Most enlightening thing you said was that it takes a while to Build and tune a HT. Even those of us on a small budget project in a multi-purpose room can be encouraged to know that it does not happen overnight.
Awesome considerations here. I wonder if the people that say REL subs are more musical just prefer not to have the lower octaves represented. I've had the thought before.
Good points Matt- Crazy noise flootlr and flimsy outside wall skeleton at cedia cant portend this will portrey the bass performance in a well constructed dedicayed HT
CEDIAs demos this year were especially odd and I do agree with the question asker and Matt that the levels just get too loud. It seems like it would be better to put the sound rooms in some of the conference rooms rather than the main floor, but I'm sure cost is a big factor in that. Conventions are extremely expensive with the unions and space, in order for Perlisten to be in the Trinnov booth they have to pay a lot of money. All these partner booths share the cost and the end result is... sometimes better than others. I actually thought the Grimani JVC system was quite good. Yes it was compromised by nature of the space, and yes there was a lady standing right there, but it showed a system that a heck of a lot more people would install than the Perlisten room with all those plate amp subs hanging on the wall. Maybe not Grimani's best system, no, but I'd sure watch a movie on it. A lot of these demo rooms are totally lost in the weeds and on complete hyperbolic spirals, I don't know what it's really selling them.
Thanks Matt! So I guess i'm not going to waste money going to Cedia if they only cater to the (MORE BASS) crowd. I'm older now and want a modest spl -18 thru -24 db . I would want all the rooms to have more than one saved profile so i could listen to speakers/systems at a much more modest volume level. I'm having trouble now because it seems not many speaker companies promote (Or provide info ) about lower output volume perfection. Leaning towards RBH but dont want to spend 1-2K$ to go hear them (in room)
To me it seems like most people run the bass way too hot so they are probably catering to that audience. I run mine a little hot but not much, and I have graduated increases using the 4 miniDSP configurations starting around 2 to 3 dB hot with 1 to 1.5 dB increments from Config 1 to 4. Config 2 works pretty well for most content but recordings vary so it's almost impossible to find a single setting that works for everything. In my case the subwoofers cover from 35 Hz down to 10 Hz and the woofers from 90 Hz down to 35 Hz so I have independent DSP control for those two bands. For the subwoofers the increments are just gain differences but for the woofers the increments use both gain and shelves to smooth out the increments relative to the line arrays that cover 90 Hz up. Having them independent allows choosing different configurations for the subwoofers and woofers so if I want a little extra in the bottom end but not in the mid-bass, I can do that.
Because people like their toys. And infrasonic. Yes the sound engineers are monitoring on systems that are high passes at 25hz. And yes many of the movies get neutered before being sent off to us for residential mixes. I won’t argue the infrasonic piece here. The content is there, yes. But it’s only there by accident. That is what every sound engineer I’ve talked with has said. So reproduce it at your own risk. Since many love the effect (and bragging rights) it’s all have rage. My own presets go both ways. I can do flat to 10hz or cut it off at 20hz.
Simple. The vast majority prefer boosted bass. That’s why they do it that way. You can’t please everyone, so it seems like the smartest approach is to do what pleases the majority.🤷♂️
I dunno man, I can’t figure out bass at all. Most people would be really happy with what I have, and for the most part I am too. But then I see all these larger systems with ten subs and I’m like… am I missing something? Loved hearing the OP say his dual 12’s sounds more refined. After years of rabbit holing on UA-cam I’ve yet to hear someone say their modest system is more pleasing to them than a super system. It’s refreshing to hear a more pragmatic review. Regarding room curves, those are starting to make less sense to me too. Every auto EQ system tames the base and you lose all the room gain and low end boost. So you add a house curve and suddenly it doesn’t sound as good as out of the box with no EQ at all. The dialed in approach always measures nicely but why doesn’t it actually sound as good? Is it cause I’m not a “trained listener”? I like bass, that’s why I have two 16” subs. But what am I constantly chasing and unable to find?? The perfectly measured 8dB boost Harmon target curve, to me, sounds like ass in my room, so I’m trying to figure out what sounds good to me, then measure THAT so I know what to look for… just rambling.
This is just a guess, but you may have too much boost in the 70-150hz range. I've found that backing that area down makes things a lot cleaner but the boost in the 60hz area and below keeps the strong thump in music and movies.
Customers seem to be driving installers to concentrate on increasing bass. Increasing it without increasing the rest can't make the soundtrack mix accurate. A badly mixed soundtrack might be boomy. You can't fix that. Perhaps a subwoofer low frequency demonstration should have all the other speakers turned off. Does anyone demonstrate a speakers high frequency capability to send them deaf? If a room or sub is considered boomy why not stop it/them playing any sound above, say 120hz or even 80. Boosting above is risking clarity issues anyway. (May my thoughts are getting off track) :)
What this guy is talking about is a levels issue for one. It sounds like they’re tuned this way on purpose. It’s not hard to get good sound in a few days and most of the stuff you’re talking about is planning and scheduling that makes a job take months and months. At the end of the day, the people who are tuning the room are doing it to their taste and from what I’ve always heard at these shows, it involves over blown bass that sounds terrible. To me it just tells me that these people putting these megabuck systems together don’t actually understand good sound. As evidenced by some of the demo material they play (for example, the greatest showman scene that’s incredibly shouty and harsh sounding. Terrible recording) they don’t seem to have a good grasp on sound quality in the first place. These people shouldn’t be boosting bass especially to compete with one another. They’re only continuing to promote bad sound instead of educating people on what good accurate sound is. Fail.
It's difficult as often their "job" at the shows is to impress as many people with the demo's as possible, but not everyone likes the same thing so they end up doing what "most" people would be impressed by. In the case of germani sounds like they were trying to impress by demo'ing a good value. In addition to this, often most people are impressed by the system that gave the most visceral experience which tends to be the one that's most loudest.
I can tell you at MWAVE Grimani Systems wasn’t boomy at all, it was super tight. Some people complained about there not being enough bass for their taste because of this. Then you had JTR with the bas turned up high. They only had a few hours of basic calibration as well. Grimani knows what he’s doing, as for the others idk, but most weren’t boomy.
Most enlightening thing you said was that it takes a while to Build and tune a HT. Even those of us on a small budget project in a multi-purpose room can be encouraged to know that it does not happen overnight.
Awesome considerations here. I wonder if the people that say REL subs are more musical just prefer not to have the lower octaves represented. I've had the thought before.
Good points Matt- Crazy noise flootlr and flimsy outside wall skeleton at cedia cant portend this will portrey the bass performance in a well constructed dedicayed HT
CEDIAs demos this year were especially odd and I do agree with the question asker and Matt that the levels just get too loud. It seems like it would be better to put the sound rooms in some of the conference rooms rather than the main floor, but I'm sure cost is a big factor in that. Conventions are extremely expensive with the unions and space, in order for Perlisten to be in the Trinnov booth they have to pay a lot of money. All these partner booths share the cost and the end result is... sometimes better than others. I actually thought the Grimani JVC system was quite good. Yes it was compromised by nature of the space, and yes there was a lady standing right there, but it showed a system that a heck of a lot more people would install than the Perlisten room with all those plate amp subs hanging on the wall. Maybe not Grimani's best system, no, but I'd sure watch a movie on it. A lot of these demo rooms are totally lost in the weeds and on complete hyperbolic spirals, I don't know what it's really selling them.
Thanks Matt! So I guess i'm not going to waste money going to Cedia if they only cater to the (MORE BASS) crowd. I'm older now and want a modest spl -18 thru -24 db . I would want all the rooms to have more than one saved profile so i could listen to speakers/systems at a much more modest volume level. I'm having trouble now because it seems not many speaker companies promote (Or provide info ) about lower output volume perfection. Leaning towards RBH but dont want to spend 1-2K$ to go hear them (in room)
To me it seems like most people run the bass way too hot so they are probably catering to that audience. I run mine a little hot but not much, and I have graduated increases using the 4 miniDSP configurations starting around 2 to 3 dB hot with 1 to 1.5 dB increments from Config 1 to 4. Config 2 works pretty well for most content but recordings vary so it's almost impossible to find a single setting that works for everything.
In my case the subwoofers cover from 35 Hz down to 10 Hz and the woofers from 90 Hz down to 35 Hz so I have independent DSP control for those two bands. For the subwoofers the increments are just gain differences but for the woofers the increments use both gain and shelves to smooth out the increments relative to the line arrays that cover 90 Hz up. Having them independent allows choosing different configurations for the subwoofers and woofers so if I want a little extra in the bottom end but not in the mid-bass, I can do that.
We always hear "Filmmakers Intent, just once i'd like to hear "Soundmixers Intent", an accurate presentation of the mix. Is that being unreasonable?
but i thought all sound editors use a 20 to 25hz cutoff so why are these systems playing down flat to 10hz?
Because people like their toys. And infrasonic.
Yes the sound engineers are monitoring on systems that are high passes at 25hz. And yes many of the movies get neutered before being sent off to us for residential mixes.
I won’t argue the infrasonic piece here. The content is there, yes. But it’s only there by accident. That is what every sound engineer I’ve talked with has said. So reproduce it at your own risk. Since many love the effect (and bragging rights) it’s all have rage.
My own presets go both ways. I can do flat to 10hz or cut it off at 20hz.
Simple. The vast majority prefer boosted bass. That’s why they do it that way. You can’t please everyone, so it seems like the smartest approach is to do what pleases the majority.🤷♂️
I dunno man, I can’t figure out bass at all. Most people would be really happy with what I have, and for the most part I am too. But then I see all these larger systems with ten subs and I’m like… am I missing something? Loved hearing the OP say his dual 12’s sounds more refined. After years of rabbit holing on UA-cam I’ve yet to hear someone say their modest system is more pleasing to them than a super system. It’s refreshing to hear a more pragmatic review.
Regarding room curves, those are starting to make less sense to me too. Every auto EQ system tames the base and you lose all the room gain and low end boost. So you add a house curve and suddenly it doesn’t sound as good as out of the box with no EQ at all. The dialed in approach always measures nicely but why doesn’t it actually sound as good? Is it cause I’m not a “trained listener”? I like bass, that’s why I have two 16” subs. But what am I constantly chasing and unable to find?? The perfectly measured 8dB boost Harmon target curve, to me, sounds like ass in my room, so I’m trying to figure out what sounds good to me, then measure THAT so I know what to look for… just rambling.
This is just a guess, but you may have too much boost in the 70-150hz range. I've found that backing that area down makes things a lot cleaner but the boost in the 60hz area and below keeps the strong thump in music and movies.
😂 we are fussy with our low end tastes.
Customers seem to be driving installers to concentrate on increasing bass. Increasing it without increasing the rest can't make the soundtrack mix accurate. A badly mixed soundtrack might be boomy. You can't fix that. Perhaps a subwoofer low frequency demonstration should have all the other speakers turned off. Does anyone demonstrate a speakers high frequency capability to send them deaf?
If a room or sub is considered boomy why not stop it/them playing any sound above, say 120hz or even 80. Boosting above is risking clarity issues anyway.
(May my thoughts are getting off track) :)
Well said sir!!!
Just subscribed today.
Keep up the good work...
Thank you!
2 years? Yikes. Seems like way too much for me.
Do you have 500000$ left over for a home theatre ?
What this guy is talking about is a levels issue for one. It sounds like they’re tuned this way on purpose. It’s not hard to get good sound in a few days and most of the stuff you’re talking about is planning and scheduling that makes a job take months and months. At the end of the day, the people who are tuning the room are doing it to their taste and from what I’ve always heard at these shows, it involves over blown bass that sounds terrible. To me it just tells me that these people putting these megabuck systems together don’t actually understand good sound. As evidenced by some of the demo material they play (for example, the greatest showman scene that’s incredibly shouty and harsh sounding. Terrible recording) they don’t seem to have a good grasp on sound quality in the first place.
These people shouldn’t be boosting bass especially to compete with one another. They’re only continuing to promote bad sound instead of educating people on what good accurate sound is. Fail.
It's difficult as often their "job" at the shows is to impress as many people with the demo's as possible, but not everyone likes the same thing so they end up doing what "most" people would be impressed by. In the case of germani sounds like they were trying to impress by demo'ing a good value. In addition to this, often most people are impressed by the system that gave the most visceral experience which tends to be the one that's most loudest.
Yes, because you are the authority on good sound.🤦♂️
@@brucecarter6205 You don’t know anything about me. :). Don’t be so simple minded.
@@DonnieDorko477people like what they like. Get over yourself.
Doesn’t make it bad sound because you don’t like it.
I can tell you at MWAVE Grimani Systems wasn’t boomy at all, it was super tight. Some people complained about there not being enough bass for their taste because of this. Then you had JTR with the bas turned up high. They only had a few hours of basic calibration as well. Grimani knows what he’s doing, as for the others idk, but most weren’t boomy.
Tuneful… 😅
He must be old. Tuneful. Lol