I watched Tim's original video on this subject from years ago and applied it (and highly recommend for all) to a couple of builds. This is a great technique and I used the previous version. I can say this: It makes finishing the rocket much easier (than filling and sanding the balsa). Though with this technique he's using super glue across the whole surface from above the paper, as opposed to wood glue on the balsa to adhere the paper (then you seal the edges with super glue). That version can get a little weird because of the water in the glue causing the balsa to warp - you just have to do both sides quickly and then press the fin between two sheets of wax paper on a hard flat surface with a book or something on top. Also, I had a paper laminated fin crack on landing, but the paper held. I simply had to realign it, and ran a bead of thin CA along the crack. That soaked through the paper, hardened, and after a few minutes the rocket was ready to fly again. Great stuff, Tim! Thanks for updating the video and sharing! :)
Recently I've started using thin card stock, instead of paper. Gives a much slicker finish. And the added thickness will cover any flaws, or seams. I also spray a whole sheet, and once I lay the fin down, I cut around the trailing edges. Then I roll the fin over on the rounded leading edge. Then trim away the excess. Makes for an extra strong leading edge. Then the ca glue treatment as you demonstrated. Those fumes can be brutal sometimes.
Back in the early seventies I scratch built an 18mm-powered Nike Hercules and quailed at sanding all that fin surface. I found and used adhesive-backed paper on the fins that made them ridiculously strong-except where they attached to the body tubes. I still have that same model and the paper shows no signs of peeling. I haven't a clue who manufactured it and it added more weight which happily resulted in more realistic lift-offs even with four motors.
This is interesting, Tim. When I was a kid building in the 70's and 80's, we used sanding sealer. This technique is actually strengthening the balsa, too. Much better.
I'm toying with the idea of either using sanding sealer, or tissue paper and dope of some kind to strengthen really thin balsa fins for small scale altitude record attempts.
@@N3onDr1v3 I also thought of the tissue paper / dope option. I think it would be lighter than paper. When I was a kid, rocket motors were only as big as 'D', so weight was always a concern. Today, not so much. But since I also built stick and tissue model airplanes, I'm still concerned about weight.
My eyes were watering watching you put that superglue on the fin! This is much easier than using Elmer's or wood glue to adhere the paper, I will give it a go! Thanks!
I’ve never papered a fin. Thanks to this new technique, I may have to try it soon. Looks like it’d be great on multi piece fins to add strength to the joint(s) as well.
Great video. I have tried laminating plastic sheets and they worked well for a 1/4 inch thick balsa fin on a 29mm rocket engine rocket. Paint adhered well. But the paint was brushed, not sprayed as 007 would say. On messy steps, I use waxed paper and tape it to the work table. Nothing will stick to it that I know.
It is not diluted with water. It is already water-thin. CA comes in different viscosity, and we want the thinnest one. You can find it on our website at: www.apogeerockets.com/Building-Supplies/Adhesives/Insta-Cure-Super-Thin-CA-Glue-1-oz-BLUE
Yeah I've been thinking about CAing papered fins, but you beat me at it. These must be dangerously strong. I doubt if I keep that applying tip unclogged here in the seaclimate.
I like the ease and speed of this. However since the CA is soaking into the balsa, could this impact the adhesion of wood glue when attaching the fin to the body tube?
If it is soaking into the balsa, that is even better for adhesion. But usually, it only soaks in maybe 0.1mm, which is hardly anything at all. I wish it soaked in much deeper, but for that, you have to have soaking into edge grain, not surface grain. This works, just give it a try and don't be afraid to experiment.
There is NO water in it. I was describing the viscosity - how thin it is. It is water thin - not syrup-thin. DON'T add water. You can't thin it out with anything. You have to buy it that way. You can get it from our website.
I think the biggest benefit to papering is increasing the balsa strength perpendicular to the grain direction. This gives closer to equal strength no matter which direction you bend the fins and keeps tips and irregular shapes from splitting. I always cut my paper skins quite a bit larger than the fin so it isn't so important to get it perfectly centered. It is easy to sand the excess off of the edges when you add the airfoils. I used to use nice sharp airfoils but I found that they weren't durable, they would easily get dinged during launching, transportation and storage. Now I take a compromise and I round the edges. Your new method requires a lot of materials but seems to be very quick and works better with complicated airfoil shapes.
You CAN'T dilute it. You have to buy it that way. You can find the water-thin super glue on our website. I posted the link in another response, but UA-cam deleted the link.
@@apogeerockets So I tried this, and being a die hard sanding sealer guy I have to say, Im impressed with the results! Getting those results however was WAY harder than you make it look. I glued myself and the fin to EVERYTHING. The plastic bag, the table, the paper towel... Also, the paper im using didn't absorb the glue like yours did, it didn't turn transparent so quickly and I had to go around the edge to actually get it to go under the paper. I guess I need to do some tweaking. But thanks for the instructional videos!! 🙂
I know using Super Glue is a lot faster than using Wood Glue.... but is it stronger? In my experience the Super Glue makes the balsa brittle, and Wood Glue doesn't. Which is important when looking at fin flutter. Any thoughts on that TVM?
Here's another trick to repair rockets post flight , use super glue with baking soda to fill dings in fins then just sand and touch up paint and your good to go.
I watched Tim's original video on this subject from years ago and applied it (and highly recommend for all) to a couple of builds. This is a great technique and I used the previous version.
I can say this: It makes finishing the rocket much easier (than filling and sanding the balsa). Though with this technique he's using super glue across the whole surface from above the paper, as opposed to wood glue on the balsa to adhere the paper (then you seal the edges with super glue). That version can get a little weird because of the water in the glue causing the balsa to warp - you just have to do both sides quickly and then press the fin between two sheets of wax paper on a hard flat surface with a book or something on top.
Also, I had a paper laminated fin crack on landing, but the paper held. I simply had to realign it, and ran a bead of thin CA along the crack. That soaked through the paper, hardened, and after a few minutes the rocket was ready to fly again.
Great stuff, Tim! Thanks for updating the video and sharing! :)
Recently I've started using thin card stock, instead of paper. Gives a much slicker finish. And the added thickness will cover any flaws, or seams.
I also spray a whole sheet, and once I lay the fin down, I cut around the trailing edges. Then I roll the fin over on the rounded leading edge. Then trim away the excess. Makes for an extra strong leading edge. Then the ca glue treatment as you demonstrated.
Those fumes can be brutal sometimes.
Back in the early seventies I scratch built an 18mm-powered Nike Hercules and quailed at sanding all that fin surface. I found and used adhesive-backed paper on the fins that made them ridiculously strong-except where they attached to the body tubes. I still have that same model and the paper shows no signs of peeling. I haven't a clue who manufactured it and it added more weight which happily resulted in more realistic lift-offs even with four motors.
Thanks for sharing new ideas Tim, very very helpful.
This is interesting, Tim. When I was a kid building in the 70's and 80's, we used sanding sealer. This technique is actually strengthening the balsa, too. Much better.
I also used to use sanding sealer..I wonder if the sealer would add more weight than the paper/superglue?
I'm toying with the idea of either using sanding sealer, or tissue paper and dope of some kind to strengthen really thin balsa fins for small scale altitude record attempts.
@@N3onDr1v3 I also thought of the tissue paper / dope option. I think it would be lighter than paper. When I was a kid, rocket motors were only as big as 'D', so weight was always a concern. Today, not so much. But since I also built stick and tissue model airplanes, I'm still concerned about weight.
@@barthennin6088 I wonder how Elmer's glue would be? It would definitely add strength and you could sand it.
I still use sanding sealer. Takes extra time, but worth it.
My eyes were watering watching you put that superglue on the fin! This is much easier than using Elmer's or wood glue to adhere the paper, I will give it a go! Thanks!
Thanx for the video Tim. I didn't know it was gonna be that easy.
I’ve never papered a fin. Thanks to this new technique, I may have to try it soon. Looks like it’d be great on multi piece fins to add strength to the joint(s) as well.
Great video. I have tried laminating plastic sheets and they worked well for a 1/4 inch thick balsa
fin on a 29mm rocket engine rocket. Paint adhered well. But the paint was brushed, not sprayed as 007 would say. On messy steps, I use waxed paper and tape it to the work table. Nothing will stick to it that I know.
You've mentioned water diluted CA before what proportion and type of CA?? Thanks for all the helpful hints and instruction.
It is not diluted with water. It is already water-thin. CA comes in different viscosity, and we want the thinnest one. You can find it on our website at: www.apogeerockets.com/Building-Supplies/Adhesives/Insta-Cure-Super-Thin-CA-Glue-1-oz-BLUE
Thank you sir for clarifying
Im going to practice a few time on some scraps before doing this on my Star Orbiter.
Yeah I've been thinking about CAing papered fins, but you beat me at it. These must be dangerously strong. I doubt if I keep that applying tip unclogged here in the seaclimate.
I like the ease and speed of this. However since the CA is soaking into the balsa, could this impact the adhesion of wood glue when attaching the fin to the body tube?
If it is soaking into the balsa, that is even better for adhesion. But usually, it only soaks in maybe 0.1mm, which is hardly anything at all. I wish it soaked in much deeper, but for that, you have to have soaking into edge grain, not surface grain. This works, just give it a try and don't be afraid to experiment.
What grit sandpaper should we hit the fins with after papering them? 320?
As long as you aren't removing the paper, that may be OK. It is the fibers you want to protect.
A Cricut or similar tool would be great for cutting these, just load in a SVG of the fin outline.
Cool. You can export out a .svg from RockSim of the fin patterns, so that would totally save you some time.
What's the water diluted superglue ratio?
There is NO water in it. I was describing the viscosity - how thin it is. It is water thin - not syrup-thin. DON'T add water. You can't thin it out with anything. You have to buy it that way. You can get it from our website.
Don’t go sniffing too much glue on us Tim, we need you to give us rocket tips
Hi Tim. Does this process work for plywood fins as well?
You won't get any strength advantage, but it should work.
I think the biggest benefit to papering is increasing the balsa strength perpendicular to the grain direction. This gives closer to equal strength no matter which direction you bend the fins and keeps tips and irregular shapes from splitting.
I always cut my paper skins quite a bit larger than the fin so it isn't so important to get it perfectly centered. It is easy to sand the excess off of the edges when you add the airfoils.
I used to use nice sharp airfoils but I found that they weren't durable, they would easily get dinged during launching, transportation and storage. Now I take a compromise and I round the edges.
Your new method requires a lot of materials but seems to be very quick and works better with complicated airfoil shapes.
Good point. That ability to have uniform strength in any direction is a plus.
How much do you dilute the glue?
You CAN'T dilute it. You have to buy it that way. You can find the water-thin super glue on our website. I posted the link in another response, but UA-cam deleted the link.
@@apogeerockets So I tried this, and being a die hard sanding sealer guy I have to say, Im impressed with the results! Getting those results however was WAY harder than you make it look.
I glued myself and the fin to EVERYTHING. The plastic bag, the table, the paper towel...
Also, the paper im using didn't absorb the glue like yours did, it didn't turn transparent so quickly and I had to go around the edge to actually get it to go under the paper. I guess I need to do some tweaking. But thanks for the instructional videos!! 🙂
@@cliffp8448 I guess you're using good paper. We use the cheap stuff that takes in the CA glue easily. I should have thought of that.
I know using Super Glue is a lot faster than using Wood Glue.... but is it stronger? In my experience the Super Glue makes the balsa brittle, and Wood Glue doesn't. Which is important when looking at fin flutter. Any thoughts on that TVM?
It is easy to test. Go for it!
When you are not talking I can hear the vid is made in the US :)
Here's another trick to repair rockets post flight , use super glue with baking soda to fill dings in fins then just sand and touch up paint and your good to go.
Good idea!