Is Squall DEAD? | Final Fantasy VIII Analysis | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубліковано 13 лют 2024
- Is Squall dead? Is he just dreaming? We are about to take a (quite) critical look at the Squall is dead theory. Why? Why does Squall have to be dead? Is Mario dead? All those mushrooms and turtles sure seem to indicate so. Is Final Fantasy VIII too Fantasy and not based enough in reality for you? Do we feel the need to bring fantasy down to the materialist, hyper-rational world in order to enjoy it, or can it just stand on its own two feet? Or, maybe to hit a little closer to home... are YOU dead?
Time Codes:
1.
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Most people: No, shut up, this is stoopid.
Casen: OK, but there are circles and in the ancient dinosaur times, circles were a phallic symbol meaning death and rebirth. Ice age killed the dinosaurs and what supposedly killed Squall????
Is how I imagine this will go... 👀🤞
😆 😂
Accurate, and also valid - Casen has made me think much more closely about things that I formerly took for granted, and I am so happy about that!
Oh my god. I have never clicked on something so fast in my life. I can not wait to hear both of you go H.A.M. on this bloody theory. Also, been putting my notes together the last few days for Planescape: Torment! Looking forward to recording with you guys soon!
Planescape is confirmed? My god that podcast will be legendary, what a game.
NO WAY YOU'RE DOING IT WITH THEM, THAT'S AWESOME!
I started playing Planescape: Torment a few weeks ago and then saw that Mike and Casen are gonna do it next, which is such a great coincidence. Really looking forward to it but I still need to finish the game (I just got done with the part where Morte gets kidnapped).
So glad you’re joining them Max! You guys have got to be my two favorite content creators. Your video about it has been in my backlog for a bit. This is the perfect opportunity to actually play the game while following the videos as they get released instead of watching them way after the fact!
I can’t wait for the collaboration
The Arc AND Max!? 😭❤ I never knew I needed a piece of content in my life so much!
The confusion regarding Griever can be blamed on the very lackluster English translation, I think. In the Japanese original, it is implied that Ultimecia draws Greiver from Squall directly (the same way the player has been able to draw GFs from enemies), and summons him against him as a form of psychological warfare. She is perverting something that to Squall is a symbol of strength and pride into a monster hellbent on serving the sorceress.
In the original text, she says something along the lines of "I will summon whom you believe to be the most powerful. The stronger you believe him to be, the stronger he will become." while summoning Griever, which in the English version has been reduced to "The most powerful GF. You shall suffer:"
FF8 suffers a lot from a not-great English translation, especially regarding Ultimecia, who's had half of her dialogue replaced with maniacal laughter. This is very blatant in the final confrontation, but even as early as Disc one, Edea's speech in Deling City has been simplified drastically in the English version and has lost its meaning. It's very unfortunate. I don't necessarily want a full-blown FF8 remake, but I'd love for them to invest into a new localization, that does a better job conveying the original text.
This does explain why Ultimecia didn’t make a splash per se with the English audience. Contrary there’s Kefka, who got something of a personality glow up courtesy of Ted Woolsey and became a far more compelling villain compared to how the Japanese fanbase sees him…
I came here to post this myself, but you did a much better job of explaining it than I would have. Even in the English translation, the text you get when you use Scan on Griever explicitly states this. I like to compare it to the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters.
the biggest enemy of this game is the garbage translation
It’s a shame that they didn’t retranslate it when they released the remaster a few years back
@@eviloctuplet True, only small difference is that Stay Puft existed as a mascot in the Ghostbusters universe and Griever didn't, Squall apparently made it up which always felt weird to me. I mean, for all the imagery surrounding it in FF8, you would think it was a real being, something that made an impression on Squall, heck he even named it and you never ever see it, only Ultimecia's corrupted version. I still wonder if they had a backstory for it that was ultimately scrapped in the end because it does feel like Griever was meant as an integral part of the story, part of Squall and an obtainable GF.
Mario is Ultimecia confirmed.
40:30 I remember when Rinoa is hanging on for dear life, off the side of Garden, and one of the other characters says "It has to be Squall that saves her."..... like... what?!
For peak romance!
As someone who loves FFVIII to bits, considers it their favorite Final Fantasy and one of the best games ever, that whole sequence is by far the most difficult to defend. If it's even possible to do so! I'll easily go to bat for the orphanage scene, surviving the missile base, Time Compression, etc., but the insanity involved in the garden battle is truly something else.
When I reach that scene in replays, sometimes I just imagine the whole battle and danger to Rinoa has been created by everyone just to force Squall to see his feelings for her.
@@valdegard Agree. I love FF VIII and i'm absolutely fine with the orphanage thing (they are 'the children of fate', the 'fated circle' and Edea has knowledge of what's going to happen etc.) and i'm fine with the time compression thing (this is a series with evil trees and giant whale sin monsters, i don't care) but the garden vs garden battle is just dumb fun with some bad writing. I get that they were trying to show how conflicted Squall was with his duty to the garden and his personal regard for Rinoa but the writing places him in an impossible situation and his teammates are absolute idiots.
Like, the fact he’s responsible for dozens of not hundreds of SEED lives and his friends tell him to abandon command (because they can’t save Rinoa themselves), definitely feels groan worthy.
Love watching these two dudes talk about FF, it's been a while but feels like coming back home.
I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but Kitase did retract his statement on the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory, saying that many people worked on the scenario and that the theory could of been implemented from their point of view while writing the game. It got quite the reaction, as he did this during a panel.
Whoa I've never heard of this, even though that's always kinda how I thought of it. Do you know when and which panel that was?
@@Karifean ua-cam.com/video/k8asSQorSng/v-deo.htmlsi=4pIyWyxf9cFnGdGe
@@Karifean that's the video that got translated 👍
@@Karifean It was during a Dissidia Final Fantasy NT promotion event in 2018. I saw that Kitase's statements went unnoticed outside the Japanese community so I translated it to English here a while back: ua-cam.com/video/k8asSQorSng/v-deo.html
Personally I don't really subscribe to the theory but given so many people are invested in it I thought at least they'd appreciate it and it would generate some discussion.
Actually the two parts I found most interesting was:
1. The fact that Kitase felt the need to address it like this. It's pretty out of character for him. It makes me wonder what his motivation was. He hasn't done this for any of the other theories he's debunked (which there are like 6 or 7 of that he's commented on).
2. That this further proves to people how much Nomura was involved in the writing process even back then. He wasn't "just a character designer" as some people like to say for some reason.
@reibitto really appreciate the translation. Thank you for doing that, I find it fascinating that he decided to do this
That video description is gold 😂
Yup!
Lol "time codes" nothing haha
Two thoughts:
Kitase may have been director / producer, but one thing ive gathered from learning about game making back in the mid-90s is that there was no such thing as a solo story author. These games were heavily parallalized, partially due to the "make in a year" mandate. There is always a chance that ideas sneak in at the inception that the producer / director doesnt alter later.
That leads to the second point: FF8 was weirdly paced and does feel like disc 1 was made by a different team than the remaining discs. The heroes journey and super-high fantasy elements do appear mostly at disc 2 or later. Disc 1 is a weirdly grounded high fantasy FF that ends in the heroes failure. The story then resets, and Squall is now the destined hero.
Plus, that ice blast. Since the last time we saw a character stabbed through the chest in an FF game, it was FF7...it was weird that he's ok.
Disc 1 is like a new take on high fantasy put into a modern tone. Disc 2+ is Final Fantasy. Story and world building wise.
I dont know if two writers put the transition between discs 1 and 2 so weird on purpose but they never fully explained it to the team, or the team could have been trying something clever and had a great idea for a game about a special forces team that fails at a mission and die, then decided to make the typical Final Fantasy arc.
The way this kind of multi-tiered story writing generally works is not so much that one writer will deal with one stretch, another writer on a second portion, and another writer on a third, but more "levelled". You might have one or two main writers that do broad strokes on the overarching story and themes (think Scenario level), then, as you drill down and focus on details, another team of writers that deal with exactly how those story beats play out (think Scene level), then drilling down even further, you get the writers who do things like actually writing dialogue (think Character and Dialogue level). A lot of this can be done at different points and have a lot of crossover, like your Scenario level story writers might work with a character design team before Scenario is really locked down to create the characters and their arcs and themes at a high level, and then it all gets integrated and mashed in at a later date along with world and lore design as the project comes together.
Wish ye went in on the Rinoa & Ultimecia theory more its the only theory that really made me think after and would've given it such a bitter sweet ending. Almost like they were stuck in a loop paradox with Ultimecia after she finally remembers Squall and before dying and gose back to a period where they were together. Which would explain why you seen faceless Squall at the end with her trying to remember.
Also Kitase had since withdrawn his statement saying the theory was actually possible due to the amount of writers on the team (most likely Enix had him say that after tho to keep it open if they decide to do anything with it down the line)
I wish I could hit the like button more than once. Honestly these theory crafting 1 offs interludes whatever u wanna call it between games is such a great idea!
I like the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory more because it adds layers to the story rather than erasing it and making it impotent. I don’t see it as anything but a massive anticlimax. The other theory implies both the dragon and the princess are one and the same. It can be relatable for people who have had ambivalent relationships to a certain degree.
I remember coming across this theory in high school and even at the time I thought it sounded ridiculous, hearing it again as an adult is WILD, it sounds so much worse and comes across as grasping at the thinnest of straws in order to concoct this absurdity. It was a lot of fun hearing you guys carefully deconstruct it.
Oh and nah, I don't dream of cell phones lol.
I look at it like most conspiracy theories, they take a nugget of truth and discredit it the more they try to explain it.
The occams razor is if ff7 established cut scenes are different than fight scenes with Aerith then the natural next step for such ambitious creators would be the main character in ff8 aka Squall.
All I'm saying is the simpler the explanation the more plausible it is whether it ends in conspiracy or not, and the creators wanting his death to be ambiguous to the player is ingenious as well as simple as long as they nail the ending....which they did whether you choose time compression or natural death.
The point about remembering early game costumes is spot on. I’m replaying FF Tactics, just got to Chapter 4 and do not remember the Ramza outfit change whatsoever.
Beyond that. In disc 1, we actually get hints of Sorceress Adel, not directly.
You are told that about 17 years ago. All form of communication got scrambled and over air transmission was impossible. You hear talking walking back to two SeeD cadets talking in the entrance corner before talking to Cid and Quistis.
Later on, you are met with a scrambled imagine on the monitor of the TV station.
If you read the text, you can literally read out Adel's talking telepathically. It reads very eerily "You will never forget me" and a whole bunch of stuff that's hard to make out.
Ever since Adel has been trapped in space, she's been disrupting air waves signals telepathically.
There's more text to read than just that but we can make a sure bet that it is Adel's doing.
Edea, also seemed normal prior to the TV Station event.
Something happened between when they were able to put the TV Station online and suddenly Edea behaving very oddly.
Even the President was taking by shock at her speech at the end of disc 1. Do you honestly think the president would put someone in a significant position if she posed a threat to his lifelong ruling? Of course not. Something happened to Edea at the TV Station where the signals that transmitted as scrambled jargon suddenly switch to her being possessed by Sorceress Adel and by extension Sorceress Ultimecia.
We can dive in the multiverse of alternate time lines as Ultimecia attempts to move backwards in time to change the events that unfolded to achieve time compression.
We know that Ultimecia can only go back in time in other people's memories using a machine Odine created to mimic Ellone's powers to send people back in time in other people's memories and alter events.
So let's say the "Disc 1" timeline is a timeline where Sorceress Adel is sealed forever in space and she never crashed to Earth, as that was the case before her intervention and involvement in putting her consciousness backwards.
Ultimecia's future changes when she comes back to herself in her consciousness similar to events changed in Laguna's timeline after Squall timeline in the present.
So the two timelines exist side by side of one another and events are changed and takes effect immediately, so there's no multiple timelines as the altered events changes the future at the same time as the story progresses. Makes sense? Cool. So there's no multiple timelines as those simply get altered, like editing a text on Facebook rather than reposting the text. Basically, Ultimecia's editing the past events and it changes the outcome like editing a text.
So in Disc 1, Adel is still sealed in Ultimecia's timeline, Ultimecia's uses Adel to put herself back in time and use the perfect location of moon and Earth to scramble signals from Adel's consciousness, Ultimecia's took the machine to go back in time I'm Adel's sealed body consciousness... And we know sorceress can't fully die until they've passed on their powers so part of Adel has to still be alive in that future... To send herself to Adel's mind and then send a signal back to Earth after the TV Station gets back online and send her consciousness to Edea of the present.
This theory makes sense as both Edea and Rinoa's mind control gets disposed of immediately after Adel's release from her pod. As Adel has regained full control of her mind as her body falls to Earth... Meaning, Ultimecia lost her connection to Adel as by changing the timeline that Adel is no longer sealed in space but fallen to Earth, freeing both other Sorceress I'm the process. The events removes from the on out Sorceress Ultimecia ability to change the current present of achieving time compression.
Everything from then on relies on Seifer's success to complete Ultimecia's mission to reality.
It's also possible that Ultimecia may still have control over Adel but it's hard to say in the game and she's defeated quickly, we know Ellone sends the Sorceress consciousness back in time so it's entirely probable that the connection was never severed but rather Ultimecia is controlling Adel from then on.
As to why Squall and gang deliberately helped Ultimecia achieve Time Compression rather than ending it there at Disc 3 is unknown but they wanted to put an end to Ultimecia's evil schemes and traveling to the future was the only way to do so.
Thank you for doing this. Been waiting for a long time. I still like pondering the possibility. It's certainly easier to wrap your head around than the actual story.
On the no wound in the supposed death dream of Squall I'd like to notice that one of the most noticeable design element of Squall is a scar across his face, a relatively new scar at this point if their intention was to tell us Squall doesn't find wounds it should have because he is in a dream then a much more striking way to comunicate us that would have been making said scar disappear misteriously
Wasn't it explained that Ultimecia pulls Griever out of Squall, from his idea of ultimate strength.
When you scan it in battle, you get that text. But Griever is also the name of ring that Squall wears around his neck and gives to Rinoa before the battle of the Garden.
Yeah she junctions herself to the thing squall pictures as the strongest in order to defeat them
I love these "Mike and Casen talk about cool stuff" one-off episodes =D It was really fun discussion. I've always hated this theory (doubly so after your podcast explained a lot of the themes and ideas present in VIII to me), so my reaction is a lot like Casen's. But listening to your discussion, it did make me wonder if maybe this is actually what they're doing with Zack in FFVIIR - getting the perspective of the death dreamer, alongside the real world party XD
Listening to this theory again, I still like it. But it's weird that he never brought up total recall as a similar example of being in a dream.
In disc 1 we fight Elvoret, a zombie pretending to be the president, a giant wasp, flans, bombs, the tri-winged spinning bat things, and probably dozens more I'm forgetting
My only criticism with your evaluation is that creator testimony is not always true. Authors lie all the time, and I've uncovered these fibs in my personal in depth research of individual creators.
Narratives do not live in the author's mind after they are released. They are shared and interpreted. This does not eliminate the need for hierarchy in those evaluations, and I think your assessments are well founded, but I would be wary of defaulting to creator's words uniformly.
We know that Seifer came to Edea because of his dreams of being the Sorceress Knight... Which we later on realized it was based on a book that a movie was made that stared Laguna in it.
The Squall is dead theory claims that we only get that reveal later on in future discs. It is only made more explicit in future discs.
However, at the very beginning in disc 1, you can go to the library and see which book has been taken out. The book Sorceress Knight was taken out by Seifer. Furthermore, Seifer's first confrontation says that it was his dream to be the Sorceress Knight.
Again, another bogus claim from the bogus Squall is dead theory.
I think people who make theories like this and enjoy reading theories like this aren't trying to rationalize everything or try to make everything logical sense. It's like reading a creepypasta or an SCP page. We like to read theories like this and think about it because it's fun, not necessarily because we need to fill plot holes. I don't believe in this theory, but I definitely enjoyed my time reading through it all. And it's a fun "have you heard about this theory?" conversation starter if I encounter anybody who's played it.
Still, Tolkien had plenty of magic where Gandalf raised his hand... And something cool happened. Other writers like Sanderson or Goodkind create rules for magic. One style isn't better.
Yea LOTR had tons of magic. Galadriel had quasi time dilation powers in Lothlorien and she was just a really powerful Noldor elf. Gandalf was essentially an angel in human form.
@@ivanvonbewski Galadriel wasnt just a really powerful Noldor Elf. She was taught by and studied with Melian the Maiar for a time which is why she is so powerful along with the fact she’s one of few elves who saw the light of the two trees of Valinor. She also doesn’t have “quasi time dilation powers” either, that’s a power granted to her by Nenya, one of the rings of power.
I've had a cell phone in a dream. Usually in the dream, I'm frantically trying to call someone but I have the clumsiest thumbs ever and keep pressing the wrong things. I'm bummed now because I was pretty intrigued for a second that cell phones mysteriously don't show up in dreams lol. But nah, they have for me and probably many other people.
Love the abstraction bit. FF7 Cloud falls for a mile and can’t believe he’s ok after landing on flowers, or Tifa being cut by a sword bigger than her and bouncing down some stairs like a bouncy ball… double dead the whole time.
huh I thought this was gonna be about how Squall appears to die at the end of the game, and even though he appears with Rinoa at the very end of the credits it's left ambiguous as to whether he is actually there or she is imagining him. Frankly the theory that he dies at the end of Disc 1 is just too fanciful for me. It just doesn't make any contribution to the story to have Squall imagining the rest of the game. I admit that FF8 has some story flaws that contribute to this theory more than other entries in the series, but it doesn't hold any water
I’m with you. Totally agree.
Yeah, I totally think an argument for him dying during that scene where he's trying to remember Rinoa at the end holds a lot more water. And I think would serve the game's themes. Then it's up to whether we believe Rinoa was able to reverse engineer the time compression to undo it, or nullify it somehow with sorceress powers or something so that he's alive at the end, but it seemed like creator intention to make it ambiguous what with the camera losing battery right before, so we were clearly meant to be thinking about that possibility then.
Same here
Im actually really loving these little interim episodes, would be cool to see you guys break up long game series with more little one off episodes like this
I remember coming across that website around 12 -14 years ago. I read the whole thing one afternoon.
I like the premise of the theory but only as a thought experiment. I would never take it as canon or an acceptable explanation for the game's story.
Honestly, and I think I wrote something similar on the website, it takes WAY MORE than an ice spell to defeat one of our FF protagonists. I understand there's a lot of ludonarrative dissonance when it comes to the normal battles (that's more gameplay), but even in the boss fights our characters survive much more dangeorus stuff.
I mean, think about it, the VERY FIRST trial on this game is going for Ifrit. A full GF/Summon entity is the first boss of this game. I'm pretty pretty sure ifrit can deal, and probably dealt, more damage than Edea. And again, it was Squall's first mission.
I've had entirely phone-based dreams. Dreams about receiving unwanted phone calls. Or phone calls that never connect. Dreams that took place in text message. Dreams where I could not read a text message. Anxiety dreams about missing phones. Although to be fair some phone-based dreams do not feature a phone but are within the phone - as a kind of Wired Lain VR entity maybe, where the act of text communication is indistinguishable from a personal conversation. I am not a lucid dreamer, generally (and the times I've had lucid dreams the lucidity did not come with much control) but I've had strong dream recall for most of my life, and also, I've done my fair share of psychedelic drugs + my sleep schedule is erratic, so generally my dream-life is more active than most people I've talked dream-shop with. Now, funny enough (or tragically enough), I have an amputee brother, and maybe one day I'll remember to ask him about phantom limb dreams sometime, but he's never volunteered anything on the subject so I haven't asked.
Almost broke my keyboard clicking so fast
I was just listening to the FF8 breakdown on the way to my job this morning. Can't wait to listen to this one as well.
Do you guys have merch or something? I would like to support but I'm not a huge fan of subscriptions.
You know something the real entertainment comes from seeing how your two personalities hit it off, like the inception phone.
I never dreamt of cell phones. Also, man. As much as I wait Planescape, I can't deny that this was a really fun one to listen to.
I'd go as far as to say that between big projects, I could get used to listen to you guys talk about smaller topics such as these theories!
A nice, fun, light hearted video. Thank you!
I enjoy the Final Fantasy series, I can also understand how theories like these can come about. It's in my opinion that the reason for theories such as this has to do with the “Suspension of Disbelief” or, at the very least, at its core, the “Threshold” behind it. While it can be used from a narrative standpoint, it also carries a threshold that varies from person to person. However, if the story introduces sudden, illogical plot twists or inconsistencies in character behavior that seem too far-fetched or disconnected from the established narrative framework, individuals may reach their threshold of suspension of disbelief and become disengaged from the story. So while the theories “Squall Is Dead” and “Rinoa being Ultimecia” may be disliked by many, (though I'm in the uncertain category), It's still fascinating to learn how someone came to that conclusion in the first place and tie it altogether.
I never liked the "Squall is Dead" theory, but sadly the only way I can make sense of FF7Remake is if I theorize/assume that everyone we see is long dead and just a memory of the planet floating about the lifestream with the only two entities with any agency being Sephiroth and Aerith. And I'm only theorizing that because I cannot accept that Aerith and Sephiroth are time travelers because that would be physically stupid.
EDIT: As stupid as it sounds, I always thought that the unnamed GF that Selphie encountered but forgot about was Griever. It literally could have been any GF in the game (or any GF that wasn't in the game).
I remember when you guys rebranded the channel and now almost 150k subs! Greatness. I live for FF8 theories
I definitely remember a dream panicking to contact a loved one andd using a silver flip phone, and this was fairly recent, but i never have had a dream with a smart phone. That is interesting.
Near death experiences are actually really interesting. Ive read stories where people see their life flash before their eyes, feeling no emotions, seeing shapes, and having an out of body experience where they see and hear things they shouldnt know but recieved confirmation over.
I recall twice. I saw something unusual in my dream, like something happening in the night sky, and consciously took my phone to take pictures, and I did. I find right after though, my dream kinda breaks and I wake up.
I never dream about using my cell phone. But, I also never dream about myself playing video games.
The description is hilarious. Down the rabbit hole we go.
I really dig these type of videos from you guys. It would be cool to see more theory stuff put under the scope and be analyzed by you both.
24:54 The theory about Squall is dead is really, really old. I can't remember whether I was was less than 20 years old when it came out (16? 18?) and it spread within the FF forums and Yahoo Groups of the day, which means at least 21 years ago OR during my early 20s (meaning before 2010).
I very rarely remember my dreams for long after waking and I internally cringe whenever anyone starts a conversation with "I had a really weird dream last night", but you asked and I've not been up for long enough to forget - Last night I _did_ have a dream involving my phone yet the phone itself wasn't in it =
For some reason I'd started jogging in one general direction and hours later had no idea where I was so I wanted to look at my phone to use the GPS/map function only to realise that I hadn't brought it with me and just had to guess the general direction back. (other general weirdness happened in trying to figure out where I was and how to travel back home but never included me thinking to ask anyone else to see their Smartphone's maps or any kind of map at all). The dream changed at some point to where I was in the past on a film set (somehow found myself there while still lost) trying to tell them that their film would be a big hit because I was from the future. Again my smartphone came into play as I wanted to use it to show I was from the future but of course I'd already established that I didn't have it so I couldn't and I didn't have anything else on me that was modern technology (though I did have a set of apple earphones my dream self dismissed them as they weren't connected to anything).
So there you go, I had a weird dream last night involving but not featuring a smartphone, I acknowledged and remembered in a dream what a smartphone could do yet I did not actually have one (which opens up a whole kettle of fish on how you can remember something in a dream without that something being _in_ the dream).
I don’t know you guys at all but I stumbled here by chance. If this were some coffee shop and you guys were having this conversation in my presence, I would absolutely be staring intently and creeping my chair closer and closer.
I wasn't even really thinking about the phone in a dream thing last night, but then when i woke up I remembered the thing brought up here. I had a dream where I went to a play or theater or smth like that, and I did pull out my phone to bring up a receipt for my ticket when someone asked if I had one (I'm not actually sure if that's how it works at like broadway plays or anything but I usually do that at movie theaters 😂)
I'm glad you covered this eventually. And no, I don't dream of cell phones, but as an old person I'm not as attached to my phone as others are. Once I retire from my job, I'm seriously considering going back to a flip phone. I can do everything I need from a computer.
There are dinosaurs in the Training Room at Balamb but the writer starts questioning reality when Moombas show up? LOL Love this content, I always leave here learning something new.
In a video game where demons throw comets at your party and a bottle of glowing green liquid heals you, the thought that someone could survive an icicle to the chest is entirely believable.
Irvine remembering the orphanage is explained in the story that Guardian Forces take place in the mind and further explained in one of the game's core mechanic of the GF compatibility rating and no it's a dating app in the game...
The more you summon a Guardian Force, the more compatible you become used to it. The more you summon it, the easier and faster it gets to have the Guardian Force summoned. It's kinda like learning to walk for the first time. A baby stumbles and falls until it's capable of walking on 2 legs. Eventually you're so used to it that it stays in the back of your mind and don't even think about it, like driving. It becomes second nature. Same thing for GFs except they take place in someone's brain into to Junction themselves to them.
We've seen Ultimecia literally merge with Griever so the idea that the Guardian Force merges in a part of your brain, replacing your memories, is not far-fetched.
And such, the more often you use GFs, the less you remember. Irvine, not having used GFs before, never had the GFs taking more and more place in his mind. Moreover, he never used GFs prior to seeing them and merely seeing themselves pulled up the memories of childhood from long time past, making these memories more vivid despite using the GF afterwards. Those memories of the orphanage and their childhood came back to the forefront on his mind by seeing them.
Funny enough, the most recent dream I had the other day, revolved around me using my phone. I agree that usually you will forget your dreams, but dreams such as this will leave enough impact that it will stick with me forever. Especially with the scenario in it.
I love this FF Where the The villain go back in time, FFVII R...ops FFVIII
This is exactly why I think we'll never get an FFVIII remake because FFVIIR has taken all the interesting ideas from 8.
FFVIIR has no time travel. Sephiroth knows things aswell as Aerith because of the livestream and the whispers who know everything, not cause they go back in time.
@@kevindepuy5390 I sort of disagree. I think changing the characters so that they know the conclusion of the original game and having them take steps to alter it is a form of mental time travel. Remake isn't a remake, it's a sequel where the events of the first game already happened once and Aerith and Sephiroth are taking steps to remake things differently.
@@dasutin No, the events haven't happened yet, rather they are predestined to happen. The creators literally said the remake has no continuity with the original game. Its not a sequel. A Sequel implies the events happen and the characters someway want to change it. In the Remake its that the whispers/planet has a desired outcome, and the entities work to make sure the desired outcomes happens. Not that it happened before and it needs to happen again. The events of the original game just happen to be the outcome the planet intended.
Sorry if that was confusing.
They have said that the plan is to make advent children canonical in the remake timeline but we do know he was frozen for most of the original but still killed shinra president ala force ghost
Yoshinori Kitase retracts his statement on Rinoa/Ultimecia:
ua-cam.com/video/k8asSQorSng/v-deo.html
Superb timing, will definitely listen to this on my commute to work!
A hour and a half video diving into the squalls dead theory?! Sign me up.
Can't wait for FINAL FANTASY VIII: Redead (part 3) in like 15 years.
I once had a dream where a phone appeared, it was my dead stepfather calling me to warn me to be careful about a decision i had to take
I just assumed that Edea broke through the Ultimecia persona offscreen and healed Squall of his wounds. Not that the entire story then on was a dream.
1:04:49 Funny you should say that because one thing that's always bugged me about FF8's story is Ellone's time powers, which has no explanation at all in the game and I feel kind of needed one because of how important it is to the entire plot. It's explicitly stated that Ellone isn't a sorceress (and if she was one the game's plot would be over before it began as Ultimecia could just possess her immediately), yet magic doesn't seem to be possible for any humans in FF8's world which is why the party relies on para-magic and drawing etc. Every other form of magic being used by humans has an explanation except for this one character that is vital to the story. Initially when I first played the game I just assumed that she was a sorceress so I got very confused when later on they explicitly state she isn't one, I probably wouldn't have even thought about it otherwise.
So she's a magic user but not a sorceress? That's weird.
thanks for the awesome topics guys!
It’s not much, but my wife has Narcolepsy and she vividly remembers every dream that she has and the only conclusion we’ve been able to come to is that there is almost 0 consistency between her dreams. Including who she is in the dream, the absurdity levels, self view etc. so yeah just some anecdotal points but she definitely has used her cell phone in them
Before watching the episode, just want to say right away - I loathe that these two theories are treated as if they are the same or even similar. The Squall is Dead theory I've never seen anyone make the argument that it makes the story communicate a greater message for it. It's at best only a lore detail, like "wouldn't this be cool", but with no actual meaning to it. While the R=U theory, whether you believe it or not, *does* genuinely have a message behind it. It's not just a lore detail, it changes the way you view the very story told in FF8, it changes how things fit together. I maintain that even if you don't believe they are literally the same person, any analysis of FF8 owes it to itself to view the story through that lens, if only insofar as viewing Rinoa and Ultimecia as narrative parallels; plus however which way you spin it, Ultimecia's powers do come from Rinoa, since Rinoa is the only sorceress left behind at the end of the story proper, so Ultimecia is always at the very least part of Rinoa's legacy.
Anyways, maybe this video will open my eyes to the Squall is Dead theory, maybe it has some kind of statement and message behind it after all. We'll see.
Honestly I feel the who Rinoa becomes Ultimecia theory would do alot to actually make Ultimecia a real and frankly far better character with actal reasons for doing what she's doing, instead of just this random sorceress from the future who's evil. It also could kind of help Rinoa showing thats shes willing to do anything for Squall in the same way Squall was willing to do anything for her, while also kind of playing into trait of Rinoa not thinking through her plans as her plan would literally destroy all of existance including more than likely herself in the process.
Addendum after finishing it - nope, it didn't open my eyes to anything new about the theory, in fact they have the same issue with the theory I have among things which is that it doesn't mean anything. For some reason people feel the need to fictionalize fiction which is really pointless. Like FF8 is already a work of the imagination of people from Japan, is it really necessary for the story within the story to also be the work of the imagination of a character in it? Why can't it just be told the way it is for the same reason you imagine Squall to imagine it, except one level further up, with the reasoning applying to the writers of the game? Whatever I suppose.
Did wish they would have gone a little further into R=U because it deserves a deep dive a hell of a lot more. How you end up reaching Ultimecia's Castle exactly by meeting up at the place where Squall and Rinoa promised to meet up at (disclaimer: I know Ultimecia's Castle is not actually right there, it just has a chain connected to there, but it's still what leads you to it). How it ties together everything left unsaid about Ultimecia but has it all entirely possible to infer, all about how her life proceeded, just from this one core point. And again, I think there's a lot to gleam from the theory even if you don't subscribe to them literally being the same person - it contextualizes Ultimecia's place in the story, and makes it feels like the ending is truly Squall's duty, to end Rinoa's legacy and the suffering she passed down (which Ultimecia embodies even if they are not the same person). He rejects leaving Rinoa to be taken away, but doesn't do so thoughtlessly, instead it leads him to the duty of defeating what is left behind because of his selfish wish.
@@KarifeanFully agree, and thank you for painting the R=U theory in that light, because I've always dismissed it assuming that its advocates were taking the story too literally. But the game does take pains, like you said, to view what being a sorceress entails for these women. I personally don't like the idea that they're the same person due to some sort of time shenanigans, but they are both bonded through this horrible power that transcends time and links their fates together, which is a core theme of the game for sure.
Star Wars has confirmed multiple time that critical chest and abdominal injuries are not lethal.
Basically science.
This was so good and interesting. Will you PLEASE do the indoctrination theory of Mass Effect. It's one of the most interesting fan theories that seems to hold decent weight that almost makes more sense in some areas than the actual ending at face value.
While this is a video you didn't want to make, ahahah. I appreciate it. My friend loves the squall is dead theory, and seeing you two tackle it. Such a joy
I would also point out that most cgi happens disc one so a lot of those blurred images likely was a resource issue.
The fact that a lot of this theory points kinda make sense in the events taking place, makes it fascinating (even more when combined with the Rinoa / Ultimecia connection). Even if Kitase debunks it... remember that even he didnt know about Zack / Cloud relation up until FF7 was about to come out... proving that in these huge projects even the lead sometimes loses sight on what is being told and how...
My thought on the icicles and Squall not having a scar was that either Seifer, or Selphie, healed him and it prevented the scar. Selphie would make sense since she has super powerful almost prodigal level healing magic (her limit break). Seifer would also make sense since he didnt want Squall to die and wanted to interrogate him. It could also have been the Moombas seeing as they mistook him for Laguna. Their powers are never talked about and they are intentionally mysterious.
I feel like the sorcerer and sorceress plotline and hyne was something they tried to do midway through the game but ultimately change the story direction midway through. And stuck rinoa in as a way to keep it there. There is hardly any mention of Hyne and things between Rinoa and Edea and Ultimecia seems thrown together when you really read it out loud like they did here. Imagine spaghetti laid out on a plate and there's a few strands of noodles haphazardly running through the middle of the plate when the entire rest of spaghetti is along the outer edges. That middle section is the sorcerer plotline.
Regarding Vanilla Sky (2001), although it might have been released after FF8 (1999), it is also a remake of the Spanish film Abre los ojos, which released prior (1997) to the release of the game.
Furthermore, Vanilla Sky states it outright that most of what we are shown was a dream. FF8 doesn't even allude to such a possibility. While this kind of theory-crafting might make sense when dealing with real events, for which sometimes we just can't find a definitive explanation, Vanilla Sky and FF8 are works of fiction. The fiction was deliberately created with an intent and this intent needs to be communicated to the audience through the fiction.
If the Dead Squall's Near Death Dream theory had any actual merit, there should be hints in the storytelling that refer to this idea specifically. A good example of this is Inception, which constantly deals with the idea of determining whether an event is a dream or reality, with layer upon layer of dreams giving you reason to doubt that anything is ever real. And this builds up to the final scene, where we see the symbol of the ongoing dream (the spinning top) show up. The writer's intent to make the ending ambiguous is made clear by virtue of the cut to black while the top is still spinning. Does it end on a dream or reality? We don't know and that's the point. FF8 poses no such ambiguity.
My take on the Dead Squall theory is that it is an attempt to rationalize elements of FF8's storytelling that the theory crafter didn't like or that we just poorly told. It seems more reasonable to just assume that things that make little to no sense to a member of the audience are simply the result of poor storytelling rather than a convoluted theory that assumes a ton of other givens that we are never asked to consider.
I missed your voices. Wow, that’s creepy. 😂However, I love both the content and your voices!
"Protagonist died/it was all a dream" its the laziest and lamest kind of theory that fans can come up with it.
I just hate that bs all around. Great episode, guys! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
It's so nice to see you guys return to Final Fantasy VIII after so many years. I have been watching your channel since the Final Fantasy retrospectives and your Final Fantasy VIII analysis series is one of my favorites. Well, that and Xenogears (will that series ever be outdone? lol). I'm glad you guys decided to move your channel in that direction instead of just chasing the trends.
22:50 No, this part takes place before the end of disc 1, this was just his first piece of evidence, suggesting that its foreshadowing, Squall wasnt yet "dead" during this scene.
Something I've thought for a long time: if the orphanage plot reveal wasn't made explicit in the story, it would absolutely be a fan theory that would gain a lot of traction. The theory would point to the little clues about memory loss and character connections throughout. My point is this:
1. The plot reveal is disliked more because people didn't see the hints, and
2. People like fan theories that would otherwise be dumb because you feel like you're "discovering" something.
“I told you ‘bout Rinoa and me, man/You know that we’re as close as can be, man/Well here’s another clue for you all:/The walrus was Squall!”
Thanks for finally covering this! I kinda love the unhinged FF8 theories. The game is open ended enough to allow it and it kept the conversation going for years. It's like wacky flat earth theories but more harmless because it's a video game.
The Rinoa=Ultimicia is also an unnecessary explanation, even if it sounds kinda cool thematically. The Unjust persecution theory follows Occams razor and makes more sense IMO. The theory is basically: Sorceresses are heavily discriminated against (even more than they are now) in Ultimicia’s time since everyone knows that Ultimicia is going to come to power soon. So Eventually one of them has had enough and takes up the mantle of Ultimicia to get revenge. That’s why she’s so obsessed with stopping Seed and if you listen to her speech when she was possessing Edea you can hear her bitterness about the persecution of sorceresses.
All the other minor things can also be explained away with simpler methods. Ultimicia probably summons Griever because she’s just grabbing the most powerful GF from history. Squall is also a fan of Griever for the same reasons. Remember it’s not just his ring but his gunblade. the case, and his necklace, all have the griever symbol. It might just be a popular symbol that represents power same way that someone might adopt a chinese Shenlong dragon as their thing. Or she saw that Squall was wearing all that Greiver merch and decided to use it to intimidate him.
Love this type of discussion
If you haven't seen Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, you *need* to
interesting video haha cheers guys!
Ive never had a dream involving a cellphone either, but the first relative I asked they said yes, a few times at least, and that they had to check their phone to make sure they actually messaged someone about something or not. Though they say their dream was "tunnel visioned" just like it is when you use your phone irl.
They brought up a good point though, when you're on your phone, you aren't actively thinking of the act of being on the phone, you're thinking of whatever you're reading, searching, playing, etc. So when they dreamed of it it was tunnel visioned to only the act of chatting in discord with someone.
Just like when I've had dreams of playing video games. My vision is only of the screen, I know Im playing a game in the dream, and I think of the same things as I do while playing games like keeping an eye on the UI, but the "outside world" doesnt exist in the dream, its just the game.
Guys, love the show! What's the song at the ending of every episode?
Funny that you bring up the cell phone in dreams. I just had one a couple nights ago. The dream went like this...
I was laying in bed. I grabbed my phone and noticed that the icon for Signal had changed. It went from what was supposed to be a white speech bubble surrounded by a blue filled square to a white square with some kind of character in it. I said out loud "What happened with Signal?" I pressed the icon and what opened looked like some kind of cheap shovelware game, riddled with popup ads and login screens. I pressed around the menus for a while, one button opened some game that I quickly backed out of, but eventually I pressed a button for my conversations and was able to find one with my sister that had two lines between us. It looked like the conversation started over I had the thought that the conversations were gone because I remembered we were talking about something, but for some reason I said out loud "Huh, all my conversations are still there." Then I turned the phone off, thinking "I'll look into this tomorrow, I'm too tired," I put the phone on my night stand, and rolled over. I then thought out loud "Maybe something happened with their code repo or maybe someone switched the packages out in the Play store." And then I woke up.
I have had my first dream with a phone after watching this video I was purchasing phones from a vending machine on my aunties back porch and they came with cases that were too big
Yo. have been listening to your state of the arc about this game while playing it! and now this! awesome
I would love to see these two do a breakdown of the Richard Linklater film Waking Life.
Christ!, i remember me and my friend Az, would sit and go ballistic over this theory years and years ago. Made us both very angry hahaha. Gleefully watched this one. and sent him the link.
28:40 on the topic of stuff you don't see in dreams. I learned in Batman TAS and have it be true in my dreams that you can't actually read stuff while you're asleep. Sure, you can look at something and you "know" what it says but if you actually try to read letters in a dream you can't. When I've tried either reading or doing anything with numbers, like reading a phone number, Ialways wake up. I think it's because the part of your brain that handles that is sleeping and by forcing it you wake up. It's a neat trick to escape nightmares.
Oh I'm so in, thanks for this!
The Seifer / president in Delling City happened before end of disk 1.
Since hearing the theory, I've always played FF8 under that context, I just personally enjoy the thought of playing 75 percent of the game as a death Dream.
Even Kitase likes the theory.
But all the criticism offered here is really valid.
And I do think that the way the theory is expressed in its original state is really bad at presenting a convincing argument.
I saved this video to watch/listen to while I do my job and i think its funny that you brought up if people dream of cell phones or not. As of writing this comment i actually had a dream where indeed dreamt of my cellphone. I'll go a little into details.
I work from home and during my break times i take naps in my bed. I have a window right above where i lay my head and i always put my phone there while i sleep. I use my phone as my alarm. My breaks are only 15 to 20 minutes so my naps are usually somwhere between 10 to 15 minutes long depending on how long it takes to fall asleep. Yesterday while taking my usual nap i had a dream where i woke up in my exact same room and even laying in bed in the exact same position. Everything about this dream was exactly like real life so i didn't think it was a dream until i reached for my phone above me sitting on my window which i grabbed but suddenly i had two phones one in each hand. I thought this was really weird and i suddenly realized i was dreaming. On one hand i had my phone i use everyday but in the other hand i had a phone that I haven't had for like 7 or years which is what made me realize that i was dreaming. This actually happens a lot where i can often figure out that I'm dreaming regardless of how normal or strange the dream may be. Unfortunately i can't lucid dream so even though i know i am dreaming i can't and have never been able to control anything in the dream. Also anytime i figure out that I'm in a dream I have to focus really on remembering and knowing that i am in a dream or else i instantly forget and the dream goes on. Its almost like the movie Memento where the main character has to constantly focus or else his memory resets and he no longer know whats going on. Anyway, i didn't try turning the phones on or using them as it didn't occur to me to try but yes i did dream of my cell phone (or 2 of my cell phones in this case) and if it hadn't been for dreaming of two cellphones then i would have tried to turn one on and opened it to check the time.
Not that it matters but the current phone i have is a Note 10+ and the second phone that appeared out of no where was a motorola smart phone from like 7 years ago.
I hope SE reimagines FF8 and also makes a game with a bunch of FF8 side stories taking different character perspectives such as Laguna or people in Esthar such as the french scientist and other people in other cities that you would play as. They could use AI tools to help with making the game and UE6 perhaps for PS6 targeted hardware. It could be modified to be a co-op game with friends who could join the party and the enemies would scale based on other people who would join instead of the level of the character in original FF8.
I don’t care if they say it’s not true, rinoa being ultimecia is canon for me and would be the best twist ever.
The squall past tense scene is probably my favourite scene from the game. I hate when someone dies and you immediately jump to past tense. It’s like there’s no in between. You’re present or your past that’s it
1:10.27 That's interesting because thats what I did on my first play-through too
On the note of Squall dying from the ice attack and then him being fine afterwards, i think square has shown that there is a difference between combat and story as other characters have died in cut scenes in previous final fantasy games when similar things happen in battle and they are just fine. Now that I think about this scenario with FFVII on the brain more than FFVIII, I wonder if this was something in response to all of the people that wanted aerith to come back in FFVII. It could have been saying to them that having someone come back without an explanation causes more problems in the narrative.
Even typing this out I don't buy it, but it's kind of the stream of consciousness that I had while listening. My take on the Squall is dead theory has always been, I don't think it was intended, but it fits enough of the evidence that I enjoy thinking of about it, even if it's not true
I agree with you guys I think a lot within the game makes sense if you pay close attention and explore every nook and cranny.
Also: I’ve seen quite a few cases of dudes clinging to this theory because they can’t accept the fact that they like fantasy or romance or Squall’s character arc triggers them because they’re DROWNING in patriarchy.
So I think Squall is dead the whole time is not the way to go for a remake. It would be more interesting to flesh out or ad to the original story based on what’s already there.
For example:
-Ad all the Laguna content that was cut from the original due to time constraints.
-They can build up towards the twists, such as the orphanage scene, with subtle hints that make the eventual reveal more emotionally impactful.
-They can expand the love stories. Show me Julia marrying Caraway while wondering where Laguna is. Show me Squall and Rinoa awkwardly opening up to each other even more than in the original. Make a side quest line about Zell and the library girl or Quistis and her fan club suitors.
-And lastly I want them to problematize and question the witch hunt. Not all sorceresses are evil so most good sorceresses must hide their powers to avoid being killed, imprisoned or exploited. At some point someone’s gotta address how fucked up that is. I always got a sense from Ultimecia’s speeches that she got so sick of being persecuted that she decided to become the evil sorceress from the messes’ fantasies, and under Hyne’s influence became more and more misanthropic. as time went by wishing to end up alone. The absolute opposite to Squall. Delving into all of this would be so interesting and would make her into a more compelling villain, and would make it almost necessary for The Great Hayne to be the final boss because what an asshole misanthropic, misogynistic God. I want to make a party of all my sorceress’ and their boyfriends and kill him because #feminism.