Bee SAFE Hive Beetle Poison! Exciting Innovation!

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  • Опубліковано 25 гру 2024

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  • @kamonreynolds
    @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +30

    Shbtrap.com - The current Bye Bye Beetle Bait is not what University of GA is working on. BELOW is a statement from UGA.
    The UGA Bee Lab and the beekeeping product company PowerB2B are partnering to test a bee-safe ‘attract and kill bait’ to be used in small hive beetle traps. In 2024 we have partnered to run a study comparing different insecticides put in as baits inside SHB traps. We hope that chlorantraniliprole, a new pesticide which the UGA Bee Lab has been working with, will be approved for use by EPA. This insecticide is a bee safe alternative to neonicotinoids in turf lawn management and is used as a honeybee safe insecticide during the almond bloom.
    The research is being led by Bee Lab Professor Dr. Lewis Bartlett and graduate student Ian Collins. Ian graduated with a Bachelor of Environmental Science from the UGA Department of Entomology in 2021 and then went on to work as a research technician at the UGA Bee Lab. In 2023 Ian became a PhD student at the bee lab, funded by Project Apis m. and the National Honey Board, and has been working on the use of chlorantraniliprole to control small hive beetles in supplemental pollen feeding as the focus of his research.

    • @julibottjen9047
      @julibottjen9047 5 місяців тому

      I wanted to learn some more about chlorantraniliprole and found this - npic.orst.edu/factsheets/chlorantraniliprole.html
      "Some researchers found that products with chlorantraniliprole should not harm beneficial predatory insects or bees when used according to the label. Chlorantraniliprole is low in toxicity to parasitic wasps.
      Other scientists have studied the effects of chlorantraniliprole on bees. They found that when honeybee larvae were fed doses of products containing chlorantraniliprole at low doses of 0.087-0.139 μg/chlorantraniliprole per larva per day, many of them died before becoming adult bees. Another group of scientists exposed bumblebees to chlorantraniliprole in a pollen and honey mixture. The mixture contained 0.615 mg/kg of chlorantraniliprole. The bumblebees ate the mixture for 30 days. They ate the same amount of pollen as control colonies that were not fed chlorantraniliprole. Colonies with queens showed no effects on reproduction or behavior. "

    • @Nick-yt2vf
      @Nick-yt2vf 3 місяці тому +2

      I bought this product and have two on the bottom board and one on top of the honey super, is it safe to harvest that honey?

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  3 місяці тому +1

      @@Nick-yt2vf absolutely

    • @Nick-yt2vf
      @Nick-yt2vf 3 місяці тому +2

      @@kamonreynolds thanks for the fast reply

  • @Shbtrap
    @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому +4

    Thanks for the video Kamon!
    We appreciate the recognition and are confident that our traps and bait will control the SHBs, allowing bee hives to thrive!

  • @tonywestsbees6042
    @tonywestsbees6042 5 місяців тому +8

    I'm glad the beetles are being addressed more proactively. I'm looking forward to trying this.

  • @joer5627
    @joer5627 5 місяців тому +7

    Way to go Dr Bartlett and team!

  • @jerrywilson1775
    @jerrywilson1775 5 місяців тому +12

    Been baiting SHB for years. Equal parts of honey, pollen powder and DE into a beetle barn or beetle blaster. Also in middle Tennessee.

  • @cartert8038
    @cartert8038 4 місяці тому +2

    These traps are great. I'm using them under the inner cover and in the trays under my Apimaye bottom boards designed for wooden boxes. Traps are easy to open and refill with bait, and they are virtually indestructable. I believe the bait currently used is boric acid mixed with pollen patty, but I'm not sure.

  • @richardnoel3141
    @richardnoel3141 5 місяців тому +6

    Evil chuckle!! 🤣🤣👍 love it!!

  • @russellaymond312
    @russellaymond312 5 місяців тому +3

    Thank you for information, great news

  • @jaysnyder7940
    @jaysnyder7940 5 місяців тому +2

    Great to see a new product that works

  • @wadebarnes6720
    @wadebarnes6720 5 місяців тому +2

    I have made mine for years and it works great

  • @brianbennett4374
    @brianbennett4374 5 місяців тому +3

    I order it. Thank you I just started getting hive Beatles uggg. 😊

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому

      Thank you for your order!

  • @thilltony3362
    @thilltony3362 5 місяців тому +2

    Finally having a commercial product to control beetles is great!
    But Hive Beetle Murder Sauce is incredibly effective and the bees won't touch it or be harmed by it. I'm in a hot part of VA where hive beetles run rampant, and it's been a 100% success. Murder sauce is shortening with some DE and a few drops of Eucalyptus oil mixed in. Looks just like that stuff, but it's super cheap to make. You put little smears in the corners where the bees tend to herd the beetles. Bees won't touch it, and you will have ZERO, and I mean ZERO beetles in all of your hives after a little while. Putting them into those little covers you show isn't a bad idea either, but I never have with zero negative effects.
    Good to see you again, Kamon!

    • @HeatherSchroeder-i2j
      @HeatherSchroeder-i2j 4 місяці тому +1

      Hi there, would you mind giving us a basic measure equivalent or ratios to each ingredient? I really like this idea!

    • @thilltony3362
      @thilltony3362 4 місяці тому

      @@HeatherSchroeder-i2j It really doesn't have to be exact, but here is the instructional video. Go straight to the mixing instructions, I think around minute 9. It absolutely works 100%

    • @HeatherSchroeder-i2j
      @HeatherSchroeder-i2j 4 місяці тому

      @@thilltony3362 thank you for your response!

  • @DavidLaFerney
    @DavidLaFerney 5 місяців тому +1

    I just ordered some - thanks for the suggestion.

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому +1

      Thank you for your order!

  • @ZelmaBees
    @ZelmaBees 5 місяців тому +1

    I received my shipment today. I've had a real struggle this year with beetles and I'm hoping this a real alternative to the swiffer sheets, especially after learning from Fred Dunn how the bees actually ingest some of the fibers. Thank you UGA and Kamon!

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому

      Thank you for your order!

  • @lgalardi
    @lgalardi 5 місяців тому

    Got mine ordered! I've never really had an SHB problem until this year. We've had excessive amounts of rain. Even my strong hives are seeing more Hive beetles than normal. This video was very timely.

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому +1

      Thank you for your order!

  • @curtis3757
    @curtis3757 5 місяців тому +2

    Great info about the Beatles. I hope I get to try this out because they are bad where I live.

  • @framcesmoore
    @framcesmoore 5 місяців тому +2

    I got mine yesterday and started putting them in my hives today. Hope it works i got over $200 worth. Thanks for sharing this on your live chat. Have a great day

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому +1

      Thank you for your purchase!

  • @eddybarker5072
    @eddybarker5072 5 місяців тому +3

    Just ordered some to try out Kamon. TY!

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому

      Thank you for your order!

  • @karlfowler3742
    @karlfowler3742 5 місяців тому +1

    This is great news. I found lots of beetles trapped on my swiffer sheets yesterday and wished there was more I could do. The Oil traps had a few, but the Swiffer sheets caught a lot of them.

    • @mse1333
      @mse1333 5 місяців тому

      According to Fred Dunn, as the bees try to shred the polymer in swiffer sheets, this polymer is turning up in bee gut, comb wax and honey. Further studies found the polymer in plastic hive boxes is NOT showing up in gut, wax, and honey.

  • @jamesowens2781
    @jamesowens2781 5 місяців тому +3

    You are the man thank you

  • @SteveJones-rv1nm
    @SteveJones-rv1nm 5 місяців тому +2

    Among, thanks for great information. I assume you will keep us informed about the progress and when it will be available to us beekeepers.

    • @BeekeepingForNewbees
      @BeekeepingForNewbees 5 місяців тому +1

      @stevejones-rv1nm They are available right now. Just purchased some to try in my apiary. Thanks Kamon!

    • @jamesowens2781
      @jamesowens2781 5 місяців тому +1

      @@BeekeepingForNewbeesI did as well trying some out

  • @Manuherikiabeekeeping
    @Manuherikiabeekeeping 5 місяців тому +1

    Extra points for the under pottle zap. 😂

  • @ray37876
    @ray37876 5 місяців тому +2

    Ordered was wondering when he was going to get on the market. Now to give it a go.

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому

      Thank you for your order!

  • @rickwade959
    @rickwade959 5 місяців тому

    This will work for most hives but I have one that attracts beetles in plague numbers. I use a small cordless vacuum on my worst hive and have been catching over 100+ beetles per DAY in that one hive for the last month. I caught 624 beetles in this hive 4 days ago, and the numbers have been cut in half each day since. I tried Beetle Barns with a mixture of Crisco and Boric Acid but didn’t see any dead beetles using those.

  • @BUDsBs
    @BUDsBs 4 місяці тому +1

    Awesome. Do you have any advise on where to buy sugar in bulk kamon? Thanks.

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  4 місяці тому +1

      I drive and buy mine from Mann lake in the form of pro sweet that is the cheapest I have found for feeding my bees

  • @SIBEEMAN
    @SIBEEMAN 5 місяців тому

    Hi Kamon, it seems like we’ve all tried different methods to relieve the stress from SHB without much success. I am here in New York and have to deal with it all the time. Grub X swiffer sheets, beetle blasters, DE you name it and I’ve tried it. The large colonies can tolerate them much better, but I have had slime outs. I really hope that there is a better solution and I’m looking forward to trying this.!

  • @T0tenkampf
    @T0tenkampf 5 місяців тому

    Reminds me of the CD case traps that I started out using but a much better size. I am sure the bait is better than the old lard and boric acid mixture too. I have Beetle Blaster Baseboards that I cycle around through troubled hives, they are excellent but not cheap. I also love the Guardian excluders.

  • @arectechafterwork9772
    @arectechafterwork9772 5 місяців тому +1

    Thanks for the info! Looks real promising and I do hope it works. Don't know if I'd use the hive tool to get the poison though.

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому

      I am sure it is best to use another tool specifically for that.

  • @joef1990
    @joef1990 5 місяців тому

    Nice product. I use Scott's Grub Ex and sprinkle it liberally around my hives a few times a season. It seems to cut the small beetle life cycle to only one cycle as the larvae go down in the dirt and die off before becoming adults.

    • @jonshannon3394
      @jonshannon3394 5 місяців тому

      I've used grubex around the hive too. It uses the same active ingredient that UGA is researching for a bee-safe/shb deadly pollen patty. Lead researcher gave a talk today about and asserted that the grubex must be eaten to be effective and that SHB larvae only eat while in the hive and therefore grubex isn't effective for them. He said nematodes and guard star are the effective ground treatments. Going to do a little more reading before I stop using it, but thought I'd pass it along.

  • @theunlikelybeek
    @theunlikelybeek 5 місяців тому

    My old apiary was in the shade most of day, but I still didn't have much of a problem with SHB's, I suppose I was lucky. In my current apiary the hives are out in the open under full sun all day, and I haven't seen a single beetle, (Knock on wood) but this does look like a promising solution. Thanks for the video, Kamon!

    • @R_Brickner
      @R_Brickner 5 місяців тому +2

      Yes the full sun is a pretty good cure all for SHB, but here in Tennessee, the full sun is a killer for beekeepers trying to inspect hives in the summer. DB

    • @theunlikelybeek
      @theunlikelybeek 5 місяців тому +2

      @@R_Brickner The same here in southern Pennsylvania. I lose weight on every inspection, especially in July & August

  • @realeyesrealizerealies
    @realeyesrealizerealies 5 місяців тому

    Thanks for sharing. I'm doing this exact thing with china made traps that look identical to that one and I used a DIY "murder sauce" that I saw on youtube. Thanks Kamon! Definitely going to look for these in the future. Better to be made in the USA for sure

  • @rking5714
    @rking5714 5 місяців тому +1

    I am familiar with Dr. Bartlett's research into the chlorantraniliprole (it can still be purchased as a termite control to use as a drench). However, the website given doesn't mention that in their SHBtrap product. They only list boric acid. So does this product contain the chlorantraniliprole?

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +3

      Like I said in the beginning this is not the final product that is being worked on from UGA. This is just the starting point on a journey to what the UGA believe is a very successful beetle lure and eliminator. The current product primarily has boric acid

  • @aaronparis4714
    @aaronparis4714 5 місяців тому +1

    I’m glade you found some things to fight them I’m glade they have not made
    It to Nova Scotia yet

  • @royalwulff1
    @royalwulff1 4 місяці тому

    Kamon, I noticed that the traps have a larger footprint on one side, does it matter what side faces down? If you put the small side down the bees may not can get to it to glue holes shut! Does this make since? or am i thinking to much lol. Thanks

  • @MegilUrgand
    @MegilUrgand 3 місяці тому

    Where can I purchase this SHB product?

  • @WildwoodsBeekeeping
    @WildwoodsBeekeeping 5 місяців тому

    First!! Hey kamon, I will definitely look into that Beetle Poison. I have used beetle barns before, and have some I believe. but don’t have any Bait for it. Thanks for making this video Kamon!! Hope you are having a good 4th of July weekend!! Have a great day 😁👍😎🤙

  • @BohemiaBees
    @BohemiaBees 5 місяців тому +1

    Should we wash our hive tool after using it for this substance or would in not harm them if it transfers to places outside that trap?

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +1

      Probably best but the first generation is boric acid. Not too concerned

    • @Shbtrap
      @Shbtrap 5 місяців тому +2

      Our bait will not harm your bees if the bait is placed outside the traps! The bait is only potent to SHB after full ingestion.

  • @serogashumeyko1526
    @serogashumeyko1526 2 місяці тому

    I got some of this stuff from their website put it in my hives and after that it seams like there is even more beatles in my hives then there was. They go in and out from that plastic thing and eating it well but not dying. I kept it for about month and had bad results, so it didnt work for me for some reason.

  • @tvideo1189
    @tvideo1189 5 місяців тому +1

    Where are the links?????

  • @apatriot1762
    @apatriot1762 5 місяців тому +1

    I use seven dust around my hives here in Florida, little to no beetles

    • @meccc7
      @meccc7 5 місяців тому

      This doesn't hurt bees?

    • @apatriot1762
      @apatriot1762 5 місяців тому

      @@meccc7 not at all, it’s meant for your garden vegetables

  • @kirbyharrissrigsby8795
    @kirbyharrissrigsby8795 5 місяців тому +1

    Where is the web site? Thanks

  • @Fred-ff6bv
    @Fred-ff6bv 5 місяців тому

    i ordered some but there are no instructions for storage. Do i keep it in the cabinet, refrigerator or freezer?
    .
    Edit. i called the number on the website and had to leave a message. i received a call back and was told to store it at or below 75F. i was told that it can be refrigerated or frozen.

  • @thomasluthi7543
    @thomasluthi7543 5 місяців тому +1

    Does it has to be placed within hives

  • @michaelhansen6481
    @michaelhansen6481 5 місяців тому

    👍

  • @mse1333
    @mse1333 5 місяців тому +1

    I see no link to the current product

    • @kathyhathaway8823
      @kathyhathaway8823 5 місяців тому +1

      Click on the comments it is the first one . Then click on it .

  • @riobarudo
    @riobarudo 5 місяців тому

    🐝👍❤

  • @wrfarms9741
    @wrfarms9741 5 місяців тому +1

    Kamon, Dick and I have been buying these traps by the case of 1,000 from the people who import them for over 10 years. It's been awhile since I have purchased them but the last order was about 35 cents a piece. They DO work..........however. The problem with them is that the bees chase the SHB's into the traps and keep them there & in short order propolize all of the entrances to the traps shut. Once this happens, the traps are useless until you remove the traps, empty them out and clean all of the propolis off of the trap. For a small number of hives this is reasonable but for large numbers a horribly laborious task. In Apimaye hives, the bees chase the SHB's down into the bottom drawer in very large numbers but the bees rarely if ever go down into the lower drawer. I have found that cheap non-chlorinated brake cleaner spray works great. Pull the lower drawer open and spray down the SHB's with the brake cleaner. It kills the SHB's and evaporates quickly, leaving no residue chemical or otherwise. Just don't get on or anywhere around where the bees frequent.

  • @DuckRiverHoney
    @DuckRiverHoney 5 місяців тому

    Am I wrong, or does the bait they’re selling contain boric acid? That’s what the site said. I was expecting chlorantraniliprole, as that’s what Dr. Bartlett is working on. If this is boric acid, I doubt it’s labeled for use in beehives??

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +1

      I said earlier in the video the UGA product isn't available yet. This company is working with them to help make it a possibility so in the mean time supporting this company will help get us to the point where we can have the UGA product. Currently they have a product with boric acid in it

    • @R_Brickner
      @R_Brickner 5 місяців тому

      A 5% boric acid sugar syrup solution is also an effective ant killer so it would probably kill bees if they could get to it. The trap keeps the bees out. I really like the wide windows as the Beetle Barn traps we have used for 10+ years had to be checked weekly to clean the propolis out of the openings. I had excellent SHB trapping using just one trap placed at the back end of the top super under the inner cover. Very easy access. The pollen sub approach is a good way to disperse it. Dick Brickner Columbia (TN) Beekeepers Association

    • @coincollector315
      @coincollector315 5 місяців тому +1

      I did some preliminary research on this after watching Kamon. Florida Dept of Agriculture has done some research on this product with the Boric Acid formulation. If you google it you can read the research papers on it. I also believe that there is a legal label issue but I ordered just a small 4 oz to see if I am correct. Based on some reading it’s basically the ingredients to make pollen patties mixed with 2% boric acid. This company says it will not harm bees if ingested. However, the research and my experience as a licensed pesticide applicator in NY says that’s not true. I follow your channel as well and enjoy your style so I figured I’d share what I found regarding this product.

    • @DuckRiverHoney
      @DuckRiverHoney 5 місяців тому

      @@coincollector315 I appreciate that!

  • @illumi-Nate
    @illumi-Nate 5 місяців тому +1

    Have u ever tried Peppermint oil????? Just curious if it's worth my time??

    • @rickwade959
      @rickwade959 5 місяців тому +2

      I sprayed my hives with peppermint oil and it did nothing to deter the beetles.

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому

      It does not work well at all. If you put it under the lid the beetles will just move to the bottom of the hive

  • @talbertreynolds
    @talbertreynolds 5 місяців тому

    Give us an update on the traps. I bought 20 but after a week I don’t see any Beatles in the traps?

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому

      They often don't die in the traps. They eat it run off and die elsewhere after a day or 2 and the bees toss em out.

  • @sunshineapriaries
    @sunshineapriaries 5 місяців тому

    So help me out here we use the Beatle barns and use combat gel bait for roaches. The bees never touch it and the Beatles never leave as there dying so what’s the difference?

    • @matthewtidwell357
      @matthewtidwell357 5 місяців тому

      So,, does the gel work well for you,

    • @sunshineapriaries
      @sunshineapriaries 5 місяців тому

      @@matthewtidwell357 absolutely

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому

      One is legal and one is not. One is safe for bees to eat and the other is not.
      I am not.conndeming anyone for using it but we need more options. Who knows if the illegal stuff will be useful in the future. Heaven forbid they get immune

    • @sunshineapriaries
      @sunshineapriaries 5 місяців тому

      @@kamonreynolds well explain how the bees eat it when they can’t get to it? Swifter sheets they catch the queens. People don’t realize that, but they must think only all the other days just get snagged on it but the queen she don’t she don’t get on it. lol oil traps are a big mess but had pretty good results with putting peppermint patty hard candies in the four corners on each deep.

  • @jonclemons1421
    @jonclemons1421 5 місяців тому +1

    A question you may want to ask the developers:
    If the beetles come in contact with the poison but don't die inside the trap, are the bees coming in contact with the poison when they push the dead beetles outside?

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +2

      The UGA from what I understand has researched this product very well and bees can eat it and not die. The design of these traps should prevent that from happening but on the off chance it happens bees are safe and so is our honey!

    • @jonclemons1421
      @jonclemons1421 5 місяців тому +1

      @@kamonreynolds thanks. I'm glad they looked at all the possibilities.

    • @jbnnm657
      @jbnnm657 5 місяців тому +2

      @@kamonreynolds I am friend with the owner of the company who makes these. Avram. This is correct.

    • @jamesbarron1202
      @jamesbarron1202 5 місяців тому +1

      @@jbnnm657how long will it last inside a hive until it dries up and needs to be replenished?

    • @jbnnm657
      @jbnnm657 5 місяців тому +3

      @@jamesbarron1202 I'll ask

  • @christopherhall2490
    @christopherhall2490 5 місяців тому +1

    Now to combat wax moths

  • @mikeluke3536
    @mikeluke3536 4 місяці тому +1

    What results are you seeing with these traps Kamon? Are you finding dead beetles in your traps similar to the pictures on their website? I bought and filled 20 traps for $60. I also used this bait to load 10 similar black beetle barns and 25+ of the reusable beetle traps designed for oil that hang between the frames. After over 2 weeks it doesn't look like the bait has been touched and I've only seen a couple of dead beetles in these traps while most of my hives are loaded with beetles. I'm sure the boric acid would kill them if they ate it, but they don't seem to be attracted to the bait. Maybe all the real pollen in the hives is much more enticing than the bait. Fortunately, I also placed multiple Swiffer sheets in the hives at the same time and those were so full of beetles in less than a week that I had to replace most of them.

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  4 місяці тому

      I just check some today with dead beetles in them. They aren't crushing the beetles but I am seeing smaller amounts

  • @beehivewithaview9760
    @beehivewithaview9760 5 місяців тому

    TBH, it's not the best marketing move to call this poison.

    • @wheelchairmd
      @wheelchairmd 5 місяців тому

      Don’t buy it then. I just did.

    • @beehivewithaview9760
      @beehivewithaview9760 5 місяців тому +1

      @@wheelchairmd You didn't address my point. Rat poison companies are savy enough to refer to their products as bait.

  • @FloryJohann
    @FloryJohann 5 місяців тому

    The bees will glue the those small slots shut in no time like the other similar trap making it ineffective.
    The university is not working on this trap.
    Itvis workin on a incrediens that is in Grub X that does not kill the bees but will kill hive beetles. They figured out that ub to specific percentage of using that ingrident that only a couple of bees died but a massive amount of hive beetles died when it was mixed in pollen patties.

  • @chrisgorman3537
    @chrisgorman3537 5 місяців тому

    Sorry to tell you this but I have been using the plastic traps and this type of bait for years, nothing new here😂

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +1

      I am well aware of the other products out there and the illegal substances used. To debate what should be or should not be illegal is complicated and is another topic entirely. Having a safe legal option is good for bees, the industry, and consumers and that is what we are promoting here.

    • @chrisgorman3537
      @chrisgorman3537 5 місяців тому

      @@kamonreynolds what’s the price like?

  • @aaronparis4714
    @aaronparis4714 5 місяців тому +2

    You need to shave soon bro 😅

  • @caven930
    @caven930 5 місяців тому +1

    You should grow a beard

  • @shevlin2650
    @shevlin2650 Місяць тому +1

    Kamon, Is this product going to be available at the NAHB Expo? And who will be supplying it? SML BEEs / SWVA

  • @stevesoutdoorworld4340
    @stevesoutdoorworld4340 5 місяців тому +3

    Too much money Bro for that product! Holy crap Bat Man & Robin! That company must think we BK have stolen money like Joe & Hunter! Amazon has cheap Beetle Barns and i am sure we can make a bait with ultra bee pollen sub -DE powder -& a bit of raw honey. Kamon we poor BK have got to start thinking outside of the bee box! 😁

    • @kamonreynolds
      @kamonreynolds  5 місяців тому +2

      I see your point, but if we want more advanced tools it takes money. Power B2B hasn't even sniffed a profit at this point and they have invested a good bit of money into a product that is going to be a massive pain to get to the market. I can see both sides but we need high tech tools. It may not make sense for everyone, but it definitely is needed.