Big Thanks to Jesse Enkamp and Shane Fazen for the knowledge here! Jesse: ua-cam.com/channels/RIeMHsEdzA9RroG19kXdYg.html Shane: ua-cam.com/users/FightTipsVideos
in judo and in kungfu you do kata with more persons (1vs 1) like a movie fight in kungfu one group lean a kata and another group leanred another kata (tao) and they fit perfectly
Kata is the physical mapping for meditative exploration of waza... Kata can be used as shadow boxing - by intent of different applications during the physical form Shadow boxing is continuation of training _ alone... Using the learned technique in solitary control, the training (with another) adds variety, and sparring adds range training (interior & exterior evasion/exploitation) that leads back to shadow boxing for the mental intention during meditative exploration Gaining mindfulness while active is situational comprehension and problem solving_ meditation can be passive for rest, active for physical memory
Okay I lied, I just thumbs-upped your video because I like you I want to thank you for your contributions! I shadowbox, but I've never had a TMA background so I never learned any katas (parents wouldn't let me!) 😢
I shadow sparring... basically outside of class when we’re not wearing protective equipment, me and my buddy will spar with each other with NO CONTACT. This way we practice techniques still but it feels more alive and interactive than just shadow boxing
@jesse I have a question/comment. You say that Kata has lost it's meaning due to the sands of time, but a lot of legitimate schools are not that far removed from the founders (Funakoshi Sensei passed in 1957, Miyagi Sensei 1953, Mabuni Sensei 1952, Otsuka Sensei 1982). I think it's more a function of politics (whether it's regarding sport rules, how it became mainstream, etc) and mysticism that went unchallenged that made it that way. Thoughts? (big fan of your channel btw)
Karate basics=alphabet Karate moving basic = words Kata= basic sentence (the dog is brown) 1 step sparring = pre set conversion I.e. “hi my name is Jordan” “nice to meet you “ Shadow boxing=poetry Sparring=conversation Fighting = serious debate Self defense = argument
So basically, kata is practicing form with pre-determined scenarios and moves and shadowboxing is free flowing application of form with more realistic, imperfect, and spontaneous situations
@@mlkvblendzior I could be wrong but this is what I understood katas are solo drills, to help you get muscle memory of how to do certain action correctly and shadow boxing is you applying those drills in free flowing application.
@@mlkvblendzior For me Kata works well for situations where you don't want to overthink things. If you are ambushed there isnt time to come up with a plan. Its good to respond with a few moves that cover as much ground as possible until you can get your head in the game. A lot of Katas cover similar territory using gross motor movements for attack and defense over a wide area. That said I only have a couple short katas I focus on currently.
@@paulcastro8790 Not really. In kata I often seen moves that are between debatle at best and totally useless. For example - why in kata punchces are mostly thrown from armpit, while in combat you throw them mostly from the normal guard. Not to mention about other goofy strikes like spear hand. Covering as much ground with as little effort as possible can excerciesd with much simpler and more efficient drills. So the whole defence of katas by karate nerds (which I've used to be) looks like "We've spent a lot of time on bullshit and now we are looking any means to justify it".
Sensei Seth being the Tony Stark of the UA-cam Martial Art Universe (YMAU, it's a thing now!). You defo are the glue that brings all these youtubers together! :D
I can't see the word kata without hearing it in Jesse's voice. I knew we'd be seeing him just by the title haha great video. This made me think maybe all my years of air drumming will pay off one day when I get a set. I've been doing drum kata my whole life!
There is also some modern new Katas, which are "non-traditional" and actually really just "sets" to train some body mechanics by repeating patterns. Example: "The Kicking Kata" of Kyokushin Karate, "Sokugi Taikyoku Sono", in which "Kyokushin Crescent & Axe-Kicks" are trained.
Soooo kata is kinda like learning the words Shadow boxing is rehearsing the conversation Sparring/fighting is having the conversation also basketball analogy was dope
For me forms are really helpful for helping people learn techniques. It forces them to really focus down on a few techniques in addition to giving them a general idea of how the technique would be used. It's also useful to practice because it forces you to use and practice techniques that you might not otherwise incorporate into other exercises, since most people tend to stick to what they're already comfortable with when they're doing things like shadowboxing or bag work. It's not a replacement for those things, but can get you better results when done in tandem with those other exercises.
I'm the kind of person who enjoys kata because it shows the technique and how it goes in a sequence, then we go into bunkai to see the application of each technique in each kata. Then shadowbox in order play around with the bunkai and techniques from the kata. That's how we do it in my dojo, in Goju ryu
@@SenseiSeth and I understand why you teach kata, sensei Seth. I actually enjoy your videos. Still hoping you go to an Okinawan dojo or to Okinawa so you can compare your US style of karate with the country of origin later on this year
If you’ve ever been a police officer or served in the military, every time you’ve done drilling with your service weapon you’ve done kata. Think about ;)
Yooooo you all put this in a way that I clearly understand both of these better than before. Going to add these both back into my routine more efficiently
To make it simple, Kata is drilling. You work body mechanics for a specific set of movement and muscle group. Shadowboxing is fighting without an opponent, where you try to invoke reflex, reaction, counters, pressure, mind game, etc. Both are essential to any martial art and/or combat sport.
As a Wing Chun practitioner myself, this resonates with me quite a bit. Most schools will have you spending an irrational amount of forms/katas and then instruct you to mechanically repeat those movements with a partner, and they would call it a "fight". We should totally start learning from Karate and other TMAs with a solid tradition of practical applications.
I am really surprised that I didn’t hear kata spoken about in a better light. It’s not just strikes and techniques It’s a lexicon of the systems methodology of fighting including the techniques mindset powerdelivery rules of movement At the highest levels kata becomes a spiritual exercise.
Kata is like learning how to write individual letters. The letters are only useful if you understand the language and make those letters into a word. I can have beautiful handwriting but be unable to write a cohesive sentence.
I look at katas as specific workouts. As an adult who was never athletic during childhood and adolescence, I understand their importance because movements that might feel natural to an athletic person need to be built afresh in the muscle memory of someone like me. To give you an example of my lack of athleticism, it took me years to figure out how to actually throw a punch without being totally stiff, and my punching still isn't any good, but I can tell that it is closer to the "correct" technique (i.e., one that will actually work).
For year i thought kata was pointless because i'm not gonna do that if i'm in a fight so i took Muay Thai. now i understand tyvm for the explanation especially the basketball comparison
Your analogy of using basketball and breaking it down to its component pieces is way better than mine. I used to use baseball. You have batting practice, you practice bunting, the coach wants you to do nothing but hit to the opposite field. You're at second base, and someone does nothing but hit ground balls to you - and they ask you to fire it home. Then there's inter-squad teams. And then - the big game. But I think I like your basketball analogy better, because there's more individual skills in basketball that's needed than baseball. Many thanks. Good video.
I've always looked at Kata as an encyclopedia of techniques that works in compliment with written catalogue techniques . Its a foundation for fluid free style sparing.
My sensei says individual techniques are like letters and kata is like alphabet. Some combinations in sequences we call kihon are like words. I really like the analogy
A lot of the oldest kata in existence look like short repetitive drills. Look at Hsing I kung fu for example. The longest kata I’ve ever seen is from Lohan kung fu. It’s 256 movements long and designed to teach body mechanics and rhythm more so than fighting techniques (although it has those, two man drills too). When you work your kata, you can repeat certain movements over and over and then return to the sequence. You can drill individual moves from the kata on their own. You can start doing a kata and then flow into shadow boxing. You can do the footwork from the kata with different hands or no hands at all. You can train kata without thinking about fighting applications and just work on body mechanics. Do kata fast, slow, backwards... Try to find the “themes” in the beginning of kata and use those ideas to decipher the rest of the form. And if you haven’t binged watched Iain Abernethy’s videos about kata yet, go do that right now.
Well said my man. I think there is a little more to kata than what you've said, but generally I agree. One aspect of kata that I like is taking basics and making them flow.
I always thought that kata was primarily a way to pass an art down before we had cameras or UA-cam (for younger readers, as hard as this is to believe, UA-cam wasn’t very good in the 19th century). The fighting methods, techniques and applications were laid out in the katas. Memorizing and then teaching others the forms were a way of keeping the art alive. I don’t think they are useless now but I think there is less of a need for them as there are much more efficient training methods and better, more comprehensive ways of passing the arts along.
I was kinda 50/50 on kata for a while. Now, especially for solo training, it can definitely be useful. I tried to relearn my old taekwando katas, and it was definitely a challenge, I remember certain parts but not all of them. And throughout doing it, I could feel my breath getting slightly heavier and my legs felt it more. Plus the mental training of remembering and overall learning. You're training your brain to remember things which can be very important in a fight.
I liked this video and I agree, also what Jesse said made me think that I would absolutely suck at Japanese kata because I literally never learnt a single kata in the proper order so I just made up my own with the moves I learnt in class because that made more sense in my child head. (I still think that was a good decision)
Loved this video. Kata is a good teaching tool for those who understand how to use it. Kata is also good for those looking to practice Karate-Do or the artistic side of Karate. Kata can have different value to different people. The key is honesty. If you are practicing kata without sparring, don’t expect to be good at fighting. If you are practicing sparring without kata, don’t expect your combat movements to look like one of the Machida brothers. That being said, neither is the wrong path. But be realistic about what you are practicing and why you are practicing it.
I feel good already knowing sensei is back, G'day Seth, welcome back. Love from an Aussie in down under 🤙🔥🇭🇲 interesting video, learning bout Kata & different to shadow boxing.
Always enjoy your videos. I agree that kata is excellent homework for when you just get started in martial arts. Now that I am older, it is also excellent for trying to maintain balance, flexibility, and coordination. As always, thank you 🙏
I feel like this is the perfect reasoning behind practical application of the movements in kata, and the combination of the two. The moments themselves have a flow from one another, and into one another. That doest mean that each move has to absolutely come after one another. But more than once I've noticed both in a random fight and full contact sparing, I've noticed specific sections maybe even really just two movements that come free from a kata.
Made me think, I'm glad I did this as a kid. As a young boy in safe space karate it allowed me practice my kicks and punches over and over. If you have a kata with 10 side kicks and you do it 10 times in one class, you've just done 100 side kicks plus whatever else. It is exactly like writing lines. It's pure repetition till you understand the moves, then you can use them on your own.
Agreed! Awesome video. Agree 10000%. Kata /form is just a drill and a way to transfer information. It was never meant to be a way to measure fighting ability or rank
I see them as more like two sides of the same coin instead of as two exactly identical things that exist simultaneously without variation. Good video thanks for posting!
I think of kata as much like what soldiers do on the parade ground. Watching soldiers 'square bashing' its crystal clear that what they're doing is a billion miles away from laying face down in mud, shooting and being shot at during a battle. But the things they do on the parade ground, not dropping their rifles and always knowing exactly where they're supposed to be and exactly where they're mates are, is kind of important.
I’ve been out of karate practice for years now, and I’ve been thinking about Kata a lot. IMO, a kata essentially summarises a bunch of techniques in a sort of flow, which you can break down into different techniques and applications, and go from there.
Great breakdown Sensei Seth! I like to practice Tai Chi, not for the moves but for the purposeful focus of my base/posture/structure/balance. The same approach can be used when learning a new technique from whatever style you want to pick. Going "Tai Chi slow" is great to make sure you're moving the way you should be moving, a lot can be overlooked when going too fast. I like to go Tai Chi slow when learning new takedowns or throws too, I've learned how to really capitalize on the method and I think many other people could learn faster/proper when doing it. If you can't do it slow, why should you be able to do it fast? Thanks for the content!
Oss Sensei Seth!!! I’ve always thought of kata as a really good foundational exercise for stance-work, balance and leg strengthening. Plus if you crank through like 6 or 7 katas at full speed and power without stopping it’s a damn good workout hahaha
They are basically meditation in motion. It's like practicing the four limbs of yoga in martial arts form. (abstinences), niyama (observances), asana (posture), pranayama (breathing), pratyahara (withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (absorption).
One of my Taiji teacher told me "you must go from no form through form to no form" . Meaning the functional practice designs the form then practice of the form makes you better at functional movements. Problem in most taiji school is that they only do forms...
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich yes it is. it's root is in fighting, and it has a competitive practice like and sumo or greco-roman wrestling called pushing hands. It just evolved in a more health oriented practice. And most modern schools only do forms. Hence you believing it's not a martial art.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich There's a bare few schools out there that practice it in the martial form, but when it is, it works out to being primarily a stand-up grappling system. However, it's mostly the chi gung (qi gong... various spellings) exercises from it that have widely spread, and some of what is often called "taiji" are actually chi gung exercises lifted from other styles of kung fu.
Kata is like doing the alphabet your doing a couple of moves and stances in a order, while shadowboxing is like an freestyle doing different punches acting like there is an opponent
Don’t fully agree Sensei, for when shadow boxing, we do find ourselves subconsciously running through set drills, jab-jab-cross-hook etc, which ok, isn’t anywhere near as strict as kata, but still the same principle in part...
As a practitioner I like shadowboxing but as an instructor I like Kata. When a student does their Kata I can tell where, when and how they are failing or excelling. If they are shadowboxing I don't know if they did certain moves to counter a made up opponent but if they are doing Kata I know exactly where and when they may or may not have made a mistake, even if it's just a slight error of body position or transition of body mechanic.
On fun thing my Dojo did was a) learn kata, b) learn the one-steps involved in kata, c) Randori using kata. Still formulaic but closer to an actual fight and I believe it did help in sparring.
Kata of a syllabus of moves - applications and body methods. You practice them all at once in sequence so you don't forget anything, but drill them individually to perfect them. Shadowboxing is just as you described - it is not drilling moves. The reason why kata gets compared to shadow boxing is to encourage the visualization and not just repeat a pattern without intent.
I don’t know what kata is 😂, but forms are really nice to practice transition, and technique so we can commit it to muscle memory. Don’t want to have to think about it when we need it. I love shadow boxing. It’s like taking print and then learning cursive. Thanks for being great. Now for a question. Have you ever used a side kick as a throw/take down? I don’t know if I’m just lucky but I’ve had some great success with it.
I love the points you brought as well as you guests. I liked the point Jesse made about Katas not being meant only for solo training. This can be seen across several Japanese martial arts. There are Kata in some Japanese Jujitsu styles, Judo, Aikido and in Japanese weapons such as the Jō for example. These katas involve two participants which help to bridge the gap between techniques and application. Granted that these katas are generally shorter than karate katas where you often have a single kata or groups of katas that represent an entire style or concept of combat. Take for example the motions of changing levels of Kushanku (Kankudai), close quarters engagement as implied in Nainhanchi (Tekki) or defending against an armed assailant as in Jutte.
Kata are basically for beginners so they can learn the techniques available. Never go into a fight with expectations. If anything, Work on reading your opponents through sparring. Work on defense, work of offense, kick 1000 times. Punch 1000 times, train right handed, train left handed. Absorb everything into your instincts
For me, the kata of karate-do are: * exercises that include representations of techniques passed down from the kata creators * a performance art form (like high-diving or gymnastics or dance which are judged by their aesthetics) * moving meditation, like a form of yoga Deciding to focus on one or another aspect of kata is a personal choice, and I appreciate all the different points of view.
i do practice both forms and shadow simply because the form is a great way to practice the moves and keep them sharp, and maeby improve them, and shadow to actually use them if i can and to practice without more people.
I practice ITF taekwon-do and we practice a lot of patterns, or tuls, which is the same as kata. The main difference I see between training patterns and shadowboxing is what are you training. In patterns we focus a lot on using your weight correctly, on rotation, on how you should execute a movement in order for it to be effective, on how the pathing of the technique should be. Shadowboxing is about practing these techniques you've developed in a more realistic and fluid way. Katas, or tuls, are terrible for simulating a fight, even though they are technically supposed to be that, the movement sequence is often stiff and unrealistic. Even though we don't execute the moves in a fight the same way we practice in the katas or tuls, having that rotation, breathing and correct use of body weight really internalized through repetitive practice allows us to do kind of a reduced version of that when fighting or shadowboxing. On shadowboxing you're not really focusing on how to throw a good jab or cross, you're more focused on the sequence, making it fluid, transitioning from blocking to attacking and back, creating angles, realistic sequences, and if you do that when your technique is bad you will solidify bad technique. So katas are mostly to develop, perfect and internalize isolated techniques, in shadowboxing you practice getting more fluid and dynamic with those techniques in a controeld enviroment where you dictates what's happening and what the "opponent" is doing, and sparring is where you actually test and apply those concepts together with an uncooperative opponent, which is crucial (plese don't ever think you can learn to fight through katas and shadowboxing only. You can't). You can also add bag work, pad work, pre determined drills with a partner, like practicing defending or dodging an specific technique and counter attacking but during a free movement style drill where you don't know how or when the opponent is going to use that technique. I believe everything has it's function and can be really important and useful. But I've seen great fighters who have never done any type of kata but I've never seen great fighters who have only done kata and similar training, so that says something too. In general, for short, everything can work and have its function if you practice enough. Except Aikido.
In short: Kata is more self-defense based Shadowboxing is more free-form At beginner level shadowboxing you might do things thats less important. At kata everything is predetermined. Practicing combos in shadowboxing is more similar to kata though. Except you can choose your own predetermined moves (wich might be better if you know what you're doing).
If you like analogies, here's one that's a little closer to home (less for you and more for kata). In Buddhism, there's a practice of "sutra copying" (抄經/chāo jīng in Chinese or 写経/shakyo in Japanese), where you hand-scribe a sutra as a devotional practice to accumulate merit. You try to copy the sutra exactly, perfectly, focusing on both the calligraphy to write the characters correctly, and meditate on the meaning of the words as you go. It's a means of memorizing and internalizing the sutra and its meaning, which is deceptively complex, and only through constant practice does it reveal its secrets to the initiate. Hohan Soken Sensei famously said that "The answers are all in the kata." Like the sutra, the concepts and applications are there hidden in plain sight; even if the teaching of the individual applications are lost, the choreography of the kata leaves them buried shallowly, so they can be unearthed and rediscovered. As karateka develop and continue to practice, their relationship to the kata is bound to change. The kihon form the foundation of movement, the kata expands that vocabulary, and the bunkai breaks the kata back down into smaller components that become more advanced kihon in their own right. Shadowboxing is jumbling up all that kihon to prepare one for a real fight, imagining your opponent and visualizing their movement so you can respond and move with fluidity. Kumite is the consensual testing of these techniques, and real-world application is the ultimate expression of the accumulation of "merit," as it is immediate and unrehearsed, and has real consequence. In Buddhism, kata is like shakyo, shadowboxing is like synthesizing your own spiritual poetry, and the real fight is living your life with compassion for all beings.
In HEMA there are drills found in many sabre manuals, There's even one called solo drill found in "The art of defense on foot" by roworth 1798 which is basically a kata. Since sabre was a military weapon taught to a large number of recruits, the use of form or drills was widely use by instructors. I get the feeling that modern martial arts because they aren't taught to a large amount of practitioners at the same time, as old close combat weapons used to be taught in military training, there's no connection of kata and drill for most of them.
Seth since you said the word shadowboxing you'll have to eat and train like Iron Mike Tyson and make a video out of it (trust me it will improve your kicks and punches)
I always look at as something past shadow boxing really. Not better, but if you cant shadow box you cant understand kats either. This goes back to some old karate texts were the kata is viewed as a dictionary or repository of the technique that makes ip the art.
The point made in video about shadowbox as like conversing ( as you do make the movements and not set ) as opposed to kata like homework is somewhat correct. However, Kata is pretty much like shadow boxing as it enforces you to get the coordination and technique correctly. When you're sparring,in in karate, you don't get to fulfill movements to their utmost, perfectly as their is that time element. When you do Kata, you get to fully execute thr technique, hopefully in there most correct form. Shadow boxing and Kata are the same, In that it teaches you coordination of doing all the techniques together. Just that Kata is predetermined, ill give it that.
I still think it's a good idea to regularly go over your kata as a regular practice are least 3xs a week. I made the mistake of not and now I only know a few and can't teach the rest. I am restarting the learning prices of basic goju ryu kata so I can start with private lessons.
In my opinion mitt work in boxing and kickboxing is somewhat similar to kata because a fighter must remember complex combinations of strikes and defence all in one time. Shadowboxing is done before the training to warm up and loose the muscles for the harder training like bag work pad work and sparring.
Hmmmm.. not really imo. SOMETIMES they can be! Like super long mitt work maybe, but they’d have to do the exact same sequence every time. Even mitt work reacts a small amount howeevvverrr, I’m convinced beginners that want to think they’re high level do exactly what you’re saying
@@SenseiSeth true. Pad work is somewhat shortened version of kata with shorter combinations, kata is complex and long with many elements of attack and defense. I think that the both excersises have same goal and that is to train the mind of a fighter to combine attack and defense and to remember long combos.
Love all your stuff always, but as a full-time Boxer I just have to add that if a Boxer is Shadowboxing and is imagining a "consensual opponent" all the time when theyre at that higher intensity level than they arent using Shadowboxing to its full potential. Yes a Boxer could stand still and Shadowbox or not throw a punch a Sparring Round but no Coach would encourage that(or should anyway), and nobody should do that haha you "could" do that with any martial art, but would you? Should you? No sir My main point I guess is that Shadowboxing and Kata are much more similar if you Shadowbox correctly. Even with your basketball example, Shadowboxing should also be done the same as the example you used for Kata, repetition is key in all Martial Arts
Depends on your philosophy of training. Kata is the basis of Karate. Performing kata takes, discipline, understanding of breathing, mental and spatial awareness, patience and also repetition. Its an aspect of Karate. At the end of the day, all the training translates to life in general.
put simply kata is just you practicing the moves and getting better so that when a situation happens you'll be proficient at doing the moves shadowboxing is you fighting an invisible shadow
I liked the rant. I don't see why people discard kata as useless; they have specific purposes and should be part of the training... Not the most important thing, but they do help, especially to know your own body as you move around in a specific way.
Big Thanks to Jesse Enkamp and Shane Fazen for the knowledge here!
Jesse: ua-cam.com/channels/RIeMHsEdzA9RroG19kXdYg.html
Shane: ua-cam.com/users/FightTipsVideos
Dope! Great colab, great points, great video!
kata is advanced meditation
in judo and in kungfu you do kata with more persons (1vs 1) like a movie fight
in kungfu one group lean a kata and another group leanred another kata (tao) and they fit perfectly
Box sings....
Kata is the physical mapping for meditative exploration of waza... Kata can be used as shadow boxing - by intent of different applications during the physical form
Shadow boxing is continuation of training _ alone... Using the learned technique in solitary control, the training (with another) adds variety, and sparring adds range training (interior & exterior evasion/exploitation) that leads back to shadow boxing for the mental intention during meditative exploration
Gaining mindfulness while active is situational comprehension and problem solving_ meditation can be passive for rest, active for physical memory
Thumbs up if you do both kata and shadowboxing!
yes I do both , actually I do poomsae ( kata of taekwondo 😁) and shadow sparring.
Okay I lied, I just thumbs-upped your video because I like you I want to thank you for your contributions! I shadowbox, but I've never had a TMA background so I never learned any katas (parents wouldn't let me!) 😢
I shadow sparring... basically outside of class when we’re not wearing protective equipment, me and my buddy will spar with each other with NO CONTACT. This way we practice techniques still but it feels more alive and interactive than just shadow boxing
You do kata? Yo Fightips when we gonna see you collab with karate nerd and seth?
Ayeee.. well, sorta 😂
Domo arigato for having me on Sensei Seth! 🙏🥋👊
Thanks for the knowledge! I actually had no idea about the Kata being a “non martial arts” thing
Your channel is the best bro I've been following you since the first trip to Okinawa.
@@eggsiclefishstick5569 Thanks for supporting my work! 🙏
@@SenseiSeth It’s considered the backbone of Japanese society 💪
@jesse I have a question/comment. You say that Kata has lost it's meaning due to the sands of time, but a lot of legitimate schools are not that far removed from the founders (Funakoshi Sensei passed in 1957, Miyagi Sensei 1953, Mabuni Sensei 1952, Otsuka Sensei 1982). I think it's more a function of politics (whether it's regarding sport rules, how it became mainstream, etc) and mysticism that went unchallenged that made it that way. Thoughts? (big fan of your channel btw)
Karate basics=alphabet
Karate moving basic = words
Kata= basic sentence (the dog is brown)
1 step sparring = pre set conversion I.e. “hi my name is Jordan” “nice to meet you “
Shadow boxing=poetry
Sparring=conversation
Fighting = serious debate
Self defense = argument
Defending yourself from a firearm= verbal abuse
@@christopherwalker810 hahaha
I would call shadowboxing freestyling and not necessary poetry
I would rather call bunkai poetry
@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh why is that?
It's obvious they're different.
I'm 14-4-2 in my shadow boxing fights, but 22-1-2 in Kata fights
Jesse: Wearing full gi, in his dojo, proper camera setup
Shane: Sweater, on the couch, filmed on his phone
I’m an overachiever 😩
@@KARATEbyJesse Så svenskt 😂👏
The founder of Kyokushin termed karate in 3 ways - Kion being the alphabet, Kata as the sentences, and Kumitie as being the conversation.
May I ask what Kumitie is?
@@LittleRapGuy sparring / fights
So basically, kata is practicing form with pre-determined scenarios and moves and shadowboxing is free flowing application of form with more realistic, imperfect, and spontaneous situations
No. if you practice kata as pre-determined scenarios then you have missed the point.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich If katas are not form for pre-determined scenarios, that what are they?
@@mlkvblendzior I could be wrong but this is what I understood katas are solo drills, to help you get muscle memory of how to do certain action correctly and shadow boxing is you applying those drills in free flowing application.
@@mlkvblendzior For me Kata works well for situations where you don't want to overthink things. If you are ambushed there isnt time to come up with a plan. Its good to respond with a few moves that cover as much ground as possible until you can get your head in the game. A lot of Katas cover similar territory using gross motor movements for attack and defense over a wide area. That said I only have a couple short katas I focus on currently.
@@paulcastro8790 Not really. In kata I often seen moves that are between debatle at best and totally useless. For example - why in kata punchces are mostly thrown from armpit, while in combat you throw them mostly from the normal guard. Not to mention about other goofy strikes like spear hand. Covering as much ground with as little effort as possible can excerciesd with much simpler and more efficient drills.
So the whole defence of katas by karate nerds (which I've used to be) looks like "We've spent a lot of time on bullshit and now we are looking any means to justify it".
Sensei Seth being the Tony Stark of the UA-cam Martial Art Universe (YMAU, it's a thing now!). You defo are the glue that brings all these youtubers together! :D
Hmmm.. I wouldn’t mind having Tony stark money!! Lok
Facts
I wouldn't mind being a part of that collab.
I can't see the word kata without hearing it in Jesse's voice. I knew we'd be seeing him just by the title haha great video.
This made me think maybe all my years of air drumming will pay off one day when I get a set. I've been doing drum kata my whole life!
What kata is your favorite?
Same 😂
There is also some modern new Katas, which are "non-traditional" and actually really just "sets" to train some body mechanics by repeating patterns.
Example: "The Kicking Kata" of Kyokushin Karate, "Sokugi Taikyoku Sono", in which "Kyokushin Crescent & Axe-Kicks" are trained.
Makes sense!
I've always seen it this way:
Kata is about turning technique to muscle memory;
Shadowboxing is meant for single-person practice.
Love it
Soooo kata is kinda like learning the words
Shadow boxing is rehearsing the conversation
Sparring/fighting is having the conversation
also basketball analogy was dope
I actually said this almost exactly but cut it because I started Rambljng 😂 exactly how I feel!
For me forms are really helpful for helping people learn techniques. It forces them to really focus down on a few techniques in addition to giving them a general idea of how the technique would be used. It's also useful to practice because it forces you to use and practice techniques that you might not otherwise incorporate into other exercises, since most people tend to stick to what they're already comfortable with when they're doing things like shadowboxing or bag work. It's not a replacement for those things, but can get you better results when done in tandem with those other exercises.
100%! Kata and shadowboxing are two separate but equally important exercises.
Bam!
@@SenseiSeth I prefer
BANG!
This is exactly how I teach jata over shadowboxing.
Kata is very clean cut moves. Shadowboxing is freeform.
I'm the kind of person who enjoys kata because it shows the technique and how it goes in a sequence, then we go into bunkai to see the application of each technique in each kata. Then shadowbox in order play around with the bunkai and techniques from the kata. That's how we do it in my dojo, in Goju ryu
Perfect reason to do Kata!
@@SenseiSeth and I understand why you teach kata, sensei Seth. I actually enjoy your videos. Still hoping you go to an Okinawan dojo or to Okinawa so you can compare your US style of karate with the country of origin later on this year
Thanks! Would love to
If you’ve ever been a police officer or served in the military, every time you’ve done drilling with your service weapon you’ve done kata.
Think about ;)
Apology not necessary, sir. I subbed specifically because I enjoy hearing your perspective about whatever topic you decide to highlight 😁
😂🙏
Yooooo you all put this in a way that I clearly understand both of these better than before. Going to add these both back into my routine more efficiently
Diving deeper into topics and analysing nuances is interesting and good content. Have a like Seth 👍🏻
Thanks! 🙏
To make it simple, Kata is drilling. You work body mechanics for a specific set of movement and muscle group. Shadowboxing is fighting without an opponent, where you try to invoke reflex, reaction, counters, pressure, mind game, etc. Both are essential to any martial art and/or combat sport.
As a Wing Chun practitioner myself, this resonates with me quite a bit. Most schools will have you spending an irrational amount of forms/katas and then instruct you to mechanically repeat those movements with a partner, and they would call it a "fight". We should totally start learning from Karate and other TMAs with a solid tradition of practical applications.
I think most karate practitioners like metaphors a lot👍 also on the way to 90k🔥
👏👏👏
I am really surprised that I didn’t hear kata spoken about in a better light.
It’s not just strikes and techniques
It’s a lexicon of the systems methodology of fighting including the techniques mindset powerdelivery rules of movement
At the highest levels kata becomes a spiritual exercise.
I always saw Katas as a cool-down between drills or workouts. A way to keep practicing while resting.
Kata is like learning how to write individual letters. The letters are only useful if you understand the language and make those letters into a word. I can have beautiful handwriting but be unable to write a cohesive sentence.
The best description I came up with was "coreographed shadow boxing"
I look at katas as specific workouts. As an adult who was never athletic during childhood and adolescence, I understand their importance because movements that might feel natural to an athletic person need to be built afresh in the muscle memory of someone like me. To give you an example of my lack of athleticism, it took me years to figure out how to actually throw a punch without being totally stiff, and my punching still isn't any good, but I can tell that it is closer to the "correct" technique (i.e., one that will actually work).
For year i thought kata was pointless because i'm not gonna do that if i'm in a fight so i took Muay Thai. now i understand tyvm for the explanation especially the basketball comparison
Your analogy of using basketball and breaking it down to its component pieces is way better than mine. I used to use baseball. You have batting practice, you practice bunting, the coach wants you to do nothing but hit to the opposite field. You're at second base, and someone does nothing but hit ground balls to you - and they ask you to fire it home.
Then there's inter-squad teams. And then - the big game. But I think I like your basketball analogy better, because there's more individual skills in basketball that's needed than baseball.
Many thanks. Good video.
I do both. Kata helps me create moves I wouldn't think of. And shadow boxing helps me apply those moves
These crossovers are amazing.
I've always looked at Kata as an encyclopedia of techniques that works in compliment with written catalogue techniques . Its a foundation for fluid free style sparing.
Yes!
My sensei says individual techniques are like letters and kata is like alphabet. Some combinations in sequences we call kihon are like words. I really like the analogy
A lot of the oldest kata in existence look like short repetitive drills. Look at Hsing I kung fu for example.
The longest kata I’ve ever seen is from Lohan kung fu. It’s 256 movements long and designed to teach body mechanics and rhythm more so than fighting techniques (although it has those, two man drills too).
When you work your kata, you can repeat certain movements over and over and then return to the sequence. You can drill individual moves from the kata on their own. You can start doing a kata and then flow into shadow boxing. You can do the footwork from the kata with different hands or no hands at all. You can train kata without thinking about fighting applications and just work on body mechanics. Do kata fast, slow, backwards...
Try to find the “themes” in the beginning of kata and use those ideas to decipher the rest of the form.
And if you haven’t binged watched Iain Abernethy’s videos about kata yet, go do that right now.
Well said my man. I think there is a little more to kata than what you've said, but generally I agree. One aspect of kata that I like is taking basics and making them flow.
I always thought that kata was primarily a way to pass an art down before we had cameras or UA-cam (for younger readers, as hard as this is to believe, UA-cam wasn’t very good in the 19th century). The fighting methods, techniques and applications were laid out in the katas. Memorizing and then teaching others the forms were a way of keeping the art alive. I don’t think they are useless now but I think there is less of a need for them as there are much more efficient training methods and better, more comprehensive ways of passing the arts along.
Thank you, my last "coach" said that same stupid statement. I appreciate you breaking this down!
I was kinda 50/50 on kata for a while. Now, especially for solo training, it can definitely be useful. I tried to relearn my old taekwando katas, and it was definitely a challenge, I remember certain parts but not all of them. And throughout doing it, I could feel my breath getting slightly heavier and my legs felt it more. Plus the mental training of remembering and overall learning. You're training your brain to remember things which can be very important in a fight.
I liked this video and I agree, also what Jesse said made me think that I would absolutely suck at Japanese kata because I literally never learnt a single kata in the proper order so I just made up my own with the moves I learnt in class because that made more sense in my child head. (I still think that was a good decision)
Oh I’m terrible at Kata (maybe because I don’t practice it) 😬😂
Loved this video. Kata is a good teaching tool for those who understand how to use it. Kata is also good for those looking to practice Karate-Do or the artistic side of Karate. Kata can have different value to different people. The key is honesty. If you are practicing kata without sparring, don’t expect to be good at fighting. If you are practicing sparring without kata, don’t expect your combat movements to look like one of the Machida brothers. That being said, neither is the wrong path. But be realistic about what you are practicing and why you are practicing it.
I feel good already knowing sensei is back, G'day Seth, welcome back. Love from an Aussie in down under 🤙🔥🇭🇲 interesting video, learning bout Kata & different to shadow boxing.
This was actually recorded beforehand 😕 kiiinda back
@@SenseiSeth that's good enough for me mate, least your with us in spirit or chi...hmmm 😋
Always enjoy your videos. I agree that kata is excellent homework for when you just get started in martial arts. Now that I am older, it is also excellent for trying to maintain balance, flexibility, and coordination. As always, thank you 🙏
sensei seth bringing in the big guns 😂
Gotta do something!
I love it when I see a Karate Sensei who looks good shadow boxing. Good hand flow. Open not closed to other styles. Very smart. 🥋✌👍🤙
I feel like this is the perfect reasoning behind practical application of the movements in kata, and the combination of the two. The moments themselves have a flow from one another, and into one another. That doest mean that each move has to absolutely come after one another. But more than once I've noticed both in a random fight and full contact sparing, I've noticed specific sections maybe even really just two movements that come free from a kata.
I used to hate doing kung fu forms, but now i find it very relaxing and kind of therapeutic
Made me think, I'm glad I did this as a kid. As a young boy in safe space karate it allowed me practice my kicks and punches over and over. If you have a kata with 10 side kicks and you do it 10 times in one class, you've just done 100 side kicks plus whatever else. It is exactly like writing lines. It's pure repetition till you understand the moves, then you can use them on your own.
Agreed! Awesome video. Agree 10000%. Kata /form is just a drill and a way to transfer information. It was never meant to be a way to measure fighting ability or rank
I see them as more like two sides of the same coin instead of as two exactly identical things that exist simultaneously without variation. Good video thanks for posting!
Forms in kung fu is like very wild kata, with tons of lost applications
I think your analogy was spot on and easy to understand
Thanks Robert!
I think of kata as much like what soldiers do on the parade ground. Watching soldiers 'square bashing' its crystal clear that what they're doing is a billion miles away from laying face down in mud, shooting and being shot at during a battle. But the things they do on the parade ground, not dropping their rifles and always knowing exactly where they're supposed to be and exactly where they're mates are, is kind of important.
I’ve been out of karate practice for years now, and I’ve been thinking about Kata a lot. IMO, a kata essentially summarises a bunch of techniques in a sort of flow, which you can break down into different techniques and applications, and go from there.
Great breakdown Sensei Seth! I like to practice Tai Chi, not for the moves but for the purposeful focus of my base/posture/structure/balance. The same approach can be used when learning a new technique from whatever style you want to pick. Going "Tai Chi slow" is great to make sure you're moving the way you should be moving, a lot can be overlooked when going too fast. I like to go Tai Chi slow when learning new takedowns or throws too, I've learned how to really capitalize on the method and I think many other people could learn faster/proper when doing it.
If you can't do it slow, why should you be able to do it fast?
Thanks for the content!
That was a really good explanation and analogy.
Oss Sensei Seth!!! I’ve always thought of kata as a really good foundational exercise for stance-work, balance and leg strengthening. Plus if you crank through like 6 or 7 katas at full speed and power without stopping it’s a damn good workout hahaha
I agree!!
They are basically meditation in motion. It's like practicing the four limbs of yoga in martial arts form. (abstinences), niyama (observances), asana (posture), pranayama (breathing), pratyahara (withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (absorption).
So it's meditation ?
One of my Taiji teacher told me "you must go from no form through form to no form" .
Meaning the functional practice designs the form then practice of the form makes you better at functional movements.
Problem in most taiji school is that they only do forms...
But taiji isn't a martial art.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich yes it is. it's root is in fighting, and it has a competitive practice like and sumo or greco-roman wrestling called pushing hands. It just evolved in a more health oriented practice.
And most modern schools only do forms. Hence you believing it's not a martial art.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich There's a bare few schools out there that practice it in the martial form, but when it is, it works out to being primarily a stand-up grappling system. However, it's mostly the chi gung (qi gong... various spellings) exercises from it that have widely spread, and some of what is often called "taiji" are actually chi gung exercises lifted from other styles of kung fu.
@@Cailean_MacCoinnich If it's of any interest to you you can watch this ua-cam.com/video/zOnEARtQYRk/v-deo.html
Finally someone who knows and can give the answers!
Kata is like doing the alphabet your doing a couple of moves and stances in a order, while shadowboxing is like an freestyle doing different punches acting like there is an opponent
Music: Kata is practicing scales/chord progressions.
Sparring is writing a song/jamming
Don’t fully agree Sensei, for when shadow boxing, we do find ourselves subconsciously running through set drills, jab-jab-cross-hook etc, which ok, isn’t anywhere near as strict as kata, but still the same principle in part...
Sensei Seth on the road to 100k subscribers this summer! 👊
Yessir!!
As a practitioner I like shadowboxing but as an instructor I like Kata. When a student does their Kata I can tell where, when and how they are failing or excelling. If they are shadowboxing I don't know if they did certain moves to counter a made up opponent but if they are doing Kata I know exactly where and when they may or may not have made a mistake, even if it's just a slight error of body position or transition of body mechanic.
On fun thing my Dojo did was a) learn kata, b) learn the one-steps involved in kata, c) Randori using kata. Still formulaic but closer to an actual fight and I believe it did help in sparring.
Nice! Awesome
Kata of a syllabus of moves - applications and body methods. You practice them all at once in sequence so you don't forget anything, but drill them individually to perfect them.
Shadowboxing is just as you described - it is not drilling moves.
The reason why kata gets compared to shadow boxing is to encourage the visualization and not just repeat a pattern without intent.
I don’t know what kata is 😂, but forms are really nice to practice transition, and technique so we can commit it to muscle memory. Don’t want to have to think about it when we need it. I love shadow boxing. It’s like taking print and then learning cursive. Thanks for being great. Now for a question. Have you ever used a side kick as a throw/take down? I don’t know if I’m just lucky but I’ve had some great success with it.
That ending cracked me up XD
Taira Masaji, the head of Okinawa Gojuryu Kenkyu Kai has great bunkai, he changes very little when going from kata to applications.
your jabs are looking nice, Sensei Seth
I love the points you brought as well as you guests. I liked the point Jesse made about Katas not being meant only for solo training. This can be seen across several Japanese martial arts. There are Kata in some Japanese Jujitsu styles, Judo, Aikido and in Japanese weapons such as the Jō for example. These katas involve two participants which help to bridge the gap between techniques and application. Granted that these katas are generally shorter than karate katas where you often have a single kata or groups of katas that represent an entire style or concept of combat. Take for example the motions of changing levels of Kushanku (Kankudai), close quarters engagement as implied in Nainhanchi (Tekki) or defending against an armed assailant as in Jutte.
Kata are basically for beginners so they can learn the techniques available. Never go into a fight with expectations. If anything, Work on reading your opponents through sparring. Work on defense, work of offense, kick 1000 times. Punch 1000 times, train right handed, train left handed. Absorb everything into your instincts
You look really good! I'm glad your back in action!
Not back in action, old recording 😔
You had me thinking you were superhuman. Lol
Hope you have a fast recovery!
I was thinking the same 🙁 Wishing you a quick recovery, mate.
For me, the kata of karate-do are:
* exercises that include representations of techniques passed down from the kata creators
* a performance art form (like high-diving or gymnastics or dance which are judged by their aesthetics)
* moving meditation, like a form of yoga
Deciding to focus on one or another aspect of kata is a personal choice, and I appreciate all the different points of view.
So it meditation like yoga ?
i do practice both forms and shadow simply because the form is a great way to practice the moves and keep them sharp, and maeby improve them, and shadow to actually use them if i can and to practice without more people.
I like to add the variable speeds and intensities of shadow boxing to my kata
Love these videos and the videos on other karate styles. I’m a kyokushin black belt and like learning about other styles of karate
Nice! Jesse does. Great job with those videos!
I practice ITF taekwon-do and we practice a lot of patterns, or tuls, which is the same as kata. The main difference I see between training patterns and shadowboxing is what are you training.
In patterns we focus a lot on using your weight correctly, on rotation, on how you should execute a movement in order for it to be effective, on how the pathing of the technique should be. Shadowboxing is about practing these techniques you've developed in a more realistic and fluid way. Katas, or tuls, are terrible for simulating a fight, even though they are technically supposed to be that, the movement sequence is often stiff and unrealistic.
Even though we don't execute the moves in a fight the same way we practice in the katas or tuls, having that rotation, breathing and correct use of body weight really internalized through repetitive practice allows us to do kind of a reduced version of that when fighting or shadowboxing.
On shadowboxing you're not really focusing on how to throw a good jab or cross, you're more focused on the sequence, making it fluid, transitioning from blocking to attacking and back, creating angles, realistic sequences, and if you do that when your technique is bad you will solidify bad technique.
So katas are mostly to develop, perfect and internalize isolated techniques, in shadowboxing you practice getting more fluid and dynamic with those techniques in a controeld enviroment where you dictates what's happening and what the "opponent" is doing, and sparring is where you actually test and apply those concepts together with an uncooperative opponent, which is crucial (plese don't ever think you can learn to fight through katas and shadowboxing only. You can't).
You can also add bag work, pad work, pre determined drills with a partner, like practicing defending or dodging an specific technique and counter attacking but during a free movement style drill where you don't know how or when the opponent is going to use that technique.
I believe everything has it's function and can be really important and useful. But I've seen great fighters who have never done any type of kata but I've never seen great fighters who have only done kata and similar training, so that says something too.
In general, for short, everything can work and have its function if you practice enough. Except Aikido.
In short:
Kata is more self-defense based
Shadowboxing is more free-form
At beginner level shadowboxing you might do things thats less important. At kata everything is predetermined.
Practicing combos in shadowboxing is more similar to kata though. Except you can choose your own predetermined moves (wich might be better if you know what you're doing).
If you like analogies, here's one that's a little closer to home (less for you and more for kata). In Buddhism, there's a practice of "sutra copying" (抄經/chāo jīng in Chinese or 写経/shakyo in Japanese), where you hand-scribe a sutra as a devotional practice to accumulate merit. You try to copy the sutra exactly, perfectly, focusing on both the calligraphy to write the characters correctly, and meditate on the meaning of the words as you go. It's a means of memorizing and internalizing the sutra and its meaning, which is deceptively complex, and only through constant practice does it reveal its secrets to the initiate.
Hohan Soken Sensei famously said that "The answers are all in the kata." Like the sutra, the concepts and applications are there hidden in plain sight; even if the teaching of the individual applications are lost, the choreography of the kata leaves them buried shallowly, so they can be unearthed and rediscovered. As karateka develop and continue to practice, their relationship to the kata is bound to change. The kihon form the foundation of movement, the kata expands that vocabulary, and the bunkai breaks the kata back down into smaller components that become more advanced kihon in their own right. Shadowboxing is jumbling up all that kihon to prepare one for a real fight, imagining your opponent and visualizing their movement so you can respond and move with fluidity. Kumite is the consensual testing of these techniques, and real-world application is the ultimate expression of the accumulation of "merit," as it is immediate and unrehearsed, and has real consequence.
In Buddhism, kata is like shakyo, shadowboxing is like synthesizing your own spiritual poetry, and the real fight is living your life with compassion for all beings.
it’s amazing how you can come up with your own martial arts from doing shadow visualizations with a martial art you have watched from others
...what? Haha I don’t follow
In HEMA there are drills found in many sabre manuals, There's even one called solo drill found in "The art of defense on foot" by roworth 1798 which is basically a kata. Since sabre was a military weapon taught to a large number of recruits, the use of form or drills was widely use by instructors. I get the feeling that modern martial arts because they aren't taught to a large amount of practitioners at the same time, as old close combat weapons used to be taught in military training, there's no connection of kata and drill for most of them.
I had no idea there's even a comparison between the two
These are among the best training vids for anyone in the LGBTQ & str8 MA community 🙏
Seth since you said the word shadowboxing you'll have to eat and train like Iron Mike Tyson and make a video out of it (trust me it will improve your kicks and punches)
I always look at as something past shadow boxing really. Not better, but if you cant shadow box you cant understand kats either. This goes back to some old karate texts were the kata is viewed as a dictionary or repository of the technique that makes ip the art.
Everybody is always taking about that if karatekas do full contact they need to fix their striking, what’s your thoughts and solutions?
"Kata and Shadowboxing are NOT THE SAME," OBVIOUSLY!😁
The point made in video about shadowbox as like conversing ( as you do make the movements and not set ) as opposed to kata like homework is somewhat correct. However, Kata is pretty much like shadow boxing as it enforces you to get the coordination and technique correctly. When you're sparring,in in karate, you don't get to fulfill movements to their utmost, perfectly as their is that time element. When you do Kata, you get to fully execute thr technique, hopefully in there most correct form. Shadow boxing and Kata are the same, In that it teaches you coordination of doing all the techniques together. Just that Kata is predetermined, ill give it that.
Just saw the title and thought well obviously it can't be the same
The closest thing to Kata in boxing is perhaps the repetitive pad work your coach made you do when you started boxing?
I still think it's a good idea to regularly go over your kata as a regular practice are least 3xs a week. I made the mistake of not and now I only know a few and can't teach the rest. I am restarting the learning prices of basic goju ryu kata so I can start with private lessons.
I like to relearn them as I need to teach them!
In my opinion mitt work in boxing and kickboxing is somewhat similar to kata because a fighter must remember complex combinations of strikes and defence all in one time. Shadowboxing is done before the training to warm up and loose the muscles for the harder training like bag work pad work and sparring.
Hmmmm.. not really imo. SOMETIMES they can be! Like super long mitt work maybe, but they’d have to do the exact same sequence every time. Even mitt work reacts a small amount howeevvverrr, I’m convinced beginners that want to think they’re high level do exactly what you’re saying
@@SenseiSeth true. Pad work is somewhat shortened version of kata with shorter combinations, kata is complex and long with many elements of attack and defense. I think that the both excersises have same goal and that is to train the mind of a fighter to combine attack and defense and to remember long combos.
Love all your stuff always, but as a full-time Boxer I just have to add that if a Boxer is Shadowboxing and is imagining a "consensual opponent" all the time when theyre at that higher intensity level than they arent using Shadowboxing to its full potential.
Yes a Boxer could stand still and Shadowbox or not throw a punch a Sparring Round but no Coach would encourage that(or should anyway), and nobody should do that haha you "could" do that with any martial art, but would you? Should you? No sir
My main point I guess is that Shadowboxing and Kata are much more similar if you Shadowbox correctly. Even with your basketball example, Shadowboxing should also be done the same as the example you used for Kata, repetition is key in all Martial Arts
Depends on your philosophy of training. Kata is the basis of Karate. Performing kata takes, discipline, understanding of breathing, mental and spatial awareness, patience and also repetition. Its an aspect of Karate. At the end of the day, all the training translates to life in general.
put simply
kata is just you practicing the moves and getting better so that when a situation happens
you'll be proficient at doing the moves
shadowboxing is you fighting an invisible shadow
I liked the rant. I don't see why people discard kata as useless; they have specific purposes and should be part of the training... Not the most important thing, but they do help, especially to know your own body as you move around in a specific way.
Love the outro beat.