This conversation was very insightful about why when I questioned my former church family reacted so violently to my concerns. I was ejected from their circle and called a Marxist. Not only their utter certainty, but unwillingness to even discuss the issue with me left me baffled. The name calling was cruel. I left and went solo for four years, recently finding a much more balanced church group, and am slowly regaining confidence that there are reasonable believers out there. The Holy Post has been a life life during this time. God bless you all for doing what you do so well. I am eternally grateful.
Ditto! Except for the last part about finding a new church...still looking but I have visited one a few times that does specifically lay out points where differences are accepted and discussion is welcome. I have yet to try that out!
@hapennysparrow. I find myself in fundamentalist churches very sparingly, but I have encountered such such ferocity from time to time. What gets to me, however, is how French’s nervous metaphor of The Simpsons’ “Mr. Burns” seems strangely apt. This group, this movement, whatever it might be called (Vischer, Jethani, French, Beth and Russell Moore, etc.) seems just as excessive in their dogmatic certitude, just as anti-intellectual, just as politically partisan, and just as ferocious as full-blown fundamentalists. They go scorched earth on Christian Nationalists and Trump and science skepticism and the like, to the point of teaming up with Rob Reiner (talk about gobsmackingly dumb!) I’m left of center, both in terms of my Evangelicalism (where I am about as far left as you can get without losing the designation) and my politics. But I find these people (whom I should like) about as off-putting as it is possible to be. Quite honestly, I’d rather deal with overly pugnacious fundamentalists any day!
The pastor of the church (UCC) where I first worked as organist/choirmaster right after having my first child, from 1972-1977, said many wise things. Related to this, he told me, "There are two basic kinds of people in the world: not Republicans and Democrats , not Liberals and Conservatives, but rather CLOSED MINDED PEOPLE OR OPEN MINDED PEOPLE." IT'S SO MUCH EASIER, IN A COMPLICATED WORLD, TO BECOME CLOSED MINDED AND NOT LOOK FOR NUANCE OR DIVERSITY. IT'S SO MUCH EASIER TO LIVE ACCORDING TO STRICT RULES, RATHER THAN "THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF SITUATION ETHICS."
David: I am the husband of a cancer survivor. I want you to know that you have a community also. We know just how painful it is when someone you love has to go through this. I watched the video hoping to learn more about what fundamentalism is (and I did), but in the end the thing that struck me the most was the need for us all to see our lives in terms of the fruits of the spirit that we manifest.
I am the wife of a cancer survivor---so far! It was the hardest (so far) 15 months of our lives, but we are stronger. I don't wish it on anyone, but God will be there! And yes-the community of cancer care-givers is amazing.
I went through the same diagnosis with my wife 9 years ago this last thanksgiving. My wife struggled with depression when she finished chemotherapy because she missed her circle of sufferers. The community is so supportive. She struggles today with the side effects of chemo, but she is extremely grateful for life.
I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist and my pastor growing up would say all the time “You can be sincere but sincerely wrong” and it was always used to point out how everyone else was wrong and we were right. This episode is spot on.
This was such a great conversation, and rather convicting, since I recognize a susceptibility to certainty in my own beliefs. Thanks Skye and David! I’ll be praying for Nancy French.
I think the suggestion that we can’t be certain of our beliefs is also incorrect, because what really matters is what we do with them… or how we subjugate other beliefs to accommodate those we deem more important or more crucial. So we may have a belief that murder is wrong, but at some point we subjugate that to this belief that sinners “out there” are a danger to us. so then we justify either mistreating or going so far as to take the life of someone who we deemed to be a danger to ourselves, simply because of the sin (in our personal or congregational view) that they have in their life. That is where the danger comes in. It teaches us to hate people who are caught in a different sin pattern than we might personally indulge. But it is self-defeating to never be certain of what you believe. It’s the essence of postmodernism, and it can’t be sustained either.
@@paulacoyle5685it is necessary and healthy to not be certain of what you believe. We know only in part, as Paul puts it in the famous passage of his letter to the Corinthians. Any scientist worthy of the name can give a long list of how their field was wrong, and learned, and what they currently hold but are not confident about. Like all things, certainty has what Aristotle called a golden mean - not enough and too much are both a problem.
@@paulacoyle5685As was addressed in the video, what is meant by “lack of absolute certainty” is an openness to being wrong about what we think we know, and a recognition that there are limits to what we can know. It does not mean walking around in a perpetual quandary, believing that no information is reliable. Is it self-defeating to remain curious, to anticipate new developments and to seek diverse perspectives? I don’t think it is.
I needed this so much today as I deal with the painful scars in my life from some Christian fundamentalism themes (aka gothardism) and the shadows it cast on my upbringing. Thank you for explaining this so well and how fundamentalism can take hold in many places! Also, I have 2 aunts who had triple negative breast cancer and have been cancer free for a few years now. There is hope! 🙏
After my first two decades of life on the Canadian prairies, and then three decades in South America, I feel like I am still trying to find my footing in my wife's birth state of California. Fifteen years in journalism and 25 years in the pastoral world often leaves me with more questions than answers when it comes to life in the US-of-A. It didn't help to have been air-dropped into a place like LA County on the eve of Covid, along with extreme racial and political convulsions that followed soon after. I am a learnaholic and a bookaholic, and I found this conversation as helpful and enlightening as anything I have heard-especially from a sociological and anthropological perspective.
I grew up in the Church of Christ in northern Illinois, a far west suburb of Chicago. This analysis of that brotherhood is absolutely spot on. I tried to question the nature of what doctrine we had for decades, but eventually left when I realized nobody wanted to talk about it at all. Not even in small groups, where we were supposed to be free to question and discuss such issues. Instead, I got into verbal fist fights with fellow members who simply did not want to address such questions at all. Sad.
As someone who grew up in the churches of Christ in the 90s and 00s, I can confirm that David French's experience is still in place. (At least in my experience)
I'm in what would be called a 'progressive' Church of Christ; we have both acapella and instrumental music. A church in our area disfellowshipped us when we decided to add an instrumental service. More recently, our church decided to allow women full participation in leadership (with the exception of the eldership.) COVID hit a few months later. Between COVID, racial strife, and the 2020 election, we had a lot of people leave, some of whom were friends of mine, and I am still grieving their loss.
@alliematt1016 That sounds so familiar. Qanon and conspiracy theories have found a foothold. And the fundamentist belief structure (as described in the video) makes it easy to see how quick those theories take hold.
For 23 years I attended Christian churches/Churches of Christ (the conservative but instrumental branch of the Stone/Campbell movement). After moving to a small town, I joined a different church because of what was available there. My views have since changed yet I still felt that sense of being a traitor just yesterday when encountered by an old friend via facebook messenger about a particular tenet of that church’s stance on baptism. It’s hard to keep in contact with some old friends.
For 23 years I attended Christian churches/Churches of Christ (the conservative but instrumental branch of the Stone/Campbell movement). After moving to a small town, I joined a different church because of what was available there. My views have since changed yet I still felt that sense of being a traitor just yesterday when encountered by an old friend via facebook messenger about a particular tenet of that church’s stance on baptism. It’s hard to keep in contact with some old friends. I needed to hear this today.
I'm confused by the idea that everyone would be asking themselves what the definition of marriage is for themselves. Just because you have multiple options available to you now doesn't mean you suddenly have changed who you are attracted to. I.e. 90%+ of the population of men are attracted women and they still can marry women. For the remainder of us it's less like more options have been added and more like a relief that I have options I can enjoy. To use Skye's Starbucks analogy it's a bit like having a dairy allergy and walking into a Starbucks today and being relieved that I have options for "milks" and I can enjoy my coffee like other people can and I'm not forced to drink it black or suffer allergic reaction like I would have 20 years ago when the only cream options were ones that would give me a headache and worse. Now when oatmilk is on the menu I genuinely doubt that the majority of people even consider that an option, you have to already have a preexisting reason to not choose cow milk (could be allergy or an ethical reason) but someone is not going into Starbucks confused because they have "so many options for milk" because the majority of people still go "milk cones from cows, duh" your analogy falls apart when you think that all choices come down to preference, more choices help more people to live, just like how a choice for a braille menu helps blind people order normally when a majority of people don't even consider that "a choice'
Good point. He hates capitalism. That’s why he calls it consumer capitalism like that has some meaning. Is there a consumer socialism? He used a weak analogy to try to disparage capitalism and it failed
@@robbower5489 you seem a little defensive about what is really simply an abstract way to describe economic activity. Furthermore, it's one that has many different manifestations, including some that have been dominated by greed and corruption. The word capitalism means different things to different people. That is why he qualified it with the word consumer.
The first few minutes is funny to me, because as an atheist I still like to listen to what christians say today to keep well rounded. I like to listen to The Holy Post because they have meaningful discussions on religion and the practices of the church today. Am I a fundamentalist atheist? I would argue Atheism has no dogma, so there can't be a fundamentalist position. Atheism just rejects the claim that any god exists, it doesn't tell people how to live or how to think. It's just a rejection of a god claim. I just like to be a good person, and I think that should be universal among all people no matter what religion or non religion you are, and I can tell the hosts and contributors at THP are good people.
I think fundamentalist atheism would be more or less those who can't engage peacefully with theists and insist religion in all forms is inherently evil with no positive attributes. Less common than fundamentalist Christianity, but certainly out there.
I appreciate that you take the time to listen to alternative dialogue. Of course as a Christian it is my hope that you are stirred by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as your Savior. It never hurts to try something "cooler" 😊 and even everlasting. Peace and love to you.
@MaryM-pp9xu Well, who says that accepting jesus as my savior is "cooler"? I had a friend of 30 years that got "born again" tell me that I have no meaning in my life. That's not "cool", that's actually very harmful. If having the spirit stir in me compels me to say to other long term friends the same as he did, then no thank you. Every person has meaning in their life. My wife has meaning to me and vice versa, bringing people the joy of art has meaning. Doing what makes me happy has meaning, that includes NOT telling other people they don't have meaning. Being an atheist is no cooler than being a christian, no cooler than being a buddhist or satanist or scientologist. For that reason, I'm never going to "hope" you lose your faith because that's what gives you joy and YOU meaning. I don't "hope" you become anything else than what you are, unless you are hurting others. If you are hurting others because of what you believe, then you should probably re-examine your beliefs.
I think you're playing with semantics a little. Atheism by its dictionary definition and etymology has no dogma, but atheism _as a cultural movement_ absolutely does. The atheist can say, echoing the Protestant, that "we have no pope." But that doesn't mean we don't have factions, thought leaders, heretics, and, yes, fundamentalist subcultures. Mostly I'm talking about humanism here, but the Venn diagram between humanists and atheists is such that I think the distinction, in the West at least, is almost academic. So, if you like, think about the question of whether you're a fundamentalist atheist humanist. It's not a definitionally incoherent question. Or, to put it another way, it's fair to say that atheism as a concept has nothing to say about prominent Internet atheists Rebecca Watson and Dr. Phil "thunderf00t" Mason, but you absolutely _cannot_ deny that they have collected extremely loyal, mutually antagonistic followings. They are not messianic figures, but they're not _not_ messianic figures.
Dear David, dear Skye ~ It wasn't until my best friend from childhood and I agreed to listen to each other WITHOUT INTERRUPTING, about 15 years ago, that I understood there was an actual reason BEYOND THE SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN for being "pro-life." While my faith tells me, and always has, that "with the breath comes life," Diane convinced me that she, and many others BELIEVED ABORTION TO BE MURDER OF A LITTLE BABY, AT ANY POINT AFTER CONCEPTION. Once I understood her sincerity, I knew two things. 1. We would NEVER AGREE. 2. I had to respect how deeply she believed her belief, and take her seriously. ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, MANY HAVE NOT HAD THE CHANCE TO LISTEN TO SOMEONE THEY LOVE AS I DID. WOMEN MAY FEEL THAT ANTI-ABORTIONISTS ARE JUST AFTER THEIR LIVES AND FREEDOM--AND PERSONHOOD.
I’m not sure how you’ve missed that- it’s exactly what the entire pro-life camp has been saying for about 40 years. Unfortunately it has also been packaged in judgment toward single mothers, refusal to offer care for people struggling, etc., etc. The failure of the pro life camp has been a refusal to provide for the care of babies and mothers pre and post-partum. But the message that it’s a human being at conception and killing it is murder has been a consistent message for at least 40 years. I have never in my life heard a pro-life person argue for banning abortion because they want to “subjugate women.” That’s the perennial accusation but it’s categorically false. Many people have sought to subjugate women in many ways for many reasons. That’s not one of them.
Praying for your family David Husband of a cancer survivor. Grew up RC now a member of the CC/COC instrumental so I see the fundemental divide on a personal level. I think certainty in Faith is essential but I love the classical Restorationist movement. People like Alexander Campbel and David Lipscomb is why I am Christian still today.
I'm 66 and I don't know anything. But I do believe that there is an actual truth. That there is a correct interpretation of scripture. And that there is a plumb fundamentalism. And that it is worth the trouble to find it.
I've always believed that if a person has to resort to name calling or threats to defend their position (without what the Bible refers to as "gentleness and respect") then they've already lost the debate
I consider myself a fundamentalist. Love the stranger. Take care of the poor. Do the things that make for peace and the building up of one another. It's very fundamental. ☮☮🕊🕊☯☯🙏🙏4 softening the hearts of the aggressors and relieving the suffering of victims.
Ok but that isn’t what was meant by “fundamentalist” when the term began to be used in the 19th century and it isn’t what it means now. Fundamentalism as a movement began as an opposition to modernism and has no direct connection to any of the things you listed. Fundamentalism is primarily based on what you *oppose,* rather than on what you do.
@@76JStucki Thanks for the reply. Yup. "Fundamentalists" have high-jacked the term. To quote the caterpillar, "When I choose a word to mean, the word means what I choose it to mean." Let's put the fun back in FUNdamentalism. 🎉🎉😊😊😎😎
Thank you, David French! Thank you that FINALLY at the very end (for 5 min, starting at 1:03 min) we get the true perspective that this pattern of dangerous fundamentalism has existed throughout the historical church & will always until Christ returns & redeems & glorifies His good world. What would happen if the THP proportions were slightly switched to MORE minutes on the Goodness, Sovereignty, Justice, Mercy, Patience & unchanging Love of our Heavenly Father - and take time to encourage people MORE in our real hope found only in Christ, rather than so much emphasis on the scoffing/critical, self-centered focus on your/our evangelical group? Please consider giving people MORE⏱️ time on TRUTH & HOPE in the LORD! This gets discouraging after listening for the past 4 years; yet I am SO GRATEFUL for these last 5 min of your conversation!
Interesting topic. Although some may find confusing your definition of "fundamentalism" vs. the historic movement based on the series of articles "The Fundamentals" which stood for essentials of the faith like the Virgin Birth, the Deity of Christ, etc. in the wake of "higher criticism" and the liberal/modernist movement in much of American Protestantism. This was followed by Evangelicalism which held many of the same beliefs but with a different tone, at least originally. There is overlap, of course, but for those who proudly wear the label "Fundamentalist" it is important to realize that it didn't begin as a pejorative or an attitude, but as a movement reaffirming historic Christian beliefs. I remember news reporters using "fundamentalism" in the way you describe circa 1980 - they'd talk about the antics of some backwards "Fundamentalist" preacher; then the next story would be about Islamic Fundamentalism. I'd be annoyed, because I saw "the Fundamentals" as a set of beliefs, not as an attitude. But I realize now there is a tendency for any group to become "fundamentalist" along your definition.
Can there be a series about Just War theory eventually and it’s influence today? I really do feel like some people disagree with some of the points you guys make because there’s a difference in when taking up arms is actually justified to begin with. And I say that as someone who agrees with you all
Suggesting that fundamentalism is a response to a broad society full of options and freedom of thought may be true but it doesn't mean that kind of society is any worse than a society that limits thought and freedoms so people don't question what might be wrong or only do right based on prescription and not sincere decisions. 1 Peter 3 tells us to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that we have. Not only does this mean we should engage with the question but be prepared to be part of an "evil" society that questions us, maybe even reviles us, yet we should be gentle in our response. We are taught that fundamentalism is the wrong response to society, not that we must fervently control society to prevent being questioned.
As usual great explainer. I had forgotten about Bill G. I remember all these men being so proud going to this seminar then naively convinced they were transformed in to different fathers and husbands.. well meaning and looking for answers. Wonderful describing psychology vs theology- and the threesome charcteristics- 100% certain, ferocious/pious, & solidarity potentiating when they get together. It IS so hard to not think they are stupid or so misled.
Haven't watched yet: but is fundamentalism growing? I was under the impression that American Christianity as a whole is shrinking, but just less quickly from the from the fundamentalists, which is what makes them a higher percentage.
I agree, the Pew Research group who have followed religious belief and practice in the USA for many decades say that as a share of the whole US population Christianity is shrinking so the overall number of Christians is smaller than it was for example in the 1970’s. However Pew does show that fundamentalist evangelical Pentecostalist style Christianity is growing in certain sectors of the US population especially among Hispanics/Latino’s and at the expense of Roman Catholicism. Overall though America is becoming more secular and in that definition I include those whose ‘faith’ is just a social label. They are for example cultural Christians or cultural Jews.
"GOODNESS IS STRONGER THAN EVIL. LOVE IS STRONGER THAN HATE. LIGHT IS STRONGER THAN DARKNESS. LIFE IS STRONGER THAN DEATH. VICTORY IS OURS THROUGH HIM WHO LOVES US." ~ Desmond Tutu
Good morning from the drizzly SF Bay Area. Prayers for your wife's journey to recovery. I grew up in an evangelical family, my father was a Presbyterian minister/Navy chaplain/family counsellor, my grandfather was a Free Methodist minister/missionary, and on and on with the family. I knew from a very young age that the church had precious little to do with Jesus' teachings, so I went on a quest to find him outside the dictates of the Bible and its churches. You guys have so much excellent insight and commitment to following truth, I love listening to you, but are still stuck in the prophetic ancient patriarchal teachings of polygamist tribalism. It's just plain old fashioned and out of date with evolved spiritual understandings. Same with fundamentalist atheism. When I hear those guys they sound so old fashioned, their arguments are like jello, wibbly wobbly and see through. Jesus' teachings are all about living and growing, evolving into a spiritually enlightened child of God. We are a worldwide family of God and must learn how to stop squabbling about who holds the truth. We have to stop killing each other, it's horrible what we have done and are doing in the name of God, Allah, Jesus, Mohammed, and any other thing we fight over. In the end, we all have bits and bobs and the whole picture will emerge when all the puzzle pieces are fitted together. I cannot imagine the grief Jesus must feel watching these wars of words and deeds.
The only reason places like Harvard are sticking out is that they are directly challenging the “fundamentalism” (as defined in the conversation) of American society generally. That said, there are some “forbidden” topics in liberalism that result in blind spots and that, as a liberal, I know I need to be less… fundamentalist about. There’s a real hazard here in identifying fundamentalism (as defined) as “something other people do.”
The Trumpist fundamentalism on the Right is now routine. They cannot be reached thru any avenue, including even very basic theology like Love Your Neighbor. As a Lefty myself, I'm very disappointed to find empty fundamentalism in the Left. That's not what progressive values are about. Whataboutism isn't a good response. Progressives should be open and transparent about examining our positions. Needless to say, I've been disappointed far too often and it leaves me without hope for the future. The number of adults in the room is vanishingly small.
Thanks guys! I love you two together. Actually don’t listen to anyone else on UA-cam for faith conversation. I worry that fundamentalism will only get worse and what the Christian faith will look like in the future. I have a friend that is fundamentalist and she is quick to point to select scripture to defend her stance. I’m not good at being put on the spot or debate. Can you help me or give me direction on how to defend myself?
O I hope our children are being raised to have the bandwidth to deal gracefully and wisely with diverse solutions, with diverse religions, with even diverse holiday tradition, so that they can make decisions on their own without feeling "overwhelmed by the giant menu."
Very well laid out, and crucial, discussion from an academic standpoint. Unfortunately, there are real people who are moment by moment being added to the causality lists outside the academic halls. While it may be true that the church will self correct over time, how do we prevent, or heal, all the inevitable casualties... which should be our focus? Thankfully, as you say, God is the God of surprises ...
Yes. It's always slayed me the "we'll get there in time and Jesus will make everything right" while the body count of victims piles up. Too many Christians are so self-focused they don't care about the people being hurt and have such a lax attitude about change... but they sure do have a sense of "urgency" whenever it affects them.
I sympathize with the choice paralysis and why that makes fundamentalism so appealing. When nietzsche made his famous "God is dead" remark he wasn't speaking literally. He was lamenting the dissappearance of a shared source of meaning and a whole form of human life around it. So when I see more fundamentalist sects of Christianity with traditionalist aesthetics, to me they are mourning that dead god.
As an outsider, it's wild to hear David and Skye give such a sharp description of (fundamentalist) religion! I'm curious how they differentiate normal christian practice from those three characteristics (faith, "ferocity", and solidarity) - there seems to be a lot of overlap!
Wow David!! Apparently we shouldn’t believe with absolute certainty what we absolutely believe and call absolute truth. I guess I’ll believe halfway? Maybe then I’ll get a job as a NY times “opinion” propagandist and be lauded as a “true conservative”
David French let the truth slip out at the end - “we spend our time condemning…uh not condemning but critiquing fundamentalism”. Sorry but David French said the correct word the first time.
@@Justanotherconsumer Good point. My 4th grade teacher (1975) told us a of a time she was a child at church (I'm guessing 1930's). Anyway, An elderly visitor walked in & exclaimed, "This is just AWFUL!" (My teacher, as a young child, was very confused).
David French's response that some people agreed with him until they found out he was Pro-Life, reminds me of the reaction Ted Nugent often gets when they love his guitar playing until they find out he's a Conservative---then all of a sudden his guitar playing is crap. Now that's what I consider the "closed-mindedness" of the Left
Works both ways. People think actors are brilliant and talented until they find out they are vocally liberal. That's considered the closed-mindedness of the right. So what's your point?
Nugent’s talent is neither here nor there to me, as I never liked his music, but, he is hardly a model “Conservative.” He has made vile statements that turn the stomachs of many Conservatives, and much of what he stands for is far outside their values. There’s reason enough for anyone- liberal or conservative- to disavow the man, never mind his guitar-playing.
The critical question is not whether you are ‘pro-life’ in terms of abortion but rather if you are ‘pro-choice’ or not. I am anti-abortion personally but I am pro-choice (at least up to 15 weeks in an otherwise normal pregnancy) and I strongly believe that it’s the free will choice of the pregnant woman herself what she decides.
Why do you believe what you believe if you don’t believe it absolutely? What the heck’s the point? You just run around Constantly half doubting yourself? What a terrible way to live.
I am always working with the best evidence-based knowledge I have right now. I try to stay open to new evidence, new ideas, new information. It is not "half doubting," it's being open to new information. It's how you grow. It's how you function as a lifelong learner. Fundamentalism, at least in part, is based on a desire to cease changing in a chaotic world in which everything is always changing.
Jesus' suffering was not dying on the cross. As it says in Genesis, "you will strike his heel." Jesus suffered for our sins as he laid out: I was hungry and you didn't feed me, thirsty and you didn't give me drink, etc. That's how he suffered for our sins. He suffered for 33 years. If you want to be persecuted, tell the church members they need to do more to support the poor. They'll call you a "socialist" or a "communist." When Jesus talked about persecution from "the world" he talked about the prophets who were killed by Jews, not by Gentiles. Jesus was killed by Jews, not by Gentiles. The "world" is in the pews persecuting the sheep.
Native Americans are free from sea to shining sea. If Israel can't exist in peace with a diverse population, that is an indictment of Israel. Herod was also a psychopath.
Love the show. Don't buy this "fundamentalism is how you believe not what." I doubt Sky would consider himself a Fundamentalist, but if you asked him whether or not Jesus was God I think he's going to be pretty certain and he's going to be willing to draw some pretty Stark boundaries around the Christian Community and that particular belief. Fundamentalists just have more beliefs of this form. They have more beliefs that are functionally litmus tests to maintain a community like that you need lots of personal in public control. Individuals need to cultivate a strong sense of guilt to help them maintain Community standards and leaders need to exert lots of control and project Authority 2 in forest and help inculcate the particular forms of guilt that the community needs. There's obviously a chicken or egg problem when it comes to what personalities appear in those communities though. I also think sky is on to something with this foreground and background beliefs thing, but I think capitalism is just a vehicle for putting people into contact with other ways of life, new technologies in the science that undergirds them, etcetera.
@@Justanotherconsumer i would but they do not want me back i asked my cousin in amsterdam and thye say they are full up and americans talk to much and smell like gunpowder your stuck with me andbesides we were here first we bought the whole fucking fro the red man for 24$ worht of beads
@@MrBillcaleexcept we weren’t here first, and the “purchase” was based on a completely different understanding of the land (a court would likely say the contract was unenforceable because it was unclear). That was only an agreement with one tribe, maybe even just part of that one tribe, anyway. No one wants “blood and soil” identity politics. We won’t kick you out, we’re not like that, but maybe ask yourself why no one likes you.
This conversation was very insightful about why when I questioned my former church family reacted so violently to my concerns. I was ejected from their circle and called a Marxist. Not only their utter certainty, but unwillingness to even discuss the issue with me left me baffled. The name calling was cruel. I left and went solo for four years, recently finding a much more balanced church group, and am slowly regaining confidence that there are reasonable believers out there. The Holy Post has been a life life during this time. God bless you all for doing what you do so well. I am eternally grateful.
Ditto! Except for the last part about finding a new church...still looking but I have visited one a few times that does specifically lay out points where differences are accepted and discussion is welcome. I have yet to try that out!
@hapennysparrow. I find myself in fundamentalist churches very sparingly, but I have encountered such such ferocity from time to time. What gets to me, however, is how French’s nervous metaphor of The Simpsons’ “Mr. Burns” seems strangely apt. This group, this movement, whatever it might be called (Vischer, Jethani, French, Beth and Russell Moore, etc.) seems just as excessive in their dogmatic certitude, just as anti-intellectual, just as politically partisan, and just as ferocious as full-blown fundamentalists. They go scorched earth on Christian Nationalists and Trump and science skepticism and the like, to the point of teaming up with Rob Reiner (talk about gobsmackingly dumb!)
I’m left of center, both in terms of my Evangelicalism (where I am about as far left as you can get without losing the designation) and my politics. But I find these people (whom I should like) about as off-putting as it is possible to be. Quite honestly, I’d rather deal with overly pugnacious fundamentalists any day!
The pastor of the church (UCC) where I first worked as organist/choirmaster right after having my first child, from 1972-1977, said many wise things. Related to this, he told me, "There are two basic kinds of people in the world: not Republicans and Democrats , not Liberals and Conservatives, but rather CLOSED MINDED PEOPLE OR OPEN MINDED PEOPLE." IT'S SO MUCH EASIER, IN A COMPLICATED WORLD, TO BECOME CLOSED MINDED AND NOT LOOK FOR NUANCE OR DIVERSITY. IT'S SO MUCH EASIER TO LIVE ACCORDING TO STRICT RULES, RATHER THAN "THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF SITUATION ETHICS."
David: I am the husband of a cancer survivor. I want you to know that you have a community also. We know just how painful it is when someone you love has to go through this.
I watched the video hoping to learn more about what fundamentalism is (and I did), but in the end the thing that struck me the most was the need for us all to see our lives in terms of the fruits of the spirit that we manifest.
I am the wife of a cancer survivor---so far! It was the hardest (so far) 15 months of our lives, but we are stronger. I don't wish it on anyone, but God will be there! And yes-the community of cancer care-givers is amazing.
I went through the same diagnosis with my wife 9 years ago this last thanksgiving. My wife struggled with depression when she finished chemotherapy because she missed her circle of sufferers. The community is so supportive. She struggles today with the side effects of chemo, but she is extremely grateful for life.
I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist and my pastor growing up would say all the time “You can be sincere but sincerely wrong” and it was always used to point out how everyone else was wrong and we were right.
This episode is spot on.
Well it's true you can be sincerely wrong
This was such a great conversation, and rather convicting, since I recognize a susceptibility to certainty in my own beliefs. Thanks Skye and David! I’ll be praying for Nancy French.
I think the suggestion that we can’t be certain of our beliefs is also incorrect, because what really matters is what we do with them… or how we subjugate other beliefs to accommodate those we deem more important or more crucial. So we may have a belief that murder is wrong, but at some point we subjugate that to this belief that sinners “out there” are a danger to us. so then we justify either mistreating or going so far as to take the life of someone who we deemed to be a danger to ourselves, simply because of the sin (in our personal or congregational view) that they have in their life. That is where the danger comes in. It teaches us to hate people who are caught in a different sin pattern than we might personally indulge.
But it is self-defeating to never be certain of what you believe. It’s the essence of postmodernism, and it can’t be sustained either.
@@paulacoyle5685it is necessary and healthy to not be certain of what you believe.
We know only in part, as Paul puts it in the famous passage of his letter to the Corinthians. Any scientist worthy of the name can give a long list of how their field was wrong, and learned, and what they currently hold but are not confident about.
Like all things, certainty has what Aristotle called a golden mean - not enough and too much are both a problem.
@@paulacoyle5685As was addressed in the video, what is meant by “lack of absolute certainty” is an openness to being wrong about what we think we know, and a recognition that there are limits to what we can know. It does not mean walking around in a perpetual quandary, believing that no information is reliable. Is it self-defeating to remain curious, to anticipate new developments and to seek diverse perspectives? I don’t think it is.
I needed this so much today as I deal with the painful scars in my life from some Christian fundamentalism themes (aka gothardism) and the shadows it cast on my upbringing. Thank you for explaining this so well and how fundamentalism can take hold in many places! Also, I have 2 aunts who had triple negative breast cancer and have been cancer free for a few years now. There is hope! 🙏
After my first two decades of life on the Canadian prairies, and then three decades in South America, I feel like I am still trying to find my footing in my wife's birth state of California. Fifteen years in journalism and 25 years in the pastoral world often leaves me with more questions than answers when it comes to life in the US-of-A. It didn't help to have been air-dropped into a place like LA County on the eve of Covid, along with extreme racial and political convulsions that followed soon after.
I am a learnaholic and a bookaholic, and I found this conversation as helpful and enlightening as anything I have heard-especially from a sociological and anthropological perspective.
"And There Was Light: Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle" on Skye's bookshelf is a great read.
I grew up in the Church of Christ in northern Illinois, a far west suburb of Chicago. This analysis of that brotherhood is absolutely spot on. I tried to question the nature of what doctrine we had for decades, but eventually left when I realized nobody wanted to talk about it at all. Not even in small groups, where we were supposed to be free to question and discuss such issues. Instead, I got into verbal fist fights with fellow members who simply did not want to address such questions at all. Sad.
As someone who grew up in the churches of Christ in the 90s and 00s, I can confirm that David French's experience is still in place. (At least in my experience)
I'm in what would be called a 'progressive' Church of Christ; we have both acapella and instrumental music. A church in our area disfellowshipped us when we decided to add an instrumental service. More recently, our church decided to allow women full participation in leadership (with the exception of the eldership.) COVID hit a few months later. Between COVID, racial strife, and the 2020 election, we had a lot of people leave, some of whom were friends of mine, and I am still grieving their loss.
@alliematt1016 That sounds so familiar. Qanon and conspiracy theories have found a foothold. And the fundamentist belief structure (as described in the video) makes it easy to see how quick those theories take hold.
For 23 years I attended Christian churches/Churches of Christ (the conservative but instrumental branch of the Stone/Campbell movement). After moving to a small town, I joined a different church because of what was available there. My views have since changed yet I still felt that sense of being a traitor just yesterday when encountered by an old friend via facebook messenger about a particular tenet of that church’s stance on baptism. It’s hard to keep in contact with some old friends.
For 23 years I attended Christian churches/Churches of Christ (the conservative but instrumental branch of the Stone/Campbell movement). After moving to a small town, I joined a different church because of what was available there. My views have since changed yet I still felt that sense of being a traitor just yesterday when encountered by an old friend via facebook messenger about a particular tenet of that church’s stance on baptism. It’s hard to keep in contact with some old friends.
I needed to hear this today.
I'm confused by the idea that everyone would be asking themselves what the definition of marriage is for themselves. Just because you have multiple options available to you now doesn't mean you suddenly have changed who you are attracted to. I.e. 90%+ of the population of men are attracted women and they still can marry women. For the remainder of us it's less like more options have been added and more like a relief that I have options I can enjoy. To use Skye's Starbucks analogy it's a bit like having a dairy allergy and walking into a Starbucks today and being relieved that I have options for "milks" and I can enjoy my coffee like other people can and I'm not forced to drink it black or suffer allergic reaction like I would have 20 years ago when the only cream options were ones that would give me a headache and worse.
Now when oatmilk is on the menu I genuinely doubt that the majority of people even consider that an option, you have to already have a preexisting reason to not choose cow milk (could be allergy or an ethical reason) but someone is not going into Starbucks confused because they have "so many options for milk" because the majority of people still go "milk cones from cows, duh" your analogy falls apart when you think that all choices come down to preference, more choices help more people to live, just like how a choice for a braille menu helps blind people order normally when a majority of people don't even consider that "a choice'
Good point. He hates capitalism. That’s why he calls it consumer capitalism like that has some meaning. Is there a consumer socialism?
He used a weak analogy to try to disparage capitalism and it failed
@@robbower5489 you seem a little defensive about what is really simply an abstract way to describe economic activity. Furthermore, it's one that has many different manifestations, including some that have been dominated by greed and corruption. The word capitalism means different things to different people. That is why he qualified it with the word consumer.
Thanks I understood what they were trying to say but I immediately thought they were leaving something out. You hit the nail on the head😊
The first few minutes is funny to me, because as an atheist I still like to listen to what christians say today to keep well rounded. I like to listen to The Holy Post because they have meaningful discussions on religion and the practices of the church today. Am I a fundamentalist atheist? I would argue Atheism has no dogma, so there can't be a fundamentalist position. Atheism just rejects the claim that any god exists, it doesn't tell people how to live or how to think. It's just a rejection of a god claim. I just like to be a good person, and I think that should be universal among all people no matter what religion or non religion you are, and I can tell the hosts and contributors at THP are good people.
I think fundamentalist atheism would be more or less those who can't engage peacefully with theists and insist religion in all forms is inherently evil with no positive attributes. Less common than fundamentalist Christianity, but certainly out there.
I appreciate that you take the time to listen to alternative dialogue. Of course as a Christian it is my hope that you are stirred by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as your Savior. It never hurts to try something "cooler" 😊 and even everlasting. Peace and love to you.
@MaryM-pp9xu Well, who says that accepting jesus as my savior is "cooler"? I had a friend of 30 years that got "born again" tell me that I have no meaning in my life. That's not "cool", that's actually very harmful. If having the spirit stir in me compels me to say to other long term friends the same as he did, then no thank you. Every person has meaning in their life. My wife has meaning to me and vice versa, bringing people the joy of art has meaning. Doing what makes me happy has meaning, that includes NOT telling other people they don't have meaning. Being an atheist is no cooler than being a christian, no cooler than being a buddhist or satanist or scientologist. For that reason, I'm never going to "hope" you lose your faith because that's what gives you joy and YOU meaning. I don't "hope" you become anything else than what you are, unless you are hurting others. If you are hurting others because of what you believe, then you should probably re-examine your beliefs.
@@itkirk
You’re not an atheist.
They do not exist.
I think you're playing with semantics a little. Atheism by its dictionary definition and etymology has no dogma, but atheism _as a cultural movement_ absolutely does. The atheist can say, echoing the Protestant, that "we have no pope." But that doesn't mean we don't have factions, thought leaders, heretics, and, yes, fundamentalist subcultures. Mostly I'm talking about humanism here, but the Venn diagram between humanists and atheists is such that I think the distinction, in the West at least, is almost academic. So, if you like, think about the question of whether you're a fundamentalist atheist humanist. It's not a definitionally incoherent question.
Or, to put it another way, it's fair to say that atheism as a concept has nothing to say about prominent Internet atheists Rebecca Watson and Dr. Phil "thunderf00t" Mason, but you absolutely _cannot_ deny that they have collected extremely loyal, mutually antagonistic followings. They are not messianic figures, but they're not _not_ messianic figures.
Dear David, dear Skye ~ It wasn't until my best friend from childhood and I agreed to listen to each other WITHOUT INTERRUPTING, about 15 years ago, that I understood there was an actual reason BEYOND THE SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN for being "pro-life." While my faith tells me, and always has, that "with the breath comes life," Diane convinced me that she, and many others BELIEVED ABORTION TO BE MURDER OF A LITTLE BABY, AT ANY POINT AFTER CONCEPTION. Once I understood her sincerity, I knew two things. 1. We would NEVER AGREE. 2. I had to respect how deeply she believed her belief, and take her seriously. ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, MANY HAVE NOT HAD THE CHANCE TO LISTEN TO SOMEONE THEY LOVE AS I DID. WOMEN MAY FEEL THAT ANTI-ABORTIONISTS ARE JUST AFTER THEIR LIVES AND FREEDOM--AND PERSONHOOD.
I’m not sure how you’ve missed that- it’s exactly what the entire pro-life camp has been saying for about 40 years.
Unfortunately it has also been packaged in judgment toward single mothers, refusal to offer care for people struggling, etc., etc. The failure of the pro life camp has been a refusal to provide for the care of babies and mothers pre and post-partum.
But the message that it’s a human being at conception and killing it is murder has been a consistent message for at least 40 years. I have never in my life heard a pro-life person argue for banning abortion because they want to “subjugate women.” That’s the perennial accusation but it’s categorically false.
Many people have sought to subjugate women in many ways for many reasons. That’s not one of them.
Praying for your family David Husband of a cancer survivor. Grew up RC now a member of the CC/COC instrumental so I see the fundemental divide on a personal level. I think certainty in Faith is essential but I love the classical Restorationist movement. People like Alexander Campbel and David Lipscomb is why I am Christian still today.
I'm 66 and I don't know anything. But I do believe that there is an actual truth. That there is a correct interpretation of scripture. And that there is a plumb fundamentalism. And that it is worth the trouble to find it.
I've always believed that if a person has to resort to name calling or threats to defend their position (without what the Bible refers to as "gentleness and respect") then they've already lost the debate
I consider myself a fundamentalist. Love the stranger. Take care of the poor. Do the things that make for peace and the building up of one another. It's very fundamental. ☮☮🕊🕊☯☯🙏🙏4 softening the hearts of the aggressors and relieving the suffering of victims.
SOOO many words have been hijacked & redefined to mean something negative lately 😒.
@@Anabee3 Thanks for the reply. Let's put the FUN back in fundamental. 😎😎
Ok but that isn’t what was meant by “fundamentalist” when the term began to be used in the 19th century and it isn’t what it means now.
Fundamentalism as a movement began as an opposition to modernism and has no direct connection to any of the things you listed. Fundamentalism is primarily based on what you *oppose,* rather than on what you do.
@@76JStucki Thanks for the reply. Yup. "Fundamentalists" have high-jacked the term. To quote the caterpillar, "When I choose a word to mean, the word means what I choose it to mean." Let's put the fun back in FUNdamentalism. 🎉🎉😊😊😎😎
Fascinating point about Galen's excessive choices and decisions humans are now facing.
Thank you, David French! Thank you that FINALLY at the very end (for 5 min, starting at 1:03 min) we get the true perspective that this pattern of dangerous fundamentalism has existed throughout the historical church & will always until Christ returns & redeems & glorifies His good world.
What would happen if the THP proportions were slightly switched to MORE minutes on the Goodness, Sovereignty, Justice, Mercy, Patience & unchanging Love of our Heavenly Father - and take time to encourage people MORE in our real hope found only in Christ, rather than so much emphasis on the scoffing/critical, self-centered focus on your/our evangelical group?
Please consider giving people MORE⏱️ time on TRUTH & HOPE in the LORD! This gets discouraging after listening for the past 4 years; yet I am SO GRATEFUL for these last 5 min of your conversation!
Interesting topic. Although some may find confusing your definition of "fundamentalism" vs. the historic movement based on the series of articles "The Fundamentals" which stood for essentials of the faith like the Virgin Birth, the Deity of Christ, etc. in the wake of "higher criticism" and the liberal/modernist movement in much of American Protestantism. This was followed by Evangelicalism which held many of the same beliefs but with a different tone, at least originally.
There is overlap, of course, but for those who proudly wear the label "Fundamentalist" it is important to realize that it didn't begin as a pejorative or an attitude, but as a movement reaffirming historic Christian beliefs.
I remember news reporters using "fundamentalism" in the way you describe circa 1980 - they'd talk about the antics of some backwards "Fundamentalist" preacher; then the next story would be about Islamic Fundamentalism. I'd be annoyed, because I saw "the Fundamentals" as a set of beliefs, not as an attitude. But I realize now there is a tendency for any group to become "fundamentalist" along your definition.
This discussion was really good. I grew up in the Pentecostal church and it didn’t get more fundamentalist than that.
Can there be a series about Just War theory eventually and it’s influence today? I really do feel like some people disagree with some of the points you guys make because there’s a difference in when taking up arms is actually justified to begin with. And I say that as someone who agrees with you all
Suggesting that fundamentalism is a response to a broad society full of options and freedom of thought may be true but it doesn't mean that kind of society is any worse than a society that limits thought and freedoms so people don't question what might be wrong or only do right based on prescription and not sincere decisions.
1 Peter 3 tells us to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that we have. Not only does this mean we should engage with the question but be prepared to be part of an "evil" society that questions us, maybe even reviles us, yet we should be gentle in our response.
We are taught that fundamentalism is the wrong response to society, not that we must fervently control society to prevent being questioned.
As usual great explainer. I had forgotten about Bill G. I remember all these men being so proud going to this seminar then naively convinced they were transformed in to different fathers and husbands.. well meaning and looking for answers. Wonderful describing psychology vs theology- and the threesome charcteristics- 100% certain, ferocious/pious, & solidarity potentiating when they get together. It IS so hard to not think they are stupid or so misled.
Haven't watched yet: but is fundamentalism growing? I was under the impression that American Christianity as a whole is shrinking, but just less quickly from the from the fundamentalists, which is what makes them a higher percentage.
If you’ve listened by now you’ll already know this, but they talked fundamentalism as it relates to belief in general, including secular ideologies.
I agree, the Pew Research group who have followed religious belief and practice in the USA for many decades say that as a share of the whole US population Christianity is shrinking so the overall number of Christians is smaller than it was for example in the 1970’s.
However Pew does show that fundamentalist evangelical Pentecostalist style Christianity is growing in certain sectors of the US population especially among Hispanics/Latino’s and at the expense of Roman Catholicism.
Overall though America is becoming more secular and in that definition I include those whose ‘faith’ is just a social label. They are for example cultural Christians or cultural Jews.
"GOODNESS IS STRONGER THAN EVIL. LOVE IS STRONGER THAN HATE. LIGHT IS STRONGER THAN DARKNESS. LIFE IS STRONGER THAN DEATH. VICTORY IS OURS THROUGH HIM WHO LOVES US." ~ Desmond Tutu
Good morning from the drizzly SF Bay Area. Prayers for your wife's journey to recovery. I grew up in an evangelical family, my father was a Presbyterian minister/Navy chaplain/family counsellor, my grandfather was a Free Methodist minister/missionary, and on and on with the family. I knew from a very young age that the church had precious little to do with Jesus' teachings, so I went on a quest to find him outside the dictates of the Bible and its churches. You guys have so much excellent insight and commitment to following truth, I love listening to you, but are still stuck in the prophetic ancient patriarchal teachings of polygamist tribalism. It's just plain old fashioned and out of date with evolved spiritual understandings. Same with fundamentalist atheism. When I hear those guys they sound so old fashioned, their arguments are like jello, wibbly wobbly and see through.
Jesus' teachings are all about living and growing, evolving into a spiritually enlightened child of God. We are a worldwide family of God and must learn how to stop squabbling about who holds the truth. We have to stop killing each other, it's horrible what we have done and are doing in the name of God, Allah, Jesus, Mohammed, and any other thing we fight over. In the end, we all have bits and bobs and the whole picture will emerge when all the puzzle pieces are fitted together. I cannot imagine the grief Jesus must feel watching these wars of words and deeds.
If a person has no certainty, then what’s the point of religion?
Or perhaps I’m missing the point
There are plenty of right wing colleges that are just as wedded to a fundamentalist view, but for the right, as they are talking about the left here.
The only reason places like Harvard are sticking out is that they are directly challenging the “fundamentalism” (as defined in the conversation) of American society generally.
That said, there are some “forbidden” topics in liberalism that result in blind spots and that, as a liberal, I know I need to be less… fundamentalist about.
There’s a real hazard here in identifying fundamentalism (as defined) as “something other people do.”
The Trumpist fundamentalism on the Right is now routine. They cannot be reached thru any avenue, including even very basic theology like Love Your Neighbor. As a Lefty myself, I'm very disappointed to find empty fundamentalism in the Left. That's not what progressive values are about. Whataboutism isn't a good response. Progressives should be open and transparent about examining our positions.
Needless to say, I've been disappointed far too often and it leaves me without hope for the future. The number of adults in the room is vanishingly small.
Thanks guys! I love you two together. Actually don’t listen to anyone else on UA-cam for faith conversation. I worry that fundamentalism will only get worse and what the Christian faith will look like in the future. I have a friend that is fundamentalist and she is quick to point to select scripture to defend her stance. I’m not good at being put on the spot or debate. Can you help me or give me direction on how to defend myself?
O I hope our children are being raised to have the bandwidth to deal gracefully and wisely with diverse solutions, with diverse religions, with even diverse holiday tradition, so that they can make decisions on their own without feeling "overwhelmed by the giant menu."
This was interesting.
Very well laid out, and crucial, discussion from an academic standpoint.
Unfortunately, there are real people who are moment by moment being added to the causality lists outside the academic halls.
While it may be true that the church will self correct over time, how do we prevent, or heal, all the inevitable casualties... which should be our focus?
Thankfully, as you say, God is the God of surprises ...
Yes. It's always slayed me the "we'll get there in time and Jesus will make everything right" while the body count of victims piles up. Too many Christians are so self-focused they don't care about the people being hurt and have such a lax attitude about change... but they sure do have a sense of "urgency" whenever it affects them.
I'm over halfway through and I'm honestly surprised that this discussion hasn't used the words "dogmatic" or "dogmas"
A bit like describing the civil war without mentioning slavery…
I sympathize with the choice paralysis and why that makes fundamentalism so appealing. When nietzsche made his famous "God is dead" remark he wasn't speaking literally. He was lamenting the dissappearance of a shared source of meaning and a whole form of human life around it. So when I see more fundamentalist sects of Christianity with traditionalist aesthetics, to me they are mourning that dead god.
As an outsider, it's wild to hear David and Skye give such a sharp description of (fundamentalist) religion!
I'm curious how they differentiate normal christian practice from those three characteristics (faith, "ferocity", and solidarity) - there seems to be a lot of overlap!
Last time the topic came up, someone commented that based on their definitions, a lot of the apostles such as Peter or Paul would be Fundamentalists
Wow David!! Apparently we shouldn’t believe with absolute certainty what we absolutely believe and call absolute truth. I guess I’ll believe halfway? Maybe then I’ll get a job as a NY times “opinion” propagandist and be lauded as a “true conservative”
David French let the truth slip out at the end - “we spend our time condemning…uh not condemning but critiquing fundamentalism”.
Sorry but David French said the correct word the first time.
You think? I thought they handled the topic with diplomacy.
His own slip of the tongue condemned him when he admitted he “condemned” fundamentalists
Is it wrong yo want to have certainty when all around us i confusion ? In the last days confusion is what the angel is calling us out?
How about "Christ will set you free" from the demands of men.
Better yet, Christ will set you free from the demands of self
There's SOOO many words, nowadays, that dont mean what they seem to mean, or were hijacked & redefined.
The English language is like that.
Amusing, artificial, and awful.
Something to ponder as we don our gay apparel for the new year.
@@Justanotherconsumer Good point. My 4th grade teacher (1975) told us a of a time she was a child at church (I'm guessing 1930's). Anyway, An elderly visitor walked in & exclaimed, "This is just AWFUL!"
(My teacher, as a young child, was very confused).
David French's response that some people agreed with him until they found out he was Pro-Life, reminds me of the reaction Ted Nugent often gets when they love his guitar playing until they find out he's a Conservative---then all of a sudden his guitar playing is crap. Now that's what I consider the "closed-mindedness" of the Left
Works both ways. People think actors are brilliant and talented until they find out they are vocally liberal. That's considered the closed-mindedness of the right. So what's your point?
@@impalaman9707 Is it though? Are you sure you don't think liberals are worse? Also, they're not "my guys."
Nugent’s talent is neither here nor there to me, as I never liked his music, but, he is hardly a model “Conservative.” He has made vile statements that turn the stomachs of many Conservatives, and much of what he stands for is far outside their values. There’s reason enough for anyone- liberal or conservative- to disavow the man, never mind his guitar-playing.
The critical question is not whether you are ‘pro-life’ in terms of abortion but rather if you are ‘pro-choice’ or not.
I am anti-abortion personally but I am pro-choice (at least up to 15 weeks in an otherwise normal pregnancy) and I strongly believe that it’s the free will choice of the pregnant woman herself what she decides.
Why do you believe what you believe if you don’t believe it absolutely? What the heck’s the point?
You just run around Constantly half doubting yourself? What a terrible way to live.
I am always working with the best evidence-based knowledge I have right now. I try to stay open to new evidence, new ideas, new information. It is not "half doubting," it's being open to new information. It's how you grow. It's how you function as a lifelong learner.
Fundamentalism, at least in part, is based on a desire to cease changing in a chaotic world in which everything is always changing.
A simple definition of fundamentalism- the belief itself is “God”.
SKYE JETHANI. Haha. Dude sounds like he’s from Star Wars
If following the Bible is fundamentalism, wouldn't that mean everyone else isnt really following the Bible?
I love French fries. We should have them every day!
Jesus' suffering was not dying on the cross. As it says in Genesis, "you will strike his heel."
Jesus suffered for our sins as he laid out: I was hungry and you didn't feed me, thirsty and you didn't give me drink, etc. That's how he suffered for our sins. He suffered for 33 years.
If you want to be persecuted, tell the church members they need to do more to support the poor. They'll call you a "socialist" or a "communist." When Jesus talked about persecution from "the world" he talked about the prophets who were killed by Jews, not by Gentiles. Jesus was killed by Jews, not by Gentiles. The "world" is in the pews persecuting the sheep.
42:40>>???? NOOOO...Its GOD who told us what marriage is. We cant put ALL this on fundamentalists.
Native Americans are free from sea to shining sea. If Israel can't exist in peace with a diverse population, that is an indictment of Israel. Herod was also a psychopath.
This perspective explains the MAGA movement
It’s a real shame you need to foster supernatural beliefs in order to help others.
Love the show. Don't buy this "fundamentalism is how you believe not what." I doubt Sky would consider himself a Fundamentalist, but if you asked him whether or not Jesus was God I think he's going to be pretty certain and he's going to be willing to draw some pretty Stark boundaries around the Christian Community and that particular belief. Fundamentalists just have more beliefs of this form. They have more beliefs that are functionally litmus tests to maintain a community like that you need lots of personal in public control. Individuals need to cultivate a strong sense of guilt to help them maintain Community standards and leaders need to exert lots of control and project Authority 2 in forest and help inculcate the particular forms of guilt that the community needs. There's obviously a chicken or egg problem when it comes to what personalities appear in those communities though. I also think sky is on to something with this foreground and background beliefs thing, but I think capitalism is just a vehicle for putting people into contact with other ways of life, new technologies in the science that undergirds them, etcetera.
building a bigger fucking wall! america for americans
Great!
When are you leaving?
-Indians
@@Justanotherconsumer i would but they do not want me back i asked my cousin in amsterdam and thye say they are full up and americans talk to much and smell like gunpowder your stuck with me andbesides we were here first we bought the whole fucking fro the red man for 24$ worht of beads
@@MrBillcaleexcept we weren’t here first, and the “purchase” was based on a completely different understanding of the land (a court would likely say the contract was unenforceable because it was unclear).
That was only an agreement with one tribe, maybe even just part of that one tribe, anyway.
No one wants “blood and soil” identity politics. We won’t kick you out, we’re not like that, but maybe ask yourself why no one likes you.
@@MrBillcalewhat's an American? Why would a wall help with illegal immigration?
Not an idea in alignment with the charactor of God, as shown by the Bible.