For the next episode, we'll be playing up through the end of Mt. Gagazet, just after defeating the Sanctuary Keeper and listening to Yuna's final messages to everyone.
Will yall be going over some of the side quests? (I understand that this is a replay for yall so not really spoilers) mainly the omega story line and some weapon quests, I feel the lore from Yuna's celestial weapon is worth it and that involves gathering all Aeons which that too has great story and lore. Just food for thought, love the series!
@@jamescrawford4896 l know this is a year old but im just seeing it now and I hope they went over some chocobo lore as to explain why these big dumb birds are so big and DUMB THAT THEY CAN'T RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE GAHHH
Note on the scene at Bevelle Bridge (around 55:00): Auron pressures Yuna to leave Kimahri behind, saying he's a guardian and will do anything to protect her. She refuses, as does the rest of the party. He smirks and follows them toward Seymour. This ensures Auron that Yuna won't sacrifice one of her friends, not even for the pilgrimage, which is crucial to his plan.
Definitely feels like you're picking up the pace with your analysis here. It's not necessarily wrong, and I really appreciate how you are assessing the flaws of this chapter as narratively this section of the story is all over the place. I do wish you discussed the romance scene a bit more as it's so abstract that I feel like there's a lot to unpack there. The cinematography and sound design even before they kiss is quite a change of pace from anything we've seen up to this point. At a glance, we tend to think of kissing or romance in general as a kind of elevating action, whereas here the characters are falling/sinking into the depths of the pyrefly-infused waters. We also know from earlier scenes that this watery substance is what creates spheres which can hold memories or recollections. So, we can interpret this scene as Tidus and Yuna literally and figuratively creating new memories, the countless flecks or shards permeating the water as the memories of the world or the ether in which they exist. Given what we learn about Tidus' origins later in the game (even simply knowing his affinity for Blitzball which takes place in the water) this is also fitting. The position of the two lovers is very symmetrical and yin-yang, the way each touches the face of the other, even the contrasting skin color (FMV Tidus is much darker than game engine Tidus and Yuna is relatively paler). I really am amazed by the sheer amount of shards in the water, it gives the place a very astrological or space-like feel. Interestingly enough the Bevelle high court area also has stars visible in the ceiling, and we also eventually see the same visual imagery at Zanarkand Ruins. In a larger sense, there is a constant undercurrent of "descent" in this chapter. We first descend from the airship in the skies to the towers of Bevelle to interrupt the wedding, then we go down even further to the temple, and down again into the Via Purifico before emerging to the earthly Spira. Regarding the awkward story beat where the party first runs away from Seymour and then goes back for Kimahri, it was lazy writing, but gameplay-wise I think the developers wanted to offer players a way to purchase items and grind with more random battles in case they weren't able to defeat Seymour right away.
It always seemed clear to me that Tidus and Yuna aren't floating through the aether or in some dream metaphor land but explicitly in the lake playing underwater. When Tidus kisses her he's giving her air and she stays with him in his safe underwater enviorment and leaves the surface world behind for a moment.
In 7 the assumption they have sex is because of her reaction afterwards (only if you have a certain affection with her) and that an interview in the Ultimania states it was meant to be more explicit with them both leaving the Chocobo stables. So while I agree it wasn't meant to be sexual in 10, 7 definitely intended it to be a sexual encounter given you have enough affection with Tifa.
Regarding Yuna not sending Seymour after the fight against his Natus form; My assumption was that he dissipated into pyreflies upon defeat like a fiend, not leaving a body to be sent, and that his will allowed him to reform some time later. Similarly, I could be convinced that Seymour resists being sent at early points in the story due to his strong will that he can and will become sin.
This has quickly become my favorite podcast series! Final Fantasy X was the most defining game of my childhood and it's incredible to see how much symbolism, allusions, and rhetorical content was packed into the experience. You've earned another subscriber!!
35:43 the first cutscene of FF X-2 really has a big tonal shift that probably had most of the audience with the wrong impression, I really recomend the cutscene that occurs much later, on chapter 4, with the Thousand Words song. That cutscene conveys the tone of the post-sin Spira way better in my opinion. A divided nation with so many factions fighting for power that get to understand each other by listening to the story of fate of two lovers separated by a war that happened during Zanarkand's prime.
Yuna didn't send Seymour during the Natus fight because he had become a fiend and the party killed him. We don't send every random fiend we fight, after all. His will is just so strong that he keeps coming back, and as he absorbs more pyreflies he becomes a more powerful fiend.
A note about music: although you can have “Arranged” versions in the remaster, the original Via Purifico music is solely piano as well. This track likely made it to the piano collections because of how easily translatable it is. What a great track. I always keep the original music for the nostalgia.
That’s something I never thought of; a city that never sleeps. In this way, an active nightlife almost seems like the Sun invading the Moon’s territory - turning the Night into the Day. I don’t know if that’s intentional, but that’s an interesting symbol of Tidus’ Zanarkand being out of balance. A city that never sleeps is a dream that Yuna (the Moon) can’t have; because the things the Sun represents and the things the Moon represents are mutually exclusive, in that an increase in one means a decrease in the other.
Maybe there’s some kind of catch to sending physically manifested fiends? Otherwise Yuna could just send all of the fiends in the random battles. Maybe once they have become physical they must be beaten or weakened to be sent unwillingly. Like how fiends manifest as Pyreflies when defeated.
When you defeat Seymour Natus, it looks like he loses a few pyreflies but the effect they show kinda makes it look like he teleports away... he never actually falls down or disperses.
For some reason after i read your comment i pictured that scene from me, myself and irene where jim carrey is trying to fight that guy who threw the cigarette butt on the ground and he grabs a handfull of dirt and throws it in his face, but he misses completely and hits renee zellwigger instead. I got a good laugh out of it.
Just a note about the duels as a means of "leaving it up to god" in Game of Thrones, the idea of trial by combat is one that I believe existed in the middle ages as well on a similar basis. I also find it amusing that the characters mention how many summoners stray from/abandon their pilgrimage at the Calm Lands and of course this is the area of the game where you suddenly can do a dozen side quests that can distract you from progressing the story.
Lmao I love that, they all got distracted by training chocobos and rage-quit 🤣 Funny that you mention that, one of my first playthroughs I stopped for that exact reason. Didn't make the connection that I had ended the pilgrimage in the Calm Lands exactly as they said. Clever to put that in the game, haha. Wonder if it was intentional
"Enlightened rule by the dead is preferable to the misguided failures of the living." Says one of two maesters currently alive in the presence of a known murderer... Kinoc jinxes, and potentially foreshadows, his own death by inadvertently allowing Seymour to believe he would be happier being dead and remaining as an unsent rather than continuing to be alive. Seymour would see Kinoc's "beliefs" as justifying his own views on Spira and ultimate plan for everyone.
In defence of the scene between Tifa and Cloud in Final Fantasy 7, it differs depending on how high your affection rate with Tifa is. If it is high enough, Tifa says something along the lines off “words aren’t the only way to show how you feel”, then it cuts to the scene of her lying on Cloud. Then the next day, when the party returns to the Highwind, she breaks down in embarrassment and says “ were you watching”, as opposed to her saying “ were you listening”, when her affection rate is lower. Apparently , the scene was originally going to be more explicit, with the two of them leaving the chocobo farm on the Highwind, and Tifa looks left and right when leaving. So it’s left ambiguous, but it can be inferred that something more happened.
Mike seems very agitated by the potential implication of characters having sex. Don't know why. For one, the games came out at a time when any sexual reference would be perceived as highly controversial and its also never been Final Fantasy's MO when it comes to telling stories. I don't think that eliminates the potential to view both the scenes brought up in discussion as containing allusion to it happening though. I personally always saw the implication being there in both cases (more so if affection was high enough in 7 ) FF runs the full spectrum of human emotion and experience, if there's a few instances of some implied pixelated pounding what harm?
@@grahamwade5932 "Mike seems very agitated by the potential implication of characters having sex." Not at all. I would have criticized Xenogears for its sex scene if this were the case. I didn't do that because it was contextually and thematically appropriate there. There is nothing at all from the scene here that indicates Tidus and Yuna had sex. On top of this, Kimahri is standing 10 feet away watching them, which Tidus saw on his way in (you can talk to Kimahri and he points to where Yuna is) and the party is around the corner. It makes no sense whatsoever that they would do that here.
I love how they're going on and on about the wedding, and they're completely right! But it's funny because we all know when Mike's head is exploding about the staff manifesting from no where, the rest of us gamers are thinking of Solid Snake keeping a rocket launcher, box, thousands of rounds of ammo for his aresenal of 47 miltiary arms. Just points to his bandana, "infinite ammo". Like Yuna has an inventory of 137 Staves and bangles, thousands of potions and Mix ingredients. But she pulls out the stick up her ass one time and everybody loses her mind! I thought we'd be happy she finally chilled out! Ok but for real, though. How interesting would it be if Yuna simply confided her plan with Lulu, or Auron, or Kimahri, or the party in general, or ANYONE, and the whole time the plan WAS to get her her Staff during the ceremony? And then play the reverse uno card gambits back and forth until the outcome in the game? IT would make too much sense, right!?
Consistently one of the best things to look forward to every Wednesday. I love the videogame book club concept and have been watching every upload since Nier. I know that Mike isn't too hot on the direction that Xenoblade 2 took but I was wondering if you guys ever plan to play through Xenoblade 1 for State Of The Arc? It's still easily one of my favorite JRPGs of all time and I'd love to do a third playthrough along with the podcast at some point. Keep up the awesome work and also congrats on breaching the 3k goal on Patreon! Well earned.
Actually that scene in FF7 you're referencing under the highwind with Cloud and Tifa was confirmed that they had sex in the Ultimania by the creators. "Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle. Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me. - The line “Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game. Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down. Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs)."
This sounds like originally there was a sex scene planned for that moment, but they cut it out due to ratings/approval issue. So all that is left over is the "risqué line of dialogue" that implies they might have done something more than just talk. But it doesn't really confirm that they had sex when that scene fades to black. It was left ambiguous. They could have just kissed or cuddled or whatever. Even Tifa's "You were watching?" moment afterwards could have been embarrassment of the others seeing her and Cloud kiss each other. *Shrug*
@@dudemcguy1227 Except for the fact that the creator's intent was the original scene and they just toned down the visual impact of the scene for ratings sake, doesn't negate that the creator's intent was that Cloud and Tifa have sex in that scene.
Really good point on Bevelle. Never really realized it before on any other play through because I was so caught up in the action of it all. Stepping back though and listening to this.. it doesn’t make much sense 😂 only sense I can make is the party has no real plan to rescue Yuna and emotions are so high. Typically, in these sort of situations our judgment is clouded. I think the Squaresoft team banked on everyone being so invested in the action on screen, logic got thrown out the window. And I think overall that it worked lol. I also am curious if Seymour’s plan to become the final aeon would have worked. Yunalesca says the summoner and guardian need this unbreakable bond. They clearly don’t have that “married” or not lol.
The Calm Lands are so similar to the Archylte Steppe that, considering FF13 was originally being developed for PS2, I’m willing to bet Pulse originally had reused a ton of Calm Land in-game assets. Either way, I loved each area respectively.
While there's no indication of this, My logic had always been that to be sent the way Jyskal was, it requires the one being sent to be /willing/. Otherwise, Yuna would have to do the whole sending ritual dance.
I think the cover your eyes and Seymour not covering his eyes kinda makes sense. I've experienced something like this happen but instead of shouting 'Cover your eyes' someone shouted 'run!' and a number of people didn't run and just looked around trying to see what is going on. I guess that is basically the same idea since Seymour isn't looking when Rikku threw the flashbang. 10/10 great episode.
I'm months late to this episode, had it on while I re-caulked my shower lol. I've seen other people post about this but didn't see anyone post the exact excerpt but while I never for one second thought the Tidus/Yuna scene involved sex, the FF7 scene absolutely 100% does since Tifa's dialogue changes if you have enough affection points with her. With low affection points, Tifa returns to the Highwind and sees everybody there and says the line "You were listening???!". If you have high affection, her line is changed to "You were watching???!" and she collapses to the floor 😂
Exactly! If you were team Tifa the whole game then cloud and Tifa definitely have sex. The way Mike was so condescending and dismissive about it lost him a lot of points in my book. Someone clearly didn't understand the game he played. 🙄
I'm getting caught up on these a few weeks late, but I was curious if I'm the only one that is reminded a lot of Valefor, looking at the Guardian Wyrm Evrae's design? A similar color palette, the sort of hook shapes of it's spines, and just the general weird-dragon-but-weird vibe. I've always been really fascinated by Valefor's design and this is the closest thing that feels like a connection: two different beasts protecting Yuna, one given to her by the Fayth and one of the church, like a corrupted version of Valefor, being sent to keep her friends away.
So with the weapon thing, I can understand the confusion with where it came from but like one person said it could be that they materialize the weapon. You can make the same argument for the opening part of the game where auron gave tidus his weapon. Could this man really be holding 2 swords in his cape?? It’s possible but 🤷♂️. I like to think the weapons are summoned onto the person or they probably shrink the weapons then make it grow normal size when needed in battle
A few things on the wedding scene. Firstly, I feel at this stage Yuna is only trying to fight Seymour. She is still seeking peace with Yevon. So when Mica interjects, it's with the force and authority of Yevon. I'd also say that there is a correlation between the complexity of the Sending ritual and the unwillingness of the spirit to be sent. Jyskal wanted to be sent, having delivered his sphere, so that was easy. The Kilika sending was of a lot of people unfairly killed for no good reason - you'd have to imagine they would be full of resentment so it takes a strong Sending to get them to the Farplane. Sending Seymour would be on the difficult side - I don't think she could do it on a whim. Secondly, Rikku's flashbomb. I'd have to check, but I think one of her "Mix" overdrives would achieve the same effect. So this would explain why it was used the way it was. She doesn't have a flashbomb on her person, she has to make it. This takes time so she needed another distraction from Yuna to get attention (and gun barrels) away from her. It also explains why the party reacted correctly to her warning because they've gotten used to her combat style, whereas the warrior monks would not know what to do. I have no idea about the staff. Maybe it was carried by one of her attendants, and it would have been used as a prop for the wedding? Heck of a stretch I know...
I really like the 2nd fight against Evrae in the underwater section of the Via Purifico. This time Evrae has the zombie status effect and you can "purify" him with phoenix downs. It fits the narrative well. Also you can win this fight super easy that way :P
I remember specifically the wire jumping scene in tv ads and such when I was a kid and thinking how cool that was. No wonder GameCube didn't stand a chance when these came out around same time.
I think massive parts of Bevelle were changed during development. Not only can you see a save sphere in a cutscene that you never actually get a chance to use, so much of the game’s story structure here makes little sense. I think since they had some assets of the area that needed to be used, they had to work around the changes the best they could and that’s why you have background/rooms you only see once and never again.
Regarding that brief mention of the Cloud/Tifa Under the Highwind scene I just wanted to clear some things up because the way they describe it is kind of wrong. The argument against Cloud and Tifa having sex was that they were in the same position before and after during the fades to black and that’s just not how the scene went down. It’s definitely more obvious in Tifa’s high affection scene but in both the cuddling happens only after the fade to black. Some strong points that for them having sex. 1. Tifa says before the camera pans upwards and fades to black “Words aren’t the only way to tell someone how you’re feeling” is about as obvious you can get using film language. 2. When they return to the high wind when Tifa find outs Cid and the others watched them she’s falls to the floor absolutely mortified which is kind of a weird reaction if they were just cuddling. 3. This has more to do with the original version of the scene. But the idea was that it would take place the morning after and Cloud and Tifa emerge from the Chocobo Stables. Tifa asks if she thinks anyone saw them and Cloud respond Well the Chocobos did. Which is about as obvious you can get without outright saying it.
What if, while Yuna was jumping from the Bevelle Temple, Valefor was currently busy somewhere else? LIke, Belgemine was giving some other brand-new summoner her battle tutorial, and she already had Valefor out. Yuna would just be seriously hosed. :V
Cool thought, but every Summoner can summon their own set of summons. Otherwise it wouldn`t make sense, have multiple summoners runnig around, if everyone would only exist one time in this world.
I always just assumed sending Seymour would be pointless, as his attachment to this world, and his goal of becoming Sin would just allow him to return as his father did. I feel like after the party truly defeats Sin he would have no reason to return and could finally rest in the Farplane.
46:50 the short scene with Seymour, Kinoc and Micah is one of my favorites because of how villainous and cheesy the priests act when they drop their masks around each other; it’s like 3 palpatines trying to outdo each other
Thematically, the Calm Lands opening up right at the same time Yuna’s world does really works. She can do anything now. It’s not just a narrow hallway she’s forced to walk down.
In my opinion Seymour became a fiend as he absorbed the others. I think there is a distinction between an unsent and fiend (like stage 1, stage 2), Lulu explained it somewhere. At the end of the battle Semour (his pyreflies) just fled, I guess. The following is a SPOILER: When you defeat him within SIn he has nowhere to go, so Yuna could finally sent him at that point.
I always thought that Yuna jumping from the tower was a last minute decision, not a planned one. I think she originally planned to send Seymour, and because she isn't aware about how deep the corruption of the Maester's go, she expected everyone to be surprised that he was dead. I honestly don't believe she expected to meet opposition from anyone else. I could totally be wrong though. As for the flash bomb, I feel like Seymour didn't even register Rikku's warning because he was too stunned by Yuna's jump, but he could just be an idiot. Thanks for your time!
It also looks as though in the scene when Seymour takes on his Natus form in Bevelle, pyreflies from Kinoc and the other soldiers are absorbed into him. I always just assumed he had become a part of Seymour's Mortibody. So maybe he only was able to become his own independent unsent after Seymour was destroyed for the final time.
Great episode this week guys! Firstly, I was wondering if either of you caught that there's some kind of message inscribed on the floor of Tidus and Auron's cell when they are imprisoned before the trial, I'm not sure if it's yevon script or something else, but I've never heard anyone talk about it. Secondly, I'm not sure if it was on purpose but Casen referring to Yuna's personality as "blooming" reminds me of what he said in previous episodes about Yuna being associated with the hibiscus flower. She's beginning to finally bloom, but now the pilgrimage is nearly over, and that bloom is going to be short lived just like the hibiscus. Have a good week guys!
The gang skating on the cables was the first imagery I saw from this game, and I immediately went “Gimme Gimme Gimme!” As you guys talk about Wakka’s journey, I end up thinking about a JRPG called Infinite Undiscovery. Don’t both with it, the game’s as good as it’s name. But I vividly remember there being a Priest character in your party, and inevitably the game ends as Friendship vs God trope. When the false God reveals himself to be Demiurge-like, the Priest guy shrugs and says “oh well that’s my religion a lie.” Calm as a cucumber. No crisis of faith, nothing. So while FFX can be criticised for some stuff, Wakka’s cognitive dissonance in the face of his faith turning out to be not what he thought is pretty well considered. And yeah, I thought the scene with Yuna and Tidus was an abstract representation of them making love or whatever. I ain’t into shipping or wanting to see two CGI models stepping up to get down, but I can only calls it how I see it. Then again, considering how weird the story is at times, they could literally be floating about. Either way, I hope Kimari read a book or something while it was happening
i appreciate you guys so much! thank you for the continued coverage of this game and giving us some great laughs! the comedy is so great when the days are getting tough xD you 2 are the best!
1:11:30 There is actually an English Language version of Sudeki Da Ne on the Distant Worlds album. I quite like it. The game itself however only features the original Japanese lyrics, even in the International and European versions
Reminding me how much I loved this game back when it came out. I didn't care for 9 that much, just couldn't get invested in the characters or story, except Vivi. And you guys are right about how this game handled romance. It felt more genuine. Like it came from a place of friendship, loyalty, and love rather than a convenient paring or because the game wants it to happen. I think that's a much more mature and realistic way to convey a meaningful relationship, and FF10 does that very well. I can't help but consider the Mass Effect games, where it's all down to dialogue options. You can bench a romance character the entire game and never experience life with them, but still romance them. The game dialogue doesn't change to reflect what experiences you've shared, just what options you've chosen. While that does give the player room to choose and play their own way, it just doesn't feel as real. Strangely, the biggest exception to this is romancing Jack. She's this hard and hateful victim of monstrous experiments, and as you get closer to her, she opens up little by little. The final scene of the romance with her is less carnal, and shows just how sensitive she really is deep down. Just seems more real and sweet than most.
I feel they come off for that section, then are solidly back on for the rest of the game. The scene in Macalania Woods is fantastic, and Zanarkand is the narrative peak of the game imo.
The part of the execution reminded me of the reason why the different Inquisitions throughout Europe used only certain methods of execution: "the Church abhors blood" they said, quite cynically. This is related to Via Purifico: the execution by being burnt at the stake doubled as a way to avoid blood being shed and also as a way to purification, since they believed fire had that property.
Ah, suffering, my favorite subject, and that of every Russian soul. Dostoevsky fills out tomes upon tomes meditating on the question: "And why are you so firmly, so triumphantly, convinced that only the normal and the positive--in other words, only what is conducive to welfare--is for the advantage of man? Is not reason in error as regards advantage? Does not man, perhaps, love something besides well-being? Perhaps he is just as fond of suffering? Perhaps suffering is just as great a benefit to him as well-being? Man is sometimes extraordinarily, passionately, in love with suffering, and that is a fact." "And yet I am convinced that man will never give up true suffering- that is, destruction and chaos. Why, suffering is the sole root of consciousness." "And, indeed, I will at this point ask an idle question on my own account: which is better - cheap happiness or exalted sufferings? Well, which is better?" "I drink because I wish to multiply my sufferings!" Not just Nietzsche but many philosophers of the Far East assert that "life is suffering." Casen mentions the Cycle of Samsara earlier. The alternative to Samsara (Dukkha) is the achievement of Nirvana (Moksha) - the release from the karmic cycle of death and rebirth by knowledge of the true-self, the jettisoning of all attachments, cravings and desires. It is said that attachment/passion/desire is the source of suffering, and liberation from such is liberation from suffering. Attachment to life is attachment to suffering, and it is that attachment to life itself which keeps a soul within the cycle of death and rebirth. Seymour's motive of forcibly ending suffering and therefore the cycle of rebirth by simply forcing death on everyone is a bit of a cliche but its also a rationalization for any egomaniac with a messiah complex. It's the logic of a SUICIDE CULT. It makes a degree of sense, but only on the surface. One does not achieve nirvana en-masse, however. One cannot force others to let go of attachment to their own lives. The karmic cycle cannot be broken by omnicide -- omnicide is in fact impossible. Man is *fond* of suffering. He will *be* reborn if you simply kill him. One must choose to let go of attachments himself to achieve liberation from the cycle. In effect -- one much *choose* to leave it behind -- one must *send himself* to Nirvana. The reason Seymore couldn't succeed in liberating Spira *from* suffering by *imposing* death *in-universe* is because he not only has to *kill* everyone, but *send* everyone. He hasn't even liberated himself from his sufferings -- he is *unsent* himself. This is the problem with viewing suffering as a negative -- suffering is at the essence of the human experience (and I'd point out to Mike that there is subtlety to even positive emotions - joy, love, etc. -- these too are forms of suffering. As Dostoevsky says elsewhere - "to LOVE is to SUFFER and there can be NO LOVE otherwise"). The goal of wiping out suffering while existing within the karmic cycle of suffering cannot be achieved. In order to overcome suffering one must overcome life itself - one must no longer live at all to be rid of it. How could someone who refuses to let go of life, therefore, end suffering for anyone else? The bottom line is - Seymoure is doomed to failure even if he succeeds. He will perpetuate the cycle by becoming Sin. Just like every other time it happened. His true goal isn't an end to suffering -- but just like everyone else in the Yevon Hierarchy, it's simple Self-Elevation within the confines of the karmic cycle. He is an agent of False Enlightenment, a False Buddha -- an Anti-christ, even -- he is in love with his own suffering, and his actions will only create more suffering. If he wanted to do what he says he wants to do, not only would he not pursue becoming Sin, he'd just go to the Farplane, where suffering no longer exists, and be pyreflies. The party's goal is the truth way out of the Cycle -- by teaching people to let go of their attachment to Yevon, to Life As Suffering, and embrace what lies beyond -- by Sending Yevon, and all life when its time comes, to the Farplane. honestly its p deep i like it. final dostoevsky quote to summarize yuna's attitude vs. seymour's: "A true friend of mankind whose heart has but once quivered in compassion over the sufferings of the people, will understand and forgive all the impassable alluvial filth in which they are submerged, and will be able to discover the diamonds in the filth."
I totally get the criticisms with respect to the staff coming out of nowhere. With respect to the general scene however, I’ve always read it as a fluid situation. Yuna fears for her friends and tries to divert all the attention to herself. The game effectively highlights this by the amazing FMV with her falling back and summoning Valefor to catch her. By drawing all the attention to herself, she allows her comrades a moment to use this opening and escape. Of course, the party is likely too worried that Yuna might die to be formulating spur of the moment plans to escape, which is why she tries to reassure them. Once the party knows she’s good, Rikku thinks of something quickly. This is essentially how the scene plays out and I never thought it was too dissatisfying. There was no guarantee it would allow them enough time to think of something, but as you say, it gives us a more emotionally packed scene, and in a fluid situation like that there are no guarantees. She trusts her friends will think of something with the opening she has granted them. Also, there would be no guarantee they’d be ushered to safety by any Yevonites either. It’s a bold move but I think it makes sense and makes for quite a moment (albeit with some goofy elements like Rikku’s warning). The parts of Bevelle that are harder to defend concern splitting your party into those who can and can’t swim and placing them into separate totally escape or dungeons. Like, what? Lol.
Re: the swimming thing, I feel the implication is that they were all thrown into the same place, but the ones who aren't elite swimmers are flushed down into where they end up, while T/W/R can actually fight the current and take what's effectively a shortcut that doesn't even go past Isaaru who was meant to be all their executioner.
@@Karifean That’s an interesting theory I have not heard, but I wonder what we are to make of Evrae Altana, who I always read as T/R/W’s executioner. Perhaps they’ve set it up that no matter if you can swim or not, you’ll be executed either way? To me there’s a simpler explanation: they prioritized gameplay over story because they thought it would be more interesting to split the party. Who knows. Despite a weak story moment, I still think FFX has one of the strongest stories in the series so I don’t let it get me down too much. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@@landonech I think the zombie Evrae Altana is the dead Evrae we just fought falling from the sky down below into the waters and also being flushed into these sewers. A convenient coincidence, basically.
No yeah they totally banged, Cloud and Tifa too while we’re on the subject. Hahahahaha ahhhh sorry I’m just cracking myself up. Definitely an emotional release and an inspiring and motivating experience. To share a kiss 💗.
The way I interpreted the ledge jump scene was that Yuna removed herself from danger so the party could fight Seymour and the temple guards or flee without risk of her becoming a hostage, but that could be entirely wrong.
Might I just point out, Auron here clearly describes the "Spiral" of death. Where else do we see spirals - in the eyes of the Al Bhed, the only faction willing to challenge the spiral of death. Interesting, and possibly symbolic, that the spiral is in their eyes, eluding that they are the ones who see the Spiral of death for what it truly is, while the rest of Spira does not see it.
I don't know how many people have noticed this but the scene with Yuna and Tidus at the lake resembles a scene from the movie The Beach with Leonardo DiCaprio, which came out around the same time.
They could have fixed that entire wedding scene by having the party flee to a spot where they can still see the platform where the marriage was taking place. They'd be away from trouble but also be able to see Yuna fall
This is my favorite story in any game and one of my favorites in all of fiction but you guys were spot on with the wedding scene. If it wasn't for the execution being so poor, I would have no major complaints with the narrative.
Absolutely loving this series Mike and Casen! Lots of great analysis as always, but I also think you've really hit your stride with these podcasts (across the board - pacing, conveying ideas, bouncing off of each other, etc.) =D Lots of great points on the wedding sequence that I'd never thought of! **BUT** I would say that one thing which does make it effective despite this is the player's role in the sequence. The story does a good job of making the player really *want* to save Yuna, and then forces you to fight your way up the stairs, through quite a few enemies to reach her, while the tense music plays. While it's hokey pausing to fight so many enemies, I think it compliments the emotions of the sequence very well, and makes the player earn the rescue - reaching the top yourself feels more significant than Rikku just throwing a flash grenade in a cutscene, for example. But there are plenty of issues with the following scenes (which are now very clear to me haha). I'm not a shipper, but I've always seen the Macalania Woods sequence as a visual representation of Tidus and Yuna's newfound sense of oneness. So, as I've gotten older (I played the game as a kid for the first time), I felt was a really beautiful way of representing them having sex in a game that naturally wouldn't ever show that explicitly. So I respectfully disagree that it's definitively *not* that. And given later events, I quite like the thought that they had this one intimate night. Regardless, it's very sweet =) As others have pointed out, though, VII's intimate scene is definitely intended to be sexual (via dialogue and at least one interview I've seen) - assuming your affection values with Tifa are high enough =P
0:27:25 Every symbol is backwards in the stained glass, so I would assume you're supposed to read it from the outside looking in. Even with this knowledge, the symbols/letters are seemingly random even when you read them backwards.
If you ever switch weapons or armor during battle, you see that said weapon or amor disappears and the new one materialize in its place. That makes me believe that they can make their weapons appear or disappear at will. Would explain why in a lot of cut scenes they seem to be without a weapon, but then suddenly be ready to fight. As why it seems like she pulled it from behind, she was trying to be sneaky sneaky about it.
8:28 Yuna pulled her staff out of the same pocket dimension that they normally store their weapons and inventory. Like, this is just a thing in all Final Fantasy games that is never explained. FFVIII in particular has multiple scenes where Squall just pulls his 4-foot long gunblade seemingly out of his butt. Your party has three tons of various spheres, weapons, shields, and other random items that can be accessed by the entire group at any time. A few games in the series attempt to actually have some kind of half explanation for your (always gigantic) equipped weapon appearing when needed (mostly in XV) but none of them ever explain how you can carry around 800 different pieces of equipment everywhere you go. It really is just a thing where you gotta just shrug and say whatever. In FF games everyone can materialize their weapon from nowhere. Best not to think about it too much.
10:00 The problem w/ Yuna's plan is if our party didn't show up the Bevelle guards just would have simply shot her on Mika's command instead of being able to threaten us.
I think I know how the Yuna marriage scene came about. Nomura or Kitase (probably the former) came into the scene with an idea of what should happen, and then told Nojima to write it up that way. Nojima probably said "uh, doesn't that ruin Yuna's leverage? And where does she get the staff?" But the directors told him to do it anyway. I say this because I have been in writer's meetings like these, where I am explaining to a client why a certain plot point is cool, but doesn't work with the logic of the world and/or hurts one of the next plot points we're planning to deploy. Usually, my clients will see the problem. They might not always like the solution, but they usually don't just power through and say "do it anyway." But Nomura is definitely a "it's about the feelings!" kind of guy, plot points be damned. To be fair to him, it's a strategy that has not hurt his career.
I honestly like when you guys point out the flaws in the game. There are quite a few and I think there is a tendency in this level of analysis to be overly positive (because most of the audience love the game already) so the flaws are given a pass. But being able to point out the flaws makes the flattering more authentic.
The thing is, this is the first section that has big issues, as long as you're aware of what is actually happening and not just going "Ha, meme!" The story overall is very tight, and all of the overarching themes help an immense amount in building replayability and it's staying power.
They show that powerful unsent and fiends can resist being sent. It's why you have to beat them down and then send them. It happens during Lulu's sidequest. Also, I'm sure fiends and powerful unsent are capable of quickly attacking and interrupting a summoner who tries to send them even if the sending is a quick process. After you defeat Seymour, he turns into a cloud of pyreflies and disappears. I guess he teleported away FFT style and he does it again late, but I don't know why he doesn't do that in the final confrontation.
I wonder if Lulu knows the truth about Yevon. When you reach the end of the Cave of the stolen Fayth, you'll fight the former summoner she was supposed to protect. So when she came that far, she must've to the bevelle temple, doesn't she?
So I started playing FFX again to participate with the podcast but I’m quite a bit behind so I just finished the cutscene where Jyscal tried to leave the Farplane and Yuma sends him. I think you guys should watch the cutscene again cause when the camera zooms out you see Yuna pull out her staff and swing it before the camera then quickly cuts to a close up of Yuna finishing the sending with a hand sign. I think there is a bit of abstraction of time there where it skips past the full sending ritual
Simple. Her staff was in the magical backpack where they keep all the battle loots and millions of gil lol And regarding the jumping part I do believe Yuna was using her action to distract Seymour and the guards to buy time for the party. Hence gives Rikku time to throw the flash bomb.
Still watching while I write this but one thing to notice about Seymour is the tattoos. Calling back to early development where it was conceived that tatoos would be some sort of evidence of strength, Seymour is well and truly inked. I think had they kept that concept in, Seymour's stength would have been perceivably amplified given that when he's part of the party he's pretty dry balls.
I do want to copy a comment I made in Episode 5 regarding the young boy who is the Fayth for Bahamut as it's more applicable to this episode: The different versions of the Hymn of the Fayth, with their corresponding voice types, are absolutely meant to represent how the fayth for each aeon are depicted in the game. Valefor and Shiva are both women, Ifrit and Ixion men. The hymn for Bahamut in the Bevelle temple is sung by a young boy which really makes it obvious. However, what's interesting is that the fayth that represents Bahamut is the same young boy that watches over Tidus in Zanarkand. Why is this boy the fayth for Bevelle?? Part of me wonders if this was just narrative convenience on the part of the developers, but we can look at the history of Spira to further rationalize the decision: SPOILERS: In the lore of FFX, during the ancient Machina War, the city of Zanarkand, facing defeat at the hands of Bevelle, was deliberately sacrificed, the fayth summoned Dream Zanarkand, Sin was created, and the teachings of Yevon spread throughout Spira. In modern day Spira, Bahamut's Fayth (the young boy) is, over the course of the game, the one who reveals to Tidus the truth about what he and Zanarkand are (a dream), and asks Tidus to put an end to the dream. Essentially, the boy asks Tidus to metaphorically destroy Zanarkand once more. Casting the boy as Bahamut's Fayth could be one way to emphasize the opposing forces which represent Zanarkand's survival and destruction.
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For the next episode, we'll be playing up through the end of Mt. Gagazet, just after defeating the Sanctuary Keeper and listening to Yuna's final messages to everyone.
Will yall be going over some of the side quests? (I understand that this is a replay for yall so not really spoilers) mainly the omega story line and some weapon quests, I feel the lore from Yuna's celestial weapon is worth it and that involves gathering all Aeons which that too has great story and lore. Just food for thought, love the series!
@@jamescrawford4896 l know this is a year old but im just seeing it now and I hope they went over some chocobo lore as to explain why these big dumb birds are so big and DUMB THAT THEY CAN'T RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE GAHHH
Note on the scene at Bevelle Bridge (around 55:00): Auron pressures Yuna to leave Kimahri behind, saying he's a guardian and will do anything to protect her. She refuses, as does the rest of the party. He smirks and follows them toward Seymour. This ensures Auron that Yuna won't sacrifice one of her friends, not even for the pilgrimage, which is crucial to his plan.
Definitely feels like you're picking up the pace with your analysis here. It's not necessarily wrong, and I really appreciate how you are assessing the flaws of this chapter as narratively this section of the story is all over the place.
I do wish you discussed the romance scene a bit more as it's so abstract that I feel like there's a lot to unpack there. The cinematography and sound design even before they kiss is quite a change of pace from anything we've seen up to this point.
At a glance, we tend to think of kissing or romance in general as a kind of elevating action, whereas here the characters are falling/sinking into the depths of the pyrefly-infused waters. We also know from earlier scenes that this watery substance is what creates spheres which can hold memories or recollections. So, we can interpret this scene as Tidus and Yuna literally and figuratively creating new memories, the countless flecks or shards permeating the water as the memories of the world or the ether in which they exist. Given what we learn about Tidus' origins later in the game (even simply knowing his affinity for Blitzball which takes place in the water) this is also fitting. The position of the two lovers is very symmetrical and yin-yang, the way each touches the face of the other, even the contrasting skin color (FMV Tidus is much darker than game engine Tidus and Yuna is relatively paler). I really am amazed by the sheer amount of shards in the water, it gives the place a very astrological or space-like feel. Interestingly enough the Bevelle high court area also has stars visible in the ceiling, and we also eventually see the same visual imagery at Zanarkand Ruins.
In a larger sense, there is a constant undercurrent of "descent" in this chapter. We first descend from the airship in the skies to the towers of Bevelle to interrupt the wedding, then we go down even further to the temple, and down again into the Via Purifico before emerging to the earthly Spira.
Regarding the awkward story beat where the party first runs away from Seymour and then goes back for Kimahri, it was lazy writing, but gameplay-wise I think the developers wanted to offer players a way to purchase items and grind with more random battles in case they weren't able to defeat Seymour right away.
Thanks for this
It always seemed clear to me that Tidus and Yuna aren't floating through the aether or in some dream metaphor land but explicitly in the lake playing underwater. When Tidus kisses her he's giving her air and she stays with him in his safe underwater enviorment and leaves the surface world behind for a moment.
In 7 the assumption they have sex is because of her reaction afterwards (only if you have a certain affection with her) and that an interview in the Ultimania states it was meant to be more explicit with them both leaving the Chocobo stables.
So while I agree it wasn't meant to be sexual in 10, 7 definitely intended it to be a sexual encounter given you have enough affection with Tifa.
I hope they make that more explicit in the remake.
Chad Fei and Cloud vs Virgin Crono and Squall.
The Italian senate will be pleased.
Instead of leaving the chocobo stables, they'll be leaving the Italian Senate.
I can just imagine Yuna’s staff materialise. Similar to a keyblade from Kingdom Hearts.
It happens in Dissidia but that is a completely different universe.
Or the Royal Arms from FF 15
A quick animation of it materializing just like the keyblade would've gone a long way.
pyreflies dude lol
Look, women have more hidings places than men ok😉?
Regarding Yuna not sending Seymour after the fight against his Natus form; My assumption was that he dissipated into pyreflies upon defeat like a fiend, not leaving a body to be sent, and that his will allowed him to reform some time later. Similarly, I could be convinced that Seymour resists being sent at early points in the story due to his strong will that he can and will become sin.
This has quickly become my favorite podcast series! Final Fantasy X was the most defining game of my childhood and it's incredible to see how much symbolism, allusions, and rhetorical content was packed into the experience. You've earned another subscriber!!
35:43 the first cutscene of FF X-2 really has a big tonal shift that probably had most of the audience with the wrong impression, I really recomend the cutscene that occurs much later, on chapter 4, with the Thousand Words song. That cutscene conveys the tone of the post-sin Spira way better in my opinion. A divided nation with so many factions fighting for power that get to understand each other by listening to the story of fate of two lovers separated by a war that happened during Zanarkand's prime.
Yuna didn't send Seymour during the Natus fight because he had become a fiend and the party killed him. We don't send every random fiend we fight, after all. His will is just so strong that he keeps coming back, and as he absorbs more pyreflies he becomes a more powerful fiend.
That's what it looked like to me when the footage played in this video.
I never realised how bad the logic in the wedding scene was until this video 😂
‘Where did the staff come from?’
It is magic. Like most weapons they just appear.
"Where/how did Yuna get her staff?"
A wizard did it.
She’s summoned her staff back like she’s a key blade master
Dun...du du du du du....du du dud du du du..... with gandalf head bobbing
How does Link carry 999 Ambers, Rubies, and Luminous Stones? *MAGIC* 🪄🦄🧚♂️
A note about music: although you can have “Arranged” versions in the remaster, the original Via Purifico music is solely piano as well. This track likely made it to the piano collections because of how easily translatable it is. What a great track. I always keep the original music for the nostalgia.
That’s something I never thought of; a city that never sleeps. In this way, an active nightlife almost seems like the Sun invading the Moon’s territory - turning the Night into the Day. I don’t know if that’s intentional, but that’s an interesting symbol of Tidus’ Zanarkand being out of balance. A city that never sleeps is a dream that Yuna (the Moon) can’t have; because the things the Sun represents and the things the Moon represents are mutually exclusive, in that an increase in one means a decrease in the other.
Maybe there’s some kind of catch to sending physically manifested fiends? Otherwise Yuna could just send all of the fiends in the random battles. Maybe once they have become physical they must be beaten or weakened to be sent unwillingly. Like how fiends manifest as Pyreflies when defeated.
8:07 it's the same as Vaan having the Dawn Shard materializing on his hands "while handcuffed" !
When you defeat Seymour Natus, it looks like he loses a few pyreflies but the effect they show kinda makes it look like he teleports away... he never actually falls down or disperses.
Rikku did the al bhed equivalent of pocket sand
For some reason after i read your comment i pictured that scene from me, myself and irene where jim carrey is trying to fight that guy who threw the cigarette butt on the ground and he grabs a handfull of dirt and throws it in his face, but he misses completely and hits renee zellwigger instead. I got a good laugh out of it.
Just a note about the duels as a means of "leaving it up to god" in Game of Thrones, the idea of trial by combat is one that I believe existed in the middle ages as well on a similar basis.
I also find it amusing that the characters mention how many summoners stray from/abandon their pilgrimage at the Calm Lands and of course this is the area of the game where you suddenly can do a dozen side quests that can distract you from progressing the story.
Lmao I love that, they all got distracted by training chocobos and rage-quit 🤣
Funny that you mention that, one of my first playthroughs I stopped for that exact reason. Didn't make the connection that I had ended the pilgrimage in the Calm Lands exactly as they said. Clever to put that in the game, haha. Wonder if it was intentional
"Enlightened rule by the dead is preferable to the misguided failures of the living."
Says one of two maesters currently alive in the presence of a known murderer...
Kinoc jinxes, and potentially foreshadows, his own death by inadvertently allowing Seymour to believe he would be happier being dead and remaining as an unsent rather than continuing to be alive.
Seymour would see Kinoc's "beliefs" as justifying his own views on Spira and ultimate plan for everyone.
In defence of the scene between Tifa and Cloud in Final Fantasy 7, it differs depending on how high your affection rate with Tifa is. If it is high enough, Tifa says something along the lines off “words aren’t the only way to show how you feel”, then it cuts to the scene of her lying on Cloud. Then the next day, when the party returns to the Highwind, she breaks down in embarrassment and says “ were you watching”, as opposed to her saying “ were you listening”, when her affection rate is lower. Apparently , the scene was originally going to be more explicit, with the two of them leaving the chocobo farm on the Highwind, and Tifa looks left and right when leaving. So it’s left ambiguous, but it can be inferred that something more happened.
Mike seems very agitated by the potential implication of characters having sex. Don't know why. For one, the games came out at a time when any sexual reference would be perceived as highly controversial and its also never been Final Fantasy's MO when it comes to telling stories. I don't think that eliminates the potential to view both the scenes brought up in discussion as containing allusion to it happening though. I personally always saw the implication being there in both cases (more so if affection was high enough in 7 ) FF runs the full spectrum of human emotion and experience, if there's a few instances of some implied pixelated pounding what harm?
@@grahamwade5932 "Mike seems very agitated by the potential implication of characters having sex."
Not at all. I would have criticized Xenogears for its sex scene if this were the case. I didn't do that because it was contextually and thematically appropriate there.
There is nothing at all from the scene here that indicates Tidus and Yuna had sex. On top of this, Kimahri is standing 10 feet away watching them, which Tidus saw on his way in (you can talk to Kimahri and he points to where Yuna is) and the party is around the corner. It makes no sense whatsoever that they would do that here.
@@ResonantArc Fair point, and no point in me picking up on your point by name. Could have easily addressed the issue without the opening line.
I’ll never look at Seymour’s staff the same way! So cool!! I love these .
I love how they're going on and on about the wedding, and they're completely right! But it's funny because we all know when Mike's head is exploding about the staff manifesting from no where, the rest of us gamers are thinking of Solid Snake keeping a rocket launcher, box, thousands of rounds of ammo for his aresenal of 47 miltiary arms. Just points to his bandana, "infinite ammo". Like Yuna has an inventory of 137 Staves and bangles, thousands of potions and Mix ingredients. But she pulls out the stick up her ass one time and everybody loses her mind! I thought we'd be happy she finally chilled out!
Ok but for real, though. How interesting would it be if Yuna simply confided her plan with Lulu, or Auron, or Kimahri, or the party in general, or ANYONE, and the whole time the plan WAS to get her her Staff during the ceremony? And then play the reverse uno card gambits back and forth until the outcome in the game? IT would make too much sense, right!?
This makes more sense. Its like this whole portion was rewritten
Consistently one of the best things to look forward to every Wednesday. I love the videogame book club concept and have been watching every upload since Nier. I know that Mike isn't too hot on the direction that Xenoblade 2 took but I was wondering if you guys ever plan to play through Xenoblade 1 for State Of The Arc? It's still easily one of my favorite JRPGs of all time and I'd love to do a third playthrough along with the podcast at some point.
Keep up the awesome work and also congrats on breaching the 3k goal on Patreon! Well earned.
Actually that scene in FF7 you're referencing under the highwind with Cloud and Tifa was confirmed that they had sex in the Ultimania by the creators.
"Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs)."
This sounds like originally there was a sex scene planned for that moment, but they cut it out due to ratings/approval issue. So all that is left over is the "risqué line of dialogue" that implies they might have done something more than just talk.
But it doesn't really confirm that they had sex when that scene fades to black. It was left ambiguous. They could have just kissed or cuddled or whatever.
Even Tifa's "You were watching?" moment afterwards could have been embarrassment of the others seeing her and Cloud kiss each other.
*Shrug*
@@dudemcguy1227 Except for the fact that the creator's intent was the original scene and they just toned down the visual impact of the scene for ratings sake, doesn't negate that the creator's intent was that Cloud and Tifa have sex in that scene.
Really good point on Bevelle. Never really realized it before on any other play through because I was so caught up in the action of it all. Stepping back though and listening to this.. it doesn’t make much sense 😂 only sense I can make is the party has no real plan to rescue Yuna and emotions are so high. Typically, in these sort of situations our judgment is clouded. I think the Squaresoft team banked on everyone being so invested in the action on screen, logic got thrown out the window. And I think overall that it worked lol. I also am curious if Seymour’s plan to become the final aeon would have worked. Yunalesca says the summoner and guardian need this unbreakable bond. They clearly don’t have that “married” or not lol.
The Calm Lands are so similar to the Archylte Steppe that, considering FF13 was originally being developed for PS2, I’m willing to bet Pulse originally had reused a ton of Calm Land in-game assets. Either way, I loved each area respectively.
While there's no indication of this,
My logic had always been that to be sent the way Jyskal was, it requires the one being sent to be /willing/.
Otherwise, Yuna would have to do the whole sending ritual dance.
The staff came from the inventory.... wherever that is ;)
I think the cover your eyes and Seymour not covering his eyes kinda makes sense. I've experienced something like this happen but instead of shouting 'Cover your eyes' someone shouted 'run!' and a number of people didn't run and just looked around trying to see what is going on. I guess that is basically the same idea since Seymour isn't looking when Rikku threw the flashbang.
10/10 great episode.
I'm months late to this episode, had it on while I re-caulked my shower lol. I've seen other people post about this but didn't see anyone post the exact excerpt but while I never for one second thought the Tidus/Yuna scene involved sex, the FF7 scene absolutely 100% does since Tifa's dialogue changes if you have enough affection points with her. With low affection points, Tifa returns to the Highwind and sees everybody there and says the line "You were listening???!". If you have high affection, her line is changed to "You were watching???!" and she collapses to the floor 😂
Exactly! If you were team Tifa the whole game then cloud and Tifa definitely have sex. The way Mike was so condescending and dismissive about it lost him a lot of points in my book. Someone clearly didn't understand the game he played. 🙄
I'm getting caught up on these a few weeks late, but I was curious if I'm the only one that is reminded a lot of Valefor, looking at the Guardian Wyrm Evrae's design? A similar color palette, the sort of hook shapes of it's spines, and just the general weird-dragon-but-weird vibe. I've always been really fascinated by Valefor's design and this is the closest thing that feels like a connection: two different beasts protecting Yuna, one given to her by the Fayth and one of the church, like a corrupted version of Valefor, being sent to keep her friends away.
So with the weapon thing, I can understand the confusion with where it came from but like one person said it could be that they materialize the weapon. You can make the same argument for the opening part of the game where auron gave tidus his weapon. Could this man really be holding 2 swords in his cape?? It’s possible but 🤷♂️. I like to think the weapons are summoned onto the person or they probably shrink the weapons then make it grow normal size when needed in battle
A few things on the wedding scene. Firstly, I feel at this stage Yuna is only trying to fight Seymour. She is still seeking peace with Yevon. So when Mica interjects, it's with the force and authority of Yevon. I'd also say that there is a correlation between the complexity of the Sending ritual and the unwillingness of the spirit to be sent. Jyskal wanted to be sent, having delivered his sphere, so that was easy. The Kilika sending was of a lot of people unfairly killed for no good reason - you'd have to imagine they would be full of resentment so it takes a strong Sending to get them to the Farplane. Sending Seymour would be on the difficult side - I don't think she could do it on a whim.
Secondly, Rikku's flashbomb. I'd have to check, but I think one of her "Mix" overdrives would achieve the same effect. So this would explain why it was used the way it was. She doesn't have a flashbomb on her person, she has to make it. This takes time so she needed another distraction from Yuna to get attention (and gun barrels) away from her. It also explains why the party reacted correctly to her warning because they've gotten used to her combat style, whereas the warrior monks would not know what to do.
I have no idea about the staff. Maybe it was carried by one of her attendants, and it would have been used as a prop for the wedding? Heck of a stretch I know...
I really like the 2nd fight against Evrae in the underwater section of the Via Purifico. This time Evrae has the zombie status effect and you can "purify" him with phoenix downs. It fits the narrative well. Also you can win this fight super easy that way :P
I think it says a lot about Auron’s character that despite everything, he still considers Kinoc his friend.
"Luke, your father was a dick"
I remember specifically the wire jumping scene in tv ads and such when I was a kid and thinking how cool that was. No wonder GameCube didn't stand a chance when these came out around same time.
I think massive parts of Bevelle were changed during development. Not only can you see a save sphere in a cutscene that you never actually get a chance to use, so much of the game’s story structure here makes little sense.
I think since they had some assets of the area that needed to be used, they had to work around the changes the best they could and that’s why you have background/rooms you only see once and never again.
In the Dissidia games, their weapons materialize from thin air. That was the headcanon as to why weapons suddenly appear in past FF games.
Regarding that brief mention of the Cloud/Tifa Under the Highwind scene I just wanted to clear some things up because the way they describe it is kind of wrong. The argument against Cloud and Tifa having sex was that they were in the same position before and after during the fades to black and that’s just not how the scene went down. It’s definitely more obvious in Tifa’s high affection scene but in both the cuddling happens only after the fade to black. Some strong points that for them having sex.
1. Tifa says before the camera pans upwards and fades to black “Words aren’t the only way to tell someone how you’re feeling” is about as obvious you can get using film language.
2. When they return to the high wind when Tifa find outs Cid and the others watched them she’s falls to the floor absolutely mortified which is kind of a weird reaction if they were just cuddling.
3. This has more to do with the original version of the scene. But the idea was that it would take place the morning after and Cloud and Tifa emerge from the Chocobo Stables. Tifa asks if she thinks anyone saw them and Cloud respond Well the Chocobos did. Which is about as obvious you can get without outright saying it.
I finally just checked out y’all’s Patreon. The levels are “Beast”, “Beastara”, and “Beastaga”. Y’all got me 😂💀. I’ll sign up now.
What if, while Yuna was jumping from the Bevelle Temple, Valefor was currently busy somewhere else? LIke, Belgemine was giving some other brand-new summoner her battle tutorial, and she already had Valefor out. Yuna would just be seriously hosed. :V
Cool thought, but every Summoner can summon their own set of summons. Otherwise it wouldn`t make sense, have multiple summoners runnig around, if everyone would only exist one time in this world.
Always a weekly highlight. I really like the theming with the studio screens for each game you tackle, very immersive and I hope you keep that up
I always just assumed sending Seymour would be pointless, as his attachment to this world, and his goal of becoming Sin would just allow him to return as his father did. I feel like after the party truly defeats Sin he would have no reason to return and could finally rest in the Farplane.
46:50 the short scene with Seymour, Kinoc and Micah is one of my favorites because of how villainous and cheesy the priests act when they drop their masks around each other; it’s like 3 palpatines trying to outdo each other
Thematically, the Calm Lands opening up right at the same time Yuna’s world does really works. She can do anything now. It’s not just a narrow hallway she’s forced to walk down.
Great intro again, I'm crying with laughter. Seymour is definitely going to need a Curaga spell for his eyes after that one. Or maybe eye Drops?
In my opinion Seymour became a fiend as he absorbed the others. I think there is a distinction between an unsent and fiend (like stage 1, stage 2), Lulu explained it somewhere. At the end of the battle Semour (his pyreflies) just fled, I guess. The following is a SPOILER:
When you defeat him within SIn he has nowhere to go, so Yuna could finally sent him at that point.
I always thought that Yuna jumping from the tower was a last minute decision, not a planned one. I think she originally planned to send Seymour, and because she isn't aware about how deep the corruption of the Maester's go, she expected everyone to be surprised that he was dead. I honestly don't believe she expected to meet opposition from anyone else. I could totally be wrong though.
As for the flash bomb, I feel like Seymour didn't even register Rikku's warning because he was too stunned by Yuna's jump, but he could just be an idiot.
Thanks for your time!
Kinoc doesn’t get sent, he comes back in the underground Bevelle temple Dungeon in X-2 as an Unsent. And is a pain to beat if I recall right.
It also looks as though in the scene when Seymour takes on his Natus form in Bevelle, pyreflies from Kinoc and the other soldiers are absorbed into him. I always just assumed he had become a part of Seymour's Mortibody.
So maybe he only was able to become his own independent unsent after Seymour was destroyed for the final time.
Great episode this week guys! Firstly, I was wondering if either of you caught that there's some kind of message inscribed on the floor of Tidus and Auron's cell when they are imprisoned before the trial, I'm not sure if it's yevon script or something else, but I've never heard anyone talk about it. Secondly, I'm not sure if it was on purpose but Casen referring to Yuna's personality as "blooming" reminds me of what he said in previous episodes about Yuna being associated with the hibiscus flower. She's beginning to finally bloom, but now the pilgrimage is nearly over, and that bloom is going to be short lived just like the hibiscus. Have a good week guys!
The gang skating on the cables was the first imagery I saw from this game, and I immediately went “Gimme Gimme Gimme!”
As you guys talk about Wakka’s journey, I end up thinking about a JRPG called Infinite Undiscovery. Don’t both with it, the game’s as good as it’s name. But I vividly remember there being a Priest character in your party, and inevitably the game ends as Friendship vs God trope. When the false God reveals himself to be Demiurge-like, the Priest guy shrugs and says “oh well that’s my religion a lie.” Calm as a cucumber. No crisis of faith, nothing. So while FFX can be criticised for some stuff, Wakka’s cognitive dissonance in the face of his faith turning out to be not what he thought is pretty well considered.
And yeah, I thought the scene with Yuna and Tidus was an abstract representation of them making love or whatever. I ain’t into shipping or wanting to see two CGI models stepping up to get down, but I can only calls it how I see it. Then again, considering how weird the story is at times, they could literally be floating about. Either way, I hope Kimari read a book or something while it was happening
Ahhh the music was SO GOOD in the Via Purifico! Gave me chills as a 10 year old playing for the first time.
i appreciate you guys so much! thank you for the continued coverage of this game and giving us some great laughs! the comedy is so great when the days are getting tough xD you 2 are the best!
1:11:30 There is actually an English Language version of Sudeki Da Ne on the Distant Worlds album. I quite like it.
The game itself however only features the original Japanese lyrics, even in the International and European versions
Reminding me how much I loved this game back when it came out. I didn't care for 9 that much, just couldn't get invested in the characters or story, except Vivi.
And you guys are right about how this game handled romance. It felt more genuine. Like it came from a place of friendship, loyalty, and love rather than a convenient paring or because the game wants it to happen. I think that's a much more mature and realistic way to convey a meaningful relationship, and FF10 does that very well.
I can't help but consider the Mass Effect games, where it's all down to dialogue options. You can bench a romance character the entire game and never experience life with them, but still romance them. The game dialogue doesn't change to reflect what experiences you've shared, just what options you've chosen. While that does give the player room to choose and play their own way, it just doesn't feel as real.
Strangely, the biggest exception to this is romancing Jack. She's this hard and hateful victim of monstrous experiments, and as you get closer to her, she opens up little by little. The final scene of the romance with her is less carnal, and shows just how sensitive she really is deep down. Just seems more real and sweet than most.
There is no making that scene better. This is where the wheels starting coming off of the story for me every time.
I feel they come off for that section, then are solidly back on for the rest of the game.
The scene in Macalania Woods is fantastic, and Zanarkand is the narrative peak of the game imo.
The part of the execution reminded me of the reason why the different Inquisitions throughout Europe used only certain methods of execution: "the Church abhors blood" they said, quite cynically.
This is related to Via Purifico: the execution by being burnt at the stake doubled as a way to avoid blood being shed and also as a way to purification, since they believed fire had that property.
Ah, suffering, my favorite subject, and that of every Russian soul. Dostoevsky fills out tomes upon tomes meditating on the question:
"And why are you so firmly, so triumphantly, convinced that only the normal and the positive--in other words, only what is conducive to welfare--is for the advantage of man? Is not reason in error as regards advantage? Does not man, perhaps, love something besides well-being? Perhaps he is just as fond of suffering? Perhaps suffering is just as great a benefit to him as well-being? Man is sometimes extraordinarily, passionately, in love with suffering, and that is a fact."
"And yet I am convinced that man will never give up true suffering- that is, destruction and chaos. Why, suffering is the sole root of consciousness."
"And, indeed, I will at this point ask an idle question on my own account: which is better - cheap happiness or exalted sufferings? Well, which is better?"
"I drink because I wish to multiply my sufferings!"
Not just Nietzsche but many philosophers of the Far East assert that "life is suffering." Casen mentions the Cycle of Samsara earlier. The alternative to Samsara (Dukkha) is the achievement of Nirvana (Moksha) - the release from the karmic cycle of death and rebirth by knowledge of the true-self, the jettisoning of all attachments, cravings and desires. It is said that attachment/passion/desire is the source of suffering, and liberation from such is liberation from suffering. Attachment to life is attachment to suffering, and it is that attachment to life itself which keeps a soul within the cycle of death and rebirth. Seymour's motive of forcibly ending suffering and therefore the cycle of rebirth by simply forcing death on everyone is a bit of a cliche but its also a rationalization for any egomaniac with a messiah complex. It's the logic of a SUICIDE CULT. It makes a degree of sense, but only on the surface. One does not achieve nirvana en-masse, however. One cannot force others to let go of attachment to their own lives. The karmic cycle cannot be broken by omnicide -- omnicide is in fact impossible. Man is *fond* of suffering. He will *be* reborn if you simply kill him. One must choose to let go of attachments himself to achieve liberation from the cycle. In effect -- one much *choose* to leave it behind -- one must *send himself* to Nirvana. The reason Seymore couldn't succeed in liberating Spira *from* suffering by *imposing* death *in-universe* is because he not only has to *kill* everyone, but *send* everyone. He hasn't even liberated himself from his sufferings -- he is *unsent* himself. This is the problem with viewing suffering as a negative -- suffering is at the essence of the human experience (and I'd point out to Mike that there is subtlety to even positive emotions - joy, love, etc. -- these too are forms of suffering. As Dostoevsky says elsewhere - "to LOVE is to SUFFER and there can be NO LOVE otherwise"). The goal of wiping out suffering while existing within the karmic cycle of suffering cannot be achieved. In order to overcome suffering one must overcome life itself - one must no longer live at all to be rid of it. How could someone who refuses to let go of life, therefore, end suffering for anyone else? The bottom line is - Seymoure is doomed to failure even if he succeeds. He will perpetuate the cycle by becoming Sin. Just like every other time it happened. His true goal isn't an end to suffering -- but just like everyone else in the Yevon Hierarchy, it's simple Self-Elevation within the confines of the karmic cycle. He is an agent of False Enlightenment, a False Buddha -- an Anti-christ, even -- he is in love with his own suffering, and his actions will only create more suffering. If he wanted to do what he says he wants to do, not only would he not pursue becoming Sin, he'd just go to the Farplane, where suffering no longer exists, and be pyreflies. The party's goal is the truth way out of the Cycle -- by teaching people to let go of their attachment to Yevon, to Life As Suffering, and embrace what lies beyond -- by Sending Yevon, and all life when its time comes, to the Farplane.
honestly its p deep i like it.
final dostoevsky quote to summarize yuna's attitude vs. seymour's:
"A true friend of mankind whose heart has but once quivered in compassion over the sufferings of the people, will understand and forgive all the impassable alluvial filth in which they are submerged, and will be able to discover the diamonds in the filth."
I totally get the criticisms with respect to the staff coming out of nowhere. With respect to the general scene however, I’ve always read it as a fluid situation. Yuna fears for her friends and tries to divert all the attention to herself. The game effectively highlights this by the amazing FMV with her falling back and summoning Valefor to catch her. By drawing all the attention to herself, she allows her comrades a moment to use this opening and escape. Of course, the party is likely too worried that Yuna might die to be formulating spur of the moment plans to escape, which is why she tries to reassure them. Once the party knows she’s good, Rikku thinks of something quickly. This is essentially how the scene plays out and I never thought it was too dissatisfying. There was no guarantee it would allow them enough time to think of something, but as you say, it gives us a more emotionally packed scene, and in a fluid situation like that there are no guarantees. She trusts her friends will think of something with the opening she has granted them. Also, there would be no guarantee they’d be ushered to safety by any Yevonites either. It’s a bold move but I think it makes sense and makes for quite a moment (albeit with some goofy elements like Rikku’s warning).
The parts of Bevelle that are harder to defend concern splitting your party into those who can and can’t swim and placing them into separate totally escape or dungeons. Like, what? Lol.
Re: the swimming thing, I feel the implication is that they were all thrown into the same place, but the ones who aren't elite swimmers are flushed down into where they end up, while T/W/R can actually fight the current and take what's effectively a shortcut that doesn't even go past Isaaru who was meant to be all their executioner.
@@Karifean That’s an interesting theory I have not heard, but I wonder what we are to make of Evrae Altana, who I always read as T/R/W’s executioner. Perhaps they’ve set it up that no matter if you can swim or not, you’ll be executed either way? To me there’s a simpler explanation: they prioritized gameplay over story because they thought it would be more interesting to split the party. Who knows. Despite a weak story moment, I still think FFX has one of the strongest stories in the series so I don’t let it get me down too much. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@@landonech I think the zombie Evrae Altana is the dead Evrae we just fought falling from the sky down below into the waters and also being flushed into these sewers. A convenient coincidence, basically.
@@Karifean I like it.
The staff situation is pretty simple. She went into her menu and equipped it.
No yeah they totally banged, Cloud and Tifa too while we’re on the subject. Hahahahaha ahhhh sorry I’m just cracking myself up. Definitely an emotional release and an inspiring and motivating experience. To share a kiss 💗.
I think they don't remember tidus did that against his dad too. He draws it out of the mallet space. That is where I learned about it.
My favorite thing about the trial and imprisonment is they coincidently picked the 3 members who can live underwater for the water prison.
The way I interpreted the ledge jump scene was that Yuna removed herself from danger so the party could fight Seymour and the temple guards or flee without risk of her becoming a hostage, but that could be entirely wrong.
That kinda is the entire dichotomy, huh? Good read.
This. Yuna is strong willed but she knows her strength physically
But they wouldn't need to fight the guards and flee if they had just left when she bought them an opportunity to do so.
56:55 Looks like Seymour disappeared. There wasn't a body to send from the looks of it.
Might I just point out, Auron here clearly describes the "Spiral" of death. Where else do we see spirals - in the eyes of the Al Bhed, the only faction willing to challenge the spiral of death. Interesting, and possibly symbolic, that the spiral is in their eyes, eluding that they are the ones who see the Spiral of death for what it truly is, while the rest of Spira does not see it.
I would unironically love to see a series on X-2. Also it would be way shorter
I don't know how many people have noticed this but the scene with Yuna and Tidus at the lake resembles a scene from the movie The Beach with Leonardo DiCaprio, which came out around the same time.
They could have fixed that entire wedding scene by having the party flee to a spot where they can still see the platform where the marriage was taking place. They'd be away from trouble but also be able to see Yuna fall
This is my favorite story in any game and one of my favorites in all of fiction but you guys were spot on with the wedding scene. If it wasn't for the execution being so poor, I would have no major complaints with the narrative.
Same. I still love the action and tension of this scene, but it could've definitely be handled better
Absolutely loving this series Mike and Casen! Lots of great analysis as always, but I also think you've really hit your stride with these podcasts (across the board - pacing, conveying ideas, bouncing off of each other, etc.) =D
Lots of great points on the wedding sequence that I'd never thought of! **BUT** I would say that one thing which does make it effective despite this is the player's role in the sequence. The story does a good job of making the player really *want* to save Yuna, and then forces you to fight your way up the stairs, through quite a few enemies to reach her, while the tense music plays. While it's hokey pausing to fight so many enemies, I think it compliments the emotions of the sequence very well, and makes the player earn the rescue - reaching the top yourself feels more significant than Rikku just throwing a flash grenade in a cutscene, for example. But there are plenty of issues with the following scenes (which are now very clear to me haha).
I'm not a shipper, but I've always seen the Macalania Woods sequence as a visual representation of Tidus and Yuna's newfound sense of oneness. So, as I've gotten older (I played the game as a kid for the first time), I felt was a really beautiful way of representing them having sex in a game that naturally wouldn't ever show that explicitly. So I respectfully disagree that it's definitively *not* that. And given later events, I quite like the thought that they had this one intimate night. Regardless, it's very sweet =)
As others have pointed out, though, VII's intimate scene is definitely intended to be sexual (via dialogue and at least one interview I've seen) - assuming your affection values with Tifa are high enough =P
0:27:25 Every symbol is backwards in the stained glass, so I would assume you're supposed to read it from the outside looking in.
Even with this knowledge, the symbols/letters are seemingly random even when you read them backwards.
If you ever switch weapons or armor during battle, you see that said weapon or amor disappears and the new one materialize in its place. That makes me believe that they can make their weapons appear or disappear at will. Would explain why in a lot of cut scenes they seem to be without a weapon, but then suddenly be ready to fight. As why it seems like she pulled it from behind, she was trying to be sneaky sneaky about it.
Final Fantasy X did its best to make Soaps look cool in the wedding scene, and honestly? It kinda works.
8:28 Yuna pulled her staff out of the same pocket dimension that they normally store their weapons and inventory. Like, this is just a thing in all Final Fantasy games that is never explained. FFVIII in particular has multiple scenes where Squall just pulls his 4-foot long gunblade seemingly out of his butt. Your party has three tons of various spheres, weapons, shields, and other random items that can be accessed by the entire group at any time. A few games in the series attempt to actually have some kind of half explanation for your (always gigantic) equipped weapon appearing when needed (mostly in XV) but none of them ever explain how you can carry around 800 different pieces of equipment everywhere you go.
It really is just a thing where you gotta just shrug and say whatever. In FF games everyone can materialize their weapon from nowhere. Best not to think about it too much.
10:00 The problem w/ Yuna's plan is if our party didn't show up the Bevelle guards just would have simply shot her on Mika's command instead of being able to threaten us.
I think I know how the Yuna marriage scene came about. Nomura or Kitase (probably the former) came into the scene with an idea of what should happen, and then told Nojima to write it up that way. Nojima probably said "uh, doesn't that ruin Yuna's leverage? And where does she get the staff?" But the directors told him to do it anyway. I say this because I have been in writer's meetings like these, where I am explaining to a client why a certain plot point is cool, but doesn't work with the logic of the world and/or hurts one of the next plot points we're planning to deploy. Usually, my clients will see the problem. They might not always like the solution, but they usually don't just power through and say "do it anyway." But Nomura is definitely a "it's about the feelings!" kind of guy, plot points be damned. To be fair to him, it's a strategy that has not hurt his career.
I honestly like when you guys point out the flaws in the game. There are quite a few and I think there is a tendency in this level of analysis to be overly positive (because most of the audience love the game already) so the flaws are given a pass. But being able to point out the flaws makes the flattering more authentic.
The thing is, this is the first section that has big issues, as long as you're aware of what is actually happening and not just going "Ha, meme!" The story overall is very tight, and all of the overarching themes help an immense amount in building replayability and it's staying power.
The way she got her staff out reminded me of how WonderWoman got her sword out in one of the newer movies haha
14:45 The sequence of events was a total fly-by-seat sequence.
It’s not all pre-planned and agreed upon, it just happened that way
They show that powerful unsent and fiends can resist being sent. It's why you have to beat them down and then send them. It happens during Lulu's sidequest. Also, I'm sure fiends and powerful unsent are capable of quickly attacking and interrupting a summoner who tries to send them even if the sending is a quick process. After you defeat Seymour, he turns into a cloud of pyreflies and disappears. I guess he teleported away FFT style and he does it again late, but I don't know why he doesn't do that in the final confrontation.
I'm a bit surprised that Casen wasn't tempted to decipher the test under Tidus
( When he's in the cage with Auron ) 😉
I wonder if Lulu knows the truth about Yevon. When you reach the end of the Cave of the stolen Fayth, you'll fight the former summoner she was supposed to protect. So when she came that far, she must've to the bevelle temple, doesn't she?
I always love the opening/preview of the podcast lol
So I started playing FFX again to participate with the podcast but I’m quite a bit behind so I just finished the cutscene where Jyscal tried to leave the Farplane and Yuma sends him. I think you guys should watch the cutscene again cause when the camera zooms out you see Yuna pull out her staff and swing it before the camera then quickly cuts to a close up of Yuna finishing the sending with a hand sign. I think there is a bit of abstraction of time there where it skips past the full sending ritual
Simple. Her staff was in the magical backpack where they keep all the battle loots and millions of gil lol
And regarding the jumping part I do believe Yuna was using her action to distract Seymour and the guards to buy time for the party. Hence gives Rikku time to throw the flash bomb.
Still watching while I write this but one thing to notice about Seymour is the tattoos. Calling back to early development where it was conceived that tatoos would be some sort of evidence of strength, Seymour is well and truly inked. I think had they kept that concept in, Seymour's stength would have been perceivably amplified given that when he's part of the party he's pretty dry balls.
24:18 Kinnoc performs the Spira Spiral, thus enhancing the themes of the narrative
This might be a stretch, but Seymour’s hair kind of resembles the Bevelle layout too. The Jecht/Zanarkand symbol as well, but that is more jagged.
why is this game so freaking beautiful oh my god
24:17 Kinoc, the master of movement. he had to get his rank somehow. XD
Wow I forgot how good the pacing of this game was. Seeing the videos, with the plot holes and everything, it feels like a well told story.
The staff came from the same place that the party keeps all 100 potions, pheonix downs, ethers, antidotes, weapons, armor, spheres, etc. Their ass.
Whoever wrote wonder woman, must be an ffx fan. The staff scene is like the sword dress in wonder woman
I do want to copy a comment I made in Episode 5 regarding the young boy who is the Fayth for Bahamut as it's more applicable to this episode:
The different versions of the Hymn of the Fayth, with their corresponding voice types, are absolutely meant to represent how the fayth for each aeon are depicted in the game. Valefor and Shiva are both women, Ifrit and Ixion men. The hymn for Bahamut in the Bevelle temple is sung by a young boy which really makes it obvious.
However, what's interesting is that the fayth that represents Bahamut is the same young boy that watches over Tidus in Zanarkand. Why is this boy the fayth for Bevelle?? Part of me wonders if this was just narrative convenience on the part of the developers, but we can look at the history of Spira to further rationalize the decision:
SPOILERS:
In the lore of FFX, during the ancient Machina War, the city of Zanarkand, facing defeat at the hands of Bevelle, was deliberately sacrificed, the fayth summoned Dream Zanarkand, Sin was created, and the teachings of Yevon spread throughout Spira.
In modern day Spira, Bahamut's Fayth (the young boy) is, over the course of the game, the one who reveals to Tidus the truth about what he and Zanarkand are (a dream), and asks Tidus to put an end to the dream. Essentially, the boy asks Tidus to metaphorically destroy Zanarkand once more. Casting the boy as Bahamut's Fayth could be one way to emphasize the opposing forces which represent Zanarkand's survival and destruction.
She got her staff from Rin's Telescoping Sticks Emporium.
“Death, then.
….by exile.”
Yuna's change of after that scene might also be because that likely was her first kiss.