tail
I think the Y being pronounced with the "ew" kind of thing echoes the ancient Greek version of the letter epsilon (ypsilon) which scholars believe was pronounced sort of like the "ew".
Salaam and Mae govannen! Pretty sure the DH is actually just the English TH sound in “the” as opposed to the TH in “think”. In old English these would have been represented by two different letters. It’s incidentally also two different letters in Arabic for these two different sounds. They are both produced the same way but one is voiced and the other unvoiced. :-)
I can explain the "ü"/"i" thing. I learned this in voice lessons. You pronounce the German "ü" by saying the Sindarin "i"/ ee sound with your lips pursed as though you were going to make a "u". So shape your lips as though you were going to say "you" and then say "e" instead. (I believe this is also why, when reciting the French alphabet, the name of the letter E is pronounced in a way that sounds more like "uhh" to English speakers.)
Well, Y sounds like an influence from northern germanic languages such as Icelandic and Old Norse, also Old English (which Tolkien had studied) since the letter y in all those languages is pronounced like this. My town in Northern England's original name was Heahbyrgen, it has that sound :)
Regarding the Y, it's most likely because in the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), the symbol that represents the 'deep oo' (don't know how to do umlauts!) is a lower case y. And I presume that people substitute 'ee' for it because those two vowel sounds actually make up a pair; the former being pronounced with rounded lips and the latter being unrounded. It makes sense from technical stand point, and I imagine Tolkien to be very technical with his conlangs!
I know exactly why. We have this in Welsh, my native language. 'Y' is pronounced as our 'u' if it's towards the end of the word. You are right that this sounds like the German u, but it's not exactly the same as what we have in Welsh. It mostly pronounced in the Northern Welsh dialect. If people cannot pronounce the 'u' sound, then they can make a pretty close sound by saying the 'i' in 'sit'.
The substitution of "i" for "y = ü" is easy if you think of German ü (which also occurs in French *tu*) thus: round your lips for "oo" [food, boot], then _without moving lips_, say "ee". The substitution then consists of -- not rounding your lips!
From the Middle earth map, youn can see where Tolkien borrowed and twisted words Barad dur (Barod Twr) Ready tower {the tower that is willing and ready} | Caras Galadhon (Carais Galad hon) This hard love {I loved her so much} | Carn Dûm (Garn) Hilt | Celduin ('Cel dwyn') hidden steal [A hidden loot {a hidden treasure}] | Dol Amroth (Dolen 'Dol' Am Rhodd) Link that was given {Ring that was given} | Dol Guldur (Dolen 'Dol' Gul twr) Link of the thin tower {Ring of the narrow tower} | Druwaith Laur (Dri waith lawr) Three times down | Edhellond (Adael Lond) leave full | Eglarest (Eglurest) Enlighten | Eldalondë (Dalon De) Pay South | Ephel Brandir (Bran Dir) Crow land | Esgaroth (Garoth) He loved | Emyn muil (Emyn Mil) 'A thousand Hymns' or 'A hymn of a thousand' | Enedwaith (Enid Waith) Birthing work | Ered Mithrin (Meithrin) Nourish | Gondolin (Dolen Gron) round link {Round ring} | Gulf of Lhun (Llyn) [[A peninsula on the north West coast of Wales]] | Harlond (Har lond) full tilth [[filled fertile soil]] | Havens of Sirion (Sirion) Shires | Icebay of Forochel (For ochel) Sea guard | Linhir (lin hir) Long kneel | Minas Morgul (Mynnais Mor Gul) 'Persistence of the narrow sea' or ''Such narrow persistence' | Minas Tirith (Mynnais Tiraeth) Persistence of continuation | Minhiriath (Min Hiraeth) Longing Point | Moria (Middle-earth) (Moria) Voyage | Mordor (Mor dor) Such a Breach, Such Breach | Osgiliath (Osgiliad) oscillation | Orodruin (Oro drwyn) Festering nose {Festering tip} | Pinnath Gelin (Pennaeth Gelyn) Head of the enemy | Rhun (Rhun) [c. 547 - c. 586 King Rhun Hir ap Maelgwn (Long Rhun son of Maelgwn) of Gwynedd, Wales] | Rivendell (rhwyfen dal) Rowing keep | Rómenna (Rho Menna) Give Menna [[the name has different origins but is also seen in Welsh, Menna is a feminine name]] | Rhovanion (Rhof Anian) I give to nature | Tirion (Tirion) Pleasant/Gentle
I'm german and in our language the y is often pronounced like an ü. I can't explain why it could be that way but that's just how I learned it. For example: Die Analyse => the analysis
I love your voice and your subject knowledge. I can feel the passion you have for these topics despite the "nerdiness" as you put it. :P Seriously though, great videos man. If you are doing this for fun, then know you just made someone's day. Keep it up!
the y sound in elvish becomes a ee sound because y is just ee rounded same position as ee in your mouth but your lips are like a o thats why it becomes a ee cause its similar in mouth position even though it dont sound like it hope this helps
If Tolkien based the Y (ooooh) from the Koine Greek upsilon, then that makes sense as upsilon is either Y or u in Koine Greek. For in Koine Greek the upper case for a Y "upsilon" is the same for the lower case u "upsilon", thus whether one uses an upper case Y "upsilon" or a lower case "upsilon", as with any language, the pronunciation stays the same in Koine Greek, oooooh . I hope this helps. I have a tough time spelling Tolkiens u or ooooh linguistically within the English language. The only way to spell it is something akin to a you-ooh exceptionally hard or just simply ooooh. And if he used this sound for the letter Y, from a Greek perspective this would make total sense. In other words the Y and the u are the same sound in Koine Greek since one is upper case ooh and the other, lower case ooooh. I know that this is really rudimentary, but I hope that it helps. Oh and thank you with the f pronunciation of names in the end in Sindarin. I have heard Finarfin's name pronounced Finarvin, and now I know why, Thanks.
Dh is just spoken as th but with voice, like in "the" or "this" (in IPA you'd use [ð]) And here the explanation for pronouncing y: You speak it like German ü, that's right, it's transcripted as y because of ancient greek, where you speek y like the German ü (in German you do that too, also in IPA it's [y]). If you can't pronounce y the next best letters would be u or i or ui/ue together, why? 1. u: u is the nearest sound to y 2. i: i is the nearest sound to y too 3. ui/ue: the combination of these sounds as diphtong createdin many languages the sound y (e.g. old norse: þiutiskaz -> þýzkr).
y is pronounced as ü because y in German is pronounced üpsilon. the two dots over the u are umlauts ä =ah mit Umlauten which means a with umlauts. it causes it to have that oo sound like in loot
Hi, Andrew. I'm German so I can tell you the part with the y. In Germany we say for "y" "ypsilon" and the y in ypsilon sounds like "ü". I don't know, if it's correct, but it sounds logical sooo...
German native here. It all sounds to me like Tolkien used a sound and annotation system quite close to the German one alltogether, because all those sounds would be transcribed in pretty much those ways in German, which as a result for English speakers look nonintuitive but for German speakers they don't even provoke questioning. The reason why Y=Ü is because (coming from Greek) /y/ is mostly pronounced "ü", like in "Ypsilon, hyper, ...". Explaining why it is substitutable with "i" ("ee") if you can't say "ü" is also logical, because phonetically "i" and "ü" are the closest sounds (compare IPA charts), they actually have the same way to to be formed in the mouth with the sole difference that with the "ü" your lips are rounded (like o and u). The visual resemblence to /u/ has rather phonological reasons, because in many inflection paradigms /u/ and /ü/ alternate and only get dots as a result rather than changing the whole letter.
I always read the DH was more of a soft TH like "then or the" and the TH more harder like "think" greek speakers have that difference in dh and th too also i believe elvish being heavily inspired by welsh and they have the dd as the DH sound
P.S. about the Y just looked at my appendix and they it's more like a HJ sound like in "huge or hew" so really close to ü? looking at online lists they do say ü but i don'T know why also sorry if you already know all this, just noticed the date this video was made...
So the Y being a German u'/umlaut thing actually comes from Welsh. Tolkien was a big fan of Welsh and I've done a little studying. All U's in welsh are pronounced by forming an 'oo' sound with your lips, but saying an 'ee' sound in your mouth. Y is the IPA symbol for this sound. In welsh they call this sound "i bedhol" which means "I horseshoe" and they call a regular I, "i dot". The welsh consider them to be similar(like U and W in english). So when he says that Y and I and interchangeable it's cause they're actually kinda similar.
For DH, it is the same sound as the English ‘the’, or ‘they’, just it has its own letters. For the ‘y’, it was pronounced as an ‘ee’ sound by the Gondorians as they too had trouble pronouncing the ‘y’ sound - basically ‘y’ is pronounced like the German ü by the elves, and ‘ee’/Sindarin ‘i’ by mortals! I am not an expert so I may still be wrong!
Regarding the "Y", pronounced "ü". Tolkien did not resort only to celtic or germanic roots, but also to mediterranean ones, specially in the way the spoken words are represented by signs (the written words). I have identified in your videos (and others) that Tolkien chose a variety of sounds (present in, but not exclusive of, ancient greek) and wrote them in the way romans signified them using the latin "abecedario" (nerdy note: the latin "ABC..." sequence is not an "alphabet", the word "alphabet" relates to the greek "alpha-beta-gamma..."sequence, but you have no equivalent word in english as we do in latin-derived languages). So, the letter pronounced"fi" in greek, would preserve in latin a distinctive pair of signs: "PH" (second nerdy note: the sign "F" is not latin, nor greek, but came from the East and was later incorporated to the "abecedario"). The letter written "X" (which has no equivalent sound in english, but does in sindarin, as you have explained), would be written in the latin "abecedario" as "CH". The greek letter named "kappa" was signified in its capital modality as "K", and was sometimes written in the latin "abecedario" as "k", but sometimes as "c", preserving the sound "k", just as in sindarin (at least in many words, though there is an academic discussion regarding others). And so forth. The "Y" (which, by the way, in spanish is known as "greek i"), derives directly, and even preserved the written sign, from the greek capital "Ypsilon" (another coincidence: its minor sign is very similar to our "u"). The greek sound for the "upsilon" does not exist in english, nor in spanish, but it has a relatively close equivalent in french: the way the word "eau" (water) is pronounced. In german, the "ü" has kept a similar sound, as in the word "über". Match the french "eau" and the german sound for "ü" in "über" (as in Deustchland über alles), and you'll be very close to the ancient greek "Y", which Tolkien seems to have incorporated to sindarin. I believe that's the small piece you're missing. Great video!
So I took Spanish in school and the summer after my first year of taking it I watched this video and I recognized that the vowels A, E, I are pronounced ah, eh, ee the same way they are in Spanish.
I figured out your "Y" quandry. Looking at most words containing that letter, the pronounciation closest to "uh" in English makes most sense. For example, "Ylfdan" would be pronounced "Uhlfdahn", and "Eryn" would be "Erehn" as in "pull" or "lull" or "sole", not "oo" as in "Rhun" or "tune", and "not "uhh" as in "run" or "puppy". I refer you to two sites for reference: www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_grammar.htm www.ambar-eldaron.com/english/downloads/sindarin-english.pdf
Th is the voiceless dental fricative /θ/ as in think. The dh is the voiced dental fricative /ð/ as in thing or then. Well, in “think” your voice is not vibrating, I guess, and in “then” it is. That's where the “voiced” and “voiceless” parts come from. ^-^
Learning the pronunciation isn't going to be an issue. Here in the Netherlands we already have rolling r's and the 'ch' which is really hard for you English people XD same thing goes for the a, i, e and o. And the u we know from German, so yeah :D Finally my Latin and ancient greek will be of use to me!
Please contribute to Sindarin for Duolingo! It is a great way to spread the language.
IT'S ON DUOLINGO OH BOI IVE NOT KNOWN ALL THIS TIME
@@curtislevey7639 what? Did they just add it???
@@tomrogue13 unfortunately not! They have Klingon and high Valerian, but not Elvish 😞
Why hasn’t this happened yet!!
@@curtislevey7639 no it isn't
Speaking Welsh, I could totally pronounce and speak Sindarin with ease
In the film, I can hear their English accents. It's similar as to when English people have learnt Welsh
True
Rwilliams it sounds like there's some galic in the language
Isn't the y pronounced like an ü similar to Welsh?
Caelan actually Quenya is based on Finnish
Actually, is the same as in English for words as "this". It's just the voiced version of the found in words like "math".
And the use of is actually logic with German. Like in school "gymnasium". In German is often pronounced /y/. Oh yeah, I wrote /y/ because that's the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) letter for that sound. Which is reason 2 of why it makes sense. In IPA, "gymansium" would look something like /ɡʏmˈnaːzi̯ʊm/ (actually it's not exactly a /y/ but it's close enough… the /y/ sound is also found in French though).
Aaaahh, the elvish word for Orcs (Yrch) make a lot more sense now.
One good way to understand the U with an umlaut (or the Sindarin Y) is to say "EEEEEEEEE" with your lips shaped like you're trying to say "OOOOOOOOOO" (like oo in shoot). This is the pronunciation for the unlauted U in German and is probably why the notes you reference say what they did about pronouncing the Sindarin Y. Interestingly, in German the Y has a very similar sound. Words like "typisch" sound very much like, "tooooopisch."
Thanks for the videos!
I don't know if that helps you, but I speak german, and in german, the letters Y, E;Ü and I (as in machine) are very close relatives in their pronounciation. Actually, if you say the alphabet in german and come to Y, you will call it "üpsilon", which is close to the greek root word "epsilon". You have to understand that in german, the letters E and I stand very close to each other - they are distinguished by a certain form of mouth-modulation. On top of that, the letter Ü ist a mix of U and E in German, as if you spoke "ue" in one quick flow, and this is actually how you type it if your keyboard doesn't support umlauts. Umlauts are "mixed letters". So you can replace ü with ue if you need to, and you will get a better feeling for the equal emphasis on both letters in the combination.. Native english speakers often tend to give a little more emphasis to the u and less to the e (including you -.no offense, it's very common), since they see a U with dots. This is why you have the feeling that Ü is farther away from the e and its very close relative - y - , and closer to the letter u. However, they meet right in the middle, and once you know that, the vowel modulation will be closer to the I that you find in machine.
karaokefreak1 That's really interesting! Thanks for the comment!
Andrew Eder
Welcome. I like your videos and their calm style - very educational im my opinion. Great voice, too. You don't happen to sing, do you? Coming full circle to elvish: Because of the Umlaute rule, a lot of germans who try to say "mae govannen" will pronounce it "mä govannen". --> Ae = ä , oe = ö, ue = ü. <
And about the y - : think of the word "syndicate" or "symbol". The Y in these words is veeery similar to the typical ü -umlaut in german.
Ach hallo ich bin auch deutsch bin zurzeit aber in Australien 😂
The Sindarin Y gets its spelling from Old English and IPA. This sound, /y/ is actually very very close to /i/. It's identical except for the lips, which are pursed. That's why I tell people to make an /i/ in their mouth and a /u/ with their lips.
The Gondorians can't pronounce this vowel, so they say their /y/s like /i/s, dropping the rounding (pursed lips) from the vowel. This actually happened in English - all front vowels became un-rounded. This is why the Old English word "kyn" is "kin" today. It also means that people are mispronouncing Éowyn's name. ;)
Tolkien was particularly well-versed in Old Germanic languages, especially Old English. In OE the letter encodes exactly the sound as the German letter . Moreover, the letter is derived from the Greek alphabet where it equally stands for this sound, it is called /ypsilon/ there. Last but not least it is also the symbol of the aforesaid sound in the IPA.
I didn't quite understand what you mean by changing to , but phonetically there is not much of a difference between the two sounds. An /y/ is the same as an /i/ with the only difference that the lips aren't spread but rounded.
I have studied German, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic, etc so all this pronunciation is easy to me too. Thank you for making these videos brother because you are cool and easily understood and you make it fun and easy. Again, Le hannon mellon!
Wow this video is from 2015. It's 2018 and I discovered it just now. It's an amazing video. The easiest to understand for me. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you for this.
That's great dude! Thanks a lot. I'm from Brazil and it's so much easy for us ️to pronunciate when our main lenguage is Portuguese. Please keep doing this videos! Len hannon mellon nin.
Aiya! Awesome! When i was studying quenya I found your first video and now I am addicted about them all. Please, keep going with this videos, they are very interesting and incredibles. Greetings from Brazil! Tenn enomentielva.
In some occasions the letter Y is actually pronounced Ü in German. For example Xylophon is pronounced Xülophon. I think in some Scandinavian languages, which are the languages Elvish is based on, it is also pronounced like ü.
Isnt Y and Ü said exactly the same way? I mean I am Finnish and Estonian and they both say them exactly the same. Its like it wouldnt matter if I wrote the estonian word "külaline" like "kylaline".. Because, its the same lol
+The5streetThe Yes, in some languages it's always pronounced ü. In German it is sometimes pronounced as ü, sometimes as i and in very rare occasions like the English y when it's the first letter of a word, as in "year".
The Swedish y is similar to the German ü.
The origin of this pronunciation is greek ! (In French we call it “greek i”)
This letter : “υ” became “y” with the time and the modifications it brings but it stayed pronounced ü in german like it was in greek. I guess it’s the same for northern language? I’m not sure for this part ^^
Shame I'm finding this guy so late on.. also shame he didn't continue this series! I want more!
Did you see that you're famous? See the WIRED UA-cam video: Accent Expert Breaks Down 6 Fictional Languages From Film & TV
ecsciguy79 I did see that! I was surprised and delighted to say the least.
Please make a part three your tutorials are the best out there i need your help!
Fan of the 501st I see.. Thanks for the amazing nerdy content. We have to stick together you know. Keep it up, you're getting places!
The emphasis for Elvish words that are three or more syllables varies. If the last two syllables are connected by one or no consonants, the 3rd to last syllable gets the emphasis. If it is two or more consonants, then the 2nd to last gets the emphasis.
However, one must keep in mind that in Sindarin and Quenya, the combos "th", "dh" and "nd" are expressed with one letter. So although is-IL-dur is how you would pronounce that name, EL-en-dil and VAL-an-dil follow the one consonant rule since "nd" is one letter in Quenya. The combo "mb" is one letter in Quenya, but not in Sindarin. So cel-eb-RIM-bor is probably the correct pronunciation of that name since it is Sindarin.
When I read the Hobbit and the Lotr Trilogy as a kid I pronounced all the place names typically Swedish. Later when I see all these videos of how they're supposed to be pronounced it is very similar to the way I have always pronounced them in my head. Not exaclty but much closer than how English and American people usually pronounce it in their languages.
As an Estonian, we pronounce all those letters just the same way as in sindarin so it comes really easy. i also speak a bit finnish and russian so learning a new language comes quite naturally to me. But i really love your videos. Im just a tad under 2years late with my comment. Keep it going anyways. best of luck!
The Sindarin "y" is sound is what linguists call a close front rounded vowel, that is, it's pronounced in the same way as a Sindarin "i", but with the lips rounded. The best way I've heard this described is that your lips are saying "u" and your tongue is saying "i" at the same time. The German "ü" is pronounced in the same way, but the Romanization is different. Whereas Tolkien opted for the more Finnish spelling, using the "y" (which, incidentally, is also the IPA character representing that sound), Germans use "ü" because the sound has a somewhat complicated history there. It was originally a digraph, "ue", because it marked a phonological process in German (and many other German languages) called umlaut (hence the different name for the diaresis), wherein a vowel underwent a mutation depending on its environment. The German umlaut fronted back vowels, meaning that vowels like "u" and "o", when paired with a front vowel like "i" or "e", had their position in the mouth moved to the front, but the rounding was kept. So the tongue moved to the "i/e" position, but the lips stayed rounded, hence the modern sound. The diaresis on top of the "u" is just an old scribe notation that ended up being used for efficiency's sake. Compare this to Finnish, which uses "y". Ancient Classical Greek had this same sound, represented by their upsilon, which came into the Latin alphabet as "y", hence why Finnish and other languages with this sound use "y" instead of "ü".
TL;DR: German "ü" and Sindarin "y" are the same sound, just spelled differently. Tolkien probably used "y" over "ü" because English speakers will naturally pronounce it as "i" and therefore still be half-correct, and because English typewriters didn't have a "ü" on it.
Tolkien used the Finnish pronunciation of Y (Similar to French 'u') because as a linguist he was fascinated by Finnish language and used it as inspiration for his Elvish. Probably where rolling the R comes as well! (I'm Finnish myself)
That "oo" merges with "ee" by keeping your tongue up in front in the "ee" position while you round your lips as if about to say "oo"
The Sindarin vowel sound for is like the German *ü* (IPA /ʏ/~/y/: when saying ihh/eeee while the lips position for uuuu/oooo) as in the song title *Für Elise*.
Please make more videos! This is so useful, thank you!
I hope you make more of these videos. They're very good, from what I can see, seeing as I am just learning it, I'm no expert. But I must prefer to learn languages from seeing people speak them, with the texting, and not many videos I have seen have both those.
Feel free to tell me if you make more. ^^
I know this video is quite old by now but: /y/ is pronounced as /i/ but with rounded lips. So the tongue is held high and forward (like in /i/) but the lips are rounded (as in /u/, /o/, etc.). Also the dh /ð/ is pronounced as the th /θ/, but voiced instead of voiceless, so your vocal chords will vibrate while saying it like in the English words there, then, thou, heathen, among others. Hope this helps!
In German, the letters Ü and Y sound the same in most of the words. The letter Y is also the phonetical symbol for the letter Ü (or the French U). Hence the confusion. The reason Elvish Ü can be pronounced /i/ is because /y/ (phonetical transcription of Ü) shares common phonetical features with /i/ (for instance, some French teachers tell their students to pronounce an EE-sound while shaping their mouth as though pronouncing an O, in order to get the pronunciation of U right).
I love your videos! Thank you so much for this! :) Please keep making more!
On the subject of Y=ü, ü is a combination of the vowels i+u. In the International Phonetic Alphabetic, the symbol [i] stands for the long "ee" sound in English, so you would make that sound with your tongue while making an [u] with your lips. The result is a mix vowel between [i] and [u] which is probably why they said that making the [i] sound is an acceptable replacement.
I think you’ve already heard it but the Y becomes an ü because the Greek letter gamma is also the Y and was used to create the ü sound in old Greek. That is how the Y becomes an ü. And in Dutch you can pronounce the Y two ways: like a y in yo-yo and an ‘I’ as in ‘irritating’ , so that’s maybe why Elves say the Y like an u and an I? (Also, in Dutch we pronounce the u like an ü and an ü like an u-u (when the vowels “bump”). But that’s a whole other story. ) I don’t think this makes it any easier but only more confusing but whatever I liked to share.
The DH explanation was very wrong. Th is pronounced like the th in "think", while dh is pronounced like the th in "this".
Officialhelpkenet so you speak sindarin?
A Hilgeman
No, but I know the international phonetic alphabet and the pronunciation that Sindarin's phonology page on Wikipedia describes is [ð], which is pronounced like th in "this". The pronunciation that the man in the video describes would look like [dð] in the IPA, and I have no idea how he came to the conclusion that it'd sound like that.
You are correct. In the back of the silmarillion there is a page on pronunciations and it states exactly what you said DH is pronounced like the TH in then.
Maybe it would be helpful to focus, not on ideas like 'hard' or 'soft', but on what your larynx is doing as you say these sounds. If it is vibrating, the sound is ∂ as in 'these' . . . voiced. (Or 'sonant', if your textbook is a bit older.) If the larynx in NOT vibrating, the sound is unvoiced (or 'surd'), as in 'thorn'. [Which is also, I think, the name of the Rune for this sound.]
Thank you. Yes, that was weird the minute he said it. Some study into phonemics would certainly help! The pair this/thin (DH/TH) is the most obvious one, and I've generally relied on it.
DH/TH voiced/voiceless pairs aren't common in English, but they do have some verb/noun combos that differ like this, and for some bizarre reason indicate the voiced (DH, verb) version by adding an E:
breathe/breath, sheathe/sheath, bathe/bath, loathe/loath
The problem is that the vowel also changes. sheathe/sheath and loathe/loath don't change, but breedh/breth, baydh/bath.
the thing with Y in german is that you can use it in 3 different ways. You can use it like the german umlaut Ü in some words, then like the german I (wich is pronounced exactly like the elvish I. actually ALL the vowels in elvish except the diphtongs are pronounced the same in german) AND you can use it like the german J (which is used differently in german than in english. It's actually used like similarly to the Y at the start of words like "Yes")
very nice video, just like last time. I don't remember you mentioning you've read and/or own a copy of the Silmarillion? there are some notes on pronunciation in there that i personally found very useful.
Looking forward to the next one, assuming there will be more (will there? :D)
You should make a part three giving more Sindarin phrases it would be helpful because I am making a story that involves elves and it would be awesome to you know, be able to type or write in Sindarin for the story.
I have only scanned the comments But Sindarin is supposed to be a mix of Welsh and Finnish according to Tolkien documentary I just watched. This is from the Tolkeingateway page Tolkien based the sound and some of the grammar of his Noldorin/Sindarin on Welsh,
and Sindarin displays of the consonant mutations that characterise the
Celtic (especially Brythonic) languages. The language was also probably
influenced to an extent by the Germanic languages, as Tolkien was a
scholar of both Old English and Old Norse.
Hey Andrew. Interestingly, I found when doing my research that whenever we see DH in Elvish, it is a soft TH sound like in Leather, rather than a stronger TH sound like in though.Cheers mate, keep up with these vids. I even credited you in my essay haha
I guess that's also where the switchimg for the y comes from. in welsh y can be an ee sound (for example as y forforwyn) or a urgh sound (like the word yn)
there really are a lot of similarities between the pronunciations of welsh and sindarin
it did help a bit, thx. I all-ready know a few sentences. I'm not sure how to spell it. i know menmgongurring which means an elvish blade, and nor na ni ner nuir which means close the gaits. and nin dice which means your late.
In ancient greek upsilon (written as a u or a capital Y) was pronounced as a german dotted u, the y in a lot of our words in english in fact derives from the greek u (or upsilon) like syringe or Egypt, or mostly wherever the y is in the middle of the word. Furthermore when teaching ancient greek in classical schools often you are encouraged to use an ee sound like in tree when the proper german u sound is too difficult
3:45 - Y comes from Greek and the German ü is pronounced like it. In fact, in Spanish, the letter is called "Greek i." Pronounce Sindarin Y like EE with your lips rounded.
From what I remember, and I could be wrong, but I believe the multiple Y pronunciations were due to some of the accents that developed within middle earth. I'm pretty sure the u with umlauts was the correct pronunciation that was spoken by the elves, but the long e pronunciation was from the men (Gondorians if I remember correctly) because they were unable to make that sound and therefore just swapped the u umlaut with the long e. I speak German and have no reason to believe that the switch would have anything to do with the German language, but as many of the commentors have mentioned, there may be a connection with Finnish.
Thank you so much for making these videos! They help a lot! Are you thinking of making more?
+animalzamzam Thanks! Glad I could help! Always thinking about, but usually too busy to act on it. :( Working on it though!
Just one thought on the y=ü, in Dutch the long i is ij, which is pronounced as 'eye' and is often used interchangeably with y. Written it looks quite like the ü but with a tail
I speak german and i can tell you that in german,"Y" is pronounced like an "Ü", "i" (ee) or like a mix out of "Ü" and "i" (ee).
I think the Y being pronounced with the "ew" kind of thing echoes the ancient Greek version of the letter epsilon (ypsilon) which scholars believe was pronounced sort of like the "ew".
Salaam and Mae govannen! Pretty sure the DH is actually just the English TH sound in “the” as opposed to the TH in “think”. In old English these would have been represented by two different letters. It’s incidentally also two different letters in Arabic for these two different sounds. They are both produced the same way but one is voiced and the other unvoiced. :-)
I can explain the "ü"/"i" thing. I learned this in voice lessons. You pronounce the German "ü" by saying the Sindarin "i"/ ee sound with your lips pursed as though you were going to make a "u". So shape your lips as though you were going to say "you" and then say "e" instead. (I believe this is also why, when reciting the French alphabet, the name of the letter E is pronounced in a way that sounds more like "uhh" to English speakers.)
In fonetic the sound ü is written like the letter y. That's why the letter y is pronounced that way
Well, Y sounds like an influence from northern germanic languages such as Icelandic and Old Norse, also Old English (which Tolkien had studied) since the letter y in all those languages is pronounced like this. My town in Northern England's original name was Heahbyrgen, it has that sound :)
Hooray! Thanks man! This is great, hope you can make more in the future
mae govanent, mellon nin! I'm subscribing because I'm trying to learn Sindarin too! hope to see more of videos about Sindarin! Savo 'lass a lalaith!
Regarding the Y, it's most likely because in the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet), the symbol that represents the 'deep oo' (don't know how to do umlauts!) is a lower case y. And I presume that people substitute 'ee' for it because those two vowel sounds actually make up a pair; the former being pronounced with rounded lips and the latter being unrounded. It makes sense from technical stand point, and I imagine Tolkien to be very technical with his conlangs!
I know exactly why. We have this in Welsh, my native language. 'Y' is pronounced as our 'u' if it's towards the end of the word. You are right that this sounds like the German u, but it's not exactly the same as what we have in Welsh. It mostly pronounced in the Northern Welsh dialect. If people cannot pronounce the 'u' sound, then they can make a pretty close sound by saying the 'i' in 'sit'.
Thank you for your guide it Really helps keep up the Good work, love from Sweden
The substitution of "i" for "y = ü" is easy if you think of German ü (which also occurs in French *tu*) thus: round your lips for "oo" [food, boot], then _without moving lips_, say "ee". The substitution then consists of -- not rounding your lips!
From the Middle earth map, youn can see where Tolkien borrowed and twisted words
Barad dur (Barod Twr) Ready tower {the tower that is willing and ready} | Caras Galadhon (Carais Galad hon) This hard love {I loved her so much} | Carn Dûm (Garn) Hilt | Celduin ('Cel dwyn') hidden steal [A hidden loot {a hidden treasure}] | Dol Amroth (Dolen 'Dol' Am Rhodd) Link that was given {Ring that was given} | Dol Guldur (Dolen 'Dol' Gul twr) Link of the thin tower {Ring of the narrow tower} | Druwaith Laur (Dri waith lawr) Three times down | Edhellond (Adael Lond) leave full | Eglarest (Eglurest) Enlighten | Eldalondë (Dalon De) Pay South | Ephel Brandir (Bran Dir) Crow land | Esgaroth (Garoth) He loved | Emyn muil (Emyn Mil) 'A thousand Hymns' or 'A hymn of a thousand' | Enedwaith (Enid Waith) Birthing work | Ered Mithrin (Meithrin) Nourish | Gondolin (Dolen Gron) round link {Round ring} | Gulf of Lhun (Llyn) [[A peninsula on the north West coast of Wales]] | Harlond (Har lond) full tilth [[filled fertile soil]] | Havens of Sirion (Sirion) Shires | Icebay of Forochel (For ochel) Sea guard | Linhir (lin hir) Long kneel | Minas Morgul (Mynnais Mor Gul) 'Persistence of the narrow sea' or ''Such narrow persistence' | Minas Tirith (Mynnais Tiraeth) Persistence of continuation | Minhiriath (Min Hiraeth) Longing Point | Moria (Middle-earth) (Moria) Voyage | Mordor (Mor dor) Such a Breach, Such Breach | Osgiliath (Osgiliad) oscillation | Orodruin (Oro drwyn) Festering nose {Festering tip} | Pinnath Gelin (Pennaeth Gelyn) Head of the enemy | Rhun (Rhun) [c. 547 - c. 586 King Rhun Hir ap Maelgwn (Long Rhun son of Maelgwn) of Gwynedd, Wales] | Rivendell (rhwyfen dal) Rowing keep | Rómenna (Rho Menna) Give Menna [[the name has different origins but is also seen in Welsh, Menna is a feminine name]] | Rhovanion (Rhof Anian) I give to nature | Tirion (Tirion) Pleasant/Gentle
Nice video!
Y was the capital letter for u in Old Greek. In those times, it was pronounced similar to the actual ü in German ;)
I'm german and in our language the y is often pronounced like an ü. I can't explain why it could be that way but that's just how I learned it.
For example: Die Analyse
=> the analysis
I love your voice and your subject knowledge. I can feel the passion you have for these topics despite the "nerdiness" as you put it. :P
Seriously though, great videos man. If you are doing this for fun, then know you just made someone's day. Keep it up!
These videos are awesome. I'm glad that you made them! It's very fun and interesting to learn this!
This is awesome!!! Ive always wanted to learn elvish.
More video Anuron! You are a good teacher!
Currently binge watching lord of the rings and was thinking wow wish I could speak elvish and proceeded to watch all these videos 🙈 nerds rule
I'm so glad that pronunciation is similar to Polish!
the y sound in elvish becomes a ee sound because y is just ee rounded same position as ee in your mouth but your lips are like a o thats why it becomes a ee cause its similar in mouth position even though it dont sound like it hope this helps
Thanks for making these videos! They are really helpful. Please keep making them!
I can't explain how excited I was for this second part. You made my day ^^
thank you andrew..keep making these.
HEY Andrew, I really enjoy your "speaking Sindarin" video's if you can make more, with more phrases n such that would be super cool. thanks bud!
If Tolkien based the Y (ooooh) from the Koine Greek upsilon, then that makes sense as upsilon is either Y or u in Koine Greek. For in Koine Greek the upper case for a Y "upsilon" is the same for the lower case u "upsilon", thus whether one uses an upper case Y "upsilon" or a lower case "upsilon", as with any language, the pronunciation stays the same in Koine Greek, oooooh . I hope this helps. I have a tough time spelling Tolkiens u or ooooh linguistically within the English language. The only way to spell it is something akin to a you-ooh exceptionally hard or just simply ooooh. And if he used this sound for the letter Y, from a Greek perspective this would make total sense. In other words the Y and the u are the same sound in Koine Greek since one is upper case ooh and the other, lower case ooooh. I know that this is really rudimentary, but I hope that it helps. Oh and thank you with the f pronunciation of names in the end in Sindarin. I have heard Finarfin's name pronounced Finarvin, and now I know why, Thanks.
Dh is just spoken as th but with voice, like in "the" or "this" (in IPA you'd use [ð])
And here the explanation for pronouncing y: You speak it like German ü, that's right, it's transcripted as y because of ancient greek, where you speek y like the German ü (in German you do that too, also in IPA it's [y]). If you can't pronounce y the next best letters would be u or i or ui/ue together, why?
1. u: u is the nearest sound to y
2. i: i is the nearest sound to y too
3. ui/ue: the combination of these sounds as diphtong createdin many languages the sound y (e.g. old norse: þiutiskaz -> þýzkr).
y is pronounced as ü because y in German is pronounced üpsilon. the two dots over the u are umlauts ä =ah mit Umlauten which means a with umlauts. it causes it to have that oo sound like in loot
Hi, Andrew.
I'm German so I can tell you the part with the y. In Germany we say for "y" "ypsilon" and the y in ypsilon sounds like "ü".
I don't know, if it's correct, but it sounds logical sooo...
German native here. It all sounds to me like Tolkien used a sound and annotation system quite close to the German one alltogether, because all those sounds would be transcribed in pretty much those ways in German, which as a result for English speakers look nonintuitive but for German speakers they don't even provoke questioning.
The reason why Y=Ü is because (coming from Greek) /y/ is mostly pronounced "ü", like in "Ypsilon, hyper, ...". Explaining why it is substitutable with "i" ("ee") if you can't say "ü" is also logical, because phonetically "i" and "ü" are the closest sounds (compare IPA charts), they actually have the same way to to be formed in the mouth with the sole difference that with the "ü" your lips are rounded (like o and u). The visual resemblence to /u/ has rather phonological reasons, because in many inflection paradigms /u/ and /ü/ alternate and only get dots as a result rather than changing the whole letter.
And btw Diphthong is pronounced "difthong", also coming from Greek.
I always read the DH was more of a soft TH like "then or the" and the TH more harder like "think"
greek speakers have that difference in dh and th too
also i believe elvish being heavily inspired by welsh and they have the dd as the DH sound
P.S. about the Y
just looked at my appendix and they it's more like a HJ sound like in "huge or hew" so really close to ü?
looking at online lists they do say ü but i don'T know why
also sorry if you already know all this, just noticed the date this video was made...
Mae g'ovannen!
We need to be friends. End of story xD haha!
Mandie you are very beautiful girl im alex from Greece and i sent you my respect from krete
So the Y being a German u'/umlaut thing actually comes from Welsh. Tolkien was a big fan of Welsh and I've done a little studying. All U's in welsh are pronounced by forming an 'oo' sound with your lips, but saying an 'ee' sound in your mouth. Y is the IPA symbol for this sound. In welsh they call this sound "i bedhol" which means "I horseshoe" and they call a regular I, "i dot". The welsh consider them to be similar(like U and W in english). So when he says that Y and I and interchangeable it's cause they're actually kinda similar.
i think speaking german/swissgerman will help me a lot with the pronunciaton. 😊
The letter Y comes from Greek and was pronounced like German ü. "Cycle" was pronounced "küklon", for example.
Ughh Thankyou. My pronunciation is terrible. Keep making these videos!
I'm German and the Y is like in the word "Synonym", which is pronounced like 'Sünonüüm"
For DH, it is the same sound as the English ‘the’, or ‘they’, just it has its own letters. For the ‘y’, it was pronounced as an ‘ee’ sound by the Gondorians as they too had trouble pronouncing the ‘y’ sound - basically ‘y’ is pronounced like the German ü by the elves, and ‘ee’/Sindarin ‘i’ by mortals! I am not an expert so I may still be wrong!
I can not roll my R's at all so I hope that's okay lol but I'm already having fun learning Sindarin :) and Le Hannon for this video and Galu!
cool stuff dude! I've always found this stuff interesting xD
Regarding the "Y", pronounced "ü". Tolkien did not resort only to celtic or germanic roots, but also to mediterranean ones, specially in the way the spoken words are represented by signs (the written words). I have identified in your videos (and others) that Tolkien chose a variety of sounds (present in, but not exclusive of, ancient greek) and wrote them in the way romans signified them using the latin "abecedario" (nerdy note: the latin "ABC..." sequence is not an "alphabet", the word "alphabet" relates to the greek "alpha-beta-gamma..."sequence, but you have no equivalent word in english as we do in latin-derived languages). So, the letter pronounced"fi" in greek, would preserve in latin a distinctive pair of signs: "PH" (second nerdy note: the sign "F" is not latin, nor greek, but came from the East and was later incorporated to the "abecedario"). The letter written "X" (which has no equivalent sound in english, but does in sindarin, as you have explained), would be written in the latin "abecedario" as "CH". The greek letter named "kappa" was signified in its capital modality as "K", and was sometimes written in the latin "abecedario" as "k", but sometimes as "c", preserving the sound "k", just as in sindarin (at least in many words, though there is an academic discussion regarding others). And so forth. The "Y" (which, by the way, in spanish is known as "greek i"), derives directly, and even preserved the written sign, from the greek capital "Ypsilon" (another coincidence: its minor sign is very similar to our "u"). The greek sound for the "upsilon" does not exist in english, nor in spanish, but it has a relatively close equivalent in french: the way the word "eau" (water) is pronounced. In german, the "ü" has kept a similar sound, as in the word "über". Match the french "eau" and the german sound for "ü" in "über" (as in Deustchland über alles), and you'll be very close to the ancient greek "Y", which Tolkien seems to have incorporated to sindarin. I believe that's the small piece you're missing. Great video!
Your videos are epic, like totally brutal, keep up with your good work :)
This was soooo helpful!!! Thank you!
make more of these I need them
So I took Spanish in school and the summer after my first year of taking it I watched this video and I recognized that the vowels A, E, I are pronounced ah, eh, ee the same way they are in Spanish.
Super helpful video thank you so much! I love the way you explain the vowel sounds in particular. Awesome awesome awesome.
I figured out your "Y" quandry. Looking at most words containing that letter, the pronounciation closest to "uh" in English makes most sense. For example, "Ylfdan" would be pronounced "Uhlfdahn", and "Eryn" would be "Erehn" as in "pull" or "lull" or "sole", not "oo" as in "Rhun" or "tune", and "not "uhh" as in "run" or "puppy". I refer you to two sites for reference: www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_grammar.htm
www.ambar-eldaron.com/english/downloads/sindarin-english.pdf
Nice to see that you keep going with the elvish tutorial videos. Do you produce more in the future?
Good work! Thanks for your hard work!
hi. I found your videos lately because i want to learn evish! and i like it. could i hope for more?
+Samantha Roke Thanks! Hope never hurts. I'll try to make some more videos soon.
Th is the voiceless dental fricative /θ/ as in think. The dh is the voiced dental fricative /ð/ as in thing or then. Well, in “think” your voice is not vibrating, I guess, and in “then” it is. That's where the “voiced” and “voiceless” parts come from. ^-^
my native language is Yakut (Sakha) (Haha I'm sure you have never heard about my language) and we pronounce the letter Y like Ü too :))
YAY IVE BEEN WAITING FOR PART 2 THANKS
You've prolly heard this a thousand times but - dh in Sindarin is the "th" is "this". Its the voiced equivalent of the "th" in "think".
Learning the pronunciation isn't going to be an issue. Here in the Netherlands we already have rolling r's and the 'ch' which is really hard for you English people XD same thing goes for the a, i, e and o. And the u we know from German, so yeah :D Finally my Latin and ancient greek will be of use to me!