Playing (and Losing) in Competitive Games For Fun
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- streamed June 20, 2024
Follow Sajam on Twitter & Twitch:
/ sajam
/ sajam
/ discord
If you're ever confused by some terminology try looking it up in the FG Glossary:
glossary.infil...
Clips Channel:
/ sajamclips
Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste:
/ magicmoste
#FGC #Sajam
The soundbite of Sajam sarcastically saying "He's trying to WIN in a game where the objective is to WIN??" in an old vid lives rent-free in my head
need to find that soundbite...
@@Alex-tq4jdI need it bro
my favorite is "its a shooting game, not a fighting game"
Skill Based Matchmaking is Good, Actually (Again) - 4:18
The objective of the game is always to win. Doesnt mean you have to take it seriously or that winning has to be the players objective.
This image was made by someone who thinks they're the person on the left, but is actually the person on the right.
You are so spot on😂😂 the logical fallacy of the image creation is astronomically laughable
many such cases. glad to see a take from someone who isn’t dickriding in this comments section for once
Is this about politics too because holy man you might still be spitting
Came here to post this sentiment but you did it much better than I could.
Almost every goddang time, yeah
"There should be a separate que for people like me with full time jobs" - famous last words from someone who is about to star in a Brian F clip.
Funny thing is, that queue already exists, it's the lower rank queues, but people's egos can't handle it
It’s called casual mode
@@zhoujo Casuals and the hub are for that.
There is a good amount of pros with day jobs. The reality is that these types complaining are just salty about things that require effort.
@@zhoujofor SF6, it’s actually better to play in ranked if you’re looking to get matched consistently to people around your skill level. BH is full of Master ranked players who don’t want to grind MR, and the level can go from “barely squeezed into Masters and would be a 1200 MR player” to 1800+ MR level play. There are also true beginners to intermediate players in there, but it would be harder to find them and keep playing them. Ranked basically guarantees you games against people similar to your skill once you’ve played enough to get to a level where you’re winning only about half of your games.
similarly to how you should just go "aw dang it" when you guess wrong, when you lose a game or a set you should just go "damn he's good"
I AM the "Aw dang it" sound bite whenever I play 😂
Bro locked in 😂 cant hate the hustle.
The "aw dangit" meme has legitimately improved my mental for the better. I am faaaaaaar less salty now making a wrong guess the moment the sound plays in my head lol
@@CowboyTalksTooMuch I should try this lol
Some of Sajam's most subtle but positive mindset was when he gets hit by absolute bullshit and he just says out loud "ok, you got me"
I tried doing it and it's super positive for mental, in my experience.
If you lose you're stupid
If you win you're a sweat
The crouch tech of ego defense.
The only acceptable skill level is my own.
When I first tried to get into fighting games seriously it was SF4. I played against a 'friend' who offered to help me learn and he spent the entire time laughing at me, making fun of me, winning and gloating and on the odd chance I hit him with someone he would complain. Made me pretty much give up on trying to play fighting games for a while and I only watched. Later on, when Strive came out, I tried again with a different friend who cultivated me. He hyped me up, taught me what I was doing wrong, showed me how to train, and encouraged me even when I lost. I had a lot of fun playing with him, even if he had an 85-90% winrate vs me. Now I got into SF6 on my own and found success (by my own standards) cause of what he taught me to do in Strive.
Beautiful, hope the friend that helped you is doing well. Love to see good people in the FGC.
This is why I love playing third strike with my roommate, he'll notice me struggling and give me tips on what I should do and we'll take a minute mid match to try it then get back to playing for real
We should have more people like the latter. There's better ways to learn.
Reminds me a bit of the person that got me into playing Soku and consequently taking a FG seriously for the first time. They were pretty similar where they'd have tons of fun and laugh at how silly their character is when they're winning, but complain the moment anything I did hit them and would say that im a "spammer".
I remember they tried to get me into DNF too and would say stuff like "ah man it's great you just get it with how to do builds cuz everyone else I've tried teaching this game just screws it up".
In hindsight I'm not surprised they prob didn't have many friends. It's a bit ironic too that they didn't like fighting online Soku players because they were "nerds", but that community was what fostered a very slow burn interest into FGs for me.
The "People that play for fun" is this terrible meme are the people who are typically the best at the game. They are the ones getting sweaty in training mode for hours at a time, they are the ones grinding ranked all day. If that wasn't fun for them, they wouldn't be doing it. Very few people can actually make a living playing competitive games, so most people are just playing for fun. The "toxic overcompetitive players" are typically the worst, least skilled players. They are the LowTierGods and the DSPs of the gaming world. They rage the most, they blame others for their own failings the most, etc.
The thing that's shitty is that the scrub that made this meme is trying to cast himself as the "playing for fun" type of person, when he's clearly the other type, and he's assmad about it.
no one writes something like this if they're not dripping with sweat
Plenty of people play all sorts of games out of a sence of compulsion or even a weird sense of spite.
The amount of people I have say they "play this for fun" while looking on edge and miserable every time the entire time is hugeand frankly kind of sad.
They will pull out the most unfun bullshit to beat me and then look upset that they had to do unfun bullshit to beat me.
Like there is some kind of demon compelling them agianst their will to seek victory at all costs all the while their human soul is taking emtotional damage.
I'm not saying it is the majority of guys let alone the majority of guys that beat me but let's not pretend it's not a tragically common guy.
@@jellewijckmans4836 I always just assumed for these people, their sense of self-worth was tied to whether they are winning or not. If you put these people in any competitive setting, whether it be games, marathon running, baseball, soccer, whatever, they'll be the same miserable pile of rage they are in fighting games.
There's something fundamentally broken with these people and how they see the world.
@@matrix3509 Maybe this is an unfair example because it's a festering pit of misery, but I have had so many people in League just straight up try to shame and belittle me when I said I was playing the game for fun. They'd take pride in the fact that they're not having fun, that _they_ are trying to get better and win at all costs like they think they're some anime protagonist.
I think you're right that it's an ego/self-image thing, where they can't imagine not seeing themselves as this self-sacrificing tryhard, and I think it's really sad that they don't have anything else to hang their hat on than being like top 25% at a video game. Like not even good, just sort of OK.
@@zusty9589fr bro I just write and read for fun what's their problem lol people that write or read more than 3 paragraphs are such sweats they should write in their sweatie-specific commment section!!!
The amount of people who one and done me after dying to me doing nothing but frame trapping them over and over again is staggering. The people who "play for fun" often times just don't like blocking and get mad when I press my buttons on them.
me a zangief not approaching at all, literally whole game all i do is anti air and grab when they get too close. Basically just zoning with gief all night bc people do the same shit forever.
They are getting mad at you for actually playing the game, people who lose like that are not even trying.
"I didn't pay 60 dollars to block"
@@azechase6597 Imagine approaching a stationary Gief on purpose. Couldn't be me. That's death right there.
@@ShjadeNexayre I approach far enough to hit with my longest button, and never any closer
This is completely true.
The truly toxic people are the guys who are obssesed with winning at anything they try, but don't want to put in the effort to be good at anything.
Competitive players have fun learning and casual players find fun independently of winning or loosing.
Those guys that complain about tryhards are the most toxic people in every multiplayer game.
That seems like a lot of words to say "DSP is a scrub"
@@Danceofmasks DSP is the blueprint for scrubs.
LTG
The ago old problem of people not being ok with losing, and making up reasons to protect egos.
My only response to people who complain that I'm only playing to win when they're only playing for fun is, "You can't do both?"
Improving and then winning is a big part of what makes fighting games, and most difficult or competitive games fun. Of course before you can improve you have to fail, and some folks just can't get past that.
On that note, if you're playing a game and nothing in it invites you to improve, don't feel bad about stopping
You don't have to get good to have fun, the process of getting good itself should be fun
Another W for Skill Based Matchmaking
Like i genuinely dont understand why people hate sbmm. If you hate its just outing yourself as a skilless tryhard that only plays to pubstomp
@@z1u512I’m sorry but using “tryhard” in the comments of this video is incredibly funny
@@z1u512 Depends if there's both a competitive and a casual mode. If the option to play with SBMM is right there, then complaining about SBMM is a self report that they're mald that the rank it gives them is lower than they want it to be.
Agreed, i don't really get why people hate it either
@@z1u512 they want to easily beat weak players to feel good.
Bots aren't real so they won't do that.
With sbmm they are going agains similar skill players and you need to learn more to win more.
If this was a few years ago, before I played fighting games, I unironically would've agreed with this meme. I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I know my brain framing the other players as "toxic overcompetitive players" and myself as "person that plays for fun" was only to protect my ego from the fact that I REALLY wanted to win and I wasn't. It allowed me to protect my ego from the fact that I wasn't good at something I wanted to be good at.
Somewhere along the way of Playing SF6, my mind shifted, and I became more interested in the learning process instead of winning. It makes the game much more enjoyable, since anything not going my way is an opportunity to try something new, instead of a excuse to spike a controller. Ironically, SF6 is also the game I am best at, and is probably the game I have sunk the most hours into. It's funny how that works.
Hey cool to see this perspective!
If your response to losing is something like "God he was so sweaty" or "He's such a tryhard" than you ARE the person on the right.
I quoted this post where all I said was I don't understand why casuals play a competitive game against competitive players and then get mad when they're competitive, and that shit blew up with thousands of people trying their hardest to misunderstand what I said and pointing out that the picture has the word toxic in it. There's no comma, the toxic nature is the overcompetitiveness if we are reading the image with an above 5th grade reading level. People shouting slurs in pub chat aren't toxic because they're overcompetitive, they're just toxic, the competitiveness has nothing to do with it. In a competitive game, the competition is the point and what people do for fun. People have this weird idea that because they don't take things seriously that only their version of fun is the correct one.
and if they get backed into a corner it changes to "Why are you taking it so seriously it's just a silly meme for fun"
for non-competitive people they sure do love their option selects
I saw you in the thread. It's crazy the mental leaps the replies were willing to make and the others that they refused to acknowledge.
Tbf were all closer for playing video games
Good on you for pointing out the distinction between the two. Playing to win and improve is not toxicity. Toxicity usually comes from insecurity/tilt (inability to take a loss or taking out negative emotions from a previous loss on someone when they finally win.). Leave it to twitter to take a slightly nuanced topic and misconstrew it in a way that makes a large group of people look bad lol. The rage bait is evolving.
Did you also quote the post where you admitted to driving drunk from EVO and were proud about it?
Can't wait for Sajam to make this video again 6 months from now.
Used to say stuff like this whenever I played Tekken. I realized at some point that I just hate playing tekken
Back when you had to go to arcades to play fighting games there was a dude who lost all the time but would cheerfully keep putting his quarter up to enter the rotation to play again. He just loved MvC(and all the other fighting games we ran through) and enjoyed being there, watching and participating. He would ALWAYS congratulate you when you beat him and point out something that he thought you did really well during the fight. He is still my inspiration and I try to live his energy whenever I'm playing these days, whether I'm winning or losing.
I remember seeing a comment on twitter soon after Tekken 8 came out that was something like "I just played through the story mode and all the character episodes! Loved the game! Can't wait for Tekken 9!". These games already have plenty of modes and systems for casual players to enjoy, because that's most of the people they're selling to. "Toxic overcompetitive players" are only gonna be in the ranked modes anyway
Based tweet
Like Sajam said, Battle Royale games are a perfect example of this. You go into every match NOT expecting to actually "win", but rather play as well as possible, feel skilled, pull off cool stuff and have an awesome game. Winning is one of those "Oh snap, we did it!" moments that happens every once in a while. Even when I get bodied in fighting games (and even if I get frustrated by it), I don't call someone a "sweat" or "tryhard" because we're all just trying our best and working to improve. Every time I see someone use those terms, I'm like "Oh, you mean someone trying to win in a competitive game :O?"
Win game, feel nothing.
Lose game, the voices are back.
I think the most fun I ever have with fighting games is when I have a really close match with someone, win or lose my brain just gets hit with a wave of "hell yeah, brother" when it all ends. It's also always really fun to play someone who's clearly way better and trying to slowly figure out ways to gain ground, regardless of whether you actually manage to win in the end or not.
I will tell my opponent after they beat me that i actually won because they are trying too hard and i just wasnt even trying
"For you, it was the biggest moment of your life. For me, it was a Tuesday."
Oro is that you?
“I was actually playing blindfolded with a USB steering wheel and my little brother was holding the controller for me.”
😂
idk who needs to hear this, but i promise if you just take a step back and give your opponent credit for the good things they do you will enjoy yourself SO much more. you’ll also probably have an easier time improving.
I've made it a habit at locals or when playing with friends to say "Nice jump-in" or "Clean punish". Totally improves the mood and makes playing, regardless of outcome, much more enjoyable.
Nah cause DR is dumb as hell and I hate the game designer at Capcom who thought of it specifically
Yes, but sometimes it’s good to take a break and not think about it in the moment if you’re having a really bad time. At least for me if I’m really tilted, “they’re so good” devolves into “they’re the same rank as me, why can’t I do the bare minimum?”
@@YabbyUra 100% absolutely, i've definitely been in the same spot. everyone gets frustrated/angry which is natural, and breaks (or even taking a longer time away from the game) helps clear my head and mitigate those feelings of self-defeat when they happen.
"The people on the right don't really interact with the people on the left very often, because they'll be matched up against people of the same skill level."
But Sajam, that's the problem. I'm toxic and overcompetitive and also bad.
Feels like this is most prevalent in games that force teamplay and team responsibility (e.g. MOBAs, team shooters) where there's always one guy more than willing to blame their teammates for the team's loss. Imagine you're just vibing and some schmuck on your team says you're not trying hard enough
It's still the same mentality behind the toxic overcompetitive meme, that being people preoccupied with winning but looking to blame other factors than themselves for "being denied" of that win
Yeah this does apply more to team games with toxic teammates
This is why i turn off my game audio and listen to music when i play games like that. No mic, no chat just playing at night by myself listening to outkast
It happens in Fighting games too, they just blame the character they're fighting. They don't have to be the one fighting them either! Guys will literally come out of the woodwork every major for every game, look at the winner, and if it was a top tier say "Oh they didn't deserve the win. They picked the strong character that's easy to win with."
@@Pokemonmovemaster sure, but if you don't have voice coms, who cares how hard they're raging? they can plug or whatever if they're mad enough, but if I can't hear them, who cares?
you'll run into similar stuff in any fighting game that actually has voice chat. some people just need to be a dickhead no matter what and they'll always find a way, but the fewer tools they have the less common it is.
"Casual" players who complain about toxic competitive players are actually just pupating toxic competitive players who haven't hatched yet.
No, they are toxic competitive players, they're just bad.
There's an inherent contradiction to this mentality that somehow never gets addressed by the other side when it comes up. If you're playing for fun, why do you care if you lose? If you can only have fun when you're winning, then *you* are the toxic competitive player ruining everyone's fun, actually.
Why would 'playing for fun' imply 'caring if you lose'?
The contradiction is in your sentence.
Anybody playing for fun doesn't care about winning or losing. It's about the experience.
It's like a trip. The fun is in the trip itself, not the destination.
When I played SF4 with my brother and got 25 losses in a row, I was having fun because the game is fun.
@@nyrva2876 "If you're playing for fun, why do you care if you lose?"
Do read it again, it's a rhetorical question against the fake "for fun" players who are the target of this video.
I dont care if i lose. I care if the other player makes the game boring on purpose because they take it that seriously when I dont. Think Zoners (playing lame). Justin Wong says he loves zoning so much because he enjoys making people angry. If your version of fun is taking fun away from other people why would I want to fight you? (master zangief first season staying above 1500 MR btw)
@@ethangonzalez9265 You’re just proving the point of this video, don’t you think? Zoning takes away your options, you are taking away your own fun.
@@malcovich_games Im not choosing to have lame games, the person playing opposite me is. which isnt most people so i dont want to deprive myself of playing altogether.
My problem stems from me feeling like I’m fighting for my life, but my opponent isn’t thinking about anything either of us are doing and still winning, and it drives me up the wall on my bad days. I understand this isn’t the case, and even when I look back at replays my win/loss ratio vs players that make me feel that way are actually in my favor, but in the moment I just can’t control that frustration. It doesn’t happen often any more, but when it does I’m genuinely angry, and despite recognizing that I can’t stop playing because I feel like I have to prove I can beat whatever “dumb” thing I think my opponent is doing. I know the issue is with me, I just haven’t figured out how to work through it yet.
You're not alone friend, I'm in the exact same position of doing everything I can to try and control my frustration and outbursts. We'll get there!
random input from a stranger whos been there, you are entirely free to ignore and tell me to kick rocks but:
framing situations where your opponent "isn't thinking" as moments where youre losing to something you "should be better than" isnt helpful(or true)
sometimes a good decision is just a good decision even if you aren't actively considering its value, and on top of that just like sajam says in the video you cant read minds
youve made up a guy in your head thats winning scenarios that youre putting a lot more thought into when chances are...
you probably look like the guy who isn't thinking very hard to the other guy! like, you're probably thinking about the setups you've learned and the ideal spacing and all this other stuff but i know for me, all those thoughts of "i need to not lose here, i need my opponent to respect me and stop mashing like an ape, i want to stop losing to THAT move because i'm better than that" just create tunnel vision. so now i'm paying less attention to my overall gameplan and becoming easier to read because i'm kneejerk reacting to situations, i'm looking for "the right things to do" instead of keeping calm and trusting in the effectiveness of my gameplan. so then when rock inevitably beats scissors, it reinforces that feeling of "man, how am i losing to this mindless stuff" when in truth i'm losing because i'm way too distracted in my own head and not willing to respond to what my opponent is showing me.
idk if any of this means anything or helps but that's what helped me sort my mental out
@@armorparade the input is welcome, it’s why I left a comment about it. I’m not sure if your solution will help, but I’ll try relaxing and not focusing on specific things so hard. I understand that how I feel in the moment isn’t the truth, I just can’t help but be mad about it in the heat of it all, which is what I’m struggling with. It’s an impulsive feeling rather than my general frame of mind. Normally I’m just having a good time. There might be some more nuance to my issue that I just can’t recognize though, so I’m not 100% sure what my deal is.
I felt the same way for a long time. Whenever I went to me local and played against other people who played fox i thought they were so dumb but they still beat me it was frustrating. It wasn’t until just a couple nights ago when I attended that same local and fought a newer fox player. In that moment I saw myself in them, and I saw all the things my old opponents were doing that pissed me off I was playing that exact same way. Not really but the things I was doing I recall being the exact parts of the game plan I used to hate fighting against. The only thing that changed was I was far more knowledgeable on the game. Swapping positions with my old self really gave me a new perspective on competitive gaming as a whole.
Solution is very simple. Start analyzing stuff like that right away because there is probably lack of knowledge or experience in how to deal with what ever they are doing. Just remind your self that this is perfect learning opportunity and it doesn't matter even if you can't stop it just look at it and hit the lab. You know exactly why it is dumb but do not have ability or knowledge to stop it in a way you would expect, so it is important to be aware of this and use to your advantage instead of being pissed of. Channel the situation into positive one.
I think there’s an important distinction that wasn’t mentioned. It’s not “better players” it’s “competitive players”. Generally I have found it absolutely true that a non-negligible portion of basically any game will actively shit on others not because they’re bad, but because they aren’t competitive. For example, if someone wants to play Smash Ultimate with items, more competitive players will give them a disgusted look as a “how could you even suggest such a thing”. And that also applies to pretty much anyone who doesn’t take whatever particular game seriously. It’s especially bad in team based games where you will actively see people shitting on their own teammates for not going for the win in games like Call of Duty
this is actually very true but leans more into the interpersonal interactions and discussions surrounding a game instead of gameplay (e.g. the smash example, that is only going to happen when you are playing with somebody for the first time and/or actively talking to them about the game)
the cod example might be a game design issue, because most of the games don't have ranked modes (some do), and there's not actually that much incentive to try and win any individual match. there's no punishment for leaving, and a lot of people might be trying to grind out their challenges instead of playing the objective. maybe skill-based matchmaking solves this in many cases, but if that keeps happening, it might be time to pick a game that is more competitively friendly
I am the Midwest drunkard mashing buttons in bracket in-between accepting shots of Malort from strangers.
If I lose, I lose.
If I muck up your bracket run? LOL
LMAOOOO
Based as hell
Absolute royalty behavior.
This is the behavior I live for. Keep it up king.
My GOAT
I'd legit just off myself if you mucked up mine
I think what Sajam said about toxicity not coming from a competitive additude but more inexperience in dealing with losses is very smart. I remember watching a GDC talk about character balance by a developer who worked on Playstation All Stars who mentioned that statistically most players feel like something new (or that they haven't fought much) is unfair/unbeatable unless they are winning 70%+ of the time. While it'll obviously going vary a lot person to person (and will definitely be lessened by experience) it's a very interesting notion, and quite telling if you consider what kind of players are the most likely to rage at a game, (No seasoned tournament player is going "This guy has no life!" when they lose.). Now ingame trash talk doesn't effect FGs much (unless you're offended by the rare teabagger) and trash talk from your teammates is non-existent; but for team based competitive games, my heart goes out there to all the people, especially new players, that can play league of legends solo queue (I feel for you junglers) or Overwatch ranked tank solo queue and take crap from their teammates without either being toxic themselves or muting chat/leaving. The image that sparked this video is quite ironic but I think it's worth considering the casual players of other genres and what they may percieve as a toxic or "overly competitive" additude as well, even if the sentiment is misguided towards the latter.
Nah cause unironically low rank Junglers in League would shrimply be more useful doing a two person top lane.
They already steal my farm anyway, at least they wouldnt feed other lanes too
toxic teammates is part of why i will never play lol again and why i avoid teambased competitive games like the plague
i wouldnt care if people dc'd mid match but the harassment you get from just playing is crazy
@@dj_koen1265I feel ya. I don't really care if my opponents talk trash but it hits different when it comes from someone you're supposed to be working with.
"Why do my sweaty opponents care about winning so much?!?!" - guy who is mad because he lost
I agree with the video in the scenario of you vs opponent but at the same time I think this image makes a lot more sense if you think of both players of the image being on the same team. I think it's fair to say most have experienced at least once that one guy on your team who just wants to win and flames everyone anytime something goes wrong.
These are games, unless you are competing for money or prizes, priority #1 should always be to have fun. It don’t matter if to you that means playing serious or goofing off, as long as you are enjoying yourself you have completed the objective.
Somebody who self indentifies as a Timmy is rarely a Timmy.
Your comment about battle royales is spot on. So many times my buddy just makes us land at safe spots far away just for us to walk around the map for 15 minutes without anything happening
While I mostly agree with everything said here especially in fighting games, I definitely can see this and have experienced this in other more team based games. Where it's not me loosing that's making me upset, and it's not the other team being better that's annoying. But rather my one teammate who keeps team killing me, jumping in my face, and voting to kick me because they don't like how I play, or think that I haven't tried hard enough while we're playing in casual. That also is what "overcompetitive" means to me, it's fine to be upset with how your team performs in a competitive or even casual setting. It's just who you might be and how you enjoy and feel about things, even if it's not the best mindset for growth. Overcompetitive to me is when that want to win and agitation at failure to, consumes and controls their behaviors to an extent that it becomes self destroying. Screaming at teammates over the mic 99% of the time will not make them play better, but will usually make your chances of winning worse. It's when the competitive part of us hurts its own chances of winning.
I really appreciate the videos talking about topics likes this (the SBMM series comes to mind). They've helped me reevaluate my own mindset when playing competitive games and improved my overall enjoyment. I won't pretend that I don't still get salty sometimes, especially when I'm in the Battle Hub and wind up fighting a Master rank player (I'm Silver 3 lol, wtf is a combo?), but I always find myself coming back to these vids and reminding myself to find fun in the journey, rather than only finding joy in winning.
I think the focus here really oughta be on the word "toxic". in fact if you drop "overcompetitive" entirely, suddenly the meme becomes fully accurate in regard to almost any game with any kind of PVP.
anyway all games should be either strictly in-person or have zero ability for players to communicate with each other.
I'm so glad I already kinda went through a phase in a non-fighting game in which I had this exact mentality, the whole "The other team is just full of sweats and blah blah blah"
Nowadays, I just enjoy myself! I pick the Biggest Big Body Grappler on the roster, and have the time of my life slowly inching toward my opponent across SEVERAL games!
This video just called out 99% of the rainbow six siege community
3:17 That's totally it. Which is why I love games like KoF where it gives you tiny victories as the match goes on (Getting to face an entirely new character feels like a big achievement even though you're really only taking 1/3 of their life bar) or anime fighters because just breaking a really good player's block string can be satisfying. I feel like fighting games give you things to be satisfied with besides a blanket victory it's just a matter of finding where those victories are
Ah, the old adage of "Everyone worse than me is a loser. Everyone better than me has no life".
> fixed an issue where losing players would option select "playing for fun"
I don't think its about winning or losing, but about the ego damage that happens when you feel helpless. I think most people are fine losing when they feel they got to do something but the other person did better, even if they knew they had no shot of winning, at least they could get a lick in. But when it feels like every option just leads to more failure over and over, you see even the most calm people start to get tilted. It definitely happens more to casuals bc they lack critical information such as how to block, how to punish, and the opponent exploits that to create a one sided game and they just don't know what to do against it. Not to say its a problem w fighting games, its just the nature of playing a 1v1 competitive game that sometimes you just have to hold that feeling of humiliation, and some people deal with it by scrubposting.
This is definitely the essence of it for me, I think. It's not that I can't deal with losing, it's that I want to spend my time playing the game, like... actually having fun. And that feeling of "I couldn't do _anything_ that round" is just not that fun, especially if it happens often.
Honestly, I agree. I kind of have the same mindset.
I know one game where that image is correct, and it's ironically World of Warcraft PvE. A lot of people in parties/raids get SO MAD when their teammates don't put out the numbers they decide are appropriate, even in content that's easily cleared, and will petition to kick people from groups for not "pulling their weight". It's really bizarre.
Shoutout to "Why it's rude to suck at WoW" by Folding Ideas for a full breakdown of how it got there.
@@GerBessa Ooh, thanks for the tip, I'll check that one out. I've been a returning player running classic casually, and I've been perplexed as to why people get angry at other players in easily cleared heroic dungeons.
I just wanna win man. Whether or not I'm serious about the game at all, I've never played a game and *not* tried to win. I don't get upset if I lose but I think the idea of playing without the objective to win and improve is so strange. If I didn't wanna win at a fighting game I wouldn't be blocking on wakeup or doing combos and at that point why even play at all?
Yeah mentioning the chill people who are cracked at games minding their own business is so real.
Aceu is a prime example of someone who plays like a complete demon in Apex and yet you tune into his streams and he’s like “haha that was sick” and just keeps it pushing like he didn’t just shred through half the lobby in two minutes 💀
I used to play a shit load of TF2 and my god the self proclaimed casuals in that game are some of the most toxic and elitist people I have ever come across in a player base. Whenever I heard “I’m playing the game like it was meant to be played” it was never from a try hard soldier main begging his medic for heals, it was ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS from a hoovie giving out sandviches and using try hard like a slur whenever someone asked if they could help out the team
stay away from tf2, groomer
Only case I feel this meme applies is with smash at parties.
To specify, some people that are very competitive are not able to play outside of 1v1s, and some party players cannot accept when one person wins over and over
Holy moly is that R Crumb for the thumbnail
Love the thumbnail, it's 100% accurate. When I first started playing street fighter all I wanted was to land the hardest combo in an online match and I would lose 80% of the time and would be salty and call the other guy tryhard, but now that I got way better at sf I'm chill even when I lose because I know what I'm doing
My favorite quote of all time:
"Who is going to get competitive with a game like this?"
"I'm competitive! *inhales* WHAT'S THE POINT OF A GAME IF NOT TO COMPETE?!"
"Sweaties" becoming a pejorative always baffled me.
Need to send this every Dead By Daylight player.
Sajam said it already but its all about the mindset. I was recently feeling burned by newer fighting games and decided to pickup older games (3rd strike, Alpha 3, VS and +R)
I had no experience at any of these games and most players have been at it for years.
yet despite losing most matches (Badly too mind you), I was having way more fun because my mindset was about learning and trying stuff out rather than trying to optimise of hyper focus on strategies and shit
I've recently been the bad player trying to get better but losing anyway and getting more and more frustrated, and I want help fixing that.
I think the majority of the issue is mindset. It's not so much that I'm losing, but what I'm interpreting the loss to mean. I'm aware of that and yet I don't seem to be able to control it.
It's the longest road to travel in anything you want to take pride in. That painfully mediocre realm of "Intermediate", where you neither feel like you can excuse yourself as a beginner, yet also haven't achieved a quality that you can recognize in yourself. It really depends on your goals, what it is you actually want to achieve, but I can tell you right off the bat that the goal should never be only to winning. Playing only to win is a hollow place of unreasonable expectations and inevitable disappointments. Recognizing that is what helped me curb some of that mentality, anyway. As Daigo puts it in his book "The Will to Keep Winning", victory is only the results of you reaching your personal goals and not the goal in and of itself.
So what is the goal then? That'll always be up to you to find out, but it's best done taking it one step at a time. How do I convert X situation into my good combos? How do I stop players from doing X and Y? How do I beat this crazy-strong move? How do I keep myself in my most advantageous position? How do I prevent my opponents from getting in said position? What am I bad at and need some practice in? Focusing in on these smaller accomplishments allows you to both have tangible objectives you can be proud of overcoming, while passively gaining you the knowledge and skills necessary to eventually win.
It's also important to realise that not all good players become so the same way doing the same thing. If you're going to become good at fighting games, you're gonna need to figure out how you want to be good at them. To draw from personal example, I know alot of people that are absolute combo-monsters, but I never really liked doing long and elaborate combos for example, so honing those didn't really give me any satisfaction. Trying to get good by competing with them directly at that is thus fruitless, because I just don't have it in me to be good at that. Instead, I'd learn some simple, yet efficient combos with characters that could get big damage from lower execution and made it my goal to beat them at neutral and scrambles. It's not that I neglect learning combos and execution, but I narrowed my focus to the things I cared to get better at and only practice the less fun parts as much as I deem necessary.
I hope any of that helped you find something to make losing feel a bit less bitter or at least give you something to help it go down.
Simply stop playing if you dont have fun as a new player, fun wont suddenly materialize out of thin air when you are "good"
I've been on an extended break from fighting games mainly because I can't decide on a controller, but also because I've been stuck in a state in my mental where I want to play for fun but there's a deeply rooted part of me that desperately wants to win while doing so. Logically, I know that the only way that can happen is if I've learned enough to consistently play well and win, but I also lack the patience to get there in the first place. I've been trying to take a more measured approach with other competitive games, though, so we'll see how that develops when I inevitably go back.
People can play competitive games for fun casually, especially nowadays with fighting games since they have good offline modes/content again, as well as competitively without going to tournaments/participating in online tournaments, depends on the person. Left fighting games plenty of times to play casual games and competitive (sometimes truly toxic) games like CSGO and League but I always return to them because it just scratches that itch for me where I can see the improvement in my own gameplay the more I play and learn and the games that I'm having with people become more fun, especially when my opponent's better than I am.
alot of my friends behave like this and its really frustrating :(
0:15 there are Taco Bell fighting games???
The five-second cat clips are what keep me coming back
I've been feeling this meme playing Commander in Magic the Gathering lately. It's unique in that there's supposed to be a pre-game discussion where players decide on a power level to play at, but it's highly subjective and usually ends with some hurt feelings. Even playing with the same group of friends, someone will decide to upgrade their deck and it creates a power imbalance.
Where I can absolutely see this happening is queueing in team games without friends
And the solution to that is: queue with friends
yeah when you play a teamgame and you are just trying to play and your team just keeps harassing you because you are "bad" then this meme is pretty accurate
I think a big part of the problem is that, in many PvP games, losing badly amounts to _actively being able to play the game less._ Constantly dying in shooters means waiting to respawn a lot and never getting to use the good guns. Getting beat down in a fighting game means you spend most of the match either actively getting comboed, or feeling like you can't do anything because you'll get comboed if you try. That's the part that's not fun. And when you're frustrated, it's easy to put blame on the most immediate thing causing the frustration, which is the way the other person is playing. I'm not saying it's _right_ to do that, but also, like... I get it.
Your cat was clearly sweating sleeping on your desk. It should be put in a separate queue for competitive snoozers.
@ the Elden Ring community 😂 I see this thought process constantly. Very well put 👌🏾
I agree with everything cept the spawn camping bit. That's just not letting the other person have a chance to play the game. Especially in game modes where killing the enemy at spawn doesn't actually win the game and is just delaying the end to rub it in. Saying I'd justify it in my own mind if I was doing it doesn't apply because I wouldn't in the first place.
You know that gif of a guy writing and the letters and his arm start burning?
That's Sajam in this vid.
I remember complaining about “sweats” a lot when I was a teenager. Now I’m 24 and I agree with this entire video, I still get into that mindset every once in a while but I’ve gotten better at calling myself out when I do.
It’s such an ass backwards thought process. “Oh I’m playing for fun, but if you win that means you’re a sweat. If I win then I’m just having fun”. These people think they are entitled to an easy match, that it should be served to them on a silver platter. And the moment there is any resistance they act like they’ve had a stick shoved up their ass for the entire day.
Dunking on nerds capped off with giving your kitty a lil' smooch? Sajam got this life thing figured out.
Are you saying I DON'T have to place the entirety of my self worth on the outcome of my next match that I opted into?
This case can indeed exist tho. The case i`m reffering to is in team games, when you`re trying things for fun and as a result, not doing well while some tryhard on the team is getting mad at you and blaming every death he has on you. I kinda understand when you`re in ranked, but this happens all the time in casuals and it ruins all the fun.
I think there is also 2 parts to this kinda meme or mindset.
I think people also apply the "Toxic Over competitive players" label to anyone playing with the goal of intentionally pissing other players off. Im not referring to just being good. Im referring to the "will use any in-game method to act smug and gloat over everything" type of players. The ones who find an exploit that can hold a game match hostage and load into games repeatedly with the sole goal of abusing it to ruin the other people's day.
As much as I agree with this sentiment for most games, dead by daylight’s unique 1 v 4 creates a very toxic and evil group of players who form “bully squads” where their entire objective is to bully the killer into quitting
I know I engage with games in an unhealthy way. I've been playing games for 26 years so my competitive drive is out of control lol.
spoken like someone who has never played a casual game of destiny 2 crucible
There is definitely a type of player that when they realize they're playing against a weaker player, that they start playing more toxic. It's not 'over competitive' per-se, but they'll start spamming shit, they'll stop approaching at all, they start trying to force one particular combo/interaction that want, or they'll start only trying to punish one singular thing you're doing just to piss you off. Importantly, after they realize that they're better, their play style will completely change. It's not just about someone who is campy or spams, it's about people who only do those things when they realize their opponent is weak.
These people aren't that common but it is a more explicit type of toxic that can't just be chalked up to "they're playing the game normally and you're overreacting to losing".
And to be fair, I've absolutely been that guy before. I am rarely that guy, but sometimes some bullshit on ranked just turns you into a villain and you gotta take the frustration out on someone.
idk, i dont see it as toxic but rather as forcing them to learn this one thing they dont know how to deal with
@@dj_koen1265 I can't speak for you obviously, but every time I've ever done that, it was absolutely with toxic intent. That Justin Wong "Welcome to the real world, you gonna learn today" vibes.
IMO though, outside of a tournament setting where playing to win is the *only* objective, forcing something like that onto another player, unless they explicitly asked to practice it, is kinda toxic. It may be good for them in the long run if they do figure out the counterplay in that moment, but otherwise it only serves to frustrate them even more.
@@cebo494 i never do it to annoy them but more because its funny and to force them to adapt
if they dont block my sweep ill sweep until they adjust, thats the essence of fighting games to me
For me at least, that's usually just not wanting to be sweaty when I don't have to. Playing fighting games can be genuinely exhausting, so if I realize I can get away with winning with less effort, I'm probably going to.
As someone who literally played my first few online matches in street fighter 6 yesterday, the most fun i had was a set were i lost 1-5, but it always felt like i could do it, and i understood that the reason i lost was mostly because, i don't really know any matchups, and my execution is bad. But that one round i got was f***ing exhilarating.
But i think it mostly come down to mindset and understanding.
I went into it with the mindset of i want to learn, get better and hopefully have some fun.
But i also had an understanding that there are players that are better than me and that i don't know the matchups and i don't have execution and i don't truly understand my characters toolkit.
I do have an extra theory though. There have been tests with animals where they have found that, if you have two rats play fighting, the bigger rat will have to let the smaller rat win, every now and again, or else the little rat will stop play fighting with the bigger one.
I think the same is true for most humans, but i believe this can be alliviated with the proper mindset and understanding, but i also think most people have a limit. But this limit can be different depending on your personality and how close the matches were. I'm sure if i had spent all day yesterday getting stomped, i would not have as fond a memory of it as i have. But i got some close matches, though i am sure without the mindset that i want to improve, this could easily have pissed me off.
And this is why proper matchmaking is so important, but i belive player mindset and understanding of our own abilities and an acceptance of that is even more important.
i believe frustration in gaming comes from a lack of understanding one way or another
and working on having a healthy mindset will make you enjoy games more as well
i have personally noticed that if im feeling bad outside of a game it will bleed into the game, but if i feel good then i will enjoy games no matter what happens,
(well except people being toxic but by picking the right games and the right places you can avoid toxic people from affecting your mood)
My brother and I have played fighting games our whole lives and he has consistently been better than me, so most of our sets are like 95-2 but it's always a great time just doing cool shit, plus it gives me such a good avenue to get better.
a "for fun player" who complains about "tryhards" are not playing for fun, they want easy wins.
Sajam, my man. You’ve got some amazing cats. Just amazing. Big fan of the content too of course by goodness what good cats
I remember playing tekken 7. I played it for fun with chloe (because cute) and didnt know any fighting game theory except about punish and high/mid/lows. I somehow climbed to brawler rank and I had fun playing. After quitting the game after a session however I got alot of hate comments on my steam profile about how I was a spammer and that I was a horrible player. It was the first time people went to the length to hate on my steam profile, and it really killed my enjoyment for the game. I never played that game afterwards.
Saying that the people who complain are bad doesnt make their prevalence in fighting games any less prevalent, and it does turn off new players that would have liked the game otherwise.
i think the toxic overcompetitive people are the ones who are actually toxic, the ones who flame you for being bad and hate you for being good
I wonder if a mod that changes the text and audio for you lose/defeat to "Good effort we are all winners here" would be popular.
I think the problem with the image is putting "toxic" and "overcompetitive" on the same person.
If it was just "toxic players" macing the people that play for fun, I could list a number of behaviors and games that would qualify, but just for an example off the top of my head: when a team realizes they're up against newbies and starts spawncamping them, even though the objective is to push the cart/hold the point/whatever and not being fulfilled by the spawncamping, so they're not only crushing the weaker players and basically preventing them from playing the game, they're also making the game longer by not even trying to complete the objective effectively.
But that last detail is important: if they were really overcompetitive, they wouldn't be wasting time dragging out a game against opponents that are no challenge when they could just easily win and move on to the next match. They might *call themselves* "overcompetitive" as an excuse for their behavior, but they're just toxic.
Once again, Sajam continues to be the voice of reason within a toxic echo chamber.
The only part I could agree with is that it can be boring when people are using the same weapon, character, etc. This is immediately null if you are playing in a competitive mode
Genuinely fuck people that play shit like snake eyes in fucking casual yugioh
"Is the EVO to you?" "It's not that serious." *rage*
gamers when someone plays the game the way it was intended to be played
one person describes why they play, the other person describes how they play.
it’s not mutually exclusive, you can play to have fun, and do so by being toxic and over competitive.
This happens in cooperative games where the only opposing force are computer generated enemies. If you run meta options in lower difficulty content you can get accused of being soulless and not able to have fun.
I remember when MK1 came out and i didn't realize voice chat was on by default. I absolutely cooked someone with Scorpion/Frost and he went "okay bro take it to Kombat League!" "What a try hard!" And i was playing Kasual because at the time Kombat League sets took way to long to play and you couldn't leave. Bro should be glad i wasn't mic'ed up. But like damn sorry for doing well in the game I like. I totally get the other side and i was screamed at by a Johnny Cage player that i was bad. So it sucks both ways but hey...theres a winner and a loser and that shouldn't affect your self worth.
moste, can we have the edited meme used for the thumbnail? i feel like it will be useful for whenever another person decides to start this drama again
Your version of this image makes sense from your point of view, but I don't think you should discount out the "Toxic" part like you did. People who tbag, smurf, rage quit, use cheat software, type slurs in chat, and send death threats are probably who this image really refers to. In your mind you believe the guy on the right always wins and the guy on the left always loses. In truth the guy who sent me a picture of a gun and my IP address over a loss in DBFZ is not helping me have fun with the game. This image speaks to me beyond your bubble of "Winners are always considered over competitive and toxic." Probably because you win often and get called this often and get top ranks in what you play often. I don't, I am middling rank in most games I play and someone who smurfs for example can get REALLY heated when they are beaten by somebody who is just pressing buttons like I am. The things they say and do afterwards are what suck the fun out of the game.
There's a third type of player that I don't entirely understand that I ran into once in League.
Some friends had been mumbling about maybe getting back into it, so I decided to load it up and play a bot match to warm up in case we got a chance to pull a whole group together. I just played a stupid gimmick AP Soraka. Would never work in a real game of course, but it was against bots; anything works. But then some guy on the team got super mad about it, started typing in caps about how I'll never go anywhere and started listing the correct items for Soraka.
The guy had already died to towers several times, even before they started typing. What was going on with them? They clearly weren't competitive, so what were they exactly?
yeah i remember a month or so ago thinking why not run a normal game again to see if it can be fun? then got harassed by my teammates all game despite doing my best and not even playing that badly yet they all blamed me because they were dying to the enemy jungler over and over again
after that i uninstalled the game again, i tend to avoid teambased games in general because of stuff like that
Enjoying the challenge… is the shooting match. Relishing the competition. Loving the thrill of performing. It’s all psychology my friends. Look up flow psychology. The experience is everything. If you’re enjoying it great!! If not, reflect on why? And fix it. Or do something else.
I get really mad at my own incompetence when playing pvp in any game. I'm dropping combos, fucking up inputs, misreading the opponent, reacting too slow, missing, etc. And then because of that anger I try to repeat what I screwed up before, but correctly (and failing again). I'm not fighting the opponent, I'm fighting myself.
This is much less an issue in singleplayer for me, it's purely a pvp issue due to the added pressure of trying to win. It just ends up as an exercise in frustration for me every time. I'm not having any fun, even when I win, because all the mistakes and disappointment at my lack of progress overshadow any possible enjoyment I might have gotten from the match. And if there are daily/weekly missions, like say win x amount of matches in battle hub for example, that frustration only gets bigger because I can't distance myself from failing to accomplish an OPTIONAL objective.
So that's why I stick to single player modes such as world tour, arcade, and trails. They're made for me.