DOES GYRO ACTUALLY GO FURTHER?
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
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The speed of the boss is off though. It's definitely not a 13 speed. Rim is huge (2.5cm). Same as the 14.5 speeds you are throwing which went further. Octane rim is smaller and matched the Boss. It's just a weird comparison to make when the speed is an arbitrary number made up by manufacturers. Regardless, nice rips.
two things i got from this. the amount of audible snap that is heard is insane. second, i cannot fathom being at the place where 505 is nothing impressive. i would love to be, but ill never get there lol. nice job on this one. I am enjoying the MVP mythbusters and seeing what you find out.
Yeah his snap is just unreal! I noticed it in the Glitch round as well and god I wish I had that in my bag 😂
I’ve said this about his throwing a couple times. Drew probably has the LOUDEST snap of a disc release I’ve ever heard. It’s unreal.
I think snap doesn't necessarily correlate with distance
@@dannybeck9842 It correlates with good technique.
@@dannybeck9842 and with spin.
Speed doesn't have to do with distance. It has to do with how fast you have to throw the disc so that it flies to the characteristic on the disc. If you throw a 7 speed the same speed as a 14 speed it is going to flip right over and not fly as it should. The reason they don't go as far is because you don't throw them as fast.
In order to see if the 14.5 speed goes further you should throw it faster than the 13 speed.
Every mph at Drew's velocity is about 8'. If he throws any disc faster than a similar (on same flight) it will go farther.
I think it would be more interesting to see if you throw a slower speed driver from MVP (maybe a 9 or 10 speed). Theoretically if the gyro helps, a slower speed disc should get out there with the Boss. Perhaps a Part II? Loving the channel btw. This is the honest and wholesome content I look for on the tube. Good Luck this year! Hope to see you play in NC!
@@Salvarath The RPM isn't the sole determining factor for gyroscopic stability on a spinning disc.
I also don't think there is any empirical evidence - only hypothetical evidence - that shows the spin rate would be less on a 'Gyro' disc, so that is a bold axiom to claim, unless you can back it up with a source.
Regardless the higher moment of inertia is more beneficial than less rpm would be a hinderance. Look at 'Blizzard' plastic, or the 'Groove'. Discs that have the center of mass more towards the center are less consistent and less gyroscopically stable, which means a generally more US flight.
As for your description of hyzer and the weight pulling the edge of the disc, that is simply incorrect physics of flying discs. Gravity effects all edges equally, it is the Center Of Pressure that effects turn/fade.
Low speed fairway vs a high speed driver? I honestly don't see how that is even a good comparison in technology?
All the gyro is going be able to do, in theory, is increase the gyroscopic stability, or moment of inertia of the disc. The reason putters fly straighter is because their mass is further out from their center, so the idea behind Gyro is to bring this effect to drivers and intensify it on their midranges and putters. Drivers go further than putters because of their aerodynamic profile, this is true, but also because they can fly faster without burning over. Since the disc is spinning, the lift it experiences will gyroscopically precess, causing lifting forces felt most intensely on the nose and tail of the disc to be effectively applied at the sides of the disc, resulting in turn and fade depending on the airspeed of the disc throughout its flight. Most disc golf discs have a similar wing area, but the area of the rim under the nose varies based mostly upon speed/rim width. When you throw a putter hard, the increased gyro effect it has will cause it to hold over once the turning force is overtaken, whereas a driver is better able to fade out after the initial high-speed lift due to its increased nose drag and lowered moment of inertia. Theoretically, if Gyro does increase the moment of inertia of a disc, it would be able to handle more power while turning less and would fade less at the end of each flight. I'm not sure how much this can be said to be true for any overmolded discs, to be honest, because the difference in achievable flights between the gyro lineup and single molded discs is seriously negligible IME.
@@barisaxo It's very basic physics that the more weight is concentrated on the edges of the spinning object the slower it spins.
If you've ever been to one of those playground carousels you'd notice the phenomenom.
@@MaxLBogue I appreciate your breakdown but there are some assumptions and contradictions here that I’m curious if you would clarify or not.
1. (Assumption) The reason putters fly straighter is that their mass is further from the center. I disagree and would be willing to cut up discs to prove this. I conjecture that their flight is entirely due to their wing profile and has little to do with distribution of mass. It weights the same as other discs, has similar diameters, and volumes of flight plate and wing, therefore there is no greater distribution of mass from the center compared to other discs.
2. (Definition) What is straighter? Putters turn more but have less fade. In this sense, putters don’t have a straighter flight, but an inverse of what is “normal”. They turn but don’t fade where as a driver does not turn but fades.
My argument related to the above is that the moment of inertia has much less to do with the resultant precessions you’ve described and by consequence the flight path. Instead by definition the precession is the result of angular momentum following the torque which is being generated by the wing profile’s aerodynamics. Therefore a putter flies the way that it does because it’s wing does not modify the torque as much as the wing of a driver does. Put another way, a driver has more lift than a putter. You’ve basically said this yourself but used this argument as credit for moment of inertia being the reason for different flights whereas I argue that the moment of inertia isn’t all that much different between the disc types. And yes you are correct that a greater inertia would make it more resistant to changes in torque but simply moving the weight should not lead to a greater spin but instead would actually reduce effectiveness in applying torque for the inertia.
That slo mo snap sound is soooo crispy
Thank you!! Was a super fun video to make.
Aren't "speeds" subjective from brand to brand though? I as a newer player I felt like mvp just enjoyed having a more broad scale to categorize their discs. Just a newb opinion though
I think it's a common misconception that gyro makes the disc fly further. The gyro technology gives the discs a greater rotational mass moment of inertia, which enables them to hold their angle better and for longer. If the disc is flying flat, then yes it will go further with a greater rotational mass moment of inertia because it will resist fading for longer and then won't fade as hard. Like Drew said, the gyro technology is less impactful in high speed drivers, because high speed drivers already have a greater amount of mass concentrated in the rim of the disc to increase their mass moments.
0:34 They are claiming it as 14.5 because of the rim width being 24.5mm. {Rim width - 10 = speed} is the general convention with drivers,+ or - a point. All bets are off when it comes to midranges and slower.
That being said innova claims the boss is 25mm so it could be called a 15 speed. The boss also has an extra mm in overall diameter vs the teleport, they are pretty close discs in terms of class, do with that info what you will.
You’re one of my favorite golfers for a reason, you tell things how they are good bad or indifferent. Finish line is the only brand I throw outside of discraft and mvp since I’m from michigan, but also gotta support you!
Thank you.
@@DrewGibson I got 3 launch-edition Eras. The 163gm one is a hyzer-flip delight. I can bomb it within 10-30 feet of my distance drivers. I would throw it more often, but y'all sent me RED ones even after I responded to the e-mail that I wanted ANYTHING BUT RED. I will walk past that sumbitch on a grassy field and never see it. Colorblindness is a pain in the ass in disc golf.
You realize it's all based on rim width right? Also, speed doesn't directly correlate to how far it will go, it's more about how fast you have to throw it for the disc to fly the way it was designed. It would be cool to see a test like this with more than one throw - to get averages, learn the discs, etc
Yeah, it comes down to the numbers not being standardized...Speed generally boils down to rim width, which is the same on the Boss and the "Faster" MVP family discs, at 2.5cm. I get the other numbers being subjective, or changing from run to run, but I wish we could standardize the speed number based on rim width. But to your point you made at the end, not sure if that would work across the board with Putters, Approach discs, vs. mids. When I'm looking for a driver though, that rim thickness matters to me more than the seemingly arbitrary speed number.
Love the content - keep it up, Drew!
MVP bases their speed numbers on the rim width. Octane (and all the 13 speed) is 23mm rim, all the 14.5 speeds are 24.5mm rim.
The numbers on the PDGA approval page are known to not be very precise.
The content we’ve been waiting for. Well done Drew!
Thanks for watching. I appreciate it.
505 🤯 “nothing impressive at all” 😅 I’m pretty impressed drew.
[Throws discs once] “yeah I don’t notice enough of a difference”.
If you hit a 7 iron and a 5 iron once each you will notice a difference.
@@DrewGibson TK has a point though. For a true scientific test, you would need to have a larger data set. 10 throws with each disc. Maybe 10 throws per angle and take an average.
The problem with doing that is that we tend to fatigue and that would also skew the data. The only way to realistically be able to measure if a heavier outer rim creates more of a gyroscopic effect and thereby increasing distance, would be to have a machine do it in a controlled environment.
@@DrewGibson I think since the rim size is about the same for those discs, that's probably the reason. MVP tries to be more scientific with the speed, since they base it on the rim thickness (wing length) but the difference between the Octane and the other discs (including the Boss) is a little more than a millimeter. They're all almost identically sharp in terms of the edge of the rim, too. The big difference is the manufacturer's speed rating. Regardless, great video, and thank you for making it, Drew!
Great video, Drew. The main issue I have with flight numbers is the large variance between companies. MVP discs classify their speed numbers purely based on rim width. I'm not sure how others are classified. For instance, a Boss's rim width is 25mm, and MVP's 14.5 speeds are 24.5mm, 13 speeds are 23mm.
So, maybe the best way to dig into this question is to compare similar speed drivers from MVP/Axiom with Streamline counterparts. A Trace vs. Photon/Zenith/Defy.
Yeah, 25mm is the max rim width so it's very logical that discs at that size should be around the maximum speed of 15 territory, give or take depending on the height of the disc, which is the other major factor in determining speed. I had no idea that Boss had max width rim. Sure it's a tall disc but I still don't think that's in line with the general numbering convention. But then again, there is no standard so you can't compare between manufacturers directly. Also Boss is one of the first high speed drivers, so it's very understandable that the convention has evolved since then.
Rim width dictates the speed for others as well, but they are not all aligned. Someone already explained here the story of Boss. Until that fastest disc was 12 speed. Boss came and they gave it the next speed which was 13. It would have been a bit odd to just from 12 to 14 in speed category.
It just should be updated to 14, 14,5 or directly to 15. MVP's Tantrum has rim width 25 mm in PDGA page so the same as Boss. Should all 25 mm rims be 15 and 24,5 mm 14,5. I think it would be good.
So flight number would tell at least actual rim width. PDGA should tell all manufacturers to update speed based on rim width.
If the boss mold came out today I believe it would be a 15 speed based on the rim width. But at the time when innova made the boss, the highest speed was a 12, so they decided to call it a 13 speed.
💯
Makes sense. 1st time I threw a pro boss I felt bad about myself lmao. Turned out to be my favorite forehand disk tho.
Yeah, MVP labels all their speeds according to rim width.
14.5speeds= 24.5mm rims.
13 speeds= 23mm
11 speeds= 21mm
Boss has a 25mm rim so it’d be a 15speed with mvp flight numbers.
Save for MVPs 9 speeds actually being 18.5 mm, yes that correlation is correct for drivers. All bets are off for midranges and below
@@barisaxo true, I should’ve included that.
Smart business move hopping on Simon's hype train. Always appreciative of new disc golf content.
Drew Gibson: "These MVP 14.5 speeds do not have any appreciable difference to a conventional 13 speed"
750 rated 300 foot max distance player: "I've found my new distance cheat."
Drew, you’ve been pumping the videos out lately. I just want you to know how thankful we are to see the content. Keep killing it! We love the unbiased content!
I feel like GYRO delays the low speed fade. They just keep holding and holding when you think they will fade out.
I think GYRO is…… Well watch the video.
@@DrewGibson I just think flight shape is different than non Gyro. Think Aerobie…weight on the perimeter. Aerobie resists low speed fade.
My understanding is gyro should help the disc maintain rotations at higher speeds but that also means they fade quicker when they can't maintain those rotations... So at least my experience is turn and burn is much harder with gyro, they keep straight for longer but even discs with low fade have a pretty strong fade at very low speeds and or rotations.
The Boss is a 15 speed. If you want to scientifically compare the speed of the discs, you have to use rim width. Even then, rim width varies a great deal between discs of the same mold. Lift is a whole different thing entirely(relates to sharper rim tip, dome, and height ratios).
15 speed because its rim is 2.5cm. marketing called it 13 because that was the next number in the innova lineup to be created.
The last distance comp (2022 United States Distance Championship) was the perfect example of how much variance players get from throw to throw. Speed, angles, wind, height... etc, make a pretty huge difference. That said, I've thrown overmold discs along side regular mold discs for years and I notice absolutely no noticeable difference in distance.
I certainly appreciate the idea, but I agree that as implemented it makes little difference. I wonder if their Gyro-X will change that at all
But one thing that was obvious is that the higher the launch velocity the farther the discs went.
@@davelopez9161 The correlation is there, but I’d say a good line is first and foremost. In the same volley Albert Tamm threw 710’ at 79 mph, he also threw 635’ at 80 mph. Earlier, Thomas Gilbert threw 672’ at 70 mph. Disc choice and having very good touch are super important factors.
@@MaxLBogue So basically we can say that as long as Simon finds the perfect disc and angle and disc height, he can throw 800 feet on a golf shot
@@MaxLBogue True.
writing this only 2min in, I don't think Gyro makes it go farther. I'd expect gyro to make it more turn and fade resistant. If you look at how long it takes before a disc starts to turn, I'd expect it to be delayed because the heavier rim keeps it more flat, fighting against any tilting, due to the increased gyroscopic effect. I think gyro has it's place - just not on every slot in your bag.
A disc's speed rating relates to the release velocity needed to get the intended flight characteristics from a particular disc. Not how far it will go. Am I wrong?
After receiving several Gyro discs in a Gyropalooza box Christmas present, was very curious about the effectiveness of this overmold technology so this video is timely and informative 👍. Also, recently added an Era to my bag and is now my favorite driver for precision lines requiring some shot shaping.
Adding the slow motion after each throw is greatly appreciated, especially when studying the intricacies of your form and combined with the 0.25x speed for super slo-mo. Awesome content.
trickery????? Bro you don't have to like it but making accusations is pretty brutal of you. unsubed.
I have to honest, this series has been the most straight forward comparison that I have seen about MVP. I'd like to see a deeper dive into the differences and maybe get an off season study where enough reps could be had to get even out the data and see if there is anything to be gained that way, but this is by far the best one I have seen. Something with spin like Danny did. Viewing this I sort wish that you had set up a tripod for the throws and use your camera person as a catch cam so that we can see the discs flight a little bit better from different perspectives.
Keep up the good work, it's really enjoyable and informative.
You know you throw far when you opt for the bicycle to go check out your throws 😂😂
That's what I was thinking when I saw the bike.
Solid, fair take. Haters gonna hate regardless, but there was clear no bias given.
i think if you had a speed gun to show how fast each throw was it would add a lot of value
I think these are free videos and I don’t have enough help to have a throw cam, catch cam and radar gun. Maybe I can collab with Jomez or something lol.
@@DrewGibson I am very grateful for the free content and only wish you the best and hope to see your channel grow 👍
Genius idea. Hope Drew can make it happen.
I thought that snap cracked my phone screen. Holy hell...
This is why we see Calvin ripping and eagle VERRRRY far.
The lower speed discs tell the truth. Also try some Fission plastic
As someone who throws mostly mvp, I think it’s harder to get their discs up to speed to see the full flight which is why I can’t throw any disc from them faster than an 11 speed.. But I can throw my mvp putters, mids, and fairways further than their counterparts at the same speed. I’m hoping the fission plastic coming into the distance drivers might help but we’ll see.
Thanks for more great content Drew. I’ll be honest, I was hoping the conclusion you were going to have was that gyro does just go further, but I’ll take the truth over good marketing every single time.
I agree, the mvp mids and putters are where it’s at, crave is good, I don’t really use anything faster from them
The heavy plastic on the rim creates more inertia to overcome to get them up to proper spin and release velocity out of the grip. If you don't have enough snap, there is no getting inertia heavy discs up to proper speed.
@@coach_chris_taylor Weight is such a HUGE factor in all of this. People need to experiment with lighter weights. Find a disc that suits YOUR throw, not the other way around.
@@coach_chris_taylor I can get max weight 9 speed discs to do what they are supposed to do but not with faster discs, other than my fission photon and fission wave which are lighter. Those things FLIP. Finding the thought weight for me while I work to improve my form (and snap) is important. In the meantime I’m throwing other brands.
Dude throws so far he has to bring his bike to do field work.
play a diffrent course already!!!!....
Great video Drew! These disc companies need to hire you as a consultant on what their disc speeds should be. Here's my honest opinion- there aint a damn reason why anyone in the AM divisions should throw a 14.5 speed. So while that was enlightening, my focus was more on the Octane vs Boss. And your conclusion was my conclusion: You don't gain any extra feet on distance drivers. The difference is found on slower speed discs like putters and mids and even some fairways. Maybe you can make a video on that next? I liked the comparison videos you made a couple years back of all the best selling putters/mids/fairways/distance. Any chance we get a 2023 update on what's new in the market?
I'm not convinced gyro 🥙 goes farther but it would be nice to get 100 drives with each disc and come up with an average per disc for better results.
Great objective comparison! I have a feeling the minor differences between similar discs across manufacturers don’t make a huge difference to most of us average to intermediate players. I was impressed how you used the term « literally » correctly (literally throwing a Tantrum) It seems that most of the time people don’t understand how to use that term in the proper context.
I thought the speed number correlates to how fast the disc flies through the air, not how far?
Think on of the biggest things with the MVP lines is that if you throw them poorly at all, you are punished. They are a disc that you need snap on. Where as some other companies, if you maybe don't get the greatest snap but you still get some oomph behind it, the disc will fly well. MVP is sort of the "you are rewarded for throwing correctly" type of disc.
Like you said with the Glitch, if you can get a good snap on it, for it being a 1 speed, it will fly for days.
I agree. But good or bad throw. 1.5 of claimed speed should be noticeable.
thats honestly what i like about the glitch though it doesn't mask a bad throw with flight characteristics one makes you get better the other one lets you THINK you're getting better.. it'll force you to throw things that are for your arm speed/ skill level imo but i'm also not very good so LOL
but like drew says at 1.5 speed difference pros should be able to notice haha
@Drew Gibson very fair point. And let's all be real, of there is anyone in the game who has snap on a disc and could see the difference, it's you. So that 1.5 should have be noticeable for someone of your level. Think at AM it's more noticeable cause of weaker arm speeds and such
@@DrewGibson Flight numbers between companies aren't comparable. Especially with the Boss at 25 mm rim width. That would be a 15 speed MVP disc. MVP's speeds are based on rim width and the 14.5 speeds are 24.5 mm rim width. You threw all of the 14.5 speed discs further than the Boss that should be a 15 speed.
In theory, it should exactly be the other way round. Excess weight at the rim should add flight stability, as in: discs will hold their lines better.
Couldn't even watch this video past 3-4 throws... Can't see the disc 🤣🤣
Turn your quality up on your device. 480p won’t cut it.
It's also interesting to note that you threw a 160 class fission octane vs a 175g boss and they went about the same distance.
The Octane was too light/flippy that it ended up cut rolling, instead of getting full flight like some of the other throws.
No, he threw the max weight Octane the same distance as the Boss. The 160g Octane turned and burned on him. He didn't even measure it as you can see it in his hand when he measures the distance for the Excite.
@@donkarnage6032 ah I see, I thought they were all light weight
I'd love to see Drew do a vlog like this with the Løft Discs Bohrium. It's supposedly the most drag resistant driver on the market and even my noodle arm can get some impressive distance out of the flippy founders run.
The only way to determine if the one goes further (for given speed) than the other is with a machine & optimal spin, angle and identical release speed for each disc. Nice video and your throws are fantastic as usual!
No it’s not. You’re a human. Go throw a 5lb weight as hard as you can and a 3lb weight. I’m sure you’ll quickly know what one goes further. Don’t need a machine to see what should be a 1.5 difference in speed. No one needs to tell you a 4 iron goes further than a 6 iron even if you hit them both like crap.
@@DrewGibson This last sentence is exactly why we can't use a human to determine which disc goes further. In your video, you are figuring out which one goes further FOR YOU. This does not mean that the same disc goes further for anybody. The only way to determine this as a fact is to use a machine.
@@DrewGibson Scientifically he's right. There are too many uncontrolled variables at work here, and we could see that you didn't throw each shot on the same angle and height each time. Plus you said you threw the MVP disc better than the Halo Boss, so right there it's not a fair comparison. Also you're outside so there's wind, which we all know is hugely important for disc golf.
I feel like you're point is valid, it's just more about you not buying the '.5' speed rating, as opposed to seeing if gyro was strictly farther than non-gyro. It's a solid point just not quite what the title of the video is about, and making a matter of fact claim on evidence from like 8 shots is not scientific.
If your point was "Does Gyro make you THROW further" then I think you'd have something, but science and performance are different things in this instance.
Or you can just throw them
Wind speed, temperature, humidity and air pressure…
pdga page for the 14.5 speeds lists 24.5mm rim thickness. that’s the speed
The problem is that no matter how unbiased you are, after just three power shots in a row you are losing distance.
The only possible way to settle the question is to make a disc throwing machine which allows the user to set the amount of spin, as well as airspeed and hyzer angle, and then huck each disc with it enough times (in no wind) to obtain a statistically unequivocal result.
But the more important point about Gyro is that the Gyro effect is much larger in their putters than in the drivers. Due to the shape of the rims, a putter has a superior weight distribution, and is a longer lever than a driver so you can throw it harder - but that is true of all discs. But a putter has more drag, and so its glide ratio is lower. Glide = Lift / Drag.
Where the overmoulded and weighted outside of a disc shows itself to be valuable is in how long the disc will remain stable in flight, due to extra mass in the rim. A mental experiment where we shift all the mass to the middle of the disc shows how utterly awful that is, as it loses all gyroscopic stability unless the rotation speed is far in excess of what a human can apply.
And so the logic of what MVP are doing is correct, but the effect is small, and there is no free lunch in disc golf! You can only apply a certain amount of torque to a disc. And if the mass is more concentrated in the rim, then the torque you apply results in a lower spin rate.
BUT... if you have owned or sold MVP, then you know that no one else comes close to matching the quality of their mouldings. Innova and Discraft are waaaay down the list when it comes to quality and consistency. In my assessment, Trilogy is No.2. RPM is No.3.
I know it adds extra to your edits, but would love to see a follow flight via the app, Ace Trace. Really ups the content value as it’s hard to see, especially when you throw over 500 regularly.
rather scientific
let's be honest guys ... "gyro" is just a commercial trick!Nothing wrong with MVP but nothing special as well
yep, all other discs on the market also act as gyros because the rim of the disc holds the majority of the discs weight. just using an additional plastic molded over the edge is not giving it any sort of weight advantage over other discs, its just a novelty.
@@orion7741 It would give you a weight advantage if the gyro plastic has a higher density that the regular plastic. Then you can put more weight in the rim at the same volume and make the center of the disc lighter with a different density plastic.
I'd like to see you throw a ORC, WRAITH, DESTROYER, and BOSS. All at 70 percent power and then again at your max distance power. I think it would be cool to see the differences in the distance between the speeds 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at low and high power from someone like you who bombs!
gotta say that me and the buddies have enjoyed how long the crave goes, listed as a 6.5 speed. I think the Nuke is similar to these gyro 14.5 speed range drivers where the rim width is close (Nuke matches) the 2.5cm max rim width, they need that torque
The 14.5 speed disc have 24.5mm rim according to the mvp website. So it is larger than a 13 speed
Fun fact: Both the Innova Boss and Discraft Nuke are wrongly labled at speed 13. They both have the maximum rim width allowed by the PDGA Rules, which is 2.5 centimeters.
Wraith = 21 mm = Speed 11
Destroyer = 22 mm = Speed 12
Shryke = 23 mm = Speed 13
Boss = 25 mm = Speed 13???
Nuke = 25 mm = Speed 13???
'21 '22 Drew was more Johnny Lawrence. '23 Mullet Drew is more Miyagi.
If the Boss was an MVP disc it would be a 14.5 or 15 speed, based on its dimensions.
If the Boss came out today, Innova would call it a 14 or 15 speed, based on its dimensions.
Please respond to this Drew. Thank you for the content!
Innova Boss:
Max Weight: 176.0gr
Diameter: 21.2cm
Height: 1.5cm
Rim Depth: 1.2cm
Rim Thickness: 2.5cm
Inside Rim Diameter: 16.2cm
MVP Teleport
Max Weight: 175.1gr
Diameter: 21.1cm
Height: 1.9cm
Rim Depth: 1.2cm
Rim Thickness: 2.5cm
Inside Rim Diameter: 16.0cm
What is the "speed" of disc? Why can't we just differentiate by the rim width? Using "subjective" methods and terminology is just that, subjective.
Isn't the rim of the disc wider as the speed goes up? MVP/Axiom lists all their discs in categories based on a general rim width measurement. According to the PDGA measurements, MVP discs might not measure as exactly accurate as the MVP and Axiom websites advertise, but I do believe a 14.5 speed (24.5mm rim width) manufactured by MVP will have a wider rim than a 13 speed (23mm rim width) manufactured by MVP. Which would also make it more aerodynamic and there for "faster". Faster doesn't necessarily mean it's going to fly further, a lot of variables will play into that. Let me know if I'm missing something, but I don't think MVP is coming up with 14.5 speed solely for marketing purposes of their "technology", I understand there to be an actual rim width measurement behind that number. 🤷
I also wouldn't call it "trickery"... The speeds are relative to the rim thickness. The 14 speeds are 24.5 mm rim thickness and the 13 speeds are 23mm rim thickness. So the question is, does that change in rim thickness do anything to add value?
First off, thank you for this video.
But:
Once again there is no mention of disc velocity/torque and elevation.
It would be more accurate to throw the two discs repeatedly at different velocities and torques and then compare the difference. At some velocity/torque, the 14 will just flip over while the 14.5 will keep flying straight IF it's truly a 14.5. The over mold will help with this because of the increased MOI.
Rule number one for flight numbers: You absolutely cannot expect flight numbers to mean the same thing for different manufacturers. Full stop. Go ahead and ask any manufacturer, they'll tell you this.
MVP systematically rates the speed of all their fairway and distance drivers such that rim width = speed + 10 (in mm). Innova doesn't have much of a system it seems, just made it up as they went along. Also, MVP has never made any claims of their discs going further than others, fans have but not them.
Anyway, fun video but a bit of flawed premise.
If MVP's discs offered any real benefit over their competition we would've reached that conclusion by now. There's no magic in MVP's discs, at best a couple of characteristics you'll likely associate with them.
Honestly, MVP should stop trying to push the "gyro technology" narrative as they have and instead focus on the things that actually separate them from the rest. Things like the mold designs they trend towards (usually quite slim and flat) or the fact that they're more focused on lighter weights than any other disc company. Or make a big deal out of their tendency to fade harder (my experience).
Just anything other than this abstract effect "gyro" is supposedly having on our throws.
And to be clear, I do throw MVP & Axiom discs. That being said, I do not throw any of them thanks to "gyro".
I have recently learned that MVP uses only two different weights of flight plate per mold. Lighter weights are the lighter flight plate, and something like 165 to 175 g all have the same weight flight plate. That means that they vary the overmold density in order to hit all the different weights. This means that you get maximum gyro effect for 175 g discs. Also the new Fission discs are supposed to capitalize on the gyro effect because they use a super light flight plate and heavy rims to make discs all the way up to max weight.
I have dabbled with MVP/Axiom over the past year and to me it seems that the gyro discs are more resistant to off-axis torque, which means the understable/flippy discs (ones with -2 or -3 turn) are much more controllable than any other manufacturers. They are more forgiving. I am particularly fond of the Uplink. Normally I would have to beat a Roc3 to death to get a reliable disc that will drift right without burning over, but the Uplink does it out of the box.
The speed is incorrect... But on the Innova Boss. MVP measures their speed by their rim width -10. So for the octane the rim is 23mm, minus ten, equals 13 speed. The boss was the first of it's kind with the max allowed 25mm rim width. So you should think of the boss as a 15 speed. Same with the nuke. So in a way you are right, speeds don't translate across companies, but the speeds are wrong in favor of the MVP discs.
But more important than company A vs B, your sample size is way too small. Given the high amount of variables for a given throw, you'd need 10 throws of each disc to even start to get a vague picture of the distance for each disc from a statistical standpoint.
Considering non-gyro brands have made 15 speeds within the PDGA regulations, I don't believe the flight numbers actually correlate concretely to anything. For MVP, 14.5 fits more with their brand and the way their lineup is laid out than any physical characteristics their discs are going to have. Innova has a similar issue, where they make multiple 14 speeds that have less rim than the Boss, a max rim width 13 speed. IMO if the rim gets too wide, the discs tend to lose some of the neutrality that lets them stay on a forward-pushing line and actually glide for distance. Seems like the improved aerodynamics didn't do much to make up for that effect.
First we need to find the definition that these companies use, and compare it to how we are defining it colloquially. Theres a couple ways to define it: 1. More speed = further flight with the same throw OR 2. Speed = the amount of speed you have to throw the disc at to get it to fly according to the rest of the flight numbers.
EITHER WAY speed is arbitrary. But with the second definition, you can see “oh I need to throw a 14 speed like drew gibson to get it to have the rest of the characteristics” or, if you are drew gibson you can take a 10 speed and know “if I throw it 70% or around 10 speed then it might fly this way, but I can also throw it way harder and get it to flip more than the flight numbers say.”
I will say though, I just pulled these definitions out of my memory, and I am not sure which one companies use. Though they have detailed explanations on their websites!
For me I haven’t used flight numbers in so long, I always just want to see the physical shape of the rim from the profile view of it. That tells me what it will fly like because I can compare it to what I know about other discs and their physics.
Another wrinkle is that plastics GREATLY change flight, if you don’t already know how one plastic flies then flight numbers can just lead you astray.
in my thinking Gyro should make less of a difference as you go up in disc speed. High speed drivers are already designed with the majority of the mass in the rim, so I would expect there to be little difference between a high speed disc designed to be molded in a homogeneous plastic and one designed with a lighter core and more dense rim.
I think that IF Gyro technology could make discs fly farther that effect would be most observed by comparing putters and mids. For example, I throw Innova Studs and have experimented with the Envy. I've found them to be very similar with the Envy flying farther more consistently. However, the one Envy I have is Electron Firm plastic and my throwing Studs are Star plastic, so I think differences in plastic stability are playing a significant role there. I would need to try the Envy in some more premium plastics before I'd commit to the position that Gyro tech goes farther.
Compare rim widths instead of speeds. The 14.5 speed MVP discs are 24.5 mm rim width while a boss has the maximum allowed 25mm rim width. And the 24.5 speed mvp discs went somewhat consistently further, even if only 20 feet, than that 25mm boss or the 23 mm MVP drivers in this comparison.
Always love watching you throw, but throwing each disc once with no radar gun and at different heights and angles, etc is just meaningless.
As a mechanical engineer:
1. The difference between an overmold and every other disc is the difference between the plastic density of the overmold vs the plastic density in regular discs. It's not going to be that much.
2. Variation in throwing technique from throw to throw, velocity, disc height, disc angle, and tons of other variables will probably dominate whatever advantage can be had from overmolds.
3. There's a differential equation we use to calculate the uncertainty stack in a lot of interacting variables. The "uncertainty stack" from the player dominates the overmold.
If you want to know if something is "science" ask about uncertainty. For example, ask a "climate scientist" about the uncertainty in their models relative to their results....
MVP always have the speed being the width of the rim. All 13 speeds have the same rim width and all 5 speeds have the same rim width and so on. It just how they chose to have their discs speed interpreted. They could have called all 14.5 speeds 13 speeds if they wanted to.
i believe they add that 1.5 more or less because based on their research the gyro itself makes the disc “faster” but flight numbers are all kinda bs so🤷🏻♂️
Speed is based on the rim width and the 14.5-speed discs have a rim width of 24.5mm. These are actually some of the discs that aren't "tricking you" because the speed lines up with the width. The rive is a good example of the opposite they call it a 13 but has a rim width of 22mm. Saying they don't go further is fair if that's what you found in your throws but claiming the speed is a lie seems to miss the facts.
Also seemed like slow-mo shots didn't line up with the first shots which was confusing to me. Were there several throws of each or what? I don't know how you're making your conclusion because of this.
This is a great anecdotal experiment, but I'd love to see it repeated with some scientific rigor. Throw each disc multiple times to average any variability in your throw. You're a pro and so there isn't as much variability in what I would do, but nose angle, wind, power all still change from throw to throw. Also, as much as possible, you need to anonymize the discs so that there's no unconscious bias, "I know this is a 14.5 speed so I expect it go farther so I throw it harder."
I feel like the speeds of discs should really only be judged within one company. What a speed of 14.5 is telling you isn't that it's a speed and a half faster than a boss. It's telling you that it's the sharpest/widest rimmed driver in mvps lineup. Personally I think the measurements of these types of things should be more available and focused on. How wide is the rim? What's the intended parting line. What's the sharpness of the flight plate in degrees? I know you can go look this stuff up but another flight number like box with this info in it would be alot more helpful than the current flight number system for comparing discs from different companies. Ok rant over
This video is completely useless as there is so many variables to consider as well as I believe your theory is flawed. If you are comparing discs based on speed why not measure speed at which you are throwing and how does a claimed speed relate to distance?? Rated speed of a disc is not standardized/regulated by pdga therefore manufacturers are free to advertise their discs to their choosing. Your claim is the equivalent of saying "A speaker with a volume knob that goes to 11 should be louder than a speaker with a volume knob that only goes to 10" imo.
Boss has the same rim width as the Excite. It was Innova first 13 speed but should really be a 14. DD3, Shryke are true 13 speeds.
I don't really see bagging all mvp discs as an advantage to anyone. For some shots, and shots in the wind they might be better, but the claims about the tech allowing for more distance are shotty at best.
I'd be curious to see what happens in a controlled environment, using a machine to throw. Additionally, I'd imagine the only way to get as close to the truth as possible is having the machine throw a Streamline disc mold along with a Gyro copy of the same mold. The discs need to be the same, with the only variable being the Gyro. Comparing two companies, plastics, runs, ages and being thrown by an imperfect human in a windy field doesn't help the debate about Gyro.
We do need a robot throwing arm made. Obviously you’re a lot closer to throwing a consistent shot than I am. I can’t imagine even with your consistent arm that some slight differences in height and or angle would produce a different results. Especially only 15 to 30 feet. Even the manufacture that invented those numbers doesn’t make a claim that the disk will go further. The speed number reflects how hard you should be throwing it to get the other three numbers to perform as listed. Most of us know what happens with our amateur arm speed when we throw a seven speed a 10 speed and a 13 speed. Mine all go the about the same distance. With the higher speed disks I just need less stability to get them to turn and glide as far. Can we see what they do for you? Can you crush all three speeds? All with a similar flight path.
You do realize that Innova' halo (and Dismania's orbit) is a way to approximate the benefits of overmold tech but using 2 plastics in a solo mold.
So the 'tech' difference isn't really there when you choose a halo disc.
And as someone pointed out the boss is a bit of a mislabeled speed-wise.
Should have thrown them more than once. They were thrown at various heights and power. Not sure how you can get any information after one throw
I did throw more than once. I just posted the videos of the test. As you can see in the video the slo mos aren’t different than the normal speed.
It is almost impossible to conduct this experiment. Factors such as angle, glide, spin, stability, and wind influence distance. You could use a radar gun to make it slightly better, then see how the flights compare when released at the same speed, but then those other factors would still come into play. Really, a machine to that releases discs at the same angle, speed, and spin is the only way to accurately compare discs (golf has these). Maybe someday a manufacturer will develop such a machine for disc golf. It would cost a lot of money, but then they would be able to claim their flight numbers are the most accurate.
Do Gyro rims actually weigh more than a conventional rim with the exact same measurements? If not then that would debunk
the entire Gyro goes farther argument and it would mean that it is only a different color which does not make it fly farther. Idk. just an observation. BTW if you can throw like Drew it doesn't really matter because its going far either way.
OK? I don't get it. I thought the speed number means that the disc was intended to be thrown at that speed, or at least designed to be thrown at that speed and not necessarily that it would go further? All the flight numbers are arbitrarily chosen anyway, they aren't rooted in any real world metric and they differ from company to company anyway. When you look at flight numbers I find it far more useful to look at them in context to the other discs in that disc manufacturers line-up.
You can definitely tell a difference between my tantrum and any 13 speed at a short distance to a corner to get around something quick and fade back is how I use it. Throw them at a dog leg about 150ft and tell me which one gets there faster (easier). Tantrum all day
Great video.
Although I wish you would have done these same throws at least 3 times total if not 5 times. Doing that and getting an average would be way more scientific and truly give an accurate distance reading for each disc than a one off throw for each one.
But I do appreciate you doing this. :-)
Love the idea, but just want to point out a slight flaw. The boss actually has a wider rim than all the discs you threw! So technically it should have gone further than all of the MVP discs.
Liked this video just bcs one had to bike to his drivers...just next level stuff...also can´t get enough of these asmr disc releases aswell! :)
If Speed = faster arm speed and can get more distance, due to measurable wing differences/drag. No clue if 14 goes further than 13, or gyro goes further than non-gyro after a single throw, with no measurement of arm speed or shot tracking (consistent height of the throws, or release angle). I think your own biases are showing here when you say you threw one better than another only after you see the results. Not sure what the point was of this video.
i think using somewhat the same numbers would benefit everyone, companies and players, as you dont have to throw many molds from different companies to see what *their* flight numbers mean. But the flight numbers are chosen by the manufacturers, so who can say who holds the conclusion. But i do think its a bit misleading, as we all pretty much compare distance drivers to the companies equivalent of a destroyer 12, 5, -1, 3, and most of us know that speed is generally determined by rim thickness, so you would asume that a speed 14.5 got a wider rim than a 14speed driver.
And everyone are taught that you should avoid high speed discs when your not throwing at least many, many meters. so if you can barely get a good flight out of a 12speed driver, then there is no way you can throw a 14speed, and then people dont bother buying one because the *think* they wont get a proper flight out of it. But the discs got the same rim length, its just that the companies use different numbers, so thats why i think it would benefit everyone if the manufacturers used somewhat the same numbers for the same flying discs.
Here is my theory. I feel like I do notice a difference with lower speed discs, but not so much with higher speed. Perhaps it’s because a high speed driver already has a lot more plastic at the rim and less in the middle. The thick rim that all distance drivers have probably gives them all that gyro effect, so the overmold makes less of a difference. With the low speed discs, the rims are much thinner, so adding the over mold may be enough to push it up a category. Maybe that is why I can throw mvp putters almost as far as my mids and I can throw mvp mids almost as far as my fairway drivers, and 6 speed mvp fairway drivers fly like my 8 speed drivers, but anything faster than that I don’t really feel a noticeable difference.
Does anybody else have a similar experience?
in theory Gyro makes a difference, In a human test subject it may not lol. If they really believed in their science wouldn't they have numbers or research data on the improvements other than just a statement. It could be a 1% improvement but a 1% improvement in a 500 foot throw means 5 extra feet. One thing i do know is Gyro seems to make drivers more stable which could be attributable to the extra spins the disc receives from gyro but if that is the actual case then the only large improvements you would see it make is by increasing airtime by throwing higher. Say you have a robot throw these discs perfectly and they have large difference, it doesn't mean its attainable by a human the difference could be exponential and the loss of 1 degree in angle or speed would be drastic in results. I throw a majority mvp just because i like the look of the rims lol.
I'll break it down, lots of marketing from MVP. Not hating just reality..
A “radar gun” would add the data that you need to do an authentic comparison. If you watch Simon’s video from a year ago, the speed of the throw has dramatic results.
If you, a 99.99999999999 percentile thrower, can’t get more out these silly 14+ speeds then they are clearly pointless.
follow flights would help out alot I watch on my phone bro just saying I know the editing will suck buuuuut makes a big difference
Drew...when is Foundation going to invite you for a Debate Night? I think you'd be made for that show.
Throw 5 bosses and 5 of whatever mvp disc you think is the furthest. Give statistical analysis of each throw to see who the winner is.
My halo boss is my favorite distance driver by Innova but my tantrum goes about 40 ft further 🤘🏼
Glad your in a position where you’re able to do these sort of review. I’ve been wanted unbiased answer to this question for a while