Paddle Tip: Understanding Surfski Stability!
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- Choosing the right surfski can change your paddle destiny! Paddling a boat too narrow too soon will result in poor muscle memory, injury, dangerous situations and overall less fun! Set yourself up for success with the right boat!
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A truly amazing presentation! Your presentation skills are terrific your knowledge skills beyond compare. And your advice is something every beginning paddler should be aware of. Thank you
Thorough to the max, very good.
I started in a sr then with in weeks went to the nelo 550. This likely cost me a year in progress. The one thing it did do we make me a near expert at remounting in any conditions.
Add a first place for best video I have come across! Really well explained. I will dig thru the archive and look light weight skis suitable for gumbies!
Ha, I have a V10 and legacy, now going to have to do that balance test..swim time😉
Great video for adding some perspective to the upgrade decision! The one time I tried a V10 on flat water I thought, "Why am I not paddling one of these? It's so much faster than my V9." But then two seconds of open ocean paddling reveals why wider boats exist for mortals like myself.
In a word: excellent!
Excellent video. It took me a while studying specs, trying out the boat I'd bought before coming to the conclusions that it was too narrow for my skill level. Everyone should watch this before buying their first surfski.
Thank you so much!
Thank you for this very clear, useful and comprehensive information, which makes very good sense to me as a novice K1 marathon (wing) paddler, who is planning to buy his first Surfski for use on the ocean.
I subscribed to your channel today. Best of wishes from over here in the UK.
Nice vid. All great points!
Two other advantages of a more stable boat are:
1. More stability in rougher conditions (waves)
2. Easier to self rescue onto a more stable platform, and thus safer (especially in waves).
Fantastic video with lots of great explanation and visual examples
From my experience there is a way to learn to paddle a boat that's too tippy without having to buy beginner, intermediate, and advanced boats. I found stages in development that do not involve immediately attempting to do a full body stroke, or any stroke at all, actually. I was a sea kayaker when I started flat water racing, and had the opportunity to get a used VanDusen Eagle - probably the lowest initial stability K1. The hull had very slack bilges - when I put it in the water it immediately leaned over on its side. I started in water shallow enough so I could sit in the boat with both feet still on the lake bottom. At first, as soon as I picked up one foot I would immediately flip. It took me a week practicing an hour every day to be able to lift both feet off the lake bottom and not tip over. After a month I could put both feet in the boat and stay upright while bracing with my hands in the water. Another couple of weeks and I could take my hands off the water surface and balance by waving my arms around. Eventually I got so I could fold my hands in my lap and sit in the boat, balancing by wobbling my legs side to side. When most of this wobbling went away and I could relax I went to folding my arms in front of my chest. Each new challenge started with increased wobbling, then after a few days I could relax. Next stage was folding my hands behind my head. Then raising my arms over my head.
I found that paddling my sea kayak would set back my progression in the Eagle - I would lose a couple of stages every time I went sea kayaking, so I cut out the sea kayaking and spent all my paddling time in the ICF boat. Eventually I was able to paddle it with full rotation. My best speed in it was 9.3mph. www.flickr.com/photos/36472552@N06/5617599725
I never did race it though - the races here were mixed canoe and kayak marathons, and the C2 wakes were too much. I got a Nelo Vanquish, then a Nelo Vintage, and was able to race the Vintage successfully. Then I started surfski paddling, with the following progression: Fenn Mako6, VanDusen Mohican, Epic V14 (won my age group in USCA Nationals in the V14 www.flickr.com/photos/36472552@N06/52908802652 ), Nelo560, Nelo550. I got the 550 for surfing tide races with my rough water kayaking buddies. ua-cam.com/video/9ZX5Ejcy-tg/v-deo.html
I was surprised to find the 2019 550 slightly faster than the 2018 560 even on flat water. At 140HR on the same course (no current, no wind, no waves) I was 2/10 mph faster in the 550. This may be due to better ergonomics - the 550 has a radical rocker line that puts the feet lower than the seat while maintaining a low seat height, and also the hull shape seems to create a 'sweet spot' where it seems to get easier to go faster at around 6mph. The 550 is also more stable, with increased initial and secondary stability, and that may contribute to its speed for me.
One thing I didn't mention is that I made a balance trainer for off-water stability training. ua-cam.com/video/P78aj-tBm4s/v-deo.html
It seems to help with proprioception (perception or awareness of the position and movement of the body), which I think makes me able to realize sooner when I'm tipping. Also helps in learning to correct tipping without using the paddle, so makes it easier to use the paddle to propel the boat and not use it for balance. Free plans are here: www.flickr.com/photos/36472552@N06/48943945963
The initial timeline is a brutal one to recommend to people! The paddlers in the video with zero experience could spend all that time refining hip motion and learning to go faster.
You could likely find someone able to both learn to push a wider boat beyond 7mph averages AND progress from beginner to advanced much sooner.
If my first experience in a surfski was spending an entire week falling out of it without taking any paddle strokes, I would have never stayed in the sport. And that's coming from someone who got into a 16.4" wide SES (after feeling pretty stable in an epic v10sport) and fell out relentlessly the first few times.
I also know I'm not the only one who would have given up in that scenario. Which is a heartbreaking thought because of how much fun I have had in a surfski in the last 3+ years.
You raise some valid and interesting ideas about neural-muscular signalling, reflex development and training for propripception.
I began paddlesport as a young teen, progressed to advanced instruction, then racing, the coaching following formalized training into my midlife. I’m 5’8” and a mere 135#, so a lean ectomorph.
In my mid 50’s I decided to take up (recreationally) ballet… which, like paddling, is an unnatural act. So one has to develop using and adapting ones body and brain in new ways that are supremely efficient in order to progress beyond the basics through intermediate and advanced levels of competency. New neural-cognative processing habita need to be conditioned, formed and mastered to reach the more advanced / elite stages of what humans are capable of doing, like jugglers and gymnasts can do incredible feats that no ‘mere mortal’ (untrained, not gifted) can attain. Then there is the psychological drive to self improve, stay focused despite setbacks, plateaus, injuries and losses, so socio-emotional aspects.
Mind over matter.
Mind-Body connection.
It’s amazing what humans can do when they focus intensely and train appropriately.
Also in my late 50s I decided to take up (English not Western) horse riding (because I am interested in cavalry drills including lance drills spearing small objects off of the ground at a full gallop). My ballet training helped me to get my ‘seat’ (continuous stability maintenance as the horse’s gait changes from walk to trot to canter etc. which involve different hoof placement patterns) so as to not fall off and keep my centre of gravity dynamically… unlike water, horses use their brains and can sense and read the person that’s sitting on them very, very smartly.
So nervous system conditioning and adaptation are key factors for balance sports. The inner ear gyroscope can be conditioned to not be dizzy.
There is also fine muscle motor control adjustments that are barely perceptable.
Working at the edge of one’s envelope is what I dub survival paddling and survival downhill skiing. Extreme weather and sea conditions can quickly take you to your envelope edge. So I practice handicapping myself when out in pleasant conditions… you never know when you might pull a muscle and not be able to engage it as you are most used to. Setting artificial challenges and contrived barriers to work through sets you up for when the unthinkable cones from out of nowhere and suddenly you are forced to improvise.
There are old pilots.
And there are bold pilates.
But there are no old, bold pilots
as that old saying goes.
It's so true. I'm a sea kayak paddler who, after years of paddling a stable, relatively wide-beamed boat, picked up a Valley Rapier because I became obsessed with speed. After the first day in the Rapier, a 12-mile, quiet water run, even though I was in great paddling shape, my hips were sore for a week. hahaha I liked the acceleration and efficiency of the Rapier and it's 17" beam, but I sold it after a nightmare run through a section of heavy chop--I stayed in the boat, but just barely. Thanks for a great discussion.
Love to hear your experience!!!
Did you give up on surf ski and stick with sea kayak?
Nice, very instructional video, and very timely as I'm considering I may need a more stable boat than my current V10Sport to go in the ocean more often.
I'm a casual paddler these days, in my late 50s. Never athletic.
Casual cruising speed in calm (but not flat) waters is about 10kph, or 6.25mph. That's taking it steady.
I paddle a Nelo 510.
You are absolutely right about the very small speed increases with significant reductions in stability. If doing something like flatwater kayak racing, they can help you win a race; but only if you stay upright!
Another factor in instability is fear of falling in.
It is often noted in K1 training, that once someone someone has fallen in, then remounted (well, gone to the side, emptied the boat, climbed back in), then they are steadier.
Fear makes you tense. Tense makes you unstable.
@@Alastair510 I can attest to this from my sea kayaking days. I paddled a Valley Canoe Products Nordkapp which is 21" wide. That's wide for a surf ski perhaps but not an expedition sea kayak. It has very low initial stability but excellent final stability. In rough conditions I used to tell myself to relax and have fun. When your lower body is relaxed and you allow your hips to move with the boat, it becomes much more stable. As for the falling in part, I would sometimes just do a roll when I first started out to get myself wet and get that "fear" of falling in out of the way. Unfortunately you can't do that with a surf ski.
I'm not much of a paddler(80 years old) and have an Epic v8 pro and feel quite comfortable in that. The other day down at the river, I went to hop in someone's very old Epic v10 and got a complete shock I couldn't even sit in it. With one foot on the bottom and the other on the footplate every time I lifted the foot up I rolled. I didn't have the time to keep trying. I never ever thought it would be so unstable compared to the v8pro. I did think that it would be twitchy and I would roll over but would have at least got some paddle strokes in.
It's incredible how exponentially each decrease in width changes stability!!!
Stability is related to metacentric height, so the torso-head height varies the centre if mass… he taller a paddler is, the tendancy is for decreased stability.
@@K2NOPSnot really incredible… a person’s mass is steady / constant so as you vary the hull parameters such as width, the stability curve has to vary accordingly; nothing really unusual about that. Imagine a solo craft that is 50’ wide… incredible that it won’t flip over? Now scale the paddler down to the size of a fly… won’t be able to roll the hull haha
Great Sunday sermon! There is stable enough to not fall in then another higher level of being stable enough to put power in the stroke. Doing it without a paddle is a great way to show that, great video!
Almost thought Christina was about to rotate on that K1 like a boss, hit the elite like it was a V8 💪
Try it in your Sete next time you're out... not shown is me swimming while doing it... I blame those little swells!
@@K2NOPS I cant even sit in my Sete without a paddle for balance 😆 There are good balance days and bad ones, waste a gopro outing, I chose a bad day 🤷♂️
Oh gosh, this is exactly my problem.
Nice video showing a difference between the boats. I started in a s18s G2 which I would consider very much a beginner boat, transferred to a V10 gen 3 after two years I still wouldn't take it in the ocean. Last year I found a balance with the Stellar Falcon at 18 in wide. I'm not really crazy about the boat variety of reasons but it has the stability between the s18s and the V10. I remember when I started looking at skis I thought I'd get a V12 and just learn to paddle it. Fortunately someone told me "stability before availability" before I made that mistake.
Many people would go the v12 route which is the worst! There's another commenter explaining how arduous it was to simply sit in an elite boat... why waste the time when you can focus on paddling to hone the 90% that makes you fast.
@@K2NOPS my stroke needs a lot of work. I thought it was 99% of the way there until I watched a video My sister took. My catch is way too late. Almost to the point where I'm pulling the paddle out of the water for some reason I never picked up on it. Fry have been wondering why I can't get the boat much past 6 mph. Now I know why LOL
My point being is that I'm going back to the more stable boats like the Falcon and the s18s this summer to work on the stroke. Thanks again for posting the video
I find that the rudder is a major contributor to stability. The difference between feet off the pedals and lines slack, as opposed to light pressure and lines under tension is huge. I especially noticed how 'tippy' K1 kayaks are with their tiny rudders compared with surfskis.
Didn't realise the lines to be under pressure is a big help for stability? It's funny I read this just now because today I tightened my rudder cable. There was some slack and made quite a big adjustment. I'm interested to hearing your thoughts on the idea
@@jd32k I find that it makes a big difference. Here's another example of how the rudder has a big effect on the ski in the water and of course the faster you're going the bigger the effect: go fast in a straight line then kick the rudder vigorously to one side; the ski should quickly lean into the turn without you doing anything with your body. This is just what you want when on a wave, it leans you into the turn and you can brace accordingly
Future video: Primary and secondary stability in boat design.
primary stability is the initial righting torque when the boat is level. Boat hulls range from stiff (stronger, springy righting torque) to tender (weaker, lighter, sluggish righting torque).
When the hull heels, secondary or form stability connes into play: the topsides can be flared outwards, straight upwards, bulbous outwards (sponson, air tube) or inboard (tumble home) for portions or for the entire length of the hull. SUPs are very stiff, SS are very tender, the two extremes. Sailboats (keelboats) because of their deep, heavy keels don’t tend to capsize, and when they do reright if sealed off from flooding.
Stability torque is a graphable function for varying angles of heel. Once you reach the heel angle of vanishing stability, its game over and PLOP!, over you go flipping over.
Injured (amateur) triathlete here, I was usually 3-7% away to win my age group, so if my material sets me back by 10% I get upset 😅. I usually use stable sea kayaks, my long term aim for me is to go for Surfskis and have the option to use K1s in my club, I started with a 52cm/20" wide one which feels shaky but I feel I can get it to full speed and I stay inside. I tried the 46cm/18" wide one yesterday and spend quite some time swimming and never got to full speed, so I get your point - It was still fun though. . Question: As I have the option to use both K1 widths(or even 40cm, but I wont try that for some time...), would you recommend to use both to also get used to the instability or should I rather stick with the wider one for some time? I feel I learned a lot more on how to stabilize a kayak in 2hrs in the narrower K1 than I learned in months in sea kayaks.
You can definitely see the allure of cashing in less than 10% in the short term... the issue being is you lose 20+% over the long term with poor movement mechanics!!!
Spend the majority of your time in the 20 inch and try to work big/strong movements. You'll find yourself closer and closer to falling out from movement there which is what you want. You don't want the boat making you fall with no input, since it trains you to give little input... you want to train for that 90% that moves the boat.
The upgrade from sea kayak is definitely venturing into another world. As fun as it is to balance the narrow boats as a short term party trick the real progression is moving well with the kayaking movement!
Great video, really makes it clear how important it is to start out on a surfski that suits you! Would you say this is also true if you primarily paddle on flat water? I am looking to buy my first surfski and unfortunately the really narrow ones are MUCH cheaper on the second hand market 😅 I want to paddle on canals almost daily, mostly for fitness and improving technique. It will be some time before I ever go out into waves. Is having a more stable kayak equally important in that instance? I tried a V10 recently and it felt a little challenging but definitely like I could get used to it soon, didn't really push hard though.
Yes this is true in flatwater! I totally understand the older models being cheaper as an incentive. Being in a boat and aggressively paddling a boat are two different things, learning the movement in the stable environment is invaluable in the early phase so you're not stuck with "stable" arm paddling mechanics. Our perception of movement and stability are always higher than reality!
Ok thanks, appreciate the advice! I'll be patient and look for a surfski that fits my level instead of rushing into it :)@@K2NOPS
So i currently kayak a semi stable sea kayak, and want to learn to paddle a nelo kayak. My friend told me to start out in a tippy surfksi before trying a nelo sprint kayak or depending on if i can balance a sprint kayak. What do you think? I don’t want to buy boat after boat and want to buy one and train on it until i get it right.
Buying one until you get it right would be getting a very stable surfski then thinking about the nelo sprint boat years later. The white boat I try at the very end is comparable to the Nelo you're thinking about and nobody even wanted to sit in it!
@@K2NOPSSo i now paddle a nelo viper 46 and i come from a eddyline rio a sea kayak. Do you think the viper 46 is a intermediate boat ? Or elite
I have a raft, a Razorlite 393rl and it feels fine. It has a 24 inch beam width that feels a bit wide for a comfortable stroke. Doesn’t go fast but I seldom feel unstable. It has foot rests too but no hip braces. It has a skeg which I normally use. I also use a Greenland style paddle similar to the Okinawan paddle that I first learned with in the ocean. I want to move up to a Greenland style boat such as a Rebel or a Zegul. I like the flat rear deck, low above waterline profile, and low volume. I am no racer but I want a clean ride with the ability to “easily” go 4 mph. I really have to paddle hard in the Razorlite on flat water, to go that fast. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is there a lower target, or intermediate kayak that I should shoot for? Is the Rebel Greenland GT too unstable?
I'm not extensively knowledgeable on sea kayaks/Greenland paddles since they are not conducive to racing. Transitioning into a fiberglass sit on top surfski with a very small wing blade would instantly get you above 4mph. I have had first timers in surfski cruise around at 5mph+ on their first day in a boat.
If you study ancient indigenous, aboroginal arctic hunting kayak designs, I think you will find that the are extremely narrow and swift… not for sport racing but for survival in the extreme environment. I would need to check reference sources for dimensions. Perhaps there is material posted on the WWW with the specs.
*aboriginal
There are specimens in the Canadian Museum of History collection near Ottawa, the nation’s capital.
These were very functional craft suited to their purpose and totally sustainable, unlike today’s carbon fibre hulls.
What is the name of the padding app for tracking and training are you using
I use a garmin watch and the app is Garmin Connect :)
8.1mph is like 7 kts.
Or it's like 13kmph!
@@K2NOPS we mariner types use nautical miles per hour for wind and current velocities and distances ... for search and rescue and distress communications. So I converted for position forecasting purposes :-)
At the equator, a nautical mile is the same distance as 1/60th of 1 degree of latitude, that is, 1 Minute of latitude. While the earth’s surface is charted based on 360 degrees of rotation east-to-west longitude and 180 degrees of latitude (North Pole and South Pole are each at 90 degrees right angle) measured from the equator disk.
Long story short, it makes the math for navigating much easier than using statute land miles or metric units. But for sports other then sail racing nothing beats m/sec or kph :-)
I tried a surfski and all it wanted to do was flip. I was told it was a very wide and stable one but nothing was further from the truth. I breathed, it wanted to flip. I tried to paddle it, it wanted to flip. Paddling it without flipping it was extremely difficult. Been kayaking for almost 20 years never been on a boat that difficult to control. I believe it was the V8 if that's the safest and easiest I cannot imagine the wisdom of taking these... death traps into open water. I ran back with my tail between my legs to my "recreational" but much more usable boats. The experience was useful in vaccinating me from wanting to get a better or faster boat and will promise to save me a lot of money as in retrospect I have reason to be happy with what I have. No "upgrade" envy here!
There's a lot of factors that go into making the boats feel tippier or easier for most users. Height, weight, age and mentality typically the biggest contributors. I've had petite ladies able to go all the way to the 19inch wide boats with zero issues and I've seen larger 6ft3+ guys fall right out of the largest boats immediately.
That being said, the maneuverability and glide of the boats is really unmatched and typically worth taking the journey for depending on the goals. If there are no goals except being on the water a hollowed out pumpkin would be the best conversation starting option!
@@K2NOPS Yes that's the problem. I am 6'4" so there is no such thing as secondary stability. My goal is exercise, adventure and getting into places where nobody else can go, and cross train for endurance cycling. I use an old Tsunami 125 for open water for its stability. Its not as fast as the skis but it doesn't matter to me because at least I can survive in that boat in wind and waves without flipping.
I use a Stellar S14 G2 for flat water. Its a lot faster but more tippy and about the most I can handle in flatwater chop though the composite boats are far less seaworthy and stable would never want to take it out on open ocean! Curiously I can get to over 6mph cruising speed which is very close to what the skis get. I am very fit and told I could do great in one but..... I have the flipping problem and value stability over speed; they are mutually exclusive. I think I have learned that I maxed out in this field which is OK. What I haven't maxed out is new places or adventures.
I would point out the S14 g2 for your height would be potentially less stable than the S18S/Osprey/V8 equivalents. The length of the hull adds to how "responsive" they feel so losing 2 inches of width to gain 4 feet of length usually ends up being more ideal. Those super short boats are deceptively tippy due to the length. Wish you were nearby you'd be welcome to use my boats until you got the hang of it!
@@K2NOPS It's hard as the local pro shop I used to frequent sold out to someone who isn't that prepared and I will leave it at that. I am a beast in terms of fitness (able to ride ultra centuries in the mountains on a gravel or mountain bike, paddle all day) but have diabetes on insulin which is why I keep myself so fit. The problem is the hip sack. Yea I can get a waterproof one but what about other stuff like drivers license and other "survival" gear, phone charger for my adventures. I end up having to switch out so many things and then leave important stuff in the car (that can get stolen) its hardly worth it for me. It ends up being easier to just carry the normal bag and take the risk of flipping. I never go down because I make it my business not to so as to avoid ruining my electronics (glucose meter). Used to have an insulin pump that was not waterproof but the newer versions are. Outside of my ski experience the only time I ever flipped a boat was last year paddling in a swamp at night hitting an underwater log; I should have known better.
The G2 isn't bad. I can kind of sort of deal with it. IT's much more stable than the G1 which was a little scary and tracked TERRIBLY in wind or waves. What I also like about it is that I can shove it in the back of my pickup truck. It almost falls out and definitely slides a little more being longer than the 14 G1 but still at the point where no racks needed! At this point I feel like I've plateaued kayaking and will do as much as I can ability wise. That's the other problem with this particular sport for me. With biking I got into group riding and those people showed me a thing or ten. With paddling it's either out of shape, elderly flatwater paddlers or high performance people like yourself and I am decidedly in the middle with no reason or ability to be with either so I kind of have to do it alone which really limits growth at this point. What keeps me going back to the sport is that like mountain skiing its never the same slope or body of water twice!