Hey besties, Icarus Thiccarus back with another slammer of a video. Don't forget to peep that description to learn a little about why I'm wearing a respirator and gloves because getting hurt building rockets does n o t spark joy! Peace and love!
Joey, I'm glad you've embraced the Icarus Thiccarus moniker we posited from your last video. I greatly appreciate your safety focus and I am very much looking forward to more from this series.
Joe, these are some of the best composite fins I've seen on any HPR. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this resource. Rocketeers everywhere will benefit from this for years to come.
@@AirCommandRockets you really think MDF works as well as a mat? I would have thought A) you would end up with ridges at your cut lines and contamination. B) you would encounter 'skating' reinforcement when trying to cut. But I haven't tried it, and now I will. Thank you for the suggestion! 👍
So, this was pretty impressive. When I saw you were doing layup and bonding I thought "Oh, Boy, this will be interesting!" As an aircraft tech and former bonding department manager at a composite aircraft company, it sounds like you've done your homework. I only cringed when I saw you sanding without gloves, but it looked like you learned how nasty that is by the end. Pro Tip: If you find your hands super itchy after sanding, try sticking masking tape to the area and pulling it off. Also, the amount of Hysol you were using poses very little threat of significant exotherm with the size of heater you were using.
Hey Joe, I have 10 years of experience working with composites and have been to multiple courses on the subject. Just want to give you some tips. The next time you do composite layups, consider placing your fabric between two pieces of heavy mil plastic that doesn’t stretch. Add your resin and squeeze out the extra. This keeps you from working air bubbles in the resin and creating “Resin Foam”. On the outer most layer of the plastic you can have your shapes pre drawn out and ready for cutting or use an aluminum or some other material as a stencil. Use a sharp roller cutter to cut through your two layers of plastic and saturated fabric. Next all you have to do is peel the bottom layer and stick the fabric in place. The top layer of plastic also helps keep the shape of the fabric from being distorted. Final peel that last layer off and you will find your edge quality to be much better and not have frayed edges. Another tip is you can take the “plastic sandwiches saturated fabric”and place them in the fridge so they don’t cure as fast on you, this also makes removing the plastic easier. Keep up the good work. Also look into using micro-balloons/ microspheres for making your filets. It’s much lighter and is the same chemical make up of your resin.
I'm thinking most optimized tip to tip layups use progressively stepped reinforcements. You don't want a thick step at the edge, so (ideally) you start with full coverage and work your way smaller. While this may seem counter intuitive, when it comes to sanding and faring you realize that you are sanding just the tips of some layers off while the smaller layers protect the full length fibers of the layers below. You can do your layup inversely on your peel-ply (on top of wax paper or PET/Mylar) This is essentially an uninhibited pre-preg. Having the peel ply in place on the top of the stack when you flip it onto the fin can makes for easier positioning because you have 'handles' that project out beyond the edges and aren't saturated like the laminate. Everyone is familiar with the 'sticky dance', trying to get the reinforcement in place while your gloves won't let go. 🙂
I highly agree with these tips! I've used similar techniques, and learned them from a fellow lifetime composites guy. Haven't messed with micro-balloons yet, but I've seen them in action on a few repairs.
In building a rocket filets for the fins are structural. Do you think micro-balloons are strong enough? I was told Cabosil would be a better option for strength.
@@cmcdonald9896 Late to the party on the replies but here's my take/what my community tends to use where it matters. Microballoons are good because they (significantly) reduce the mass, as well as make it thicker, rather than just including an agent to chemically thicken the resin. When you want to add tension strength to the fillet (because a chunk of epoxy has plenty of compressive strength) then chopped glass/carbon fibre in the resin will help - like microballoons, it'll lower the density of the epoxy mix/fillet, but like rebar in concrete, is helps take tension loads through the whole material rather than cracking the epoxy. Like referenced in the video too, you're taking the strengths of both parts into the finished product without each component significantly reducing the properties of the other part. Though getting a nice smooth poured fillet won't happen with fibres in it, that'll need an amount of love with powertools or sandpaper to get a good even radius between fin and can.
Hey Joe, great video. Just one thing I picked out, around 20:40 you said the process of applying resin to the cloth is called 'prepreg'. It's actually called "wetting out". Prepreg is a dry fibreglass or carbon fabric that has already been impregnated with resin and allowed to partially cure. The fabric is stored in a chiller to prevent it from fully curing and is then placed in an autoclave once laid up to fully cure the part. It's a completely different process to the "wet layup" which you are doing here.
epoxy tip: after mixing for about a minute, pour the epoxy in a new cup. This will help ensure there are no pockets of unmixed epoxy at the corners and surface of the cup. Keep up the good work, very inspiring!
I certainly feel a lot better about my cure oven. I use a regular, old-school light bulb, which is made for continuous operation, unlike a hair dryer. I can control the temperature inside by putting more or less insulation (blankets) on the box.
"I am not a chemist" he says. Well you could be. Along with mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, software engineer, production manager, flight controller, physicist. Should I keep going? Great job man, keep up the good work and you'll get to the Karman Line in no time!
Thank you so much for making this video! We're a student organization at the University of California, Riverside and are planning to dive into using composites on our aircraft in the near future, so the timing of this is absolutely perfect!!
Check out the raptor aircraft channel. m.ua-cam.com/users/RaptorAircraftvideos From CAD to RC model to flying prototype. Lots of mistakes shown to learn from. "Dark Arrow" is another carbon fiber aircraft. More of a formal engineering approach. Has not flown yet.
A tip for trimming the cloth after its laid up. Before the epoxy is fully cured, but after it has started to stiffen up, it will be the consistency of chewing gum. You can cut it with a razor knife right up to the fin edge. This will save you tons of time sanding and will almost eliminate fiber glass dust. A proven technique that we use on composite aircraft.
I’m building a fiberglass Long-EZ in my garage. A few things I’ve learned: Consider pre-pregging all 7 layups on the table before applying to the rocket. Allows more attention and dexterity to weave orientation and bubbles while still on a flat surface. Also, if you sandwich all layups between 2 sheets of wax paper (much cheaper than mylar) it allows you to cut the whole layup with scissors to a more exact and neat final shape. You can also draw on the top sheet of wax paper with a marker and a ruler with no mess. Just peel away the wax paper before applying. I use EZ proxy from aircraft spruce.com. Longer cure time but ideal for lightweight aircraft. If you can pinpoint the direction of the higher stress loads you can use lightweight unidirectional (UNI) cloth and strategically align the weave. My entire wings are done this way. Consider mixing your 2 part epoxy with microballlons. Lots of strength, easily sandable and most importantly, lightweight. I use it all the time for fillets. With 14-16 ply fins I think you can opt for much thinner and lightweight fin cores. Rigid, thin foam would work. Easily carved and shaped. Less mass, less drag, higher altitude. Keep in mind I’ve never built a Mach 1 rocket, so take all this with a grain of salt. Just some thoughts. Nice work.
Excellent video. You not being a pro really helped make it sound less complex. You also went through the steps in a more clear fashion than I have seen before. It made it a lot more approachable than someone's cell phone video going through the process real quick.
This is the best mood I've ever seen you in for a video, and it's a marked improvement since december. I hope it means you're doing well and living a sustainable and enjoyable rocket life :)
Hey Joe, 55 minutes on a 60 minute epoxy is cutting it really close. One thing you're doing that can cut into your work time is mixing the epoxy in a tall cup. The epoxy tends to self heat as it cooks off in a dense container and this reduces the work time. If you mix your epoxy in a shallow flat container (those disposable baking pans work great) it will not be able to concentrate heat and it will be workable a lot longer.
My cure oven was 1 mil poly drop cloth stapled to the ceiling and the workbench, heated by a cube room heater with a chunk of fiberglass HVAC filter taped over it. (This was for varnishing furniture in cold weather, nowhere near as stringent.) Worked great, not only reducing cure time between coats, but kept the unfinished garage dust out. It's absolutely amazing how doing simple ad-hoc things like this can improve your work. Even a rough jig, for instance, is better than doing it by hand--especially if you have to reproduce the cuts or drill the same holes on a semi-production basis. More accurate, and much faster than measuring and working by hand.
No. "MY ROCKET IS GOING TO DIE!" While spin stabilization will help mitigate any assemetry in thrust it does use energy that could be contributing to altitude. It is drag at low altitude but the only thing that will keep you going straight as the fins do nothing for you when there is no atmosphere left for correcting force. Just like artificial gravity, that spin is creates a huge load on payload (like battery and ejection charge connections)
I have no intention to ever fly rockets myself, most of the time I don't fully understand what you are talking about or how it works and why it is important but I still enjoy your content and find your sense of humor and overall presentation great and refreshing, I've been subscribed for a while and I can tell that besides getting better at "rocketing" you have become an excellent presenter and your confidence had noticeably improved! Keep up the good work, the incredible energy you have and most of all keep enjoying doing what you do because it seems like lately you are - more than before, more than ever. Cheers!
As an architect and modeler I know that cutting exact pieces many times would be a pain in the ass, for a new rocket the greatest thing you can do it’s trying to make all those complex forms on a laser (or water if laser isn’t powerful enough) cutter, apparently could be more expensive but it saves you so much time and resources if you make it ring first time and have to cut again. I really enjoy your videos and building series, hope you can make some videos explaining the creation process of the AVA flight computer
composite guy and vet from the US Air force here and can confirm water break test is still used. Alot of composite parts on MH-60 and H-53 helicopters, not to mention the rotor blades "blades are a composite metal bonded honeycomb" at about 21 min in is what we call in the biz prepreg
Thanks for sharing your journey. After watching your video, I came up with a few ideas that might help improve your processes. 1. Have you tried cutting the fiberglass with pinking shears? They are used to cut fabric and reduce the amount of shedding. 2. Consider adding orientation lines to each layer of your layup. I'd use a long vertical line in the middle with a couple horizontal lines at 1/3 and 2/3 the length of the line. The lines will be visible through the fabric when wetted with resing. This should allow you to quickly orient each layer. 3. When casting resin, pulling a vacuum on the resin, after mixing, greatly reduces bubbles in the casting. You might consider pulling a vacuum on your resin mix before applying to the cloth. I use a foodsaver machine. 4. Line your box cure oven with "silver" coated insulation to retain the heat. Add some small vent holes around the bottom edge to allow any fumes to escape rather than blow back near the dryer heating element. Seal around hair dryer hole to improve heating efficiency. These are just some ideas from a thankful subscriber. Keep up the good work.
There are specialized metal rollers, designed to help consolidate layers/remove air bubbles and excess resin! Also vacuum bagging is another really cool technique you could experiment with. *Ah, shoulda watched the whole video, seeing that you mentioned vacuum bagging
"I need to calm down a little bit". No, no you don't. The roll-rate rant is my favorite part. That sounds like engineering to me -- this little minor thing, does it matter? Hell yes it matters. This other thing you think matters? It just doesn't. Learnings from crunching the numbers. Love it.
When I used to boat build we used metal compression rollers to roll out the glass. I also recommend you try pulling the peel ply back with the lights off. You'll often get a cool blue lightning flash effect.
Bubble buster (ribbed) rollers really help consolidate the laminate and force excess resin to the surface. The last thing you want in a layup is having your fabric floating. Joe says 1:1 weight ratio for fiberglass cloth to epoxy, but the reality is that optimal is 80:20 or higher. But you can't get there without a vacuum bag (or autoclave) The matrix isn't offering anything for strength. It is only there to hold the fiber in place.
You are really flexible to get up on that table. Good Job. I am really happy to see you using gloves and a respirator when using that fiberglass. YES! :-) Hey, we are all just dudes who figured something out. Some of us (you) did something cool enough to write home about.
Not only does a higher temperature decrease the cure time for epoxy, for most epoxies it also increases final strength and temperature resistance. Most epoxies lose most of their strength already at 100 C, the relevant information on the epoxy datasheet is called "glass transition temperature" or Gt, I assume you used an epoxy with a higher Gt. Also, it's the carboxyl groups that have formed when epoxy reacts with the carbon dioxide in the air that you remove when sanding, not an oxide layer. Hint for surface prep, sand, tack-cloth and then acetone. Vaccuum chamber is the best way to remove bubbles from gf/epoxy.
Heat also greatly lowers the viscosity of most uncured epoxies. While you think you have removed all you can, if you vacuum bag in the cure oven you will see just how much more ends up in the breather fabric under elevated cure. There are some epoxies with higher TG. 3M, Aeropoxy and Coltronics all have some formulas with elevated TG temps.
If you want to save some money, I use butcher paper (not craft paper) when impregnating the fiberglass with epoxy. No need for rolls of mylar. The mylar can be used for other things related to laminating. The butcher paper has a nice film on one side you can tape down to your table and won't absorb any stray epoxy. And it comes in giant rolls.
Glad to see you back with such enthusiasm, Joe! Keep working on your composites optimization. You're carrying a lot of excess weight at the wrong end of the rocket with that fin can. Though the concept is great, execution could improve with vacuum bagging, and there's no reason not to use (radio-opaque) CF at that end. Fins could be thinner for the same stiffness and it would improve your CP/CG.
For your next composite layup, I highly recommend using a plastic bag or sheet for your pre-preg. Basically, just have a sheet of plastic twice as wide as you need (you want thick plastic sheeting that won't tear), pour resin on a spot in the first half of the sheet, lay your material on the spot, pour more resin on top, then cover with the other half of the sheet and squeegee through the plastic sheet. Aside from making the process much cleaner, this will allow the resin to spread better while allowing you to squeeze out any excess resin. It'll also help drive out any air bubbles and generate less waste in the process. It's a useful technique I learned in A&P school from a lifetime composites guy, and I've used it for prepping hot patches on aramid shrouds. Hope it helps!
11:00 guy i watched build a boat says to scrape the fireglass until you can see the texture. This is your layup coat. Then you go back over it with the outer layers. This helps the fibreglass to suction to the material and it wont float when you additional layers.
Nice looking part. Two tips you might find helpful: I used hysol in a number of places when I built my Kitfox. When doing fillets you might want to use some cotton flox to help retain the shape while it is curing. Some people also use micro balloons for this. Next is when you go to cut the fiberglass with scissors you can prevent fraying by putting down some masking tape on your cut line cutting through that. Keep up the good work!
From a process recommendation I'd recommend having a station for soaking the fiberglass, then wringing it out with the wedge. It looks like it was a little too dry. Amazing build!
The only thing I can think about when you are saying "tip to tip" is the silicon valley episode. Btw this channel is still way to awesome and interesting. Keep up the good work!
I really enjoy your videos. You’ve got a really great personality for what your doing. There’s not too many you tubers that could just “talk” and make it enjoyable to watch but your really good at it. Seem like a cool dude man and a fun guy to hang out with. Glad I found your channel (however long ago that was lol). Keep it up!
layup tip: putting epoxy into your plies before placing them makes it harder to control fiber orientation and, with the increased weight of the ply, the edges are more prone to fraying or stretching. I always place plies dry, and then dab resin into them with a brush
Your content is so good!! I'm sad that I'll have to wait to see more. I'm very interested in the recovery system. Hopefully you'll go into just as much if not more detail than you did here. May your skies be blue.
I think you should watch mike patey's scrappy build. He's a carbon fiber wizard, and carbon fiber is just ridiculously expensive fiber glass. He's a great teacher
glad that the rocket got recovered and you got footage on at launch to loss of connection (i call it connection blackout) i hope the camera worked until loss of connection because i am using the intro footage
No way, you used Hysol!?!? GE engine fan cases (where the blades almost touch the cowling) use that for filling (and sanding down) the clearance at the blade tips. Nice! Great video, can't wait for more
Bro... I have the exact same folding workbench.... I'm actually more impressed that it could handle the weight of a full-grown human man than I am that the fins could...
At university I have had some experience with composite construction and we call your layup method Wet Layup, Prepreg is used when we refer to carbon or fibre glass which comes with resin/harderner already in the weave, which will not set unless in a hgh temperature or pressure environment.
Also, when cutting/sanding the fibre glass back it would probably be a good investment to buy a dremel, the saw heads are very useful to cut off the excess without turnit it all into dust.
Okay wow, Ive been following your builds and rockets for a while. I'm so impressed on how you're pursuing this. Having personally experienced real burnout before, it's reassuring / gives me hope, seeing you able to re-commit to the same projects. If I'm remembering right, you said you had moved to LA (or just socal?). I would recommend you try finding some set shop sculptors to see if any of them would talk to you about their epoxy lay up techniques. There are a TON of super talented artists working with these materials professionally, but also in very intuitive ways, who would do a great job giving out wisdom about how it should look and feel to work with fiberglass and epoxy in a non-lab setting. Also, most would probably accept a couple beers in exchange for some insights. From my experience with these materials, my main suggestions would be to invest in a degassing chamber. Just a small vacuum pot that you place the cup of epoxy in between mixing and applying. You end up mixing a surprising amount of air into the epoxy as your stir in the hardener. Especially if you're warming it to speed up cure times, you can end up causing the microscopic gas bubbles to expand due to extra heat in the epoxy, but also setting the epoxy too fast for those bubbles to come to the surface and pop, trapping expanded gas bubbles in your cured material. Looks like you didn't run into that in this case, so thats great! GOOD LUCK!
27:31 As a fellow rocketeer I find the funniest part is that I already know, from experience, that you were more nervous about the fin can breaking than smacking your head on concrete.
Great build. One tip (which I still need to follow myself): wear gloves when handling and cutting fiberglass. Any grease won’t make the bonding with the resin better.
I did this kinda stuff at ERAU..... I did the same "cure" trick in my dorm room. Much to the raised eye brow of my room mate. But fire issue was never thought of.... luck of the Irish!!!
When making your wet layups, try doing it on a piece of clear builders film. I draw the final shape I need from the fabric on the lower builders film on the outside (bench side). I put on the fabric (cut oversize) and measured epoxy amount in the glass and roughly spread out. Then place a second piece of film and you can squeegee the epoxy very nicely to saturate the cloth. The excess of any squeezes out the sides. Then cut the whole sandwich with sharp scissors to the line you marked. Now you can peel off one film layer, rub it onto the part and remove the other piece of film. It will almost completely remove all the edge freying etc and you’ll get a much neater layup. For the edges, once the epoxy has setup to the gel stage, use a razor blade and just cut most of it off. Much less sanding that way. YMMV!
A suggestion on epoxy mixing (I think I heard Adam Savage say this), after mixing you should pour the epoxy into a new cup because the worst mixed portion is on the cup sides and the corner at the bottom.
Just a tip.. If you're looking to make a cut off the bolt, pull a single weft thread out of the cloth. This will give you a straight line to cut, without a lot of straggly ends.
Hey besties, Icarus Thiccarus back with another slammer of a video. Don't forget to peep that description to learn a little about why I'm wearing a respirator and gloves because getting hurt building rockets does n o t spark joy! Peace and love!
Yoooo
HIIII
Hi Joe! I love all the stuff you’re doing! Keep up the great work and stay safe! :)
Fan from India 🙏
Joey, I'm glad you've embraced the Icarus Thiccarus moniker we posited from your last video. I greatly appreciate your safety focus and I am very much looking forward to more from this series.
Did someone say high strength composites?
This episode of Real Engineering was brought to you by Curiosity Stream.
Legend
@@joellamm5266 roflmao
Hahahahah,exactly. Caught my eye
Oh my god. The legend is here
I think you should put it on a taller, skinnier, and less stable table before testing the fin load next one. Just to be safe.
FanTASTIC idea Sean!
@@Lizard_Workshop
Okay brother 😃...
I'll not use it !
I'll seek audio library
@@Lizard_Workshop He makes his own music, like the one in the intro.
Wow, you were NOT kidding. I read this first, and even though I was expecting it, it was still much worse than I thought.
@@lightleviathan1 Hello Sir...
Are his tracks licenced...?
Joe, these are some of the best composite fins I've seen on any HPR. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this resource. Rocketeers everywhere will benefit from this for years to come.
Thanks for teaching me how to do like 90% of this! :)
ua-cam.com/video/SskpYGyEDmU/v-deo.html
I agree, those fins are awesome. And also the video.
I never saw so much informative video about homemade composites!
Pro Tip: Use a roller cutter for the fiberglass. You will never look back! Roller cutters are available for a few dollars at fabric stores.
ooga booga next vid when 😄
@Maru Ivan Rico hello
Olfa are great, but note you need to cut on a self healing mat.
Like you said, available at any craft or fabric store.
@@jimurrata6785 I've found MDF works just as well, though eventually you do need to replace it.
@@AirCommandRockets you really think MDF works as well as a mat?
I would have thought A) you would end up with ridges at your cut lines and contamination. B) you would encounter 'skating' reinforcement when trying to cut.
But I haven't tried it, and now I will.
Thank you for the suggestion! 👍
Epiglue is your friend for fillets. The epoxy doesn't sag under gravity so you can do all 4 fins at the same time. Saves lots of time.
Hello there
How does it compare to Rocketpoxy? I've done all fillets simultaneously with rp and it has 7600psi tensile and 14,800psi compression strength.
So, this was pretty impressive. When I saw you were doing layup and bonding I thought "Oh, Boy, this will be interesting!" As an aircraft tech and former bonding department manager at a composite aircraft company, it sounds like you've done your homework. I only cringed when I saw you sanding without gloves, but it looked like you learned how nasty that is by the end. Pro Tip: If you find your hands super itchy after sanding, try sticking masking tape to the area and pulling it off. Also, the amount of Hysol you were using poses very little threat of significant exotherm with the size of heater you were using.
Don't mind me sneaking into your shop to steal some of your talent
Hey Joe,
I have 10 years of experience working with composites and have been to multiple courses on the subject.
Just want to give you some tips.
The next time you do composite layups, consider placing your fabric between two pieces of heavy mil plastic that doesn’t stretch. Add your resin and squeeze out the extra. This keeps you from working air bubbles in the resin and creating “Resin Foam”.
On the outer most layer of the plastic you can have your shapes pre drawn out and ready for cutting or use an aluminum or some other material as a stencil. Use a sharp roller cutter to cut through your two layers of plastic and saturated fabric.
Next all you have to do is peel the bottom layer and stick the fabric in place. The top layer of plastic also helps keep the shape of the fabric from being distorted. Final peel that last layer off and you will find your edge quality to be much better and not have frayed edges.
Another tip is you can take the “plastic sandwiches saturated fabric”and place them in the fridge so they don’t cure as fast on you, this also makes removing the plastic easier.
Keep up the good work.
Also look into using micro-balloons/ microspheres for making your filets. It’s much lighter and is the same chemical make up of your resin.
I'm thinking most optimized tip to tip layups use progressively stepped reinforcements.
You don't want a thick step at the edge, so (ideally) you start with full coverage and work your way smaller.
While this may seem counter intuitive, when it comes to sanding and faring you realize that you are sanding just the tips of some layers off while the smaller layers protect the full length fibers of the layers below.
You can do your layup inversely on your peel-ply (on top of wax paper or PET/Mylar)
This is essentially an uninhibited pre-preg.
Having the peel ply in place on the top of the stack when you flip it onto the fin can makes for easier positioning because you have 'handles' that project out beyond the edges and aren't saturated like the laminate.
Everyone is familiar with the 'sticky dance', trying to get the reinforcement in place while your gloves won't let go. 🙂
I highly agree with these tips! I've used similar techniques, and learned them from a fellow lifetime composites guy. Haven't messed with micro-balloons yet, but I've seen them in action on a few repairs.
In building a rocket filets for the fins are structural. Do you think micro-balloons are strong enough? I was told Cabosil would be a better option for strength.
@@cmcdonald9896 Late to the party on the replies but here's my take/what my community tends to use where it matters. Microballoons are good because they (significantly) reduce the mass, as well as make it thicker, rather than just including an agent to chemically thicken the resin. When you want to add tension strength to the fillet (because a chunk of epoxy has plenty of compressive strength) then chopped glass/carbon fibre in the resin will help - like microballoons, it'll lower the density of the epoxy mix/fillet, but like rebar in concrete, is helps take tension loads through the whole material rather than cracking the epoxy. Like referenced in the video too, you're taking the strengths of both parts into the finished product without each component significantly reducing the properties of the other part. Though getting a nice smooth poured fillet won't happen with fibres in it, that'll need an amount of love with powertools or sandpaper to get a good even radius between fin and can.
Hey Joe, great video. Just one thing I picked out, around 20:40 you said the process of applying resin to the cloth is called 'prepreg'. It's actually called "wetting out". Prepreg is a dry fibreglass or carbon fabric that has already been impregnated with resin and allowed to partially cure. The fabric is stored in a chiller to prevent it from fully curing and is then placed in an autoclave once laid up to fully cure the part. It's a completely different process to the "wet layup" which you are doing here.
epoxy tip: after mixing for about a minute, pour the epoxy in a new cup. This will help ensure there are no pockets of unmixed epoxy at the corners and surface of the cup. Keep up the good work, very inspiring!
every garage composite engineer has definitely built a curing oven that they caution that NO ONE SHOULD EVER DUPLICATE
I certainly feel a lot better about my cure oven. I use a regular, old-school light bulb, which is made for continuous operation, unlike a hair dryer. I can control the temperature inside by putting more or less insulation (blankets) on the box.
You predicted the future of SuperfastMatt's curing oven.
"I am not a chemist" he says. Well you could be. Along with mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, software engineer, production manager, flight controller, physicist. Should I keep going? Great job man, keep up the good work and you'll get to the Karman Line in no time!
The difference between Joe and Xyla's approach to deadline rocket design is amazing...and oddly comforting in the similarities.
Thank you so much for making this video! We're a student organization at the University of California, Riverside and are planning to dive into using composites on our aircraft in the near future, so the timing of this is absolutely perfect!!
Check out the raptor aircraft channel. m.ua-cam.com/users/RaptorAircraftvideos From CAD to RC model to flying prototype. Lots of mistakes shown to learn from.
"Dark Arrow" is another carbon fiber aircraft. More of a formal engineering approach. Has not flown yet.
Classic office environment! Desk, keyboard, computer, flower pot, can of acetone
Hey Joe, Man it's good to have you back.
A tip for trimming the cloth after its laid up. Before the epoxy is fully cured, but after it has started to stiffen up, it will be the consistency of chewing gum. You can cut it with a razor knife right up to the fin edge. This will save you tons of time sanding and will almost eliminate fiber glass dust.
A proven technique that we use on composite aircraft.
Also it will eliminate the danger of sanding into a fin or other parts of your project.
I’m building a fiberglass Long-EZ in my garage. A few things I’ve learned:
Consider pre-pregging all 7 layups on the table before applying to the rocket. Allows more attention and dexterity to weave orientation and bubbles while still on a flat surface. Also, if you sandwich all layups between 2 sheets of wax paper (much cheaper than mylar) it allows you to cut the whole layup with scissors to a more exact and neat final shape. You can also draw on the top sheet of wax paper with a marker and a ruler with no mess. Just peel away the wax paper before applying.
I use EZ proxy from aircraft spruce.com. Longer cure time but ideal for lightweight aircraft.
If you can pinpoint the direction of the higher stress loads you can use lightweight unidirectional (UNI) cloth and strategically align the weave. My entire wings are done this way.
Consider mixing your 2 part epoxy with microballlons. Lots of strength, easily sandable and most importantly, lightweight. I use it all the time for fillets.
With 14-16 ply fins I think you can opt for much thinner and lightweight fin cores. Rigid, thin foam would work. Easily carved and shaped. Less mass, less drag, higher altitude.
Keep in mind I’ve never built a Mach 1 rocket, so take all this with a grain of salt. Just some thoughts. Nice work.
Excellent video. You not being a pro really helped make it sound less complex. You also went through the steps in a more clear fashion than I have seen before. It made it a lot more approachable than someone's cell phone video going through the process real quick.
This is the best mood I've ever seen you in for a video, and it's a marked improvement since december. I hope it means you're doing well and living a sustainable and enjoyable rocket life :)
Man I love how passionate Joe is, and how super detailed he gets! Keep it up man!
Hey Joe, 55 minutes on a 60 minute epoxy is cutting it really close. One thing you're doing that can cut into your work time is mixing the epoxy in a tall cup. The epoxy tends to self heat as it cooks off in a dense container and this reduces the work time. If you mix your epoxy in a shallow flat container (those disposable baking pans work great) it will not be able to concentrate heat and it will be workable a lot longer.
My cure oven was 1 mil poly drop cloth stapled to the ceiling and the workbench, heated by a cube room heater with a chunk of fiberglass HVAC filter taped over it. (This was for varnishing furniture in cold weather, nowhere near as stringent.) Worked great, not only reducing cure time between coats, but kept the unfinished garage dust out. It's absolutely amazing how doing simple ad-hoc things like this can improve your work. Even a rough jig, for instance, is better than doing it by hand--especially if you have to reproduce the cuts or drill the same holes on a semi-production basis. More accurate, and much faster than measuring and working by hand.
Regular people: 0.2 degrees is nothing!
Rocketeers: OMG 0.2 DEGREE MISALIGNMENT I AM GOING TO DIE
I mean, it does have a giant impact, but in normal terms that is nothing
@@15gamershaven89 Well it is normal to the frame, but not vertical
ba dum tiss
No. "MY ROCKET IS GOING TO DIE!"
While spin stabilization will help mitigate any assemetry in thrust it does use energy that could be contributing to altitude.
It is drag at low altitude but the only thing that will keep you going straight as the fins do nothing for you when there is no atmosphere left for correcting force.
Just like artificial gravity, that spin is creates a huge load on payload (like battery and ejection charge connections)
0.2 degrees out equals 1280 degrees of rotation per second, or about 240rpm..
Stability comprised.
Success unlikely.
@@GenoLoma At what velocity?
I have no intention to ever fly rockets myself, most of the time I don't fully understand what you are talking about or how it works and why it is important but I still enjoy your content and find your sense of humor and overall presentation great and refreshing, I've been subscribed for a while and I can tell that besides getting better at "rocketing" you have become an excellent presenter and your confidence had noticeably improved! Keep up the good work, the incredible energy you have and most of all keep enjoying doing what you do because it seems like lately you are - more than before, more than ever.
Cheers!
As an architect and modeler I know that cutting exact pieces many times would be a pain in the ass, for a new rocket the greatest thing you can do it’s trying to make all those complex forms on a laser (or water if laser isn’t powerful enough) cutter, apparently could be more expensive but it saves you so much time and resources if you make it ring first time and have to cut again. I really enjoy your videos and building series, hope you can make some videos explaining the creation process of the AVA flight computer
composite guy and vet from the US Air force here and can confirm water break test is still used. Alot of composite parts on MH-60 and H-53 helicopters, not to mention the rotor blades "blades are a composite metal bonded honeycomb" at about 21 min in is what we call in the biz prepreg
Thanks for sharing your journey. After watching your video, I came up with a few ideas that might help improve your processes.
1. Have you tried cutting the fiberglass with pinking shears? They are used to cut fabric and reduce the amount of shedding.
2. Consider adding orientation lines to each layer of your layup. I'd use a long vertical line in the middle with a couple horizontal lines at 1/3 and 2/3 the length of the line. The lines will be visible through the fabric when wetted with resing. This should allow you to quickly orient each layer.
3. When casting resin, pulling a vacuum on the resin, after mixing, greatly reduces bubbles in the casting. You might consider pulling a vacuum on your resin mix before applying to the cloth. I use a foodsaver machine.
4. Line your box cure oven with "silver" coated insulation to retain the heat. Add some small vent holes around the bottom edge to allow any fumes to escape rather than blow back near the dryer heating element. Seal around hair dryer hole to improve heating efficiency.
These are just some ideas from a thankful subscriber. Keep up the good work.
Have an exam tomorrow on polymers and composite materials, what a coincidence. Great explanations as always!
Prepregs lol
There are specialized metal rollers, designed to help consolidate layers/remove air bubbles and excess resin! Also vacuum bagging is another really cool technique you could experiment with.
*Ah, shoulda watched the whole video, seeing that you mentioned vacuum bagging
"I need to calm down a little bit". No, no you don't. The roll-rate rant is my favorite part. That sounds like engineering to me -- this little minor thing, does it matter? Hell yes it matters. This other thing you think matters? It just doesn't. Learnings from crunching the numbers. Love it.
I'm surprised you've gone this long without dipping into composites... pun intended. I love learning, glad to see you still do too.
When I used to boat build we used metal compression rollers to roll out the glass. I also recommend you try pulling the peel ply back with the lights off. You'll often get a cool blue lightning flash effect.
Bubble buster (ribbed) rollers really help consolidate the laminate and force excess resin to the surface.
The last thing you want in a layup is having your fabric floating.
Joe says 1:1 weight ratio for fiberglass cloth to epoxy, but the reality is that optimal is 80:20 or higher.
But you can't get there without a vacuum bag (or autoclave)
The matrix isn't offering anything for strength. It is only there to hold the fiber in place.
This Channel gave me the Inspiration to build rockets. Great Video
You are really flexible to get up on that table. Good Job.
I am really happy to see you using gloves and a respirator when using that fiberglass. YES! :-)
Hey, we are all just dudes who figured something out. Some of us (you) did something cool enough to write home about.
After long rest this guy finally upload masterpiece
It's incredible how your glass is always clean.
Great video, great series, really enjoyed it and had to rewind several times to make sure I didn't miss anything when I got distracted!
Joe,you are going to do great things and leave a very big footprint in this life.
Why is this channel so underrated 😣
Your probably the most advanced person dedicated to building model rockets. That is so cool
Not only does a higher temperature decrease the cure time for epoxy, for most epoxies it also increases final strength and temperature resistance.
Most epoxies lose most of their strength already at 100 C, the relevant information on the epoxy datasheet is called "glass transition temperature" or Gt, I assume you used an epoxy with a higher Gt.
Also, it's the carboxyl groups that have formed when epoxy reacts with the carbon dioxide in the air that you remove when sanding, not an oxide layer.
Hint for surface prep, sand, tack-cloth and then acetone.
Vaccuum chamber is the best way to remove bubbles from gf/epoxy.
Heat also greatly lowers the viscosity of most uncured epoxies.
While you think you have removed all you can, if you vacuum bag in the cure oven you will see just how much more ends up in the breather fabric under elevated cure.
There are some epoxies with higher TG. 3M, Aeropoxy and Coltronics all have some formulas with elevated TG temps.
If you want to save some money, I use butcher paper (not craft paper) when impregnating the fiberglass with epoxy. No need for rolls of mylar. The mylar can be used for other things related to laminating. The butcher paper has a nice film on one side you can tape down to your table and won't absorb any stray epoxy. And it comes in giant rolls.
Glad to see you back with such enthusiasm, Joe!
Keep working on your composites optimization.
You're carrying a lot of excess weight at the wrong end of the rocket with that fin can.
Though the concept is great, execution could improve with vacuum bagging, and there's no reason not to use (radio-opaque) CF at that end.
Fins could be thinner for the same stiffness and it would improve your CP/CG.
Mike Patey has a lot of knowledge on composites so he's a good resource for anyone looking at composites!
Your a Good Role Model for the Kids and the young and up and coming Engineers!! Keep Up the Good Work!! ( Soul)
Man I love that Lumineer intro 😩
For your next composite layup, I highly recommend using a plastic bag or sheet for your pre-preg. Basically, just have a sheet of plastic twice as wide as you need (you want thick plastic sheeting that won't tear), pour resin on a spot in the first half of the sheet, lay your material on the spot, pour more resin on top, then cover with the other half of the sheet and squeegee through the plastic sheet. Aside from making the process much cleaner, this will allow the resin to spread better while allowing you to squeeze out any excess resin. It'll also help drive out any air bubbles and generate less waste in the process. It's a useful technique I learned in A&P school from a lifetime composites guy, and I've used it for prepping hot patches on aramid shrouds.
Hope it helps!
11:00 guy i watched build a boat says to scrape the fireglass until you can see the texture. This is your layup coat. Then you go back over it with the outer layers. This helps the fibreglass to suction to the material and it wont float when you additional layers.
Nice looking part. Two tips you might find helpful:
I used hysol in a number of places when I built my Kitfox. When doing fillets you might want to use some cotton flox to help retain the shape while it is curing. Some people also use micro balloons for this.
Next is when you go to cut the fiberglass with scissors you can prevent fraying by putting down some masking tape on your cut line cutting through that.
Keep up the good work!
this share is AMAZING ! Having done work with these materials, I can echo all of his warnings. Definitely practice, you'll be glad you did :)
From a process recommendation I'd recommend having a station for soaking the fiberglass, then wringing it out with the wedge. It looks like it was a little too dry.
Amazing build!
This episode was great. You're humor was spot on.
Truly enjoy following along with your journey, thank you for the quality content every time.
The only thing I can think about when you are saying "tip to tip" is the silicon valley episode.
Btw this channel is still way to awesome and interesting. Keep up the good work!
I can never get over how cool all of this is!
Good job of explaining the process of a wet layup including the do's and don'ts.
I’m seeing your channel since you had 1000 subscribers and whoa coming back after a while, you’re shinning brightly 🤩 keep making cool stuff.
The boy is back!!! Love your content, continue the hard work!
Love it Joe. Retired welder/engineer at nuke plants love your whole presentation. Hope to volunteer at your launch site in the future.
Anybody who works with fiberglass bare handed and with short sleeves is deserving of a like in my book.
You fucking madlad.
crazy all this work into strengthening the fins
didn't imagine they have this much load
I really enjoy your videos. You’ve got a really great personality for what your doing. There’s not too many you tubers that could just “talk” and make it enjoyable to watch but your really good at it. Seem like a cool dude man and a fun guy to hang out with. Glad I found your channel (however long ago that was lol). Keep it up!
That was way more fascinating than I was expecting. Can’t wait for the next instalment Joe.
layup tip: putting epoxy into your plies before placing them makes it harder to control fiber orientation and, with the increased weight of the ply, the edges are more prone to fraying or stretching. I always place plies dry, and then dab resin into them with a brush
Your content is so good!! I'm sad that I'll have to wait to see more. I'm very interested in the recovery system. Hopefully you'll go into just as much if not more detail than you did here. May your skies be blue.
I think you should watch mike patey's scrappy build. He's a carbon fiber wizard, and carbon fiber is just ridiculously expensive fiber glass. He's a great teacher
I love the passive agressive jokes inbetween! Love the format of your videos!
Excellent video! You are a great and natural presenter. You would make a great teacher. Good job!
glad that the rocket got recovered and you got footage on at launch to loss of connection (i call it connection blackout) i hope the camera worked until loss of connection because i am using the intro footage
I'm glad your doing better sir. I loved this video for more reasons than I care to list.
Goddammit Joe, I was just about to go to sleep.
100
Did you get your nice glass of carbonated milk?
You are a dude indeed, one of the coolest dudes i have ever heard of
No way, you used Hysol!?!? GE engine fan cases (where the blades almost touch the cowling) use that for filling (and sanding down) the clearance at the blade tips. Nice! Great video, can't wait for more
SO impressed by this! Great job dude. Can’t wait to watch the rest of this series
Really good video. The production quality is insane. Keep up the great work!
You were all fired up in this epilogue.. We need more if this Joe. Even if it's with some bubbly drinks.😉
Bro... I have the exact same folding workbench.... I'm actually more impressed that it could handle the weight of a full-grown human man than I am that the fins could...
Such a nice looking rocket, even after the crash...
At university I have had some experience with composite construction and we call your layup method Wet Layup, Prepreg is used when we refer to carbon or fibre glass which comes with resin/harderner already in the weave, which will not set unless in a hgh temperature or pressure environment.
Also, when cutting/sanding the fibre glass back it would probably be a good investment to buy a dremel, the saw heads are very useful to cut off the excess without turnit it all into dust.
Okay wow, Ive been following your builds and rockets for a while. I'm so impressed on how you're pursuing this. Having personally experienced real burnout before, it's reassuring / gives me hope, seeing you able to re-commit to the same projects.
If I'm remembering right, you said you had moved to LA (or just socal?). I would recommend you try finding some set shop sculptors to see if any of them would talk to you about their epoxy lay up techniques. There are a TON of super talented artists working with these materials professionally, but also in very intuitive ways, who would do a great job giving out wisdom about how it should look and feel to work with fiberglass and epoxy in a non-lab setting. Also, most would probably accept a couple beers in exchange for some insights.
From my experience with these materials, my main suggestions would be to invest in a degassing chamber. Just a small vacuum pot that you place the cup of epoxy in between mixing and applying. You end up mixing a surprising amount of air into the epoxy as your stir in the hardener. Especially if you're warming it to speed up cure times, you can end up causing the microscopic gas bubbles to expand due to extra heat in the epoxy, but also setting the epoxy too fast for those bubbles to come to the surface and pop, trapping expanded gas bubbles in your cured material. Looks like you didn't run into that in this case, so thats great! GOOD LUCK!
Yeyy , you are comeback to youtube :D , i'm from indonesian always watching your video :D
7:18 Adam savage uses that technique, and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.
"Don't do this"
Well now I want to do it.
"Don't do this"
*Oh no! Anyway-*
27:31 As a fellow rocketeer I find the funniest part is that I already know, from experience, that you were more nervous about the fin can breaking than smacking your head on concrete.
Where have you been hiding? Yes this was a great find! I’m planning on a water rocket and this helps for fins soo much.
Number of views show that this was a long awaited video
Great build.
One tip (which I still need to follow myself): wear gloves when handling and cutting fiberglass. Any grease won’t make the bonding with the resin better.
And that goes double for carbon fiber.
Please make Playlist of all this rocket build /explain...viedos 🙏🙏🙏
Loving the series! Congrats to all you guys!
The most impressive part is how that hair dryer didn't overheat/burn up after being on for 2 hours straight jk your channel is awesome Joe keep it up
I did this kinda stuff at ERAU..... I did the same "cure" trick in my dorm room. Much to the raised eye brow of my room mate. But fire issue was never thought of.... luck of the Irish!!!
man, your work is absolutely awesome! impecable!
When making your wet layups, try doing it on a piece of clear builders film. I draw the final shape I need from the fabric on the lower builders film on the outside (bench side). I put on the fabric (cut oversize) and measured epoxy amount in the glass and roughly spread out. Then place a second piece of film and you can squeegee the epoxy very nicely to saturate the cloth. The excess of any squeezes out the sides. Then cut the whole sandwich with sharp scissors to the line you marked. Now you can peel off one film layer, rub it onto the part and remove the other piece of film. It will almost completely remove all the edge freying etc and you’ll get a much neater layup.
For the edges, once the epoxy has setup to the gel stage, use a razor blade and just cut most of it off. Much less sanding that way.
YMMV!
Nice too see your back bud. Lookin good tooo 👍👍👍👍👍👍, need you to get me motivated again.
A suggestion on epoxy mixing (I think I heard Adam Savage say this), after mixing you should pour the epoxy into a new cup because the worst mixed portion is on the cup sides and the corner at the bottom.
This is really your best video
thank you so much for quality rocket vids!
Just a tip..
If you're looking to make a cut off the bolt, pull a single weft thread out of the cloth.
This will give you a straight line to cut, without a lot of straggly ends.