The Biggest Marathon Training Mistake - Do This Instead
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- I dive into the art and science of setting a realistic marathon goal time and the critical aspects of marathon training that many runners overlook. By shifting focus from arbitrary finish times to performance-based goals, you can take control of your marathon training and race day. Let's unravel the biggest marathon training mistakes and how to fix them with a scientific approach.
🔑 Key Steps for Effective Marathon Training:
Setting Realistic Goals: Avoid choosing arbitrary finish times. Focus on performance, not just the clock.
Understanding Physiological Demands: Recognize the importance of aerobic capacity, anaerobic threshold, and muscular conditioning in marathon running.
Long Run Mistakes to Avoid:
• Running too hard for aerobic capacity development.
• Making your long runs too lengthy for marathon pace efforts.
• Repeating these errors in consecutive runs.
• Personalized Training Plans: Implement a plan tailored to your threshold and training zones.
Threshold and Training Zones:
Conduct a 30min Time Trial (TT) or use recent race data.
Calculate threshold using the last 20min of your TT or 10km race.
Use my calculators to determine your specific zones.
drwilloconnor.com/running-tra...
Marathon Training Phases:
Base Phase (more than 12 weeks out): Focus on Zone 2 heart rate for long runs, aiming for 2 - 2:30 hours.
Build Phase (12-8 weeks out): Introduce Zone 3 efforts in long runs, combining heart rate and pace/power metrics.
Final Phase (8 weeks out): Progressive runs to establish marathon pace/power, culminating in a 20 mile (32km) run 3 weeks before the race.
General Build-Up Plan: Follow a structured plan for gradual improvement and pace consistency.
Threshold and Zones 'How-To' Guide: drwilloconnor.com/training-zo...
LINKS
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• Training Plans: drwilloconnor.com/
• Training Blog: runningheadfirst.substack.com/
• Podcast: podcasts.justcast.com/running...
• Strava: / strava
• Instagram: / drwilloconnor
#marathon #running #runner - Спорт
Really happy to have found your channel! Saved this video to come back for when I run my first marathon!
Welcome aboard!
Outstanding video!! The way in which you simplified this was pure genius
I appreciate that!
At 60, I just ran 3:08:22 at California International Marathon. 17' PR/PB, 41" BQ. 5th marathon. Using power seems to take away all the issues with HR (stress, hills, wind, heat, dehydration, etc) for me. I use JD vDOT to estimate my predicted finish times along with my Stryd power predictions. JD vDOT had me at 3:09:55 and Stryd 3:11:23. Pretty accurate. Good info!
Would you recommend Stryd? I currently have a Garmin FR 955 with a chest strap, aiming for a sub 3:30 second marathon in March. My Garmin currently predicts my finish time to be around 3:17 - which I find pretty generous. I'm impressed by how accurate your predictions are! (The Garmin + chest strap also measure power, but I don't usually look at that right now)
@@nicolasdecoster82 I do recommend Stryd. Other power meters are still inferior. One caveat, only pay for Stryd IF you really are going to train by power. Otherwise its just an expensive toy that gives you more data that you may not really use.
I'm all for Stryd, too, but after using Coros quite a bit, I find their running power close to Stryd's. Unfortunately, they've pushed it to the side for their "effort pace" measurement, which is pretty much just running power converted to pace.
@@drwilloconnor Frequently windy down here in North FL/South GA. Just ran a 12 mile run and the 6 out was into a solid 8-10mph wind with gusts. Coros (or others) can't account for that and adjust your power, Stryd does.
@@jimoconnor8597 actually my FR955 has wind adjusted when using power settimg which I see the results in my last marathon but I've since converted to Stryd over the last month or so
Wish I had found this before!
I’m currently training for my first marathon. I’ve struggled with injury and illness and now 8 weeks to go I have no clue what pace/time I should be targeting.
Great advice!
Fantastic video!!!
Thank you very much!
Awesome mate - appreciate the grind this content takes. Good to see you're getting traction.
A fellow Running YT-er
Connor.
Those three 2.5hr runs with 30mins marathon effort sound brutal that far out… I’m doing it 😂😂
🤜🤛
I have read previously that LT1 is an effort that a well trained (what that means exactly I don't know) can sustain for about 3-4 hours. So this is a marathon pace for quite a lot of us. If I understand the zones presented in this video correctly, zone 3 is above LT1. I have also talked with sports doctors during a VO2Max test - that the best approach (while certainly not the only one) is to "push" zones from bellow - meaning run bellow the threshold you want to improve (my guess is that you can do more volume that way close to the threshold you want to improve).
So, with all the above. I seems to me, that if you are a 3-4 hour marathoner, the best sessions for you are the long zone2 sessions close to the LT1 with some steady longer Zone3 (so steady state instead of. threshold) efforts for training stimulus, not a lot of zone 3 work which will be above marathon effort. Again, this is for up to 3 hour marathoner. Things change when you are faster - less time on feet, can run on higher intensity.
Would love to hear other opinions around this :)
As a trail runner I find it hilarious when road runners say they struggle to stay in zone 2 on long runs, the truth is they don’t want to look slow on Strava, if I can stay in zone 2 on a 5-6 hour trail run with 1500m of vert I’m pretty sure anyone can stay in zone 2 on a road, undulating or not.
I also do my marathon pace medium long run the day before my long trail, the session will be 15 minutes warm up followed by 3x30min at MP with 3 minutes easy between reps, I’ll then cool down for 10 minutes.
I started running at the beginning of 2022, so it’s taken me a while to build up to this volume but the key was staying well within zone 2 and not trying to do my easy runs at the top of zone 2’s limits.
Exactly this. It's just ego. But that mindset hurts in the long run, better to walk to get your HR back into zone 2 than to keep pushing in zone 3-4...
I bet you ran with a couple of litres of water and some food too. When I started ultra trail running and using a hydration vest, I was amazed at why I never took water on my long marathon runs. Too heavy, too slow 🫣🤦♂️
@@drwilloconnor I’ll start the run with 2.5lt on me and either circle back to my car or use a service station to fill back up my water, at this point I’ll also down a 250ml coke 👌🏼
As for long road I’ll carry a 250ml flask in my naked belt and run a route that has bubblers or places I can purchase water, I do drink a lot less during road runs and my 2hr tempo session is my longest road run I do now and find 500ml is plenty as normally I won’t take water on runs under 90 minutes unless the temperature is high 👍🏼
few questions about the training plan
for the final phase @6:27 do we also take (3-5 mins recovery) for the 4x5 kms or only the 3x8 kms. that part is a bit unclear
in the build phase, when adding the 30 mins zone 3, we should target running at marathon pace while trying to make the heart rate not going above 90% at the end correct? simulating the HR we usually end a marathon with
Hi Will, thanks for the video -really comprehensive content that's easy for an amateur like myself to follow...quick question: do you recommend zone 3/MP effort for all the interval blocks during the long runs in the build phase? I am also doing at least one higher intensity run mid-week currently (hills or speed intervals such as yasso 800) and just a bit worried about burn-out or injury. Appreciate any feedback/thoughts. Cheers, Jomi.
Hey Jomi, It depends on what level of fitness you came into the build phase with. Quite often, I'll alternate weeks in the build phase where one week the long run has Z2/MP efforts, and the other week it's a general Z2. That might be a good option for you if you're worried about over doing it.
Thanks@@drwilloconnor , that's helpful advice.
Thanks for all the knowledge you share on YT and on your podcasts. I put my average HR of the last 20 min of a recent 10k into your hr zones and it gives me up to 213 HR for zone 7? How do I use this? My max is 191
I got the same so ignored the last zones
Yes, I've realised that the top end is set too high. While 120% makes sense on paper, it doesn't work in reality when your threshold is around 180 bpm.
What about if my last 20 mins from a 10k were in hot weather and 180hr average? It puts my zones very high. Is this accurate?
I don't run but cycle. In my book threshold is up to 1hr, zone 3 up to 2 hours and zone 2 is 2-4 hours. So unless you are a world class athlete there is no way to run a marathon in zone 3 over the full distance.
It depends on individual differences and training status and also which sport you practice. I take it that you also base your zones on percentages of LTHR? I'm using % of LTHR as proposed by the 80/20 training method. My Z2 is 80-89% of LTHR, Z3 is 89-95% of LTHR and Z4 is 95-100% of LTHR. In absolute numbers, that's 137-152, 152-162, 162-171.
I run most of my easy runs in Z2 and that I can hold for many hours. I raced a 50k mostly in Z3, avg 159, which I finished under 5 hours so I can hold Z3 for up to 5 hours when fully trained. In my recent marathon PB, I ran a 166 on avg, only 5 bpm below my LTHR, so I mostly ran in Z4. I didn't focus purely on HR there, rather on keeping power steady around 180 W, not overshooting on the hills even if the pace went down. As a result, I ran almost even halves, 2 seconds difference between the first and the second. The marathon was twice a half marathon course so both halves are comparable. With a marathon PB of 3:29:36, I'm nowhere near world class, just an ambitious hobby athlete who can run 3 hours in Z4. I have very narrow HR bands for races, marathon and half both fall into the same zone. My recent half PB was run at an avg of 170 so only 4 bpm higher than the marathon, at the top end of Z4. In 7-10k races, I don't get much higher than that, mostly low 170s, hovering there around my threshold, starting below and finishing a couple of beats above. This is where power helps me to get a clearer picture as HR falls all into one zone. 178 W for the marathon, 193 W for the half, as measured with Stryd.
This said, I also participated in a bike marathon in the Alps and on the bike, I would agree with what you said. Out of the 7 hours I was out there, I had 1:54 hours in Z4 (not consecutively, on two separate climbs), 2:02 hours in Z3 and the rest, almost 3 hours together, in Z2 and Z1, those mostly going downhill to recover. On the bike, I know that I can maintain roughly an hour in Z4 on a climb, then I need to take it easy, when in the marathon, I'm nearly 3 hours there and can even push into Z5 above LT at the end - absolutely not the case on the bike.
Z3 for general riding on the flat or a gentle slope is fine when I have some downhills in between to recover. I don't fully understand why that is the case, when I have absolutely no problem maintaining 5 hours of Z3 in a run. Maybe it's lack of specific training, I run a lot more than I cycle so lack of volume on the bike may limit me there more than on the run where I spend most of my training.
Also, running is weight-bearing while cycling is not and it engages more muscles than cycling. So my hypothesis would be that running drives your HR up higher because more muscles are demanding oxygen delivery while on the bike, fewer muscles are working but they are working relatively hard by their standards. Lower cardiovascular strain but high load on the muscles. It's not the cardiovascular system that is limiting you but the work that the muscles have to do. I just cannot keep up Z4 intensity for more than an hour because of muscular fatigue in that specific muscle group even though in running, I can do that because the work is shared by more muscles. I hope I'm making sense here. If anyone has better answers to that, please let me know below.
Tried the session ran zone 2 2 hours 30 mins tried my goal marathon pace and went to 173 bpm upper zone 3 is 169 not sure whether or not to call off the sun 3:30 attempt 12 weeks out
3:26:18 vs 3:36 last year main difference was the structured long runs.
On the 3rd week of the build phase you said the long run day should be a "down" week. Do you mean a rest day or just a zone 2 long run? Thanks for the great info!
Z2 Long Run, but I keep the option to massively reduce the duration (i.e. 1hr instead of 2hrs) or not run at all if you're tired. The goal of a down/recovery week is adaptation, not stimulation.
Is the base phase length like Lydiard's as long as possible?
That's a great video, but I am not sure about the zone 2 (I would love to hear Your opinion!). For the record, I use Garmin Forerunner 255 with HRM tri. I ran my first marathon four months ago in 3h 44min and I'm 21 years old.
Why am I not sure about running long runs in zone two is that I literally can't run in zone two - 2-3km max! For me, very chill and easy runs are in the third zone. I can run in zone three very long without getting tired. What's more, You were talking about running the marathon in zone 3, I ran my marathon in zone 4 (71%) and even zone 5 at the end (28%) and I really wasn't that tired at the end! My legs were fatigued but I felt really good.
These were my zones created by Garmin back in the day of the marathon:
Z5 >184
Z4 163 - 183
Z3 143 - 162
Z2 122 - 142
Z1 102 - 121
I have a quite high HR at my age (I think), maximum noted by Garmin occured at 3km race month ago and it was 218 with an average of 201.
I write about it because I am curious about Your opinion, as I am an amateur
edit: My next goal is to run 3h 30min in april, as I am able to hold 5:05 +- 5s pace during 12km intervals of zone 4 and I have still 14 weeks
if 218 is truely your HRmax, which would be quite insane, these zones indeed don´t fit you at all; I´d say you can easily go until 155 or even 160 for Z2
your zones dont fit you at all make sure to really get those zones right and dont listen to garmin
@@gaiusvelleius The measurement makes sense (it raises from normal to 197 after 1km, to 209 after two and it peaks at the finish), so I don't suspect it of bugging. Maybe I should recalculate them properly with the 30min time trial
@@giro5875 sounds conherent. So then screw these Garmin numbers and go easy up to 160
@@gaiusvelleius at the end that is exactly what i do, my easy runs are up to 160 (because to hold 142 I think that I would have to walk once in a while).
Garmin says that it's in the 3rd, but having all of that in mind I will now know, that this is the 2nd zone. And now I can understand all of the people talking about the 2nd zone, as before I was like - 'man, how?? Am I supposed to not move? haha'
Thanks guys
My long runs are not on a dead flat piece of road. It undulates a lot so to maintain an avg pace at the end of my LR is a lot more difficult.
I'm in the same boat. Imo it has worked wonders for me. Because most of my marathons are pretty flat compared to my training sessions.
What I do, is not stress to much about the hr towards the end of the long run, especially if I'm doing Mara pace. It's going to spike up and down due to hills. But as long as you can control hr and bring it back down once over the hills I fond it still works. As long as at the end of the session is within the desired zones. Work out is complete
That's why power is good is what Dr Will would say. You have to slow on hills and keep HR in control at least the 1st HR or so. Depends on your marathon finish time too
As @alanshrimpton6787 mentioned, you should check out running power. Used alongside HR, it can seriously improve the accuracy of your training if you live in a hilly area.
@@drwilloconnor Similar problem here on the Gold Coast. Heat and humidity through the roof at this time of the year, irrespective of how early I get out of bed. Along with cardiac drift, by the time I am even an hour into my 2-2.5hr zone 2 run, my heart rate's moving into the 150s/160s. It's a constant battle to keep it anything close to what I know my zone 2 to be (130-142ish).
I live in a mountain city in Norway... I feel ya :)
So, if you’re able to do 7:20/mile pace for a 20 mile run with last few miles at 7:15 pace, would you say that it’s realistic to have 7:15 pace as your goal race pace (avg. pace for the entire 20 miles ended up being 7:21 per mile)? Or could potential be even faster pace?
I don’t want to steer you wrong but you should be able to go even faster especially after a good taper. I thought my pace for my last race was going to be 8 mins I did 20 miles at 8 mins 3 weeks out in last big long run and it killed me. I ran that marathon at average 7:36 pace. After a taper the game is changed.
Anecdotally, you 'should' be fine, but I'd suggest watching the video I reference at the end because I show you how to use your HR to guide your effort early on in the marathon. HR can be your fallback to let you know early on if 7:15min/mi is too fast.
6:36 The long run of 60-90min at "threshold specific intensity", do you mean in zone 4 ie faster than marathon pace? @drwilloconnor
Yes. Half Marathon - 10km Effort
@@drwilloconnor great, thank you!
Dude, is this program for runners under 3hr30 marathons? because I think such long runs for us slower runners would shatter us
Are these long runs not way too hard if you’re already doing threshold and speed sessions during the week? Seems like recipe for injury if you’re not a pro or semi-pro athlete. Wonder if it does not make more sense to do a zone 2 long run in the weekend en do some marathon specific work in the week, like building up from 30min to 90min at marathon pace.
My trainer kept the speed session, but replaced the threshold session with 80-100 minutes at AeT (for me 15 seconds above Marathonpace/km). So no more threshold sessions during the build fase and until the race. And that is very doable.
Not really answering my question... my point is that, in your case, a speed session + an "LT1" session as you described it (Norwegian method) + long run WITH long and hard marathon specific intervals seems way too much for someone not targetting sub 2:45 marathon times@@bartb217
Hey, This video is separate to the double threshold method. I definitely wouldn't recommend doing both. 😵
Do you mean you wouldn't recommend doing both in a week? Most plans i've seen incorporate Intervals, Tempo and Long run (with some speed work) in a week@@drwilloconnor
Какой замечательный фильм! Особенно усиливается впечатление от понимания, в каких условиях снималась эта красота! Спасибо вам за этот час погружения! И удачи в последующий восхождениях и съемках!
Doc OC vid? Throw a thumbs up in there while the ads are playing.
What is a 30 minute tt?
time trial