As a lineman at the Toronto Transit Commission I'm very impressed with the overhead you have built for your railway. Most of our streetcar line have had the overhead change from a pole to pantograph overhead system now.
That means a lot, thank you! I've considered experimenting with making some pantographs to try out, if I was to convert to pantographs on everything then that would allow me to easily tension the main wire as it does not have to be a continuous cable. Its an idea I've been kicking around for a while now and have some rough plans in mind for a scaled down pantograph device. You might see it in the future!
As someone who spent 30+ years of his professional life ''modelling'' tramways in 12'' - 1ft scale I can say that there is still a lot of good in using trolley poles for ULR and People mover applications. Pantographs bring a new set of problems to cope with and their OLE brings a new cascade of problems. I would strongly advise that you stick with what you have got. @@CNW4145
I'm watching this from the UK. Seen a few videos of this tramway but this video had me hooked. Watched the full length and found it amazing. Very rustic looking in construction but it works fine. Thank you for showing how it all goes together. Would love to visit but living across the pond makes it out of reach.
Hey you have lots of cool stuff over there I'd like to see too, been over a few times but not to visit any railways. Someday hopefully! Thanks for checking this out :)
Thanks for this very informative video. I have marveled at your railroad for some years and greatly enjoy your videos. I grew up, quite some time ago, in Chicago and so as a child was in an environment with catenary on many streets that had streetcar lines. Within less than a half mile from where I lived were three car lines and an Illinois Central Suburban line. It was magic as a child to watch the wheels, shoes and pantographs working. The sparks added to the fun. Cheers for your effort and ingenuity!
Sadly, I witnessed the complete abandonment of all the streetcar lines and had the dubious experience of riding on the last streetcar to run in Chicago. My complete fascination with anything that ran on rails and was powered by electricity was kindly nurtured by my father. He worked at Pullman Car Works for eighteen years and took me on all the remaining electric railroads in the Chicago area on many occasions during the 1950s. As that kid, I used to dream about having a railroad very much like the one you have made. Cheers to you! @@CNW4145
That sounds like a great experience, especially for a kid! The original builder of this line had a fascination and dream much like yours, which is why he started building this in 1951. He used to joke that this little operation outlived many of the actual streetcar lines, and he is right lol.
You do such an excellent and creative job making do with what you have and can find. Your splices, frogs, and method of straightening rail were very interesting. Actually, everything was interesting!
From the video, I understood the mechanism of the overhead wire you made as if you were holding it in your hands. We are supporting your continued success from Japan.！
So happy to get this notification. Never clicked play so fast in my life. Very informative learning about your railroad. Hope to see more videos as time allows for you.
What I find fascinating about this video and this system is that it's not an exact model of the real thing, although in general it works the same way. This line faces all of the same challenges as full-size trolleys, but you've engineered your own solutions to work within the overall system of what you have. It's really neat to see things like oh the shoe comes off so it can't snag, or it rotates so the wire can be pretty far off center. There are two things that might be an issue for running pantographs. One is the places where the wire is so far off center, like the non-powered frogs. You would have to measure pantograph width relative to the rail alignment but you don't want to run out from under the wire. The other is the pull-offs on the curves. They look really shallow now, if they're not high enough above the wire, then when the pan pushes the wire up the edges of the pan can snag the pulloffs. I don't know if the existing frogs would tilt under a pan, but they might be smooth enough underneath that it would glide over it no matter which way it was set. If they're loose enough to tilt it might pick the gap when diverging.
I absolutely love your videos and thanks for sharing your railroad with us! In keeping with your video about catenary, I would love to see some footage of the way the trolley shoe travels on the line. Maybe record some footage with the camera on top of the car pointing at the pole and shoe as it travels around some curves and thru the frogs. Thanks again!
The cable frogs was pretty interesting. I always wondered how theg worked.Thanks for the in depth look at the cantenary system. About how much current does it take to run the trolley at 480 or 240V?
@@CNW4145 is that 240v AC or DC.? You may have said and I missed it. The cable frogs were fascinating. How do you return through the unpowered frog? It seems to reset to a default position so there doesn't appear to be a route through the non default direction. Or is it one way only ? Thanks. I believe yours is the only "amateur private " railway I have ever seen with a central electric supply for traction. Please forgive the usage of amateur, it is not in any way used in a derogatory way, just to separate from the big commercial operations. Very impressed with what you have achieved.
@@Dilbert-o5kYou pull down the shoe and roll through powered by inertia. Big railways and trams also do this in places where there's a gap because of a movable bridge or a gap for different voltages between tram and rail tracks on multi-system lines. Although, for them, it is a bit easier to raise them again ;)
@@HenryLoenwind thanks. I am not familiar with tram layouts. Big trains would normally have the gap (neutral section) on a straight section not at diverging lines which would use the same power . I suppose it is a function of pantograph design . Big trains have wide collectors that can span both diverging wires , so points for catenary aren't required. Interesting.
It is AC power on the catenary, and there is no way to return through the unpowered frog. This is not a problem as its on a loop track so we always operate the same direction through this section. There are several other private electric operations like this that I know of, but we are a class of few for sure!
This is really cool. I'm very proud of what an amazing railway you've built from scrap materials I would personally put the contact wire another foot higher so that when sections become slack they can't accidentally become within arm's reach (looks like some sections have about a foot of slack) but since this was starting its construction in the 50s/60s when safety margins were a suggestion and also because gradually changing all the hangers to be a foot higher would be arduous and the sudden height change wouldn't be liked by the poles, I'm not gonna complain. But I think anybody trying something similar should probably use a 9 foot height rather than eight. For us using universal measures, this is 2.7 metres. Way taller than most people can reach even with longer arms and a tall stature I wanted to make something similar to this for my family's small farm to haul produce to the storage shed, but the gradients would be 10%- very steep for a homemade train even if some real-world adhesion railways can manage it- and I have no idea where you could even get enough rail-like steel cheaply. I doubt Way Out West's method of flat iron on its side would be good enough for the sort of heavier locomotives like yours that I would want to use, and RHS would be hard to bend without a press or cutting-and-welding, and I doubt much suitable steel other than that would be available in local scrapyards where I live sadly. Ah well, we can always dream right?
Yes if I were to start from scratch I probably would put the wire a foot higher, but as you said it would be a task to raise everything now so I've just went with it. 10% would be pretty steep, you might have to build a cog railway! Almost all of this rail was reclaimed from abandoned mines and factories, some of it is even from a depression era project to build beaches in Wisconsin along lake Michigan. Occasionally you can find good deals on rail on discoverlivesteam.com, you might check there from time to time. There have been some really good listings on there in recent years but sadly most of them are on the west coast which is just too far for me to pick up economically.
@@CNW4145 Thanks for the comments! One idea I had was to use car tyres mounted higher, so a raised concrete pad either side could assist, but it felt too... unrealistic? I mean, by the fact it exists and uses steel wheels and steel rails it'd be a train, but doing a "paris metro" for the steep section still felt wrong. One day I might bite the bullet and do it anyway, if my parents are okay with it. I've half-convinced them on the ease of wheeling many railway cars into the shed at once rather than carefully backing a single trailer in a tight space. sadly, I don't think there'd be much scrap rail left where I live (Australia), I imagine it's all taken by private collectors, stockpiled at rail museums, or melted down and turned into somebody's fancy combination-blender-and-microwave-with-wifi haha, but I'll have to keep an eye out!
@@briannem.6787You could always build a guided-bus-type system. Parts for that are easier to come by, and they're cool, too. You'd only need a running surface for just the wheels and a guide border on each side for the mechanical steering.
@@briannem.6787You could always build a guided-bus-type system. Parts for that are easier to come by, and they're cool, too. You'd only need a running surface for just the wheels and a guide border on each side for the mechanical steering.
@@CNW4145You have some amazing videos! Do any other people on the line have YT? The train I'm using is the SBB class Ce 6/8 II freight locomotive Marklin 39566 it runs without the cantenary just fine but it'd probably work better with it. I use marklin K tracks and the current has no trouble on the line unlike american hobby track you can not bend these... With hobby rr having live next to neutral isn't an issue at 20vac on 3 rail system. Thanks for sharing!
1st time viewer. Very COoL. It's got a whole Indiana Jones "vibe" to it. I was sure a large boulder would come hurdling down the track at any time ;8O0 Thank you for the video. Cheers from So.CA.USA 3rd House On the Right
This isn't really a rrvt question as it is more of just a trolleys in general question, I've seen traction railroads that at some point in time had steam locomotives for either back up motive power or just for freight. Wouldn't the carbon and other materials deposited frome the exhaust make the wire less conductive? If so how would've the remedied this? Special stacks, something to clean the wire on the locomotive? I'm just kinda curious how they'd do it.
I have thought about this before as well and I am guessing that the pressure from the shoe would be enough to knock any built up coating off. I do know ice can be a problem but of course it is much thicker.
Great to watch, but I can't see how you insulated the cable from the crossarms. Also, I would've fond it very interesting to see the main substation and the contactors. Thanks for this vid.
For your cross bars, I would try 2 X 6s or 2 X 4s cut on a bias across the face. Leaving the far end around 1 inch. That should give a lot more strength than a 2 X 2.
@@b43xoit With enough tension and alternating the poles left/right, wires instead of cross bars would also work. But that would be even more trouble than it's worth ;) What may be worth it would be to rest the runners on cross wires that are attached to trees on both sides, one side fixed and one side over an idler to a simple weight. Hardware needed: Wire, 2 wire clamps for the ends, an eye-clamp to restrict one runner wire in the sideway direction, something to act as idler, a weight, and 2 insulators. Given that there'd be no real movement in the insulators, hooking two rubber-coated/dipped hooks into each other would work. Or, with fewer parts, one rubber-dipped S-hook to connect the wires.
This is awesome!! Extremely educational, love it. I was curious about the catenary shoe and catenary frogs - at 37:41 I love that the unpowered frog offset from track centre causes the shoe to pull it to the secondary path - but does that mean if you were coming back via that same secondary path you would arrive at a frog remaining for the primary path? It got me thinking about catenary shoes in general, and saw another video where their overhead catenary is accessed via a pantograph instead of a shoe - while the pantograph has the advantage of not needing an active frog at each railswitch, is there a reason (perhaps just authenticity of trolleyways?) that RRVT uses shoes instead of pantographs? Genuine question, I'm not criticising the shoe, I'm expressing that I have a gap in my knowledge =)
You are correct, the non powered frog can only be run through one way. Which is fine because its on a loop track so I really only operate in one direction on this part of the track anyways. I have stuck with the shoes because all the equipment is already equipped with them, and while I have toyed with the idea of building an experimental pantograph I have a feeling that it would cause more problems than its worth. For one, more upward pressure to maintain contact would require the catenary to be tensioned more than it is, and also there would be a bit of experimentation involved to get the pantograph pressure to be equal at varying heights. The second bigger problem is that the contact area on the pantograph is much smaller than it is on the shoe, the shoe is essentially a V shape that contacts the wire on 3 sides, where a pantograph would only contact on the bottom. At times I can pull upwards of 50 amps through the shoe, and it gets quite hot. Reducing the contact area would increase heating, and also increase wear on the wire. If my voltage was higher this would not be a concern at all. Someday I may build one for fun, time will tell.
This is very cool! Also, I had no idea that wood was sufficient enough an insulator for 240v. I wonder if electricity consumption goes up noticeably after a rain when the wood is wet? Thanks for the video, it gives me a lot of inspiration to get off my butt and do an electrified cableway project I've been wanting to get done...
Yes the wood is just fine for such a low voltage, and oddly the quiescent current draw of the wire itself does not change measurable from dry to wet. Granted I do not measure it with a milliamp meter but my incoming power monitor which has a resolution of 1 amp does not show any difference. This fact surprises me as well! I would be willing to bet if the voltage was higher I might see more consumption when things are soaked.
Hi, This kind of technical video is fantastic ! One question : from the stainless steel sheet on the shoe to the base plate of the pole, there isn't a single wire ? Just the loose contact from each piece to the next is enough for 50 amps without noticeable sparks ? Thanks again ! (from a late viewer...)
You are correct, there is no wire jumper there. I did try this a long time ago and the issue was that the wire sometimes snags on things and just caused more problems than it solved. Hard to believe that much current passes through a friction connection like that but it does get warm if you pull that kind of current long enough!
I was interested in your overhead catenary and was curious where you found those insulators. I'm originally from Baltimore and the old streetcar system we had up to the early 1960s used that style insulator. Really enjoy your videos.
what a great education in catenary system! no it was not anything but interesting! why did you chose 240V ? and what is the spacing of your subs? so the tracks are one leg, while the wire the other, do you have jumpers on the track? do you have to polish the top of the rail for better current flow? or do they self clean as you run the train. thanks for the wonderful video ,keep up the great job for both the video and maintaining the trolly system.
Initially 120V was tried but it was found that the rust on the rail made a significant voltage droop thus the decision was made to switch to 240V. Now that we have bigger equipment, bigger trains, and higher speed operation, there is no way that 120V would work today as the currents are simply too high. With 240V we have no need to clean anything, it blasts right through the rust and dirt.
@@CNW4145 You/they even tried 120? That was optimistic. The voltage drop over distance, even in copper wire, is just too high. There's a reason the US has 120V pole transformers next to houses while Europe has 240V transformer stations for whole neighbourhoods.
Yeah supposedly in the very early days (1950's) they tried to run it on 120V. My guess is that they did this as they did not have a transformer on hand to convert the dual 120v incoming power wires to a single 240V feed. Of course it did not work well and eventually ended up acquiring some transformers from a local traction company to try out the 240V which of course is working fine. Honestly I've never understood why we do the power here the way we do, the European way makes so much more sense to me. We probably saw the err in our ways at some point but decided it was too expensive to convert and left it be lol
@@CNW4145 I think it was due to the companies that were producing electricity, you had Edison with DC and general electric doing AC, they were the ones that determined the speciations, does not europe run in some areas at 50 cycles? never did look into the electrical power around the world.
Very interesting, I followed the whole video and noted the details. Your overhead is AC which is unusual but I expect you have onboard transformers for DC motor supply?
How does the non-powered frog work if you go the other direction, i.e. approaching from the split side, along the line the frog is NOT defaulted onto? It seems the shoe would then end up on the outside of the catenary.
That frog is located on a loop track, so we always run the same way around it. You are correct in your assumption that its only a one way frog, but there is no reason to have it be able to go both ways hence why I opted for the simpler mechanical frog vs a powered one.
if i would be CEO of this rail company i would set up a dep. for pole tensioning and one dep. for car fabrication in order to improve quality and service on the rail network
Suggestion, On the shoe - Can you make a conductive cradle with 2 metal wheels (Apr. 2") to roll on the Power Wire? It might give you a smoother voltage supply, slightly increase the distance from shoe frame to wire which would help reduce entanglement with the hanger.
I've used wheels in the past, trouble with them is that they de-wire if there are any kinks in the wire. This is why I use shoes, they are more forgiving.
hang on, how does the unpowered frog move for a pole coming from the other side? (I have forgotten the terminology, but entering from the side of the switch where you have no choice but to merge, rather than from the side where you split into two choices of route) It looks like it would simply dewire as I don't see what would move the frog over to let the shoe in. With the powered frog I presume it doesn't matter because by the time the front axle hits the button the trolley pole will still be far behind- no matter which way you travel. But with the unpowered frog, I cannot see how it would work
That unpowered frog is on the loop track so there is no reason to make it operate in both directions. You are correct, the pole just falls off of it if you try!
Going on flat straight track it will pull about 5 amps from the AC line. Going up the 4% grade on the big hill light unit it will run about 30 amps, and pulling some cars it can go as high as 60 amps up that hill.
that's less than I thought on the flats and more on the hills. You said you have 3 transformers powering the system. are each track section isolated? @@CNW4145
Nope, all of the rail is one continuous run as is the catenary. All of the substation transformers have a similar impedance so they share power somewhat equally without fighting one another. Each station has its own circuit breaker, so if a line fault occurs the substation nearest the fault will trip first, then the others will trip afterward if the fault is severe enough.
It makes me a bit nervous seeing some of the messenger wires just hanging on the wood of the overhead poles, knowing that there's 240VAC running through them.
They are treated with commercial wood treatment and last at least 25 years. If I could get my hands on creosote life would be great, they would live longer than I :)
I have a question. Can I use third rail instead of trolley wire? Would it be cheaper and simpler? What voltage should I use. What about safety? Great tutorial, by the way.
You could, but I would use low voltage DC for a 3rd rail. Maybe 36V DC and this could either run the motor directly or you could use it to just charge an onboard battery. I have a friend who has made a 3rd rail 2 ft gauge line in this fashion, its working well for him. Do not use high voltage AC if you do this, it will be far too dangerous- one fall onto the track and you would be roasted.
It seems unusual to me to use a twisted rope as a contact wire. In most systems I know it's a solid metal profile that's smooth enough to not wear down the contact piece too quickly.
Wow - be careful! Not sure a mains voltage tram line will be allowed by the authorities, to be installed and operated by a private citizen, just like that, many places on earth! Am sure you are knowing what you are doing, just be careful and not f*** up, 240 volt, especially when wet outside, is hazardous to touch. Also - be aware of the albeit rarer, but still dangerous scenario, where a trolley looses contact with ground, either due to rusty old tracks, broken tracks or derailing. If the pantograph or trolley rod, is still up, and even just the lights on the trolley are on, you will have a high voltage potential between ground and the trolley, so even touching it, when it has derailed, if the trolley rod is contacting the overhead wire, could give you a deadly shock. Have as a rule #1 - ALWAYS - ALWAYS cut power, and ideally ground the overhead wire, if ANYTHING happens, like the trolley derails and looses power. And if the power suddenly goes out because of rust or poor contact in the rails, you need to jump off the trolley, not touching the trolley and the ground simultanously. Any passengers or guests, should be instructed of this, too. Am sure you know this, but this is important to know, for anybody else, who could get inspired to make a mains voltage train or trolley line, like this. Seems like a lot of fun, I am a member of the Oslo Tramway museum in Norway, and I experienced this very scenario many years ago, when we were allowed to drive a museum trolley, farther on the unused end segment of the line, than the regular trains did. And it started to spark under the wheels, and the tram halted. Someone with a crowbar and _well insulated gloves_ pressed the crowbar between the wheels and the rail to get contact so the tram could be moved. And we were not allowed on or off the tram again, before it was back on unrusted normal track again. So well - I believe there are a lot of tram people, at places where running museum trams, due to modern regulations or practical considerations or economy, are not allowed to operate anymore 😞 who envy you a tiny bit. :-) You have a small little treasure here, just so you know that! Just be careful with the electricity and have fun! :-D
There is 1 steel bodied car on the line and what you have described is a big problem with it- if the wheels are rusty or the track is rusty then the carbody basically becomes energized. Its a rule that power must be disconnected before exiting this car, its one of the big reasons I prefer wood bodied cars out here as they are much safer in this regard! This line has been operating for over 75 years now, so far all precautions have kept everyone around :)
@@CNW4145 75 years? Wow! Is there a place where we can read about the history of this tramway? I knew about big gauge model railways, not about big gauge electric model railways, now I am curious! 😮… 👍
I have some old photos from the beginning of this operation and an original route map that I will share in a future video. But it was started by a small group of traction enthusiasts, one of which who worked for the North Shore, South Shore, and CTA who provided the engineering the turn it into a prototypical operation. All of the original members have sadly since passed, but I continue to carry the torch so that it may live longer than most interurban operations did in the US. This is what happens when you are just a little bit crazy. But I do have a lot of fun!
As a lineman at the Toronto Transit Commission I'm very impressed with the overhead you have built for your railway. Most of our streetcar line have had the overhead change from a pole to pantograph overhead system now.
That means a lot, thank you! I've considered experimenting with making some pantographs to try out, if I was to convert to pantographs on everything then that would allow me to easily tension the main wire as it does not have to be a continuous cable. Its an idea I've been kicking around for a while now and have some rough plans in mind for a scaled down pantograph device. You might see it in the future!
@@CNW4145 You're welcome. Pantograph overhead is easier to do for curves.
As someone who spent 30+ years of his professional life ''modelling'' tramways in 12'' - 1ft scale I can say that there is still a lot of good in using trolley poles for ULR and People mover applications. Pantographs bring a new set of problems to cope with and their OLE brings a new cascade of problems. I would strongly advise that you stick with what you have got.
@@CNW4145
Noted and thanks for the feedback!
@@CNW4145 You're welcome.
I'm watching this from the UK. Seen a few videos of this tramway but this video had me hooked. Watched the full length and found it amazing. Very rustic looking in construction but it works fine. Thank you for showing how it all goes together. Would love to visit but living across the pond makes it out of reach.
Hey you have lots of cool stuff over there I'd like to see too, been over a few times but not to visit any railways. Someday hopefully! Thanks for checking this out :)
Thanks for this very informative video. I have marveled at your railroad for some years and greatly enjoy your videos. I grew up, quite some time ago, in Chicago and so as a child was in an environment with catenary on many streets that had streetcar lines. Within less than a half mile from where I lived were three car lines and an Illinois Central Suburban line. It was magic as a child to watch the wheels, shoes and pantographs working. The sparks added to the fun. Cheers for your effort and ingenuity!
You are very lucky to have witnessed that time period, it had to be really cool! Thank you for the continued support :)
Sadly, I witnessed the complete abandonment of all the streetcar lines and had the dubious experience of riding on the last streetcar to run in Chicago. My complete fascination with anything that ran on rails and was powered by electricity was kindly nurtured by my father. He worked at Pullman Car Works for eighteen years and took me on all the remaining electric railroads in the Chicago area on many occasions during the 1950s. As that kid, I used to dream about having a railroad very much like the one you have made. Cheers to you! @@CNW4145
That sounds like a great experience, especially for a kid! The original builder of this line had a fascination and dream much like yours, which is why he started building this in 1951. He used to joke that this little operation outlived many of the actual streetcar lines, and he is right lol.
@@CNW4145It's so cool! One day if I can make it up that way I'd sure help with some labor working on the line for a ride! I'm in Newark Ohio!
You do such an excellent and creative job making do with what you have and can find. Your splices, frogs, and method of straightening rail were very interesting. Actually, everything was interesting!
Thank you very much, I appreciate the feedback! Part of what makes it so fun is seeing how much can be done with second hand materials.
From the video, I understood the mechanism of the overhead wire you made as if you were holding it in your hands. We are supporting your continued success from Japan.！
Thanks a lot for the support from afar! I dream of one day riding your trains in Japan :)
WOW! A new video. 39 minutes! This is more in total than for all the videos in all the years.
Thank you very much.👍
Haha you are probably right, its a long one! Thank you for watching :)
interesting information...never realized how all that cantenary worked. Great to see the railroad again too!
Thank you for watching!
Wow, new video!
Great subject matter, almost no one makes videos on the overhead systems in use on electric railways.
So happy to get this notification. Never clicked play so fast in my life. Very informative learning about your railroad. Hope to see more videos as time allows for you.
I have several more that I will be putting up soon :) Thanks for the continued support!
What I find fascinating about this video and this system is that it's not an exact model of the real thing, although in general it works the same way. This line faces all of the same challenges as full-size trolleys, but you've engineered your own solutions to work within the overall system of what you have. It's really neat to see things like oh the shoe comes off so it can't snag, or it rotates so the wire can be pretty far off center. There are two things that might be an issue for running pantographs. One is the places where the wire is so far off center, like the non-powered frogs. You would have to measure pantograph width relative to the rail alignment but you don't want to run out from under the wire. The other is the pull-offs on the curves. They look really shallow now, if they're not high enough above the wire, then when the pan pushes the wire up the edges of the pan can snag the pulloffs. I don't know if the existing frogs would tilt under a pan, but they might be smooth enough underneath that it would glide over it no matter which way it was set. If they're loose enough to tilt it might pick the gap when diverging.
I at first thought it was a model, but then I saw the perspective change and I was like "wow". Amazing looking line!
Thank you!
Glad to see you again and still doing amazing things!
Thanks a lot, I will be putting up some more videos soon!
Glad to see you uploading videos again!
More to come!
Great video ! Good to get fresh news about you, the RRVT line and the work in progress. Thanks and greetings from France !
Thanks for watching, I have more videos coming soon. Cheers!
Wow. Like two parallel railroads... one below and one above. Thanks!
Thanks for the detailed explanations.
You are very welcome!
This is the greatest. Thank you
I absolutely love your videos and thanks for sharing your railroad with us! In keeping with your video about catenary, I would love to see some footage of the way the trolley shoe travels on the line. Maybe record some footage with the camera on top of the car pointing at the pole and shoe as it travels around some curves and thru the frogs. Thanks again!
I'll keep that in mind, I've thought about something like this for maintenance reasons as well.
Been following you for years, find these videos interesting and inspiring
Great video! Please keep them coming!
I have a few more to put up soon, watch for them :)
Thanks and much love from old New Orleans 😎
The cable frogs was pretty interesting. I always wondered how theg worked.Thanks for the in depth look at the cantenary system.
About how much current does it take to run the trolley at 480 or 240V?
At 240V on straight level track it takes less than 5 amps. Going up the 4% grade pulling a couple of loaded cars I will run 40-50 amps.
@@CNW4145 is that 240v AC or DC.? You may have said and I missed it. The cable frogs were fascinating. How do you return through the unpowered frog? It seems to reset to a default position so there doesn't appear to be a route through the non default direction. Or is it one way only ? Thanks.
I believe yours is the only "amateur private " railway I have ever seen with a central electric supply for traction. Please forgive the usage of amateur, it is not in any way used in a derogatory way, just to separate from the big commercial operations. Very impressed with what you have achieved.
@@Dilbert-o5kYou pull down the shoe and roll through powered by inertia. Big railways and trams also do this in places where there's a gap because of a movable bridge or a gap for different voltages between tram and rail tracks on multi-system lines. Although, for them, it is a bit easier to raise them again ;)
@@HenryLoenwind thanks. I am not familiar with tram layouts. Big trains would normally have the gap (neutral section) on a straight section not at diverging lines which would use the same power . I suppose it is a function of pantograph design . Big trains have wide collectors that can span both diverging wires , so points for catenary aren't required. Interesting.
It is AC power on the catenary, and there is no way to return through the unpowered frog. This is not a problem as its on a loop track so we always operate the same direction through this section. There are several other private electric operations like this that I know of, but we are a class of few for sure!
Un vídeo genial. He aprendido muchas cosas con él. Muchas gracias.
Very interesting, now let’s go for a ride.
Very entertaining and fun to watch. Thanks for posting this.
This is really cool. I'm very proud of what an amazing railway you've built from scrap materials
I would personally put the contact wire another foot higher so that when sections become slack they can't accidentally become within arm's reach (looks like some sections have about a foot of slack) but since this was starting its construction in the 50s/60s when safety margins were a suggestion and also because gradually changing all the hangers to be a foot higher would be arduous and the sudden height change wouldn't be liked by the poles, I'm not gonna complain.
But I think anybody trying something similar should probably use a 9 foot height rather than eight. For us using universal measures, this is 2.7 metres. Way taller than most people can reach even with longer arms and a tall stature
I wanted to make something similar to this for my family's small farm to haul produce to the storage shed, but the gradients would be 10%- very steep for a homemade train even if some real-world adhesion railways can manage it- and I have no idea where you could even get enough rail-like steel cheaply. I doubt Way Out West's method of flat iron on its side would be good enough for the sort of heavier locomotives like yours that I would want to use, and RHS would be hard to bend without a press or cutting-and-welding, and I doubt much suitable steel other than that would be available in local scrapyards where I live sadly. Ah well, we can always dream right?
Yes if I were to start from scratch I probably would put the wire a foot higher, but as you said it would be a task to raise everything now so I've just went with it. 10% would be pretty steep, you might have to build a cog railway! Almost all of this rail was reclaimed from abandoned mines and factories, some of it is even from a depression era project to build beaches in Wisconsin along lake Michigan. Occasionally you can find good deals on rail on discoverlivesteam.com, you might check there from time to time. There have been some really good listings on there in recent years but sadly most of them are on the west coast which is just too far for me to pick up economically.
@@CNW4145 Thanks for the comments! One idea I had was to use car tyres mounted higher, so a raised concrete pad either side could assist, but it felt too... unrealistic? I mean, by the fact it exists and uses steel wheels and steel rails it'd be a train, but doing a "paris metro" for the steep section still felt wrong. One day I might bite the bullet and do it anyway, if my parents are okay with it. I've half-convinced them on the ease of wheeling many railway cars into the shed at once rather than carefully backing a single trailer in a tight space.
sadly, I don't think there'd be much scrap rail left where I live (Australia), I imagine it's all taken by private collectors, stockpiled at rail museums, or melted down and turned into somebody's fancy combination-blender-and-microwave-with-wifi haha, but I'll have to keep an eye out!
@@briannem.6787You could always build a guided-bus-type system. Parts for that are easier to come by, and they're cool, too. You'd only need a running surface for just the wheels and a guide border on each side for the mechanical steering.
@@briannem.6787You could always build a guided-bus-type system. Parts for that are easier to come by, and they're cool, too. You'd only need a running surface for just the wheels and a guide border on each side for the mechanical steering.
Very interesting
Woah! I considered setting up catenary for a marklin crocodile HO locomotive and wow this is so cool!
I had a friend that had HO scale trolleys complete with operating catenary, it was pretty cool to run!
@@CNW4145You have some amazing videos! Do any other people on the line have YT? The train I'm using is the SBB class Ce 6/8 II freight locomotive Marklin 39566 it runs without the cantenary just fine but it'd probably work better with it. I use marklin K tracks and the current has no trouble on the line unlike american hobby track you can not bend these... With hobby rr having live next to neutral isn't an issue at 20vac on 3 rail system. Thanks for sharing!
1st time viewer. Very COoL. It's got a whole Indiana Jones "vibe" to it. I was sure a large boulder would come hurdling down the track at any time ;8O0 Thank you for the video. Cheers from So.CA.USA 3rd House On the Right
Sometimes I think the same thing, Short Round could be hiding in the bush out there somewhere lol
@@CNW4145 Ironically, my GF has been worried about the same thing since she started wearing hotpants - Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week :O)
This is great, and you explain your catenary really well
I appreciate the feedback, thanks!
Very cool set up and informative as to how a catenary is designed and works. Thanks!
Fascinating and very resourceful..
This isn't really a rrvt question as it is more of just a trolleys in general question, I've seen traction railroads that at some point in time had steam locomotives for either back up motive power or just for freight. Wouldn't the carbon and other materials deposited frome the exhaust make the wire less conductive? If so how would've the remedied this? Special stacks, something to clean the wire on the locomotive? I'm just kinda curious how they'd do it.
I have thought about this before as well and I am guessing that the pressure from the shoe would be enough to knock any built up coating off. I do know ice can be a problem but of course it is much thicker.
Very interesting. Thanks!
Thank you! I learned a lot.
Great to watch, but I can't see how you insulated the cable from the crossarms. Also, I would've fond it very interesting to see the main substation and the contactors.
Thanks for this vid.
The wires sit on wood arms, so the wood is providing insulation.
For your cross bars, I would try 2 X 6s or 2 X 4s cut on a bias across the face. Leaving the far end around 1 inch. That should give a lot more strength than a 2 X 2.
That is what I am doing going forward, going to make a jig so I can rip 2X4's and see how that works
@CNW4145 On second thought, I would go 2x6 or 2x8. I know i said 2 X 4, but once cut down it probably won't add much strength.
I suppose another way to add strength would be with a spreader and some wires in tension. Maybe that's more trouble than it's worth.
@@b43xoit With enough tension and alternating the poles left/right, wires instead of cross bars would also work. But that would be even more trouble than it's worth ;)
What may be worth it would be to rest the runners on cross wires that are attached to trees on both sides, one side fixed and one side over an idler to a simple weight. Hardware needed: Wire, 2 wire clamps for the ends, an eye-clamp to restrict one runner wire in the sideway direction, something to act as idler, a weight, and 2 insulators. Given that there'd be no real movement in the insulators, hooking two rubber-coated/dipped hooks into each other would work. Or, with fewer parts, one rubber-dipped S-hook to connect the wires.
Great content and very informative.
Thank you!
I guess the nonpowered frog serves a loop at the end of the line and you can only go around it one way.
Yes that is indeed another drawback to the non powered frog and something that I forgot to point out!
Great video !
This is awesome!! Extremely educational, love it.
I was curious about the catenary shoe and catenary frogs - at 37:41 I love that the unpowered frog offset from track centre causes the shoe to pull it to the secondary path - but does that mean if you were coming back via that same secondary path you would arrive at a frog remaining for the primary path?
It got me thinking about catenary shoes in general, and saw another video where their overhead catenary is accessed via a pantograph instead of a shoe - while the pantograph has the advantage of not needing an active frog at each railswitch, is there a reason (perhaps just authenticity of trolleyways?) that RRVT uses shoes instead of pantographs? Genuine question, I'm not criticising the shoe, I'm expressing that I have a gap in my knowledge =)
You are correct, the non powered frog can only be run through one way. Which is fine because its on a loop track so I really only operate in one direction on this part of the track anyways. I have stuck with the shoes because all the equipment is already equipped with them, and while I have toyed with the idea of building an experimental pantograph I have a feeling that it would cause more problems than its worth. For one, more upward pressure to maintain contact would require the catenary to be tensioned more than it is, and also there would be a bit of experimentation involved to get the pantograph pressure to be equal at varying heights. The second bigger problem is that the contact area on the pantograph is much smaller than it is on the shoe, the shoe is essentially a V shape that contacts the wire on 3 sides, where a pantograph would only contact on the bottom. At times I can pull upwards of 50 amps through the shoe, and it gets quite hot. Reducing the contact area would increase heating, and also increase wear on the wire. If my voltage was higher this would not be a concern at all. Someday I may build one for fun, time will tell.
This is very cool! Also, I had no idea that wood was sufficient enough an insulator for 240v. I wonder if electricity consumption goes up noticeably after a rain when the wood is wet?
Thanks for the video, it gives me a lot of inspiration to get off my butt and do an electrified cableway project I've been wanting to get done...
Yes the wood is just fine for such a low voltage, and oddly the quiescent current draw of the wire itself does not change measurable from dry to wet. Granted I do not measure it with a milliamp meter but my incoming power monitor which has a resolution of 1 amp does not show any difference. This fact surprises me as well! I would be willing to bet if the voltage was higher I might see more consumption when things are soaked.
Hi,
This kind of technical video is fantastic !
One question : from the stainless steel sheet on the shoe to the base plate of the pole, there isn't a single wire ?
Just the loose contact from each piece to the next is enough for 50 amps without noticeable sparks ?
Thanks again ! (from a late viewer...)
You are correct, there is no wire jumper there. I did try this a long time ago and the issue was that the wire sometimes snags on things and just caused more problems than it solved. Hard to believe that much current passes through a friction connection like that but it does get warm if you pull that kind of current long enough!
I was interested in your overhead catenary and was curious where you found those insulators. I'm originally from Baltimore and the old streetcar system we had up to the early 1960s used that style insulator. Really enjoy your videos.
Most of them came from the CA&E or the North Shore. Classics!
Fascinating. Do you have a video of a repair after a tree fall? ❤❤❤
I do not but I'm sure its just a matter of time before I can capture one of these events so stay tuned!
what a great education in catenary system! no it was not anything but interesting! why did you chose
240V ? and what is the spacing of your subs? so the tracks are one leg, while the wire the other, do you
have jumpers on the track? do you have to polish the top of the rail for better current flow? or do they
self clean as you run the train. thanks for the wonderful video ,keep up the great job for both the video
and maintaining the trolly system.
Initially 120V was tried but it was found that the rust on the rail made a significant voltage droop thus the decision was made to switch to 240V. Now that we have bigger equipment, bigger trains, and higher speed operation, there is no way that 120V would work today as the currents are simply too high. With 240V we have no need to clean anything, it blasts right through the rust and dirt.
@@CNW4145 You/they even tried 120? That was optimistic. The voltage drop over distance, even in copper wire, is just too high. There's a reason the US has 120V pole transformers next to houses while Europe has 240V transformer stations for whole neighbourhoods.
Yeah supposedly in the very early days (1950's) they tried to run it on 120V. My guess is that they did this as they did not have a transformer on hand to convert the dual 120v incoming power wires to a single 240V feed. Of course it did not work well and eventually ended up acquiring some transformers from a local traction company to try out the 240V which of course is working fine. Honestly I've never understood why we do the power here the way we do, the European way makes so much more sense to me. We probably saw the err in our ways at some point but decided it was too expensive to convert and left it be lol
@@CNW4145
I think it was due to the companies that were producing electricity, you had Edison with DC
and general electric doing AC, they were the ones that determined the speciations, does not
europe run in some areas at 50 cycles? never did look into the electrical power around the world.
Very interesting, I followed the whole video and noted the details. Your overhead is AC which is unusual but I expect you have onboard transformers for DC motor supply?
Yes that is correct
How does the non-powered frog work if you go the other direction, i.e. approaching from the split side, along the line the frog is NOT defaulted onto? It seems the shoe would then end up on the outside of the catenary.
That frog is located on a loop track, so we always run the same way around it. You are correct in your assumption that its only a one way frog, but there is no reason to have it be able to go both ways hence why I opted for the simpler mechanical frog vs a powered one.
if i would be CEO of this rail company i would set up a dep. for pole tensioning and one dep. for car fabrication in order to improve quality and service on the rail network
Suggestion, On the shoe - Can you make a conductive cradle with 2 metal wheels (Apr. 2") to roll on the Power Wire? It might give you a smoother voltage supply, slightly increase the distance from shoe frame to wire which would help reduce entanglement with the hanger.
I've used wheels in the past, trouble with them is that they de-wire if there are any kinks in the wire. This is why I use shoes, they are more forgiving.
Very informative
Ура, новое видео! :)
Didn't go for the third rail method?
Nah, that would require a bunch of rail that I dont have
hang on, how does the unpowered frog move for a pole coming from the other side? (I have forgotten the terminology, but entering from the side of the switch where you have no choice but to merge, rather than from the side where you split into two choices of route)
It looks like it would simply dewire as I don't see what would move the frog over to let the shoe in. With the powered frog I presume it doesn't matter because by the time the front axle hits the button the trolley pole will still be far behind- no matter which way you travel. But with the unpowered frog, I cannot see how it would work
I am guessing that the loop is one-way track or something.
You are correct, you can only go through it one way, but it is fine because this is at the loop track so we only operate in one direction here.
Triangular wire suspension kinda New Haven used in the first part of last century.
For the unpowered trolly frog, how does it work going backwards? Wouldn't the pole just fall off the end? or is the unpowered one unidirectional?
That unpowered frog is on the loop track so there is no reason to make it operate in both directions. You are correct, the pole just falls off of it if you try!
31:50 the Chicago north shore and Milwaukee??
That the sloppyest wiring I have ever seen. But I guess it works. What keeps the power from shorting out through the wood supports?
The insulation resistance of the wood. For 240V you need less than an inch of wood.
I'm curious how many max amps does you loco pull?
Going on flat straight track it will pull about 5 amps from the AC line. Going up the 4% grade on the big hill light unit it will run about 30 amps, and pulling some cars it can go as high as 60 amps up that hill.
that's less than I thought on the flats and more on the hills. You said you have 3 transformers powering the system. are each track section isolated? @@CNW4145
Nope, all of the rail is one continuous run as is the catenary. All of the substation transformers have a similar impedance so they share power somewhat equally without fighting one another. Each station has its own circuit breaker, so if a line fault occurs the substation nearest the fault will trip first, then the others will trip afterward if the fault is severe enough.
It makes me a bit nervous seeing some of the messenger wires just hanging on the wood of the overhead poles, knowing that there's 240VAC running through them.
Well done. But, I noticed that your new ties are not coated with creosote. They would last longer.
They are treated with commercial wood treatment and last at least 25 years. If I could get my hands on creosote life would be great, they would live longer than I :)
I have a question. Can I use third rail instead of trolley wire? Would it be cheaper and simpler? What voltage should I use. What about safety? Great tutorial, by the way.
You could, but I would use low voltage DC for a 3rd rail. Maybe 36V DC and this could either run the motor directly or you could use it to just charge an onboard battery. I have a friend who has made a 3rd rail 2 ft gauge line in this fashion, its working well for him. Do not use high voltage AC if you do this, it will be far too dangerous- one fall onto the track and you would be roasted.
Thank you very much.
It seems unusual to me to use a twisted rope as a contact wire. In most systems I know it's a solid metal profile that's smooth enough to not wear down the contact piece too quickly.
That would be ideal but its very expensive. This works quite fine though :)
great !
BISOUS BONJOUR DE LA FRANCE BIENVENUE JADORE CONTINUER MERCI
interestesting love to see a vid on voltage of the line of curse the power is off to do that vid sow he can tuch it ad not get roseted
What’s the gradient?
The ruling grade on the line is a bit over 4%
grain on edge i think is stronger.
👍
Wow - be careful!
Not sure a mains voltage tram line will be allowed by the authorities, to be installed and operated by a private citizen, just like that, many places on earth!
Am sure you are knowing what you are doing, just be careful and not f*** up, 240 volt, especially when wet outside, is hazardous to touch.
Also - be aware of the albeit rarer, but still dangerous scenario, where a trolley looses contact with ground, either due to rusty old tracks, broken tracks or derailing.
If the pantograph or trolley rod, is still up, and even just the lights on the trolley are on, you will have a high voltage potential between ground and the trolley, so even touching it, when it has derailed, if the trolley rod is contacting the overhead wire, could give you a deadly shock.
Have as a rule #1 - ALWAYS - ALWAYS cut power, and ideally ground the overhead wire, if ANYTHING happens, like the trolley derails and looses power. And if the power suddenly goes out because of rust or poor contact in the rails, you need to jump off the trolley, not touching the trolley and the ground simultanously. Any passengers or guests, should be instructed of this, too.
Am sure you know this, but this is important to know, for anybody else, who could get inspired to make a mains voltage train or trolley line, like this. Seems like a lot of fun, I am a member of the Oslo Tramway museum in Norway, and I experienced this very scenario many years ago, when we were allowed to drive a museum trolley, farther on the unused end segment of the line, than the regular trains did.
And it started to spark under the wheels, and the tram halted. Someone with a crowbar and _well insulated gloves_ pressed the crowbar between the wheels and the rail to get contact so the tram could be moved. And we were not allowed on or off the tram again, before it was back on unrusted normal track again.
So well - I believe there are a lot of tram people, at places where running museum trams, due to modern regulations or practical considerations or economy, are not allowed to operate anymore 😞 who envy you a tiny bit. :-) You have a small little treasure here, just so you know that! Just be careful with the electricity and have fun! :-D
There is 1 steel bodied car on the line and what you have described is a big problem with it- if the wheels are rusty or the track is rusty then the carbody basically becomes energized. Its a rule that power must be disconnected before exiting this car, its one of the big reasons I prefer wood bodied cars out here as they are much safer in this regard! This line has been operating for over 75 years now, so far all precautions have kept everyone around :)
@@CNW4145 75 years? Wow! Is there a place where we can read about the history of this tramway? I knew about big gauge model railways, not about big gauge electric model railways, now I am curious! 😮… 👍
I have some old photos from the beginning of this operation and an original route map that I will share in a future video. But it was started by a small group of traction enthusiasts, one of which who worked for the North Shore, South Shore, and CTA who provided the engineering the turn it into a prototypical operation. All of the original members have sadly since passed, but I continue to carry the torch so that it may live longer than most interurban operations did in the US. This is what happens when you are just a little bit crazy. But I do have a lot of fun!
I take it the power was isolated when you were hands on with the cable. As i know 240v ac will give you a belt....😊
As long as you are insulated from ground you can touch the cable when hot, you do not feel a thing.
The cricket is much louder than the voice.
You are right, they have quite the voice on them!
Did you say "step down to 240?" LOL
A guy wire.
Surprised you are allowed to have mains voltage bare wire so low. Here in the UK some nice gentlemen in hi-viz would probablh cart you off to jail !
While I love visiting the UK very much, things like this are the reason I do not live there lol
@CNW4145 Yes other countries have a attitude that if you touch it, serves you right ! Natural selection at work. Darwin would be proud. ⚡️⚡️⚡️
Would penetrox liquid stop the chemical reaction between your hangers and your actual main cable
It probably would, but the rain would wash it away in no time.
Very interesting
👍