British Cruisers
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- From the 1956 film 'Pursuit of the Graf Spee', WW2 veteran cruisers HMS Sheffield as HMS Ajax, INS Delhi (formerly HMS Achilles) as HMS Achilles, HMS Jamaica as HMS Exeter, HMS Cumberland as HMS Cumberland, Heavy Cruiser USS Salem as the German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee. The use of these WW2 cruisers is unique as today large warships can only be seen in modern films as CG images.
HMS Exeter fought so bravely in this battle. It was one of her shells that disabled Graf Spee’s oil purification plant that ultimately resulted in Langsdorff deciding to scuttle her off Montevideo when the Royal Navy had her cornered. Exeter eventually made it to Port Stanley for repairs. Sadly, she met her end in the Java Sea in 1942. She should have been respected as a war grave but illegal salvaging has erased her from existence. Makes me angry….
HMAS Perth and USS Houston have suffered the same fate and i believe the Dutch Cruiser HNLMS De Ruyter sunk in a battle just before the others were sunk. It seems that with all the atomic tests in the world since WW2 the steel in these old ships is of value in medical equipment as new steel is contaminated. We complain about the locals removing the steel, but are happy to accept it for our own use knowing it must come for these sources.
@@glenngrant7778 same goes for many more ships sunk in the area. At least several Dutch destroyers also sunk in the Java Sea disappered afaik.
Grad Spee was an armoured ship, an overgunned heavy cruiser that should never have got mixed up in a major sea action with cruisers so far from home. Like the battlecruisers of WWI, she did not have battleship protection and paid the price for it.
@@vespelian5769 that was the British plan. To make the Graf Spree fight a suface action against any war ships even smaller gunned britsh cruisers. So far from home and no chance of repair. Any damage that reduced her speed or ability to continue the threat to the merchant shipping would be a tactical victory for the British even if they lost a light cruiser or two. The Graf Spree had bigger guns they any of the attackers and they were well trained and skilled at hitting a target. The captain of the Graf Spree may of made a mistake he should and used his speed to get away as i understand it. However I am not a sailor and have not had to make the decisions that he had to make. He had no way if knowing that escape might have been possible if he turned away.
@@glenngrant7778 Once the Brits identified the Admiral Graf Spee that was it. The Spee was actually a couple of knots slower than the slowest of the three British ships. Langsdorff's only hope of escape was to cripple the three cruisers, even a single ship could have (as far as Langsdorff knew) called in additional Royal Navy warships to finish the fight. Captain Langsdorf was concerned that one of those ships could have been a battlecruiser with 15" guns, quite capable of tearing the German cruiser apart.
The greatest navy the world has ever seen then now and forever.
Obviously forgot about the New Zealand ship
'under the direct operational control of the British Amiralty. .' No one forgot about th NZ ship, it was part of the British Fleet.
Graf Spee had 6 x 11 inch guns. USS Salem had 9 x 8 inch guns and was the last heavy cruiser ever built (1948) and is now a museum ship.
That's the Salem @ 2:11
USS Salem was one of three Des Moines class heavy cruisers. She is now a museum ship in Massachusetts. The Graf Spee was one of three classed as " pocket battleships" by the British (as mentioned in the film) but later classed as heavy cruisers. The other two ships were Admiral Sheer and Deutshland (later renamed Lutzow).
The actor at 4:27 is Jack Gwillim, who served twenty years in the Royal Navy. He retired after the war and became an actor. Legend has it that when he went aboard ship to film this movie he was not pleased with the condition of the ship and began ordering the men to smarten up, coil the lines properly, align the gun mounts perfectly, etc. When the real officers complained to the real captain, he replied: "I was a midshipman under Gwillim. I was terrified of him then and I am still terrified of him. Do as he says."
They capitalized on that scary aspect of Gwillim in Jason and the Argonauts (1963) where he played the evil King Aeëtes, who conjures the skeletal warriors with some assistance from Ray Harryhausen!
That's great!👍
Shows tge he was a professional!😊
Thats superb information, educational and entertaining. Thank you.
😁 .. love it!
During the war my father was in the US Navy over in England. He had the opportunity to visit a British man of war. To say the least he too wasn't impressed the British ship keeping.
I like how they look in five different directions when they get the call "Red 100"
I'll tell you, you have to have a lot of respect for the brits - they go into battle without even putting on their helmets!
To make sure other ships aren't coming at them from another direction.
Those scruffy looking officers haven't even put their ties on, Its a disgrace.
Nor do we go into battle with those ghastly sirens beloved of the US navy.
A proper bugler sounding action stations if you please.
You need a bl00dy good helmet to stop an eleven inch shell so why bother?
At 4:37 the gunnery fire control crew are wearing shirts and shorts in the middle of the battle. They kept cool.
Good to hear a 4.20 call in there.
Designers of British warships must have been sadists. Imagine sailors trying to work on a bloody open bridge in heavy seas and rain. Shoulda joined the Army.
the RN did have indoor conning towers, but no one ever used them :)
@@keithskelhorne3993 Keep calm and xarry on (and keep a stiff upper lip)!!
@@keithskelhorne3993 small keyboard and large fingers cause many typos!!
There MAY have been a bit of artistic license going on here. Warships of that type would have had an armored bridge for the captain and his assistants to conn the ship during combat or heavy weather. However it may have been a bit easier on the film's budget to shoot from an open bridge set than from a simulated enclosed bridge.
Then again, maybe not. Since the film-makers were seemingly trying for the most authenticity maybe Commodore Harwood and his captains DID fight their ships from an open bridge.
It doesn't matter really, it's a great movie just the same! Why split hairs?
@@wayneantoniazzi2706 Not really British captains were notorious for not using the battle bridge. They used to argue they could not get a good enough all round view of the situation. There was also a lot of resistance to even enclosed bridges during that time as well. Tradition and what not lol
These three ships were out gunned by the German ship . The armour on the German ship was twelve inches thick. Our boys did a good job.
your lads had drake and nelson on their side tho. more than makes up for it
Graf Speed had essentially cruiser armor maybe slightly heavier on main turrets. That is why the Graf Spee took as much damage as she did from the 8-in guns of the Exeter and The 6-in guns of Ajax and Achilles. Commodore Harwood did an excellent job of briefing his captains on what he planned to do. Everyone was on the same page from the moment the guns open fired.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer The other advantage the RN had was the quickness of the 6 inch gun. It was manually loaded vs the 8 inch and Graff Spee's 11 inchers had to be mechanically loaded. Only the first opening salvos an 8 inch is better than a 6 inch but then the 6 inch takes over by simply peppering is enemy. Most of the strikes to Graff Spee were overwhelmingly 6inch due to their ability to simply continuously fire when the bigger guns could only fire as fast as the loading systems would allow. That's one of the main reasons the RN chose to go with more 6inch cruisers than 8 inchers.
The Graf Spee's armor was no better than heavy cruiser armor at best. Even the gun turrets were not especially heavily armored. The cruisers were also faster than the Graf Spee, which was diesel powered compared to the cruisers steam turbines.
The lookout on HMS Ajax at 1:30 (in an uncredited minor part) is debut actor Donald Moffat - who played the US President for the 1996 film "Clear and Present Danger" ....as well as many other TV and movie roles.
Thanks, I thought I recognized him.
I thought that’s who that was. Good eyes Macone
Wow. It is too!
Moffat also played C. J. Craig's father in The West Wing. It was one of his last roles.
Sorry, meant C. J. Gregg
The German captain made a fatal mistake, once he identified the ships as British warships, he should have made smoke and ran. He was there to raid commerce shipping not engage the British navy so far from home
All three of the British ships were faster, they brought him to battle.
@@guysatchwell6990 although the British ships were faster the Graf Spee would have done better in heavy seas and with some fancy maneuvers at night could have I believe slipped away. Plus I believe the Exeter was 1st in the scene bringing up the light cruisers
Interesting tid bit about this. The engagement with the Graf Spee is in real time in the movie
Where did that plane land... ? 😊
The smaller ships played there part, what withRadar, spotting the Bismaro
Not likely; SV was published more than 40 years ago.
the "pocket battleship" is flying the Stars and Stripes!!!!!
It's the USS Salem.
A very good movie although Langsdorff is badly portrayed by Peter Finch. The goofy gu in the watch cap is Bill Nighy who is still a great character actor.
In what way was Langsdorf badly portrayed?
I think you need to look again as Bill Nighy was six years old when this film was being made.
大変です
😂
Achilles was not British - RNZNS light cruiser
Not quite, during this battle she was part of the Royal Navys New Zealand Division as she wasn't transferred to the Royal New Zealand Navy until it was created in September 1941, but she was certainly crewed with a large contingent of New Zealanders!
@@arrrgee or 300 individualists , as the captain described them in this film 😄😄
she was fighting for the same king
@@migmadmarine nope all commonwealth nations did not fight for anything but an obvious need in Europe .The crown was secondary
This film was actually called "The Battle Of The River Plate"
It was under the title 'The Battle of the River Plate' in Britain and for the U.S. release it was 'Pursuit of the Graf Spee'.
@@zuluking79 I have the DVD of this film under the UK title, along with another 30 or so war films and also various documentaries (eg. The World at War). Currently, though, I am running through "The Last kingdom" Seasons 1-4, backed up by the original novels!
I'm always in two minds about this movie. On the one hand, I like it when they use real ships. On the othe rhand, USS Salem really doesn't look like Graf Spee.
It might have helped a bit if they painted out the USN hull numbers, but the Navy wouldn't allow it. Still, better than nothing!
You have to enjoy the film for what it is, because there's NO WAY one of it's kind could be made today! CGI just isn't the same, as good as it's getting to be.
@@wayneantoniazzi2706 True. For 'Sink the Bismarck' they used models in a tub and it looked better than cgi.
@@ajvanmarle You said it! Those models in "STB" were absolute masterpieces of the modelers art! Even after 60 years the film's impressive for it's realism.
It wasn't the Salem used in the movie it may have been the quincy witch was sold to the argentine navy and sunk by a British submarine during the Falkland Island war
@@SuperLukeduke No, it was USS Salem. She is currently in Quincy Massachutes as a museum ship. That may have caused some confusion. If you look closely you can see that she has the newer Mk 16 gun turrets. (And her name is on the cast, when they roll credits.) Also, the ship the British sunk in the Falklands was originally USS Phoenix, a Brooklyn class light cruiser, not an 8-inch cruiser.
The hell with special effects, there is nothing like real footage of real ships with really big guns. Well, not big by Yamato standards, but bigger than what we have today.
This film had the distinct advantage of having many WW2 era ships still existing and able to sail (some with a bit of work needed first).
Today, no such thing exists. So one has to resort to special effects to get the job done. When done where, they look great.
HMS Ajax and HMS Cornwall were there at the actual battle AND took part in this film.
Doubt that will ever happen again.
Mistake - not Ajax but her sister, Achilles.
Ships rock when big guns fire. In the real world.
@@agwhitaker it was the real Achilles although by this time she had been sold to India. Ajax was played HMS Jamaica.
Achilles gun turret is in Auckland, you can see it just inside the navy base fence.
As they formed up for attack it made me damn proud to be an Englishman. Even though I am not an Englishman.
made be damn proud??
@@dunruden9720 Made *me damn proud. Obvious typo is obvious.
👍😂😂
@@28pbtkh23 As Lord Nelson said, "Oh, forget the elaborate plans, just go for them! That's what I always do!"
And "No captain can do very wrong by placing his ship alongside the enemy!"
The RN just had to win in the end against the Germans, it wouldn't happen overnight, but it WOULD happen.
Maybe you are Scots ? Welsh ? Irish ?
When warships play younger versions of themselves in a movie...
There is an interesting prelude to the battle. Graf Spee had a seaplane but it was inoperable and so the ship had lost it's beyond the horizon spotting capacity. So it wasn't possible to identify the enemy ships properly. Langsdorf thought he was facing a light cruiser and two destroyers. He might have kept his distance if he had known the truth a bit earlier. As it was, he let a heavy cruiser and two light cruisers get into range. The decision to scuttle the ship was made under the impression that there were British battlecruisers waiting for him outside the port. As Graf Spee had only enough ammo for one hour of fighting they didn't stand a chance. Langsdorf shot himself after he realised he had been duped. At least he saved most of his crew. An honourable man.
Indeed. He was a sailor.. not a Nazi.
More to the point, Spee's fuel purification plant had been damaged beyond repair in the first action, and she had only about 24 hours of usable fuel left. She had also expended around 70% of her ammunition in the first action.
@@louisavondart9178 he should have fled, regardless of what ships they were. She was a commerce raider
One thing that I could never understand was why Exeter was detached to investigate when and aircraft (later used to call the range) would have performed the same task quicker. Yes, it would have warned Langsdorff but at these ranges that was irrelevant.
I am.of the view that by so doing, that opened Exeter to massive damage before Ajax and Achilles got within range.
@@andrewstackpool4911 the Exeter should have just trailed the graff spee (not sure if she had radar or not) until the rest showed up. Rather than one on one outgunned 3 on one
My gosh I never knew such good footage of britains most marvellous cruisers still existed. Oh those lines of the Colonies.
If you can get hold of copy there is some brilliant colour footage in the film The Baby and the Battleship
One of my favourite films, never tire of seeing those cruisers
I am fond of USS Saint Paul in the film, In Harms Way.... These cruisers were still in active or reserve service when these films were shot... In the television mini series War and Remembrance the show used current destroyers to play the role of battleships... They just didn't have the special effects capability back during those days or the financial clout to manufacture realistic sets for warships... And the models used in the film Corvette K222 showed how flimsy models can be even for a film with Randolph Scott in the lead role...
@@TheGmeister812 Beautiful ships, that's for certain!
They had a full analogue computer set up. The AFCT (Admiralty Fire Control table) was a box full of analogue computation devices of various sorts (potters wheels, differentials, integrators etc) with most info set in with masses of handwheels. We had an old one at the RAN training est in early 70's. You can see pics of one in the TS (transmitting station) on Belfast.
So, that director you can see the guys sitting in fed bearing and elevation to the computer; while a stereoscopic rangefinder gave range (unless radar used). Some stabilised, some not, depending on mod. Own ship values like course/speed were fed in, and plotting calculated target course/speed and inclination.
External ballistics were fed in (air pressure/humidity/temp etc), and internal ballistics also taken into account (powder lot no, barrel wear, shell weight, (shell types/how fused vary in weight, hence muzzle velocity) mag and mount internal temps.) MV of most naval mounts are (very roughly) over twice the speed of sound. To give examples, the 50's era 4.5 has a (nominal) MV of appprox 2350 FPS. The later (current) 5 inch "lightweight" mount (FMC, used by many navies) has a nominal MV of 2650 FPS in a "standard FC environment".
"Range tables" (elevation required for a set range throughout the range of the gun) was integrated into the computers.
From all this the computer outputs were bearing, elevation, fuse number and firing pulse.
We still do all that, but the computers are a bit more advanced; and of course, radar tracking.
But the settings are all important. People think "oh, all automatic/push a button", but like a calculator = rubbish in equals rubbish out.
The ships that show attention to detail/exact ballistic settings are the ones who win the gunnery shields.
So in those days, while their AA gunnery was a bit average/in infancy, their surface and NGS (Gunfire Support against shore) was reasonably sophisticated; and was computer controlled, even though the computer was basic...... they did take a lot into account.
As a Forces child, living in Hong Kong (1955-58), I saw the visiting INS Dehli/ex-HMNZS Achilles. I also went aboard the town class HMS Newcastle, with the colony class HMS Newfoundland parked alongside. 7yrs living in the Far East - Singapore/Malaya and Hong Kong, with 4 months cruising on troopships - good cabins and excellent nosh - two times each way through the Suez Canal - seeing and passing RN cruisers and destroyers, and the odd aircraft carrier - luvely jubbly!
Truth Seeker we were stationed in HongKong from 57 to 59 as kids.
Brilliant memories, thanks for sharing.
Me too Stanley Fort 65 too 67 and Gun Club Barracks 69 too 71. Went aboard the USS Enterprise, HMS Fearless and others. Happy memories of my teen years. Born in Germany 56.
@@bepolite6961 - My father was in the Royal Signals, and until we got an MQ in Paget Block, Victoria Barracks, we lived in an MQ at Stanley Fort. He commuted to Viccy Bks., and my brother and I went to Stanley school. - It was 1956 - the 27th HAA with aging 3.7in. AA guns were in residence - we young bucks had the hots for the colonel's rather dishy daughter.
Great memories shared on these threads. Good stuff. :-)
Always loved this movie. One line that never loses its sting is Harwood's "give her the lot!"
"Take that you beast!"
I never thought Anthony Quayle could snarl like that!
God rest his soul, what a fine actor he was!
He was a Major in the Royal Artillery in WW2
Wow, I saw John Steed in there!! I wonder of Mrs Peel was below decks...........................:).
A VERY young Pat McNee there! He actually served in the Royal Navy during WWII, but on torpedo boats not cruisers.
My grandfather was killed on hms Exeter during the battle of the river plate during the film my father was serving on hms Jamaica which played the role of hms Exeter
Sincere respects to them both John. RIP.
Love how at 1.39 the officer makes the excuse of there being a lot of haze while the rating contradicts with ' clear as day, sir'.
It's amazing how much the Graf Spee looked like a Des Moines-class heavy cruiser! ( 2:07 ) Well they did a great job on this movie anyway!
That heavy cruiser is the USS Salem
@@bobellis2026 ウィキペディアにも書かれましたね。
@@bobellis2026 Didn't know you spoke Japanese, Bob.... Fancy that !!!
I spent time in Saesbo Yokohama, and Yokuska
@@bobellis2026 Excellent. Bob, looks like my "light sarcasm" backfired well and proper. All the best.
Like a pack of Terriers peacefully going about their business, looking for a fight.
The captain of the Graf Spee said that he had to be bigger than anythig faster and faster than anything bigger, probably a lesson in life generally there.
that was the design idea, but the simple fact of the matter was, the battlecruisers HMS Repluse, HMS Renown and HMS Hood were all bigger, and had the top speed to run her down if they ever met, and were already in royal navy service. I suppose thats also a life lesson in itself: theirs always a bigger fish.
Originally released as "Battle of the River Plate".
Hunting a German cruiser that is actually USS Salem(CA139)can get a ships captain in a lot of trouble.
Exeter's stand-in, Cruiser 139 was the USN Salem, a Des Moines class heavy cruiser launched after the war. Her 8" guns were loaded "automatically" leading to a 6 second firing cycle. That's 90 rounds a minute broadside.
The Salem played the Graf Spee, not Exeter.
The Salem still exists
I was ten when I first saw this film in 1966 on the TV. The world cup was on and I have never liked football. Even so I had my world cup Willie the lion mascot on as I watched it and I have never forgotten it, great film.
‘Battle of River Plate’
The “signal light” being used here is far too small. It looks exactly like the ones issued for lifeboats. The real ones would be 2ft diameter and fixed. Also personal telescopes like that went out of fashion in the 19th century. Everyone would have had binoculars.
The technical advisers for the movie had been present on the bridge of the ships depicted during the battle: and the real ships were used to play the parts of the British Cruisers. I'd like to think they got it right.
That small "signal light" is called an "Aldis Lamp" and was used when you were in close proximity to other ships. Large signal lamps are used for greater range.
Get that plane off, dump any AvGas and any depth charges. You want to limit the amount of explosive and/or inflammable materials aboard when enemy shells strike.
"Battle of the River Plate"👍🇬🇧
I love that order, 'hoist battle ensign'.
Yes , one has to go into Battle properly , it is dashed bad manners not too.
It was an old tradition in the Royal Navy to hoist more than one battle ensign. The thinking was that if they only flew a single ensign and, it was shot away during the course of the battle, the enemy might mistakenly think the RN ship had struck its colours and was surrendering.
I saw this film at school. I was probably 11 or 12. There was a series of RANK war films which we saw and this was one of them. Damn busters being another and one about the British spy Odette who was captured and tortured by the gestapo. Very inspirational films
'Carve Her Name with Pride'
Dam busters!
back in the 70s we had this plan of dropping 55 gal drums of stuff way down in the bottom of this huge lake by us, then seeing what kind of catfish floated up.
We had heard of some monster fish down deep in these natural lakes....
then years later that Dam Buster movie was on ..... I was like "thank God it was all talk"
The deepest part was right by the dam .... we had already dropped a string down, it was 150' deep, need to know to set fuse lentgh..... none of us had the cash for the fuse and powder ...
I wish the Brits still ran Hong Kong. 😢
So do most of the Hong Kongese.
@@odysseusrex5908 I would think so!
They were warned the PRC would not honor the agreement and they haven't.
This was a actual classic naval battle fought in 1939. The German pocket battleship Graf spree was armed with 6 " 11 " inch guns, 8 " 5.9 " inch guns, numerous aa duns, and last but not least 8 "21" inch torpedo tubes in her fantail.
Her captain was a first rate human being, was not a nazi scum. Prior to this naval engagement the Graf Spree, had sunk 9 Allied merchant vessels without any loss of life.
The British had 1 heavy cruiser "8" inch guns, and 2 light cruisers " 6" inch guns. The British fought the battle very wisely as history shows!!
Hats off to both sides!!!
The Graf Spee only had 21" torpedoes? That can't be correct. How much damage could a torpedo only 21 inches long do? Plus I doubt it had enough propellant for it's motor for it to travel a kilometer.
@@danielfronc4304 Ha ha ha!
@@danielfronc4304 torpedoes are measured by their diameter not their length. NATO standards submarine torpedoes are still 21 in. I believe the aircraft launch variety are 12-in, however they have a shaped charge instead of a demolition charge now I believe. The asrock I believe also uses a variant of the 12-in torpedo.
"By George, look at Exeter's battle flags, she's dressing ship"
Is that an Alaska Class "Battle Cruiser"/"Large Cruiser" masquerading as the Graf Spee?
No, Des Moines class Heavy Cruiser designed during World War II, but not completed until post-war. USS Salem (CA-139) was the last heavy cruiser built for the U.S. Navy and is now a museum ship in Quincy, MA at her old shipyard.
That's actually the USS Salem @2:11
The irony is, that Commodore Harwood's squadron was the weakest of the various "Hunting Groups" that were searching for the Graf Spee. Ajax and Achilles being a pair of 8 gun six inch Cruisers, Exeter having 6 gun eight inch Cruiser. Harwood also had another eight inch Cruiser in the shape of HMS Cumberland, which had been on detached duty in the Pacific. Though she'd returned round the Horn and was refitting in the Falklands and missed out on the main action. She did though turn up off the Rio del a Plate replacing Exeter which had taken a beating.
Sorry to correct you sir, but Ajax and Achilles had 6 inch guns, Exeter had 8 inch ones, and also the Cumberland. I am Uruguayan, 82, and when the Graf Spee was scuttled by her crew it was my 1st b'day: 17th December 1939.
@@ivanlussich8146 Something has been lost in translation. As both Ajax and Achilles had 8 guns which were of 6 inch callibre. WithExeter having 6 * inch guns along with Cumberland having 8 inchers too.
@@ivanlussich8146 That's what he said.
To everyone's point, the armament was important, yet academic, the aggressive spirit won the day; the British & New Zealand gunnery wasn't the best, but they were in it to win: " it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog" ;)
@@danielw5850 The British/New Zealand gunnery disabled the desalination and oil purifcation systems which rendered the Graf Spee unable to operate its diesel engines without extensive repair - not possible within the 72 hours allowed in a neutral port. The number of hits suffered varies from 19 upwards, killing 37 and wounding 57, the latter included the captain.
I'm always fascinated by naval gunnery when you consider you and your target are both on the move and maybe at considerable distance from each other. I guess there was some form of mechanical computing but must have been rudimentary at best.
They had a full analogue computer set up. The AFCT (Admiralty Fire Control table) was a box full of analogue computation devices of various sorts (potters wheels, differentials, integrators etc) with most info set in with masses of handwheels. We had an old one at the RAN training est in early 70's. You can see pics of one in the TS (transmitting station) on Belfast.
So, that director you can see the guys sitting in fed bearing and elevation to the computer; while a stereoscopic rangefinder gave range (unless radar used). Some stabilised, some not, depending on mod. Own ship values like course/speed were fed in, and plotting calculated target course/speed and inclination.
External ballistics were fed in (air pressure/humidity/temp etc), and internal ballistics also taken into account (powder lot no, barrel wear, shell weight, (shell types/how fused vary in weight, hence muzzle velocity) mag and mount internal temps.) MV of most naval mounts are (very roughly) over twice the speed of sound. To give examples, the 50's era 4.5 has a (nominal) MV of appprox 2350 FPS. The later (current) 5 inch "lightweight" mount (FMC, used by many navies) has a nominal MV of 2650 FPS in a "standard FC environment".
"Range tables" (elevation required for a set range throughout the range of the gun) was integrated into the computers.
From all this the computer outputs were bearing, elevation, fuse number and firing pulse.
We still do all that, but the computers are a bit more advanced; and of course, radar tracking.
But the settings are all important. People think "oh, all automatic/push a button", but like a calculator = rubbish in equals rubbish out.
The ships that show attention to detail/exact ballistic settings are the ones who win the gunnery shields.
So in those days, while their AA gunnery was a bit average/in infancy, their surface and NGS (Gunfire Support against shore) was reasonably sophisticated; and was computer controlled, even though the computer was basic...... they did take a lot into account.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_Fire_Control_Table
@@KJs581 Thanks for your very comprehensive response, I've used it to do a bit of my own research into the subject.
@@tomroland2315 No worries mate.
Fire Control is like anything. It is very involved, and most people aren't aware = ask questions. If you give short answers, it leads to more questions. You elaborate, then people complain "too long/boring"; hence you won't get many sharing any knowledge, as not worth "getting hassled" - so most in depth FC knowledge "dies with people"; as the training/knowledge of internals is far "shallower" now.
I entered the field when digital fire control was just starting, and followed it through to what they use now; but we still learned (and I worked on) analogue systems as well. An analogue systems output is instantaneous (generally), wheras a digital system has to convert from analogue = digital = compute it = do each operation sequentially = convert back to analogue. All that extra work - but less gear chains that wear - and VERY fast - but early on the M22 system (70's/80's) used to take half a second to run it's program - and had TINY memories.
People find analogue systems hard to understand; but a slide rule is an analogue computer. If you connect a myriad of devices like that (convert a movement to a reading on a graticule/scale) = analogue computer.
There is some I forget (used to be able to rattle off everything; did it for 40 years); but it soon comes back.
I still have range tables for 4.5 inch and 5 inch 54 at hand - the latter was always on my desk at work.............
I'll attach a link to an old "gunnery pocket book". That explains almost everything and shows how we allow for EVERYTHING (eg lateral and vertical convergence etc; which allows for difference in location of gun mounts and director), and while heavy going, the old books are the best, as they explain everything.
The new systems don't explain as in depth. They still do it; but most of the "in depth" is covered by "computer does that....." :-)
Read the book if you are interested. Buzz me here if any questions.
Nice some people are interested; but most aren't.
maritime.org/doc/br224/index.htm
Cheers :-)
Yes they had mechanical hand crank computers with dials I think the data input was done by line of sight estimating the distance .
If you want a slight idea of what one of these ships was like then HMS Belfast is a museum ship in London - roughly opposite the Tower. I found going round the engine rooms an utter maze - fortunately without the noise or the heat of the boilers actually running.
This movie is better known as 'Battle of the River Plate'.
Great film.
i recognise hms birmingham: no knuckle
"with a six inch gun up our tail, we'll do it in 6!". Love that line.
They should make alarm clocks like that
Funny when the small boat is being taken aboard the guys have Thomson .45 and the gun crew are wearing American helmets
The US forbade using German helmets or flying a swastika on the Salem. Otherwise their help in making this movie was wonderful.
The HMS Achilles and HMS Cumberland in the film were the actual ships that participated in the Battle of the River Plate (alhough the Achilles had been sold several times and was the INS Delhi of the Indian Navy at the time of filming).
always had a problem on an open bridge at 28 knots of keeping my wig on, no less my hat.
What an exposed bridge these light cruisers had -open and apparently unarmoured!
To be fair.
The Royal Navy realised that the ships officers needed to see what was going on.
You can’t do that from an armoured conning tower.
Which also adds top weight to the ship.
the royal navy had installed large, heavy armoured bridges on many of its battleships in ww1, but found that the bridge crew steadfastly refused to use them, preferring the normal unarmoured bridges because of the poor visibility in the armoured bridge. When the captians ability to fight the ship is directly related to his ability to percieve what is going on around him, they almost all choose greater sitatuional awareness of the (someone dubious) protection of the conning tower (several were hit in the coruse of both world wars, and generally even if the armour physically stopped the shot, the blast effects tended to kill or cripple the bridge crew within).
during the interwar era most of the armoured conning towers were removed from those ships that had them, and most of the newer built ships (Like all three cruisers in on the British side in this battle) never had them. so its 100% realistic that they were on the open bridge.
@@xerxeskingofking Which is why Tank Commanders tend to ride around with their heads sticking out of the turret!
The ship used to play the Graf Spee was in fact the US heavy cruiser Salem which still exists today. The who battle was one of relaying false information to the German agents in Montivado In fact the Graf Spee could have made a run to the south except Lansdorf the captain believed a task force was waiting for him
the ship you mention was sold to the argentine navy and was sunk by a british submarine during the falkland islands war
@@SuperLukeduke That was the former USS Phoenix, which survived Pearl Harbor, I believe.
True, was theEx Uds Phoenix
Graf Spee's fuel processing plant was destroyed. This separated water from the diesel fuel. Couldn't go far
@@SuperLukeduke USS Salem is a museum ship in Quincy, Massachusetts.
So how many people spotted Malta was in this film ?
I'm still trying to find the sailor with the trumpet I hear in this movie😉
He is actually a Royal Marine and is wearing Khaki - he's not technically a sailor.
I get confused in the movie what ship is what
The film was called "The Battle of the River Plate".
I thought it was "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee".
@@odysseusrex5908 No -it was "The Battle of the River Plate" I remember seeing it when it first came out! and have seen it numerous times since. There is also a book by the same name which gives the battle in great detail.
@@frenchsteam7356 Ah ha, I looked it up on IMDB. They are the same movie, it was released under both titles.
@@odysseusrex5908 It's possible "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee" was for the American audience or Europe even, anyhow it's a damn good film.
英国海軍素晴らしい✨
1. Depois disto andava Jesus pela Galiléia; pois não queria andar pela Judéia, porque os judeus procuravam matá-lo.
2. Ora, estava próxima a festa dos judeus, a dos tabernáculos.
3. Disseram-lhe, então, seus irmãos: Retira-te daqui e vai para a Judéia, para que também os teus discípulos vejam as obras que fazes.
4. Porque ninguém faz coisa alguma em oculto, quando procura ser conhecido. Já que fazes estas coisas, manifesta-te ao mundo.
5. Pois nem seus irmãos criam nele.
6. Disse-lhes, então, Jesus: Ainda não é chegado o meu tempo; mas o vosso tempo sempre está presente.
7. O mundo não vos pode odiar; mas ele me odeia a mim, porquanto dele testifico que as suas obras são más.
8. Subi vós à festa; eu não subo ainda a esta festa, porque ainda não é chegado o meu tempo.
9. E, havendo-lhes dito isto, ficou na Galiléia.
10. Mas quando seus irmãos já tinham subido à festa, então subiu ele também, não publicamente, mas como em secreto.
11. Ora, os judeus o procuravam na festa, e perguntavam: Onde está ele?
12. E era grande a murmuração a respeito dele entre as multidões. Diziam alguns: Ele é bom. Mas outros diziam: não, antes engana o povo.
13. Todavia ninguém falava dele abertamente, por medo dos judeus.
14. Estando, pois, a festa já em meio, subiu Jesus ao templo e começou a ensinar.
15. Então os judeus se admiravam, dizendo: Como sabe este letras, sem ter estudado?
16. Respondeu-lhes Jesus: A minha doutrina não é minha, mas daquele que me enviou.
17. Se alguém quiser fazer a vontade de Deus, há de saber se a doutrina é dele, ou se eu falo por mim mesmo.
18. Quem fala por si mesmo busca a sua própria glória; mas o que busca a glória daquele que o enviou, esse é verdadeiro, e não há nele injustiça.
19. Não vos deu Moisés a lei? no entanto nenhum de vós cumpre a lei. Por que procurais matar-me?
20. Respondeu a multidão: Tens demônio; quem procura matar-te?
21. Replicou-lhes Jesus: Uma só obra fiz, e todos vós admirais por causa disto.
22. Moisés vos ordenou a circuncisão (não que fosse de Moisés, mas dos pais), e no sábado circuncidais um homem.
23. Ora, se um homem recebe a circuncisão no sábado, para que a lei de Moisés não seja violada, como vos indignais contra mim, porque no sábado tornei um homem inteiramente são?
24. Não julgueis pela aparência mas julgai segundo o reto juízo.
25. Diziam então alguns dos de Jerusalém: Não é este o que procuram matar?
26. E eis que ele está falando abertamente, e nada lhe dizem. Será que as autoridades realmente o reconhecem como o Cristo?
27. Entretanto sabemos donde este é; mas, quando vier o Cristo, ninguém saberá donde ele é.
28. Jesus, pois, levantou a voz no templo e ensinava, dizendo: Sim, vós me conheceis, e sabeis donde sou; contudo eu não vim de mim mesmo, mas aquele que me enviou é verdadeiro, o qual vós não conheceis.
29. Mas eu o conheço, porque dele venho, e ele me enviou.
30. Procuravam, pois, prendê-lo; mas ninguém lhe deitou as mãos, porque ainda não era chegada a sua hora.
31. Contudo muitos da multidão creram nele, e diziam: Será que o Cristo, quando vier, fará mais sinais do que este tem feito?
32. Os fariseus ouviram a multidão murmurar estas coisas a respeito dele; e os principais sacerdotes e os fariseus mandaram guardas para o prenderem.
33. Disse, pois, Jesus: Ainda um pouco de tempo estou convosco, e depois vou para aquele que me enviou.
34. Vós me buscareis, e não me achareis; e onde eu estou, vós não podeis vir.
35. Disseram, pois, os judeus uns aos outros: Para onde irá ele, que não o acharemos? Irá, porventura, à Dispersão entre os gregos, e ensinará os gregos?
36. Que palavra é esta que disse: Buscar-me-eis, e não me achareis; e, Onde eu estou, vós não podeis vir?
37. Ora, no seu último dia, o grande dia da festa, Jesus pôs-se em pé e clamou, dizendo: Se alguém tem sede, venha a mim e beba.
38. Quem crê em mim, como diz a Escritura, do seu interior correrão rios de água viva.
39. Ora, isto ele disse a respeito do Espírito que haviam de receber os que nele cressem; pois o Espírito ainda não fora dado, porque Jesus ainda não tinha sido glorificado.
40. Então alguns dentre o povo, ouvindo essas palavras, diziam: Verdadeiramente este é o profeta.
41. Outros diziam: Este é o Cristo; mas outros replicavam: Vem, pois, o Cristo da Galiléia?
42. Não diz a Escritura que o Cristo vem da descendência de Davi, e de Belém, a aldeia donde era Davi?
43. Assim houve uma dissensão entre o povo por causa dele.
44. Alguns deles queriam prendê-lo; mas ninguém lhe pôs as mãos.
45. Os guardas, pois, foram ter com os principais dos sacerdotes e fariseus, e estes lhes perguntaram: Por que não o trouxestes?
46. Responderam os guardas: Nunca homem algum falou assim como este homem.
47. Replicaram-lhes, pois, os fariseus: Também vós fostes enganados?
48. Creu nele porventura alguma das autoridades, ou alguém dentre os fariseus?
49. Mas esta multidão, que não sabe a lei, é maldita.
50. Nicodemos, um deles, que antes fora ter com Jesus, perguntou-lhes:
51. A nossa lei, porventura, julga um homem sem primeiro ouvi-lo e ter conhecimento do que ele faz?
52. Responderam-lhe eles: És tu também da Galiléia? Examina e vê que da Galiléia não surge profeta.
53. E cada um foi para sua casa.
(João, 7)....
It always annoys me that Harwood disobeyed his own battle directive as shown. His intent was for all three cruisers to attack simultaneously to split Graf Spee's fire (six eleven-inch guns in two turrets for and aft). If the movie is correct there was initial and unacceptable confusion in the squadron. They were expecting the German but when the smoke was sighted no immediate action occurred. And instead of dispatching his most significant asset, EXETER, to investigate smoke he should have launched an aircraft. As it was EXETER found herself alone engaging a vastly superior well trained opponent. A lesser captain than Bell may have seen the squadron destroyed.
@Andrew Stackpool: Actually, when you think about it, Harwood didn't disobey his instructions. It was always the case that Exeter was to attack on one side, Ajax and Achilles on the other. The idea being to split Graf Spey's fire. Those 6" light cruisers wouldn't do too well against the 11" battle-cruiser. Even Exeter with her 8" guns was fighting above her weight!
@@PercyPruneMHDOIFandBars I still disagree. Harwood had met with his captain's earlier and provided his appreciation of the tactical situation as well as his tactics for attacking the panzerschiff. This a you point out was for the squadron to attack from both sides with guns and torpedoes to split the German fire (Graf Speed and Exeter did fire torpedoes at each other). The squadron then practiced the manoeuvres. However, next day after smoke is sighted there seems to have been some delay in deciding it was indeed the expected enemy (yes I can appreciate non-radar fitted ship's relying on the Mk1 eyeball). But detaching Exeter at that crucial point meant that, and the movie makes this very clear, she found herself facing the combined weight of the German main armament unsupported as Achilles and Ajax then had to effectively run astern chase to get into their lesser range. As we saw Exeter took massive punishment before they finally came into the fight despite making smoke. I reiterate that all three carried aircraft and at least one was airborne to call the shots. Positive identification would have been made sooner and faster if one had been despatched.
@Andrew Stackpool: You make a very valid point. However, launching and especially recovering an aircraft was quite a complicated process. Recovery needed the ship to stop to crane the aircraft aboard!
Graf Spee appears from an unexpected direction and, bearing in mind the time of day, has the advantage of having darker sky behind her. Whilst they were expecting to meet her, evidently it wasn't from the Northwest. A spotter aircraft so far out at sea, would advertise the presence of Naval units and Langsdorf would have been able to use his speed advantage to avoid contact.
The British ships were actually ahead of Graf Spee (hence "smoke bearing red 100") and had to turn to engage, so it was better to send Exeter to investigate and, of course, pass on the now famous list of spares!
Remember, no battle plans, however brilliant ever survive first contact with the enemy.
On a more personal note. Thank you for engaging in a little armchair admiralty. I find it fascinating and fun to think about this kind of thing and not only try and figure out a better way, but try to figure out why the actual decisions were made!
I thought the German pocket BS looked American lol. The GS had a single triple turret fore and aft
@Brian Anthony. Well... since they decided to go with real ships instead models it was obvious that they will have to improvise when comes to Graff Spee since all three Deutchland class PBs no longer existed...
However, if such movie would made today then with help of the ship models (for the decks scenes) and CGI combat shots... this battle would look quite different... and lot more real.
yhea, for obvious reasons they couldnt use a actual Deutschland-class since all three of the Panzerschiff had been sunk, so they used a US heavy cruiser, with the fiction that the Spee was disguising itself as a US cruiser with a false turret (discussed in an earlier scene). The USS Salem was actually somewhat larger than the Spee, by several thousand tons displacement (or to put it another way, about the mass of a destroyer or more).
The NAZTY VERMANS didn't have numbers on their bows. 139 was the US ship Salem!!! Typical.
The Graf Spee would of stood a Chance against the Post war USS Salem and her new fast firing 8 in.Guns and better FC, Plus far better Armour !!!
@Paul Beduhn Kinda like the pathetic Shermans hunting German heavy tanks in numbers of four. The first one getting blown up alerts you to their presence. The second Sherman charging forward occupies the tiger (or whatever) while the last 2 Shermans maneuver to the German tank's six. If you're lucky you may kill a Tiger and accompanying tank and 2 Shermans survive, maybe only one. Still it was a battle of attrition, a death by a thousand cuts. The U.S. just had an unending supply line.
@@danielfronc4304 is it really fair to call the sherman, a medium tank, pathetic because it couldnt beat a tank twice its sized and part of a class of designed specifically to be capable of taking on multiple smaller vehicles? And the shermans performance against german tanks wasnt bad at all, especially considering what people seem to think. Its gun could handle most of what it encountered. It was better armored then all of the more common panzer models. More survivable too, and more reliable. Definitely more versatile and practical then anything the germans had and built to a higher quality then anything the russians had. If fact id argue the sherman was the best true medium tank of the war, all things considered. And this nonesense about it taking a platoon of them to kill a tiger is ridiculous. It only happened once or twice and never when the tanks were focused on the tiger alone, and never when the germans were on the offensive, which of course grants them a natural advantage. Also, im confident Salem could easily beat graf spee. Sure, she had bigger guns, but her armor was no better than that of a heavy cruiser really, hence why three small british cruisers could damage her. If put against Salem, with her rapid 8inch guns, better gun laying, higher top speed (if im not mistaken) and more reliable power plant, Salem wouldve won. Simply by pummeling graf spee into submission before she could manage a decent response. Hell, id wager a Baltimore or Cleveland would stand a decent chance against the old pocket battleship. Bigger guns dont count for much if the turrets have been hit so many times theyre knocked off their barbettes or on fire, or if the superstructure is a heap of scrap atop the hull. Thicker armor doesnt matter if its still not enough to stop whats being fired at you.
@@whispofwords2590 The Des Moines class had belt armour between 4 & 6 inches thick, and deck armour of 3.5 inches. The Deutchlands had a belt between 2.4 & 3.1 inches thick, and deck armour of 1.6 to 1.8 inches thick. Given the Des Moines' rate of fire of 10 rounds per gun per minute, Graf Spee would have been hopelessly outclassed. Cumberland, by comparison, had belt armour of 4.5 inches, and deck armour of 1.25 inches.
The Commodore is wearing rear admiral rank insignia!
Harwood is depicted (probably correctly) as a Commodore (First Class), so is wearing the same reefer jacket and hat as a rear admiral which was correct at the time. If he had been wearing shoulder boards, these would have been slightly different from those of a rear admiral. There is some debate about whether Harwood, who had previously been a Commodore (Second Class), was ever actually promoted to the First Class, even though he had a captain in command of his pendant (flag) ship, which was the usual distinction between first and second class commodores. It was clearly the Admiralty’s intention that Harwood’s new appointment would be as a commodore first class, but just before the battle he was complaining that he still hadn’t received official notification of his promotion, even though he’d had his uniforms altered. He was promoted to rear admiral immediately after the battle, so the question became academic and may never have been fully resolved. The distinction between first and second class commodores has now disappeared from the Royal Navy, and all commodores wear a single broad stripe and single row of oak leaves (ie the old second class markings).
That’s when we had a navy. And when it was filmed
those British Cruisers are handsome looking ships
How did they manage to fight with all that music playing?
Oh shit lndonesia flags Jakarta sea Bali Oh my god Dutch East indies ....
Would you prefer fake real ships nothing like historical, or Japanese model stuff like In Harms Way?
Just like the British battlecruisers the German pocket battleships forward turrets swamped in heavy seas
Hooray ! Here come the gentry bred officers. They know how to win the war, as long as all the jolly jacks getting killed dont get in the way 😅
I saw this at the cinema in Belfast(I was 12). It brought tears to my eyes. People smoked in the cinema then, so every movie did so. It took hours for the stinging to stop.
But seriously, on the big screen, the ships were stunning.
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So how many people spotted Malta was in this film ?
And calling Midshipmen - ‘snottys’...
snotties
My father went to Dartmouth in 1936, so was 16 in 1939. ...... Trainee Midshipman on HMS Hood, and transferred 3 weeks before she sailed. ...... He knew Midshipman Dundas, one of the 3 survivors. ...... Then to submarine HMS Torbay, was First Lieutenant by 1945, with a DSC & MID, and about to command a submarine at war, had the Japanese not unsportingly upped sticks. ...... Commanded T-Class submarines until 1956. ...... Probably did missions off Korea, as I found footage on Pathe of his submarine in the Sea of Japan. ...... He never mentioned being there, but HMS Torbay had landed agents on enemy coasts in WW2, so he had experience in such operations. ...... A man forged in war, and as tough as nails.
@@dunruden9720 Pedant….
Question: Does the Royal Navy continue to have a RM Bugler, sound "Actions Stations"?
That was back when every ship carried a detachment of Royal Marines, and Royal marine band. So there would have been buglers on board. And ships had huge crews.
In my Navy (RAN) most of our traditions were based on the RN, so we originally had our band in Royal Marine uniforms (ages ago). But later (mid 60's onwards??) they just wore sailor rig.
So when we had our carrier (Melbourne) the band was continually posted to Melbourne.
So EVERYTHING was sounded by bugle call, wakey wakey/stand easy/secure/pipe down etc etc - EVERYTHING.
So I would say that their new carrier would have band embarked, so probably have "brought that back". We (RAN) now also have two "helo carriers" but I haven't heard of any permanent band, (as not huge crew of QE carrier) except for ceremonial (short term) posting, so I don't think we will go back to it.
Besides, while most of our matelots know what bosun's call pipes mean; they probably wouldn't know the bugle calls now.
@@KJs581 Many thanks for the comprehensive reply.
@@danielw5850 No worries mate. :-)
Every order is followed by a question
Who's the guy throwing buckets water at the bridge ?
Hms Exeter was lost in 1942 in java sea against superior japanese forces
🍞Daily Bread.
The Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, good morning blessed, reflect.
'For freedom was that Christ set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit yourselves again to the yoke of slavery.' Galatians 5:1
When Paul writes to the Galatians, he intends to fight something of human nature, which is to fight for something he doesn't have, forgetting what he already has, in this case freedom. Our call was to freedom, contrary to what many think Jesus did not call us to a new slavery regime. He called us to God's freedom. The decision to remain free is in our hands, Christ has set us free and we are the ones who decide to remain free. We can do everything but not everything is convenient.
PRAYER: Lord God, thank you for the freedom, which was won by Jesus Christ, purchased at the price of Blood. Teach me to value freedom more, and forgive my lack of gratitude. Help me to stand firm, and help me not to be yoked to slavery. I pray in Jesus' name. Amen.
🙏🏼
Dio stramaledica gli inglesi,sempre!🪖🪖
Not a rainbow flag in sight!! How refreshing!!
Those German range finders will get you ever time .
That quiet understated music right at the start when the killick first sights the distant smoke......chilling.
Yes beautifully understated
In the film the Graf Spey, was it not a US warship dressed up as a look--a-like?
Yes, but not exactly a look-alike. Graf Spee had only two main gun turrets; USS Salem had three.
funnily enough there was a world wide shortage of Panzerschiffs when the film was made
Pocket Battle Ships were diesel powered . This one was msking smoke ?
No pocket battleship were avaiable. So they featured USS Salem.
In theory, the diesel-powered Graf Spee should not have been making visible smoke over the horizon, but in practice, very little excess oil was needed to produce a distinct haze over the ship.
The Germans had already encountered difficulties in suppressing their own smoke when stalking their commerce targets.
In the case of running down lone freighters in the wastes of the South Atlantic it hardly mattered, but Langsdorf was well aware that smoke could lead to an abrupt end to his campaign if it was ever spotted by RN lookouts.
I recall the British still spotted smoke from the funnel
@@peterson7082
The Germans ran into similar problems with their diesel-powered converted merchant raiders. In the 1930's, large marine diesels were in their developmental period and there were still some reliability issues. The main tactical advantage of diesels was their considerably higher efficiency than steam propulsion, hence greater operating range at a time when the world's oceans were infested with British cruisers tasked with the specific mission of hunting down and destroying all of the German raiders.
Friendly re-fueling and provisioning ports for the Germans around the world were very scarce in 1939 (even in South America as it turned out)
Why did they not use the cruiserscope ?
That's a young Donald Moffat on the 'Bins' when he was still a Brit, then he goes on to be LBJ and another dodgy president in Clear & Present Danger.
Christopher Lee's in this film but not a vampire .
What a scruffy shower - we have some in black 'ats, some in white and some bloke looks like a chimbley sweep - Not the real Navy - more like a seagoing version of Fred Karnows Army!
A young Donald Moffat as the lookout.
INDONESIA Joko widodo
Los uniformes estan sumamente herrados