Remembering Ayrton Senna, Adrian Newey's future and the problem with EVs | Ti podcast 210
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- Опубліковано 5 тра 2024
- Dan Prosser and Andrew Frankel pay tribute to Ayrton Senna 30 years on from his tragic passing. They also speculate on F1 design superstar Adrian Newey's future after it was confirmed he was leaving Red Bull Racing, and discuss the advantages and drawbacks of electric vehicles.
Dan and Andrew talk about the latest Sunday Scramble at Bicester Heritage too, where The Intercooler displayed all four McLaren Ultimate Series hypercars alongside a McLaren F1.
#f1 #ayrtonsenna #adriannewey
This is episode 210 of The Intercooler podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.
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I thoroughly enjoyed this thank you gentlemen. Very stimulating car conversation 👏🏼
My only real problem with EV's is the same problem with modern cars in general. They're privacy nightmares. I like the idea of an EV. I like the idea of a simple car without a million computers that isn't tracking and reporting everything back to my insurer or whoever else wants to buy that data.
Great podcast, very well done
Regarding the Alpine, I think £200,000 could be justified if it has things like magnesium suspension components, carbon fibre wheels and input from the Renault Formula One experts for the engine. I’d be happy with that level of substance.
If you guys get a chance to test the Ioniq 5 N I’d love to hear your thoughts, is this the way forward for fun and involving EVs? Essentially by offering 90% of the sensory from an ICE vehicle.
Audio off again. Please review.
How about 80s B group rally legends? Quattro S1 , Delta S4 , 6R4, RS200 & a T16 🤩
Firstly, thanks for an excellent podcast. The last news item about the Alpine 110’s demise took me by surprise. The idea that its days are numbered, so early, suggests to me Renault’s rebranding of their F1 team to promote it has failed miserably. In parallel with the F1 team itself. The top management at Renault, like other OEMs before them, have not a clue about the culture of F1 engineering and management and making self destructive decisions. F1 does not seem to be appropriate to the promotion of an SUV assuming that is still in the product plan. Closure seems a strong likelihood. What are your thoughts?
Lightest cars please, especially lightest of the last 30 years
Here's the thing that immediately struck me when legislation in favour of EVs was first floated: they always get it wrong.
Back in the 90s, governments mandated catalytic converters to improve air quality. They were warned that cats would create a CO2 problem, but they ignored those warnings.
A decade later, they realised there was a CO2 problem and legislated in favour of diesel. They were warned that would create an air quality problem, but they ignored those warnings.
15 years later, they realised there was an air quality problem and so legislated in favour of EVs. Which you've numerated just some of the problems of.
It also looks like the EU has realised it screwed up with WLTP, with isn't anything like as representative as it was supposed to be. Then there's the mess over Euro 7, the latest safety rules that rely on expensive unproven tech, and the cyber security rules that have consigned several cars to an early grave.
Every time legislators get it wrong, the manufacturers have to clear up the mess, and consumers suffer as a result.
What are the chances they'll ever learn?
What's WLTP?
@@RAW555R the current fuel economy testing regime
I consider it the other way around, most people want the legislation, want the target reached as politicians want to be reelected. In the car community as with any group there are people who view any rules or restrictions as wrong or invasive. Our local Jag/Daimler/Lanchester owners club in NZ compiled a list of Leaded fuel petrol stations in their newsletter in the 90's. Even offering airport 100LL by the barrel at group meets as these were being phased out, it was madness. I don't want to own a classic car unless I can fit fuel injection and a Cat simply because I don't want the hassle of carbs and ethanol degradation. I have a Twizy with a Mitsi PHEV diff in it, 100hp that we built the coolant management system from experience with turbo charging cars. I learnt to build the app with my kids that preheats/cools the Twizy system and I want to build this into my stupid cars so they are running better when I get in. As for the charge points, given that we used to have parking meters where you put coins in and twist, there are some villages in Britain where they haven't repaired the holes in the pavement since that happened. I don't view Britain as a country where change is greeted positively even when it could be an improvement in your quality of life or those around you.
Er, the reason you can't buy a Fiesta is nothing to do with anything being "forced" on anyone. The reason you won't be able to buy a fiesta is, surprise suprise, because actual buyers don;t want one, they want SUVs!
The good news, is that because BEVS are pretty much body style(platform) agnostic, and unlike with ICE, with BEV you don't need to do a a massive costly Emissions and OBD recal and reCert/reHom for any model where you change anything, the future opportunities for OEs to develop more niche (less popular lower volume) models is actually much greater. The A110 is being killed for the simple reason they a haven't sold enough to make any money on it! BEVs change that completely!
wasn't the fiesta still one of the best selling cars in the UK when it died?
I think because Ayrton died people have evangelicalised him like the 2nd coming of Christ and it's easier to talk about a dead person of the past than the present.
he was seen that way before death though
I would disagree. He always assumed anyone who beat him had a bent engine. A young Benneton driver beat him in '94 in Brazil and only he thought it was cheating. So many people leaned into this idea that he was better and not the combination of people around them. He also failed to transfer this into other areas or seamlessly to other teams.
@@fraserwright9482 Benetton was cheating in 94 tho.
Maybe not technically due to a loophole; but Ayrton was right about Benetton having TC.
@@tom.mWas the McLaren a dog? I don't disagree that everyone was cheating, but the idea that only his team wasn't and he just happened to be gifted is not something I can hold as gospel. I look at Loeb's dominance in WRC as a fairer measurement of skill even if F1 has more providence in the eyes of some.
BEV sales have fallen?
1) no they haven't, world wide BEV sales are higher than ever in absolute terms
2) ALL new car sales have fallen, ie people,e specially private car buyers rather than companies, are just not buying as many new cars as they did, and when you look at the numbers, the ONLY segment to actually be increasing in volume in the current market is actually BEV.
Why are private buyers not buying as many new cars? For me it's pretty obvious:
New cars are better, more reliable and more expensive than ever and have reached near 100% maturity. For years a significant number of private buyers bought a new car every 3 years, not because they needed one, but because they could afford one and wanted the latest thing. This is especially true in developed markets like the Uk where fashion is the primary driver for new car sales rather than actual need. Today, our finanical future is less clear, higher interest rates and greater uncertainty means more people will just bank any spare cash and an increasing cost of finance (few people buy cars with cash any more) means the cost to "trade up" is vastly higher in real terms than say 5 to 8 years ago.
And what do you get for all that extra outlay? For most people lets be honest, not a lot. Modern cars are fast enough, quiet enough, smooth enough and reliable enough and have been for at least 20 years now. Buying a new car as a private car buyer is no longer any thing to do with "getting a better car" and everything to do with "being seen with a new car".
It also must be said, that private car buyers are incredibly conservative, and for most, an "electric car" is just too new to thing about and critically, there is now such a weight of FUD in every social media and conventional media arena to actually put people off, despite that FUD being demonstrably untruthful. From "EVs all catch fire" to "they are so heavy there gravity attracts meteorites that will crash in to the earth and wipe us out" - ok, i made that last one up.... ;-) private cars buyers are mostly not yet actually in any position to make a rational choice and so are simply sticking with what they know.
BUT, this is changing, slowly, as more and more people experience BEVs, directly and indirectly, they are comming to actual understand they are not the devil, they are just a slightly different way to make a car move down the road, and that this way is actually preferable, comes with huge advantages, and suprisingly little change is required to leverage those gains.
Some actual facts for you on private cars:
1) The proportion of households without a car fell from 48% in 1971 to 22% in 2022. In 1985 to 1986, there were 8 cars for every 10 households in Great Britain; in 2022 there were 12 cars for every 10 households in England. (DATA from 2022 national census)
2) There have been long-term increases in the proportion of households with access to more than one car since 1971, with 34% of households having two or more cars in 2022 compared to 8% in 1971 (Census data)
3) 8 out of 10 UK drivers have access to at least two cars. (Insurance industry statistical analysis from insurance records by LV 2021)
4) The estimated average annual mileage per car in England has decreased as the number of cars per household has risen, falling from around 9,200 miles in 2002 to 6,600 miles in 2022.
5) The average distance a new electric car coming to the market for the first time in 2023 can travel on a single charge is almost 300 miles, new analysis suggests. (SMMT figures for march 2023 based on offical certification results)
6) The charging infrastructure nearly doubled in 2023 Last year, the EV charging infrastructure across the UK expanded by 43% year-over-year (Government figures to march 2023)
7) Planning and strategy is already in place to continue to improve the public chargeing network, with a "ten fold" improvement by 2030 targetted (Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Strategy, 2023)
Suggesting that a BEV is in anway a "minority interest" and that somehow you need 2 cars and a private drive to be able to buy one is, i'm sorry to say, an extremely outdated viewpoint that is simply not supported by actually demonstable data and facts!
IMO, there is just one honest, real, and totally valid reason not to buy a BEV, and that is really just "i just don't want one". If you don't want one, don't get one, but lets not make up a load of invalid reasons to not get one.......
But wait…..there’s more!
Claiming to be "not anti-EV" and then spreading some FUD about EVs isn't a great look imo, sorry!
1) "EVs don't suit the majority"
er, i think you've got that the wrong way around. The vast majority of private car buyers, who buy, normal, mostly very boring, mid sized passenger cars and who drive on average 20 miles or less a day, are prefectly well suited to EVs and these make up the MAJORITY of the market. The minority are actually people like us car nerds, people who put feel over practicality, noise over efficiency, and will accept massive compromises to return a more "fun" or "driver oriented car". There are also a minority of private car buyers who can't charge at home AND do lots of miles regularily (and this is honestly far far fewer people than most people realise) for whom, today an EV, despite being cheaper to run, much more reliable and nicer to spend time in, for them, a EV is not yet a practical choice.
2) The "car manufacturers are scaling back their EV work" is absolute bobbins.
Yes, niche high end sports car manufactures like AML mentioned aren't going to be doing a lot of EV work (nor should they be, they sell expensive noisy trinckets to rich people wanting to show off, and they sell so few cars that do so few miles as a fleet it's absolutely irrelevant what they do), but all the major volume manufacturers are spending ever increasing amounts of money and effort on their BEVs. This is simply because they have done the "numbers" (years ago actually) and they can see which way the wind is blowing (and has been blowing for at least 5 years or more) and if they want to stay in business, they need BEV fleets.
What you will regularily hear, and unless you are an industry insider who actually works on the coalface as it were, you probably won't understand, is lots of OEMS who regularily need to pop out nice "soundbites" about their current ICE models in order not to spook not just their market (customers) but just as importantly, their Teir 1 and 2 manufacturing and logistics chain partners who they ABSOLUTELY RELY ON! Take Toyota for example, they are an enourmous employer, not just directly but indirectly when you include their whole supply chain. If they annouce "we are done with ICE" then they are in trouble, big, big trouble. They have thousands of companies and millions of people working to make them parts so that they can build say a yaris for £15k. As BEV volumes climb and ICE fall over the next 10 to 15 years, that entire ICE dominated ecosystem can slowly, and organically move to BEV based architectures in a safe, sensible, controlled and above all, sustainable way, ie in a way that allows them to make product at a competitive cost and quality.
So yes, you'll see lots of headlines from lots of CEOs and the like with big hats on saying "we are not giving up on ICE" but the truth is, ICE is dead, and has been for about 5 years. Yes a bit is still being spent on it, but compared to the monies and effort on BEV, it's a raindrop in an ocean.....
So you talked about Adrian Newey...then about Ayrton Senna's death/crash...but failed to mention that there is very dark connection...