It would be nice if you had pointed out that the version of the Butlerian Jihad you mentioned does not come from Frank Herbert's Dune novels but from his son's prequel stories. And it's a vastly different approach to the reasons for the machine crusades. His story is one of resistance against AI overlords, while Frank's version is focused on the more philosophical idea of "losing your humanity" by letting machines do everything for us and a religious holy war that was fought in opposition to that trend - rooting the main story in the long-ranging aftermath of an ancient religious and most importantly, ideological, conflict and its repercussions instead of just being an ancient war for survival as a species against machine masters.
And there was still a dimension of oppression in Frank Herbert's version - but it wasn't the computers oppressing people, it was the wealthy people in power who owned them, controlling society, who oppressed the poor. And while the Jihad removed the machines from that particular equation, they were just replaced with bioengineered specialized human "tools" like the Mentats and a caste of metahumans like the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild who share control with artisocrats and a feudal system. That is to say, Frank Herbert wrote about a political and ideological war for control and humanity. And it's merely a foot note because its importance to the plot of the novels is just as a vague backdrop. His son just wrote a space opera war cobbled together from a bunch of sources that were ultimately often inspired by his father's work. To sell more books.
I mean, spice in the Dune Universe is : anti aging, makes you see in the future and improves your intelligence and memory. But it's addictive as f k. These kinds of drugs are the worst to say no to.
The lore history seems to be cycles of "This is why we can't have nice things". Folks develop strong AI, Butlerian Jihad occurs. Folks work around AI prohibition using the worm-spice, and all this shit happens. The next saga will naturally involve somebody inventing a way to shed the dependence on the spice-mix and then somebody will abuse it ruin everything again.
Found your channel a few months ago with your video on mortality in Lord of the Rings - love your stuff, man. Your thoughts on Tolkien and his work is incredibly insightful, but I'm also excited now to see you talk about other series like Dune or the Witcher!
It’s an incredible honor for me to have found people who dedicate a part of their very precious time to watch my content and listen to what I have to say, I really can’t describe it. Thank you so much for the support, I really appreciate it!!
Paul is driven by revenge. Even when the spice gives him prescience, he follows the path he knows will lead to mass genocide in his name. He's not a hero. HIs son, who is not nearly as sympathetic a character at his start, becomes more sympathetic as he becomes the "tyrant" in his human/worm form. These opposite development tracks of the 2 main characters throughout the series have always fascinated me.
This channel is really underrated, You deserve more subs bro. Quick question btw, is it true that frank was on shrooms while the making of the dune books, and that dune's spice was inspired by real life drugs?
Thank you so much! I’ve read about the shroom theory before, but I’m not sure of its validity, so I’ll have to do some research on it! Thanks again for the kind words!!
I love that you're pointing directly to the extreme danger of prescience. Especially combined with human nature. There's so much subtext for us to explore within Dune. Not until Paul gains the monopoly of Spice, do we see an effort to smuggle a sandworm out of Arrakis. Prior to that, intentional scarcity was intentional. If spice was super common, those in power lose most of their leverage. Some people in our world fear AGI, like they did in the books. That a self aware machine consciousness will wake up one day and destroy us all. But to me... the real danger is how the humans in control of AGI would use it to gain more power over the masses. Rather than something to improve human nature. And remove the barriers to an enlightened humanity. Sort of the way the Freman do with their own spice. Without need of consumption or destruction. As opposed to the way it's used by the guild or the Harkonnens. Spice sets the stage for the ultimate bloody revolution. The films are amazing. Except for one thing. I think the tone pressures the audience too much into *knowing* it's a bad thing early on. And I with those who don't know about Dune could fall for the author's trap, as it was intended. It still does the job anyway. But I'd rather that newcomers think Paul was the ultimate leader you SHOULD trust. And who you would OF COURSE follow. Especially, like the GoT tv series version of Jon Snow, where you find Paul's reluctance to lead even MORE of a reason to trust him. Only to learn in part 3 how wrong we all were. And that everyone, including you, are capable of joining a cult. Absolute power doesn't just corrupt the person wielding it. But it also corrupts those who serve that power... absolutely. In a world where people have access to future events beyond calculation, the destruction is only amplified. 2-D chess becomes 3-D chess. And while Paul can perhaps use his advanced ability to see more of the future, his enemies would be emboldened by their own abilities to take bold action. Destruction on a galactic scale. Paul should have nuked the spice fields. Killed the worms. And left the powerful to scramble for the last bit left to keep their withdrawals from killing them. Gone broke. Died anyway. And let the survivors rebuild from there. No more god people. No more Bene Gesserit. No Holy War. Just war for the last stach of spice. Allowing the people to rebel evwrywhere. And pick up the pieces in a galexy sent back to the basics. Live a sustainable lifestyle that doesn't depend on spacetravel. But Paul's weakness is everyone's weakness. The ego. Which gets us all in the end. As he gains the confidence of everyone around him as their messiah and savior... he believes he must be thier champion. And act on their behalf. Which just so happens to be his best interest as well. Funny how that works. So yes, he can be the one to triumph over the ultimate evil Harkonnens. And the treacherous Emperor. And if the holy war is inevitable (unless he removes spice from the equation), he can use his power to minimize the damage. But it's the story of the ultimate follower ego. Not just the leader. Paul by himself is nothing but a very smart person. But once he has an army of the righteous behind him, in full belief that they act for the ultimate good in the universe... that's the absolute corruption. Where they feed on one another, leader and follower. Just like the spice, and the powerful men who use it for their own power and control. We need to prove to one another that we CAN be trusted with AI and AGI before we continue unlock it. And only in a world were everyone voluntarily disarms their own nukes, could we even think we're ready or worthy.
To say the Spice is a bad thing is an equivocation; it's only true in the sense that money and other material goods are bad things. In reality these are good things, but only limited goods, and so can be abused and have evil effects.
Which is a bad thing is the extreme dependency upon the Spice, that replaced the extreme dependency upon the AIs. The Golden Path was a mean to forcibly break that dependency.
Evil only works on something that can use sapience; observation and tool-use. As with Neutrality being of a rock. Static, no attitude, no perception, yet a vessel for what CAN be a tool. Humans did abuse Spice, that is an awful fact, we need, no, DEMAND something to displace the pain of, well, being eaten by a bear? How else can you avoid what is already happening?
Re: The Butlerian Jihad. If I recall correctly (It's been decades) the Butlerian Jihad was against the computer programmers, because their coding skills gave them power over technophobes. However, as the universe which resulted from this holy war was hardly an egalitarian paradise, I just assumed that this was another example of Frank Herbert's don't-take-this-at-face-value messaging. The Butlerian Jihad was therefore just as justified as the Nazi Final Solution; i.e., not at all. It was just another religiously-motivated genocide to propel another fascist dictator to power. Not hatin', just sayin'.
Wrong about butlerian jihad. The pre-jihad society did not have FTL, FTL was a key technology in victory against omnius. Perhaps your script contains AI hallucinations, or you just did not read the books.
It would be nice if you had pointed out that the version of the Butlerian Jihad you mentioned does not come from Frank Herbert's Dune novels but from his son's prequel stories.
And it's a vastly different approach to the reasons for the machine crusades. His story is one of resistance against AI overlords, while Frank's version is focused on the more philosophical idea of "losing your humanity" by letting machines do everything for us and a religious holy war that was fought in opposition to that trend - rooting the main story in the long-ranging aftermath of an ancient religious and most importantly, ideological, conflict and its repercussions instead of just being an ancient war for survival as a species against machine masters.
Any Brian Herbert sourced material should come with a warning. Danger, 💩 to follow.
And there was still a dimension of oppression in Frank Herbert's version - but it wasn't the computers oppressing people, it was the wealthy people in power who owned them, controlling society, who oppressed the poor. And while the Jihad removed the machines from that particular equation, they were just replaced with bioengineered specialized human "tools" like the Mentats and a caste of metahumans like the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild who share control with artisocrats and a feudal system.
That is to say, Frank Herbert wrote about a political and ideological war for control and humanity. And it's merely a foot note because its importance to the plot of the novels is just as a vague backdrop.
His son just wrote a space opera war cobbled together from a bunch of sources that were ultimately often inspired by his father's work. To sell more books.
See kids this is why you dont do drugs😊.
I mean, spice in the Dune Universe is : anti aging, makes you see in the future and improves your intelligence and memory. But it's addictive as f k. These kinds of drugs are the worst to say no to.
The lore history seems to be cycles of "This is why we can't have nice things". Folks develop strong AI, Butlerian Jihad occurs. Folks work around AI prohibition using the worm-spice, and all this shit happens.
The next saga will naturally involve somebody inventing a way to shed the dependence on the spice-mix and then somebody will abuse it ruin everything again.
Found your channel a few months ago with your video on mortality in Lord of the Rings - love your stuff, man. Your thoughts on Tolkien and his work is incredibly insightful, but I'm also excited now to see you talk about other series like Dune or the Witcher!
It’s an incredible honor for me to have found people who dedicate a part of their very precious time to watch my content and listen to what I have to say, I really can’t describe it. Thank you so much for the support, I really appreciate it!!
Paul is driven by revenge. Even when the spice gives him prescience, he follows the path he knows will lead to mass genocide in his name. He's not a hero. HIs son, who is not nearly as sympathetic a character at his start, becomes more sympathetic as he becomes the "tyrant" in his human/worm form. These opposite development tracks of the 2 main characters throughout the series have always fascinated me.
This channel is really underrated, You deserve more subs bro. Quick question btw, is it true that frank was on shrooms while the making of the dune books, and that dune's spice was inspired by real life drugs?
Thank you so much! I’ve read about the shroom theory before, but I’m not sure of its validity, so I’ll have to do some research on it! Thanks again for the kind words!!
Another great video, analysis another great series
Nice choice for a video, hope it works !
I love that you're pointing directly to the extreme danger of prescience. Especially combined with human nature.
There's so much subtext for us to explore within Dune. Not until Paul gains the monopoly of Spice, do we see an effort to smuggle a sandworm out of Arrakis. Prior to that, intentional scarcity was intentional. If spice was super common, those in power lose most of their leverage.
Some people in our world fear AGI, like they did in the books. That a self aware machine consciousness will wake up one day and destroy us all. But to me... the real danger is how the humans in control of AGI would use it to gain more power over the masses. Rather than something to improve human nature. And remove the barriers to an enlightened humanity. Sort of the way the Freman do with their own spice. Without need of consumption or destruction. As opposed to the way it's used by the guild or the Harkonnens.
Spice sets the stage for the ultimate bloody revolution. The films are amazing. Except for one thing. I think the tone pressures the audience too much into *knowing* it's a bad thing early on. And I with those who don't know about Dune could fall for the author's trap, as it was intended. It still does the job anyway. But I'd rather that newcomers think Paul was the ultimate leader you SHOULD trust. And who you would OF COURSE follow. Especially, like the GoT tv series version of Jon Snow, where you find Paul's reluctance to lead even MORE of a reason to trust him. Only to learn in part 3 how wrong we all were. And that everyone, including you, are capable of joining a cult.
Absolute power doesn't just corrupt the person wielding it. But it also corrupts those who serve that power... absolutely.
In a world where people have access to future events beyond calculation, the destruction is only amplified. 2-D chess becomes 3-D chess. And while Paul can perhaps use his advanced ability to see more of the future, his enemies would be emboldened by their own abilities to take bold action. Destruction on a galactic scale.
Paul should have nuked the spice fields. Killed the worms. And left the powerful to scramble for the last bit left to keep their withdrawals from killing them. Gone broke. Died anyway. And let the survivors rebuild from there. No more god people. No more Bene Gesserit. No Holy War. Just war for the last stach of spice. Allowing the people to rebel evwrywhere. And pick up the pieces in a galexy sent back to the basics. Live a sustainable lifestyle that doesn't depend on spacetravel.
But Paul's weakness is everyone's weakness. The ego. Which gets us all in the end. As he gains the confidence of everyone around him as their messiah and savior... he believes he must be thier champion. And act on their behalf. Which just so happens to be his best interest as well. Funny how that works.
So yes, he can be the one to triumph over the ultimate evil Harkonnens. And the treacherous Emperor. And if the holy war is inevitable (unless he removes spice from the equation), he can use his power to minimize the damage. But it's the story of the ultimate follower ego. Not just the leader. Paul by himself is nothing but a very smart person. But once he has an army of the righteous behind him, in full belief that they act for the ultimate good in the universe... that's the absolute corruption. Where they feed on one another, leader and follower. Just like the spice, and the powerful men who use it for their own power and control.
We need to prove to one another that we CAN be trusted with AI and AGI before we continue unlock it. And only in a world were everyone voluntarily disarms their own nukes, could we even think we're ready or worthy.
Is it really absolute corruption? At first chance Paul goes into desert and returns as A Preacher to rail against cult of himself
Best Dune video y ever saw. Congrats!
Dune is such a fantastic book
One of my favorites!!
To say the Spice is a bad thing is an equivocation; it's only true in the sense that money and other material goods are bad things. In reality these are good things, but only limited goods, and so can be abused and have evil effects.
Which is a bad thing is the extreme dependency upon the Spice, that replaced the extreme dependency upon the AIs. The Golden Path was a mean to forcibly break that dependency.
Evil only works on something that can use sapience; observation and tool-use. As with Neutrality being of a rock. Static, no attitude, no perception, yet a vessel for what CAN be a tool. Humans did abuse Spice, that is an awful fact, we need, no, DEMAND something to displace the pain of, well, being eaten by a bear? How else can you avoid what is already happening?
The spice is the universe
Cool!
🎉
Re: The Butlerian Jihad. If I recall correctly (It's been decades) the Butlerian Jihad was against the computer programmers, because their coding skills gave them power over technophobes. However, as the universe which resulted from this holy war was hardly an egalitarian paradise, I just assumed that this was another example of Frank Herbert's don't-take-this-at-face-value messaging. The Butlerian Jihad was therefore just as justified as the Nazi Final Solution; i.e., not at all. It was just another religiously-motivated genocide to propel another fascist dictator to power. Not hatin', just sayin'.
Through AI, we can be free from spice
A slave to spice or a slave to other men with machines. We truly are screwed.
Ixians agree
@@crusader2112 Or a slave to other men without machines
@@LuDux That honestly seems to be the options. It seems there will always be someone above us to command us and someone below us.
All my homies hate Dune Spice
You get addicted to it and you die from withdrawals. Next question.
Wrong about butlerian jihad. The pre-jihad society did not have FTL, FTL was a key technology in victory against omnius. Perhaps your script contains AI hallucinations, or you just did not read the books.
In this video none of Brian Herbert’s books are taken into account, only the canon material written by Frank himself.