What Is Projective Identification? | OTTO KERNBERG
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
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Otto Kernberg, a pioneer in the field of severe personality disorders and Borderline in particular (and creator of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy), discusses Borderline Personality Disorder from the viewpoint of clinician / ridiculously experienced expert.
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Yup, in layman's terms - it's when someone projects an aspect of their own personality onto the other, and does it with such conviction that they engineer in the other whichever traits they were projecting onto them in the first place.
A basic example would be feeling resentful towards another person, then calling them a 'bitter person' until the individual (who isn't inherently bitter at all) becomes bitter in the process of receiving this unfair treatment.
Your example would be more of a normal projection. Projective identification is much more indirect. In projective identification, the person would put you into a situation where you experience being bitter. And then try to control you in a way that keeps you in that position. They would also then empathise with you, that they also know how it feels to be bitter.
@@Nobody-Nowhere So basically...
1. Sam the sociopath feels depressed
2. Sam the sociopath knows how it feels in himself
3. Sam the sociopath creates an environment where Andrews the Asperger is depressed
4. Sam the sociopath picks up on the fact that Andrews the Asperger is depressed
5. Sam the sociopath expresses sympathies because he's been there too
6. Sam the sociopath tries to fix Andrews the Asperger's depression through force
7. Andrews the Asperger is resistant because he is depressed by Sam the sociopath's hand
8. The cycle of abuse continues?
@@AlastorTheNPDemon Projective identification is not necessarily abusive. I often catch myself doing it when I can't say no to people due to projecting onto them my own suppressed fear of rejection.
@@wavy6470So you cant say no because you think they will feel exactly as you. I feel the same way. But that is simple projection. A projective identification response of this fear of abandonment would be create a situation where the other feels this same fear, probably by cheating or being inconsistent if it was a relationship. That would be manipulative and toxic.
@@Nobody-Nowherewow. Hit the nail on the ehsd
Explained perfectly. He gets an A+ in my book. It’s unreal & traumatic to experience particularly if its your own family doing it consistently from childhood till you’re in your 50’s! It’s so exhausting & you’ve gotta get away from the perpetrators. They’ll have you believing & others agreeing you flew the planes into the WTC & have them believing it too. It’s a powerful weapon of all manipulators. Gaslighting is the other.
Been through it, too.
If it is a family member that is driving the process, a family member you start to trust early in life, it can feel quite traumatic many decades later to learn that many of the bad experiences you were manipulated to experience as a child or teenager were completely unnecessary and that it has taxed your development as a person into adulthood.
You must have met my mother. All details are correct including the part about the WTC ...... Lol
@@accordionSWEWORD👍
Example : Because I cheated on you, I can’t trust you and need to monitor your behavior.
Thanks I find this helpful ❤
"im guilty of x and YOU take the blame for it now"
Been there.
Wow, good explanation 😮
I've learnt a lot of psychoanalytics, while being with a person like that for 5 years... constantly cheated on, constantly getting the blame
Great explanation. My father always promoted envy and jealousy among his daughters and son...yes, it is very primitive but it works. It's pure devastation.
Thank-you, Papa Otto.
Amazing conceptual precision. Astonishing clearity. Kernberg is a wonderful teacher and theorist.
Thanks very much for this. I have come across the term many times but this is the clearest and the best description I've encountered. The induction and control elements are what really swung it for me. And the little smile at the end as if to say "good trick isn't it".
Incredible clarity and depth. Thank you
Firstly, projective-identification here is the defence of projective-identification as opposed to empathy or sympathy which is healthy projective-identification. The defence may be better named evacuative-identification with similar defences being adhesive-identification and extractive-introjection which all involve a major confusion in the relationship based on the defenders at least temporary state of narcissism/psychosis where in the defender is simply relating to themselves or wished-for versions of themselves, while exerting such conviction as to induct you into a relational dance beyond your contribution where you are at least at some point left confused or angry about the situation. Some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy takes place, wether simply due to the defenders selective inattention or actually because of the success of the role induction.
But as we all relate mentally, we can actually experience the forceful projection and denial of our separate self as a set of mental states and feelings being evoked in the conversation. It is the force and conviction and the intent (to control the intolerable within me by relating to it in you) that makes it the defence of projective-identification.
Man your knowledge is so valuable yet you've got no videos about this on your channel , why !!! ?
Spot on.
‘I don’t want these aspects of my experience, here you have them’.
So many pieces to this pie but absolutely spot on.
Very concise...
Exceptional
I notice that I do this but what I project in some way is dislike towards myself, I’m so awkward with people when I didn’t used to be and this happens with almost everyone in around. I know it’s me because there’s no way everyone I meet is a jerk, I just want to connect with people genuinely like I used to without thinking everyone dislikes me and making it a self fulfilling prophecy.
Lamb of God - Blacken the Cursed Sun
''I will kill this part of myself that I hate and I see in you''
Zooming in that close is creeping me out.
I always hear this description of projectile identification but I really think this phenomenon should not be listed as a defense mechanism. It surely is a phenomenon observed but it demands a suitable object ( other person) to act the identity projected. Defense mechanisms are mechanisms of the subject ( the "patiend") and are protecting the ego from the it. So I prefer the Kleinian description of Projectile Identification were the "patiend" projects an identity to the object and then they identify with it. I think these are 2 different phenomena and another name should be used for what here Kernberg describes.
PHRASAL PRACTCE : attributing to other the intolerable traits in ourselves. attributing to others the intolerable traits in ourselves. attributing to others the intolerable traits in ourselves.
I dont understand how empathy fits in?
He uses the term in a special way.
Does the person projecting have to be in a position of power over the person identifying with projection?
Keep in mind that this is the two-body psychology conception of projective identification, a la Wilfred Bion.
When the Kleinians speak of projective identification, this is usually as part of a one-body psychology, and they tend to use the term much more broadly than does Kernberg.
Is it always the disowned negative parts of the Self? What about projecting your positive attributes into another and unable to see them in oneself-?
What defines projection as a defense mechanism and not a essential part of meaning and sense making apparatus which we all employ to some degree? I suppose it is a question of how frequently this is employed in an individual that precludes them from truly accepting an intergrated assesment of themselves and the other ( ?) . So is it pathology when in combination of a cognitive distortion like “ splitting”?
Do you mean like - oh yes, you get that from me. Anything from a physical or personality trait - that they take that? I’m interested too. Or you didn’t get that from me or my side of the family for more negative.
I think you are confusing “Projection identification” with simple “projection.”
I think I see what you’re asking. Maybe this is a pretty common real world example of your question?
Two people are dating and one of them (Person B) develops limerance for another third party outside the relationship (Person C). Person B has a history of codependency, so this is fairly common as they are chronically running a deficit of self-love.
Person B starts to project all of the wonderful qualities they want to have for themselves onto Person C, but doesn’t want to hurt Person A by their actions. To resolve this dilemma, Person B subconsciously projects onto Person A all of the negative feelings about their own patterns coming to the surface; thereby justifying to themselves the move toward their “higher self” - Person C.
Person A is devastated at the sudden collapsing of everything they thought they understood and begins to act out in frustration; in the process, embodying the negative projections of Person B. Boom. Projective Identification.
Something like that?
@@waynepolo6193 I want to thank you, for giving this example because it really helped me understand and relate to the topic through a real life scenario. Thanks again, good explanation ❤️.
very good Mr Polo. I never reacted to her splitting and or her last projection identification. So she withdrew to find other Person C to do it in hopes grass is greener… yet she keeps doing it over and over. its like dealing with two people “dont abandons
me , you are trying to control me” Theres no win win in these relationships
Please explain how it is projective identification when there is no assumption and another person initially is rude and disrespectful? Stop trying to gaslight me.
Anybody pls explain... thks
I'll try. If I am feeling inadequate I will be full of feelings I don't like. And I will want rid of these feelings. One way to relief myself of these feelings is to give another person these feelings in the hope I shall find relief. I project the feelings of inadequacy into the other person by a process of projective identification. I will behave in a such a way that the result is the other person feels inadequate (classic bully tactics). From the other person's perspective, before the interaction with me, they might feel fine about themselves, the feelings of inadequacy might be very alien to them - they have been given to them from the person who actually has feelings of inadequacy. Understanding the mechanism of projective identification means a therapist can monitor her feelings with the patient. If they therapist begins to feel unfamiliar feelings, she can use this to understand better what the patient is trying to achieve / unconsciously communicate to her.
An example: you are a student and it's the night before an exam. You feel very anxious about the exam because you're very unprepared. The anxious feelings are intolerable - you want relief from them. So, using projective identification, you unconsciously set up a situation where your room mate is now feelings anxious and unprepared, whereas before talking to you, they felt fine about it. You might begin to talk about the exam in a foreboding way to them. Seeing the other person in this state of distress brings you relief - you've projected your state of mind into them.
The bit I'm not sure about in this video is the empathy bit. Hope this helps.
@@heyya99 i sometimes do it as well, when i don't experience empathy for something that i am going through,but only in my family. It can envoke empathy in others,as long as you don't go overboard with it, if you retain a fair amount of empathy for the one you are projecting onto.. When it's your boss or a colleague doing it to you in the workplace, that's usually heavy breach of personal boundaries and unprofessional behaviour that can ,if it happens often, be considered as mobing, and also bullying when it's done by personality disordered individuals in your private circle which,as we all know, lack boundaries themselves and breach boundaries of others eagerly.
My narc sister called me evil which is is talking about herself. She can’t own it so she projects on to me. She also hates men but tells people it’s me.
Completely nutso behavior
Yes it is very terrible. Especially if you are exposed to the behavior when you are a child. You can, over time, end up with some terrible self esteem problems that have no anchoring in reality.
Say what??
Interesting... Almost in the same breath, he calls Projective Identification one of the "primitive defensive operations", "a primitive form of projection" and... "a complex mechanism that has projection, empathy with what is projected, induction and effort at control".
Maybe be primitive he’s referring to it being more infantile?
@@Linalinalane the first that forms
And? None of those things are mutually exclusive. I think you might be stuck on an incorrect definition of "primitive." It doesn't mean "simple," it means "early."
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I always want to emphasise that there is IDENTIFICATION in this concept of projective identification. If you do not know what your tendencies are, you are likely to identify with something that is projected onto you, especially if youre in a relationship with this person, but not only. so: do not identify and if you do, go to therapy to check that out.