3:144 ومامحمد الا رسول قد خلت من قبله الرسل افئن مات او قتل انقلبتم على اعقابكم ومن ينقلب على عقبيه فلن يضر الله شيئا وسيجزي الله الشاكرين Translation: And Mohammad is not except a messenger, had passed/expired from before him the messengers, so if he died, or (he was) killed, you turned/returned on your heels , and whom turns/returns, on his two heels, so he will never/not harm God, a thing, and God will reward the thankful/grateful.
My intent is to worship Allah (swt). InshAllah I will be accepted. Your intention is probably the same, the difference is in the method. You have no precedent for you method. I do. I win. You lose. Perhaps Manmade was the wrong word to use. In terms of Fiqh sujud cannot be done on things which can be eaten or worn. Or from an animal (perhaps not killed halal). Please stop trying to insinuate I do not believe Allah (swt) is the source of all things
How modest of you. I know the argument you are making. It is a cop out. Rasoul (saaw) never prayed on the type of carpets we pray on today. Technically it is a Bidah. He pray on dust and earth and palm leaves. The turbah is made of earth. Thats as simple as it gets.
Here is a good argument... Can u agree that the path of Allah(SWT) does not misguide? If so then lets assume for a moment that turbah is a way going closer to the path? Now look up the video "MIRACLE ON TURBA"... This is why Islam does not crosses, turbas, or anything the proximity thereof. So we don't go looking for miricles other than the Quran!
And all Muslim on the earth did not accept that easily. what happened was for Alhussain killed me inside and i'm sure it did to you the same because you are a Muslim. and you are concern about the Islam and all Muslims.. my good brother, believe me this difference will cause alot of problems and hates in muslims communites. but me and you are the upcoming future of Muslims. we need to create a unity between each other.
Following the sunnah of the Prophet(PBUH) is Great!!! Mashallah! But how many such trinkets did the prophet carry. It's very important to not fall into such pitfalls as the christains did. Take the cross for example. When did Isa(PBUH) say that his followers take the crusifix and put it around their neck or pray with or to it. NEVER!!! When observing the prophets what they don't do is just as important as what they do. The Prophet never carried such an object and so we should not also.
we need to tell the entier world that we are one strong hand, we believe in Allah, the uniqe not like anything else, and then we believe on prophet mohammed his messnager and his slave as well. no matter what happened after the death of Prophet mohammed (pbuh. because Allah said in the holy Quran>>>
Mashallah thank you brother.. but i really want you to read my comment carefully. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) said that the earth is clean unless if it has been proved that it is not clean. my good Brother, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not pray in Turbah that has the name of Allah or Hussain written on it. So, why do we make hard on us. I'm Sunni and i love Alhussain and all members of al bait. i love them because Prophet Mohammed mentioned to love them.. and believe me what happened was a tragedy...
I'm not modest, I'm well versed in philosophy so I'm quite confident, given your prior responses, that you cannot debate me in terms of metaphysics. Lets talk bid'ah. It appears you lack fundamental knowledge on this subject. Bid'ah is innovation through change in practices that modifies the present intent of the believer or the intrinsic value of the core belief upon which that intent is bases. I'll prove your turbah does this and and then you try to prove the carpet does.
With? How do I pray with the earth does the turbah stand next to me? What the hell are you talking about? And do you have a narration or proof to back up what you say? Remember shia do NOT worship clay.
answer me a simple question.....if for the sake of argument i admit what u say.....so kindly replace mud of karbala to the mud of mecca...... mud of karbala has already been dirty with the bloodshed as the blood of people killing Imam Hussain (pbuh) also fell on the same ground.....whereas we all know that place where kaaba is located (mecca) is free from any war or bloodshed since time immortal ..... if u can't do this....then dont try to defend your bidaah with so called sunni hadees.....
Go pray on money. That too is manmade in we are to use your logic. Go on, go do sujud on a ten pound note. By natural he meant directly from the earth but which cant be eaten or worn. The fiqh rules are not as simple as you think
It is not neccessary, we can pray on wood, stone etc. You are confusing fiqh with Aqidah but then you dont really know what you are saying. Anyway this has descended into an ego trip so peace.
First lets set one thing straight since you don't understand the proper way to debate an argument. BE VERY SURE YOU SPEAK WHAT YOU MEAN. With that said lets proceed to my argument. "go pray on money". According to my argument this is not manmade. In case you didn't understand I'll reiterate. NOTHING IS MANMADE. There is no such thing. If if was a clean surface it doesn't matter what you pray on. Pray on silk or on soil it makes no difference.
The Turbah - First, understand this is a practice that the prophet didnt practice (could have but chose not to). You are simple proof that such a practice modifies the intent of the believer from one who is praying before the almighty to one whom is more concerned with the symbolic aspect of his actions. Second you have taken the core belief that the Almighty is the creator of all things and have introduced this idea of "manmade". You attack the fundamentals of Islam with such an assumption.
There's nothing to debate. You are debating on something we do not disagree on. Obviously the source of everything is Allah (swt). Dont be mischeivious. Our turbah seeks to continue the practice of Rasoul (saaw) praying on earth. Your carpet has NO precedent whatsoever. He NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER prayed on carpet. I win.
You keep using the word belief. Come back when you understand the difference between belief and jurisprudence. Aqidah is belief. Fiqh is jurispudence. Not even the basest of nasibis (such as bilal phillips in his translation of devils deception) calls the issue of turbah a aqidah based issue, it is a fiqhi issue. Hence even he says that on this issue, no one has created a belief. When you understand this difference then we can talk. Until then your just making the same stupid points.
LOL!!! Your understanding of the word precedent and its application in this instance is quite wrong. If precedence is the manner by which this argument is won in your eyes then you have lost!!! It is I who follow the precedent here because I pray like the prophet did. WITHOUT ANY SYMBOLS OR IDOLS!!! You have this piece of dirt you carry with you to which you attribute a holy connection and therefore have created a belief that runs parallel to and not within Islam. You Lose!
Your argument as to the nature of soil and carpet is horrible... ASTAGHFURRALLAH... EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MADE BY ALLAH... "manmade" is an illusion. Please remove this silly argument.
Yeah ON earth, but NOT WITH earth. The turbah in hell will become alive and will say to the shi'ah that made it: You take me as a partner with Allah???
You are a weak debater. You make assumptions which you are unaware of, your word usage is questionable at best, and your understanding of fundamental principals is comprimised by your practice. Stop replying to me until you have a solid argument. (which in this instance there is none because the idea of turbah is fundamentally rejected by Islam) Good luck.
Thankyou bro..
Great answers..
Sent to all my sunni brothers..
3:144 ومامحمد الا رسول قد خلت من قبله الرسل افئن مات او قتل انقلبتم على اعقابكم ومن ينقلب على عقبيه فلن يضر الله شيئا وسيجزي الله الشاكرين
Translation:
And Mohammad is not except a messenger, had passed/expired from before him the messengers, so if he died, or (he was) killed, you turned/returned on your heels , and whom turns/returns, on his two heels, so he will never/not harm God, a thing, and God will reward the thankful/grateful.
SubhanAllah.
Peace.
My intent is to worship Allah (swt). InshAllah I will be accepted. Your intention is probably the same, the difference is in the method. You have no precedent for you method. I do. I win. You lose.
Perhaps Manmade was the wrong word to use. In terms of Fiqh sujud cannot be done on things which can be eaten or worn. Or from an animal (perhaps not killed halal). Please stop trying to insinuate I do not believe Allah (swt) is the source of all things
How modest of you.
I know the argument you are making. It is a cop out. Rasoul (saaw) never prayed on the type of carpets we pray on today. Technically it is a Bidah.
He pray on dust and earth and palm leaves. The turbah is made of earth. Thats as simple as it gets.
Here is a good argument... Can u agree that the path of Allah(SWT) does not misguide? If so then lets assume for a moment that turbah is a way going closer to the path? Now look up the video "MIRACLE ON TURBA"... This is why Islam does not crosses, turbas, or anything the proximity thereof. So we don't go looking for miricles other than the Quran!
And all Muslim on the earth did not accept that easily. what happened was for Alhussain killed me inside and i'm sure it did to you the same because you are a Muslim. and you are concern about the Islam and all Muslims.. my good brother, believe me this difference will cause alot of problems and hates in muslims communites. but me and you are the upcoming future of Muslims. we need to create a unity between each other.
Following the sunnah of the Prophet(PBUH) is Great!!! Mashallah!
But how many such trinkets did the prophet carry. It's very important to not fall into such pitfalls as the christains did. Take the cross for example. When did Isa(PBUH) say that his followers take the crusifix and put it around their neck or pray with or to it.
NEVER!!!
When observing the prophets what they don't do is just as important as what they do. The Prophet never carried such an object and so we should not also.
we need to tell the entier world that we are one strong hand, we believe in Allah, the uniqe not like anything else, and then we believe on prophet mohammed his messnager and his slave as well. no matter what happened after the death of Prophet mohammed (pbuh. because Allah said in the holy Quran>>>
Mashallah thank you brother.. but i really want you to read my comment carefully. Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) said that the earth is clean unless if it has been proved that it is not clean. my good Brother, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not pray in Turbah that has the name of Allah or Hussain written on it. So, why do we make hard on us. I'm Sunni and i love Alhussain and all members of al bait. i love them because Prophet Mohammed mentioned to love them.. and believe me what happened was a tragedy...
I'm not modest, I'm well versed in philosophy so I'm quite confident, given your prior responses, that you cannot debate me in terms of metaphysics.
Lets talk bid'ah. It appears you lack fundamental knowledge on this subject. Bid'ah is innovation through change in practices that modifies the present intent of the believer or the intrinsic value of the core belief upon which that intent is bases.
I'll prove your turbah does this and and then you try to prove the carpet does.
We try.
With? How do I pray with the earth does the turbah stand next to me? What the hell are you talking about?
And do you have a narration or proof to back up what you say? Remember shia do NOT worship clay.
answer me a simple question.....if for the sake of argument i admit what u say.....so kindly replace mud of karbala to the mud of mecca......
mud of karbala has already been dirty with the bloodshed as the blood of people killing Imam Hussain (pbuh) also fell on the same ground.....whereas we all know that place where kaaba is located (mecca) is free from any war or bloodshed since time immortal .....
if u can't do this....then dont try to defend your bidaah with so called sunni hadees.....
Go pray on money. That too is manmade in we are to use your logic. Go on, go do sujud on a ten pound note. By natural he meant directly from the earth but which cant be eaten or worn. The fiqh rules are not as simple as you think
It is not neccessary, we can pray on wood, stone etc. You are confusing fiqh with Aqidah but then you dont really know what you are saying.
Anyway this has descended into an ego trip so peace.
If you'd like to debate this in terms of metaphysics please proceed but I warn you. You'll lose. Good luck.
First lets set one thing straight since you don't understand the proper way to debate an argument.
BE VERY SURE YOU SPEAK WHAT YOU MEAN.
With that said lets proceed to my argument. "go pray on money". According to my argument this is not manmade. In case you didn't understand I'll reiterate. NOTHING IS MANMADE. There is no such thing. If if was a clean surface it doesn't matter what you pray on. Pray on silk or on soil it makes no difference.
The Turbah - First, understand this is a practice that the prophet didnt practice (could have but chose not to). You are simple proof that such a practice modifies the intent of the believer from one who is praying before the almighty to one whom is more concerned with the symbolic aspect of his actions. Second you have taken the core belief that the Almighty is the creator of all things and have introduced this idea of "manmade". You attack the fundamentals of Islam with such an assumption.
There's nothing to debate. You are debating on something we do not disagree on. Obviously the source of everything is Allah (swt). Dont be mischeivious.
Our turbah seeks to continue the practice of Rasoul (saaw) praying on earth. Your carpet has NO precedent whatsoever. He NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER prayed on carpet.
I win.
You keep using the word belief.
Come back when you understand the difference between belief and jurisprudence. Aqidah is belief. Fiqh is jurispudence.
Not even the basest of nasibis (such as bilal phillips in his translation of devils deception) calls the issue of turbah a aqidah based issue, it is a fiqhi issue.
Hence even he says that on this issue, no one has created a belief.
When you understand this difference then we can talk. Until then your just making the same stupid points.
LOL!!!
Your understanding of the word precedent and its application in this instance is quite wrong. If precedence is the manner by which this argument is won in your eyes then you have lost!!!
It is I who follow the precedent here because I pray like the prophet did. WITHOUT ANY SYMBOLS OR IDOLS!!! You have this piece of dirt you carry with you to which you attribute a holy connection and therefore have created a belief that runs parallel to and not within Islam.
You Lose!
Your argument as to the nature of soil and carpet is horrible... ASTAGHFURRALLAH... EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS MADE BY ALLAH... "manmade" is an illusion. Please remove this silly argument.
Yeah ON earth, but NOT WITH earth. The turbah in hell will become alive and will say to the shi'ah that made it: You take me as a partner with Allah???
You are a weak debater. You make assumptions which you are unaware of, your word usage is questionable at best, and your understanding of fundamental principals is comprimised by your practice.
Stop replying to me until you have a solid argument. (which in this instance there is none because the idea of turbah is fundamentally rejected by Islam)
Good luck.