Is The Localization For Unicorn Overlord BAD? | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубліковано 5 бер 2024
- Localization is one of the most challenging aspects of game development, it can either make or break a game. But sometimes it's done extremely well and some people just can't see it. It's OK to disagree with the translation choices made by a team of translators, however, if you think the translation for Unicorn Overlord isn't DOPE then you run a high likelihood of being wrong. I think the odds are maybe like 99% that you're wrong. But hey, there's still a chance. Listen to hear opinions that are softer than this description might let on. Enjoy the comments!
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For the line between Alain and Josef in regards to his mother, it isn't delivered in an accusatory fashion, and that makes all the difference. He's genuinely questioning the situation after his mother left and Josef is to secret him away. Anything out of context can seem vastly different.
oh my God this. it's a literal child in the middle of the night during a thunderstorm asking his mom's bodyguard why he isn't helping her right after his mother tells said bodyguard to take her child away from a coup de tat. I don't expect the child to understand what is happening. Calling his tone accusatory isnt being sympathetic to his position at that point in time.
Very good point.
The author of the twitter thread, I'll just say it didn't seem to have a high degree of literacy, or even listen to how the vocal lines were delivered. They kept missing very basic allusions and as a result thought the English localization was so much different than the Japanese text despite almost 1 for 1 conveying the thoughts and feelings of the JPN text.
Alain was not accusatory at all, like you mentioned. He's a worried kid showcasing concern; and the voice actor delivers it as such.
Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother. Seriously, people who defend this didn't play the Japanese audio version with that stupid American subtitle.
I think there should be a space for these kinds of conversations about localisation accuracy vs taking liberties to better convey intent (for instance, The Odyssey has been translated multiple times in the name of striking a balance between being more technically accurate and better preserving the more poetic nature of the untranslated text). For me, this particular conversation starts to lose me when the critics:
A. Project motivation or intent onto people they don't know (I'm thinking particularly of that one person you highlighted saying "they just want to censor things they hate", which feeds into the worst parts of games discourse)
B. Make assumptions about the process and assume that there was no back and forth between the Japanese team and the writers.
C. Operate under the blanket assumption that more accurate is inherently better when, as you pointed out, there are times when something will get changed to better convey the meaning to an intended audience. A good example of this is an interview with the English translator for The Silver Case, where specific pop culture references to Japanese pro wrestlers and Tokusatsu series were adapted into references to American pro wrestlers and superheroes because that would convey the same intent to a Western audience.
Speaking of Vanillaware, last week I was playing Sentinel 13: Aegis Rim for the first time and near the end I thought how cool would be to bring it to this podcast, the narrative structure is so ambitious that is worth talking an hour or two, I think.
what do people mean by narrative structure being "ambitious"? it's literally talking heads like any VN
@@FredMaverikIt feels ambitious because you play 13 different stories that involve the same characters and setting in interesting and interconnected ways
That game caught my eye at gamestop a few months ago. Is it any good? Great characters?
I really loved 13 Sentinels. Even knowing most of the plot, it's interesting to see the changes to the narrative pacing playing it in different orders. The reveals and twists coming at different times do make the experience a bit different
13 Sentinels is one of my favorite games in years. Really brilliant, it's why I'm so excited for unicorn overlord even though they seem to be quite different.
52:07
About the line of alain "accusing" josef for the dub the actor for young alain doesn't read that line in an accusatory manner but in a confused, sad manner.the kid is confused about not understanding what is happening to at that time.
Yeah, this is a very good point.
@@michaelcoraybrown I'm going to guess that the person who made this X post likely played with English dialog but japanese vocals so they wouldn't be able to tell how the line was read.
Another valid point that intonation gets lost in the text vs voice
Still doesn't reflect how JP portrayed Alain's character correctly. False localization point still stands.
The comment about how the language is shaped by the things around you (religion, animals…) reminded me of something I came across while learning German. A lot of our analogies nowadays involve “gas”, “energy”, “power up”, “oil”… because of Industrial Revolution. The same way we also started incorporating software/computer lingo to day to day things. Such as “updating”, “downloading”, “connecting” and “processing” becoming way more prevalent.
Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother. Seriously, people who defend this didn't play the Japanese audio version with that stupid American subtitle.
@@tioedu_ you just gonna copy/paste this reply on every comment when it's not even relevant to the comment? that is a great way to get your point across I have to say
The ‘what’s true about the morning sun?’ killed me when I saw it on twitter-- it was the moment I said: ‘yeah, i dont *ever* need to take this person seriously.’
Being on Twitter is a good way to lose faith in humanity. You will think media literacy is dying, the younger generations are all degenerates, the older generations are all heartless, and news is always bad, even if it is good.
50:21
Another group of American idiots who think they're superior.
They think that only Americans will play the English version? when it hasn't been translated into several languages?
The way they state their opinion is as if everyone is obliged to enjoy this version.
these guys did a much better job: ua-cam.com/video/fk_D7lV9Eiw/v-deo.html
Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother. Seriously, people who defend this didn't play the Japanese audio version with that stupid American subtitle.
@@tioedu_ Its not true tho. He mentions his mothers being ashamed of him plenty. I think you havent played the game and your just being a contrarian. But thats only my opinion.
@@but..whatif1416
i said: "Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother"
you: "He mentions his mothers being ashamed of him plenty." What does this have to do with what I said, I'm pointing out a fact, not questioning the story
I said that he mentions his mother 3 times - when he is defeated - and it didn't appear in the localization when he did it in Japanese.
I have a friend who I think will love this game, but I know he'll be put off by the name... I'm just going to tell him it's called "Unilord Overcorn".
Just tell him it’s a game where the protagonist will become a lord among lords and that he bears an emblem of a unicorn. That’s how I see it.
The biggest turn-off for me isn't the name, it's the subpar narrative. Hard to justify the purchase of a 100+ hour game without it being at least somewhat interesting with its themes. Bummer, was one of my most anticipated.
@@DoodlePrinceI actually like the way the narrative is. It puts more emphasis on the world itself, so it is more fun to explore. Basically imagine the main plot as a rope and every areas small story as a flag hanging on said rope.
50:21
Another group of American idiots who think they're superior.
They think that only Americans will play the English version? when it hasn't been translated into several languages?
The way they state their opinion is as if everyone is obliged to enjoy this version.
44:20 weeks before this thread, there was a big uproar over anime localizers that were openly declaring the source material bad. Turning a haughty dragon lady who thinks humans are beneath them, into someone that was "tired of patriarchy demands" of her fashion for instance.
50:21
Another group of American idiots who think they're superior.
They think that only Americans will play the English version? when it hasn't been translated into several languages?
The way they state their opinion is as if everyone is obliged to enjoy this version.
these guys did a much better job: ua-cam.com/video/fk_D7lV9Eiw/v-deo.html
Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother. Seriously, people who defend this didn't play the Japanese audio version with that stupid American subtitle.
36:30 playing a little devil's advocate here, and I'm not sure you will address it later in the video, but recently, in the anime side of localization, there has been some recent reveals regarding translators taking liberties over their work without the consent of the original autor; as in not only translating, but "fixing" the script to make it "better", in their opinion. i suspect the accusations comes from that perspective, not so much from the videogame industry current standards
To play devil's devil's advocate. That's what happens when you SELL your distribution rights and obligation to translate the work overseas and don't do it yourself. You signed the contract and took the money, live with it.
@@williampounds5191 yet there must be conditions to that, even by contract, of how much you can customize
Recently a Japanese author committed suicide over how heavily altered one of her most popular works were due to how the live-action tv adaptation was heavily altered. I'm sure she had a lot going on in her life, but that doesn't water down how truly awful authors take it when their work is tampered with without their consent.
Edit: Was an issue with native live-action adaptation, not localization.
Who was that? @@paledrake
@@dershburns3321 Hinako Chojihara (might've misspelled her name), the author of the manga Sexy Tanaka-san. Though apparently it was because the japanese live-action tv adaptation wasn't faithful to the manga, not a localization issue (there was no english adaptation).
please link Matsuno's response if you could! id love to hear the conversation around his thoughts.
I'm convinced they meant the name as Unicorn Ogre-Lord. The amount of Ogre Battle in there is beautiful.
100% agreed on the translation, I think I posted a thing on there about how much value we got when something like early Pokemon did the exact same thing. Just knowing a word like "aplomb" changed a lot by itself.
Unicorn Ogrelord is a better title, for sure.
I...didn't even pick up on that possible name. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Surely they would get into some sort of trouble with that name.
I spit my coffee, Ogreloooooord lol
In japanese it's ユニコーンオーバーロード which you can read as Unicorn Overlord of course, but you can also read it as Unicorn Overload, so maybe in the endgame you can ride a unicorn with all your characters.
Fun Fact: Alexander O'Smith quote tweeted that same tweet from Matsuno.
I agree that the translation is cool and that it really suits the game. With translation work you always have to keep the audience in mind whilst also balancing authorial intent etc. In English whenever you have a setting like this it is often the norm that the language gets all "medievalified". It fits the genre and is instantly recognizable to the audience. There was a lot of mention of Shakespeare and King James in this episodes but I think it is important to remember that these people lived in the early modern period. Shakespeare did most of his writing around 1600 which is already a 100 or so years removed from anything we would call medieval.
The English language itself has completely changed during the last 1500 or so years as well. Beowulf was mentioned but its quite the challenge to pick up an Old English version of Beowulf and just start reading. The same applies to Middle English, it's certainly easier to pick up The Canterbury Tales than Beowulf but it is a far cry from an easy read. Another thing to keep in mind is that medieval fictional texts, like The Canterbury Tales, were written with the idea that someone was going to read them out loud, most people being illiterate and silent reading often an oddity. And they were written with a lot of alliteration, some rhymes being so common that one expects life to be followed by wife. So the writing style probably doesn't accurately reflect the way people spoke.
So whilst the language in games like Unicorn Overlord fit the setting to our modern sensibilities it is not actually truly medieval. Instead what we get is a look at the medieval period through a Shakespearean lens. And even that is adapted even further still, shakespeare's Early Modern English translated into a more accessible: "This is what people expect from a fantasy game in 2024 English".
Does it sound good and cool? It certainly does. Is it a good reflection of how people spoke/wrote in the medieval period, probably not so much.
Always really nice insights from these podcasts! I especially appreciate the perspective on language from Casen. I used to take a more "hardline purist" stance on localization, but I've since softened a lot. In principle, "staying true to the director's vision" seems like the obvious line of thinking, but there's nuance to language... in fact, language IS nuance. Looking into Alexander O. Smith's work on Vagrant Story really got the wheels turning for me. It's such a clear case where abiding by this 1:1 thinking would have been detrimental to the final product. Could it have literally been more accurate? Sure. Would it have been *truer* to the director's vision? That's a much more complicated question. There are cases where more of a puritanical outlook on localization may be warranted, but not to the extent that we write off translation as an art form in itself.
Love your video essays! Glad to see you around here.
Im always somewhat disapointed when I hear that liberties were taken with a translation. For better or for worse I want to experience someones art the way they intended me to.
@@lotterwinner6474Then learn the language. Because you will NEVER get what you're asking for with ANY translation. Sorry if that seems unfair, but it's true. If you translate a language as directly as possible you are going to lose a ton of nuance and subtlety, and thus intent. To attempt to maintain intent WILL require losing literal accuracy. This is called localization, and it is not an exact science because neither is language.
I've NEVER come across a SINGLE English translation/localization of a Japanese work that chose the exact words I would've if I were in charge of the translation. And that isn't to say I know better than anyone else, that's just how language works. So your ONLY recourse to get what an artist intends is to actually read or listen to THEIR words, not something through another human. What you're asking for is impossible and ridiculous when you think about it. You necessarily require a second human to convey third a human's intent? How can you possibly expect to truly experience what the artist meant with total accuracy?
@@lotterwinner6474 I can read Japanese but I do absolutely prefer the localization of UO. And it's not a rule, mind you. My general preference is always the original. But the stylistic flair the English localization gives is absolutely spectacular, makes it a joy to read in comparison to the "matter of fact" original script.
Dude thats a lot of words to fundamentally say nothing. Localization isn't an art form. If you treat it as one you've fundmenetally failed. Your job is to bring the original vision to light. Language is nuanced my ass, they straight up added dialogue quirks that were nowhere present in the original. Regardless of your opinion on the changes you cannot argue its respectful to the original vision. Don't take this half assed stance and just admit accuracy isnt important to you if you're able to so easily accept a piss poor job like this. Ya'll folks love to turn simple topics into "complex nuanced issues" as a way to avoid admitting whose wrong and fixing the problem
I think the best takeaway I can encapsulate upon evaluation of my own perspective on this broader subject: You can be on both sides of this argument simultaneously, and that's probably the best place to be.
Not from a fear of absolutes, or for the sake of hedging your bets, though flexibility in opinion is always a nice benefit.
Dialogue is the conduit for engaging players with your story. As much as I love older games for their near complete lack of localization (i.e. Haschel in Legend of Dragoon holding a dying former student in his arms, saying "Stop talking. It makes you die.") the comically stilted English didn't always lend the clearly intended tone, so mere translation has never been enough and never will be. That's an absolute I feel comfortable stating.
The provided examples you went through are entire worlds away from being close to egregious. It speaks to the original poster's pedantry and clear lack of experience with how translation/localization is accomplished. (Which you both did an excellent job relating.)
It's plain this flowery prose did very little for them, which is a shame. Personally, forays into "dusty English" (and metaphor generally) are enriching, and I appreciate the time and effort you both spent talking about this subject.
As a brief addendum: Is it no longer possible to merely relate what you don't like without attempting to violently drown bystanders with your opinion?
A question for our age.
Yeah, as someone who could play this game in either Japanese or English if there WASN'T the flowery prose I would... just play the game in Japanese. The original Japanese does it just fine for me as a Japanese speaker. Whereas a direct, dry translation into English just would not engage me as an English speaker. So I like the flowery stuff. I also simply do not find that the word choice actually changes the "accuracy" of the translation in any meaningful way.
Was soo excited for this game until I heard about the translation issues and coming from the anime side, it pissed me off. Knowing now that it isnt that but just speaking from a different time period, totally relieved. Will still get the game. Thanks for the video clearing this up.
The choices the OP made on what was so terrible were really weird, too. Like we've all played hours of the demo at this point, and there are a few points where the dialogue is a little weaker. That's just the nature of a long game, there's often a couple of rough edges hiding in there, no big deal. I'd expect the OP to cherry pick just those, but instead, he picks some really excellent translations, which makes me feel like he's probably just trolling.
I agreed that the best point in there was probably the one where they do seem to change the tone of Alain asking Josef to help his mom, but then if you listen with the English VA Alain sounds more hurt/confused than angry/demanding. So it fits after all.
Same with the Scarlett line. She obviously IS shaken up, she's just putting on a brave face for Alain.
In other words, fuck it if I want to play with Japanese audio?
love the discussion, love the show. I'm an indie dev who had a game published and we in fact hired a localization firm to localize to 7 languages. During the localization process the localizers maintained a spreadsheet with questions and discussion pertaining to any passage of dialog they needed insight with. We'd often discuss changes with individual localizers about how to best adapt something to a specific language, with that particular localizer obviously guiding us on what something means or how something will come across to natives of their language, and suggesting tweaks or substitutions that would be suitable. I can't imagine the meaning of the game being largely changed by localizers without the developer knowing
Thank you for your input! If an Indie dev has that type of control over localization I imagine that a large studio has at the very least that same degree of control and insight.
I agree that the translation for Unicorn Overlord seems fine from what I'm seeing. However, I can't say that translations/localizations are in the best spot right now with the recent drama around anime localizations. Better than it was for certain back in the 3DS and earlier era, but still enough there to be concerned about.
"Only a little shaken, that's all."
I don't think that means she wasn't as scared as the Japanese stated, just maybe she's downplaying it more. I don't know much about Scarlet, but maybe she's a proud character or feels like she needs to hold her emotions in check or perhaps just doesn't want the people around her to worry. How many people have said "I'm fine" after a scary experience when they clearly weren't? I feel like the translation more implies the same instead of stating it outright.
Yeah, the japanese lines makes her sound like your typical classical damsel in distress. When in the first cutscene she pushed back one assailant and dodged an attack from the other. It is clear visible that she has some fight in her and the localised dialogue reflects it more.
I also feel like the voice direction and the character acting comes into this. when she says "just a little shaken, that's all." She's literally shaken to her knees and her voice is quivvering. It's obvious she's more than just shaken. She's just trying to put on a brave face with her words. But the fact she's scared is clearly conveted.. A lotta hay made out of nothing.
This is a very good point!
Without even hearing the voice acting, I assumed the voice would be shaky. That's not a line someone says with a calm tone. It's good to know my hunch was correct, I guess. I must be getting smarter from listening to these podcasts!
I think theres another point to be made related to voice acting. Many of these lines are meant to be performed by voice actors. Elaborate poetic text gives the voice actor a lot more to work with than dry, machine translated text.
Auch when he is defeated he mentions his mother 3 times, in the American version he doesn't even say anything about his mother. Seriously, people who defend this didn't play the Japanese audio version with that stupid American subtitle.
Ok thank you, this video gave me peace of mind, there are MANY instances of localizers openly and publicly bragging about changing the script into something completely different to fit their own political ideas or just because they think the original is "bad", but i´m glad Unicorn Overlord did not fall victim to one of those, all they did was spice it up a little while keeping the same meaning and tone intact which is fine imo.
I genuinely enjoyed the localization because i love this kind of "flowery" language so i´m glad it was a good-faith translation for once instead of the usual hatred towards the Japanese.
You are clown. They are part of the problem.
It was bad-faith since when someone asked one of the localizers about their choice or reason for some of the changes ( I can tell you from the twitter thread it was all good none mean spirited comments) they just go and put their twitter on private 💀and there's a lot of things in the game that are not well done and changed characters personalities.
Im starting to think the Skies of Arcadia restrospective is never going to come :(
Jesuit missonaries in Japan in XVI century where trying to explain Christian doctrine using Amida Buddism. It became quite an interestig mix.
I'm guessing you've read/watched Silence?
@@patrickweller5254 not yet.
Good movie! @@patrickweller5254
Japanese titles and company names are interesting. In America we name things so that the meaning of the name is obvious most of the time, but in Japan it's really common that people name things based upon an emotional or referential title only known to the person who came up with it. They do this with kanji as well, so I think it with English is just an evolution of that.
Hi! I'm a former translator for Korean to English games. I will say that for people who are first jumping into a new language, I can definitely see the purist perspective and why people want the original source to be preserved as much as possible. I watch K Dramas with English subs on and it irks me every time a translation is completely different from the original source language. That said, if you develop enough mastery over a language to actually attempt translating it, you'll find that there are many cases where literal one-to-one translations will make no sense to the English viewer. I saw this when reviewing translations from beginner translators where they literally translated everything one-to-one, and the sentence structure is wonky, and the idioms don't smoothly carry the same meaning, and for lack of a better expression, it just feels extremely clunky, hodgepodge and messy. Good translations have an artistic element to them. It's as much "interpretation" as it is "translation". And while that might seem criminal for a translator to try to infer what the writer was trying to convey, it's unavoidable if you want a story that makes sense in the target language. Of course, in-house translations have a leg up because you can consult the developers on intent to ensure you're crossing your t's and dotting your i's. But you can't consult them on every tiny nuance, so some degree of interpretation will be necessary, and in fact, good translators are able to take the source text and quickly convert that text into what an English interpretation would look like so it reads well to an English-speaking audience.
Fico feliz de saber que você está aprendendo português Mike, Muito maneiro de saber que vocês são tão versados em varias linguas
Obrigado! Eu precisco de aprender muito mais depois eu posso falar e entender com falantes nativos, mas eu estou tentando aprender novas coisas todos os dias!
This channel is a goldmine.
Replace gold with coal and you're right.
Listened to the podcast and had to jump onto youtube to add my 2 cents. If we are concerned about authorial intent when it comes to the dialog I encourage everyone to look back at the first western released game by Vanillaware: Odin Sphere. The dialog in the game is very flowery and I would personally describe it as almost Shakespearean. A great example about how much they care about the English dialog can be seen in the games remake Leifthrasir, where most of the dialog was kept, but a few key lines were rerecorded to make them sound better in context. Whoever does the localization for Vanillaware clearly understands the intent of the author. Another good example, to as lesser extent, is the game Dragon's Crown where there is a very well spoken narrator throughout the game. This sort of language is the company's bread and butter.
I would also point to their most recent game: 13 Sentinels Aegis Rim. Unlike all their other works the characters are kids living in the 80s, and they sound like normal kids, like they should. I believe this is more evidence to prove that the localization team (assuming they are the same people) understand the intent.
Lastly I think you should look at the game Muramasa: the Demon Blade, as it is their only western release that never got English voice over. And I think that was intentional. The game is steeped in feudal Japanese imagery and Shinto mythology, it makes sense that the characters would speak in Japanese if the people in charge of the localization cared about that sort of thing. Now I don't know the language but I wouldn't be surprised if the dialog in that game was more flowery or old timey in Japanese.
Anyway the point I want to make is that, as a huge Vanillaware fan, I think Unicorn Overlord has the perfect dialog style and it fits with the legacy of the company perfectly. Also check out these other games, they are all fantastic.
They also removed any reference to an implied assassination by Oswald with stilted, out of place lines.
I can see the intent behind making him a less villainous character, but it's sloppy work.
Thank you, I'm glad someone here knows their shit. This work doesn't exist in a vacuum, if you've played other vanillaware games you know the context of this situation.
I already thought the localization was good, but the discussion on the historical context of language and religion actually made me appreciate it way more. It seems like whoever translated it put in a lot more work and effort than you'd expect from a typical translation. This is one of the best discussions on this topic I've seen.
Some of the things with bad localization that irk me are when they 'accidentally' foreshadow things that aren't actually where things are going or fail to set up payoffs that DO happen. That and using different proper nouns for the same thing or all the different ways they end up being vague or confusing when they should be drawing you in.
One reason that the Twitter guy may have been so touchy about the translation is that I've heard anime subs have been having weird modern political stuff inserted in strange places. Like weird comments about patriarchy, etc. So he might be jumping at shadows because of it. Pure speculation on my part.
Edit: this was mentioned right after I posted lol
I knew it was old, but it was trending again recently.@@kollie79
Thank you so much for this video. The level of the discourse--if I'm being polite--around Unicorn Overlord's localization has been, frankly, maddening. Especially in light of how good the game is, and the level of care and craft Vanillaware put into it. At the worst, I've seen people arguing to pirate the game in anticipation of a "more accurate" fan translation, which wounds me given how relatively small Vanillaware is as a company, and by God they deserve every dollar they can for keeping the art in video games alive!
Regardless, a levelheaded voice like this is much needed, and definitely much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
Just people who not trying to pay 60$ if you ask me.
Just wanted to add a note about Edo period Japanese. You're right that most Japanese people aren't using that language anymore, but oddly enough, games are one of the single remaining avenues that continue to use a lite version of it (when applicable) and thus gamers might be one of the most comfortable groups for introducing this kind of language.
This game gives off Mattsuno/Dragon Force vibes and resonant arc community is grateful for it
A funny thing that happens in Brazilian localization sometimes(usually in comedy movies) is that when the source material is largely american and a stereotipically british guy with a heavy accent shows up, he generally is dubbed with a portuguese accent, and the other characters with the brazilian one.
Also come to Brazil, Mike.
Unicorn Overlord isn't an ideal name, but it is unique enough i never forgot it!
Best. Name. Ever.
And the sequel will be called Bicorn Tyrant 😂
@@Ehins sign me up. 😆
Triceratops Dictator
Japanese phrases things softer and in questions and less direct as a rule, when the actual _intention_ is to be accusatory.
This is at the very essence of their language and culture, where the former and latter reinforce each other.
Personally, as someone whose english is a second language whose english was learned through videogames (im from brazil. Oi Mike! Fico feliz que esteja aprendendo portugues!).
The issue i particularly have with the lofalizatiom is that i started to learn japanese through listening and reading the subtitles in anime. (And asking some japanese speaker friends).
I'm not fluent in Japanese, but i've reached a point where I can understand enough to tell when what I'm reading and what i'm hearing aren't even CLOSE to being the same. It was particularly bothersome in Fire Emblem Engage. Where it wasnt just a matter of using flowery language, but completely changing what conversations were even about.
I have a soft spot for those 90s RPG translations made on a budget. I don't have the merits or, frankly, the knowledge to determine if they were objectively good or bad, but they were definitely iconic! For example, one of my favorite lines in Final Fantasy VI is, "My life is a chip in your pile."
The Japanese phrasing directly translates into a very sterile and sort of bland statement: "I'll treat my life as a chip and wager it on you."
The English translation just sounds way more poetic, and it flows much better. Even when I first played it, when I didn't really know what most of the language even meant, I just always liked the sound of that line. Maybe it's related to what you guys were talking about in the Jurassic Park podcast, how dialogue can be written not to sound natural and compelling but to sell a certain emotion or immersion.
Man I was on the fence about this one but watching this and seeing how the translation is done I'm actually going to pick this up now. Thank you guys.
Parabéns por aprender português, Mike. Espero que visitas Portugal um dia no futuro; é um país mesmo bonito.
My take on localization has always been that as long as the original tone, intent, and meaning of the Japanese script is kept intact, I'm okay with them taking a bit of creative license. It's when the localizers (and this includes the bosses/supervisors/etc., not just the people directly working on the script) completely change the meaning of the script that I start to have a problem. Something like Unicorn Overlord here seems mostly acceptable to me, especially since the changes being made are in service to the setting; I had actually wondered upon seeing the comparisons if there was a reason why the game used such modern, straightforward Japanese in its original script, and you guys answered that question for me in this video; I never knew that older forms of Japanese were basically incomprehensible to most native Japanese speakers today, unlike older forms of English that are still widely understood by modern English speakers, if a little obscure. Furthermore, I much prefer the script of Unicorn Overlord being adapted into an old medieval English style (which like I said is done in service to the setting) than to have it written in 2020s modern English and peppered with Zoomer-speak throughout. My only issues as it stands is with the alterations made to certain characters, but I'll reserve my judgement on that for when I actually hear the dub for myself.
With that, in light of the fact that you guys are talking about a Vanilla Ware game, I leave you with my usual elevator pitch for 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim:
As much of a pain as it might be to set up due how non-linear it is, would you guys consider doing a podcast on 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim in the future? It is an absolutely insane sci-fi story, one of the best I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing. It pays homage to all of the classic sci-fi stories, in particular the ones of the 80s, while managing to masterfully tie them all together in an original story with one jaw-dropping plot twist after another. It is a masterclass in non-linear storytelling, and I'd really like to see you guys break down the plot and storytelling techniques used in the game, for two reasons in particular.
1. There are seriously not enough videos out there analyzing this very niche and relatively unknown game.
2. Much like with Xenogears, you only get to experience this game's mind-screwy rollercoaster of a plot for the first time once, then all you can do is enjoy watching other people experience it for the first time.
Again, might be a bit of a pain to plan out because of how non-linear it is, but I think this game truly deserves the State of the Arc treatment.
I think the biggest difference that will always be present between these translations is that the politeness level + word choice completely obliterates any kind of direct translation from Japanese -> English. In any sentence that uses てめぇ (temee) for example, it would be disingenuous to translate as "You" when the connotation carried by the rudeness-level of that word is more like "You bastard." Especially considering the setting that the creators chose for the game, I think it would be even more unnatural to use Ashikaga-Shogunate era (roughly same time period) Japanese to somehow "convey medieval thought" when for a Japanese speaker that cultural history / memory simply doesn't carry the same historical context. It's a great game, great translation, and I wish these pedants would settle down a little.
Yes yes yes yes
Transliteration misses that context entirely. Especially since English and Japanese are the exact opposites in that we use hyperbole and sarcasm and they use understatement.
"You bastard!" being a common term of endearment in English, vs Japanese when making a direct statement instead of a question can be a grave insult
Great discussion guys - I'm in the process of learning Spanish and a little Portuguese so that short moment in between talking about the two languages' differences was a nice practical reminder haha
I enjoyed the small discussion on grammatical gender, but I'd just like to clarify one thing as I study Linguistics as my major in University.
Grammatical gender is a noun class system, many languages use different ways to classify nouns into different groups sometimes based on conjugation, animacy or in the case of many Indo-European languages Gender. However, grammatical gender as a concept is distinct from the concept of social or biological gender. As such, grammatical gender doesn't necessarily correlate with words that we may socially consider to be masculine or feminine, as it was a system that was created a long time ago in the language to classify nouns based on grammatical features.
Many gender systems actually have a two or three way distinction, as in German (masculine, feminine and neuter) versus French (masculine and feminine). Suffice it to say, there has been some research on whether the grammatical gender has an effect on social gender attribution to words or concepts.
There are some studies that show this to be the case, but there are also many cases in these studies that show outlier cases. This is just my knowledge of the literature that I've seen on the subject in class and in papers.
Either way great video and I was glad I could finally connect some of my knowledge of linguistics in real life!
Thank you again and keep up the great work!
Thank you for providing this context! Do you think that despite the fact that gendered nouns were not intended to classify an object, for instance, as a social or biological gender, that people within those cultures still make that connection anyway?
It happens in some cases.
In french 'un problème' is masculine and 'une solution' is feminine, and people often joke about it.@@michaelcoraybrown
@@michaelcoraybrown Thank you for the reply! It would be hard to come to a definitive answer as this is a question of much debate in the linguistic literature.
There has been a divide in linguistics that started with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis that started the distinction between linguistic determinism vs. linguistic relativity. Basically, linguistic determinism posits that language solely determines perception whereas linguistic relativity posits that it influences it but is merely one factor in a larger equation.
The studies I've seen on the subject basically state that there is some correlation between grammatical gender and stereotypically gendered concepts. Especially in two-gendered languages, such as Spanish and French vs. the three-gendered ones like German. Additionally, a literature review study I was reading found that the gender content of the context or task in which the language was associated mattered, when it was high the association was also higher. I would also posit that this could also be due to the individual projecting their state of mind on the lexical content, as if we assume that the context is the factor driving the association, then the language reflects that; then it would be the mind influencing language in that case rather than the other way around. This would also be supported by the findings that the association is stronger in adults than children, suggesting an effect of socialization and maturity on language use.
Suffice it to say, yes and no. Hahaha sorry it's not really a satisfying answer, but interesting nonetheless.
If you're interested in finding out more there is a lit. review on this by Samuel, Cole & Eacott (2019) called "Grammatical gender and linguistic relativity: A systematic review" that I took a lot of my information from.
Anyway thank you again for the content over the years and I look forward to your next video! Thank you again for the reply and the interesting thought experiment!
Sincerely, Nick
52:17 I can elaborate a bit of this line of young Alain. He used てくれ instead of てください or てくれないか at the end of his dialogue which is a rather abrupt imperative for asking someone to do something for you, compared to the latter two. In the tweet translation "you should lend your strength to my mother", it failed to convey this little imperative nuance.
Exactly. Words might translate the same, but in a culture where saying something directly instead of phrasing it as a question is often seen as an insult, you get a _lot_ of different ways of asking people things.
I wonder if SaGa Frontier 2 had the issue of being too literal? I dropped it fairly on because the translation felt way too economical and the characters came across as really bland. Of course that could also just be the way that the Frontier games are
I've been really waiting for your thoughts on this matter because your series on Final Fantasy Tactics got me into playing the War of the Lions translation as my first introduction to Tactics, at around the same time I was playing FFXIV and the Return to Ivalice raid story. The use of language in both of these really opened my eyes as to what a unique position we are in at this time with Japan putting out so much more fantasy and European-flavored material. I wish more stories would utilize this kind of prose and language.
I do also find it interesting how vitriolic both sides can be on this issue, because I know that I would have gotten much more involved with the "keep it exactly the same" crowd only a few years ago, but have found myself looping around to seeing the merits of the other side and that both have points. I think the issue is that there have been very poor examples in both video games and anime, Fire Emblem Fates being the go-to example for removing quite a bit of dialogue for some characters. As well as things like the Kobayashi Dragon Maid dub taking liberties with the source.
However I do think people are blind-firing a lot of the time, and have caught really good works that should instead be praised in their crosshairs. I just feel like they can be overly enthusiastic and zealous, to the point where it can make their arguments fall apart, such as the thread on display attempting to showcase how "abhorrent" this is.
FFXIV's English version isn't the best example of good localization either because they heavily alter a lot of scenes and dialoged that removes context or changes the emotional value of the scenes. Examples:
- ARR Midgardsormar being a disney villain instead of an ancient dragon.
- Elidibus reciting Shakespeare in a theatrical manner on his deathbed instead of crying his heart out.
- Zero throwing shade on Zenos instead of including important information confirming that Fandaniel actually had a hand in binding her to Zenos into her avatar form.
Then there's the general dialogue having a lot more universal sass regardless of character. It's like everyone has the same personality all of a sudden. This becomes more of an issue with later expansions, probably since the english localization team was given more leeway of how they could alter the script.
The only time it has been to the game's benefit was with Haurchefant, and even then them completely removing his flirtatious side is quite sad because still including a little of it would make him more endearing (and what follows be even more heartbreaking).
How dare Atlus West localize "Yakisoba Angel" instead of "Yakisoba's Anata"? Unforgivable!
The supposed translations here aren't even perfect. For example, at 41:35 In the bottom left, "ああ・・・たしかにそうだな" he translates it as "Hm... It does feel that way", but a word for word translation would be more like "Ah... That's certainly true"
Perfect listening material for me while I agonisingly push a mine cart at a snail's pace in 7 Rebirth
Hey when you're done with the mine cart, do you mind staying late to vacuum up those Mako pockets? Thanks in advance.
@@Majuularyou only do that in the prologue thankfully lol
@@Majuular Sorry but all requests have to go through my boss... Chadley.
And the mini games, the DANG mini games ugh some of em make me wanna throw my controller and I haven't felt that way since I was a kid lol
I don't remember all the mini games being such a pain in the ass in the original
Absolutely LOVE this podcast! The localization is the very reason I pre-ordered the monarch edition! And you guys just proved what an absolute clown the twitter person is.
Respect for your knowledge of the Romance Languages. The gendered noun issue is tricky for even native speakers at times.
Youngsters these days didn't read the bible.
@@SatiZakito I didn't read the King James Bible, (read some of it in Spanish) and still appreciate the UO localization. I do have an appreciation for Shakespeare, but I figure it is mandatory reading in most schools that teach English literature. I don't understand the mentality of a certain segment of Anime/Manga fans. Probably people who don't read books and obsess over Manga and Japanese culture.
@@rdrouynrivThat’s only partly true. Not to get into the details, I would want to keep this civil. Certain localizers are changing aspects of shows that have no business being there. Dragon maid was a glaring issue, where a character changed what she was wearing because people were gossiping about her, the show has her blaming “the patriarchy.” Another show references gamergate. Another show erased the aspect of cross dressers completely in exchange for just making the characters trans.
It’s not a thing that was egregious, but it is more of a grains of sand making a heap. And some of the localizers have grown bolder about their changes over the years. Opting instead of making a good translation, to pushing their activism where it doesn’t belong.
The guy who wrote about UO translation is on the opposite side of the debate, opting for a 1:1 translation, cultural aspects to be left ambiguous.
And I’m happy most people can recognize there is a healthy middle where adding dialects and having changes that don’t fundamentally change the characters can help to enhance what the original author was going for.
@@TheMilhouseExperience Yeah, I've been made aware of the Dragon Maid controversy. That particularly egregious example is the crutch for this anti-localization discourse. The reality is that Funimation dubs have taken liberties and this one caught more attention because they used a buzzword that triggers people online. It isn't really an example of a pervasive trend in Anime because most non Funimation dubs/subs are perfectly serviceable.
@@rdrouynriv *insert The Cartoon Cipher video on Dragon Maid controversy here*
I love these types of episodes. Keep them coming!
As a 25 year old who has better media literacy than the average Joe, I’m very ashamed to I’ve only barely been able to understand Shakespeare. American education system decided I should read books about 9/11 and ‘Tuesdays with Morrie’😒
That's very weird; you never read Catcher in the Rye, Moby Dick, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, Fahrenheit 451, Pride and Prejudice, Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies or To Kill a Mockingbird?
Might be because I'm from New York, but in school we used to also cover movies like Hotel Rwanda and the Iranian/Lebanon/Afghan conflict.
blaming the american education system for your own shortcomings, a tale as old as time
@@lloydirving6209 pretty sure it’s only as old as America lol
Though I will admit that I like your pfp though so I can’t be mad
@@lloydirving6209 "the airbag didn't go off causing me to be paralyzed on half of my body"
"wow, blaming the manufacturer for your own bad driving 🙄"
When they said they weren't gonna say the guy's @ I thought, "oh, how respectful of them", and then as they went on I realized they were just trying to help keep this dude from getting completely dunked on 💀
46:44 As a person who served a church mission in Japan, the language we used to convey religious concepts was straight out of one of the Japanese versions of the Bible (Seishou) was originally translated into Japanese from Dutch (I believe, I may be wrong about that). So many words had to be carefully translated over to the equivalent word in Japanese, otherwise their meaning would be lost entirely. So TL:DR Kamisama in Japanese is the same way you’d say God for Shintoism, Buddhism and Christianity.
I love these kinds of episodes. Keep it up, gents!
Just to clear up a misconception about Christianity not succeeding in Japan...
I've been watching a fair amount of Japanese history videos on UA-cam (not an expert, by the way), and it seems that Christianity -- Catholicism in general, was actually gaining a strong presence in Japan. It wasn't until the Shoguns under Tokugawa saw Christianity as a threat to their rule. It's what gave rise to the term "Hidden Christians" in Japan. In fact, there are still some "Hidden Christians" to this day, carrying on their ancestors' legacy of belief.
On the topic of localization, I am more in favor of the poetic prose and/or changes as long as it keeps the spirit of the original language. When the translation becomes "changes made to translation to suit modern audiences," that's when I'll be against it.
Interesting to listen to. I used to want pure translations when I was younger and believed that Japanese media was perfect and in some ways "superior" (probably all the bad dubs and translations of the 80s/90s), but now that I am older and have consumed more, I see how often ideas get lost when directly translated. You could hear the same exact phrase in Japanese ten different times in a show, and have it translated to something different in English. Sometimes I am amazed at how a translator has been able to pick up so much complexity from the tone of the characters or the situation. A good example is "so desu ne" (そうですね). A translator would be forced to change the English to fit the situation as there are just too many ways that phrase gets used in Japanese.
I always feel that official translations read much better than fan translations (which tend to be more direct). I've recently started reading some translated Japanese novels and light novels, and I find the writing style to be incredibly blunt and sometimes even gives off the feeling of being too easy to read (makes it feel like it is for kids). While this person is assuming the English was changed to "sound smarter" maybe it is more that English readers are unaccustomed to brief and direct literature and subconsciously find it to sound immature. Therefore to make the content feel more mature and serious, it needs to have complexity added to it. This doesn't mean the content is immature, just that culturally we have different writing styles. (I think your point about poetry in the two languages really highlights this well.)
I've had countless arguments on this topic. I'm a Japanese translator myself (I mostly work on machinery and assembly line manuals/documents) and even I have to take certain "creative liberties" to do my job properly. It's a bit difficult to explain but Japanese people as a whole tend to be more visually oriented, they prefer information with diagrams, pictures and the text is usually relegated to concise blocks of information, often resembling lines of code. So when I translate to English I have to do it in a way that grabs attention, sort of like telling a story because otherwise whoever is reading it will get lost following the procedure or it would just not make any sense if I were to do a literal translation.
You can sort of see these similarities on the creative side of things. Straight Japanese comes off as dry and lifeless and a lot of what they say is tied to context. A complaint that I often hear from my Japanese friends is that they think that certain western games like Hades and modern God of War are "too wordy" despite these games not being close to what we consider text heavy like Planescape Torment or other classic CRPGs. So I can see a certain need to make the end product readable especially if it comes from the executive Japanese side and the English publisher side where both sides have enough experience and understand both languages enough to drive the decision to make these big changes.
As a translator of web novels I totally get it! Often when adapting web/light novels to anime and manga, the separate character designer have to do the heavy lifting because the author of the novel itself does a very poor job of describing the characters. Japanese writers are very different with what they focus their attention on.
It really is frustrating seeing most people who argue about this seem to be people who don't speak/read Japanese or are even monolingual and just don't understand how this "complete accuracy" thing is utter nonsense. The people who raise the alarms about "inaccurate" translations or "have taken unnecessary liberties" that DO speak Japanese I feel are just angry that it's not how THEY feel something should've been translated and take advantage of folks who don't know any better. Because anyone who speaks more than one language knows that everyone translates things differently in their own head. I've never come across any two people translate ANYTHING the exact same way.
So this gives you the excuse to add crap that's not in the original script?
@@williampounds5191 I was just arguing with an idiot using the same "yOu dOn'T uNdErStAnD jApAnEsE" nonsense just the other day and all he was doing to argue his point is using a weak "iT cOnVeYs tHe tOnE" cope.
Seriously, stop acting like you guys understand Japanese any better.
@@Miyakolover In most games, these translations/localizations are made for an average native English speaker in mind, not an online weeb with passing Japanese knowledge from anime. There's no grand conspiracy to undermine "the original author", and money is the main motivator for whatever changes they decide to do.
The devs give you the translation that they want you to see. If you don't like it just learn Japanese and be on your way, this happens on every single industry with every single language that has been translated.
Great Topic gents. Really love these one-off episodes. I tend to look at games with "strange titles" as just something that I don't have context of.....because I havent played the game yet. In some cases, the title could be made clear after we play the game. The need for all details/understanding of a game and all of its parts BEFORE it is released...I wont say its pointless, but rather, I don't get it.
Amazing talk, I strongly prefer the English translation. Must buy for sure.
Well compare to the translation of fire emblem fate where a full emotional support conversation was replace with just three dot back to back, I found unicorn overlord translation quite true to the meaning of the japanese work. It just add a Time period context which gave more authenticity. AT 51:00, concerning Alain and Joseph convo, I think it's more to show Joseph's state of mind as the person he swears to protect (the Queen), gave an order that contrary to his oath.
Fates (rightfully criticized) translation has done irreparable damage to some people's minds.
In japan, medieval settings are not ‘actually’ medieval in the sense of speech, because for the most part it is more of a shorthand for fantasy ‘game,’ than it is an ‘actual depiction’ of medieval times. The way they speak in japanese is not an equivalent perse to the ‘way’ of classic medieval ‘speech’ and uses a more ‘approachable’ japanese speech for the modern player. That type of outlook is not the same outside of japan, so there is a more ‘common’ expectation of medieval speech in medieval settings, even if just fantasy. I can understand why some people would want a ‘simpler translation’, but games are made for wider audiences. Like, if i’m trying to market a game to a wide demographic i wouldnt just use a language/culture specific term like ‘tsundere’ or ‘kuudere’ directly because i cant expect the audience to ‘already know’ or break ‘immersion’ with a parenthesis explaining what it means because the game is not trying to teach the audience japanese and it’s not and absolute necessity to use those words. A ‘normal’ player wouldnt be thinking ‘this character probably meant kuudere’ when they see the dialogue, which is a majorityof the target demographic. But, if it was marketed specifically for ‘fans’ of anime/manga/japanese media, then it wouldnt be a problem to use those words- i feel.
@@abaque24Right. A fantasy character in a Japanese work in a world that looks like medieval Europe could absolutely say a line that would be roughly analogous to "Aw, this dog is totes adorbs." No Japanese person would bat an eye at some young lady talking about a dog like that in a fictional fantasy world.
But if you transpose that directly into a game directed at English speakers? English has a cultural expectation for *how people talk in european fantasy works* - and said young lady would violate those cultural expectation. The line wouldn't stand out as strange in Japanese, so it should not stand out as strange in English either.
@@XCC23 yuuup :)
@@XCC23 thats a made up issue, both frieren and Dungeon meshi are japanese medieval fantasy shows airing this season and no one is complaining "why dont they speak in ye olde english?"
I completed the demo, a tad over 8hrs, and thought it was fine. Heading straight to the nearest brick and mortar game retailer immediately after work on March 8th! ❤️🦄⚔️🏹😃🎮
Getting mines from Walmart since I work there off Saturday too. Thank god
I've played some games with "accurate" translations that were riddled with very strange wording and were straight-up boring to read through... and yet that's the kind of translation the subject of this episode seems to want. I'm 100% on board with the stance that as long as a translation is conveying the same information as the source in a way that makes the new audience understand it, it is a good localization.
Nah. Butchered personalities, atmosphere and tone is never covering the same message. Stop being a localization apologist.
Very interesting, I think you have a lot of good arguments here. Nice to hear you give credit to the person you’re making counter points to as well, good nuance.
Also, however technically questionable the Twd Woosly translation of FFVI bay be, I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s MY Final Fantasy (III) and I love the dialogue ❤️
As someone admittedly on the more critical side of the recent debate regarding localization (particularly of Japanese media), I have to admit that I frequently have to explain to people how unreasonable it is to expect a 100% "direct" translation.
Language simply doesn't work that way, *especially* not a highly contextual language like Japanese. This is especially obvious when it comes to sayings or idioms, what makes perfect intuitive sense in one language may sound like utter gobbledygook in another. A degree of adaptation is always necessary.
What is not necessary, however, is the localizers (whose job is it to try and remain as faithful to the _spirit_ of the original text as possible) thinking they know better than the writers what their stories are actually about and putting words in the characters' mouths that they objectively did not say. (Note that when I say "words", I do not mean rephrasing, I've already acknowledged that is often required.)
As others have pointed out, this is a problem that has existed (especially in anime and video game translations) for a long time. The difference is that while in the 90s and 2000s it mainly consisted of stripping IPs of their "Japaneseness" in a misguided attempt to appeal to the casual American audience (like the infamous example of the 4Kids dub of the Pokemon anime turning onigiri into jelly doughnuts), nowadays it often takes on the form of sociopolitical statements and references that were never present in the original work. (Funimation was especially guilty of this, adding in snide remarks about Gamergate in Prison School, or the "patriarchal demands" placed on women in Dragon Maid, among others, completely out of the blue)
Regardless of your political affiliation or lack thereof - this wasn't OK then, and it isn't OK now.
Apologies for my longwindedness, but needless to say, this whole subject is a landmine to try to navigate without stepping on anybody's toes... and I have almost assuredly done so anyway. But, at least I can honestly say I've tried to add my two cents. Let's remain civil, shall we?
I like the 'Unicorn Overlord' name, for me it's kind of like 'The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog'. It inspires awe and raises so many questions.
I think The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog is a way better title. It’s got an intriguing verb and an exotic sounding place. Unicorn Overlord is just a pairing of two nouns that don’t fit so well together imo
@@Y-two-KWhich word is the intrigueing verb?
Does anyone have insight into exactly what changes between difficulty settings? Because if it's lazy stuff like you deal less damage and they deal more I won't bother. But if it just stuff that makes you use the system more cleverly/increased tactics/more clever AI then i'll go for the hardest one.
I played the demo between the middle difficuilty and harder one of the three and i noticed the following changes.
On the hardest difficuilty you have more enemies present on the map with some of them hiding in the woods for an ambush.
You earn less valor points for capturing towns and garrisons, meaning you have to plan out their usage more.
Every unit has basic tactics enabled, for example mages will always prioritise Armored units and archers will always aim for the fliers.
Bosses use the items they drop making for surprisingly diificuilt encounters.
When I first heard the title "Unicorn Overlord" I was expecting some kinde of meme-game. I'm glad, I was wrong!
English has went through several changes from Old English > Middle English > Great Vowel Shift > Modern English. The Middle English and pre GVS English feels like you should understand it...but its just doesn't compute.
My 2 cents - I consider intent and sentiment to be the broad strokes of writing.
Both of these were touched on here, but to add a little I'd look deeper at the "That was Scary" line.
The intent is let us know Scarlett is afraid - and whatever else comes with that (inexperienced, immature etc...)
The SENTIMENT is the fundemntal feeling to convey, which IS done in both lines.
Whether she is "a little scared" or "really scared" doesn't matter all that much as long as we understand that sentiment.
A radical example would be the original stating "that was scary" going to "well, that wasn't fun" of course that's unlikely, but humour me. That line COMPLETELY misses the mark and would lead us to believe her to be much more confident.
I'll leave it there though.
And to end on a high note - that foal and sun quote had me creasing big time!
This episode reminded me of the ff14 localization and the work they do in CBU3! And im sure people have issues with the work they do in that long game 😂😂
Yeah this discussion reminded me of harchefant and his characterization drama. Though in ff14 it was more egregious than the ones shown in the Twitter thread. I like EN version of harche but it is very obviously a different character.
As long as localization is done in good faith, it's great.
There has been a recent kerfuffle where bad actors have been injecting their social/political opinions into the media they localize.
We could do without that sort of localization.
I may be incorrect but I'm thinking that the localization was handled by 8-4. If so or even if it was handled in house or by another team I absolutely love what I've played and seen so far. More fantastic work from a masterful team(s). 😊
I don't know how much of a me problem this is but I find strictly literal JP -> EN translations hard to follow, stilted and weird in general. I often think, even with some of the examples you showed how "nobody speaks like this" or "that's a strange way of saying that". And this is the reason why I'm put off by a lot of Japanese media aimed at teenagers. So from the point of view of someone that grew out of anime and otaku culture after middle school I quite appreciate it when the characters speak like regular people, even if these people come from an 18th century book.
It's not just you. It's a natural result of transliteration, specifically with English because English grammar is very weird compared to the rest of the world. For example, there aren't many other languages that place descriptive terms BEFORE the subject that they describe.
@@jacobmonks3722Exactly this. And how people often leave in the English versions the "..." that often is at the end of Japanese sentences.
It makes the English especially annoying to read 😂
Watched this yesterday, great content, congrats, will try to chech more of your videos.
Perhaps for the analysis of some tweets like the replies to Yasumi Matsuno, it's good to keep in mind that most social media posts are impulsive and not really thought about, and just maybe, you're overanalyzing those, but that's totally fine, this was a great episode.
Those discussions always bring me back to that Netflix Italian localisation of Evangelion that was so convoluted it had to be taken down real fast. It was Dante’s vocabulary with Cicero’s levels of grammar complexity. Totally detached from the media it was suppose to convey. I always wonder, what went on down there to get it out like that.
Anyway, assuming bad intent out of the box is simply unhealthy. Video-game localisers don't take master classes in manipulation propaganda from a secret cabal...
"There is a freaking cross on his shield!" Excellent! loved it!
I am a lot more blunt in this matter maybe because my sibling is a translator and we have constant discussions about this kind of things. This person is just like the armchair psychologist. Have no idea what translation and localization is. Liking or not liking is a personal preference. But saying it is not accurate is just plain wrong.
And worse! They think the translator have any saying it it? Any decision power AT ALL? They have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how a translation / localization workflow work!
They We know bad translations: How many episodes of FFT you did? (and yes, I remember the reasons)
I still shake my head at the fact that they named that game Triangle Strategy... I mean it's my opinion but that sounds so robotic. It's like those anime shows that just have a plot summary statement as their title. I know why historically they got there but I'll just hard pass on all that. Give me some artistry. Some poetry. Some something to hook me. Say what you want about the localization here but I can appreciate it's being done with a sensibility.
In regards to gender nuances in diferent languages, sometimes it get's even trickier in the "same" language because of cultural/national factors. In portuguese from Portugal, Playstation is refered as feminine, and brazilian portuguese as masculine, despite the fact they're both using an english word to describe a particular console (so, in fact, it is the word console that as that gender duality). Yup, good luck with that Portuguese Mike!
A great martial arts philosopher, Jeffrey Jarrett, sums up this topic perfectly "Creative is subjective"
Translation is an art.
Sometimes art is fantastic and additive to the product.
Sometimes art is garbage that someone just pushes out to get it done.
Can’t wait to find out where this lands.
This was a great conversation and I appreciate Casen defending how people spoke back in the day. Its beautiful and requires contempltion at times. I help University students understand the Bible so this was a really valuable convetsation in helping people understand language.
This is the second best demo I've ever played.
The name in a way is genius. It helped it stand out and made people look closer.
It reminds me of Robot Unicorn Attack
I seem to remember a video by Casen where he gave tips on learning languages. Is that still up?
It got removed for some reason. It wasn’t up for that long.
@@BasicSneedEducation weird it was removed. I remember anki being a big part of it (I cannot for the life of me learn with Anki decks and hate them)
@@Y-two-K Unfortunately I was only able to watch it once before it was removed. Yeah I think he mentioned Anki and doing sentence/word mining or something.
@@BasicSneedEducation Casen's video "How I learned Japanese" is still in this channel. It was uploaded about 5 years ago and it's still around (for me anyway)
2 days till release!!!
Makes me wonder which games if any have a 1:1 literal translation. Of course, if you do that 100% of the time, sometimes the English will sound unnatural. Though Unicorn Overlord is one of those examples where they add much more.
I related SO HARD to upper management adjusting the localization, and me groaning through my teeth, and trying to appease both parties. This DOES HAPPEN!!
Another thing to consider is that the script isn't just translated line by line - the entire script is looked over and then the localization team decides in what way each line should be translated - as it relates to the rest of the script.
I've heard that in anime, writing is necessarily more dramatic and can lead to different writing tones, which might be one reason anime live action adaptations feel off or different for example. Needs to be adapted to the target
I don't have any skin in the game here (I'm fluent enough in Japanese to read a novel or explain Hegel; never play the English localizations), but I think translating the Japanese very closely into English woudn't have produced a very positive effect. The Japanese writing is basically fine, fairly perfunctory and formulaic. The characters' personalities aren't especially differentiated in their speech patterns. There's little of the flair of a Hideo Kojima or Yuji Horii, and, even if there were, you wouldn't be able to transplant that directly into English. The original complainant's own translations were more 'accurate' to the words, but there was a further layer of nuance that they failed to communicate (the use of the formal suffering-passive voice in the first example, the masculine exclamation marker 'zo' at the end of "I leave it to you", the familiar/vulgar use of the pronoun 'o-mae' in one of the other exchanges etc).You will never, ever capture the entire sense of the Japanese script, so you may as well make it its own thing. I don't personally like the faux "Shakespearian" type English scripts because it always seems tin-eared and inauthentic, but it seems like a valid route to take to me. I thought FFXVI's totally brilliant localization solved the problem better by leaning into England's regional speech patterns - more games should do that instead.
The best localizers fundamentally understand this, thank goodness.
With fan translations of manga, for example, I always prefer the groups who aren't worried about being the very first to get an English version out, and instead take some time to make it actually read well
Your last point about including regional dialects is something Xenoblade 2 did. Characters from certain countries have different regional accents like upper England, Wales, Scotland, or Australian. While its English localization is also the subject of criticism, I think that alone shows there was a strong effort to immerse the player in the setting in English.
The thing that guy wanted to make a point about is in japanese its not translated like the king james bible. He wanted it to sound like the japanese version, which is just talking normally like an anime. I think that was the point
Yes, we explained this in the video (how Japanese isn't written in an older form, and explained why). That's also why we made the caveat that if you aren't a fan of that style of language, that's a legitimate complaint. That's not all the guy is claiming, though. He's claiming the translation is inaccurate from the original and is an example of arrogance from the translators. Those claims are the ones we are combating here, not the preference for a more straightforward, modern language.
No look at his bio he's hyper vigilant about censorship
Love the knee jerk comments in here before even listening to the discussion. Regardless, great work guys.
Pre comment then make a post comment you know how it is 😊
Am I the only one who actually really likes the name Unicorn Overlord? I think it's cool...it has this kind of regal quality to it
There's a great UA-camr called Sora the Troll, who is Japanese and bilingual and worked as a translator for anime. He has a lot of interesting things to say on this subject and is worth checking out.
I deleted an earlier comment because you guys ended up covering the point I was making regarding the ongoing "bad faith localizer" controversy having much too wide a net, and this game being unfairly caught up in it when it seems to be a perfect example of the exact right way to do a translation. I grew up very similarly with the King James Bible and classic literature as well, so this language is music to my ears. Can't wait to dig into this game. And I am VERY excited about your analysis of Planescape: Torment, it was one of the first games I thought of when you debuted this new podcast format
Abhorrent is like...the Ghost Stories dub, or something.
I don't know if this is a 'loss of accuracy' as much as it is just made unclear, but for the first thing:
There's two things here: the move from uncertainty to certainty with he removal of 'I think' and
the changing of 'at our current strength' made this into a situation where I actually played the game differently
by overestimating Renault once I got to that point of the game.
I think I would've liked "Casting the gauntlet at Renault's feet *now* would only send us to an early grave".
The gameplay implication of 'you just need to level up a bit before you do this' would be a little more clear.
I like all the other translation changes. A lot of them are early enough in the game that you actually need
the extra dialogue to differentiate characters from each other, else they'd mostly sound the same.
BTW: Lore wise, The unicorn plays an important part in the games story.
There is a god, who gave a ring to the first king/queen, and the unicorn is the one that unlocks its power, and so on and so forth.
The overlord part ? No idea 😂
I like that, cuz in bravely default ‘defaulting’ is both a mechanic (saving turns) and thematic (abstaining from playing your ‘part,’ abstaining from fulfilling your fate) both in a ‘corageous’ way XD
Overlord mean ruler. You are a prince
I never understood why people thought the name was bad imo.
My guess is there is a Unicorn Ring (that the hero holds) and an Overlord Ring (held by the villain). The title screen has the o's in the words in the title as two rings intertwined. Just a guess though.
@@nicklaserbeam ohh that would actually make some sense
This game has really thrown me for a loop. I don't really like the story so far, the art style or have much connection to the characters, but I absolutely love this game. Kinda hoping the rest grows on me as I keep going, but the overall game experience is incredible. Honestly,, I think I just respect any game willing to draw this much inspiration from Ogre Battle... that means something, especially in this day and age of gaming.